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Difficulty Setting

Started by Demonocracy, May 25, 2014, 03:08:34 AM

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@mariesalias: I also went through a phase of building tiny settlements in the forest.  I stopped after I realized that either I ended up with some of my farmers living in the forest, or some of my foresters living in the farmland, depending on the number of houses and the sizes of the families.  Logs were somewhat optional, and food was not, so everyone lives outside the managed forest now.

Demonocracy

@mariesalias

I also do not like to build housing in my forester circles for the exact same reason.  I prefer to keep housing within the confines of the markets because I think it makes the market go further that way.  That means I'll often set sort of a makeshift perimeter of schools, churches, woodcutters, tailors, blacksmiths and the like just outside that ring while the housing is just inside of it.  If the remote areas are starting to be too remote, then I begin to plan for expansion which, for me, starts first with a market because all other things are built around it.

It has worked so far for me.

By the way, the Hard mode game I started is now sitting pretty nicely.  I've expanded into a second market area in year 52.  All supplies are well-maintained, all livestock types, some choice seeds and functioning farms, 4.5 health, 4.5 happiness, and a booming population at 70/12/27.  I'm currently working on ramping up food production as I see the high birth rate may create a hazardous condition if I'm not careful.

So... the first Hard mode game is looking great so far.  : )

Kaldir

Quote from: canis39 on May 25, 2014, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: Kaldir on May 25, 2014, 02:20:58 PM
This is an interesting read. When I started on Banished I played on easy a couple of times and failed them all. Then I read a lot of forum posts, and always played on hard afterwards. It's working out okay for me, without any deaths from starvation or freezing. My food reserves are sometimes dangerously low though.

I usually have a gatherer, hunter, barn, and 4 houses (all close together in the middle of that forest circle) up before winter year 1, closely followed by a woodcutter on the edge of the forest circle and a school.

Kaldir, if you're playing with a mild climate, there is really no need to build 4 houses before the first winter.  I usually only build 2 houses and while it does mean fewer babies being born, it helps because it cuts down on the "food hoarding" that happens every time a new house is completed.


I know there is no need to, but I don't like all the homeless icons walking around and feel bad about people sleeping on the dirt roads in winter. Also, I like to get many births quickly to expand the population sooner rather than later. Game mechanics might suggest suspending the houses, but it just feels better this way for me. 

rkelly17

As @Kaldir says, this is an interesting read and proves that there really is no one way to get a settlement going. I'm a maximalist when it comes to houses in the first year. I build everything else first to get food, firewood and tree planting going, then 6 houses if two people have aged up and 5 if only one has aged up. Usually these are one-person for a season or two until a couple more people age up. Given that there are "4 families" one would expect 4 would house everybody, but I have seen a single 11 year-old take the first house. Not very respectful of one's elders! I have no problem with houses in the forest village. They may impact production, but not enough that it damages long-term viability. Depending on starting tree density, I can sometimes get away with just one gatherer and one hunter for a couple of years. That's optimum; usually it takes 2 each and if tree density is really low I need all three hunters. Eventually the planting forester takes care of that.

One place where I have come to disagree with pinstar. He builds the tailor before the school. I've found that the citizens go warm up more often, but they can live with ragged coats. Education is such a bonus that I build the school as soon as the blacksmith is finished and then the tailor. There is one issue with this: It takes longer to get your next worker. That slows down building the market and trading post, but in the long haul the higher proportion of educated workforce makes up for it. It can take those early uneducated workers a long time to die off.

The last couple of days for the fun of it I've played a couple of maps on Easy. It is nice to have some crops and livestock right off, but since you have more population you need them sooner, too. You still have to get the hunter/gatherers out there and you still need logs and firewood, so I ended up building a forest village very soon anyway. Plus you have to build a quick pasture for your livestock. And on one my crops were peppers, walnuts, chestnuts and chickens. Not exactly an all-star line up. I think the citizens were eating a lot of pepper and onion omelets.

Kaldir

Quote from: rkelly17 on May 26, 2014, 07:27:38 AM
Depending on starting tree density, I can sometimes get away with just one gatherer and one hunter for a couple of years. That's optimum; usually it takes 2 each and if tree density is really low I need all three hunters.
I read a few times that hunters don't need a forest as much as gatherers do, and that they can hunt on plains as well as long as there is no human activity. Never tried it outside a forest though.

rkelly17

@Kaldir, what I have read elsewhere and what I experience is that hunters are less dependent on trees. They demand open space, but not necessarily trees. Thus if the tree density is low they produce more than gatherers per worker. Once tree density is up the gatherers produce more.

Kaldir

Quote from: rkelly17 on May 26, 2014, 07:48:49 AM
@Kaldir, what I have read elsewhere and what I experience is that hunters are less dependent on trees. They demand open space, but not necessarily trees. Thus if the tree density is low they produce more than gatherers per worker. Once tree density is up the gatherers produce more.
Aw, thanks for the info.

Greydragon

Quote from: Kaldir on May 26, 2014, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: rkelly17 on May 26, 2014, 07:27:38 AM
Depending on starting tree density, I can sometimes get away with just one gatherer and one hunter for a couple of years. That's optimum; usually it takes 2 each and if tree density is really low I need all three hunters.
I read a few times that hunters don't need a forest as much as gatherers do, and that they can hunt on plains as well as long as there is no human activity. Never tried it outside a forest though.

its been my experiance that it doesnt really matter where you put your hunters, i had one in the middle of town and they got just as much as the one in the forest and the one on the plains

Kaldir

Quote from: Greydragon on May 26, 2014, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: Kaldir on May 26, 2014, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: rkelly17 on May 26, 2014, 07:27:38 AM
Depending on starting tree density, I can sometimes get away with just one gatherer and one hunter for a couple of years. That's optimum; usually it takes 2 each and if tree density is really low I need all three hunters.
I read a few times that hunters don't need a forest as much as gatherers do, and that they can hunt on plains as well as long as there is no human activity. Never tried it outside a forest though.

its been my experiance that it doesnt really matter where you put your hunters, i had one in the middle of town and they got just as much as the one in the forest and the one on the plains
Ow! I'm going to try that in my current town, which is lacking leather somewhat. Would be interesting to see the output of both.

mariesalias

I have had towns where I placed Hunter's Cabins outside of forest circles and they did fine. Though as the area around them gets filled up, they produce less.

The problem with hunters early on is that they are not always dependable on when they will produce their meat. I used to build a Hunter's Cabin before a Fishing Dock but had a couple times where some of my population starved because the venison did not come in quickly enough. This was when I used to build all the houses my people needed right away though (instead of staggering them like I do now) so maybe that impacted it.

From watching Let's Plays before the game released, I came into Banished with some preconceived notions. Some of the food  ones were how powerful Gatherer Huts are in the early game, that fishing gave poor yields early on, Hunter's Cabin's were strong early on, and that Fields were better a little later rather then early on.
After playing, I feel Gatherers are the strongest starting food producers, both because of steady supply and variety. Thanks to you guys, I realized that fishing can be valuable early on, too! It is now my preferred second food production building. I have found Hunting Cabins less useful early on as they do not seem as dependable food source compared to gathering and fishing. They are hugely valuable once you start thinking about building a trading port, though! And I still do not prefer farming early-on. Unless I am fortunate enough to get Beans from the start, I find my gatherer's/fishermen more dependable for food amounts. Once you reach a certain point though, you need farms to properly expand and they become perhaps the most important food source.

Of course, I am sure this is all just dependent on my play style. And while I may have changed my mind about some of my preconceived notions, I have probably replaced them with new ones based on my play that may or may not be entirely accurate. :D 

I somewhat recently decided to go for the OWN and Isolationist achievements on a Mountain Man map. To my surprise I had to restart a few times! I have never had so may problems on a starting map! I did not get the first house completed before an early cold snap and everyone froze to death. I tried to build a gatherer's hut first but it was too far away from the storage hut and production suffered enough that people starved. A fishing hut worked much better on that map, but then there was no early cold snap and the people ran out of tools early. I had to keep changing the priority of buildings slightly until I got a start where the weather cooperated with me and everything came together just right.

What this experience really drove home to me was that there is no one right answer for every map and every starting difficulty. And what a valuable resource the Banished community is! I find myself often problem-solving in my towns or just adjusting my planning, and trying out new strategies based on suggestions and conversations from this community.

rkelly17

Awhile back there was a thread on the Shining Rock forum which looked at fishing production. It boils down to one basic point: More water in the circle = more fish. That being said, having two houses and a barn as close to the dock as possible increases fish production since the fishers spend more time fishing and less time commuting or storing the catch. If fishing docks have low production in the early game it is probably because the fishers live far away and/or the nearest storage (barn or wagon) is far away. Hunters and gatherers would suffer from the same problem.

The other day I followed some hunting lodges very closely. Under ideal conditions a hunting lodge records a kill (200 venison + 6 leather) every other season. The problem is the "under ideal conditions" part. As with all Banished citizens hunters do other things than hunt. In a one-hunter lodge it may be 4 or 5 seasons between kills. Even a 3-hunter lodge can go 3 or 4 seasons between kills.

Demonocracy

Fishing might be one of the most profitable food resources for its consistency and little space requirement.  Gatherers are great too, but the large land it takes up seems to offset the value a little bit--at least I think so.

Then again... I feel I have all the space in the world when I first start a fresh game, so I end up building mostly Gatherers and sprawl out over the land because I can.  As the land is taken up as the town grows, it gets a little more about space management too.

mariesalias

@rkelly17  Yes, it was that thread that caused me re-evaluate my ideas of fishing production. I believe you are right, often the best food source early on depends on the location of the storage cart/barn. That makes sense about the hunters. I think I remember reading something about this on the SRS forum too. I no longer build hunter's cabins depending on their food source, but consider the venison as a supplemental/extra one. Usually, I don't seriously start building hunter's cabins (anymore) until I am thinking of building a trade port (for venison to trade for food) or tailor's shop (for hide coats).


@Demonocracy  It is true, fishing does have a relatively small footprint. But depending on the river and lakes on a map, the waterfront property can be a premium spot. I have no issues removing a fishing dock in favor of a trade port if I need to. :D I still do all my trading by hand though, so I never seem to build more then half-a-dozen trade ports. No doubt I'll have to re-evaluate things as I start focusing on larger population maps.

I also like to spread out my forestry hubs, I end up planning my town's development on them. Even in big cities, you can usually find some green spaces. :D