We've been carrying on a discussion of farm layout over on the Shining Rock Software Forums which might be helpful to anyone planning farms: http://shiningrocksoftware.com/forum/discussion/3511/a-small-tweak-to-the-18x18-farm#Item_23
I'm going to do a bit more work and then post here a summary of findings on farm output.
That's awesome... we'll end up having the best posts from all the other places, here :)
+1 to nmid's comment. There could be some extensive cross-links between the two Banished-devoted sites. Anyone using this forum as their first for Banished should also check out the ShiningRock Software site. Especially pay attention to the thread mentioned by rkelly17 if you're interested in efficiently setting up farms. Not only does he show some good arrangements for farms, orchards etc..., but some of the other posts in the thread give some interesting alternatives.
But ... be sure to come back here for rkelly17's results. From what I've seen so far, they're certain to be useful.
Yeah, that discussion had me start a new town just to play around with farming. I think it is going to take me multiple towns though to figure out flexible and efficient layouts. I am hoping you guys will figure out some good layouts!
@mariesalias, be sure and post details and pics! I can hardly wait to see what you are doing.
My farming research is a bit behind as I'm working on some "historical" materials. It is slow work, but I'll do some farming research in tandem.
I just finished harvesting 1008 beans from a field farmed by one person. I admit I was lucky with the season, but that was an amazing yield.
(http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28.0;attach=64)
Here is the field just before harvesting began.
(http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28.0;attach=66)
That is a great yield!
My farmers are too lazy to do some of the larger fields alone, even though the calculator says they should be able to. Though I haven't specifically tried with just beans....
I just find a nice big flat spot and put down 15x8s on a grid. Start out with one farmer each while the area is being built up, then go to two farmers per farm once the area is established
@irrelevant How do you get by with so few farms by your fields? I always end up needing so many.
Quote from: mariesalias on June 21, 2014, 12:57:37 PM
@irrelevant How do you get by with so few farms by your fields? I always end up needing so many.
You mean barns? I don't need so many barns cause so much of the food is in houses and markets. Also, I have barns all over, not just by the farms. I have a couple of areas where the barns fill up every couple of years. Oddly enough, it is right where I have a large number of them. When they get full I just demolish them all, and all the food gets moved to the food-bare barns nearer the industrial area. I keep all the demolition panels open, and I stop them when they get down to like 5%.
edit: Just took a quick count, I've got about 90-100 barns, that's roughly one for every two farms. Since the barns aren't all right by the farms, the laborers do get a workout putting up the harvest, but I've got scads of those guys.
Yes, I meant barns. I see that you have them, just not all near your fields. Doesn't that make the productivity go down for the fields? Making the farmers walk further away to place the food in the barns, I mean.
I had forgotten that you move food around in barns like I do logs in stockpiles!
@mariesalias I'm really glad you asked that. I started to write something but I realized I didn't really know, so I spent an entire growing season watching my farms and following my farmers, instead of making new ones.
I had thought that farmers reaped and laborers came along and did the storing, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Farmers reap, and farmers store, so yes, by having the barns farther away I am slowing down the harvest. Doesn't seem to matter in a good year like I just had, but I can imagine that with an early frost in would. Going to re-assess my storage situation.
A farmer can carry 84. The optimum yield in my 8x15 farms seems to be 840, so with two farmers on a field that's 5 trips per farmer per season. I didn't follow anyone to see how much time that takes, I'll do that next year.
One thing I saw that I did not know was happening was that a farmer will store directly at the market if that is the nearest storage. I wish they would do that more!
Quote from: irrelevant on June 22, 2014, 05:10:15 AM
@mariesaliasOne thing I saw that I did not know was happening was that a farmer will store directly at the market if that is the nearest storage. I wish they would do that more!
If that's a hard and fast rule, it could lead to some interesting layouts for communities concentrating on farming. Rather than having a barn for every small group of fields, have several barns near a central market. Let the farmers store harvests in the market (if it's closest), and then let the market vendors move the excess market food out to the barns.
Quote from: salamander on June 22, 2014, 05:31:40 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on June 22, 2014, 05:10:15 AM
@mariesaliasOne thing I saw that I did not know was happening was that a farmer will store directly at the market if that is the nearest storage. I wish they would do that more!
If that's a hard and fast rule, it could lead to some interesting layouts for communities concentrating on farming. Rather than having a barn for every small group of fields, have several barns near a central market. Let the farmers store harvests in the market (if it's closest), and then let the market vendors move the excess market food out to the barns.
It could impact the harvest though because the distance to the market or centralized barn is farther than a barn adjacent to two or three fields.
Sparked by
@mariesalias' question about my barns, I've spent the past year studying my farmers activities more closely. My barn placement does result in them having long walks from their fields to storage and back, but beyond the farmers getting a good workout, there seems to be no problem with this. Getting full yields on 90% of my fields.
I can see no way to quantify efficiency of farmers in gathering. There are too many variables to even know what an optimum might be. For example, they have to stop working every little bit to go back home and get something to eat. So gathering is affected not only by the distance to storage, but also by the distance to home.
I also noticed that gathering is not the only bottleneck. At the start of the season, the farmers appear to be doing what you could call "planting." They move through their field, more or less systematically, making hoeing motions. If the farmer(s) don't get enough hoeing done by a certain time, the crop will not come in at all, or only partially.
One change I did make, I have changed my crop mix so that fully one-third is growing corn, and another third is growing beans. These seem to be the crops that grow fastest, and as long as citizens get grain (corn) and vegetables (beans) that's all they need from the fields.
Right? There's no such thing as these guys being bored with their diet, is there? As long as they're getting their 4 food groups?
At harvest time I did notice a few underperforming fields. These are easy to spot at harvest, with all the neighboring fields cleared, and the crop rotting in this one here and that one there. I didn't notice that the underperformers had anything in common, but this one field was very strange. I tracked down the farmers, and both were clear across the map. One, a woman named Herminda was "gathering resources," which in her case meant walking halfway across the map to a tailor, picking up two wool coats (intended purely for export) and carrying them back to her field. The coats weren't for her or her family, they all had warm coats.
Anyway, it took most of "autumn" for her to do this. She went to her field, hacked at it once, and then went over to a barn (right next to her field) and stored the 2 coats. She was carrying nothing else. Then she went to her nearby house to get something to eat. After that she commenced to idle in the adjacent market, then wandered back off towards downtown where the tailor is. I think she may be having an affair with the tailor who is (I'm not making this up) a 69-year-old woman named Hell.
This field's other farmer finally did show up. His house was two market circles away (there are 5 laborers living just doors away from this field). He took two hacks at the field, then headed back home to get a bite. The field yielded 252 of 840. There are 12 other fields in this market circle, all yielded 840. Both farmers have been replaced (by the game, not by me, I didn't change a thing) and are now laborers.
I wonder if Herminda's poor performance was somehow related to the fact that her co-farmer was basically a no-show for the year; she got discouraged and lost interest. It wasn't health or happiness, both are 5s.
Poking around, looking at the storage situation, has got me wondering: what is the storage capacity of a house? I've seen houses with a couple hundred storage points of stuff, and others with 400-500 points. I'm just wondering how much stuff I can push towards a market and reasonably expect to have the houses in its circle soak up?
I have noticed that farmers will place crops directly in the marketplace, as well, but there is a limit to how much they will place in there/or perhaps, rather how much the vendors will let them leave in there.
Home distance for a farmer definitely affects their production efficiency. I have noticed that since this last patch (at least) that the AI for deciding where people live seems to have changed a bit. From what I have observed in my own games, it sounds like you had some jobs for laborers near to your farms (collecting, supplies to buildings), so the game reassigned some of the nearby farmers to laborers. As a consequence, some laborers who lived farther away became farmers (which is why she went to pick up the coats, it was probably on her queue before the switch). After the laborers were no longer needs close to the farms, it reassigned them back to farms (the ones close by, that is).
I think in an effort to keep laborers from getting too far from home, the game now will assign them closer to their work assignments then before. Or rather before, I don't think they took preference over farmers and such. Before, you could reliably predict where laborers would live based on their houses not being closer to any production buildings/areas then the houses needed by their workers. I played around quite a lot with population manipulation in this way and it is definitely not as reliable a prediction as before! Because I tend to pay close attention to where my people live in regards to their occupations (especially if I have uneducated people in town), I have noticed a lot of displaced workers by laborers and builders.
It is something that needs to be taken into account when planning your town now, I believe. To minimize the effects in my town, i have started to build some extra houses (not more then I need for my population though) in all 'areas' or 'zones' of my town so there is always some nearby housing available for laborers/builders. This seems especially important while building out/up a newer section of the town. In my games I have seen farmers also displaced by gatherers, hunters, foresters, and miners; they seem to be lower down on the house priority list, maybe because they spend the whole of winter working as laborers. Interestingly enough, I have also noticed woodcutters (as well as brewers, traders, vendors, and herdsmen) displaced by these workers, as well. Blacksmiths and Teachers seem less likely to be displaced though. I am still experimenting with it though so these are strictly preliminary.
Quote from: mariesalias on June 23, 2014, 11:27:09 AM
From what I have observed in my own games, it sounds like you had some jobs for laborers near to your farms (collecting, supplies to buildings), so the game reassigned some of the nearby farmers to laborers. As a consequence, some laborers who lived farther away became farmers (which is why she went to pick up the coats, it was probably on her queue before the switch). After the laborers were no longer needs close to the farms, it reassigned them back to farms (the ones close by, that is).
Looking back, I expect this is absolutely what happened.
Quote from: mariesalias on June 23, 2014, 11:27:09 AM
I think in an effort to keep laborers from getting too far from home, the game now will assign them closer to their work assignments then before. Or rather before, I don't think they took preference over farmers and such. Before, you could reliably predict where laborers would live based on their houses not being closer to any production buildings/areas then the houses needed by their workers. I played around quite a lot with population manipulation in this way and it is definitely not as reliable a prediction as before! Because I tend to pay close attention to where my people live in regards to their occupations (especially if I have uneducated people in town), I have noticed a lot of displaced workers by laborers and builders.
It is something that needs to be taken into account when planning your town now, I believe. To minimize the effects in my town, i have started to build some extra houses (not more then I need for my population though) in all 'areas' or 'zones' of my town so there is always some nearby housing available for laborers/builders. This seems especially important while building out/up a newer section of the town. In my games I have seen farmers also displaced by gatherers, hunters, foresters, and miners; they seem to be lower down on the house priority list, maybe because they spend the whole of winter working as laborers. Interestingly enough, I have also noticed woodcutters (as well as brewers, traders, vendors, and herdsmen) displaced by these workers, as well. Blacksmiths and Teachers seem less likely to be displaced though. I am still experimenting with it though so these are strictly preliminary.
Definitely will be sure to have more "extra" houses in every market circle for laborers. I had already been doing this, but apparently I was not being generous enough.
Those gatherers and foresters always do seem to grab the best houses, don't they? ;)
I suspect that
@mariesalias is basically correct in her analysis. I too used to build a few houses spread around not near any specific job site, but that doesn't seem to be doing it any more. It could well be the changed laborer behavior in 1.0.3. In my 500 farmers town I'm noticing that houses that I assumed would be occupied by farmers end up with builders and laborers--at least until building has died down in that sector. I'm starting to add in extra houses as well when I start a new area. I've noticed the same phenomenon with housing for miners and stone cutters where you need 5-8 houses for the workers (sometimes I only post 10 workers to a mine or quarry). People you would think would be mining or cutting stone end up building or laboring.
I'm still on 1.0.0 and I'm getting this a lot. Most folks are located pretty well, but there are some here and there, particularly builders but also some farmers, who have to make ungodly treks to reach their work assignments.
I'm thinking that maybe when you reach a certain pop size, the job/house assignment engine starts to get overwhelmed.
@irrelevant, I think you are right. Not sure if Luke ever intended for every corner of a large map to be filled. Not really a "city builder", more like a many small villages builder.
Just thought I would post this picture to remind everyone that a late frost in Spring can be as damaging as an early frost in Autumn. Note the 9X9 wheat and bean fields to the right. They were built several years before the picture and so the farmers were out in Early Spring to plant and lost half the crop to a late frost. The bean field to the left finished building in Spring, so the farmers did not get out planting until after the frost. The lesson I learned from this was balance early crops which are susceptible to late frosts but not so much early frosts with late crops which are susceptible to early frosts but not so much to late frosts. Actually the main learning point was play on mild climate, not harsh. ;D
@rkelly17 -- That's a very good point. In fact, it seems that late frosts early in the growing season could potentially be more harmful than early frosts late in the growing season. It depends on whether farmers will re-plant in the spring season (early, middle or late) to replace plants lost to frost. Has anyone seen anything to suggest that farmers will do this in the spring?
Quote from: rkelly17 on June 25, 2014, 08:14:19 AM
Just thought I would post this picture to remind everyone that a late frost in Spring can be as damaging as an early frost in Autumn. Note the 9X9 wheat and bean fields to the right. They were built several years before the picture and so the farmers were out in Early Spring to plant and lost half the crop to a late frost. The bean field to the left finished building in Spring, so the farmers did not get out planting until after the frost. The lesson I learned from this was balance early crops which are susceptible to late frosts but not so much early frosts with late crops which are susceptible to early frosts but not so much to late frosts. Actually the main learning point was play on mild climate, not harsh. ;D
So has anyone actually done any research on growing seasons for the various crops? I have some impressions, eg. beans start early and finish fast, pumpkins start later and finish slow, etc, but I haven't seen anything out there anyplace that attempts to quantify.
Quote from: irrelevant on June 25, 2014, 08:46:52 AM
So has anyone actually done any research on growing seasons for the various crops? I have some impressions, eg. beans start early and finish fast, pumpkins start later and finish slow, etc, but I haven't seen anything out there anyplace that attempts to quantify.
There is definitely a list somewhere as I have seen it posted up on the SR forum before.
I did find this. Accurate? Who can say....
http://www.reddit.com/r/Banished/comments/1z9cms/did_some_science_regarding_farms/
Quote from: salamander on June 25, 2014, 08:33:06 AM
@rkelly17 -- That's a very good point. In fact, it seems that late frosts early in the growing season could potentially be more harmful than early frosts late in the growing season. It depends on whether farmers will re-plant in the spring season (early, middle or late) to replace plants lost to frost. Has anyone seen anything to suggest that farmers will do this in the spring?
I have never seen farmers go out and replant, but I wouldn't want to say they never do. When I've played on harsh climate (only when I absolutely have to) I've seen a lot of half fields in Summer.
Quote from: irrelevant on June 25, 2014, 05:33:58 PM
I did find this. Accurate? Who can say....
http://www.reddit.com/r/Banished/comments/1z9cms/did_some_science_regarding_farms/
The reddit post is interesting. I wish the poster had said which climate s/he used.
If that reddit link (or any other) is found to be accurate, it might be useful to repeat the information here in the tips&tricks section, with credits to the original. That way, the information will still be available if the link dies.
Since we clearly have some researchers here, this forum might as well become the complete information source for Banished. :D
btw
@rkelly17 i really love what you were doing with these 18x18. it reminds me a month ago i was trying to do .... some ranchs. 1 or 2 houses, a barn, a crop or an orchard, or a pasture. it is there after to have spent a night or 2, i decided to try to push 'fences' as suggestions :)
i like alot the idea.