News:

Welcome to World of Banished!

Main Menu

Arbors and water lilies

Started by tanypredator, January 31, 2017, 10:06:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RedKetchup

what you mean by diagonal lines ?? are you talking about the "moiré" the shadows does ??
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Donations by Paypal  < < <
Click here to Donate by PayPal .

elemental


RedKetchup

Quote from: elemental on February 01, 2017, 11:09:38 PM
Yes, the moire.

yeah the stupid moiré..... i dont have real explanation/fix yet  to this real problem  :'(
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Donations by Paypal  < < <
Click here to Donate by PayPal .

RedKetchup

#18
Quote from: RedKetchup on February 01, 2017, 11:48:08 PM
Quote from: elemental on February 01, 2017, 11:09:38 PM
Yes, the moire.

yeah the stupid moiré..... i dont have real explanation/fix yet  to this real problem  :'(

but there is maybe something i noticed though... since i am trying to read and find a way....

is : the moiré tend more often to appear if the 3d object is thin or thinner in the z (up-down) axis than if it would be more thicker like if the texture below(or bottom) is fighting against the top texture (and our video cards dont know anymore which pixel he should show to the screen) so increasing the thickness of the top forms help to reduce.

in the screenshot below show what i try to say .... in 1st screenshot the awning is very very thin, and you see moiré.
in the 2nd screenshot , i made the awning very very thick and you see no more moiré
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Donations by Paypal  < < <
Click here to Donate by PayPal .

Discrepancy

Quote from: RedKetchup on February 02, 2017, 01:19:10 AM
but there is maybe something i noticed though... since i am trying to read and find a way....

is : the moiré tend more often to appear if the 3d object is thin or thinner in the z (up-down) axis than if it would be more thicker like if the texture below is fighting against the top texture (and our video cards dont know anymore which pixel he should show to the screen) so increasing the thickness of the top forms help to reduce.

in the screenshot below show what i try to say .... in 1st screenshot the awning is very very thin, and you see moiré.
in the 2nd screenshot , i made the awning very very thick and you see no more moiré

excellent find   :)

that is good to know going forward.

RedKetchup

Quote from: Discrepancy on February 02, 2017, 01:23:11 AM
excellent find   :)

that is good to know going forward.

maybe sometime it can help... and probably it may not fix everything ... but this is at least a little something to keep in mind :)
> > > Support Mods Creation developments with Donations by Paypal  < < <
Click here to Donate by PayPal .

tanypredator

RedKetchup, thank you for this information! So I should check my lily leaves' bottom plane normals and thickness of a leaf.

Tom Sawyer

@elemental I agree. It should be available as decorative item in any case to create nice sceneries. The game could never do it with its limited mechanics. To give it a try as natural resource would be in addition and I would like to have it in general. Decorative plants feel to me like plastic in game and I don't really like to play with it. The water lily seems to be an exception. ;D

To find a solution for this moire problem would be great. I tried a lot too and could solve it here and there by changing shapes (yes, making it thicker) or by smoothing faces in case of the bog iron models. With the water lily I don't have a good idea how to solve it and keep their perfect looking leaves. Maybe by creating a kind of cone on the reversed side.

elemental

#23
I did some experiments.

Pic 1 shows the moire on the lilies. Also shows those decorative road tiles from CC that I mentioned earlier. No moire on those tiles.

Pic 2 shows the lilies from the other direction. No moire.

Pic 3 shows lilies on a spot where I lowered the land with terraform mod. No water underneath them, but they still have moire. So moire probably isn't caused by a texture underneath the lilies.

Pic 4 I zoomed in with zoomhack. The lily pads aren't totally flat, it looks like they have a very thin edge around them. Maybe this is causing a shadow on the flat lily pad surface? I'm just guessing. I don't know if this is the reason for the moire.

But if they were flat, would they still have moire? Those CC road tiles are flat they have no thickness - just a flat plane. They don't have any texture on their underside, either. I looked with zoomhack and from underneath they are invisible. Those decorative CC road tiles also don't cast any shadows at all, so maybe that is why they don't have moire.

I hope this is helpful in some way for tany and anyone else who is trying to figure out the moire problem.  :)

tanypredator

Quote from: elemental on February 02, 2017, 03:17:55 AM
I did some experiments.

Thank you very much for this testing, elemental! I'll try to solve this problem, just I cannot promise, that I'll do it today, more likely tomorrow evening or on weekend.

tanypredator

#25
So, I updated the mod with corrected normals for roofs and tables, but couldn't solve the lines-problem. I studied my leaves model and found out that there are some strange doubles and incorrect normals. But neither correcting that, nor increasing the thickness hadn't eliminated lines. You can see the 1-tile simple leaves in a new download, with which I experimented - it still has lines.

PS. I hadn't tested making them a simple plane, but I'm afraid that this will remove shadow from beneath and maybe also bring some problems with snow.

kid1293

The only thing I can think is going on is the water.

I you look at the edge of a bridge there are some strange things from the water.

If you place an alpha channeled texture over water maybe thats the problem.

Make an easy test. Remove Foliage material and test with OpaqueSnow.
That way you will know if it is the alpha texture and water.
You maybe have to make a quick leaf model to test with, without alpha, but
it could be worth it in the long run.

elemental

You can certainly try what Kid suggested but as I show in pic 3, there are still lines even if you place the lilies on a square with no water. I  flattened some land tiles with terraform mod in pic 3. You can see where the water tiles end in that screenshot.

A version with just a flat plane for lily pads would be an interesting test. Maybe no shadow is better than lines? From above the water looks fairly murky (except in very shallow streams where it looks very clear) so how much shadow and detail would you expect to see on the bottom of the lake? We really shouldn't be able to see much at all underneath the water, and yet we can see the bases of buildings and everything else, as if the water is perfectly clear.

If you can fix the problem then that would be great but even if you can't I would still use these lilies. They are too nice to leave out.  :)

But finding out what is causing it would be useful for other mods too. CC guys might know. Perhaps ask them?

kid1293

#28
Yes, I think you are right @elemental I didn't see that.
No use to test then.

edit - I made a quick test with shadows resolution / quality
With high resolution and low quality my lines disappeared.

Tom Sawyer

I think we already found the cause. Like elemental said, it's a shadow effect by edges of thin models. It can be solved by removing edges including shadows or by increasing the distance to the face where the strange shadow appears (making it thicker). The shadows of the plant look very nice on the ground and create a natural effect. I would not remove them to fix the moire. I would try to make it thicker and hide it under the leaves by leading it to the centre. If this not works I can live with it. The model is great anyway.

I can give it a try in blender if you like and don't have enough time @tanypredator.