That Good Ole Spreadsheet Itch... It Got Me!

[MarkAnthony]

Good morning, good evening wherever you are.

It's 2:20 AM here and I was just tinkering around in a fresh game doing nothing really. I wasn't in the mood to play Ambertown so late, nor start a new game. I just loaded a new game up and sat there... and sat there, and sat there some more.  And then it happened!    I got that itch!  Hehe

Well that didn't take very long at all either. It was only two weeks ago as of this post date that I bought Banished! Usually it takes me several weeks or a couple of months of playing a game before I start brainstorming on how to transfer the game I am playing, or the characters in a game I am playing and putting it all into a spreadsheet.

I don't have the "inside information" that our Banished modders do about all the stuff in the game nor the mechanics of it all, so I don't know exactly what kind of spreadsheet I can make for Banished that would be useful to everyone. One day I am hoping they will share some of that information with me and take time with me to discuss some of it.   --- But I do have an idea...

Usually when I make spreadsheets for the games I play, they start out being only for me and not shared publicly. Generally I start out by keeping track of all my characters and everything about them on a Character Sheet. If they take up crafting in game then I start a crafting section within my spreadsheet. The scope of these spreadsheets of mine grow quite enormous over time encompassing many major aspects or categories of the game. Such examples would be: Character Creation (race & class combos with starting stats and etc,.); Crafting Calculators for every crafting type in game such as Tailors, Armorers, Weaponsmiths, Provisioners (food), Herbalists and so on; Loot Lists for various Dungeons and Boss kills; Achievements; Guilds; Character Sheets; Housing; and on and on depending on what's available in the game I'm playing. 

EDIT: OMG!!! How could I have forgotten to mention QUESTS?!?!  The Quests section of my spreadsheet is often as huge as the crafting section! ... Anyhow...

Take crafting for example: I will scour the internet for every single crafting recipe possible in game, every type of crafting material, every location possible to get that material in game such as every vendor far and wide in towns or deep down in dungeons or in hidden away areas and all the costs or faction needed to get such materials, or what time of year to get them and so on and so forth. After all that is gathered and entered into my spreadsheet I end up making a "Crafting Calculator". I tell it everything I want to craft for my character and it will spit out all the materials I need to get, where I have to go to get them, how much it will all cost and all the stats that my character will gain by wearing that new gear! Pretty cool stuff really!

After my spreadsheet grows to include so much I can't help but feel great about it and proud of all I have done with it. It is only then -  when it has my "Mark of Approval" that I start telling friends and guild mates in game about it and then starting a blog for it and upload it and give out the download links for it. And for as long as I play the game I am constantly updating them and those updates are also passed on and made available. I will do this for whatever Banished spreadsheets I make too.

FYI: The games I did this for were EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Vanguard and EverQuest II.  Those are also in the order in which I played those MMO's.

So, unfortunately Banished doesn't really have this kind of information stuffed in a major website or wiki somewhere (think WowHead, Allakhazam, Curse, Game Wikia etc.) So getting the type of information I would desire for this spreadsheet would not be easy for me on my own. I would hope in time that the modders here would contribute and help. But to get them to help I think would require more than just a simple asking of words. I think maybe if I showed them a sample of what I can do with a spreadsheet that maybe it would entice them to see the potential of what more can be done.

So as I said above, I have an idea for a spreadsheet that I'll begin with. I already spent a bit of time gathering some basic info for it this evening which, I must say... really, really scratched that itch and I am all giggity about it!  Rofl      Now I will say, this isn't something I actually see being very useful to most Banished players (other than as a toy to mess around with) but I do imagine a few people might find a way to use it. We'll see...  I can't say much more without giving it away. 

Give me a week or three and I should have something presentable.

It's 3:15 AM - now I seriously need to get to bed!  *yawns*

Goodnight!

(Actually, see you in a couple of hours -- my darn cats always wake me up at the crack of dawn by going ape-shit!)
Oh lookie! It's 3:40 AM now!  *sighs*                   

[Gatherer]

I'm sure any info you have to offer would be greatly appreciated by the community.

One thing to consider though, modders tend to assign different numbers to production chains. It all depends on which mod is above the other and if the resources have identical names within the files.

[Abandoned]

I would hope in time that the modders here would contribute and help. But to get them to help I think would require more than just a simple asking of words. I think maybe if I showed them a sample of what I can do with a spreadsheet that maybe it would entice them to see the potential of what more can be done.
         

Good luck with that LOL, In case you haven't notices yet, WOB has very few modders and they are very busy making us new mods and have very long to-do list.  There is a lot of information on this site which you can find by spending time doing a lot of searches and reading. 

[Abandoned]

@galensgranny I believe it was who made a very nice spreadsheet "banished tailors and smiths" showing the different buildings and requirement from different mods - that is, which tailors use what textiles and what smiths make what tools.  I did a search but was not able to locate the post or zip file.

I hope someone else will know its location and post the link here. 

[MarkAnthony]

Good morning everyone,

I got the day off here but will probably end up taking a nap later on; thank you cats! 

Now this would be waaaaay down the road but imagine this...

Though this "idea" would be hugely ambitious if not equally challenging and difficult how about a "Mod Calculator" or something that would contain every piece of data a mod uses to make itself work with the game (hidden and password protected for my use only to build the spreadsheet)? This data is collected from the more popular mods (those mods with whom their authors are participating) and once entered, a player can checkmark which mods they would like to install and the order in which they intend to place them and the "Mod Calculator" would do it's thing and then tell you what parts of the mods conflict with one another in that particular order. Does this sound useful, perhaps "neato" even? 
Say for example:

   
• RK Editor Choice v1.3.1
• MarkAnthony's Super Duper Mod
• @Gatherer 's Exotic Food Items
• @Abandoned 's Wellness Center and Day Spa

Those are the mods that a person has chosen to use and the order they think they should be listed in the game. They select those mods in the "Mod Calculator" via drop-down menus in the spreadsheet (ordered in game by the order in which they are selected in the spreadsheet) and then the "Mod Calculator" would indicate:

   
• The total number of places/parts/files etc,. that are in conflict with one another based on the chosen mod order
• Show which file/value/chain/etc is at issue (if the mod author allows their data to be displayed publicly.)

The results section would go on to say:

   
• Given the mod selection and order you have chosen these are all the things you will see added to your game map:

   
• Five new map terrains (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• Six new starting conditions (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• Twelve new production chains (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• Forty-six new building designs  (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• Seventy-eight new decorations (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• Eighteen new resources (listed for you to see and what mod it came from)
• and so on...

   
• Given the mod selection and order you have chosen these are all the things you will NOT see added to your game map:

   
• MarkAnthony's Super Duper Mod's Hobbit-style homes
• MarkAnthony's Super Duper Mod's "second breakfast" production chain
• @Gatherer 's Exotic Food Items Delicious Rabbit Stew
• @Gatherer 's Exotic Food Items Curry Flavored Churros

In the part of the results that showed what will NOT be seen in game, nothing about RK Editor Choice was listed because it was the first mod (on top) and nothing about @Abandoned 's Wellness Center and Day Spa was listed because it was fully included without conflict.

Maybe there could also be an option to choose the same mods but in a different order and it could then show a comparison between the results of Mod Order 1 and Mod Order 2 then you can decide for yourself which Mod Order to use, such as: "Well... I reaaally wanted to see my Banies in Hobbit-style homes but I dunno, I bet my Banies would love churros!!!!"

Get what I mean? I mean there's no telling what else can be created if the mod authors made available to me their file data. Imagine the possibilities!

ROFL  ... that is just an example of something having mod data could provide the players of Banished. And like I said that would be waaaaay down the road and a huge endeavor; but I'm just spit-balling here.


               

[brads3]

wait a minute. YOU WANT TO REPPLACE ME WITH A PROGRAM?? it will figure out mod order and conflicts for me and solve ALL the issues i have spent years figuring out? try using a bullet and shoot me it would be cheaper and easier for you.

     you went from a spreadsheet to a program. i doubt it can be done. too many variables,lines of coding,and possable combinations.we dont even have the entire game program. even with all the super modders there are mysteries we don't understand yet.

spreadsheet is 1 thing. beyond that i think you are trying to do the impossable.

[kid1293]

Isn't such a spreadsheet a way to kill the fun off exploring limits?
Both your own limits and the limits of the game engine.

[Nilla]

This sounds like a HUGE mission. Very useful but I´m not sure that it´s possible to make. I doubt that it´s possible to give these conflict "things" some kind of value that can be processed in an Excel sheet. But maybe I´m wrong. You seem to have a large experience in such things so maybe you can do it.

I have seen different production spreadsheets. Necora add them to his mods, CC has one. It simply tells how much raw material is needed to produce a certain item, the speed of production, trade values and such things.

I have also tried to use Excel to describe this game. I´ve made some simple population "simulations". A calculation of how fast a settlement can grow in theory with educated, uneducated, with and without nomads and for different house building speed. Nothing very complicated.

[MarkAnthony]

wait a minute. YOU WANT TO REPPLACE ME....

Though I barely know any of you here, no of course not @brads3 !  lol   

And no, my coding days are super far behind me in the past, my brain (read: memory) isn't that great anymore. The computer languages I learned how to use back in the day were: Basic, and whatever Commodore 64 used (Basic I guess?); then Microsoft Basic while in junior college; then while I attended DeVry Institute (before they became accredited and called themselves DeVry Institute of Technology) I learned Pascal, Fortran, COBOL, Assembly and something else.

Then after I got into online gaming in 2000 I taught myself HTML, XML, LUA, a tiny bit of JavaScript and that was about it I think for building websites and making custom mods and addons for Dark Age of Camelot and World of Warcraft. When I got to JavaScript I realized coding has gotten much more complex than what my memory could handle anymore... or my attention span for that matter. Nah, I couldn't write a program or build a website anymore if my life depended on it - my brain is too mushy now rofl! 

We need you brads3! 


And no... I'm not talking about digging into game code or anything like that. I wasn't even thinking it'd get anywhere near that, hell I wasn't even thinking about game code! Spreadsheets = data and data manipulation, that's all I wanted to play around with.  Like I said in my very first post in this thread, I don't have all the "inside information" that you modders do about the game. So I don't actually know what type of data even exists that modders even have access to or use. I hear you all discuss things like limits, tags, values and yadda, yadda. That's the stuff I am referring to using and whatever else there is. A simple example of what I mean is let's say:

   
• Banished (core game) defines the animal3 variable as - "Cattle"
• RK Editor Choice defines the animal3 variable as - "Moo Cow"
• Brads3's Amazing Mod defines the animal3 variable as - "Highland Cattle"

So if we installed RK Editor Choice and Brads3 Amazing Mod in the order listed above, RK Editor Choice would override the core game's animal3 value simply by being installed, but since Brads3's Amazing Mod is ordered below RK Editor Choice - "Moo Cow" is what we will see the cattle in game labeled as. That's all I am getting at in terms of the functionality of the spreadsheet - simple/complex comparisons between various parts of data that mods use whether it be names, labels, values, or whatever. If different mods are using different values for the same data item then that is a conflict and that is what will be displayed in the spreadsheet. I mean that was the general idea anyhow; not a full blown program or whatever that I couldn't even possibly write anymore.

Isn't such a spreadsheet a way to kill the fun off exploring limits?
Both your own limits and the limits of the game engine.

Hi @kid1293

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by exploring limits. I'm not talking about my spreadsheet using theorycraft like those gamers at Elitist Jerks website do. So I'm not building such tools into the spreadsheet that will calculate the optimal distance for a building in Banished or the maximum number of fish you will get with three fisherman instead of four, or what really is the best crop field size for maximum yield? That's theorycraft and that uses some possibly complicated math (at least to me anyhow).

Nahhh, my goals for this spreadsheet were something much more basic, perhaps even more useful and or user friendly such as:

With these mods installed in this order you can have these pretty little houses, and these fancy decorations, and this awesome new job/profession called Rock Climbing but you won't get "Highland Cattle" because they will instead be called "Moo Cows" because that's the way RedKetchup likes it!  lol


As difficult as it may be to make this work in a spreadsheet, this is as simple as my idea is. Nothing to do with game code, nothing to do with theorycrafting, nothing to compromise anyone's integrity   ... just lists... and tables.... and neatly color schemed charts!  lol
               

[kid1293]

  Okay, we will have to give our opinion on a finished spreadsheet.
Stupid to argue over ideas. Sorry. Continue

[MarkAnthony]

Thank you Sir.  lol

[moonbelf]

Okay, we will have to give our opinion on a finished spreadsheet.
Stupid to argue over ideas. Sorry. Continue

@kid1293 Agreed. @MarkAnthony  what you plan to do still sounds very time consuming and fairly complex. And how you plan to get so many different mods into it still baffles me, but I'm curious to see what you come up with and how useful it actually will be.

[MarkAnthony]

This sounds like a HUGE mission. Very useful but I´m not sure that it´s possible to make. I doubt that it´s possible to give these conflict "things" some kind of value that can be processed in an Excel sheet. But maybe I´m wrong. You seem to have a large experience in such things so maybe you can do it.

Hi @Nilla

Without a doubt, that last example I gave as something a spreadsheet might be able to do, was just that... an idea or dream as it were and yes it would be a MASSIVE mission to take on! But I like challenges... errmm... until they become too challenging that is! LOL  <-- That logic there is something like, "It's NICE to be nice, to the nice!

Anyways, yeah - wouldn't even WANT to do any kind of theorycrafting! Theorycraft hurts my head!     

I'm just shooting for a low-ceiling as it were, not for the stars but for something a bit more obtainable (maybe).  Last night when I started this thread I came up with a simple but neat idea that I will start with and share with everyone here just so you all can see how I make my spreadsheets.  As I said it will probably be considered more of a toy than an actual tool to use in game but who knows! It could morph into something more.  And for the time being it will be based on Banished vanilla, not modded.

Though I do secretly hope that RedKetchup will see the potential and let me use his RKEC data to do the same type of thing, but for his mod only!  I mean, I do recall him saying somewhere that he never had the time but would have liked to have a wiki or spreadsheet made for his stuff - and I hope to do that with his blessing and support.

But first thing, first. Let me build and put out that first itch/idea I had. Depending on how well received it is... or isn't, will determine how much further I attempt to go (publicly anyhow).

You all seem to contribute to this Banished community in various ways; be it with those awesome mods, your helpful advice, tips and tricks, or just general "Atta' boy" pat's on the back.  I would like to contribute to this community too; and though my days of building websites and coding user interface addons and mods are behind me, my love of spreadsheets live on and I always got complimented on them in the past - so I'd like to give something back too to the community and game I have adopted.

[Gatherer]

Nahhh, my goals for this spreadsheet were something much more basic, perhaps even more useful and or user friendly such as:

With these mods installed in this order you can have these pretty little houses, and these fancy decorations, and this awesome new job/profession called Rock Climbing but you won't get "Highland Cattle" because they will instead be called "Moo Cows" because that's the way RedKetchup likes it!  lol

This is something I'd be interested in. I think it would work well with the Mod Manager.

[MarkAnthony]

@MarkAnthony  what you plan to do still sounds very time consuming and fairly complex. And how you plan to get so many different mods into it still baffles me, but I'm curious to see what you come up with and how useful it actually will be.

Thanks @moonbelf

Oh for sure it will be time consuming, there's no question about it! When I played those other games I mentioned in my first post of this thread and I made my spreadsheets for them, those took an awful lot of time as well - so I expect that and welcome it even. When I really get nose-deep into building the spreadsheet up from nothing to something exciting I get tunnel vision and just go at it all the more. I love it!  Often times, depending on how burned out I got from those games I played - working on the spreadsheets and communicating with the fans of my addons and spreadsheets ended up being tons more fun for me.

And as to how would I get so many mod authors to participate? Yeah, well... lol  I haven't exactly gotten that far yet and wouldn't even have a clue if I did get to that point. My second post in this thread, the "...waaaay down the road but imagine this.." post of mine was just a "BIG IDEA" that popped into my head to get myself pumped up and to get you all excited about the possibilities. It's highly probable that that "BIG IDEA" will never see the light of day; in fact I'm truly expecting it not too but it was a lot of fun for me to think about.

No worries though.  I still got my original idea for Banished (vanilla) planned (Let's call it "The Toy") and I will pursue that as far as I can take it. Hopefully, if I am lucky it will go from a simple "Character Sheet" (as in other games) to a full-blown massive work of art like my spreadsheets for the other games ended up being; i.e. starting simple and simply expanding upon it over time as my experience with the game grows.