Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

[brads3]

but i ain't rude. i am just nutz.

[Nilla]

Nilla,i think part of the issue with storage may be that we players see amounts and the game and coding reads by weight. can you tell how many logs a vendor with a wheelbarrow will haul?  what amounts are you getting with the mixed material cart? that fertilizer has messed with you a lot.not sure how to conquer that unless you had a barn or manure pit that just stored the fertilizer.

The chart with logs is full (99%) and holds 135 logs. The chart for misc holds 231 flowers, that's only 15%. But I don't have issues. They both work well in their different ways. First as I built them,I only let a vendor work at each for a short time. Now when I got more people, I let the vendor in the woodchart work all the time, the misc. only occasionally (it's closed now). I can't say, if it's worth the effort, to have one vendor working with logs for one woodcutter all the time. But if you have a lot of laborers, why not. There's always a lot of logs in the chart as I look,so the woodcutter has a comfortable work. Doesn't need many extra steps.

I have "conquered" to my Bannis wish of carry dung and clay around. I've built a greenhouse close to the glass- and brickmaker and will soon build a second brickmaker in the stable area. I don't need that many bricks/rooftiles yet, but at least I can change the production to the site, where the clay is at the moment. At least these are my thoughts.

I don't live in the arctic, not even in the sub arctic region. It's @brads3 who's exaggerating things. Even if we do have winters, this year even quite long, it's only about every 5th year, that our lake has ice, thick enough to walk on and snow has also became spare the last couple of decades.

Anyway, I also make my own challenges, more or less in every game. Even if many people find Banished a simple game, you can always find something interesting. Mine are rarely in the area "design". I have no talent for that and get bored after some time. More things like; without farming, trade, schools....... or as much, as fast..... often using small maps. And of cause, I do a lot of testing, to find out how new things work.

And @Denis de la Rive you can talk about your formulas here or make a thread of your own. I don't mind eather of it.

but i ain't rude. i am just nutz.

I din´t say that! 

[brads3]

Nilla,throw me a pic of the cart with the flowers and the menu.please.

[RedKetchup]

wow alot of discussion whikle i was sleeping.... / my hockey game to watch ^^

i need to go read all this again lol.

i just pop up to say, there is a big difference of size between a big tree trunk and a little flower ^^
i know the game work with weight but not size....

[Denis de la Rive]

Each resource has a weight, I don't remember the exact number for logs, (it is something defined in the resource file, while the storage number is a function of a building, including houses), but if flowers is one then you can store a lot more of that, than something that takes 10 of storage for one unit. Knowing how much storage an item takes is useful when planning what you need build. If storage size needs to be balanced, Red can easily change his numbers so they store a given number of something, but you have to be careful with flags, some include things that can have very different weight values.

I understand you know how to create your own challenges, but many players don't and often expect mod makers to this for them, I was mostly writing to them, again. 

Considering how the villagers want to scatter goods in all storage spaces, (something I believe is hard coded), it may be better to have specialized storage, (with a vendor) with more than one flag so all your production can be improved. I agree that having one vendor for each production site is not very good, you can have one that get logs, iron ore and other resources for an industrial cluster. That way you only add one person to 3 or 4 production sites. As an industrialist I have often done this, and it works very well.

When we consider Red's new carts, having only one flag is also useful since it can supply several buildings of the same type creating the possibility of making a factory setting for mass production. In smaller towns less useful, but with larger ones almost a necessity for things like tools, and clothing.

I think having buildings that use the same resource flags in the same area is something very interesting, but it means you need to plan for it as your village grows. If you have not accounted for such a zone, then a good old fashion urban renewal project can fix that easily.

Just wondering, do you think Red would like help creating documentation like the spreadsheets that are available for CC, I could do that if its needed.

Moi c'est la NFL, mais, c'est fini.

Edit: I DL the mod kit, and Red's resources, wood, (file name for logs), has a weight of 11, and flowers 1.

[Nilla]

Of cause I know all these things about the weight. Of cause it makes sense, that a chart of a special size can hold more flowers than logs. I only wanted to say, that this also makes the use of these  charts different, depending on its content. It's not a bad thing. You need to use your brain. That's always good.

Considering how the villagers want to scatter goods in all storage spaces, (something I believe is hard coded), it may be better to have specialized storage, (with a vendor) with more than one flag so all your production can be improved. I agree that having one vendor for each production site is not very good, you can have one that get logs, iron ore and other resources for an industrial cluster. That way you only add one person to 3 or 4 production sites. As an industrialist I have often done this, and it works very well.

Yes, these stores might be useful, if they are combining the right flags, like the store for raw material from this mod, containing logs, iron and minerals. In my last game I located it together with woodchopper, lumbermill, foundry and a couple of blacksmiths. The same here, (see my last picture) even if I have decided not to produce any more tools (unless it's an emergency). But of cause one main goal in this game is to test the charts. Normally the store would have been enough in this area but I also built the chart on the place, I find it makes the most sense. There will be more charts on this map, for sure; good and bad located. I have some thoughts, what I want to try out. I'll let you know the results.

For this kind of production a vendor store works very well. But this combining of flags and material in different markets/stores with vendors might also bring problems, if you're not careful which flags are combined. You can follow my struggle with thatch, dung, clay and sand in this thread (and that's not even a combination of flags). You must also be well aware of the fact; that vendors don't steal from eachother. Material that once lands in one of these stores, stay there until it is consumed.

Just wondering, do you think Red would like help creating documentation like the spreadsheets that are available for CC, I could do that if its needed. 

Don't ask me, ask him.

But we can always ask ourselves; to what purpose? I've seen your CC sheet but not really used it. A brief look at it, just confirmed, what I self found out in my usual "looking at the menu" way. I used the sheet from Necora, as I tested his mods, but that was because his menus didn't show the raw material and I had to find out the "recipe" to test the production. Personally, if there was such a sheet to the mods I test, I don't think, I would use it, because it would take away some of my fun. It's a part of my playing; I always look in the menus, and my brain make some calculations more or less without my own conscious, sounds weird but maybe someone can understand what I mean. 

To my game. I made a lot of screenshots yesterday. I'll show you some.

First picture

This dock storage spot seems to store everything. What are your thoughts here, @RedKetchup? My thought as I built it, was to have a small store close to the fisherman, where he could get rid of his catch as easy as possible. I don't really want it full of fertilizer (!) ore and wool, it's too small for that.

Second picture

My first surrender to the affinity of my Bannis to carry around the dung; a greenhouse as close to the material piles for clay and sand as possible.

Third picture

It looks a bit weird, when there's a fire at the house directly at the water well and the long line of people, get water in the lake, to put it out. (I don't really mind. It was only a funny sight, I wanted to show)

You can also see that the menus for the fences are open. (Believe it or not! ) I always find this stage of the game; not boring, that's too much, but we can say; less interesting. The nice start up is done, the settlement is small and efficient, the population grows slowly, the stores use to grow much faster. Normally I use to take some nomads to "brighten things up"   but since I put so much effort in getting every child educated at the beginning, I will not add uneducated now. I also want to test the changes in the production, and that becomes unreliable with some uneducated. So I thought, this is the point, when other people start to decorate their towns, so I looked at the fences and also made some seedlings.

To the seedlings: I feel a bit pity for those, who used to rely on seedlings for export. They are pretty useless for that purpose now.

To the fences: I wanted to build a fence between the canal and the small houses at the beginning of it. You can see these buildings on my first two pictures. The Bannis don't want their children to fall into the canal. But they have to go on and keep a close eye on them, because I failed. Unfortunately there's no room for the normal fence (road and canal tiles) and if I build the ghosted fence, it looked so stupid, when people took a short cut through it, that I demolished it again. I also tried a combination of normal and ghosted fences, but that didn't work either, the fence parts are located on different places of the tile and I can't combine them in a way that looks good. I have no big experience here, does anyone know how to make it? (red marks on the first picture) (My own advice would be; not to build that tight, if you want to decorate, but that's too late here)

It's also a bit weird, that the normal fence costs 2 lumber to build, the ghosted fence nothing.

Fourth picture

This is for @brads3. The menu of the chart for miscellaneous. I also took the opportunity to show the content in my trading port. It looks, as if I trade a lot. The truth is; I don't. I've decided to buy tools. The main reason, is to get rid of the perfume in a way that make sense. Sometimes I buy some extra logs, a few stones or some clay; using perfume as payment. I buy a few apples, just to be able to produce some pie to put in the trading port and buy more apples. Stupid? Yes! 

But I´m proud, that i thought about not hiding the nice store sign with a big balcony on the second floor.

Fifth picture

My second surrender to my Bannis; the kiln in the greenhouse area.

Sixth picture

Industrial area, very much asleep.

Edit: I´ve changed the  second picture

[RedKetchup]

cant really control your bannies hehe
as i often said , 20 times, if we could link the resource itself instead the flag.... like Caesar IV stockpiles.... that would be the paradise LOL

Denis:
if you want to make a spreadsheet ... go ahead ^^ just say what you need

about your canal dock and fertilizer... it seems to be the closest storage place. i think thats ok. your cart vendors can go get them if need those. thats still close(near)


about water well, they cant be used for firefighting. i tried, if i put both feature in same time(produce a resource + firefighting), it crash asap i lay it down on the ground.


edit:
btw tommorow i ll read everything back and do a huge post to answer all yesterday discussion

[brads3]

the dock storage is useful for the trade post to unload items that you buy from merchants.i actually am using it to store lumber from NECORA's sawmill.the quicker the trade post is unloaded ,the sooner he can restock supplies to trade out.
   how is the space in the markets? is it working reasonable to you or are they filling to quickly?

[Denis de la Rive]

Some more wonderful images. I have seen strange things in Banished before when it comes to fire fighting, we just don't know how the villagers choose their water source, and recently it was discovered that certain other functions are used. Have you seen that the sand pit in kid's granny park was used as a water source? Its very funny.

I think what you are doing with storage is most likely the best solution, since as Red wrote, you have to use flags. Even if you try to make flags with only one resource, you will have compatibility problems, and we all know Red want a maximum of compatibility.

About making documents: it could be a spread sheet, it could be a wiki like list with images, about as technical as you want. What I have discovered with CC is that it helps answer many questions that can plague a designer, taking up valuable design and graphics time. Some players like to micro-manage, but lack your skill, others are obsessed with numbers and want to call anything they don't understand a bug. I have helped many players who could simply have looked at a chart to get the answer to a question.

It can also help both the designer and the testers, if they have the coded numbers, that way you can estimate better the impact of things like distance. For a designer it can be a quick reference to the exact numbers, when a question of balance is examined, or you want to look at something, without opening the rsc files.

Finally it can help less skilled players understand things like storage flags, production chains, and other factors like fuel usage. This could also help to balance the difficulty, (interest for you, but not for everyone), with accessibility to wider group of players.

Documentation in written form can also explain how production chains work, what buildings you should build, and what are the special features of a mod are. We have here a mod that is growing and is far more complex than a few extra houses, or copies of vanilla buildings. As this is a WIP, it has to be a living document that evolves so changes can be added as they are made.

I will PM you later this week, (going to the doctor today), Red and see what we can come up with. 

About seedlings, I think that we don't need them as a trading cheat like they were before, we have some very nice trading options, that were not available when the original version was made, I also remember Red's books. 

Looking at your image, I don't think a fence will fit. I agree that having people walk trough a fence is not visually pleasing, I would have done the same thing. I think ghost structures not needing resources, or building time, makes it easier to place them where the villagers can't go, or can get stuck, its a necessary evil for certain decorations. Otherwise it calls to those who are too cheep to use decorative items if they cost resources. They are possibly technical reasons too.

Have you tried a edible/protein flag storage near your fisherman?

[Gatherer]

About ghosted fences...I like to combine them with Necora's empty tiles mod. It's a nice workaround.

[Nilla]

about your canal dock and fertilizer... it seems to be the closest storage place. i think that's OK. your cart vendors can go get them if need those. that's still close(near)

No, there are closer stores to the stables. But there aren't many stores where the Bannis can store fertilizer. So this one makes them very happy!  I have been very careful and only built specialized stockpiles, so except this dock, there are only a pile and a chart close to the kiln and glassworks, who also need materials and the same close to the stables/greenhouses. If I clear land I sometimes build a general stockpile close, to make it easier. If I forget to demolish this pile, fertilizer is stored there after a short time, even if it's far away. Not this much but always some.

the dock storage is useful for the trade post to unload items that you buy from merchants.

Sounds like an excellent idea...............if not the dock is full of dung. 

Sorry guys, if I'm giving the impression, that I'm very annoyed about this difficult fertilizer. But the truth is; I'm rather amused. First I find it funny, that it's just dung. It wouldn't have been the same, if this had been beans or lumber. Second I like, when not everything goes smooth without problems to solve. The fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain works good, even with these minor problems.

 

how is the space in the markets? is it working reasonable to you or are they filling to quickly?

Which markets do you mean? All I use work very well. Unless I've closed them, there's a lot of goods; the right goods. They fill fast. I have a lot of small stores, mostly with one vendor. At a few, with many houses around there are 2 or 3.

Thanks @Denis de la Rive; The pictures are beautiful because the buildings are beautiful, I build with focus on efficiency, not design, where I have no skills. But maybe efficiency, has a beauty of its own.

And yes, I've seen the sand used for firefighting.

So, if you two are making some kind of documentation and I can help, just say what I can do.

Have you tried a edible/protein flag storage near your fisherman?

I don't think there are any specialized food stores in this mod, and that's good. I wouldn't have used them anyway. Stores with only one category of food are sources for bad health, especially those with vendors. A Banni who lives close to such a store, more or less only gets this one food category. I want to see my fishermen fishing, not on the road on their way to the herbalist. 

About ghosted fences...I like to combine them with Necora's empty tiles mod. It's a nice workaround.

I need some explanation.

[irrelevant]

I think one log weighs 11, in vanilla anyway. Watch a chopper, he'll pick 9 logs to take to his workplace.

[Gatherer]

@Nilla

On your last pic I see 2 tiles available for Bannies to walk. The road tile in front of the houses and the tile on the side of the canal. If it was me and I wanted to build a fence I'd either use a regular fence on the side of the canal or a ghosted fence and then placed Necora's empty non walkable tile on the same tiles. Except on those leading to the fishing and storage docks and the bridge.

But I don't think that a fence on the canal is really necessary. You're not building a town in Australia, right? (Aussies are crazy with their health and safety regs). Think of it like Amsterdam where they treat you as an adult...Is your bike wet? Well, you're on the wrong side of the canal mate.

[RedKetchup]

the difference about ghosted and non ghosted fences and the fact one cost nothing while the other cost something.....

the thing is when you make something ghosted, it is the fact it needs 'to have no tiles to belong to', so since there is nowhere the bannies can drop the "2 lumber" because it doesnt have a specific tile, then the ghosted fence doesnt get its material and doesnt get built. it need to be "instant" as you click on the ground, with no cost, with no work.

or at least i didnt found a way to do it ^^

[Gatherer]

MegaMod Deco Pack has some ghosted items that require building material.