World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on May 02, 2018, 01:21:16 PM

Title: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 02, 2018, 01:21:16 PM
Back on track! :)

I started a new game this afternoon. Normally, I play in the evening. The next day, I take a look at the screenshots, I made the night before and write a little (or often more  :-[ ) about it. I like it that way. It's become a way of playing this game. But I write here now, because I don't understand the happiness system. Maybe I just need some more instructions, maybe some of the other mods I use interfere somehow or maybe there's some other bug. Anyhow; I see no effect on the happiness at all. No matter what. But I'll start from the beginning.

First picture

Map, setting and mods.

I choose the new starting option "trapper". Just because it's new. One question; why start with a trapper cabin? On this small lake map, the location is far from good. I would have preferred, that there would be traps from the start, but the player is free to place a trapper cabin on a suitable place. OK, normally you will probably not use a small lake map for a trapper start but here I want to combine the North and the jetties and also want some plausible reason to settle on the lake: no more land to expand on.

Second picture


Of course, the happiness system is one new interesting thing to check out. I guess, that normally you would avoid something like this, but I deliberately wanted to build one house in the influence radius of the carcoal pit. Just to see, if there's an effect. But unfortunately, you can't see the radius after it's built and this pale black circle is also hard to see on the footprint.

If I understand it right; good influence is yellow, bad influence black, buildings with a working area green. It would be nice to have the circles of different kind of happiness buildings in different colors. I suppose you'll need all different kind of these buildings, and I don't really know which "belong to the same category" and which not.

Third picture

In this game too, the foreign merchant wanted to build a store at the trading dock and of cause we couldn't refuse it, even if it looks odd in these surroundings. It also bring good statistics.:) You can see the green happiness graph. It's pretty straight. There's a few small "bumps"; each time a child is born or some nomads are accepted. All perfectly happy from the start, but soon realizing that Banished life isn't that fun after all!  :-\

First I actually thought, that the "bump down" was caused by the charcoal pit. But I'm pretty sure now, that it has nothing to do with it. I guess it's rather the couple who had to wait longest for a house, that started to get unsatisfied. That may happen, in every game, if it takes to long to build a home for everyone. As soon as they could move into their house, they were as happy as the rest.

Fourth picture

I've built a well, a graveyard, a chapel, a sauna and an ale house. Even bought some wine from the merchant from the far south. (I like the new names) :) No effect on the happiness. What am I supposed to do, to see something? And why is the sign for "no raw material" shown on the ale house, also when there's wine in the store, that's also consumed. In fact, my few people drinks a lot of wine! ;)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 02, 2018, 04:10:13 PM
              this happiness change might be interesting.TOM and other mods over time bring something that can be useful to others to make huge impacts to the game. the NAT DIV combined with RED's fodder is like that.happiness influence once figured out could change many things. i never worry about where to build and ignore the happiness radius.i also seldom build churches.
   i take it the bannies that had to wait for thier house had to sleep outside and didn't have a boardinghouse.i wonder how that might have helped.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 02, 2018, 04:56:19 PM
Nice that we can test it now. I already started to set up some forum features on my site to not lose more time.

The Trapper start is rather a difficult thing as I wrote because actually other things are to build at the beginning. But I liked the idea. To have the cabin already built supports it a bit more and initial traps cannot be added because of their custom flag. At least not in the usual way. And as you say, a normal start as trapper will be on a forest map where starting locations will be always ok.

About the happiness system it needs some info and I wanted to make a post but could not.^^ So here some things I found out in my tests and how I interpret it in game. What we already know is that there are 5 or actually 6 aspects:
People (at least with low population) seem to need minimum 3 aspects to then profit from the fourth and to reach 100% with the final ones. So you will not see an effect until you have solved the basic needs with wells, a sauna and a market and building at least one of the actual happiness providers (Alcohol or Religion).

Detracting works as simply removing one aspect per object. That means 2 charcoal pits kill 2 aspects in there radius. So charcoal burning in center of the village makes all your effort in alcohol useless. It really needs to be made out in the forest. The good thing is that detracting doesn't make your people unhappier than their default 3 stars. It only prevents them from becoming happy.

Also good to know is that a banny added to the game gets the right value with next calculation which is in vanilla every 3 month and here every 1 month. It can be done more often but I was afraid to hit the performance when it has to be done every minute with high population and 10x speed. It should be tested more. That's also the cause of these peaks when a child is born or nomads were accepted. It can be seen in vanilla as well but only with tiny peaks flattened after 3 month.

I had permanent radii first but after some playing I found it annoying and made it this way to see it only when placing. Also different colors for different aspects I don't really want. It would end in a rainbow colored UI. For learning how different buildings work it would be useful but later not anymore. And for players who don't use this mode it would be irrelevant or even confusing. The icon in ale house UI I will fix.

Let's see if you can make your people happy. It is still an experimental thing. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 02, 2018, 05:11:49 PM
Let's see if you can make your people happy. It is still an experimental thing. :)

It sure is! I think the changes are great, it is now actually important to watch the happiness and think carefully about where things should be built.
In my testing with all of my smoky, smelly industry buildings I have to be very careful where I place them as my mod is adding even more detraction in happiness, In my test last night I had to build a lot of wells and markets to try and keep them happy just in their workplace... it was very hard with such a heavy mining industry employing 70% of the workforce, no one wanted to be happy!
Production drops, more idling. I will need to make a couple of other positive happiness buildings for this mod I think.

:)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 02, 2018, 06:43:43 PM
can i be the evil nuthead?  so you are saying they need wells. does this matter with disasters off and would a modded well give the same happiness help??how much dropoff to production will this affect??
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 02, 2018, 06:58:42 PM
Yes, all wells with the safety happiness attached work. The citizens like wells whether there is a fire or not, so it does not matter if you have disasters off. Of course if you have all/most of the other happiness aspects you can forgo the wells.
The drop in production is because they seem to be idling more often when unhappy, I think anyway from my observations.
This is still very much new in being able to see these kind of effects. When doing that test I was using the Iron Man mod, so I was struggling to keep up a balanced amount of food anyway for the hungry citizens.
But my other observation is that their jobs can be making them unhappy when in mining areas, I don't think it is so much from their own workplaces, but all the other detraction buildings around them. It is hard to follow this though, as I could only gauge it by following individual citizens, problem is they were also changing jobs often...
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 03, 2018, 03:18:02 AM
Haha yes, your industry mod has a great potential to keep down happiness. I think it's good to be careful with adding detraction. From what I know it's not possible to counter detracting areas by more happiness providers. It removes one whole aspect, doesn't matter by how many overlapping objects it is provided. And we cannot add more than these 5. So every detraction effect should be avoidable by some good town planning and keeping a reasonable distance between houses and detractor. I made these areas already small, 5 tiles from charcoal pit for example. The others are also small. People don't want to live right next to a quarry or mine entrance but 1 or 2 houses further it's ok.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 03, 2018, 06:55:09 AM
I'm still a bit confused about this happiness-system, but no worries, I'll get it; sooner or later. ;)  :P

If i understand what you say; they first need the 3 "basics"; "safety", "health", "goods". (Maybe we should call the second someting else than "health", not to confuse it with the "hart health. If I understand it right, they are independent on eachother)

If these three things are provided and no "black circle" interfere, one of "spirit", "spirit bonus" or "entertainment" can lead to an improvement. Some questions:

Does this mean, you only need one of the 3 later aspects to regain happiness?
What's the difference between "spirit" and "spirit bonus"?
Does this mean, that people who live inside a "black circle" never will regain any happiness, no matter what?
Does it mean, that you'll never get less than 3 stars, unless there's a death of a family member?
The ale house has a happiness circle. Does it work without alcohol? It looks like people consume alcohol without a worker. So the worker has nothing to do with the happiness-system, only the production at the inn?
How do these both (un)-happiness systems work together? Say a child loses a parent and some stars, does this other happiness- system help to regain some?

And finally the more "philosophical" but over all important question, where I don't expect an exact answer: How much does this influence the gameplay? How much efficiency do they really lose, with these two less "basic stars"? Does it "pay off" to bother? Of course it has a gameplay aspect of its own; trying to achieve full stars, but if we don't concider this; is it better to locate the houses of the worker close to the mine and lose efficiency because of idling or is it better to locate them a bit far away and lose efficiency, when they walk between house and work. No obvious answer. Nice things to investigate!  :)

Anyhow, I know now, why I saw no effect on the happiness, even though I had all these kind of buildings. I didn't realize, how small the radius from the trading dock is. There was only one house in its influence and it wasn't close enough to the well. This gives me a reason to talk about the size of the happiness radius in general terms, not based on gameplay experience. I would like the influence to be plausible.

Well: This is the North, we have plenty of water and expect to reach it fast and easy, close to where we live. To make people happy, the well must be close and the radius small. Not bigger than it is, rather smaller.

Sauna: Did you know, that our original sauna (bastu) not primary was used to take a bath, but to dry and smoke different products. You can still buy "basurökt skinka" sauna smoked ham. I think it was the same in Finland. But here it's a bath house only. Something like I can remember from when I was a child in the late 1950s, where not every house had a bathroom. We had a village bath house with sauna and large wooden tubs for us children to bath in. Open once a week, in the late afternoon for women and children and later in the evening for the men. It was the greatest fun to play in the water with your friends. Such a sauna bath house sopported one small village. The radius could be a little bit larger.

Trading port: People get happy, if they can get import goods. I don't think they get happier, if they live next to the trading port. I would prefere a larger radius, something like the wagon vendor. People are prepared to walk a short distance, and are still happy, to get these goods.

Chapel: A small chapel supports a small village, good as it is. By, the way! You can actually see the radius of the chapel when you click on it. I would very much like, that it would be the same on the other happiness/unhappiness buildings. I don't think it will confuse players, who don't play with this happiness system. I don't mean that they should be visible all the time, only when you click at the building. If it would have been, I would hardly had missed the small area of the trading dock.

Inn: One village, one church, one inn. The same size of the circle is good.

Now I want to see, if I can get my people a bit more happy! :)
 
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 03, 2018, 09:04:16 AM
If I was confused before, that's nothing compared to now!  :-[

I don't understand one thing.

I have 6 homes. Everyone in the area of the wagon vendor, chapel, inn and of one well, everyone except 6 in the area of the sauna, 1 and 2 in the area of the trading dock. There's some wine in the inn. This is the happiness now.

House 1 occupied by the latest nomad couple; both 5 stars.
House 2 occupied by an original family; parents and the middle child (a girl) 3 stars the boys 5 stars.
House 3 occupied by an original family; all 5 stars, parents and 3 boys
House 4 occupied by an original family; parents and daughters 3 stars, boy 5 stars
House 5 occupied by the first nomad family all 5 stars, even the daughter (!)
House 6 occupied by the second nomad family all 3 stars (not in the sauna area)

Explanation?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 03, 2018, 11:19:32 AM
Ok, then let's play with happiness circles. I have added them all as permanent and adjusted as you said. The wells a bit smaller (10) and the sauna a bit wider (20), the trading dock (30). Please load (http://www.banishedventures.com/download/northbeta) it in your running game and rebuild cabin workshops and the glass factory for fixed storage.

From your last picture.. that's what I also noticed. They have 3 stars in normal state and jump to 5 to be happy one after the other. I guess the game calculates an average value over homes. I'm not sure but must be something like that. Of course it would be better to have it graduated for every person. We cannot change how all that works and we just figure out vanilla mechanics here. I try to answer your questions:

Does this mean, you only need one of the 3 later aspects to regain happiness?
From what I figured out it starts to increase with the 4. covered aspect, yes.

What's the difference between "spirit" and "spirit bonus"?
The normal spirit aspect is what chapels provide to houses in there radius just like all other buildings work. The effect is higher with a priest working or actually it's an additional mechanic and given to people in an extra step. I think all we need to know is that a church with attendance UI and working priest has a bigger influence.

Does this mean, that people who live inside a "black circle" never will regain any happiness, no matter what?
Every black circle removes 1 of 5 provided aspects. Let's say you have a house with well, sauna, market and chapel = 4. With a charcoal pit next to the house it's only 3 anymore. Another charcoal pit reduces it to 2.

Does it mean, that you'll never get less than 3 stars, unless there's a death of a family member?
Yes, detracting removes happiness circles but does not decrease the default state. Another thing is clothing. People really dislike to have no coat.

The ale house has a happiness circle. Does it work without alcohol? It looks like people consume alcohol without a worker. So the worker has nothing to do with the happiness-system, only the production at the inn?
It provides happiness if alcohol is stored, doesn't matter if a worker is there or not. If everything is consumed it stops making happy. The job of the innkeeper is to make new stuff or to get it from markets and barns.

How do these both (un)-happiness systems work together? Say a child loses a parent and some stars, does this other happiness- system help to regain some?
As far as I know and what you found out in your tests before is that a child after loosing a parent is set to be depressiv without any effect of happiness buildings. In vanilla its a half star, here it's 2 stars.

And finally the more "philosophical" but over all important question, where I don't expect an exact answer: How much does this influence the gameplay? How much efficiency do they really lose, with these two less "basic stars"? Does it "pay off" to bother?
That's indeed the final question. If we can find a balance where all effort in happiness including making alcohol from food and keeping distances to emission sources results in a more efficient economy than ignoring their needs then we did it. 8)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 03, 2018, 11:48:11 AM
Thanks for your answers Tom. Most of it sounds reasonable but I think you are wrong about one thing; the small chapel. I'm not sure that it has an influence at all, at least it's not capable to increase happiness. And the people in a house with well, market, chapel, inn with alcohol didn't regain any happiness; not until I built another sauna.

Just to increase the confusion, I have a new report from the happiness in my village.

First I discovered, that the wagon vendor only brings happiness, if the vendor actually works. The happiness started to drop as I wanted to send the vendor out in the woods to pick blueberries. As i built a sauna in the influence area of house number 6, they all became happy. And as soon as they've consumed all alcohol, the happiness dropped to 3 stars everywhere. Nothing confusing here, rather expected.

After some years I could again buy some alcohol. The happiness rose, fast but again, not by everyone. I have no clue, how it's calculated.

House 1: 2 adults 1 boy 3 *
House 2: 2 adults, 1 girl 3*, 1 boy, 1 girl 5*
House 3: 2 adults, 3 boys 5*
House 4: 2 adults, 1 boy,1 girl 3*
House 5: man 3* wife, 1 boy, 2girls 5*
House 6: 2 adults, 1 boy 3*, 1 girl 5*

2 young adults have moved to one "perfect" house each, both 3*. There's also one more house outside the circle of the inn, of course everyone has 3 * here. All in all; they are less happy this time than they were, the first time they had alcohol.

My question this time: what is special with house 3? Everyone is always happy here.  (sorry I see now that the orange circle is slightly wrong, house 3 is directly south of the marked sauna). What does the man in house 5 miss now? He was happy before but opposite to the rest of his family not now.

To the graph on the picture.

1. Built the wagon vendor.
2. Sent him out in the woods
3. Put him back to work and built another sauna
4. No more alcohol
5. Again alcohol at the inn

sorry forgot the picture
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 03, 2018, 02:08:45 PM
ok, TOM's explanation of them gaining happiness makes sence. am i correct that they only ho down to 3 stars? so if NILLA built 5 charcoal pits next to 1 house,those bannies would just stay at the base 3? we can only add to happiness but not really take away?
     
                    if that be the case,as players we just need to figure out how to survive at the base 3 stars. in a industrial village,trying to build the happiness wouldn't help, since the industries would mathmatically be below the 3.help would not be noticed since the village would only go to the 3 stars. in a farming area you produce "X" food with workers at 3 stars. if "X" is enough to support the map, then you wouldnt need to boost the happiness.
          i assume that after figuring out how to help make the bannies happier and have it influence the game,then you will re-adjust and change things so the industry makes them more unhappy than the 3 stars. is there a formula or is it unknown as to the % imact each +star has? say +1 star gives % more food per square etc.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Turis on May 03, 2018, 02:42:49 PM
Hi, Nilla,

How are you?
No, I'm still here, leaving you alone peacefully. I just wanted to greet you as I haven't done it when you came back from your vacation.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 03, 2018, 03:02:47 PM
A few more years, a few more experiments, a few more knowledges, a few more questions:

Summary so far shown on the happiness graph.

There's a "0-level" at 60%. At the points 1, 2 and 4 the inn served alcohol and the happiness rose. The first time to about 80%, the second time to about 75% and the 3 time to about 70%. As far as I can see, nothing else has changed. What does this mean? Are some people so annoyed, that the alcohol was out, that they never more will gain happiness? In this case, you'll better not start to serve alcohol, unless you have a sustainable supply.

But I think something else must lie behind this decreasing effect of alcohol. It seems weird to program something like that. Difficult and to what purpose? One change during this time is that the population has grown. Could it be possible, that each of these "happiness buildings" only can affect a certain number of people? Something in the code like the church with its 200 members. Could other buildings have such limits too, even if we can't see them? I guess that you have made the sauna based on the hospital happiness. A vanilla hospital can hold 30 patients, if I remember it right. Maybe it can also only make 30 people happy. If there are more inhabitants in its influence area, some of them stay unhappy.

Other explanations are welcome.

I was wrong, the small chapel has an influence on happiness. I "fake demolished" it, and the happiness started to drop, 3 on the graph. But this is only the case, if you have no big church. I made the same experiment after I've built the big church and saw no effect.

The big church has a large impact. I built it at 5, when I had alcohol at the inn. But to have full effect you'll need a church and an inn with alcohol. As I took the alcohol away, (at 6) the happiness went down to about 70%. With church and inn it's about 85%. How this work I don't understand. It doesn't work like the church increases the happiness with 1 star and the inn with another. It works on individuals; (This sounds more like in life ;) ) Some people get happy from alcohol, others from the church. I have seen none with 4 stars. It's either 3 or 5.

People still not full happy are 4 inhabitants of one house inside a black radius (or rather touching it) and odd people in some houses, where the rest of the family is happy.

Yes Brad, not even half a dozen charcoal pits together with some mines, quarries and industrial buildings set the happiness down from 3stars. It only prevents people from getting happy. And I'm pretty sure, that there's no formula about how large impact the happiness/loss of happiness has in production. I made some experiments a long time ago in a vanilla game. If you compare people with 5 stars and people with ― star, there is a difference. The ― star do idle more but it wasn't terribly much more. I can remember I looked at two fisher in the same dock and counted how many times each went away to idle. If the happy person idled once, the unhappy idled something like 4 times each year. The loss in production was less than by an uneducated.

Hi Turis. Nice to hear something from you, not including pillagaing! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Gatherer on May 03, 2018, 03:17:47 PM
Some people get happy from alcohol, others from the church.


Better to be in an inn and think of church than being in the church and thinking of inn. :P
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 04, 2018, 01:42:01 AM
... is there a formula or is it unknown as to the % impact each +star has? say +1 star gives % more food per square etc.

In a way yes but it depends on the type of work. What I did were chopping competitions for testing. A normal banny with 3 stars cuts about 450 - 470 firewood in a year, counted in "Villager" start with chopping block in the right corner. A happy banny with 5 stars cuts about 580 - 600 firewood in this setting. +28% increased productivity or +14% per star.

It will be the same for other crafting professions if they have enough raw material and if the limit is not reached. In other jobs, time is not so important or it works differently. Farming is such a thing. At least in a warm climate I guess it will not be a disadvantage to have lazy farmers. In a cold climate it might be different. Here it can mean to lose yield when farmers idle in harvest season.

Right from the feeling, +25 to 30% more productivity with happy and motivated people sounds to me like Yes, it will make sense. Not necessarily to survive, rather as something in addition. Of course it doesn't answer the question if the opposite strategy is not even more productive, building dense and close to industry, optimizing walkways and not wasting space and resources for religion, entertainment and funny saunas... Maybe it's even a good thing if both ways are comparable. Do you know the old game "Black and White"? :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 04, 2018, 02:10:03 AM
Quote
+28% increased productivity or +14% per star.

I'm pretty sure, that it's not quite as simple as that. Like you also say, if we read further. I'm sure it depends on the profession, on how they idle, how far away from the workplace/home/stores are the idling spots, which idling spot do they actually use and other things, we can't set numbers on. But we can agree, that there is an effect and it's not neglectable. And it is in an interesting range, where it will make a lot of fun to play with location of different things.

But to play with these things, I need to understand the mechanisms. And I can't say I do, at least not yet. Why do some people regain all stars, others with (as it seems) the same conditions not? I will start a new game tonight and look further. I will check my theory, if there's a limit on how many people can get happy from one building. (I don't really think it is, but I don't know for sure) There's another thing, that stroke my mind, as I looked into the houses; in the homes far away from the buildings with black circles everyone was happy, in buildings closer, there were some unhappy people, even if the black circle didn't touch the house. Can it be, that these areas have a larger influence than the circle? Have anyone noticed something like this?

I will plan the new settlement better to check out these both aspects, and maybe something more. Suggestions?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 04, 2018, 06:15:00 AM
NILLA,did you check the inventory of the houses? maybe they didnt pick up a balance of food or ran out of 1 type so that had an affect on some of the residents. think this is going to be tuff to figure with the game switching the bannies' jobs.  as the bannies changes profession so will the path he walks.it is possable that walking to work he passes the black circle.

      as for a suggestion, try splitting the industrial area farther away and build houses with it. then build a town away from it. the farther apart maybe the bannies wont change jobs as much.might be easier to compare differences. 3 areas industry with negative affectfarm area with a 0 happiness affectand a twon with the positives.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 04, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
I had the idea, that people could be influenced when they for some reason stay in the black circle without living in it, too and that those who live closer, will pass there more often, but I don't think, that this has an influence. My charcoal burner had 5 stars, her laborer husband 3. Maybe he had that profession before. As you say, it's hard to say. But if this had an impact, the happiness would change more often by the individuals, somehow in the same speed as they change jobs, but it doesn't.

I had something like you suggest in mind; I will later try to build 2 as identical parts of a settlement as possible, the only difference, happiness buildings only in one part. But first I want to understand the "rules".
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 04, 2018, 09:39:06 AM
I don't have an explanation for these odd families but I'm pretty sure the game calculates a happiness value per house (adding aspects minus detraction) and then setting inhabitants to happy one after the other since the game only knows "normal" and "happy" people. And "sad" of course after losing elders or missing clothing. Priest bonus is probably also an extra step. Where people walk or work is irrelevant for sure. Would be way to complicated to track. I made a test with 100% happy people and built a house outside of all circles. Then demolished a house to force one family to move away and they had then all 3 stars. Maybe these odd cases are any result of rounding inhabitants. Every person must be 3 or 5 and the game cannot depict the exact happiness value this way.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 04, 2018, 02:45:58 PM
You might be right, and that the game calculates an average for a house and since it has no other options than 5 and 3 stars; some people get 5 stars, some 3. That can explain some things. But what I don't understand is why does one house have an average of 5,0 and some 4,5 or even 4,0 when the premises look the same.

I started a new game. This time on a medium lake map. I will stay for a while on land until I go out for the jetties, trying to understand the happiness system. I think, I will also need some space to play with the advanced blast furnace later. Anyhow, from the start is not much to tell. I was too lazy to start my usual favourite; "survivors" and realized, I've never used "Gold Hunter" before. Some more gold on the map than usual, but otherwise not much different from the "trapper" start I used the last time. It's a nice start, if you plan to build a trading dock early.

First picture

Map, settings, and mods.

This time I wanted to plan a bit better in advance but it's difficult. First I'm not used to that kind of planning and second, the circles are of so different size, that it's hard to get a structure. At least, I lack the ability to make this.

Second picture

So I went back to my usual "organic" growth of a settlement. Just a little bit more structured than last time. Unusual for a screenshot from me; you can see several footprints.

The menu of the laborer Lashad is open. That's because I followed him a couple of summers. In summer I send more or less everyone out in the woods to pick food. I let the game run on at least 5X without doing more than marking food and maybe herbs for harvesting. I plan, build and produce other things than food in winter. So I had plenty of time just to just look.

In this summer Lashad "visited" the not yet existing herbalist 5 times and idled 3 times. Opposite to what I remembered, idling was faster done than visiting the herbalist. This means the loss of production (picking berries and mushrooms) was very much smaller because of the lacking stars than because of the lacking hearts.

A few years later after I had an herbalist, a well and a trading dock, I watched him again. This time he "visited" the closed herbalist 3 times. He now had 4 hearts. I don't want my people run across the forest to the herbalist in summer, it must wait until the food is in the stores, thatīs why itīs closed in summer. He idled 4 times this summer. 3 of the 4 idling opportunities took a long time. He was at the well each time I looked. I guess, that he was in the neighborhood anyway and the idling was fast done once, the other times he walked all the way from the forest to the well for a brief idling brake. This time the loss on production because of idling was large.

So Brad, Tom and all others; Production loss because of idling is different dependant on the circumstances. If we have no possibilities to improve the happiness, it looks like it's better to avoid idling places. Or maybe have a lot of idling places, so everyone have one close. I think, it's the time on the road from work to the idling place, that has the largest impact on the production.

Third picture

This time I have a lot of alcohol but it took very long until I could buy any glass for the ale house. I have ordered it from 3 different merchants and finally one brought some. Every house has a well, sauna, trading dock, small chapel and inn close enough. As expected the happiness rose very fast as I put alcohol into the inn. Everyone except 2 people have 5 stars.

This is weird!

I didn't like my first screenshot but since I know that I made a save, just to the time as I put the ale in the inn, I went back to make a better picture. Also this time two people wasn't influenced by the alcohol, but only one of them the same person. One was from a totally different house. I start to believe, that there is some random factor in this, that makes it quite unpredictable.

I've marked the unhappy people Blue; first time play. Red; reload save. Why these houses?

By the way; a third attempt made the same people unhappy as the first time.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 04, 2018, 04:52:16 PM
I try to make an answer why 2 unhappy people. Looking at your graph it's slightly above 95% happiness. With priest you would probably hit the 100.

You have 22 people. The game has assigned 5 stars (100%) to 19 people and 3 stars (60%) to 2 people. That means:

19 * 1.0 + 2 * 0.6 = 20.2 / 22 people = 96% happiness of the population. These 2 guys are the 4 % unhappy part. We don't know what Luke has coded but it can be that the game calculates an average, population wide happiness value and then assigns people. The unhappy rest has to be somewhere and looking in there house it seems not logical but over the whole population it is.

Why exactly these 2 citizens again after another calculation? I would not expect something else. Maybe they are just at the end of any internal list of citizens.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 04, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
It wasn't the same people the second time, that's the stunning part; one was the same, one from a totally different house.

I have played a bit more and I also let people swap homes. Sometimes a 3* person moves to another house and get 5 *, sometimes not. Sometimes a person who moves into one of these (for some reason, I don't understand) "bad" houses loses a star, sometimes not. It seems very random.

Anyway; you are right; a church with a priest makes everyone happy.

I also have some numbers from production sites I ran continuously; fisher apiary, trapper.

I'll write it like this average 3*/average 5*/increased production %

Fisher: 528/581/10%
Apiary: 351/384/10%
Trapper:98/133/36%

Fisher and apiary are very close to idling spots, the trapper far away. My guess is that these values are extremes. It would be hard to get below a loss of 10% due to idling and I can hardly think of a "worse case" than my trapper far out in the woods. I'll show you some pictures tomorrow. Now good night.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 05, 2018, 02:23:54 AM
Here are the promised pictures.

First picture

The center part of the settlement. You can see, that the idling spots are very close to the fisher and the apiary. I'm pretty sure, that's why the increase of production is small with 5*. The big church with a priest makes everyone happy. I don't think, it pays off this early, to struggle and gather all these stones needed for that church, I guess I will miss them later for more important things. Also to employ one person as priest this early, seems to make little sense. After all it's only a few more people, who get happy because of it.

The alcohol however is cheap and the inn works also without a worker and since it makes around 95% of the people happy, I would say; it may pay off as early as possible. Maybe later it will be the opposite; if the big church with 1 worker can make 95% of 200 people happy (I don't know the %), I guess we can live without booze.

Second picture

Here's an overview, where you also can see the trapper's cabin out in the woods, far away from all idling spots.

I haven't said much to other changes in this version of the mod: I like the woodcutter, who cuts trees. I guess, you can't let him work all the time. If you do, there will soon be no more trees left in the area. But there's no need for that, he's quite efficient. I only let him work when I need logs. If I let him work one winter, it's enough for some years. I haven't noticed that the forest around disappears. So, I can say; in this early part of the game; it works perfect. :)

Maybe it's been this way before and I haven't noticed; the weight of iron is low. It's good, because it needs little space in the stores and the blacksmiths work efficient, because he doesn't need to walk to a store often, but it also have some disadvantage: I wanted to make 2 wagon parts to build one wagon vendor; no need for more in this part of the game. The blacksmith carried all my 44 iron into his shop!  :-\ OK, you can "trick" the system and "fake demolish" the blacksmith for wagon parts and "free" the iron again. Even if it's not a big part of the building materials in the North, from time to time you'll need some iron and if I want to play with the jetty parts, I will need it on more places.

Third picture

We can close the idea, that there's only a certain number of people, who can get happy from one building. The well in the middle of this picture "supports" 4 houses with each 5 person with happiness. Before the church was built everyone except one very religious, anti alcoholic person was happy. I also only have one sauna for the 41 citizens.

I've cut in the content in my trading port. (1 glass is there to test, if anyone wants to pay the higher price for it and it maybe could make sense to produce for export) I like the new merchants and their names. Except the "stingy" Hanseatic merchant, that so far doesn't pay the higher price for anything I want to sell, everyone want to buy something and pays good for it. Most merchants have something to sell, that I want; grain, vegetables, alcohol, even if the amount still is small. I've also bought some iron and iron tools and of course; sheep and bee hives. I will not farm in this harsh climate. If there's no changes, it would work, but opposite to everything else; the needed micromanagement increases as the settlement grows. I will rather depend more on trade to support this settlement.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 05, 2018, 10:34:32 AM
That all looks good so far. Just as we now have a working and noticeable happiness system where you can build a church and brew stuff for really improving your town. For me it doesn't matter if we cannot solve the last mysteries about one or the other citizen or how exactly it's calculated. These merchants from Hanseatic cities might be stingy (wanting only all your gold and silber) but they are your best friend if you want to buy bricks to reach the industrial level.. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Turis on May 05, 2018, 03:04:03 PM
Oops, some of my troops decided on their own to pay a visit to your village. I hope you don't mind their company. :) :P

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 05, 2018, 03:52:05 PM
i think it is really genetics lol
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 06, 2018, 05:17:33 AM
 :D A pity, that there's no goat in Banished. But anyway, the animation has it's limitations, so I guess they wouldn't jump anyway.

That all looks good so far. Just as we now have a working and noticeable happiness system where you can build a church and brew stuff for really improving your town. For me it doesn't matter if we cannot solve the last mysteries about one or the other citizen or how exactly it's calculated.

I'm a bit different, for me it's pretty annoying, not to understand how a "system" work. But maybe, I have to accept that there is some random factor in it, that I can't influence. I'm not there yet (I mean to accept this). I still want to understand more.

For example; shortly after I built the church, everyone was happy. So was I. I thought; no matter what may influences the choice between 5 and 3 stars; as soon as you have all of these happiness factors, everyone is happy. But my happiness didn't last long, same as by one of my Bannis; the priest from all people !  :-\ Suddenly she lost two stars! Why? What happened that made her lose her faith?

The only thing I could think of was that the brickmaker (far away from the home of the priest) was built to about that time. Can it be that the game calculates an average happiness, for all Bannis, that depends on the total number of buildings, with some kind of effect on the happiness? I tried to reproduce this by building another 3 charcoal pits; but no effect. I didn't see anything later, when I built a quarry with a big black circle either. So I guess, the brickmaker far away was "innocent" of the drop.

I'll show some screenshots.

First picture

The blue arrow shows, that there wasn't 100% happiness for long.

Nomads from the church arrived at a spot far away (red circle on the map). There's no bridge over the stream, so they couldn't find their way to the village and froze to death.  :'( The villager however could find their bodies (still without bridge) and now they rest at the cemetery. I thought about moving it to the "black zone" close to the brickmaker, but I was too late. Now it stays where it probably belong better; between the two churches.

Second picture

I have continued my experimenting with the productivity of the trapper; the one with the large difference in output between 5 and 3 stars.

First I built a house outside every happiness circle (except the big church) but close to the cabin.The production from this 3* trapper who lived close, was about the same as the 5* trapper who lived in the village outside the trapper's circle. I watched him for a while and he went to a well in the village for a brief idling brake now and then (always to a well, I never saw him go anywhere else).

 I thought that I might improve the production even more, if I built first a close idling spot; a well, then a sauna and a second trading dock (that I needed anyway) close enough. But here I was wrong. The productivity went down a bit with the 5* trapper. I had forgotten one thing, that also has a large impact on the production in a harsh Nordic climate; the clothes. At the beginning everyone had warm rein deer parkas, but when the population grew, some have to make do with simple wool coats. I know from earlier Nordic games, that there's quite a large difference and that you'll better give your population warm clothing, if possible. Here it also was very obvious. The 5* trapper now had "fair" cothes= a wool coat, earlier it was "excellent" = a rein deer parka. There are also now more buildings in the trapper's circle, which also set the production down.

The green happiness graph "moves" a bit up and down. It's partly because of new houses outside the happiness circles and partly because of some experiments. No really new conclusions.

Third picture

As you may understand; I'm not done with experimenting with the happiness system but I wanted to start some jetty buildings anyway. It was part of my plan and I've waited long enough. I have some questions to @Discrepancy.

- The hospital on the picture looks fantastic! :) It makes me happy! And my Bannis, it has a happiness circle. I guess it's "health" (replacing the Nordic sauna.) To return to my general discussion about the size of the happiness circles. I find the hospital has a too small circle. I think everyone would be happy to have a hospital in the village, even if you live more far away.

- The jetty well for firefighting shows no happiness circle. Does it have one anyway? If not, I find it ought to be added.

- Lumber is "flagged" as logs. I don't like that. My menu showed some 100 logs, so I didn't bother to produce any more. Suddenly my chopper stopped to work and I was really short on firewood. I realized that there were no logs left, only lumber. Red flags his lumber together with bricks and glass as building material. I think it would fit better together with bricks here, too. You have to check out in the inventory anyway, how much of it is bricks and how much roof tiles. I third product wouldn't hurt so much, as it does together with the logs.

- This is maybe also for @Tom Sawyer; some of the merchants bring corn to a price of 1; a bargain. It might be a marketing trick, introducing a new crop from oversee, no one ever heard of. But somehow, I think it's a "bug". A product that doesn't normally exist in the North, comes with the jetties in the game to a wrong price.

- My general impression is that the jetty buildings are expensive, with these new construction materials, that has to be produced. I haven't made any calculations to compare with other buildings and I will not say, it's too expensive. It's difficult to build on water, so why not? (I know, my husband and son worked all day yesterday, to repare our small jetty at the lake  :-\)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Gatherer on May 06, 2018, 08:37:05 AM
Iron fittings are only worth 2 trade value. They are cheap to import. Wagon parts are worth 22.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 06, 2018, 01:41:48 PM
Yes this hospital is really nice, especially at this location. People there for sure never want to be healthy again. :)

To put lumber in Wood was my idea or fault. I don't want it in Bricks because it makes a lot of trouble there. Not stored on wood piles, not accepted by timber merchants, confusing brickmakers and so on. In Wood it also makes problems. I can only imagine two solutions: A separate flag for lumber or no lumber. I'm still not convinced of this lumber thingy and prefer a generic "wood" resource. I don't even know how to make a good translation. For me it's just Holz. But I want to support it somehow if it comes in game by another mod. Will think about it.

Corn for 1 is not ok. Must be any dumping trade war action from overseas.^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 07, 2018, 12:12:31 AM
first off I will add my views in to what @Tom Sawyer has said about Lumber:
To put lumber in Wood was my idea or fault. I don't want it in Bricks because it makes a lot of trouble there. Not stored on wood piles, not accepted by timber merchants, confusing brickmakers and so on. In Wood it also makes problems. I can only imagine two solutions: A separate flag for lumber or no lumber. I'm still not convinced of this lumber thingy and prefer a generic "wood" resource. I don't even know how to make a good translation. For me it's just Holz. But I want to support it somehow if it comes in game by another mod. Will think about it.

I like the addition of lumber, only for the fact that is slows down building. Otherwise I'm going to go back to longerrrrrrr......... build times. I do think build times are too short for most vanilla buildings... I think housing is built too fast compared to the times of producing some goods etc. Most logs need to be dressed in any housing design anyway, though I know it is done to keep within the faster speed of the game, but it has always irked me, and playing with a realtime aging mod just exemplifies the problem. So, Lumber:

I do like it being in the wood storage flag also, for aesthetics and because it makes sense for trade etc as Tom said, but I can see the issue with it stopping wood (log) production by foresters. I added the option for the lumber to be then cut to firewood if need be in the Industry Lumber-mill (https://banishednorth.ds-mods.net/buildings/resource-production/industry-lumber-mill/).
It is hard to decide what to do here?, I started with Lumber being in same category as bricks & roof tiles, the change to wood seemed logical. A possible solution would be we could change the flag to materials with the clay, sand & lime. Though I don't really think it fits, same as with glass as it would be in a barn. Or I ditch it? what do I turn the lumber mills into? lol :)

I have some questions to Discrepancy.

- The hospital on the picture looks fantastic! :) It makes me happy! And my Bannis, it has a happiness circle. I guess it's "health" (replacing the Nordic sauna.) To return to my general discussion about the size of the happiness circles. I find the hospital has a too small circle. I think everyone would be happy to have a hospital in the village, even if you live more far away.

- The jetty well for firefighting shows no happiness circle. Does it have one anyway? If not, I find it ought to be added.

- Lumber is "flagged" as logs. I don't like that. My menu showed some 100 logs, so I didn't bother to produce any more. Suddenly my chopper stopped to work and I was really short on firewood. I realized that there were no logs left, only lumber. Red flags his lumber together with bricks and glass as building material. I think it would fit better together with bricks here, too. You have to check out in the inventory anyway, how much of it is bricks and how much roof tiles. I third product wouldn't hurt so much, as it does together with the logs.

- This is maybe also for @Tom Sawyer; some of the merchants bring corn to a price of 1; a bargain. It might be a marketing trick, introducing a new crop from oversee, no one ever heard of. But somehow, I think it's a "bug". A product that doesn't normally exist in the North, comes with the jetties in the game to a wrong price.

- My general impression is that the jetty buildings are expensive, with these new construction materials, that has to be produced. I haven't made any calculations to compare with other buildings and I will not say, it's too expensive. It's difficult to build on water, so why not? (I know, my husband and son worked all day yesterday, to repare our small jetty at the lake  :-\)


:)
- Jetty Hospital - I agree now with a noticeable happiness system - for next release I have increased the radius by approx 70% (was 34, will be 55). The hospital does give a Health happiness with worker. The hospital did show radius before construction, but I have edited it so that it will show when constructed and UI is open also.

- I have made the changes also to the jetty well to display the radius.

- I'm pretty sure the corn isn't coming from my mod, I have not included it any of the recipes.

- Yes I made the jetties expensive, some players will decide to not play with it because of this I know, but I do want a level of realism, and it really is not easy to build out over water, I wanted it to be a challenge. CC's docks are far too cheap. The problem is that I forgot to balance the build costs for the north.
@Gatherer , in the north it is far more expensive, something I should perhaps adjust is the build costs in the north. Iron Fittings have a cost of 16 in the north, wagon parts are 80 and lumber is 6 - the jetties are very expensive in the north.

I am working on the issues with traders not stopping. I think I have sorted it... hopefully, just doing more testing to make certain.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 07, 2018, 06:44:14 AM
     NILLA,we have goats but they dont run around. we cant use them cause TOM locked up the feed.i have no corn seed,can only use RED's greenhouses to grow the corn. 

        DS, your theory on build times is interesting.we players have been spoiled by being able to build so quickly. it would take time for us to change our ways but i do agree with you.
        uniformity matters. modders using the limit flags the same allows us to use different mods together. by lumber abd bricks being under construction and the sand or clay being under raw materials, we can use the limits to control buildings and not overproduce items.or at least save us from filling barns everywhere with odd goods. brick,glass ,and lumber all under construction makes sence since they are all used together in building.

     for storage would a smaller version of the nordic wharehouse be helpful? a building that could be built earlier in game or just adding covers for the piles? what about storing in the buildings themself. like adding some lumber storage to the millglass storage to the glass factory,etc? though i hate the thought of the bannies digging them and carrying stuff in and out of them, cellars are am option. they can be placed beside the workplace and don't take up much space.  i used to have some that were only 1 space but could be used to add extra storage space to different buildings. in RL,fqactories would store some finished products.someone would come get them more than the factory would deliver each piece.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 07, 2018, 08:03:02 AM
To lumber:

I find, lumber as a building material in Banished is good. The way I see it; lumber is wood, that's been prepared to build with, also for the primitive buildings. Here the logs are cut by the builders to lumber with an ax. I agree with you @Discrepancy; to build these first simple buildings is too fast and easy. Later, when saw mills were developed, it was much faster done with the "prepared" lumber. In my world, it ought to be much faster to build a similar wooden house with lumber than with raw logs.

As I said; to flag lumber together with logs is for me a "worse case". I really dislike it. In most of my games, logs is the only product, I active and deliberate use the limits for; letting the forester automatically only plant in times, as there's a lot of logs in my stores. This gives a higher, more sustainable production in my forests. I would hate to see this destroyed by lumber. I've never used this limit for bricks; simply because there are already two brick products; bricks and roof tiles, that you have to keep track on manually anyway. So it wouldn't help to stop produce bricks, when the limit is reached, you might be out of roof tiles. A third product here is much less disturbing. To me it's the "least bad" option" to flag lumber together with bricks.

I can understand, that you are bothered about the merchant, who buys wood to a good price in the big port @Tom Sawyer . Of cause he doesn't only want the logs, he wants lumber as well. Historically correct would be to want lumber only. The whole coast area of North Sweden became very prosperous, as the saw mills were developed in the 19th century. But would it be so bad, if he also would bye bricks and roof tiles to the higher price? I don't think, that many people would spam the map with clay pits, that run empty after a while, to build an export business with bricks. And if they do; why not? I guess, there have been areas, who lived from brickmaking as well. It would also not hurt much, if the merchant, who brings bricks, that you'll need initially, also would offer a few lumber. Probably you wouldn't want to buy them, but there are so many other products from the merchants, you don't want to buy/ can't afford to buy. Another wouldn't hurt much. Mostly I order bricks, roof tiles and glass anyway. I see no difference, if the merchant also would offer lumber.

I will speak more about these merchants some other time. I haven't had the big port long enough, to have a real opinion. I can only say generally; so far in this game; it's harder to support the population with vegetables, than it was in my last game I played without farming in the North. Not because I canīt pay for it. The merchants who arrive to the dock, simply bring too little vegetables. Even when I order, they may bring 1000 or sometimes, if I order peppar only 300. Grain works OK. I will see, if it improves now, with the big port. Another option would be the food port from the jetties (on a location where merchants arrive) but I will wait and see, how the supply work with the Nordic merchants only.

Yesterday's gaming wasn't really good: Full of bugs; merchants not arriving, crashes.........., disturbance in log production because of the lumber, a big fire, I also didn't found anything new about the happiness system (or maybe one small little thing, I want to test in another game) but nothing bothered me much. I simply was in a good mood. Listening to Johnny Cash, normally not "my kind of music" I'm more the "rockīn roll kind of person", but who doesn't like Johnny Cash? I also found a new favourite song; strongly recommended to listen to, especially if you are someone who says; "I don't like country music", "I don't like punk rock" or "I don't like Reggae music".... The "County legend" Johnny Cash singing together with the "Punk legend" Joe Strummer "Redemption Song" from the "Reggae legend" Bob Marley. It was new to me and absolutely great.

First picture

Quite a few buildings destroyed by fire. Not so bad like on the film on your web page @Tom Sawyer  ;) but bad enough.

Second picture

The farmers workplace doesn't look good together with the upgraded the house. I find the green roof most disurbant, the raw wood less. People wouldn't necessarily have painted their outhouses, but an alternative with a roof like the other outhouse would fit better, or maybe a free standing extra workplace. Maybe you've planned, that these workplaces will get out of use in an industrial area, but I still use them and will  need them for quite some time longer. Because of this map with little forest, it also makes sense to upgrade all houses. I need less fuel now after many houses are upgraded. For this game I will try to move the workplaces and see, if I can add them to a small storehouse, the diary hut, the ale house or some other building in the "old style" I want to keep.

Third picture

I've noticed something that might be a problem in a larger settlement. Innkeeper steal from eachother! As much as they can!

I import alcohol. In this game without farming, it's easier, than to produce it yourself. At least for now. I only use an innkeeper to fill the inn. After I built the second more modern inn (one of my favourite Nordic buildings), I put an innkeeper in it. After a while, I noticed, that the happiness started to get down for seemingly no reason. I discovered, that the innkeeper from the yellow inn had emptied the green roof inn totally. There was nothing left! On this picture, I've just relocated him to the other inn and he has started to carry it back. I've also noticed, that very much alcohol can be stored in one inn.

Here with 2 inns it's manageable. But I see problems to get an equal distribution on a big map with several inns.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 07, 2018, 12:05:48 PM
That goats can only live with cheap corn from overseas must be a rumor planted for trade war.^^ Also that Tom the locker doesn't want people playing with sweet bouncing goats. I have never seen any.. *looking around for Brads plank thingy* ;D

With lumber it looks like a firewood issue only. All other problems are solved by being under Wood and not mixed with other materials. Just imagine if together with bricks. Setting this limit to calm down your lumber mill and to keep logs available for firewood your brickmaker will start to strike and your glassmaker also or vice versa. It would end up in not using this limit at all and to micromanage everything without solving the firewood. To have bricks and tiles in one flag is already not really good but to put also wood and glass into it will make it even worse. At least that's my concern.

Discrepancy's idea of making firewood from both logs or lumber sounds to me as a simple and efficient solution. So lumber as modern counterpart of logs with a wood industry turning them directly into lumber for efficient building and trade. Making firewood would be just the same as in old times using the same category. You would just shift your cutters to use lumber and probably you would make firewood by sawmills anyway.

About building time I also agree with DS that it's to short in general. My current rule is 1 work per recourse used in building. So a log cabin made from 36 logs and 12 stone needs 48 work. To include lumber, logs as building material can need a nerf in required work time. That sawing lumber makes sense in a way Nilla is talking about since a long time. Let's say to use a log in building needs 2 work and a lumber only 1 work because it is already in a suitable shape. Then the effort of running a lumber mill can pay off and makes sense besides looking nice.

So far my current opinion and more convinced of lumber than before. :)

The Innkeepers seem to be in a trade war also.^^ That's not easy to solve and actually intended since the Tavern should be able to get stuff from the brewing Ale House. And the Ale House has to be a storage location to store it in itself.

Edit wanted to say that the idea was actually to have an Ale House in early game and to run a Tavern/Brewery combination later. Or to use the ale house then as brewery. So some things to play around with but two taverns getting stuff from outside will not like each other and only a market between probably solves it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 07, 2018, 12:55:32 PM
about lumber vs wood vs firewood...

the thing i find very sad is we cannot set a number produced for each case. the number produced are set in the rawmaterialfile.rsc
i would love to say : 1 log = 10 firewood, 1 lumber = 4 firewood but we cant. the number is set once and have to deal with that number
another thing i find it sad, it is the time it takes to make a production. again you cannot set different number for different production. if you take by lumber mill, i would love to see it produce firewood to if the player want that, but woodcutter takes 2 works units to make a batch, while my lumbermill take like 12 units to make a lumber. so if my lumbermill would do firewood, it would be 6 times slower than the real woodcutter. if i would speed it up, i would also speed up the lumber and making lumbers every seconds... would be insanely too fast.

this game need to be able to set the amount created and the time it takes for each recipe.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 07, 2018, 01:26:45 PM
This time I don't understand your arguments @Tom Sawyer. Lumber flagged together with wood is not a firewood issue. Or wrong; it is also a firewood issue, but it's mainly a raw material issue. It makes the primary production of logs less efficient. It takes away the possibility to use the limit for logs for the forester; the only limit I regularly use, in my way of playing. That's the part I don't like. In my world logs is the importand basic for lumber, as well as for firewood.

OK, you're right, when you say that the limit for bricks, rooftiles and lumber stays more or less useless, when you put them together. It already is today, with bricks and rooftiles. But as little as you would be able to "calm down" the lumber mill with these 3 materials together, you could "calm it down"  together with logs. Here it has an unpleasant influence on the foresters instead of the brickmaker. You don't take away possible extra micromanagement, you introduces a new one. Gives us another "useless" limit; logs+lumber.

I've played a lot with Red's big mod lately, where brick, rooftiles, lumber, glass and thatch has the same flag. I had some issues with thatch as fodder for my horses, but never because of too much micromanagement of the producers of building materials. I have more problems here with lumbermill and forester.

I also approve the idea of making firewood from lumber, if needed. But if it was realistic I would like, that a forester made 2-3 logs and 2-3 firewood from one tree and that a lumber mill would make 2-3 lumber and 2-3 firewood from each log. Thatīs how it works in real. (Maybe some other numbers, I haven't really thought about what would make sense). Something like this would maybe also solve the problems @RedKetchup is talking about.

I don't think a market in between inns would solve anything. (Do alcohol land at the market?It hasn't before, but of course it's possible to make it that way.) But even if some would land there, my guess is, that the innkeepers "at war" would sweep it away in no time. But a lower limit on how much alcohol could be stored in an inn, would solve much. Probably not if you're short on alcohol but if you have enough. At least they wouldn't steal from eachother, if they have enough themselves. I hope I will be able to buy enough grain soon, to also produce in my inns, to see what happens then. I guess, the war will go on.  ;) :P
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 07, 2018, 01:35:12 PM
but @Nilla also we cannot ask 2 things to drop on the ground in same time, it would be one or the other randomly or by recipe choice.
i would also loved to being able to ask drop 2-3 lumber + 2-3 firewood.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 08, 2018, 03:01:22 AM
I made some tests to have this lumber thing more clear for myself.

First I put lumber in Custom5 together with bricks running a brickyard, a couple of foresters and the lumber mill from DS Industry, trying to find a setup without micromanaging where nothing is overproduced and enough fuel for heating homes is save. The first problem came soon. The brickmaker stopped at the limit hit by the lumbermill. The limit had to be raised until it was hit again. I finally gave them a 999999 to let it run. But the brick limit is important. It controls the use of clay and firewood. If I have 100 bricks and need 100 tiles I can go to the brickyard ordering tiles setting the limit to 200. It will make these 100 tiles and then waiting for next order without burning all my firewood for stuff I don't need and only stopping when clay is out or people start to freeze. That's not the only problem but for me already the point to cancel the idea of a brick/lumber combination.

Next with lumber in Wood. Burning clay and firewood into bricks under control but I have to look at stock piles to see if the wood counter in my overview window means logs or lumber. I don't really feel comfortable with that but at least I know it is wood in any shape and can be cut into firewood. Setting a limit stops foresters and lumber mill at the same time and with the current ratio of logs and lumber. So my little wood industry under control? In a way yes, but.. I have enough wood to build but not to build everything since logs and lumber are not interchangeable on building sites. Similar with fuel. I know I have enough wood to turn it into fuel but I have to switch my cutters if it is only lumber. That's not nice and I have to keep an eye on my fuel counter. For some reason I always also had logs and never only lumber. Probably because both forester and mill stop at the same time. So my cutters could continue cutting logs making the limit free for the foresters bringing new logs. The amount of lumber was more or less stable because I did not build. Only sometimes the mill got logs to make some turns.

In summary the second scenario works somehow but I cannot say that I like it. I want full control and it is killing my fun in this game if I have to run around in my growing town checking productions manually or to have a screen full of UI like a spaceship console.

For me the only really good solution with lumber as new material in game is a separate flag. Maybe to free custom3 to have Glass, Lumber, Clay and Bricks in a row from custom3 to 5. But where to put charcoal which is also an important limit to save firewood or what else to remove. I don't know yet.

One little thing I noticed with the lumber mill. I would like to hear it working, sawing wood. It was confusing to not get feedback from this building. It's ToolType _toolType = Saw; Please :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 08, 2018, 04:57:38 AM
TOM,you are finding  what we players have found. there is no best way to sove it with the limits we have.as RED says we need to be abe to set products individually. when you put 1 chain completely under a imit flag it stops it at a weird point. happened with RED's fodder. the chain would get overstocked at the bottom end,the fodder,and shut down the fertiizer.this led to starvation since the chain coudnt produce food. RED split the chain between a few limit flags.now it will fiunction smoother but then the fertiizer and fodder gets stored everywhere. then there had to be more adjustments.
       
         in your case the wood chain would be stopped at a bad spot. logs,firewood,lumber all from trees is all affeced at once.you will notice it when the bannies start to freeze.in your test, what hit the imit and stopped the brick? if you needed those items for construction,then the laborers shoud be moving them out of storage to the build sites. then they arent counted against the limit.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 08, 2018, 06:03:28 AM
Brad, actually I'm satisfied how it works and with current North flags almost everything can be controlled perfectly. Only for lumber I don't have a free slot at the moment and cannot really include it. In my test, lumber stopped the brickyard trying to save logs for firewood.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 08, 2018, 12:08:57 PM
I agree; the "flagging" in the North is better than with any other mods. But also here, there are some more and some less useful limits. Say textiles; I guess, no one can really use it (except at the very beginning of a game when you only have hides) but on the other hand, I don't see any alternatives.

Quote
But the brick limit is important.

Sorry@Tom Sawyer, I don't agree. I never use it. Probably for the same reason, I don't use the textile limit; it regulates more than one product. And you need to have some control on both anyway and develop a strategy for this with other means. You described the only case, I can think of, where it might be useful; You have a lot of bricks and will produce a certain amount of rooftiles. But this is a very rare case, that if you play well, you also ought to avoid; I mean running out of roof tiles, while you have a lot of bricks. One more thing, that also makes this limit less important, is that you don't need, that awfully much bricks. I use to micromanage clay pit, bricks, rooftiles anyway. I would have done it the same way, also if the both brick products had their own limits.

But of course, setting lumber together with bricks takes away the possibility to regulate the lumber mills with a limit. I agree on that. And lumber could be a much more important product than bricks. The DS buildings need quite a lot of it. If you have enough logs (which I don't have here in this game but normally in a Nordic game) it makes very much sense, to produce a surplus of lumber to sell to the "Wood merchant" to a good price. It would be good with a working limit. I can agree on that, too. And I see no way to make it, unless it gets its own.

You didn't have a working limit for the lumber mill in your wood limit experiment either, Tom. And it this case, you also made it much more uncertain, to use the limit for wood for the foresters. To me it's an important limit, that I use, to regulate the production in my forests. You say, that you have the "wood industry under control". But this is only in a case, where you actually can make firewood from lumber. In this game I use the jetty lumber mill. It can't produce firewood from lumber. So a lot of lumber would cause a lack of firewood. Besides what you already describes; you may not be able to build what you want. To put lumber and logs together; you win nothing, but lose much more than together with bricks.

Other alternatives to "free" a flag for lumber would be to put glass and bricks together. You've already put clay and sand together, both need firewood, so they are somehow already connected. I don't use the glass limit much either, only occasionally as a "reminder", not to control the production, like I do for logs. But glass might be a more important product than bricks. It has a more sustainable raw material than bricks and can be used to produce profitable glassware. I think, I would prefere glass+bricks over lumber+bricks. (logs+lumber is still worse case for me).

Other limits I rarely use are those for coins, gold and silver; no goods you produce. It wouldn't hurt now, to put some of them together and free a flag or two. But if I remember it right, you have plans to make some production and DS already have a silver mine, and in such a case, these limits get another purpose, that should be considered by changes. Another limit I don't use is "utensils". Not so sure what it contains, but I guess, it's all these "odd" building materials; iron fittings, traps, wheel barrows, wagon parts and maybe also lampoil (or where is it else?). I'm not sure, that these things need limits, (too many products to really use a limit) but I guess they have to "flagged" in some way and I see no categories, where they would belong. Salt and sugar with a separate limit is nice but maybe not necessary. They could be flagged as inedible food (or maybe as an utensil). That would work, as long as you only buy these products. But what is, if you use other mods and starts to produce salt and/or sugar? I had a lot of EB saltmines in my last Nordic game, I don't remember, that I used any limit. I think I just produced as much as I could. But in any case, I don't think that you ever would produce so much, that it would disturb the food limit, even if it counted as food.

It's not easy and there's no obvious solution. It will be interesting to see what you'll decide @Tom Sawyer. Usually you find good solutions to various problems. (Just please, don't let it stay in wood)

I just see I didn't make many screenshots yesterday; only these both.

First picture

My extended inn. Look like the innkeeper need more space to store all the booze he stole from his competitor. ;) But actually; I find the Farmer's Workplaces looks fun on these location. At least I like it much better than on a red house. I hope you don't disapprove, if I "misuse" the buildings, Tom.

Second picture


Not sure I should show this. A really stupid mistake I had to pay a lot for.  :-[ :(
Maybe it will help someone to be a bit more careful, than I was, if I swallow my pride and show it. I wanted to demolish the store on the docks. After I finally got some eggs (I don't know how many times I had to order before I got some) I wanted to build a Jetty Chicken Coop on that spot instead, but I demolished my beautiful and expensive hospital instead. :(
It is a bit difficult to locate buildings right and to "find" the right building, if you want to demolish anything on the jetties. My advice; better control it an extra time. I will from now on.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 08, 2018, 01:52:11 PM
you have weird flags over there. i think utensils is crafted items. they could be using forged. custom 0 or 1.NILA talks like there are more splits glass and brick are construction material,custom 5.silver and gold is precious,custom 6. TOM do you have a differest setting? can you give us your list?
     only issue i have is  when adding mods to the north what will happen? will there be conflicts to cause fatal errors? will a good from a mod not interact. say you make lumber via a KIDDs sawmill will it not be used as lumber per the north in building? same woud apply to salt and some other items.

        whatever the limits TOM used for version 6 is working well. the bloomery doesnt function but that is due to having iron ore not bloom. the building chains haven't failed to function. so far only the older CC glass maker has failed to work since it couldn't store the new sand.the shorehouse did produce clay that was used by the nordic trade post. with TOM and RED's codings,many things do work more than expected. am surprised the game didn't give double tags on several items.no majpr conflicts especially if TOM is using different limit flags.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 09, 2018, 12:43:35 PM
Yes @brads3, the flags are different in the North. You can see them all at the production menu at the picture.

How do we use these limits by playing? There are several different ways.

A. Active regulate how much of a certain material is produced. You would have some overproduction, if you raised the limit. but you let deliberately the workers stop, when the limit is reached. The unemployed worker makes something else (mostly laborer's work) until some of the store is consumed. Then he goes back to work automatically. A nice and easy way, to hold the store on a good level without micromanagement.

B. A reminder, that it's time to micromanage. When the set limit is reached, you take the worker away and assign him to something else.

C. A help to hold track on the amount of a certain good in store. You just need to take a fast look on the overview window and don't need to search in the town hall inventory (if you have a townhall) to know how much you have.

D. Look at my beloved statistics in the production menus and graphs. To help long term planning.

We could also add, that these flags also decide how something is stored. As player, you have no means to regulate this, only adapt your playing to the facts. But as modder, it's also important to consider this. (remember the fertilizer next to meat and cabbage in barns ;) )

How do I normally use the limits?

A. Active regulating
I must confess, I don't use this option much. In a normal game, I use it for logs and firewood. If I have foresters, it's very convenient to let them work towards a limit. When they stop, they don't stop working as foresters, but they don't cut any trees, they only plant. This means, that when you later need logs, there are more mature trees and the productivity is high. It's an excellent limit to use automatically. This is the reason, I protest so much against using one limit for logs and lumber. Firewood is also good to regulate this way, especially in a Nordic game. Most firewood is used in winter, people use to stock their houses in spring and in late summer the stores are full again. The cutter get unemployed and work as laborers. A perfect time, to send them out in the woods to pick blueberries (without doing more micromanagement, than marking wild food to be collected). When winter comes and there's no more food to collect, the stores of firewood starts to sink and the cutter will automatically go back to work. I might use this also for charcoal and (iron)ore, especially if I have a lot of laborers.

B. Reminder
I use this a lot, especially at the beginning, when you don't have enough people to staff every production site. A tailor produces clothes until the limit sign shows. Then I reassign him to something else, maybe a blacksmith. He produces iron until the sign shows and I can change the production to tools, until that sign is shown and he will go back to the clothing. (or something like that).

I've also used this for clay. When the limit is reached, I let the worker produce bricks until all clay is gone, than again clay to the limit and after that rooftiles until the production stops. This is what I mean, when I say " develop other strategies" than to use the brick limit, when there are two products in the same limit. To put clay and sand together in one limit complicate this a bit (I make the same with sand/glass.) You have to pay more attention, but so far, it still works in this game.

C. I look at the overview to see, that there are enough food, fuel, clothes, and tools for your Bannis at the moment. It's also good to see quick, that you have enough raw materials to produce these essential things and enough building materials to develop your settlement.

D. Normally I use the statistics for food and fuel. Sometimes also for clothing and tools. Seldom for other things.

I've been thinking a bit lately, about setting these flags and limits. If i had a wish on what I would like to have ; it would be each food category a limit of its own. I would find that far more interesting, than many other now separated categories (in the North as well as in the CC way of flagging). This would open new ways to regulate the over all important production of food automatically. I don't know, if I really would use it, if I had the possibility, but it would be interesting to try.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 09, 2018, 02:30:57 PM
if you need to find something specific in the inventory.it is handy to have another townhall and leave it set to alphabetical.lot easier to find the amount of brick or glass.i do wish the townhall could sort by flag all food or textiles in 1 menu would be useful.

        yes,they limits do matter to storage and i think we need more barns for some items. REd and EB made good market sets.and the other modders have adjusted from storing everything so we dont mix fertilizer with food now. but most barns store general items not the newer items. sometimes you want to quick store things and then have a merchant farther away move them. so a market isn't the right option.plus some markets don't fit the style of the town.they are nicer and belong in towns. like now i have a forest village producing several things like lumber with only a pile or NECORA's pine shed.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 10, 2018, 02:22:15 AM
About lumber.. That's not only my decision since it is Discrepancy's content. I don't have lumber or sawmills yet and just want to have a better solution for his mods than putting it together with bricks. By default (without patching) it would be there.

I put the 6.1 beta flags in attachment @brads3. I don't mind to discuss them to find a better place for lumber or other improvements. It is in two sheets because it slightly changes in late game. To the mentioned flags it needs some explanation.

Utensils are a category for various crafted things like glassware, pottery, traps and also lamp oil (which is a candidate for a separate flag). It's using custom0 and fully compatible with CC "Crafted". I just think that "Utensils" hits this small and occasionally used stuff better and tools or clothes are crafted items too. Also I want a short noun but maybe someone finds a better term. To set this limit in game doesn't make much sense or only to avoid overproducing anything from there. It's actually a collection category to not confuse important resources. To make them uncategorized to free a flag for lumber is tricky and they could not be imported anymore.

Textiles is indeed also not much used as limit and it can be an option to join it with any other raw materials stored in barns. At least it is used for wool production, tanning and linen weaving. Also for special storage. Changing this flag should be well thought.

Salt is separate not to limit production. But to make it able to be auto-imported, provided in markets and to keep track of it in overview window. Sugar joins this category in late game being also an additive for food processing. They can be in another category but players who like to preserve food will lose these trading and overview features.

Sand was in a separate flag in 6.0 and had to join clay because Alcohol was used again for happiness pushing crafted goods to custom0 for better compatibility. Actually I wanted sand together with ore (quartz as another raw material from the ground) to keep Clay as counted building material. But it's also ok for me this way. I want to use clay mainly for old frame houses made from wood and clay with waddle and doub construction and sand joins it later when clay becomes a raw material for brick making. Maybe it can be an option to put clay, sand and ores into a "bulk goods" category stored on piles and used as limit for miners. It would be a loss of control over specialized materials but would make a flag free for lumber. Not sure about this. Actually I like the clay and ore counter.

Other opportunities are in the trading system. I use custom6 and 7 to mark different trade goods. Counting gold and silver separate is only a side effect of it but nice to have since gold together with cheap silver becomes a meaningless number. Custom8 is the old currency with gold and silver including the old penning coin while merchants in the industrial late game work money based with custom9. So it's a construct of multi used flags to create this by regions and time diversified trading system. Taking away one flag there will flatten it.

The question for me in every case of a change is if perfect control of lumber adds more fun to the game than the feature I have to remove for it. Also compared to having just generic wood. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 10, 2018, 09:21:37 AM
when i set the mod order up,i debug test it to check for blank flags at the townhall and trade post. then i enable the NORTH and run it. the test can show conflicts and what items might either be missing or double tagged.since i can't debug test with the NORTH,the test isn't foolproof.i can say i have 3 blank tags,white mulberry,fodder,and 1 unknown.the double tags i do have are from the pine mod,maple sap,eggs,flax. those have always been that way. in playing i haven't seen a major issue yet.
     
            i did have a crash on the last map that i couldn't determiine why. there were 2 boats on the river that had already left the trading posts.so it shouldnt have been a boat coming onto the map.when i checked the bannies,i found a gatherer picking up something.he had been in that spot for a while.would be quite odd for that to be the issue.1 boat looked to be less than 10 spaces from disappearing off the map.nothing on the map was happening different or new to pinpoint what caused the error.i made very little adjustments to the mod order after.so there may be an error in the calculations i can't see still.
            considering the way i have this set up,i am surprised the game lets the mods interact as well. the CC version being a 1.06,i thought the brick and glass chains would have more issues.i did use the CC shorehouse to produce clay and the clay was used to build the nordic trade dock.from experience that is a shock.the CC glass factory would not store RK sand.i actually thought the glass factory was causing the error.i stopped work and set it to destroy.without a worker,the game still crashed. i did debug test and found issues that fixed the salt. not tested yet with the north enabled.
   
             the custom 0,utesils/crafted, is usually used for end of chain trade out items. i see no issues with it being used for wheel barrows or wagon wheels. extra items under that flag won't cause any issues. salt as custom 1,forged, is odd. most have it under mineral.so far it is stored as such in piles.if this is working and the other mods can use the salt,the i wonder if this is a good flag for your lumber.as long as the game still used the lumber back and forth between mods,it might be a good fit. custom 2,fabrics,i never understood the need for that.fabrics could have been set under textiles and this flag could be used somewhere else.you did that  with glass splitting it from the construction flag. i don't understand why you split the "precious" items into 3 flags,but haven't seen it cause an issue.most of what you have set is the same as the other modders.
         i agree with you that there should have been a better discussion when the flags came out. more modders should have had input to how they could be used.some of them are easy to confuse. some things fit under 2 flags. like clay or sand under raw material or mineral?
           
         my main question is how does a building decide to store an item to use it?does the building read the item say clay as clay or as the flag and item both? does a salt house need to know salt as mineral or just salt?   i know not all items are the same. we had charcoal that wouldn't work as charcoal between the pine and CC mods.same name but 2 different items to the game.NECORA did fix that 1.we still have eggs and eggs.his eggs are found from bird nests but can't be used to make the dock chicken hut. that is why i am very surprised how much does  work now.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 10, 2018, 09:49:44 AM
You're right @brads3, a better discussion from the beginning would have been good. A modder can go 2 ways; follow the flags, that were settled, even if they don't fit his mods or make his own, and take the compatibility problems. I've always found, that you've made the right decision @Tom Sawyer, to go your own way. Not everything need to be compatible with everything else. I can choose mods. I don't need them all at the same time. And this way; @brads3 has his fun!  ;)

I do understand how difficult it is to set the right "flags". Often an improvement of one aspect, gives trouble somewhere else. We can take one change since the latest version; iron bloom. It used to belong in one flag together with iron. I've noticed the change a long time, but haven't said anything about it. Simply because I don't know yet, if I like the change or not.

Of course it's good to have a working limit for iron only. It's a quite important limit, that works far better now without iron bloom. But the disadvantage is, that iron bloom has to be put somewhere else, and it looks like you've "hidden" it as food, @Tom Sawyer.  It doesn't disturb any food limit. That's not the point, but it's stored everywhere where food is; in many barns and markets but not in the Warehouse, where I would want it. I even found some at the specialized Jetty Food Market. Of course this makes the production of iron less efficient. You can say, that it could be found in many barns before as well. That's right, but most of it stayed in barns close to where it was produced. Now vendors use to get it and there's seldom anything at all in the close barns. (Maybe you have excluded it from your Nordic markets @Tom Sawyer, I have never seen any in the one Lanthandel I have, but on the other hand, it is located close to the blacksmiths, so it would be used fast and before the bloom from the Wagon Vendors and Jetty Food Market far away).

I have also seen, that these "utensils" are stored in the Warehouse. I can only see one purpose; a possibility to "drag" lampoil to the mines. But you don't need much lampoil, so I find the disadvantage bigger than the advantage. I would rather prefere iron ore and iron bloom in the Warehouse.

Speaking about lamp oil: is the Farmer's Workplace the only place, you can produce it? I don't really mind. It works good, but it's harder to find a good looking location for the workplace with the red houses. It isn't a stand alone building.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 10, 2018, 11:20:02 AM
hmmmm, iron bloom to me is iron ore and is mineral.stores in piles or the pine material shed.if my memory is right it can store in 1.06 markets,specifically Slinks industrial market or the nordic wharehouse. i wish the iron bloomery would work and make iron from iron ore.i actually need iron to build a foundry to process it. 1 of the buildings that won't work with this crazy mod order.
       most of your points is storage issues.some items we want scattered around like tools,herbs,and clothing,etc.many we want to control better.i think we need barns for laborers to drop stuff into.and then we can use the markets from RED or EB to pull the items to a production area.in the newer CC versions,they had some options. there were cellars,very handy for adding storage to a workplace, and small barns.they did help for some specific flags. to me it makes sence to have a small shed even for the workers to drop stuff into.placed near the iron foundry,brick maker, or glass factory would keep the items there until needed.when you need it somewhere,you can use a market to move it.  DS's old industry market square was handy for that . it would move and store items to be processed without moving everything else.
       to me the market system to the game is wrong.if you place a market near those production buildings,it will fill to a certain amount.controlled by %. once it hits the storage item limit of the market,the vendor then moves excess. this is the issue, he moves it to where? i have seen some markets work together and move goods between the 2.normally thou,i think they move it to a barn or pile within a set distance.this scatters the items.doesn't seem to be a way to make a chain of markets to move items across a map. maybe someday we understand them and can be able to do that better.

       i wish all markets used the "super vendor" trick. seems to be something LUKE coded. a vendor would supply workplaces. a wood cutter would have a small pile for logs and the vendor would drop logs into it.a tailor would have a shed for textiles and a vendor would keep it filled.this would help productivity. it would also help stop the scattering that affects your playstyle also. there is so much to these markets in the coding that even the modders can't see or don't quite understand. i think LUKE has more hiden away.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 10, 2018, 05:25:06 PM
@Nilla , if you are using the Industry Mining in the North mod, there are 2 buildings where Lamp Oil can be made: Press Shed (https://banishednorth.ds-mods.net/buildings/food-production/press-shed/) & Industry Oil Kiln (https://banishednorth.ds-mods.net/buildings/resource-production/industry-oil-kiln/)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 11, 2018, 04:26:01 AM
Oh yes, thank you @Discrepancy. Didn't think of them. I wanted to add that mod, when the settlement is a bit bigger, anyway.

A lot of talking about flagging lately. Now I want to talk about this game. The happiness system works. I have decided, that I will try to keep 5 stars over all. It works mostly and I think it pays off. Maybe not quite as extreme as I try to run this game. (I try to have all houses in the happiness circles). A few people still have the unexplainable 3 stars, even if the rest of the family have 5. It's also interesting to see; they don't need much alcohol, even with a larger population. I need less now than at the beginning. It somehow looks like the fact, that there's an inn with alcohol, makes them stay happy, also without drinking it. I still have to laugh over the innkeeper. Normally, I don't occupy any. And since they need so little alcohol, I only import it. (Last year 180 people used 44 alcohol). I had some in my stores, so I let innkeepers work in both inns and watched them carefully. First they fetched it from the store, then they both went to the inn of the other and stole 100 ale each. They went on this way until I unemployed them.  :D

I still have some difficulties to get enough food variety. The merchants don't bring much vegetables and I'm still experimenting with orders/no orders. You know, how stingy I am, so I will avoid ordering fees. This settlement produces a lot of smoked fish and meat. That's the main export. I also sell furs and cheese, some lamp oil and glassware and very little herbs, wool coats and steel tools. I buy grain and vegetables (partly ordered). I also buy salt, sugar, some alcohol, hides and leather without order. Salt so far only to produce cheese, sugar because I want to "stretch" the berries. I don't pick enough to support the population with fruit all year and it's cheaper, to buy sugar and produce jam, than to buy expensive fruit. But I think, I will soon start to buy a little extra fruit as well. I don't produce quite enough leather to support everyone with a warm coat. I have more meat and milk, than I need, so I don't want to build more pastures. I'm sure, that warm coats pay off in a harsh climate. I could make fur coats but I think it's better to sell fur and buy the cheaper leather or hides.

I am also thinking about how to make at least some autotrading. We have discussed this before and I find it harder in a Nordic game than vanilla. But I will make a try. I think you have to separate buying and selling more than I do now, to succeed. And for that I will need a few more ports. I have also noticed, that the same merchants, that arrive to the small dock comes to the now very well working jetty port, but I haven't built any food ports yet. I have an idea, to autotrade for food in such ports and have a few big ports, to sell for coins and to buy other things than food manually. I'll let you know how it works.

I have some notes with production numbers, but I want some more, before I write about it. Generally I find the production on the jetty low (except fish and water), and the production of smoked fish and meat high. I will give you some numbers the next time.

First picture

It's really not a nice picture but it shows the funny innkeeper, carrying stolen ale between the inns.

I also show my inventory. There's a lot of fish and meat! Too much! You can see, that I've ordered beans, but when I do, there's often not enough grain. It's June and the berries are all consumed, there's not even some jam left. I think last year was very cold, with a small harvest of blueberries. Good years there use to be some jam left this time of the year. But as I said; I will start to buy some extra fruit soon.

The over all look of the settlement isn't very pleasing; somehow too crowded and without structure. First I have no talent in building nice, I guess, that's the main thing. I don't want the houses directly "at" eachother, but still need everything close to use same "happiness buildings". It hasn't turned out very well.  :-\

Second picture

The overview of the jetties isn't much different; too crowded to make the nice looking buildings justice.  :-[ But at least (more or less) everyone is happy! :)

Third picture

Only if I look at a small part of the settlement, I can find, that it looks good. Not thanks to me; thanks to the modders, who make such nice looking buildings. :)
I'm pretty sure, that some of you guys could do this even nicer, by placing the buildings differently and replacing some trees with decorations of other kind, but first; if I try, I normally over decorate and it looks stupid and second, I wanted the houses in the forest, I want them like this and not all in a rows, along a street. That's the way I build.  :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 11, 2018, 10:00:55 AM
your inn keepers could be helpful.if you made ale on 1 side of the map would they work to move it between them completely across the map? thinking like they are alcohol markets.would be helpful for markets to do that . if only the bannies would co-operate and balance the goods.

does the health affect happiness? if you ran low on fruit and health dropped some ,would the happiness drop also?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 11, 2018, 02:39:52 PM
I haven't produced any ale yet, but I guess, if I did in one of the inns, the innkeeper from the other inn would steal it all, while the other was busy producing. (Only guessing haven't tested.) And I would not like the markets to be this way. The same goods would go from one market to the next, round and round. Goods in far away barns would never be touched.

I don't think, that the happiness gets down, when the health drops. I think they are totally independent from eachother.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 12, 2018, 01:26:44 AM
Maybe you find some of your pictures not looking nice because you made them in rain and fog. Your sweet DS jetty shores you always catch in perfect sunlight...  ;D

The scattered iron bloom I have fixed. Tried it together with ore as @brads3 suggested and it seems to be a better solution. It's perfectly hidden there. In game it looks like they pick up some ore, do their job and put the bloom stuff back on this pile when picking up new material. Market vendors completely ignore it now.

For the fighting innkeepers I don't have a good solution yet.

I'm interested in your trial to find a setup for auto-trading. What purchase option you use or would like to have.

Another question is what of the current nordic buildings you would expect to be build from lumber instead of logs. If I include this idea. Generally asked, not only @Nilla.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 12, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
This is not an easy game. I really don't know how I will go on with it. So far, I have had some minor problems getting a good food diversity, but finally with the new food trading port, I get enough vegetables and grain. I've also started to buy some fruit. So the problem with a bad food diversity could have been gone if..........

......I would have had enough to sell.  :-\

This is of course my own fault. From the beginning until lately, I've had more export goods, than I could possibly use in my 3 ports. Recently my stores were over full with smoked fish and meat. A few years ago I only produced a little less food, than I consumed and since I buy food, it was OK. Obviously, I haven't paid enough attention and expanded the production the way you have to in Banished and suddenly, there's no more smoked meat/fish left in my store. I need to buy 15 000-20 000 food each year and I don't produce enough, to buy that much. There's no crisis yet. As usual my stores are well filled, but not for many years, unless I do something.

What can I do? I don't smoke all meat and fish I produce and to increase the production of fish is fast and easy done on a map like this. So, theoretically I could increase the production of smoked fish........ if it wasn't for the firewood. This is a lake map, there's no good location for another forester. I already cut some spare wood, partly with the new wood cutter, partly manually and I've built some drift wood collectors on the jetty, but the production isn't very high ( NO COMPLAINS, I do like it that way! :) ). So this possibility is limited. I've started to produce a surplus of steel tools, but it takes time to get enough. I could import more salt/add a mod with salt production and salt meat and fish instead of smoking it. Maybe it could have worked, if I had started this earlier but now I don't have enough to sell to buy salt. But maybe, if I product the salt myself. I can increase the food production. But except fishing the food producers on the jetty don't produce much. Start farming now? No, I don't want that. So, I really don't know what to do! ???

I LOVE THIS GAME, WITH THESE MODS! Again: Thank you @Tom Sawyer and @Discrepancy! :)

To your last post @Tom Sawyer:
(By the way; I see that you've emigrated. Hæ, góðan dag.) ;)

Certainly iron bloom is better off together with iron ore, than as it is now. But is it better there, than together with iron, as it was before? No matter where it is, it disturbs an active use of one limit. I don't know, what is better a good working limit for ore or iron?

To the innkeeper. Isn't it possible to set a limit, on how much alcohol could be stored in one inn? It wouldn't change anything, if you're short on alcohol, but at least, they would leave the alcohol from other innkeepers, if they had enough themselves.

I haven't made much autotrading, yet. The low price of some food have stopped me. It feels like cheating to buy potatoes and corn for 1 (maybe this could save me at the moment but I don't want my problems to be solved that way). My idea was to start autotrading with food in the food port and primary pay with the coins, I get from trading manually in the big ports (I've built a second one). If the merchants who come to the small docks, would have brought more vegetables, I could have tried to use them to buy food in autotrade, but I think, that I would need too many of them to get enough, that I guess it wouldn't make much sense. But maybe I'll try it anyway.

I'll think about lumber/logs. Short answer without much thinking. Early "viking buildings" only logs. Later industrial buildings only lumber. Unless it's something very special, I can't understand why some buildings need both logs (whole unprepared part of a tree) and sawed lumber. Either you cut the wood you need yourself from a log or you buy it, in different qualities from a saw mill. It looks like some modders mean, that what you call "Bretter" is lumber and what you call "Träger oder Balken" is logs. Maybe it is that way somewhere. We call all qualities from a saw mill "virke", I think you say "Holz" or "Bauholz" in a similar way.

Picture

The overall picture isn't that pleasing in sunshine either.  :-\

Look at the production. Not sure how I can get out of this.  :-[
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 12, 2018, 08:01:36 AM
am i confused or did i confuse TOM?  in my set ups,i don't have bloom. i have iron ore instead. do you have both iron ore and bloom? i always think bloom is iron ore but with a different name. i do agree with it being under "mineral" or "ores" limit flag. later in game when this flag is used for other items more,the iron processing would keep the iron ore controlled.

     i agree with NILLA on the lumber.there are buildings that are needed earlier in games that we wish didn't use it. an early game townhall or tavern,or trading post option. there are many mod options to solve those issues. nicer "city looking buildings work better with lumber,glass,or brick.

       i do like the NORTH trading systems.i think it brings a realistic challenge. 1 of those things i wish i had more experience with. i wish it could be used outside the North with other mods or games. i have seen some seed prices change. some prices might be different but i haven't done enough trading to see if different merchants change their rates.
       Nilla ,i have a merchant who brings penning,and i always try to buy some. i figure sooner or later a boat might come that will need it to buy anything.it works to keep items moving to at the trade posts. whatever coin they trade, for i add to the TP inventory. that adds vakue to trade with without needing to increase inventory of items.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 12, 2018, 10:12:59 AM
I guess, you're the one confused. ;) In the North you have iron ore (picked on the ground or dug from mines with help from logs and lamp oil) from this ore and charcoal you make a second product; iron bloom in a small bloomery or in one of DS furnaces. From the iron bloom you then make iron with help from some more charcoal. 3 different products. In earlier versions iron bloom and iron were flagged together. Now iron bloom has become food ( :-\ ???) but Tom says, Herve changed to be flagged with ore to the next upgrade.

Yes coins are good. You save space in your trading ports. But you must start to collect daler (worth 100) and not penning worth 1. Penning are more to have "suitable change.

I'm not sure, that it would work, with the Nordic prices in a vanilla game. Since everything has such a different price, oft more expensive, the production numbers will give strange (very high/very low) profits.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 12, 2018, 10:37:29 AM
my penning is valued at 10. haven't seen dalers to trade for yet. i have lots of "gem"  and deer merchants.both deer and reindeer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 13, 2018, 04:06:19 AM
Yep, I'm from Iceland.. true Viking. You did not know?^^

To limit storage capacity of the tavern would not help but I found a way to calm them down. Innkeepers are now satisfied with 100 of a kind of alcohol in their house and go idling then. Technically they are not really satisfied and looking for another resource but will never find.. that's the trick.

Yesterday I made some round and rustic tables for the ale house and gave the campfire an idling point (without increasing happiness). It looks nice with people staying around the fire and can be an option for your lone trappers walking a long way for resting.

Tomorrow on Monday I want to release this update on Steam (before Spring is over). I'm already satisfied with our beta testing, bug fixings and adjustments. Then reworking the wiki and going on with model making. For now I don't have a convincing solution to make a flag free for lumber and will try when further developing the flags for a future update.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 13, 2018, 08:19:17 AM
Nice, that you've managed to calm down the innkeeper, @Tom Sawyer.  I was sure you would find something. :) Same as I'm confident, that you'll find a solution for flagging lumber in a better way. After all, at the moment, you don't have it in the North. You'll only need to struggle, with the one or other bad working limit, if you combine mods and if you do, you must live with minor inconvenience. (ask @brads, though I'm not so sure it's always minor problems) ;)

The campfire as idling spot sounds like a good idea.

I find too, that this update very well can be "put out of its beta". I have found no further bugs or "bad" values. Perhaps you can take a look at the merchant, who want to buy wood for coins. On this map, I can never sell anything to him. It would be different on a forest map, but after all, you offers this lake map and useless merchants are never nice. So combining wood with some other product, also available on lake maps, would be nice. (I primary think on fish, maybe only salted fish, since smoked fish is a bit more profitable). I'm not sure if it's possible, to give just one product and not a whole category a higher price, but I find it could be intersting. Maybe you also want to take a look at  the balancing of smoking and salting meat and fish. I've looked a bit at it, see further down. It works as it is, but maybe smoking is a little too easy and profitable, compared to salting.

To my game
I managed the crisis (I thought) I had last time. First it wasn't as bad as it looked. The half of the "missing food" wasn't missing at all, it came from stocking the ports. The rest was possible to catch up with, by making several smaller things; increasing food production by building another couple of fisher, a couple of apiaries and putting 2 worker in some jetty production sites. I`vie also increased the production of logs with another driftwood searcher and two more small woodchopper for logs out in the woods. So now I can produce more firewood, that can be used on different places; also to produce export goods. I've started to import more salt to salt some meat/fish instead of smoking. Enough logs will long term be a problem on this map. I must find other ways to trade, than with smoked meat and smoked fish.

I said I've made some notes about production numbers. Here are some:

First I want to say, that I've looked a bit more on the building costs on the jetty. My first impression, that they are high was wrong. Compared to the Nordic buildings it's not at all expensive to build on water. Maybe even too cheap. ???

Since I've started with the jetty buildings, I will talk about those production buildings I've built, so far.

Logs and firewood
I use the drift wood searcher and search for logs only and make firewood with choppers. 2 workers produce about 120 logs. That's reasonable, about the half of a forester. Two questions @Discrepancy; how much logs/firewood does one collector/searcher get totally? The menu says, that you can use it about 5 years. That would mean about 600 logs. Is firewood the same? The investment to build it is 346. Since the logs cost 12, it's OK, but I find it expensive to demolish; 2 tools and if you only have steel tools, like I have here, it's a cost of 160. The menu also says, that you need "minimum 2 workers". Could make sense, because one single man would have difficulties, to get the heavy wet logs out of the water. But as far as I can see, it also works with one.

The jetty chopper works miserably. I've demolished it. I can understand, that you dislike the huge vanilla profit of firewood and wanted to make some changes. But these changes are already made in another way the North: There's absolutely no profit to chop firewood. 1 log worth 12 gives 3 firewood worth 4. You only use chopper to get enough fuel and you want them to make a lot.

Fish

I think you use the vanilla values @Discrepancy, so a fisher can produce a lot, if it's good located. The location is very important, so the production varies much between the sites; (250-800 for one fisher). It's nice this way. 800 is too much, but it's not easy to get. I like these things, that add value to the game; to decide, do I leave a lot of free space around, to get a lot of fish, or do I settle with less, to build tighter. Are the close stores full? Where can the fisher live? Is he happy and healthy?.... Nice!

To dry the fish isn't very profitable. It does double the amount, but the productivity is low, an average of 400 for one worker. We mustn't forget, that the input is 200. That means a worker only makes 200 food. I find, that's too low. Even a very bad located fisher makes more. Maybe in vanilla you increase the value from 1 to 2 to make a trading product. (input 200, output 800 a profit of 600, OK in  vanilla) But in the North salmon is worth 2, the same as the dried fish. In the North people don't eat more than vanilla (unless you use Ironman) but the value of the food is higher. (protein 2, vegetables 3, grain 4, fruit 5). With a balanced diet; one Banni needs food of a value of 350, also clothes and tools are much more expensive, so I guess a person needs to produce at least 450 to support himself. (This would be about 150 in a vanilla game). If dried fish would be an export product, I find it should give a profit of at least 900 (the worker can support one child or laborer as well). And dried fish is an excellent export product, when you look historically. I think the reason the people in Bergen could build these nice houses, you've made for Banished @Discrepancy, is export of dried fish. :)

We can compare this with the smoked and salted fish in the North. I export a lot of it. I find it's OK, that it takes longer to dry fish, than to smoke or salt it. But the over all profit, could be at least in the same range.

The production of salter and smoker varies a lot. They need two input products and it's not easy to find really good locations for both. The Bannis also like to carry salt around and store small amounts on every possible place.  >:( I've seen up to 2500 smoked fish but also 1200, even with enough fish/meat and firewood in the store (just not close to that smoker). The average here on this map is about 1800. 24 fish and 1 firewood makes 30 smoked fish. (1,2 for each) It's a trade profit of over 2000. But since the input is high, the increase of food is not more than 400.

The salter shows similar annual production numbers, but makes 32 salted fish from 16 fish and 8 salt, so the profit is a bit less only 1 for each, but the increase in the amount of food higher. But you need to buy expensive salt. (I know you can't argue like this, but I'll do it anyway;) 16 fish is worth 32, 4 salt is also worth 32, you make 32 salted fish worth 3 each, so the whole business makes a profit of 32. Now you can buy 4 more salt! ;) :-[

Is smoking fish too profitable? I don't know. A profit of 2000 in the North is the same as a profit of something like 700 in vanilla: Most buildings for suitable export goods have higher profits. You can't speak of overpowered, if you can support 4-5 people, but maybe it could be made a little bit harder. In this game it would hurt, if you would need more firewood to smoke the fish. The salter also used less and cheaper salt from the beginning. I know, I suggested to increase both, but I find, it ought to be more profitable to salt fish, than to smoke or dry it.

This is already far too long. I'll take the other jetty buildings next time. So Iīll only show one winter impression in the snow.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 13, 2018, 11:47:06 AM
Thank you for your notes to fish production. I checked my values and slowed down the smoking shed to limit the maximum profit. Now a salt cabin reaches a higher profit per year than a smoking shed. Taking 4 salt for 16 fish is ok I think. First, it's a realistic ratio I got from some researching and the profit is already high if you sell for good prices. As you write it's a profit of 32 for salting 16 fish from which you can buy 4 more salt or 8 additional grain or what you need and that's a lot. The formula is:

16 fish (worth 32) + 4 salt (worth 32) = 64 into 32 salted fish (worth 96). Profit = 32 * 100 (~ max turns in a year) = up to 3200 profit.

Of course it's a maximum and needs education as well as providing enough fish and salt. But one of the best trades you can make in the North. Even a fur trapper has a hard time to reach this. Doesn't need a buff in my opinion.

The formula for smoking is now as follows. The profit per fish is higher but it needs more raw fish with only 33% preserving instead of 100%. That's the main disadvantage of smoking compared to efficient but expensive salting:

24 fish (worth 48) + 1 firewood (worth 4) = 52 into 32 smoked fish (worth 96). Profit = 44 * 66 (new max turns in a year) = up to 2900 profit.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 13, 2018, 05:48:30 PM
@Nilla ,
It would be my wish to have the building (driftwood searchers/collectors) not work without 2 workers, but the code does not seem to do that. Instead it has a minimum of 2 workers which would mean the workplace could potentially 'poach' a worker from another site. It isn't something I think I can make work properly, but as it is it makes some players think they do need to workers so I will leave it as is. You are correct in the reasoning for the 2 workers though :)
The cost of the demolish/upgrade I have altered to require iron fittings instead for next release.

Jetty Firewood chopper should have the same speed as the 2x2 firewood chopper in the north (has the same work required & work time).

Next version will have an increased speed of the fish drying jetties. I'd also forgotten about increasing value of dried fish, will also be in next version.


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 14, 2018, 04:26:30 AM
@Nilla ,
It would be my wish to have the building (driftwood searchers/collectors) not work without 2 workers, but the code does not seem to do that. Instead it has a minimum of 2 workers which would mean the workplace could potentially 'poach' a worker from another site. It isn't something I think I can make work properly, but as it is it makes some players think they do need to workers so I will leave it as is. You are correct in the reasoning for the 2 workers though :)
The cost of the demolish/upgrade I have altered to require iron fittings instead for next release.

Jetty Firewood chopper should have the same speed as the 2x2 firewood chopper in the north (has the same work required & work time).

Next version will have an increased speed of the fish drying jetties. I'd also forgotten about increasing value of dried fish, will also be in next version.

Normally I want 2 worker collecting driftwood anyway, but sometimes you forget to assign them directly after it's built. That's how I saw, that it also produced with 1 worker.

Sorry about the chopper. It only made something like 120 firewood. I suppose it was bad located or had one of the few left uneducated workers (even if no uneducated should live in that area, but you'll never know), the chopper had this "idling decease" or something else not normal. I will build it once more in a good location and take another look.

The changes all sounds good.

I'll go on with my "numbers"

Food producers on the jetty

Chicken coop
Produces average 110 food and 30 fertilizer. It's very little food but it's enough fertilizer to run at least two other food producer. Every building don't have to be profitable. I can even find it good, to run a chicken coop with a low food production, to get fertilizer to grow more food in the next step. But the problem here is; the next step doesn't produce much food either.

Mushroom farm, greenhouse
Average production 240 mushrooms, 260 potatoes or cabbage. And don't forget there's a small input of fertilizer, vegetables and water. I find this is too low. I don't expect, that this greenhouse gives as much as the one from Red. That chain has to support big meadows and stables with several workers, this only itself and a part of the chicken coop and water store, but I find it's too low compared to other easier production ways.

If you grow potatoes it's easy to see, that you need an input of a few potatoes to put in the earth. I like that. But cabbage?, or peppar?, or mushrooms? You don't put them in the earth to grow some more. That's weird to a farmer's daughter. I guess you just want to compensate for not having to buy any seeds, I can understand that. But it could simply be done by a lower production than a field. I do want the output of this greenhouse lower than of a large field, but as I said, not this low.

Mollusk farm
Average production 580 for 2 fisher. It's more than greenhouse/mushroom farms but less than even a quite bad located fisher. It has no input, no influence area and you can use some mollusk to produce the quite profitable "Fisherman's catch". So a production in this range is OK. Mollusc is one of these food with the wrong price of 1 in the North. Donīt forget to change that, @Tom Sawyer.

Kitchen Kiosk
I like all the jetty buildings, but this one is specially nice. I don't have much of the other ingredients, so I produce "Fisherman's catch". A good profit, even if you never know, how much of it really lands in the trading port and how much of the expensive stew the Bannis eat. (But OK, if they like it, they can eat some, I can afford that ;) ) I haven't made any notes of production numbers, last year it was 357. I think that's quite average on this location. Input: 23 (or 26 if the mollusk would be worth 2 as the fish) output 119. If everything could be brought to the ports, it's an annual profit of 2000. In the same range as Nordic smoker and salter.

Water store
I only made one note of production; 400. It is closed for the moment. I have more water than I need in the store, because the production is high, compared to other more complicated producers and I don't need much for one greenhouse. Unlike many other products; the Bannis don't seem to like carrying it around and spread it to every possible barn, also the vendors don't seem to want it. How did you do that? That "trick" should be used for some other products as well!

One thing is missing on the jetty (at least I haven't found one). A store for fertilizer (one of these popular things, you find on every possible location). It doesn't help, that the chicken coop is located between the greenhouse and the mushroom farm. If they need fertilizer, they have to go to the pile "on land". (This also "helps" to set the production down)

To my game

The settlement is prosperous. A lot of food, clothing, tools and enough materials to build. Thereīs no surplus on logs and firewood, but so far itīs enough.

I have postponed my attempt on autotrade at the food ports. I think it only works, if you set orders and there are so many different merchants. The products from the kitchen messes things up. I suddenly had some 1000 expensive omelets in my store. I thought it would be protein, that I have more than enough myself and don't order, but obviously it's also is vegetables. At least now the merchants bring enough vegetables and grain. But I will go on and try, and eventually tell you @Tom Sawyer how I would like to have a merchant system, that works good with as much autotrading as possible.

I now have enough spare workers to start a more heavy industrial production. I've just loaded the Industry Mining in the North. Maybe I will also load the Oil Mill.

The picture shows the nice Jetty Kitchen Kiosk and behind it the Jetty School House.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 15, 2018, 02:25:40 AM
Last report from Progressonville. I loaded the DS Industry mining and realized, that this map is way too small for all these large industrial buildings. However the timing is perfect, @Tom Sawyer just published an update of the North. So I will start a new game tonight.

Summary of my impressions with this version of the North together with the jetty buildings.

I like to have a working happiness system. It's slightly irritating not to understand it in detail, but it's fun to play with and it does work. After some initial problems, I managed to have average 5* all the time. There are some people with only 3 *. Some I understand why, others not.

These two major mods I use here work good together. I would like to see small adjustments here and there on the jetty buildings, but all in all; it makes a lot of fun to play with these two mods. (One thing I haven't mentioned is the small happiness radius of the church, I would like to see it larger)

My attempts to use autotrade wasn't very successful. I've said it before; the coins and the different prices makes it difficult. But i think it could work, if you separate buying and selling to different ports.

I took a look at the "DS Industry Mining in the North" . It also includes the Oil mill so I don't need that mod separately. I have a few comments and questions to @Discrepancy.

I can see that the "black circles" are very big for some buildings. It will be a challenge to get industrial worker happy. My guess is, that it will probably not make sense to try. The distance to work would be too long and take away what you win in less idling, but we will see.


First picture

Here you can see some of the big "unhappiness circles". The text around is good. Some industrial buildings for not metals have yellow text circles. Yellow normally means happiness. Does this mean that the weaver, silver furnace, pottery kiln makes people happy? If not, I would suggest to change the color, if they do; what "kind of happiness" do these buildings provide? There are also some monuments, that for sure give happiness, again; what kind of happiness?

Second picture

I could find a small spot to build a flax farm. The menu says, that it grows between 30 and 90 F. I'm not so familiar with Fahrenheit temperatures, but I know 32 is the freezing point, so it doesn't grow at this picture (-22 C), still the farmer is planting (the man in red). Does this mean, that the plant he now puts in the deep frozen ground (a tedious job) starts to grow, when the temperature gets close to the freezing point, or is the work in winter in vain, so this is a building, that need a lot of micromanagement to be efficient?

Donīt look at the inventory.  :-[ it looks like there were few food merchants there lately. A looooottttt of fish and meat, little vegetables and grain. 

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 15, 2018, 02:45:49 AM
yes, the black circles are a detraction in happiness, the yellow add happiness.
the silver mine, finery forge, weaver, pottery kiln and iron anvil monument all have a happiness of goods, the silver anvil gives a spiritual happiness.

all info for buildings and most of added resources has been added to this website: https://banishednorth.ds-mods.net

most of the radius' I am going to alter, mostly smaller for detraction buildings in next update.

The flax farm is indeed a bit useless without micro-managing. the silly farmers will keep planting no matter what the temperature. I wish I could find a way to make them work seasonally like the crop field, but that works with a different mechanic.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 16, 2018, 03:40:02 AM
I started a new game yesterday. There were some minor problems, partly because of little things in the files, partly because of my own mistakes. I'm not sure everything is solved, yet. Anyhow I played all evening and have the impressive population of 12 (!) after 17 years.  Almost an achievement!  ;D

Why this slow development?

I like to play different kind of games. I don't want to change much mods. The main thing for me, is to test the happiness system in the new North together with some DS mods, last time the jetty, this time industrial mining. I need some variation to my last trade based game, so I want to farm. Farming is boring in a harsh Nordic climate (at least after a while). You can't do without micromanagement, so I decided; this time I'll play on "mild", so that the harvest can begin without manual start. I like challenges, mild climate isn't very challenging, so I decided to use "Ironman".

That was the first obstacle. The "Ironman" file was corrupted. Tom fixed it fast and everything was fine.

"Ironman" is normally difficult; not only do the Bannis need the double amount of food, they also need more clothes. Here with all that idling; it's brutal! I said, I like challenges, so I decided to chose the start option "Survivors". It was possible to manage the start but I'm pretty sure, that I couldn't do it on "harsh". Have anyone tried?

After a while, I thought, that there must be some incompatibility problems between the North and Industrial Mining. I had a "dot" at the menu. No good sign. A little later I read in the North thread, that other people had problems with the iron bloom. I had played 2 hours and everything worked fine. However I did wonder about one thing; Tom said, that he made the camp fire to an idling spot. I wondered why my people never used it, perhaps it was even good this way. I guess that the idling time would have been even longer, if they had interrupted their search for blueberries out in the woods, to get home to the fire to idle. But why could I play, the others not? Confused old lady; downloaded the new North version but forgot to put it in the WinData! :-[

But just because I'm confused doesn't mean I'm stupid! This made me realize, that there can't be any compability problems between a mod I don't use and another. So I took another look and saw, that the Wagon vendor was above the Industrial Mining. I know, always the latest mod over older, unless other instructions are given. After I've changed this, my "dot" at the menu is gone.

Anyhow @Tom Sawyer fixed the iron bloom. I put the new version in the WinData. The game works. I had to demolished my blacksmith, after that it produces iron and tools, everything ought to be fine. But I'm not sure it is. People still use the barn to store iron bloom. As I've understood it, it should be on stock piles. The limit is counted together with ore, that part works. Will this give me problems later? Does it help, if I demolish all stockpiles or/and barns?

OK you might say; all these things may take time but not cause the population to grow slowly. Right! But the combination "Ironman", "Survivors" and idling workers did. I didn't want too many children, so I started with the vanilla wood houses (in the North for 4 people). I wanted to start the farming before I took any nomads. That means first a trading port and to fill it with enough goods took time. My 4 adults was mostly busy, collecting food for themself and their 4 children, so I never had time to build that chapel to attract nomads. I guess it was a mistake. If I play this start once more, I would try to build the chapel faster. Things turned out very much better, as the first children became adults and I got some nomads.

First picture

The difficult start is done. Most things look good. 4 Adults support only 2 children. There's supply enough. I've just built the herbalist. When the frost comes, I'll start to build the trading post. Think a chapel would have bin the better choice.

I've cut in mods, map, and settings.

Second picture

Now 4 adults also need to support 4 children. You can see that it's much harder. Luckily one of the first merchants brought barley seeds. Also luck (or rather the cleverness of @Tom Sawyer) my Bannis found a few gold nuggets, so they could pay for it. I also spent 2 gold nuggets on 10 wool coats. I kill every deer I see, but there was seldom enough coats lately. Maybe it doesn't pay off in a mild climate, but it feels good, that they don't need to walk around in ragged coats.

Third picture

This is where I am now. Things look much better; two of the children can help with all the work, they have moved together into one of the old houses as the rest of the family built a larger house. A nomad couple has joined the community. They found that the other family could better use the new bigger house they built, so they moved in to the other old house. We expect the settlement to grow and hope we can provide for the new children.

I've cut in the content on the stockpile and the barn with the iron bloom. Can this mean trouble later?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Discrepancy on May 16, 2018, 03:56:52 AM
 :) glad you sorted out the load order causing the missing toolbar icon.


I beta tested with Ironman and also struggled on mild, I also only managed to increase population with nomads from the chapel.
Haha, if you can do this I'll be very impressed because I could never properly get my industrial settlement to its potential. keeping up food is very hard, savvy trading is needed i think.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 16, 2018, 04:33:41 AM
can i add to your confusion? have you ever saw the cloud of doom? was doing some tests last night and disabled the NORTH mod.my save game should still work,righht? well it does, but it is corrupted. when i loaded the game,i gott a black cloud that clears after the game fully loads.it happens quick.the pic is right as it starts to clear. if i had played and tried to save, the next save would be a dot instead of a map to load. weird. once i went out enabled the north and reloaded, all is fine again.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 16, 2018, 04:48:47 AM
a total eclipse ??
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 16, 2018, 04:49:48 AM
Iron bloom in barns is intended and they can also put it on piles. So everything is fine in your Ironman village.

This "black cloud" I always get after removing a mod from windata and starting a game with activated mod reloading this file from Steam with time delay on screen. That might be the explanation @brads3. Or it's the wrath of Odin because you disabled the north.. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 16, 2018, 05:09:09 AM
don't have steam and it does only happen when disabling the north.i figure it was a viking curse
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 16, 2018, 08:23:45 AM
I'm in on curse of Odin or maybe "Mars attacks"; the shadow of a huge spaceship, or both in combination; Odin sent the aliens in his wrath. ;)

I'm relieved about the bloom in barns OR stockpiles. I didn't think, that would work. I thought, that you set a flag and have to decide, where to put everything of that flag. Does this mean that also iron ore could be stores in barns as well or can you separate them?

And @Discrepancy, I'm not sure at all, that this will work. I know, that you can survive an "Ironman" game under "normal" circumstances. I've played it before. What I don't know, is if it works with this happiness reduction. And I think, I will have to use all possibilities there are, to produce enough food and resources. My "concept" is to "grow by immigration" to something like 100 inhabitants and make a farming community with uneducated people on the east side of the river. Then stop taking nomads and expand to the other side of the river, mainly with forestry and your industries. Here I will settle only educated. Sure I will try to use trade, but I don't know yet in what ways. We will see! What's the fun if we knew.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 16, 2018, 10:52:09 AM
Ore goes only on piles. Iron bloom also in barns by a secondary flag which only affects storage but not counting or limits. That the happiness change hits Ironman games more than with normal difficulty I also noticed in tests. Can make it even more interesting. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 17, 2018, 02:45:52 AM
........... Can make it even more interesting. :)
Interesting, I don't know. :-\ This game is frustrating! You know me, when there's something I don't understand, I'm not very pleased. Maybe it hasn't anything to do with "ironman"; but this game is special!  >:(

Let's start with the small things; slightly annoying but manageable for my temper. We can say, it didn't start well yesterday evening:

First picture
It's a slow game, yes. The last thing I did, the day before yesterday, was to build some more houses. I wrote;
Quote
We expect the settlement to grow and hope we can provide for the new children.
I hadn't played many month and this happens!  :'( No good omen!

The usual foreign merchant built his round house also in this settlement and now we can see the inventory. Not bad at all!

Second picture

You can see, there's only 8 wool left and the farmer has stopped producing woolcoats. I changed the production to lamp oil. I don't need any yet, but some merchants pay good for it and if there's nothing more important to do, I produce some. It took very long to change the production, so I took a look. The lady in turquoise is assigned to carry the wool away, but somehow she seems disabled and can't carry a heavy load, only one wool at the time! ??? I looked a little closer and she carries a lot of food around, so I guess, that's the reason, she can't carry more than one wool at the time. But why doesn't she put the food somewhere in a barn or in her house? I watched her go 4 times between the workplace and the small barn, always with only one wool. After that, there was a reassignment of jobs and someone else made room for the tallow in one blow. I have played a lot of Banished and I like to look at details, but I've never seen anything like this before.  :-\

Third picture
Here's another thing, I haven't seen before. Still the same year. I have decided to keep some vanilla houses. I think, it's the best way to keep the number of children on a manageable level. I actually thought about loading the jetty buildings again. It has houses of every size, but at least now this early in the game, I don't want to produce lumber and iron fittings, and I do want to grow, so I'll stick to a mixture of the nice old Nordic huts and vanilla stone houses.  (Maybe @Tom Sawyer, something to think about in a future upgrade; houses for smaller families. I know many people like houses for 4 person. Normally I don't, but in "Ironman" they do make sense.)

Anyway I don't want any fuel consuming wood houses. I guess, even in mild it pays off fast to upgrade. The man who lived in the house wasn't pleased at all. Shortly after he was thrown out, he lost a star. I haven't seen this before. I'm no frequent builder of boarding houses. When I upgrade, take nomads, lose a building in a fire, I let the people stay homeless for a short time. I've only seen them lose a star, if it takes very long, to build their first house, never by upgrading. Maybe it was the chock, first a widower, then homeless; the combination had this effect. The second house was upgraded without any losses of stars.

You may say; what's the complain; these small things happens all the time. They are Bannis! Yes, right, this was just the warm up. The Blow came a few years later. Can anyone explain this:

Fourth picture
Actually, I played several years without any trouble. And in year 22 or 23 I could even buy some glass. :) I was happy, because I need that inn. In "Ironman" I'm sure it pays off. Every work outside the "village center" takes a lot more time than usual. It takes years, to clear ground for new fields. They hardly get there, before they need to go to village to idle. If I can't get the Bannis happy fast, I don't think this village can survive.

The inn was built. I grow barely, so it was fast done to produce some ale. Everything ought to be good! But nothing happened. No change in happiness. Every house is in the circles of well, sauna, trading port, chapel and inn. Absolutely nothing! I thought, maybe Tom made some changes and I need the innkeeper working (I took him away as I used to in my last game) Innkeeper working, shortly afterwards, some people became happy. And I got happy, too. It wasn't as many who got happy, as in my last game, but all the same; it works. A working innkeeper doesn't really matter, when I use the alternative "Import alcohol", he works as a laborer anyway.

After some time the happiness dropped to the initial 3 stars. I did absolutely nothing! I thought, maybe the people doesn't like, that the innkeeper is out in the forest, picking blueberries but I can't let him produce so much ale (even if the Bannis drink a lot) but there's another option; to let him make roasted meat. It's a decent profit, so why not? After a while the Bannis became happy again. Weird! And it became even weirder. The happiness soon dropped again. Even with a meat producing innkeeper. ???  >:(  ??? >:(

I was lucky (or not?). I happened to have a save, just after the happines started to rise for the first time. I usually don't make many saves, only when I make a brake and leave the computer. Of course, I had to go back and see, if I can find any reason for this strange up and down. I think I've played these 1―-2 years 5 times. I can only say; it has nothing to do with the innkeeper; if he works, if he produces or not, doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with, if I take the nomads, that came that spring, or not. I see absolutely nothing unusual, that could cause this. Every time I play; this up and down!

WHAT IS THIS??
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 17, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
I think if the happiness change hits Ironman a bit to much then a few things can be made easier. For example to give the wooden chapel a priest option to reach full happiness earlier in game. Or to make barley a bit stronger since it has lost the preservation bonus of edible ale. Actually it should be something adding options to solve the challenge rather than just increasing any amount. Maybe to preserve cabbage to improve the supply of vegetables using salt and milk for this stuff I don't dare to write because of this cliche with which you would tease me.^^ Maybe you have a good idea.

For this up and down in your graph I don't have an explanation. On first glance it looks like out of alcohol but you would know it if that would be the case. Maybe I can find something looking at it in game if you upload or send me your save file.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 17, 2018, 02:26:33 PM
I think, too that it's almost impossible to play "Ironman" if you aren't able to raise the happiness in a reasonable time. The biggest problem is to clear enough land to expand fields and pastures. It's bad enough that they need to go home and eat all the time. With all that idling, it gets too much.

A possibility to put a priest in the chapel is one good thing. Maybe also a possibility to consume a small amount of alcohol without glass (if you understand what I mean). It took a very long time in this game before a merchant came, that offered glass to build a inn. (or maybe you don't need the alcohol with a working priest) I know, some people would like to have a mini version of brick and glass making, where you don't need to import the first material. This could solve this problem. Personally I'm quite fond of the idea, that you need to "buy the technology" to be able to produce these "advanced materials". Small simple workshops would take away that feeling.

As you say; more ways to increase the "value" of the basic food would be fine. Today you can do it with meat and fish in several ways, with wheat and rye and with berries, something for vegetables would be good, maybe also barely. If you for some reason, ;) (I wouldn't tease you) don't like the lactic acid treatment of cabbage, there could always be drying of different vegetables; mushrooms, beans.

I made some more tests;

First I replaced "Ironman" with "Norseman" (no crash or something) but these happiness waves, were still there. Then I started a new easy game; Norseman, Farmers. I didn't had these waves but I only got a few people happy.

At the blue arrow; every house had well, sauna, market, chapel, inn with alcohol. Only a few very young children became happy.
At the red arrow; a nomad couple got a house, they were both happy.
After that the happines rises slowly. Every child that's born stays happy.
At the yellow arrow; I built a church. Only one of the initial adults are happy but I think all children.

If we look at the beginning, the happiness graph looks weird. What is, if they have a "memory" If they once was this miserable, they never will be happy again? I'm pretty sure that no clothes causes at least some of this total absence of happiness. I've started a new game to look more closely. But it's strange, that the "survivor" start doesn't show a beginning like that. They too have no clothes from the beginning.

Iīll put the save here on the blog, maybe someone else have some suggestions.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 18, 2018, 02:48:39 AM
I loaded your game yesterday. It is not the one with up and downs but with too low happiness for all the buildings you have. First I built a church with priest and it raised up to 90%. I don't know why not more. Turning off any other building it goes down, so everything else is working. You did not have any death and nobody has only 2 stars which is the only case we know as "memory" effect from where they don't recover. Maybe there is any other such effect as you mentioned. That people who were sad because of ragged clothes at the start cannot become fully happy anymore or something like that. I also don't have another explanation yet but we will find out. Btw, one thing I tried is to give them all different foods and I got a small effect of 2 or 3%. That might be this aspect caused by Lukes lines of "min/max food items for happiness". But it doesn't explain the limited graph.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 18, 2018, 12:52:34 PM
I don't understand this, it's the right save; Veniceville April 24. I downloaded and checked it. Now I don't have these waves, not when I load my original save either. As I said I played it about 5 times; always waves. I have no idea what could have happened. The one different thing now, that I didn't see in any of the other times I played that save, is that one farmer has the "idling decease" and walks between idling places insted of harvesting. But how could this make the change? ???

I have some more findings. I'm pretty sure, that no clothes at the beginning causes, that it's harder to get people happy later in the game. I made a lot of screenshots from a new game: Farmers, Norseman.

First picture
Start. Everyone except 1 child has no clothes.
Second picture
It didn't take long and it looked like this.
Third picture
But it will get worse, by everyone except the child with the clothes and for some reason, I don't understand one adult.
Fourth picture
But things soon improved without understandable reason, by everyone except the person who wasn't as miserable before.
Fifth picture
If they have a house or not doesn't matter, adults without coats are really miserable, children not quite so, and those with coats have recovered to 3 stars and will stay that way.
Sixth picture
With a well some of the people without coats who lived in the houses recovered stars, even without a coat.
Seventh picture
Everyone have a coat and everyone have 3 stars. You can see the over all graph.
Eighth picture
With all happiness buildings, all children and 50% of the adults (in every house 1 with 5 * and one with 3 *) are happy. Well, market, sauna, church with priest only made a few people happy. You can see the first little leap up.

I'm pretty sure, there is some kind of memory and also that no clothes at the beginning causes some of these problems. There might be more things as well. I will start another game now with shepherds. They have coats from the start and the sheep make it easier, to always have coats. We will see, if I can get everyone happy.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 18, 2018, 02:48:46 PM
well , i think all those "yellow stars" gone look very very good ! i will need to be explained (how to mod to get that result)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 18, 2018, 03:18:19 PM
Iīm pretty sure, that all stars gone isnīt modded, or at least not intentional modded. But maybe weīll find out how. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 18, 2018, 04:35:03 PM
I played my very similar game with "Shepherd" start. (Everyone have a coat from the start) It's also easy to produce enough coats all the time. And this time, I got everyone except 1 person happy. I haven't seen any reason for him to be unhappy, but I guess we must accept a few not understandable things. Maybe the number of different food, that you speak about @Tom Sawyer have an impact, maybe something else.

So, clothing from the start are important. I have seen, that many of the start options lack coats. I find, that there should be enough coats in every startcondition, except a couple of really hard one (Survivor, Gold seeker)

I think - Short term; clothing from the start and a possibility to put a priest in the small chapel, would improve the possibilities to manage Ironman. At least I would give it a try. Long term; smaller houses; nicer looking 4 person houses and maybe some small easy to build 3 person house (such a house could even make it possible to survive the start on "harsh" with "Ironman". At least i don't think, that you can do it now. If itīs then possible to survive a longer game is another question.) and some additional food processing, mainly for vegetables.

After playing that short "Ironman" game, my conclusion is, that you need to get to 5* happiness fast. Does it pay off to use 2 person (priest and innkeeper) and some from food produced/imported alcohol to increase the happiness by the people? I would say; yes it does and it does, already in a very small settlement. The innkeeper also make laborerīs work, when he's not busy brewing or producing roasted meat. So it's more or less only 1 unproductive priest to support. As I looked in that first game with the new "happiness system", it's minimum 10% loss of productivity with only 3 stars. So in "best case" 1 priest pays off, when there's 10 producing adults. Normally even earlier, because I also saw 35% production loss.

On the picture, you can see the graph. The first heap to about 80%was the brewey with alcohol, the last (everyone except one happy) the big church. By the way, the name of this settlement is random!  :D

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 19, 2018, 01:36:22 AM
Wow, your Swedes made a graph like a textbook example @Nilla. So Luke did not only include depression after loosing family members but also post traumatic stress disorder? I can't believe it.^^

Starting as farmer without clothing was not my intention. Builders seem to have the same issue caused by overloaded carts without free space for coats. That will be fixed with coats for everyone. I also put 2 coats into Anders and Ellas bag. They should become a happy couple. Thank you for making all these tests and conclusions. I will make a hotfix.

@RedKetchup. I already wrote it somewhere in my main thread and of course it's no secret. Scaling the happiness range is a simple change in Citizen.rsc:citizen and I use the following values:

float _maxHappiness = 1.25; //vanilla: 10 (now default = 60%, vanilla 95%)
int _minFoodForHappiness = 4;
int _maxFoodForHappiness = 32; //vanilla 12
float _happinessUpdateInMonths = 0.33; //vanilla 3 (now every 50 sec at speed 2)
int _workForHappiness = 10;
float _unhappyLevel = 1.0; //vanilla 0.6;
float _depressedLevel = 0.25;
int _idleRange = 25;

The rest and actual work was reworking the main mod with a couple of new buildings and a good balance of alcohol, happiness circles and so on.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 19, 2018, 03:13:00 AM
Quote
I will make a hotfix.

That would be nice. I will wait and start another "ironman" attempt.

These;  min/maxFoodForHappiness and workForHappiness do you know what they mean?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 19, 2018, 07:08:39 AM

@RedKetchup. I already wrote it somewhere in my main thread and of course it's no secret. Scaling the happiness range is a simple change in Citizen.rsc:citizen and I use the following values:

float _maxHappiness = 1.25; //vanilla: 10 (now default = 60%, vanilla 95%)
int _minFoodForHappiness = 4;
int _maxFoodForHappiness = 32; //vanilla 12
float _happinessUpdateInMonths = 0.33; //vanilla 3 (now every 50 sec at speed 2)
int _workForHappiness = 10;
float _unhappyLevel = 1.0; //vanilla 0.6;
float _depressedLevel = 0.25;
int _idleRange = 25;

The rest and actual work was reworking the main mod with a couple of new buildings and a good balance of alcohol, happiness circles and so on.

Thanks you Tom
overall i think thats a very good idea in long time because it pushes player to satisfy more consciously their citizens
i would love too to have a better health system too and make it more important.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 19, 2018, 07:46:58 AM
i agree with that. LUKE had good ideas that he didn't finish. i think there is lots he intended that he didn't give us or modders enough clues to unlock. TOM can those happiness codes be made into a mod that would affect even a vanilla game?  not a request.

when NILLA masters this and the health,we will send her to unravel markets.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 19, 2018, 08:51:26 AM
@brads3, you can use Norsemen in vanilla, it's not directly connected to the North. (at least that's how I understand it.) But of course the North buildings are adapted to this happiness system with visible radius, of a size, that make sense.

I have never really had any issues with markets, In my games they always work well enough. My guess is that your loads of mods sometimes makes them work better, sometomes not so good. And to investigate these loads of mods and how they work together, is your thing, not mine! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 19, 2018, 09:09:58 AM
thanks a lot. you forget i lost my notes?  :'(     it isn't about better really. there is subtle differences between different modders or markets.i also think there are hidden "gems" that LUKE coded.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 20, 2018, 04:32:11 AM
Yes, you can play with changed happiness in every other scenario @brads3. Just use one of the citizen mods. Would be interesting how it works in CC with luxury items and so on. I guess it can be fun to play. Only with too large detraction circles it will be hard to make people happy. Same in vanilla where 30 tiles detraction around a mine is way too much because every detraction circle removes one of the 5 happiness aspects.

How the min/max food values work, I don't know exactly @Nilla. I guess it defines a range to give them an additional bonus but it is a very small effect. I just increased the max value because I have already about 50 food items and wanted to keep Lukes idea working.

How "work for happiness" works I also don't know. The only logical case for me is that it's an amount of work cycles they have to do when idling before going back to work. It can be tested but I did not yet because I'm actually satisfied with the current 10-30% difference of productivity.

I made changes of veges and chapel and also want to add the goahti as a survival item for early game. It will be easier to get a viable start as Survivor in harsh climate, even in Ironman mode, where in current version it always ends in a "last man standing" scenario. It will somehow remove this thrill but also the frustration and that's good. I finished my old sketch and have to make textures now. Then I will upload this balancing hotfix. Here the blank model as a little heads-up. :)

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/GoahtiThumb.png) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/Goahti.png)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2018, 05:47:07 AM
That hut or tent what we call "Same kåta" looks great. I had to look up your name "goahti" and that's the name of the building in the language of the North Sami people. I would keep that name. It doesn't take much of the difficulty away from the "survivor" start. When you once know, how to make it, the biggest thrill is gone. My guess is that "Ironman" on harsh with "survivors" will have enough of this "thrill", you speak about, even if you can build these "Sami tents" as Google translate says in English.

I may have some new findings. I haven't played much this weekend. The children were here, but they are gone now, so I can continue the latest "start up game". I'm pretty used to starts now. ;) Maybe this one is even a "keeper". I was curious on this "min food for happiness" thing, so in this game I really try to give my Bannis as many different kind of foods as possible. I buy as much different kind of food I can afford, also salt and sugar and make salted meat and jam. In other games I normally salt, smoke or roast meat, here I try to make all at the same time. It doesn't always work, but often they have more than 4 different kind of food in their homes.

Look at the picture, what happened! I'm surprised! I didn't know, that you could reach 5 stars without church and without inn. OK, it's just one person and it's not all the time. But this is new; I haven't seen it before. I'm curious to see what will happen, when I build a church and an inn.

This game is "Ironman" with a "Shepherds" start. I've cut in the settings. Same mods as before.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
Just as I hoped: with inn and church they are 100% happy. :)

So I think we can say; if we want everyone (not most of them) happy after we've built all these happiness buildings, they need a coat from the start and a lot of different food.

I'm not sure, how these min/maxFoodForHappiness work; But I'm sure, that the number of different foods have an influence. (Not food categories, they have an impact on the health) Must they have at least 4 different foods to be happy? Most of the time, they had more, but there were also times, when it was less in some houses. Does this mean, that they get happier for each different food they have, until they have 24 different? Nr 25 doesn't bring any additional happiness? (Never had that many) How can this be seen? I guess not, when you have all happiness buildings; It could be that 4 different is enough for 100%. But maybe, if some building is missing or if they live in the influence of some unhappiness building, this might have a larger impact. Aftere all I had one 100% happy, even without the "important buildings". By the way; he lost 2 stars, when he moved out from home. Mammy's food is always the best! ;)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 20, 2018, 09:42:25 AM
hey i was playing and checking my tavern new recipes.. along with my malt house to see it was working as intented...
i noticed something.... is there a way @Tom Sawyer  to restrict 1y-4y children to idle and consume tons of alcohol all the time like crazy for nothing? lol
they go stand in a tile, drink 1 alcohol and then move. they move 2 tiles further or crossing and they stop drink another alcohol and then move on. move another 2 tiles, stop and drink again another one... infinitely till they decide to go in the wood..... and they can have 0y ... 1y... 3-4y ... till they go to school lol

it is not the fact alcohol numbers go down so fast as soon some are created that disturb me... thats the fact they have 0y-4y ! my roommate is drinking all the time like crazy enormously till he doesnt have a cent left all the time... some adults are doing this... but a 0y-5y old ?? even if it would be a milk bottle... any child wouldnt empty so many milk bottle in RL without exploding lol
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2018, 12:23:53 PM
I've made the same observations as you @RedKetchup, even if I can't describe it as funny as you can; Bannis children are alcoholics at the age of 5!  :( The main consumers of alcohol!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 20, 2018, 12:31:30 PM
I've made the same observations as you @RedKetchup, even if I can't describe it as funny as you can; Bannis children are alcoholics at the age of 5!  :( The main consumers of alcohol!

i ve sent an email to Luke about this like 2 hours ago. will see if i can get an anwser on this :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Gatherer on May 20, 2018, 12:46:09 PM
Perhaps it's because they don't have anything else to do. Too young for school and work and so much free time. Could be hardcoded as a higher chance for everyone to drink alcohol if available when idling and since children idle more...
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 21, 2018, 12:46:53 AM
Your last chart looks interesting with a first step already to 90%. I did not see that in tests even with a priest first and alcohol later. Maybe really due to mommy's food.^^

That little bannies go idling in taverns is not a big problem in my opinion, if it can be brewed or bought in a good amount. But I don't mind if it could be restricted to a certain age. At least there are lots of more important things I would like to have fixed by Luke and I still hope he will do something here and there for this game.

About the goahti I was also looking for a nice English term. Wiki says so from Sami language. Your Swedish kåta is a german Kate or Kote which leads to an English cottage, the frenchified form of the old "cote". In a youtube video an English speaking Sami granny calls exactly this one a "winter cottage". So I suppose it would not be wrong to name it as Sami Cottage or Sami Cote. And the bannies probably already wonder about all this boring theory since for them it's just any primitive survival hut made from some wood and stuff. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 21, 2018, 02:59:15 AM
Here's a new report from Culica; the once very happy town. So, you might understand, everyone isn't happy anymore.

First I settled one family far out in the woods, outside any happiness building. It's one hunter and one trapper. I wanted to check this "int IdleRange 25". I guess it works like this; if there's no idling spot within 25 tiles, the Banni just stop his work where he is, and doesn't go anywhere. This is the "best form" of idling. No time is spent on the road. I've seen my trapper/hunter on rare occasions in the village, but mostly they just stop for a short while, idle a bit and goes on working out in the forest, where they belong. The production is alright, but could be better. There's another problem, caused by the ability to store meat in the Hunter's Lodge. Often there's only venison in the house (and sometimes a little salmon or smoked meat that the Bannis have carried from the village far out in the woods). There is a barn directly at the house. I let the laborers pick blueberries and mushrooms in that area, so it is often full of various food. Why do they prefere the meat from the hunters place? Anyway, they often stop working to go to the herbalist. That takes time. (and maybe they also get within an idling spot on these occasions).

You might remember @Tom Sawyer I had my doubts about storing meat in the Hunter's lodge. I would say after testing; like all stores for only one food category, it bring more disadvantage than advantage. At least in this game.

I plan to solve this by placing a Wagon Vendor out in the woods. I will not always have a vendor, just from time to time to fill it. Is this an idling spot, also without vendor? It doesn't bring any happiness, but maybe they still go there to idle, so maybe what you win in less walking to the herbalist, will be lost by walking to the idling spot. We will see. I just put it there but haven't looked, yet.

That was a planned reduction of happiness, but the next blow wasn't. But it brings to me new and interesting knowledge, about the happiness system. (or maybe not knowledge, rather more questions  :-\)

I accepted a nomad couple (that's the first small drop of happiness, since they have no house yet) unfortunately they brought mumps. More or less everyone was ill and 4 people died. I didn't remember that mumps was this lethal. This caused the happiness to drop. I have a cemetery, so strange enough, it wasn't the people who lost a family member, that became unhappy, not even the children, that might be unhappy also with a graveyard in a vanilla game, when a parent dies. It was their neighbors! Now I don't know, if it was the illness or the death of a neighbor that caused this. Not everyone is unhappy. Like in many of my other games, it looks random. Except the children out in the woods, all children are still happy. In some houses both adults are happy, in others both unhappy or one happy, one unhappy. The only pattern I can see, is that those, who lost a partner are all happy (!). It looks like the effect of the cemetery overrides other factors.

What is more to say about this game? I've been very, very careful with the population growth. There's only 4 person houses. I seldom take nomads and I also plan houses for new couples carefully. My goal is to never have more than 50% children. This way, it's no problem to feed the population. I have one problem. I've played 37 years and have only seen one(!) merchant, who offers grain and vegetable seeds. It took almost 20 years until one arrived. I could buy cabbage seeds and ordered barely and rye but that merchant (or a colleague) hasn't returned. I have now built a second port and hope that finally one will arrive. I must have been extremely lucky in that other game, as the second merchant brought barely seeds, without ordering. Fruit seeds are offered often, but never vegetables and grains.

I've noticed one strange thing: single fruit trees (apples) bring 56 apples, if they are fully grown; an orchard tree only about the half (?). It's of no big importance, but in a small settlement, micromanagement of single trees do pay off. They are also faster harvested, than the same number of orchard trees. You can see my fruit experiment in the village center. Lately I have a lot of fruit, so I don't always bother to harvest the single trees. But they look nice and if there's an emergency, it's always possible to micromanage. One more question; have you increased the life of the trees @Tom Sawyer? It's been a while since I grew fruit and I can remember, that I once developed a strategy, to always have fruit from two orchards. I planted the second orchard after the first full harvest of the first and the third orchard after the first full harvest of the second. When the third orchard started to bring fruit, the trees started to die on the first. It was time to replant it. But so far no tree has died, a long time has passed and I have a lot of fruit. No complains, trees live long in real, so it's a good change (that might have been there for I long time).

First picture

Lethal Mumps!  :'(

You can see the Bannis are well fed but unfortunately not much grain. I buy everything I can get without ordering. I guess, I should have set some orders, but I always have hoped that the merchant soon will bring the ordered seeds. As I ordered the cows, the next merchant brought some!

Second picture

I've marked the changes in happiness;

Yellow; settled a couple in the woods. (You can see their woodpile and the closed Wagon Vendor in the upper right corner)
Red; nomad couple is accepted
Blue; mumps
Green; new babies born happy and stay happy

The overall picture of the settlement doesn't look as nice as a normal Nordic settlelent. It would be nice, if the new goathi is for 3 people. We can get the same result as here, with only 4 person houses, mixing homes for 3 and 5. I think it could look nice with one Sami village and one settler village in the "viking style".
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 21, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
Bannis children are alcoholics at the age of 5!

they are alcoholics at the age of 0!!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 22, 2018, 01:18:01 AM
56 from an apple tree is right and there cannot be a difference between solitary tree and orchards since its the same apple tree there. Maybe in your orchard the trees were not fully matured. Is there not such a mechanic? I don't know exactly. The life of fruit trees was indeed increased, to 20 years + tolerance.

The new kate kote goahti thingy I restrict to a couple with 1 child, poor energy efficiency and detraction for the inhabitants. So you have to build proper houses to make them happy after surviving the first time.  8)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 22, 2018, 01:47:10 AM
Banished is a cool game! :)

In this game I'm in year 52 and have 53 (!) inhabitants. I just went back to an old blog of mine; to my town Doolin. In year 30 it had a population of 4800 (!). You can really play Banished in different ways! :) http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=671.msg12177#msg12177 (if you don't believe me, by the way it didn't survive that big, but that was never the point). ;)

After these years and all these different games, I can still say; here is something I've never seen before.

First picture

I accepted a nomad couple. It wasn't the first. So far everyone had found their way into the village. Not this time. If you look at the menu; Emers is starving, stuck in the mountains on the wrong side of the river. His young wife/daughter whatever, doesn't starve. Why? She found her way into the village. ??? Have anyone seen this before? I haven't!

This picture also shows one more "secret" about the happiness. This man is starving. He has lost some stars. My guess is, that even if he now miraculously would get some food, he would stay this miserable the rest of his life. Why don't I think, that someone who has lost all stars because of starvation can recover?

Second picture

Because of this. The young Jailynn lost one star as her husband died, or was it her father? We will never know, because she's so traumatised, that she never speaks about it. In year 52 she still has only 2 stars. She married a young man from the village the first thing she did, became some children, lived a long time in a good house close to all happiness buildings, is always well fed with a lot of different foods and well clothed; her husband and children were totall happy.

I can see the same thing, by the people who lost stars, as they were ill and some neighbors died. The have never recovered any stars. My guess is, that they became unhappy as they were ill and there wasn't a doctor. I will test this theory my next decease (but of course, when you want a decease......  :-\ ) I have a hospital but no doctor yet. When one person gets sick, I will make a save and see what happens. Then go back to the save and assign a doctor and look again a bit closer and compare.

It's different with people who were never "traumatized".  I let the family who had lived out in the woods for a century (all 3 stars) change houses with a traumatized couple. It didn't take long until the whole family was totally happy in their new house in the village. (Of course nothing changed by the 3 star couple, now living out in the woods). This is also a strategy to keep most of the population happy. If someone have to live outside the happiness radius, better people who can't get happy anyway.

So, @Tom Sawyer, I don't know what kind of detraction the new building brings. If it's the "traumatizing" kind, I wouldn't use it. It would mean, that if someone once lived in a house like this, he could never be happy the rest of his life. I also find, that it ought to be possible, to use these huts permanently in a part of the village for "designing" reasons, without all too much punishment. I find bad heat economy might be enough.

To the fruit trees; an apple orchard with 20 trees brings 560 apples and a pear orchard with 20 trees 450 if it's full harvested (a single tree brings 56/45). They are all fully grown. Orchard trees give the half of a single tree. Are there some "tricks"; that you will harvest less, if you don't occupy a farmer all the time? I only use farmers to pick the fruit. But on the other hand, I never occupy a farmer all the time at a single tree either.

Third picture

An impression of the village in early spring. I've just built a big trading port and the merchants are racing, to visit us. ;)

By the way; it pays off to complain at WOB. After my last entry, the second boat brought the barley and rye seeds, I ordered 20 years ago and almost to the the same time another merchant brought bean seeds to the other dock ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 22, 2018, 02:24:15 AM
I have to look at these fruit trees. It sounds strange.

Detraction doesn't cause this trauma effect. It just removes one happiness aspect in this area. So taking your Swedes town, people living in this small peat goahti where it is tight, dark and smoky at the open fire all the time and not even healthy will stay at 80% happiness while all others reach 100% after everything is provided. If they can move in a log cabin or even in a modern red cottage with more space, proper oven and chimney, windows and such they will be fully happy. That's what I would like to simulate with it. To implement quality of life in terms of happiness as a feature of homes where we only have efficiency of size and firewood consumption yet.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 22, 2018, 07:26:17 AM
the apple trees are nice additions.i don't use them thou since they have to be micro managed. i don't see a way that this is possable but wish we had a village gardener.the gardener would harvest all the apples as well as roots,blueberries,other foods,herbs,and thatch from the town's yards.he could also cut trees that grow up  in the village. it makes sence the bannies would do this themselves.with the limitations of the game, i don't see it being possable.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 22, 2018, 07:37:01 AM
but in fact thats possable !!
it needs to be set in the starting conditions though !
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 22, 2018, 11:08:21 AM
What did you mean to include in starting conditions @RedKetchup? I did not catch it.

With orchards I made a test to check this 100 vs. 50% yield thing. There is obviously a hard coded create chance = 2 of fruit trees. Just what we know from cropfields with a yield every 4 tiles but there we have control about it and can change it. Here not. My fruit trees have create chance = 1. So in orchards every second tree is harvested and if there is only 1 tree like in the solitary tree object then it's 100%. With 2 trees, the second is ignored, a third tree is again harvested and so on. That breaks the idea of my single fruit tree which was already not consistent since it could be placed without space and no way to define this. Probably the best to take it away. Again nice idea, but not really working.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: RedKetchup on May 22, 2018, 03:55:08 PM
What did you mean to include in starting conditions @RedKetchup? I did not catch it.

sorry. i probably misunderstood of what you were talking.
i was not thinking about orchards but more wild trees that drop their own fruits.

an idea i will probably explore in my RK Ed
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 23, 2018, 03:08:30 AM
I find these single trees nice and it doesn't matter, that they bring more fruit than an orchard tree. Not even a" micromanagement expert" like me, use them more than a few years, as the settlement is small. I still have a few, have even replanted some after they died, but I haven't harvested any for centuries; too much micromanagement. It's more for decoration. So as long as Brad's gardener doesn't walk about, I would leave them. OK, they can be misused and planted next to eachother, but I don't think, that anyone really would do this. I think, that you can leave some responsibility to the user. Even someone like me, that normally play without decorations, want a pleasant looking village and Iīve never planted these trees directly next to eachother.

i was not thinking about orchards but more wild trees that drop their own fruits.

an idea i will probably explore in my RK Ed

Sounds like a good idea.

This game is nice. It's still very slow. But I don't find it in any way boring. If I want to produce as much food as I use, I can't let the number of children be more than 50% of the adult population. That's the challenge here. And to manage this, I see no other option, than vanilla stone houses. ( here in the North for 4 people). The major difference from my last attempt on ironman is, that I can expand my fields. The laborers actually work, as they are sent to clear land. In that other "Ironman" game where (almost) everyone only had 3 stars, it took "for ever". I look a lot into the houses and slowly learn to understand the "happiness system". That's nice. :)

First picture
I wanted some more business out in the woods and I think, it pays off to try to make them happy. I said before, that I first built the Wagon Vendor, not for happiness, but to increase the health and prevent the inhabitants to only eat meat from the store in the Hunter's lodge. So far, it has only been occupied about every second winter. But it works as an idling location, even if it doesn't have a vendor. The good diet with no more walk to the herbalist and the close idling spot, made the production of the trapper increase 10-15%.

After I located the second family in this area, I built a well and a sauna. This happened: 7 inhabitants, 3 with 5 stars, 4 with 3 stars. They are all members of the church but live outside the happinesscircle of church and inn.

As next I built a small chapel out in the woods. Now everyone except the two children in the big house were happy. They might be sad, because they've just lost their mother. It was the traumatized nomad girl, with only 2 stars, who was killed by a falling tree. You can see also in a vanilla game, that some children get unhappy, when a parent dies, also when there's a graveyard. I had the fear, that this would give them a trauma, not possible to heal.

But I was wrong. After some time Therford moved to a girl in the village, who has occupied a house for herself since she was 11, and was so happy about this, that he forgot his dead mother. His sister Lemmalyn is now 16 and she still lives at home. The people who was traumatized from mumps, have all died of old age, so I think, she's the only person with only 3 stars. I guess it's time for her to move out! :)

Second picture
Since you see nothing of the settlement because of all the menus, I'll show you my little forest location "pure". Now 3 families live out there. I'm not sure, that it pays off to keep them happy. The buildings without vendors aren't the problem. They are an investment for a long time and I'm sure, that they will pay off eventually, even if it was for only one  family. But at what point is it profitable to occupy a vendor? I like to think about these kind of questions. So even if I was a bit frustrated in my first games, as there was so much I didn't understand, I'm very pleased, that you had this idea, @Tom Sawyer. THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS! :)

Third picture
I realize, that I haven't showed any graphs or have talked about the gameplay. Here are some. I think most interesting is the food and occupation. Until this year, I have had too many children for quite some time. (First picture 48/29) It has just improved (61/28). I've produced a little bit less food, than I need for quite some time, but it's a safe game. I always like to hold big stores. I micromanage a little and switch occupations after the season. Here it's "spring occupation". All fields have a farmer assigned; I need a lot of farmers, to produce all this food. (Farming in the North isnīt as profitable as in vanilla, and different crops also have different yield, thanks for that!) :) 6 orchards also need a farmer in the summer. So I need to close some workplaces (they still run) and probably some production sites, like the charburner. I also use one herdsman for 2 pastures in the "farming period". I also micromanage the farming a bit, by starting the harvest manually and send some farmers, that have harvested all, to another field or orchard, that's late. It's not necessary in "good years" but doing it this way, gives me a full harvest also in "bad years". I rarely loose any crops.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 24, 2018, 01:45:43 AM
First picture
Modern times have moved into Cullica. Now we have a school.

I haven't mentioned any goals for this game. (Except trying to survive "Ironman" and understand the happiness system better). But I actually had a plan. I wanted to reach a population of 100 this way, I have played so far. That goal is reached. After that find a suitable time to build a school. As the students start to graduate, I will settle on the other side of the river with only educated people and slowly start some industry.

Second picture
A small group from the Sami people have joined the community. They all have "natural" occupations, like hunter, trapper, herbalist. No one understand why their storage and buildings, where they prepare their herbs and meat are much more modern and comfortable than the houses, where they live, with no windows and an open fireplace.  ;)

You can see, I tried a trick; not to locate the houses close to the Hunter's lodge/meat store, to avoid the same bad nourishment, as I had in the first forest settlement. I hoped, that they would get more mixed food from the close barn. It didn't really work, that barn is often more or less empty and the people have mostly meat in their houses. That's the reason, I've built the close herbalist. At least they don't have to walk all over the map for treatment.

You can see how less children compared to adults the last years, have an influence on the foodstore. We have had some "good years" with many adults. Now with all these students and no young people helping produce food, we again produce less food than wee need and the graph will turn downwards for some time. But soon some will graduate and I think, it will change again. It was a very good opportunity to build the school at this point. (Or this opportunity was actually planned, but it's nice to see that it worked out)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: galensgranny on May 24, 2018, 02:52:11 AM

Second picture
A small group from the Sami people have joined the community. They all have "natural" occupations, like hunter, trapper, herbalist. No one understand why their storage and buildings, where they prepare their herbs and meat are much more modern and comfortable than the houses, where they live, with no windows and an open fireplace.  ;)

;D Some people are indeed a mystery!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 25, 2018, 04:10:35 AM
This happiness system still puzzles me. I'm not annoyed anymore, more intrigued. There's things to investigate, all the time. This "Ironman" game is not a game, that can afford big experimenting. I have ideas, I want to test, (especially about these "uncureable traumas") but that will have to wait for another game, that's more forgiving to "bad things". But still there's many little things to notice, just by looking, as the normal life in Cullica goes on.

First picture
I had one more disease; Dysentery, not a very lethal one. Many people got sick and a few died. The effect was small, only a few people lost stars. And it looks like getting sick without a doctor and death of a neighbor, both could have a small negative influence. And I don't think it's random (or at least not totally random) who loses a star. Only people who were missing something lost a star. I have one menu open, the woman lost one star. That house is not in the influence area of the sauna. It's close, partly in the circle but the entrance is outside. There was one more example, a house outside a church. The sami people out in the woods in the house with the happiness detraction didn't get ill. They are still all happy.

I restarted the game from the point, as the disease started and assigned a doctor. There is a small difference, no loss on happiness at all. Look at the next picture. It's not easy to compare, because there's different time scales, but look at the point as the education starts to rise. No lost on happiness at all!

Second picture
I wanted to test my theory, that the door is the important part: That it has to be inside the circle, to profit from the happiness. So I built this house, close to sauna and well, but the door outside. I moved a happy family to this house and it didn't take long, until they all lost their 2 "happiness stars".

Third picture
Some students have graduated. I only have one school and the settlement isn't very small, so it takes time for many students to graduate. As I said I would, I have started a new village on the other side of the river. I'm a little "scared" of these red houses, where people can have 3 children. But as long as I have some 1 children goahti, I'm sure I can afford these few homes. I have @Discrepancyīs Townhouses loaded. It has one small house for 4 people. I might use some of those on this side of the river later. And where they fit (mainly out in the woods) the small primitive goahti.

I show the happiness of the 6 people on this side of the river. They have a well, the store (without vendor at this point) and are members of the church on the other side of the river (outside the circle). Since living in the red houses adds happiness, I expected something like this.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 26, 2018, 02:35:56 AM
Not much happens in Cullica. Business as usual. We had two epidemics. The second time it was measles, many people got ill and the doctor hadn't time to treat everyone. Some people died.  The settlement is a bit too big now, so I don't know every individual personally anymore. It's hard to find those who lost some stars. But I have tracked a few and I will keep an eye on them and see, if the loss of happiness is permanent.

A few questions/requests/suggestions for you @Tom Sawyer

First picture
I'm not so fond of these green circles for forester/herbalist/trapper...... I want a second forester but it's hard too see in summer. I would prefere something like blue.

I looked in the Wiki on your homepage. Mainly I wanted to see the difference between educated and not educated workers. I think there are some numbers by the crops, that haven't been updated. I tried to grow herbs, they give far less compared to what the Wiki says. In this game cabbage is the fastest crop, but it looks like it takes longer than beans to ripe (maybe it's because it starts to grow by a lower temperature but maybe you've made some changes here, too).

Second picture
It looks like the cows bring less milk, than they used to. I can agree, that cow pastures were a pit too powerful, but I would rather have reduced the amount of meat. Historicall cows were held mainly for milk, meat was a by product. I know, that there will be a lack of leather, if you reduced the number of slaughtered animals. In this settlement it is the way it is now. But there are different ways to solve that; Maybe a cow hide could give more leather in the tannery, maybe you could use less leather for a warm coat or maybe you could make warm coats from wool only.

With this little milk, it's not much use to run a diary, and that's a pity.

You can also see the recent small drop of happiness, due to some "measles deaths"

Third picture
The "New Village" evolves.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 27, 2018, 01:15:28 AM
I'm also not so happy anymore with this trial of different colors. Changing the circle of the hunting tool for a consistent UI, I refused to this idea. It looks way better as it is and probably I will just stay with "banished yellow" as marking color for the whole game. Only gray detraction circles really make sense.

The crop table in wiki I have fixed. It is 6 - 8 herbs from a wild spot and every 3 tiles of a crop field. I reduced this amount with a last update but as I see you are still swimming in herbs. Do you think it's too much from the forest?

With North 7 I want to rework the set of coats which also will solve this leather issue.

A dairy hut is processing the milk of about 20 cows if working full time. I don't want to make it much slower because it has a reasonable profit of cheese making. At the moment a cow produces about 3 times more milk than meat wich is not bad but it can be a bit more. And meat a bit less to keep the balance.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 27, 2018, 02:58:29 AM
Circles: It does make sense, if those buildings, that bring happiness have a different color, than an influence area. I find, that this happiness system is a bit confusing. That's the way it is. I can't see anything you can do to prevent this. But what you can do, is to make things, you can affect, as clear as possible, like these circles. You must realize @Tom Sawyer, that you're a pioneer, when it comes to using this system and I hope that other modders will follow. What prevents anyone from adding a happiness radius to a herbalist? It could even make some sense. I want to be able to fast see, if it's just a influence area or a happiness area. What's easier than different colors? But please not green or any other color, that's hard to see for an old lady with bad eyes. ;)

Herbs: I have a lot of herbs, yes but I don't grow any. It was just a test. I have one working herbalist. The output variates, last year it was 72, this year (February) 48, but I have seen higher values, like 150. My people use very little, most of the collected herbs land in the trading ports. I don't find the output too high. It's alright. In a normal case, you will get a little surplus to sell but it's not so much, that I would concider to build a herbalist on every possible spot, to pick herbs for export. In my last game, where I bought vegetables and grain and from time to time was low on some food category, I had several herbalists and not always much herbs. I can't remember that I ran totally out of them but I couldn't sell any either.

Coats: I have a wish, if you want to rework the coats; take the textiles away from the warehouse and add a special store only for textiles. On a larger settlement it's hard to get an efficient production of clothes, no matter how you make it. The Bannis simply like to carry around stuff too much. There's a little wool and a little leather in most barns.

Milk:
You are wrong, at least when it comes to my cows; they produce a lot less milk than meat. I have 3 pastures, with 20, 19, 18 cows. First picture shows the output. It's rather 3 times as much meat as milk. I don't have a herdsman working all time, but I can't imagine that this could make such a difference. From July to frost, normally in October, the herdsmen are picking apples.

Micromanagement: Herdsmen picking apples, farmers working fields and workshops, farmers working fields and carrying goods to trading ports, building stuff, chopping wood, digging clay, sand and stone.......; that's my issues at the time. I have (more or less) stopped to micromanage the farming itself (starting harvest, sending farmers to help out on other fields when their field is done). It works, if the fields and orchards aren't too big. But I simply don't have enough people to staff every profession. Many farmers need to do other things, than being simple laborers in winter. At the beginning of a game, it's alright but I'm getting more and more bored for each year, doing this. No good sign.

My only goal for the moment is to reduce the micromanagement. That's the only way for this settlement to survive. Not because people will starve, freeze to death or all die of old age. Simply because, if I'm bored, I'm going to stop playing. If it's boring, why go on with a game?

This is a healthy settlement. The stores are well filled. We produce as much as we need. We trade a little. So far, we've sold more than we've bought. We have a good stock of daler and silver. My strategy to reduce the micromanagement is to use this stock and start to buy food. I will not reduce farming but I will not expand anymore either. I have started to reduce less profitable production, mainly some production of clothes. I also buy bricks, glass, stone when I can without order. Instead increase profitable trading products. I'm not sure, exactly how to do this yet.

First picture

Production milk/meat.

Second picture

You might not believe it, but I'm actually doing some "decoration" and "landscaping". On the first picture, you can see the fences around the pastures and quarry (not to the forest, the cows and sheep fear the forest, so they stay at the meadow). And here you can see, that I've kept the birches but cut the furs in living areas. And the second doctor; in this area, of course the building is red! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Gatherer on May 27, 2018, 06:13:56 AM
You might not believe it, but I'm actually doing some "decoration" and "landscaping". On the first picture, you can see the fences around the pastures and quarry (not to the forest, the cows and sheep fear the forest, so they stay at the meadow).

See, it doesn't take much. A simple fence and the whole settlement looks nicer and more organized.


Circles: It does make sense, if those buildings, that bring happiness have a different color, than an influence area. I find, that this happiness system is a bit confusing. That's the way it is. I can't see anything you can do to prevent this. But what you can do, is to make things, you can affect, as clear as possible, like these circles. You must realize @Tom Sawyer, that you're a pioneer, when it comes to using this system and I hope that other modders will follow. What prevents anyone from adding a happiness radius to a herbalist? It could even make some sense. I want to be able to fast see, if it's just a influence area or a happiness area. What's easier than different colors? But please not green or any other color, that's hard to see for an old lady with bad eyes. ;)

There is a standalone mod from CC that I use which changes the market and all other radius circles from yellow to blue. Perhaps the same could be done for the happines influence.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 27, 2018, 08:47:33 AM
About herbs it sounds good. I will keep it so. The herbalist with happiness I tried but did not get it to work and also did not really like the people hanging around this cabin. But if its radius would work for both gathering and happiness then it would be an argument to have yellow also for gathering because a building cannot have 2 different circles.

With milk I was wrong, yes. It was a theoretical ratio of a cow over lifetime. But of course, once a pasture is filled with animals they have a very short time to give milk. I think something 1:1 would be nice keeping the total amount of food.

I think you are just done with this town. You have managed everything under hard conditions and decoration ist not what keeps you motivated to stay on a map. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 28, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
No, I'm not done with this town, yet. I have managed to reduce the micromanagement. The only seasonal change is to let some of the traders pick apples and pears. There are also some small things, that  need to be done, like if the salt is out or if I need something, I don't produce all the time. That's no problem, I always do such things but I don't need to bother about the fields anymore and the herdsmen can stay by their animals all time. It's a relief. The production is not (yet?) quite sustainable. The store of food and daler are getting slightly smaller, but I hope, that I can catch up with production of more export goods. I also hope that the higher educational rate will help me. This makes the game interesting again. :)

One reason, that I say I'm not done yet, is that I wanted to build some of the Industrial buildings from @Discrepancy. And finally I could build my first. It's the lumber mill. I have imported the ironfittings and the lime, that's needed. But I think, I will go for those, too eventually. (If this settlement can survive with this little micromanagement)

Now I'm sorry to say, that this beautiful, impressive lumber mill is a disappointment. I was hoping, that I could produce lumber for export. It would have been historically correct for a settlement like this in North Sweden, second half of the 19th century. The area along the coast prospered, mostly due to export from saw mills and a building boom in the rest of Europe. But unfortunately a worker in the mill doesn't even produce enough to support himself (not even if played without Ironman). I had an annual production of around 300. 2 logs give 5 lumber. Input: 2*12, output: 5*6, profit: 6 or 1,2 for each lumber or 380 for each worker. (If I can sell it to the higher price, in barter trade it's a waste of material). In the North a person with a balanced diet consumes food with a value of at least 350 (cheapest protein:2, vegetable:3, grain:4, fruit:5, average 3,5*100=350) also tools and clothing are more expensive than vanilla, so I estimate that we can add another 100 for fuel, clothes and tools. This is about 3 times as much as in a vanilla game.

So, @Discrepancy a building that produces goods of a value less than 450 is a loss. I would only use such a building, if I need its product and can't buy it, or if it's an early step in a chain with a very profitable end step. My thoughts are about the same about a building, that produces goods with a value less than 900. That's the point in the North were it "breaks even". One productive person have to support children, students, laborers, vendors, teachers and other unproductive; that's at least one more person. If it's a product for export, the profit also need to support trader.

Of course a well balanced export business shouldn't bring a profit, that can support 15 people, like a good vanilla woodcutter can. I find 3-6 is reasonable. (If I recalculate the production numbers to vanilla values. I don't know if it's the same but 2 logs gives 5 lumber worth 4 makes an annual profit of 960, if the production is 300; that support about 6 vanilla Bannis)

Now this impressive sawmill produces firewood. It looks like the same value as this small chopper. There are two in the neighborhood, one produced a little bit more, one a bit less. I would raise the price of lumber to 8 and increase the production at least 50%, maybe even 100%. I know, that you can put up to 5 workers in the mill and that you may fear, that it will be overpowered as firewoodproducer this way. But I don't think, that this will be a big problem. If you run it with many workers, there will be logistic problems, that's sure. How do you get enough logs to the site? Also to distribute or consume the large amount of produced firewood had to be considered. New and interesting challenges. (I guess, in order to have an efficient lumber export business, a specialized store for only logs, would be needed, but in this case, the mill also need to support one (or several) vendors). In any case, I don't see, that it can be a profitable "firewood for export business", even with a 100% higher production, but it would make sense, that a worker in the large mill, can produce more firewood, than a person with an ax and a chopping block.

First picture
The mill is beautiful but I guess I should have built it a bit apart from the "Nordic Houses". It looks a bit odd together, and the vanilla trading port behind it even more odd. It is very pleasant to see a building breaking the "90 degree angle rule". It really look like they've looked for the best location on the river, to get as high velocity on the wheel as possible. I like such things. :)

Second picture
I haven't made a report of what happened to the people, who became unhappy as the measles epidemic struck Cullica. I kept an eye on 5 person. 2 of them regained their stars fast, for 1 it took a while, but she also recovered. 2 of them never recovered. Now they are both farmers. Guess on which fields!

I think, that each person has a "happiness account", where "good things", like living inside yellow circles, good food, and probably other things we haven't understood add value and "bad things like living inside black circles, death of family members, illness, lack of food, clothes and other yet(?) unknown things reduce value. If it once drops below a certain "depression" value, it can't be improved, no matter what. If it's above this value it can improve and if it passes a certain "happiness" value there will be 5 stars again. I first thought, there were some random things in this, but I don't really think so anymore. I rather think, that more things may have an influence, than we thought from the start and that these things are "kept in the memory" .

You can see the graphs of food and daler. I have some time to improve things before it becomes critical, so I hope it will work out. I have a plan B. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: kid1293 on May 28, 2018, 03:38:49 AM
In Citizen.rsc there is a value:
   float _depressedLevel = 0.25;

My guess is, if they reach that value they don't recover. Any experience from this?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 28, 2018, 03:53:16 AM
That's a good question @kid1293. I kept 0.25 because it means 1 star but I don't know exactly how this value is used by the game. I think it can be worth to test it with depressedLevel = 0 and -1. Maybe we can remove this memory effect at all, the depression where people cannot recover from. Would make sense. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 28, 2018, 04:09:03 AM
I'm not sure about only 1 star and not recover. These people who haven't recovered in this game have 3 stars, also those who had 2 stars never recovered. Or at least; I couldn't do anything to make them happy. But of course trying other values for this depression level would be interesting, also to find a way to increase happiness by everyone. I am sure there are more to discover in this happiness system. Only this game isn't very forgiving, so I will not deliberately make anyone unhappy here.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on May 28, 2018, 05:26:06 AM
NILLA,can i suggest that you do a small write up about how the new happiness works.adding it  to the download page might be helpful for other players. i am curious to see how much more the happiness can be tweaked or ideas TOM or other modders come up with.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 28, 2018, 08:49:02 AM
NILLA,can i suggest that you do a small write up about how the new happiness works.adding it  to the download page might be helpful for other players. i am curious to see how much more the happiness can be tweaked or ideas TOM or other modders come up with.

I've thought about something like that too, but there are still things I don't understand and things I want to check out. I'm still guessing in some parts. That's the reason, I don't want to write more, than my thoughts here in this blog, yet.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 29, 2018, 02:52:56 AM
I was right, when I said, that I'm still guessing, when it comes to happiness.

I was a bit puzzled, because all fields were worked in a similar way. It looked like the old unhappy lady has died of old age, but Lamberly, who's been unhappy since he was a child, was suddenly happy again. They had measles in year 83 or 84, in year 100 he was still unhappy, but in year 102 he was happy. Not an incurable depression! :) I have no idea, what could have caused this, and why it took so long. There's nothing new in that area, where he lives. So, as I said, there are things we don't yet understand. And maybe something random in it, after all. (easy to say when you don't understand) ;)

This game lives. At the moment I think, I've found a sustainable balance with an acceptable amount of micromanagement. It's hard to get enough miner but the resource merchants arrive often and I have bought iron ore and a little iron bloom (always without ordering). The earlier steps in the tool production chain are less profitable but if the merchants aren't helpful, some "fruit farmers" could work the mines in winter, instead of carrying goods to the ports. The number of children and students are on an acceptable level. When the population now grows, I can even increase the farming, if I want to. I could go on the way I planned but all these questions about the happiness system are "itching".

Another "itching" thing are DS Industrial buildings. I have managed to build some more. They all look so nice. I would very much like to build a larger production area with them. The problem in this game is, that most of them aren't profitable enough to run long term. None of those I've built are as unprofitable as the Lumbermill, but this is an Ironman game and I need to hold the productivity of each worker higher, than is possible in most of these buildings. One thing @Discrepancy: This is not a complain (the Lumbermill was ;) ) I'm not saying, that the productivity/profit is generally too low. Maybe it's even a good sign, that it's not high enough to manage an "Ironman" game. I like more than ever, to try this out.

So I guess, this is the last report from Cullica. It's "pollen times" so I have enough itching in my eyes and nose. Don't need it from my games as well. So, tonight, there will be a new game.

Summary new Ironman with active happiness system
-It is possible to build a prosperous settlement in a mild climate. (I have my doubts, that it can work on "harsh" but will give it a try some time in the future)
-You need to grow slow
-You need a lot of micromanagement
-You need to get (more or less) everyone happy as fast as possible
-You need to focus on high productivity/profit for everyone

First picture
When you see this picture, you might understand why I want to build more of those DS industrial buildings. One small thing @Discrepancy, maybe you already know; look at the menu of the Blacksmith at the bottom of the picture. The number for how much iron is stored is missing (it's always the product on that line).

Perhaps you can see, that I like birches. I have a lot of them here were I live and I avoid to cut any in Banished. :)

Second picture
Different part of the village have different character; here right and left side of the river. I sell a lot of things, the port menu shows the content of the large ports (there are less in the small ports). I don't sell much of the food (sometimes a little smoked meat) but I "barter for diversity". If the merchant pay a high price, I switch apples for figs, barely for corn, smoked meat for smoked fish....... It looks like the Bannis get happy, if they can have a lot of different food. The many different goods also makes it possible to sell something to the high price to most merchants (except this stingy Hanseatic merchant and a few of those others, arriving to the big ports, who only want coins or pay a ridiculously low price for my high quality goods. But on the other hand they bring things I need and the settlement is now rich enough to pay with daler)

Third picture
Here's another character to the settlement; the forest people in their goahtis.

I've cut in some menus and graphs. You can understand the struggle, if you look at the production. 153 adults for a settlement needing 72k food. I process as much food as possible, so much is counted twice, but still a lot! Also what goes into the port is counted as consumption but as I said; I don't really sell much food.

Bad things can happen, when you're trying to hold the production high for every worker. You can see the small drop on health now at the end. I couldn't really understand it, because I have a lot of food from each category, the place is covered with small markets and wagon vendors. But as I looked into the "Lanthandel" in my "Red House area" it didn't contain much food at all. Simply too many houses for the single vendor. Not good for the production, when the workers need to run to the herbalist far away. :-\ :-[
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 29, 2018, 09:38:07 AM
Oh, so you have also trouble with allergy. Maybe better to cut some of your beloved birches around the house.^^ Here the birch bloom is over but grass is already smirking at me everywhere. I should really move to Iceland.

With your summary I'm happy. That's how I want the Ironman mode. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 29, 2018, 11:40:47 AM
Luckily the birches doesn't make me any trouble, but the grass makes what it can to hold me in the house. But as warm as it is here, I guess the farmer will soon come and cut it the first time, after that it will be much better. And I can always go down to the lake, there it's also better. I just come from a small evening swim in a lake with a surface like a mirror; about 22 C in water and air at 20:30. It's not supposed to be like this in May. Don't know, if I should be happy or scared.  :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on May 30, 2018, 03:21:52 AM
I started a few games yesterday, changed different things and looked around a lot. No new findings. It only confirmed, what I thought I knew already. Even if I don't fully understand, how the happiness work in detail, I know how I make most of the Bannis happy. So I will start a new thread about the happiness system with some basic facts and tips.

Yesterday I was nice to my Bannis, tried to make everyone as happy as possible. Tonight I will be mean and see how miserable they can get even when they have a graveyard.  :-[ ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Gatherer on May 30, 2018, 02:58:28 PM
The good cop, bad cop routine.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on June 03, 2018, 11:35:45 AM
Sorry. I didnīt write anything the last days. Thereīs not much to tell and show. Iīm going away the next week, so I didnīt want to start a new big game, but I played a few small ones.

I actually was mean to my Bannis; let them go without clothes and also took the food away. If you don't count those who starved to death  :'( :-[ , the rest stayed happy. If the start conditions are good, it seems like they can endure a lot of bad things, but if they had some bad things at the beginning, they'll never be happy again.

Not easy to understand.

I also started a vanilla game with "Norseman". It's difficult because I don't know how big the influence area of the happiness/unhappiness buildings are.

I also made an attempt on @Tom Sawyerīs Anders and Ella scenario (I great idea, thanks Tom). I played it until there were 50 inhabitants on that island, most of them happy and healthy.

First picture
Nilla-mean! It looks like my Bannis don't like being out of clothes and food but in fact, it only looks that way. They are "pissed", that the ale is out! As I made a second attempt; no coats, no food, some starved to death but enough ale. They all stayed happy !  :P

Second picture
Vanilla. You can see; you don't need the North to play with the modded happiness system. It's harder but only because you can't see the influence area of the buildings.

Third picture
Lillholmen: Until I had to locate people far away from the village center, everyone except Anders and Ella were happy.

Fourth picture
Lillholmen; all of it. 50 inhabitants.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on June 03, 2018, 02:21:16 PM
enjoy your vacation.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on June 04, 2018, 01:53:39 AM
Thanks, but not really vacation; just a visit to friends and family in South Sweden and North Germany.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 04, 2018, 02:55:21 AM
These are the vanilla circles @Nilla. To make them visible I would use the happiness radius mods from Black Liquid website.

Well: 20 tiles (Safety)
Hospital: 30 tiles (Health, required worker)
Market: 45 tiles (Goods, required worker)
Trading Post: 20 tiles (Goods, required worker)
Chapel: 35 tiles (Spirit)
Tavern: 30 tiles (Entertainment, required worker + stored alcohol)
Iron Mine: 30 tiles (Detraction)
Quarry: 30 tiles (Detraction)

The problem in vanilla is the huge detraction radius. If you want happy people you cannot build a mine or quarry. Or they have to be so far away that they are even more inefficient as it already is in vanilla. A balancing patch would help but not sure if someone would use this. I know that many people still play vanilla Banished but because it's vanilla and not modded.. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: galensgranny on June 04, 2018, 09:01:34 AM
Thanks for posting that information, @Tom Sawyer ,  :)   I realize now that I was not having my happiness buildings close enough to all the houses.  I am downloading that happiness radius mod from Black Liquid now so I can see the borders of the happiness effect.

Quote
The problem in vanilla is the huge detraction radius. If you want happy people you cannot build a mine or quarry. Or they have to be so far away that they are even more inefficient as it already is in vanilla. A balancing patch would help but not sure if someone would use this.
I would.
@Nilla , so the Bannies care more for ale or some other alcoholic beverage than most things!  :o   I have been stingy with taverns.  I guess I must build more.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: rkelly17 on June 04, 2018, 02:16:50 PM
@Nilla , so the Bannies care more for ale or some other alcoholic beverage than most things!  :o   I have been stingy with taverns.  I guess I must build more.

Be careful. When they all get drunk on ale, all they do is run around the map and accomplish nothing. Oh, wait. That's what they do anyway!  :D

My approach is minimal taverns and trade all the ale away. I've never had much issue with happiness. Just enough booze, religion and cemeteries seems to keep then happy. Keep the mining on the fringes. I also use one of @RedKetchup's early mods called Bobbi Special Doctorhouse that eliminates happiness from the hospital. Got really, really tired of Bannies idling at the hospital and spreading disease though the whole settlement.  >:(  Doesn't seem to impact overall happiness.

I did once build a few houses too far away from any school and found one 22 year old still in school, still living at home and very, very unhappy.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: galensgranny on June 04, 2018, 02:39:11 PM
Quote
I did once build a few houses too far away from any school and found one 22 year old still in school, still living at home and very, very unhappy.
That is funny!  Though, not for that 22 year old Bannie.
Thanks for the tip about Red's Bobbi Special Doctorhouse.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: Nilla on June 11, 2018, 11:55:41 AM
@rkelly17; you describes the "normal" way to deal with the happiness in Banished. The whole discussion in this thread is only relevant, if you play with one of the mods "Norseman" or Ironman" where @Tom Sawyer has "tweaked" the happiness system and made it more important. I have described it a bit shorter and more concentrated in a special thread. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2445.0 Even if it's not easy to fully understand how the happiness works, it adds value to this game.

Yes @galensgranny, if you want them all to be happy; they need alcohol. But they also need the other "good things". A few are happy with the "basics" some need alcohol, other need a priest and the rest of the people need all of it. Not always easy to understand.  :P

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the spring version of the North6 together with DS jetties
Post by: brads3 on June 11, 2018, 12:10:10 PM
@rkelly17; you describes the "normal" way to deal with the happiness in Banished. The whole discussion in this thread is only relevant, if you play with one of the mods "Norseman" or Ironman" where @Tom Sawyer has "tweaked" the happiness system and made it more important. I have described it a bit shorter and more concentrated in a special thread. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2445.0 Even if it's not easy to fully understand how the happiness works, it adds value to this game.

........ other need a priest and the rest of the people need all of it. Not always easy to understand.  :P



the indians and mountain men will protest now and never be happy..........i aready hear cannons and see warpaint.