World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM

Title: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM
I have decided to leave the North for a brief visit by the latest development from all our @RedKetchup.

I only started the game yesterday and didn't get very far. It's a little bit like the first steps in a game you play the first time, or rather a game you have played an earlier version from before. New surprises all the time! I like that!

I have followed the development thread, so it wasn't a surprise, that the vanilla buildings all look different from the vanilla buildings, if you understand what I mean. ;) But it was a small surprise, that it wasn't as easy as usual to build them all. Don't get me wrong. This was a very pleasant surprise. (Those of you who hasn't tried this mod yet yourself and want to discover these surprises for yourself, don't read the next section!)

I had one 7 year old. In such a case, I build a school as one of the very first buildings. To build a school you need iron, that's not different from vanilla, but there's no iron to be found, only iron ore. So first you need a blacksmith, then the school. Similar the tailor; you need lumber to build it: first a lumber mill, then a tailor. I start this game "hard", and want some seeds and animals fast. So soon I will need to build a tradingport. I have seen, that besides lumber iron and stone two more material are needed; I'm not sure yet what. Glass is one of them, the other copper or maybe brick. No worries, I'll find out and produce it. That will be fun!

I have two small requests @RedKetchup:

How long do the different tools last. I think I've seen it somewhere in the 50 sites long development thread, but it's not easy to find, when you need it. It would be nice, if it stood on the download page, together with the heat economy of the houses.

The menu of the forester only have three lines, but there are a lot of more materials to get in the wood. That would be nice to see, in a similar large menu like gatherer and hunter.

First picture

The first buildings. I've cut in the starting conditions. I only use RKEC. Maybe I will add some more mods later.

Second picture

A various of food in the woods! The "dangerous wild boars" look funny, not like they could kill anyone. The animation isn't perfect but they are cute. Sorry, not to be seen on this picture except after the "care" of a hunter.  :-\

Third picture

First basic buildings done. I'm looking forward on collecting material for the trading port.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 05, 2018, 06:09:03 PM
yes i can do both requests @Nilla  :)

i can add the 8 items long window to the forester. and i can expand my wiki with tools info :)

it reminds me also to lower the extra animal spawns and also lower just a bit the original deer one because it getting crazy to see all that food with just 1 hunter. there is also the fact that hunters get more kills per month that the vanilla hunter (month per kill 1 instead of 2 months)
it reminds me also to revert back the change made to the vanilla blueberry which are too high.

i will follow this thread closely :)
and THANKS you doing it :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 05, 2018, 06:30:09 PM
you can see the tools info in here : http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2253.msg45502#msg45502 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2253.msg45502#msg45502)

about the forester window : change has been made for the next Beta build which will be available next weekend :)
about the spawning numbers of animals : they have been reduced by another 50%
about blueberries : i kept the numbers i've setup for the orchard blueberries, and i lowered the chance to spawn in wilderness of 50%. Gatherers, with all the new food they can get, were doing crazy with those blueberries high numbers.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 05, 2018, 08:04:49 PM
this will be interesting for sure.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 06, 2018, 05:39:18 AM
I hope you will stay that happy about this blog @RedKetchup. You know me quite a long time and you also know, that I don't only say nice things, even if it looks like it was so yesterday.   ??? I will tell you things I don't like, too. Starting today.  :-\  But take it for what it is; one person's opinion. I know very well, that I sometimes don't like things others love and that I like things others dislike. I don't expect, that things are changed the way, I would like them to be.

Thanks for the numbers from the tools. They look logical.

Yes definitely, there's too much blueberries. About the meat, I'm not that sure. It seems to have been reduced, after the first few years, as there was too much. It almost seems, like there was a lot of animals in the circle at the biginning, but they've been hunted too strong, so now the hunter doesn't find that much anymore. I'm not sure about this, I haven't looked particularly into it. Last year (year 11) they got 720 meat, 4 fur and 18 leather. I will keep an eye on this and make notes of the annual production.

I found out about the necessary building materials for the trading port, the unknown part was copper. The merchants have been friendly; brought rye seeds and sheep. (and of cause often things you don't need, but that's Banished life)

I'm not sure, I like copper as construction material. For what would such a building need that much copper? But it's not worse, than all that iron, vanilla buildings use, so why not. It makes a lot of fun, that the buildings need a lot of different building materials. I can very well live with coppar (and iron).

I like your lumbermaker. It makes 10 lumber from 4 logs (if my notes are correct). Some other lumber mills need several logs to make one lumber. I never liked that. Why did people go from logs to lumber in life? It was an easier way to build, than to cut the logs on site with an ax. You can use the material more efficient. I also like, that there are several options to build these "second stage houses" equivalent to vanilla stone houses. They are not only different in the look, you can choose the building materials. The vanilla house need logs, stone and iron, other similar (NMT small Houses) need lumber and stones or what I have started to build; lumber and brick.

I'm not so sure about fodder-thatch as fuel. Yes sure, it is very practical at the beginning, not having to cut that much firewood. But now I have built a fodder farmer. It doesn't produce much yet. I guess it take some years, but it looks like much of it goes into the houses as fuel. I wanted to build a stable. What will my horses eat, if people steal their food just to burn? We will see how this work in the next few years.

As I said I got rye seeds. Nice to process it to flour and bread. The mill increase the amount in a reasonable way. It looks like flour is inedible. I know, some people demand this. I find it weird, that Bannis couldn't bake their own bread at home, if they like. They'll rather starve, even if the barns are full of flour.  :-\ Unfortunately the bakery decrease the amount of food. (again if my numbers are right) 16 flour makes 12 bread. The tradevalue increases however. I now remember, how I supported whole settlements by exporting the pies from this bakery. But honestly, I don't find, that bread or pie are "natural trading products". I rather like the amount to be increased, the only way to give a product a higher value for the population. Not everything has to be good trading products, but I like every production step to add some kind of value.

First picture


This picture is for @brads3. You can see Rosannis 19 years old, still a student. She doesn't even live very far from school.

Second picture

Here's a small trading/production center.

You can see the content in my stores. There's a lot of overpowered blueberries but not so much meat (not that overpowered). There is 1000 venison in the port but I haven't sold any yet.

Third picture

The center of the town. We can afford to eat bread, even if it's a loss to produce. You can see in the background, that the woodcutter have reached the limit. I try to "flood the place" with firewood, so I can save some fodder for the stable, I plan to build next.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 06, 2018, 06:01:03 AM
are the houses using firewood and thatch-fodder equally?is it being used more by houses near forests and farther from wood cutters? is it growing back in the forests or are the foresters getting more logs than thatch?
      NILLA.do you think having a bundler to bundle the thatch before the houses would solve it or do you have a better idea?

      your take on flour and baked goods is different.there is 2 value points. 1 the amount and 2 the trade value.boosting the amount helps the bannies than trade but balances the trade also. though processing food in RL gives less food i can understand your idea.game wise it is sensible.haven't thought of or heard it put the way you have before.it would give a player more reason to process food than just to trade it away.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 06, 2018, 07:03:38 AM
the story behind thatch-fodder , is mainly to use in stables and get the greenhouse chain UP
also people asked to merge my fodder with the Thatch of nat div which i did. some mods ask thatch to be used as building materials.
but also , they set it up so can be used as firewood to heat home which i didnt said no
but the main use of all this is still greenhouses.

about the hunter.... bah you have only 1 building and the hunter buildings are very dependant of what it cross its radius.
and in total you have 1 single hunter . 1000 food for 1 hunter is still alot.

it is not a feature you put on the ground and get all the 50 deers around be instantly killed like magic ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 06, 2018, 10:17:29 AM
@brads3 , I can't say, if they use firewood and thatch fuel equally. I haven't looked at it that thorough. It seems so but maybe @RedKetchup knows. I just looked and found thatch in two buildings, both near the market. At the moment there's more thatch, than firewood in the market, so that might be the explanation.

It doesn't look like there will be much thatch and flowers in a normal forest circle, once new trees are planted. Maybe some at the outher edge, spread from close meadows.

I don't find a bundler is  such a good idea. The good thing with thatch as fuel in this mod, is that it could be used right away, without building anything. Perfect at the beginning of a game and also longer in a very small settlement (Adam and Eve). If you have to build a bundler first, you might as well build a chopper. And as Red says; it's primary there to be used as fodder. I have no stables yet, so I can't say, if there will be enough left for the horses. Maybe it works well. Maybe I will like it; see it as one more nice challenge, to distribute the thatch between the stables and the houses in a good way.

Yes, you're right @RedKetchup , it's one single hunter used a few years so the numbers don't say much and 1000 meat is a lot. That's why I said, I will write down some numbers. And I'm glad, that the normal hunter doesn't work like the crazy huntress in my North game, a while ago, who killed some 30 deer in a short time. ;) But I have seen, that the number of animals gets down after a while in other mods. Especially those, who uses one hunter in a smaller circle than yours. It was quite obvious, that the number of kills were larger then the growth.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 06, 2018, 01:17:42 PM
NILLA,i take it from your pics that fodder-thatch is flagged as firewood. RED and i talked about those flags a while back. there were too many things under the misc and he changed it to help the fodder mod work smoother.i am curious as to your thought on the flags. when you hit the firewood limit will it stop the fodder now?
     i agree with you on a A&E start the thatch can be handy to burn.the game i am in now i have control by using my firewood limit.when i kept it down the houses used the thatch.as i increase the firewood they don't as much but will if a processor uses the firewood. it is a nice safety.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 07, 2018, 07:37:09 AM
This is a nice game; new things to discover all the time. But this is a cursed settlement! Look at the bottom of the first picture. That one with all the menus. There's bin a lot of deaths in a short time (not old age). Did you make any changes here @RedKetchup? Or is it just bad luck? And you were right about the overpowered meat production. It varies a lot, but normal-good years are too high. You can see some hunters menus cut in here as well. The annual meat production is everything between 360 and 1680.

I've built my stables and a greenhouse. It works well enough, even if some of the fodder is used as fuel. I've made some experimenting with more and less firewood in my store and have been looking around a bit more thorough. I think that they prefere firewood. Only if there's no firewood in the market (or closest stockpile) they take thatch. There was more thatch in the houses, when I had one vendor at the market. There was always thatch there, when I looked but not always firewood, the one vendor couldn't fill it fast enough. When I increased the number of vendors, the amount of thatch in the houses went down. I make the conclusion; if they can get firewood, they leave the fodder/thatch to the horses.

It looks like fodder/thatch has more than one "flag". It's stored on stockpiles for fuel, construction and some of it even lands in the fodder barn, seldom enough, unfortunately. (see second picture)

Despite, these disadvantages. The greenhouse chain works. The Fodder farmer produces, also when the chopper has reached its limit. It might be different the other way around, like @carolinafan95 tells in that other thread. I find the fodder production low. I remember times at the beginning, when it was ridiculously high. (Don't get me wrong, that's NOT what I want.) Maybe you have made the reduction a bit "too well". I don't know, @RedKetchup  how many stables you want one big meadow to suppost and how many greenhouses for one stable. If I look at my production numbers in this game;

-2 fodder farmer produces about 150 fodder (and about the same amount of flowers) every year. Say 1/3 of it is used as fuel. I don't think you can fully stop it.
-100 fodder can go to the stables. Together with the same amount of water, it makes 300 fertilizer (educated worker). Since I only need one greenhouse so far, I only have one worker in the stables. It produced 120-180 dung each year. But if you put 2 worker in the stables, I'm sure it will produce 300.
-One greenhouse produces about 2000 food. 2 fertilizer and 2 water gives about 28 food (I think there are small differences depending on the crop): One greenhouse needs around 140 fertilizer.

Conclusion:
1 meadow with 2 fodder farmer can support one stable with 2 worker, that can supply 2 greenhouses with fertilizer and produce 4000 food. You'll need some water as well, so say; 6,5 people making 4000 food. It's reasonable, but this way to produce, need more space than normal farming. I wouldn't mind, if the fodder production was doubled; if 2 fodderfarmer could support 2 stables with 2 worker each, that could support 4 greenhouses. 8000 food produced by 2+4+4+1 =11 people means 725 each. A good farmer can produce that, too. The area of meadow, stables and greenhouses is about 4000 tiles. You could produce a lot more food on that space, if you made fields (of cause more farmers than 8 are needed), so it would not be too overpowered.

In any case; the chain works. I would continue building it, even with the low fodderproduction. It's beautiful and nice.

One other thing, that's not beautiful and nice, are the messy stockpiles, with all the materials. I would like to have some storehouse. I've been looking for your NMT hardware and general stores. I haven't found them and I do miss them. I hope you have plans to add them or/and something else, where we can put all materials out of sight. One of the great things with the NMT: Ground floor; some kind of store, on top; homes. Always loved that idea. 

First picture

Death! Men and beast!

Second picture

The fodder barn, nice located close to the stables, far away from possible "burners", isn't very popular,! At least not for fodder! I've been watching people carrying their bundles, passing the barn, to put it on the marked stockpiles for fuel and construction materials.  :-\ ???
As my pal @brads3 always says; Bannis have a mind of their own!  ::)

Third picture

Messy stockpiles.

I don't fully know which material is stored on which of these specialized stockpiles. No big problem, I'll find out, but maybe that would be something to tell in a Wiki. I like these with a combination of wood/fuel and iron ore/iron. Very good idea.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 07, 2018, 01:03:17 PM
     i don't envy the modders having to juggle things to find a balance. looks like RED has changed the hunters to be more like the tower hunters. those numbers do differ from year to year. the values of the fur and meat is different too. RED has it set randomly but i wonder if he did balance it by values in some way.years that you have more deer and leather are offset by years of bear and furs,which are valued higher. i am more used to them. i do like to use my mods to help push my leather up and my venison. i have the pine mod and RED's older hunting cabin. i don't mind the randomness of the tower hunters and variety. it is nce to have my other options as i have more uses of the leather than just coats.you will need more tailors since you have different coats at once.and you can have more butchers or meat processors. my bannies seem to let the duck meat stockpile and then make duck roasts.
      how do you like the new gathering ability? i notice your hunters got bored or didn't see deer so they collected herbs and mushrooms.at least your map doesn't seem to be growing as many onions as mine is. i think the system is neat and the bannies waste less when clearing or planting trees too.

        i am not sure what to say about your fodder.you have different numbers than the garden utility mod that i am using. i have over 600 fodder with 2 workers,almost 300 ferilizer also with 2 workers,feeding 2 greenhouses totaling 2350 food. 1 greenhouse is a ways away and these bannies aren't wanting to store fertilizer in the north market. any other time they would store it everywhere.the  stable runs out of fodder just as spring starts.you are claiming to prouce half as much fodder,and half of it is flowers. yet you claim more food.and as much fertilizer.
       i understand your reasoning but disagree with some of it.i do think you are right about the fodder being low.though apparently thestable is giving you the same output.i think your worker finds too many flowers. do you have a big enough well to run 2 stables and 4 greenhouses by itself? i would think you need closer to 3 wells to do that. i think 8000 total food is high. you do have to consider you have flowers that give high valued trade goods plus some is being burned.
         that being said,i do think the fodder should produce more than the way the garden utility is set. when RED fixed it from being too over-productive,i do think he dropped it too far. i am surprised that your fodder is so low but keeps the stable fed even.how bout we split the difference?1 fodder with 2 workers feeds 1 stable with 2 workers. but each stable supplies 3 greenhouses at 1500 food? if a player didn't have as many workers 1 at the fodder and stables would still give enough for 1 greenhouse.
          did RED also give you a cow stable that would produce milk as an option instead of the horse stable? that would benefit your food outputs a lot.hope i didn't confuse you too badly.

     
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: adelegarland on February 07, 2018, 03:07:02 PM
@brads3
and another thing...   can't produce enough firewood, I think the fodder is counted as burnable and its messing with the output of the firewood cutters.  I'm not conversant with the way you figure the amounts in your post, but I've been playing all day and am having a bunch of trouble getting firewood and coal.   The coal is being used in almost every process of manufacture and so when I need it to make steel tools, there isn't any available.  I've been building mines and more mines to try to get enough and it just doesn't work.   Perhaps some of the processes that are using coal can use something else?

As for milk, red's Frisian cows give milk, but the cattle don't.  (Mind you - I am playing with all my other mods enabled, I want to test for compatibility issues)  I started with cattle and got no milk, purchased Frisians and yippee - Milk! 
Just my two and a half cents.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 07, 2018, 03:20:31 PM
did you increase the firewood and construction limits? are you using the stop burning coal mod? in your case,i would keep some notes. when you finish this map you may want to adjust the mod order to tweak things.with mine,i have like 4 types of cows.not all get used most of the time,depends on what the merchants send. with all your mods you must have lots of seeds for crops available.glad to see you haven't found conflicts.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 07, 2018, 04:44:26 PM
This is a nice game; new things to discover all the time. But this is a cursed settlement! Look at the bottom of the first picture. That one with all the menus. There's bin a lot of deaths in a short time (not old age). Did you make any changes here @RedKetchup?

i think LOL you really have a cursed seed RNG number ^^ i didnt edited the % death numbers at all. you really have a bad seed for that.



Hunters i agree it is random, depending where you put your cabin, and the very different packs of different animal crossing its radius.
in my build presently, i ve reduced the overall % amount of packs roaming around by another -50% layer. it also helps the graphic game engine to have less things roaming around.

i think it is OK to have better hunting years... and worst hunting years. thats the way of the nature i think. we need to know that hunters now are doing more kills per year and it is probably normal that the animal population is not regenerating fast enough now. maybe i will have to look at that.

but Brad seems to be maybe confused ?  yes the hunters look more like a Watching Tower but you need to know that hunters are really hunting (not create food from thin air like the towers). I finally succeeded to do what was the real intention of towers should have got but i wasnt good enough to do that back in time.




but the berries LOL is still laughing at me . i did reduced the number of spawns by 50% and i am still getting too many like if i did nothing. i maybe have to look back at this again and try something else to reduce that. Keep in mind... thats good though for the  Tavern !!! tons of berries for making ale LOL




all the fooder chain numbers have changed when i deleted MY fodder files and adopted the Nat Div fodder files. People asked for a blend and a consolidation of the 2 technology(the 2 chains)
in GardenWall i was asking 12-16 items created while NatDivThatch is only 1-2 created. thats a HUGE difference. instead to have 12,000-16,000 fodder, you have 1000-2000 Fodder-Thatch.

and the difference also, NatDivThatch is a custom5(Construction), but also a Fuel and a WoodFuel. thats how Bartender set it up. I've took their files and i respected it entirely, i didnt made any change.
Maybe i should edit it ? maybe i should delete the "fuel" and "woodfuel" part of it ?

will it be less confusing ? and maybe be less of a destructive component for your prefered gaming habits ? for sure, it will change the dynamic of the current mod, i think overall it will make it harder.... (you will start to lose a lot more Logs to supply back the Firewood chain)

And I will do it :) i will delete "fuel" "woodfuel" flags and it will be back to "custom4 - Natural resource harvested not through mining. aka: Materials flag" (i will have to change flags of stables)
And yes i can do a "cow stable that produce milk" to compensate :)
That way it will stop to mess around with your firewood production :)




And hopefully @Nilla , i ll have some "closed" storage to offer you :) and better if you can give me exactly the name and utility of each building i should do for NMT3.0 RK Choice Ed. :) That way you will have exactly the storage buildings you will expect to have.




only Red Freisian and Freisian Cow give milk. Cattle should not give milk. Cattle gives double beef when slaughtered.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 07, 2018, 05:47:09 PM
RED,i  would hold up on changing the fodder-thatch limit flag. it would be better to let NILLA run it and give more feedback on that.
@adelegarland is using several mods. it is quite possable that another mod is messing with her.if you kept the thatch custom5,construction limit,then it shouldn't be affecting her firewood. i do hope she keeps some notes and plays with her mod order to see what affects it might have.
    don't mind me and NILLA,we agree and disagree at the same time a lot.i can understand the way you did the changes to fodder and stable outputs. the way you explainded it made sence.otherwise the fodder could take over the maps. finding a good balance is never easy.
   glad to hear the hunters are dependant on animal herds. that will make it more interesting.wonder what would happen with a hunter like from the mini or FO. mod? they are set to hunt deer. will they kill any animal and give deer or have less deer?
      BT had issues with the blueberry too. i think it was after he upgraded the nat div.they were taking over maps and chiking out the trees.it was toward the end of the blog on CC. not sure if he even fixed it.
    when you do markets,can you add a covered wagon for food and some other carts?  the game i am in at the moment i keep looking for something to move the misc,fertilizer. catys are handy to supply BS,woodcutters,greenhouses,tailors,etc.      thank you
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 07, 2018, 06:01:16 PM
if you kept the thatch custom5,construction limit,then it shouldn't be affecting her firewood.

i can also keep the Custom5 - Construction limit too. it is just sad to see it in my mind that should be more a natural resource harvested than a construction resource ^^ but i can bypass that idea ^^

i think overall, it is always better to have only 1 limit / 1 flag per item instead to see it count many times in many different limits and flags.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 07, 2018, 06:18:10 PM
yep,i am surprised it messes with the firewood.the nat div thatch doesn't. what do you have fodder and fertilizer and flowers for limit flags?as long as they are not all the same it should work fine.hard part with the flags is too many under 1 limit stops something else from producing.such a dilema.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 07, 2018, 06:45:19 PM
yep,i am surprised it messes with the firewood.the nat div thatch doesn't.

it was certainly does because the file was set like that
note, maybe because my grass is alot more present maybe it is a side effect.

about fertilizer and flowers ?:  Custom 7 : Miscellenous
both.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 07, 2018, 07:23:32 PM
what about flowers under materials?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 07, 2018, 07:42:28 PM
what about flowers under materials?

we also have clay and sand as material
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Discrepancy on February 07, 2018, 07:48:55 PM
I've never been too fond of thatch as a fuel, okay for getting the fires started and a quick bit of heat...

... Thatch as Materials (Custom4),
Fertilizer as Materials also.
Flowers as Miscellaneous (Custom7)... unless they are edible...


 ;D just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Turis on February 08, 2018, 01:34:32 AM
Warning: "Do not recommend using fertilizer as fuel inside homes."
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 08, 2018, 04:49:18 AM

i think it is OK to have better hunting years... and worst hunting years. thats the way of the nature i think. we need to know that hunters now are doing more kills per year and it is probably normal that the animal population is not regenerating fast enough now. maybe i will have to look at that.

but Brad seems to be maybe confused ?  yes the hunters look more like a Watching Tower but you need to know that hunters are really hunting (not create food from thin air like the towers). I finally succeeded to do what was the real intention of towers should have got but i wasnt good enough to do that back in time.

I agree, variation is good. It's hard to say, yet how the regeneration of animals work in this game. Until now, I only had one hunter in the cabin. I usually never use more than one in a hunters cabin. In a vanilla game, there's not much differens in production between 1 and 3. I will increase the number to see what happens. If the regeneration is too slow, the output should be smaller after some years. I'll tell you, what I see.

And yes, that's one of my favourite occupations; making @brads3 confused. Can't help it. ;)

The fact, that you could spam the map with hunting towers, without less production in each, disturbed me, too. It's much better with "real hunters".

but the berries LOL is still laughing at me . i did reduced the number of spawns by 50% and i am still getting too many like if i did nothing. i maybe have to look back at this again and try something else to reduce that. Keep in mind... thats good though for the  Tavern !!! tons of berries for making ale LOL

Believe me or not, I've just built a tavern. Not to export ale, just to give my Bannis some booze! They also feast on cheese, bread and cake, not the best way to feed them economical. It's a pity, that they don't get happier from that. Or to give them perfume and jewels. How happy could they be, if they got these luxury goods? Maybe you clever modders will find a way.

........maybe i should delete the "fuel" and "woodfuel" part of it

will it be less confusing ? and maybe be less of a destructive component for your prefered gaming habits ? for sure, it will change the dynamic of the current mod, i think overall it will make it harder.... (you will start to lose a lot more Logs to supply back the Firewood chain)

And I will do it :) i will delete "fuel" "woodfuel" flags and it will be back to "custom4 - Natural resource harvested not through mining. aka: Materials flag" (i will have to change flags of stables)
And yes i can do a "cow stable that produce milk" to compensate :)
That way it will stop to mess around with your firewood production :)

i think overall, it is always better to have only 1 limit / 1 flag per item instead to see it count many times in many different limits and flags

I agree, that it's "cleaner" with only one flag for each material. It's not really confusing now, and it's fully manageable. Besides; to be forced to leave the prefered gaming habits is a good thing! ;)  I will not say, that one setting is harder than the other. You just have to consider different things. Personally, I would prefere fodder only. That's the great and unique part of your mod. I also see the point, if you have buildings with thatched roof, that it will need thatch as construction material.   

Maybe you can solve it by adding a small, simple, cheap workplace, where your fodder thatch, could be made to construction material or fuel. OK, now we're back to CC bundler. @brads3 would be happy. But this might be a "clean" way. If you make it small and cheap, it could also be a good start-up replacement for a woodchopper.

And hopefully @Nilla , i ll have some "closed" storage to offer you :) and better if you can give me exactly the name and utility of each building i should do for NMT3.0 RK Choice Ed. :) That way you will have exactly the storage buildings you will expect to have.

I've been thinking. This question is not easy to answer.

The simplest solution would be to make a barn, maybe in a few different sizes, that can hold all materials, that usually are stored on stockpiles. This would tidy the place up and bring the stuff out of sight.

Could these simple mixed barns be improved somehow? Of cause, some buildings for special materials, with or without vendors could be possible. But here comes the complicated part. As I said, I very much liked the NMT stores with the 2 and 3 floor houses on top. But that was in easy times, with a few materials in one store and a few products in the other. You built one store where wood, stone, iron and coal were brought, located one or a few woodchopper and blacksmiths close. They put their products in the other store. Building material was also collected to the "center", where it could be used. With these chains of production, it's not that easy anymore.

Here I think, those of you, who have played this mod longer and also you who have more experience of playing CC, with all their production chains and some special stores, could add better arguments than I can. That's why I will move this discussion to your development thread, @RedKetchup and add a few more thought from myself.

Iīll show you some pictures and write a bit about my game later.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 08, 2018, 06:29:00 AM
   nah,i am not confused. it is crazy how we see things the same and agree yet different and disagree.or we see a situtaion as a issue yet have totally different ways and ideas on fixing it.we do that all the time.sometimes we are both right and sometimes both wrong.LOL.
     for example. you dislike the tower hunters cause players will use it to cheat.some will but most won't. why you want to take a toy away from all of us though?? you is just mean. in CC ,i have the fort and guard towers. those towers have no "work function" so nobody goes there.RED found a nice way to fix that. i agree that we shouldn't spam the map and use it as a cheat.they are a handy tool though.i  figure the hunter goes out and hunts away from the tower not just from it. you can hunt areas that can't be hunted normally. like the fodder and thatch meadows.around crop fields to keep deer and rabbits out. or as i have had to do before,on edges og the outer mountains of the map.this stretches the map some. it is understood the hunter climbs looking for mountain goats or goes past the mpa edge.
      that in no way is ment to be a complaint. i actually like what RED did. it sounds interesting and is a realistic change to the hunters.there will be times or places that tower hunters will be useful. we have options and can add the training fort mod.

           i know you can't help it too. i had that yesterday looking at your fodder numbers. i understood your logic but disagreed  on how to fix it.RED and i have tossed ideas back and forth on that for a while. we disagree on some too. he is the modder so has copywrites. i can't argue with that at all.finding a good balance is never easy. they are always a juggle. it will take several tests and some loger tests as well.
     
       NILLA,did you scroll over those different piles to see if they show what each is? we have 2 sets of different piles in CC. 1 normal and 1 invisible ground. they have a menu when you scroll over to say logs,stone,construction,firewood,etc. did you get confused by the icons or because you aren't used to them?
       another 1 where we agree but not. i never liked spamming piles all over the map. that is why i used SLINK's markets. we have TOM's,EB's, and RED's wharehouses plus KID's covers now.yet i seem to always want something different. most forests i am using NECORA's pine storage.the piles do serve a purpose. near a woodshopper,you can store logs  in 1 and firewood in another. or give the furnace a quick place to store or the sand pit.
       there is no easy fix to markets.a barn or market that stores everything doesn't work very well or not everywhere.EB's set and KID's shed sets help. hopefully,you come up with a different idea for them.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 08, 2018, 07:24:56 AM
I promised you some pictures earlier.

First picture

The gemcutter and the jeweler are lovely. Just a pity, that they can be used so little. They don't find many gems. And the cutter usually make the gem less valuable. But I guess it's some kind of gambling; If you're lucky he'll find a valuable diamond.

It would be nice, if there was some more buildings in this very pleasant style. Why not an inn. That would fit. I've never liked the look of the vanilla brewery. You're version of it, is slightly improved but a brewery looking like the gemcutter/jeweler, would be great!

Second picture

I have decided to buy and try every crop, I can get. I don't know if this was a very good idea. Palmtrees in the snow. They even harvest some coconuts.  :-\ Is it possible to make some "temperature tweaking", so that even if they canīt die, at least they will not produce anything in this climate?

Third picture

Isn't this a bug. I find this squash looks more like beetroots.

You can see that there are a lot of cake in my store. Economically it makes more sense to produce cake than bread, if you only want to feed your population. I also have a lot of honey, I want to "get rid" of in a way that make sense. Isn't the apiary, too productive? It's a small producer with no input. It produces 1100-1500 honey each year. Most of the time I looked, the beekeeper was a not very productive couple; he an uneducated nomad, she a 18 years younger local educated girl. She was miserable, ― star, as they got married and he didn't make her any happier.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 08, 2018, 07:46:29 AM
good job,NILLA. glad to see you test all crops.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: adelegarland on February 08, 2018, 08:40:39 AM
@brads3 You requested a load order  - here it is.  So far, there are no obvious problems, no crashes or weirdness. I am about to pull out some of the resource adjusting mods (starred) and try it out again.  I'll try to play it out to 25 years or so.
Wish me luck!

2/8/2017 LOAD ORDER

RK EDITOR'S CHOICE
*STORAGE STASH
*SPECIALIZED STOCKPILES BY DELVER-EMB
FLAX PATCH
NEW PINE FLORA
PINE SET
NATURAL DIVERSITY 1.1
EB SV VANILLA MINE OVERRIDE
DS BLAST FURNACE
DS SMALL VILLAGE HOMES
DS JETTY & BRIDGE
DSSV STORAGE
DSSV WAGON VENDOR
DSSV PRODUCTION
DSSV SERVICES
DS SMALL TOWN HOME
KID AMONG TREES
DS ROASTED NUTS
KID MEDIEVAL GRACE
KID TREE DAYDREAM
KID FOREST OUTPOST V2 NAT DIV
KID FENCELESS PASTURES
KID WILD WEST
KID WIND SAWMILL
KID WORKPLACE
KID MARKET PUZZLE
KID TINY SEPARATE
KID ROWHOUSE HOUSING
KID ROWHOUSE BUSINESS
KID PLIMOTH PLANTATION
KID TEQUILLA MOD
KID VEG GARDEN
KID MISSION
KID TOOL EMPORIUM
KID PLIMOTH HARMONIZED
KID GOTHIC FARM
KID TWILIGHT HERBS
KID TEQUILA ADD ON
KID A LOT OF SEEDS TRADER
KID ABANDONED PLACES
KID ABBEY
KID ANIMAL SHED
KID BAKERY & GARDEN
KID BED AND BREAKFAST
KID COLONIAL HOUSING
KID COLONIAL RESOURCES
KID FOREST DEEP
KID FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD
KID MORE HOUSES DARK
KID HOUSE BOAT
KID GOTHIC FSNTASY
KID GRANNY PARK
KID HOUSES FOR SALE
KID MORE HOUSES DARK
PIGS CC MOD
DUCKS CC MOD
BISON CC MOD
MINI BUILDINGS
SAMPLE FIG TREE
SOYBEANS
RED COTTAGE
TJURKO MILL
*BETTER FIELDS RAGEINGNONSENSE
*MORE CLIMATES MOD ALEX HOCKLEY
REAL CALENDAR
SOUTH AFRICAN HOUSING
*INCREASED RESOURSES COMBINED MINRATHOUS
PICK ME UP
UNLIMITED MINES AND QUARRIES
NECORA AN EMPTY SQUARE
CRYSTAL CLIFFS
MARITIMES COVERINGS
MARITIMES DECORATIONS
MARITIMES DOCK SET
MARITIMES HUMBLE CONSTRUCTION
MARITIMES LOG CABINS
MARITIMES PEI SHORE
MARITIMES STORAGE COLLECTION
NS INSHORE FISHERIES
PORT ROYAL
SHERBROOKE VILLAGE
RED TRAINING CAMP MAIN
LEGHORN
HUNTING UNLIMITED
SAWMILL RAGEINGNONSENSE
*INTENSIFIED FISHING DOCK DIO JODIANTO
WOODCUTTER +3 DAVIDEM
STONE BRIDGE MR FLOPSIE
NORDIC WAREHOUSE
POTATO ALE
SETTLER'S TENTS
SLINK'S HOGS
SOPIARY
HORSES CC
IZBA
LLAMAS CC
*MORE STABLE POPULATIONS
NORDIC HOUSES
FLATTEN TERRAIN TOOL
FAST ROAD MOD TEST
ENHANCED HERBALIST
EB TOMBSTONE OVERRIDE
HUNTING AND GATHERING
DEER LIVESTOCK
BANISHED UI MOD
DS ROADS
CREEPY CEMETERY
CC TERRAIN TOOLS
STEPH'S GRAIN SILO
MOUNTAINLESS MINES AND QUARRIES
BRAD'S SMOKING SHED
BETTER SCHOOLS
BEEF TOMATO
BIGGER WHEELBARROWS
BOSTON HOUSE
COLORFUL LITTLE HOUSES
COUNTRY HOUSE
I SEE FIRE
KETCHUP
OLD BLACKSMITH
OLD HUNTER
OLD TAILOR
TINY SMALL BARNS
TRAINING CAMP DECO
TRAINING CAMP STORAGE
WAREHOUSE INC
WOODEN BUTCHER
CC DOCK SET
SMALL TIPI
BUSY LABORERS
CARROTS
BRUSSELS SPROUTS
DS CELTIC HOUSE AND VILLAGE
DS HARBOROUGH SCHOOL
DS STORAGE
KID STONE HOUSE ADDDON
KID MOUNTAIN MANSION
DS TUNNELS
DS PICK AND HEN
KID TANGERINE
EB VILLAGE
EB VILLAGE HOUSING SET
EB MARKET SET
EB SMALL VILLAGE
EB STORAGE SET
EB CHURCH
EB PRODUCTION SET 1
EB PRODUCTION SET 2
EB MATERIALS STORE
EB FARM AND LOG HOUSES
EB DECO
EB GRAPE
REINDEER HIDES
DS BRIDGE CROSSING
DS BRYCE BUTCHER
DS CREST BLACKSMITH
DS LUMBER MILL
DS STONE BRIDGE
DS STONE HOVELS
DS TOWNHOUSES
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 08, 2018, 09:14:44 AM
OMG! @brads3 youīve found your equal!  ;D

I play one mod only!  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Turis on February 08, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
How long does the game take to load up when you start it?

I love mean women as much as I love to fight.  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: adelegarland on February 08, 2018, 09:55:03 AM
update - Hot News! Storage stash WORKS!   Must be at the top of the load order as in my load order and used with Delver's Specialized stockpiles.  I tested with the wood/logs resource and with plain rk's wood only stock pile was getting appx 22 units per each tile of space.  With the Stash and Delver's stockpiles i got 144 units.  Can I get a Hallelujah?  Finally got that question answered!

And there are only 162 mods, I cut it back from over 200! LOL
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 08, 2018, 10:02:26 AM
wait wut ???

how comes you have such "squash" ??? i think it should be radishes or turnips !!!!!

i need to go check the stringtable to see is a bug from my side....


edit : in the string table all is normal :
      { String _name = "Radish";            String _text = "Radish"; }
      { String _name = "SeedRadish";            String _text = "Radish Seeds"; }
      { String _name = "Turnip";            String _text = "Turnip"; }
      { String _name = "SeedTurnip";            String _text = "Turnip Seeds"; }


edit2: all in my files are ok and normal ???


question: Can happended you selected radish (ou turnip) for the crop and realized that wasnt the good one you want and the citizens executed your initial demand ??
the next year crop is it still same ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 08, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
oh and about the orchards, i didnt "tweaked" the temperature numbers yet, i still missing some i want....

about honey, but it is alot less productive than the Luke's Apiary (3000-3500 /year with all flags)
you can do mead with it , no ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 08, 2018, 11:29:25 AM
about honey, but it is alot less productive than the Luke's Apiary (3000-3500 /year with all flags)

English people probably know it as a jack of all trades device. Where I come from it's called "egg laying wool-milk sow"  ;D

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/wollmilchsau-thumb.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/wollmilchsau.jpg)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Turis on February 08, 2018, 01:53:31 PM
Weird that an animal which lays eggs, also lactates milk. Well, mammals basically lays eggs inside the ovaries. Did I spell it right?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 09, 2018, 05:58:42 AM
I don't have any idea what made the squash look like that. They harvested weird looking squash that year. I checked again, it was actually squash i the menu. Next year it looked like normal squash. I do change crops and there are turnips in my store, so I must have changed from turnips to squash in a special moment or something. I have tried to trigger this again, without success. So it's not a common thing.

But now I've found weird looking mango! The Mango trees produce lemon. There's no influence from any lemon trees (I got that seed later than the mango) I also made a second mango orchard, same result: lemon.

I don't know if this is intentional, if you just forgot or if I just haven't found the right building. The tailor can't make any fur coats. It's not a large product but now it has to be exported.

I partly ran the game 5x speed yesterday, that's not so good, because I wanted to look at the output from 3 hunters in the cabin and mostly forgot it. The few times I remembered to look, it didn't look much different from 1 hunter.

First picture

Lemonmango. I cut the menus in a picture from spring. It's easier to see, that's no lemon tree.

I was a bit short on logs to this point, but now I've built another forester and also bought some logs, so we manage.

Second picture

One of my favourite houses. I've tried some different models, but kept the upper parts in classic white, to give it a more unified look.

Third picture

More lemonmango. Now in the tropical part of this village. Soon there will also be a small date plantation! :)  :-\

You can see the content in my stores. it's a wonder, that they are so healthy, considering all that cake! ;)

Fourth picture

Just a few menus from the 3 hunters. They don't look much different from the 1.

The settlement now has 300 inhabitants. Nice and prosperous.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 13, 2018, 05:06:29 AM
Here we go again. I haven't given this game up, neither am I tired of the comments from @Turis. Not at all! :)


I played a little again yesterday and have a few comments and suggestions. I'll tell to the pictures.

First picture

I don't like the tweaked crops. Look at the fields, red marked. It's late summer and they are already all fully harvested. The harvest of orchards haven't even started. I have the "suggested" numbers of farmers, 2 on most of these fields. This is boring. You don't have to put any effort on good locations of barns and houses. It will always be 100% (except when it's late frost in spring).

Second picture

I will again quote @brads3: the Bannis have a mind of their own. Why don't they use these stockpiles for materials close to the pits for clay and sand? (blue marked) There's a lot of clay on the general stockpiles far away (red).

Third picture

This merchant bring a lot of jewelery. I think it's possible to exclude products from merchants. I find these "export only goods" ought to be taken away. No one would buy them anyway.

Fourth picture

Just a small impression from a few old favourites. I don't know how many of those 3 store houses I've built. This shouldn't happen!  >:( :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

I find it too fast and easy to build this big church. But since you want it that way, @RedKetchup; OK! I accept your arguments.

(PS, this entry took a long time. I started this morning, but had to watch Olympic ski cross country in between. We have another gold medal!)  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 13, 2018, 05:36:34 AM
i think the clay in the piles close is being used as fast as you put clay in there.the other pile could have been stocked before the brickmaker was built,carried by laborers,or even dropped when the workers went to get something to eat or herbs.this is normal. if you have merkets it would be less noticeable since then everything can be moved around more.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Hawk on February 13, 2018, 06:45:46 AM
This merchant bring a lot of jewelery. I think it's possible to exclude products from merchants. I find these "export only goods" ought to be taken away. No one would buy them anyway.

I kind of agree with this. I think the jewelry should be export only. I've never bought any, but I have sold a lot.  :)

Just a small impression from a few old favourites. I don't know how many of those 3 store houses I've built. This shouldn't happen!  >:( :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

I've never had that happen. It does take a little patience when building those 3-story houses.  ;) :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 13, 2018, 08:17:48 AM
i can take off the jewelry to sell from merchant
keep in mind, the other cities served with those merchant need also to sell them. thats their bread and butter :P

can you tell me the name of those crops ? i can add a degre or 2 harder
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 13, 2018, 10:42:58 AM
i can take off the jewelry to sell from merchant
keep in mind, the other cities served with those merchant need also to sell them. thats their bread and butter :P

can you tell me the name of those crops ? i can add a degre or 2 harder

......and perfumes...... The merchants aren't stupid. They know that they don't need to offer jewels and perfume in this village. They keep them for the next.

I think all crops are "tweaked", even the vanilla. I just made some screenshots from all crops I have. I made a new field for the radish, just to be able to grow them all. The radish behave a bit different than the others. I think that field was planted late, just because it was new.

I find, that all crops grow too fast. Itīs not bad, that some crops can be harvested early, but not like this and not all.

I'll show you 4 pictures.

1. Late spring. Most crops have grown a lot already.
2. Early summer. The harvest have already begun for some crops.
3. Summer. Some fields are already totally harvested.
4. Late summer. All fields except the radish and the bad located rye are done.

It's a warm nice summer, but it looks similar every year, unless there is a cold spring and some crop freezes. In that case it will never reach 100% and the harvest doesn't start earlier on those fields. I just had such a year.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 13, 2018, 11:47:45 AM
what is your weather condition start ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 13, 2018, 01:58:04 PM
what is your weather condition start ?

fair

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 14, 2018, 04:59:06 AM
I played one more year with the crops menu open. This was a very hot summer. Some crops "reacted better"; they stopped growing when it was hot. This time it was a larger difference. Like the year before, some crops were done in early summer, others took longer to grow and didn't start the harvest until late summer. Even the last; barely was done in early autumn.

Of cause it might be the climate and not the crops that are changed from vanilla. The springs seem to be warm. Anyway it's very easy to farm. I have never seen any crop freeze on the fields in the autumn. In a vanilla game this always happens from time to time.

It also look like some orchards are immortal (or very long living) some are not. I don't know if this is intentional. If you look at the early summer picture above, in may last entry, there are two small orchards next to the diary. Both planted to the same time. One (orange) have renewed trees, the other (grapefruit) all still live. The palm trees also seem to live "for ever".

First picture

Harvest in a hot summer.

Second picture

Look at the content in the barn. Would you like to eat that cake or that cheese? Do you think, that these flowers are good for perfume making? I don't understand, why that barn contains any fertilizer. I've marked it red on the small map. The stables are marked blue. Far away!

This is one thing, that disturbs me: fertilizer in the ordinary barns. Where I come from this "natural fertilizer" is never stored inside buildings, together with food, clothing and other things. We had manure piles outside the stables. The Bannis seem to fancy dung; carrying it around to more or less every barn. So maybe they donīt mind. ::) I would prefere a manure pile; working like a specialized barn, to build close to the stable. That way you could exclude fertilizer from the ordinary barns.

This is an easy game. You can see how few of my people actually have professions. I produce everything myself. On few occasions I have bought some logs.

Third picture

You can use 4 priests in the big church. I can't see any difference between 1 or 4. Is there anything I haven't discovered?

Fourth picture

Winter impression from my tropical part of the village.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 14, 2018, 06:46:05 AM
like i said , i didnt specifically edited the orchards, it is possible there are some weird numbers to the life of the trees there.

crops: probably the base main temp of the crops are way too low so if your temp is a cold summer, maybe they will produce more and stop growing if it become an hot summer. this is why i asked you the temp climate setting of your map, which i still didnt saw your comment.

i know fertilizer is kinda weird to store in barns... i need to find another flag to put them, a flag that is stored in stockpile.
and being stored in stockpile, it would need 3 more new graphics associated to it, a low, med, high pile of buckets to meet the requirement to be shown up in a stockpile.

the big church use same effect as the old universities made... you will need to fill all 4  jobs before adding another new church on the map.


tropical trees. there is no way to tell the game : this map they are not IN and this map they are IN. so you cant control if you can get the seeds or not.
now, the fact i ve let the leaves live through winter or not : yes i ve let the leaves stay all year long cause in a desert map, with hot temp, seeing them lose leaves in winter because the game associate the "lose leaves" with "months" instead of "temperature" make them look very weird in an bermuda/californian climate without leaves... alot more weird than seeing them with leaves in the snow.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 14, 2018, 08:55:03 AM
I did answer about the climate, yesterday in that extra very small entry.
what is your weather condition start ?

fair

Couldn't it be easier to make a special manure pile, like a barn. You wouldn't need to see any bucket of dung. I would like the fertilizer to be stored alone, with nothing else, not even on stockpiles together with firewood and building materials.

It's good that the palm trees don't lose their leaves. It doesn't disturbs me that they are in the game, not at all. Normally I wouldn't have grown any on such a map. But very nice on a desert map. But this is a test, so I grow palmtrees in the snow. But as I said, they seem immortal, like some other trees. I'm not sure, if this is bad or good. I only want to tell.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 14, 2018, 11:08:34 AM
I did answer about the climate, yesterday in that extra very small entry.
what is your weather condition start ?

fair

Couldn't it be easier to make a special manure pile, like a barn. You wouldn't need to see any bucket of dung. I would like the fertilizer to be stored alone, with nothing else, not even on stockpiles together with firewood and building materials.

It's good that the palm trees don't lose their leaves. It doesn't disturbs me that they are in the game, not at all. Normally I wouldn't have grown any on such a map. But very nice on a desert map. But this is a test, so I grow palmtrees in the snow. But as I said, they seem immortal, like some other trees. I'm not sure, if this is bad or good. I only want to tell.


we would need to see how they grow in harsh climate.

i ll check about palmtrees :)
i know to compensate the poor output of orchards, i know i ve put like 3x much longer lives...

about fertilizer... you know everything works with flag .... i cant target just "RawMaterialFertilizer.rsc" i need to target .... Custom7 which is ... Miscelleneous.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Gatherer on February 14, 2018, 11:19:28 AM
Are custom 8 and 9 still reserved for future use? Sounds like a good time to use one of those in the present.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 18, 2018, 04:27:21 AM
I've just read, that there's a new version of this mod. Perfect timing. I wanted to end this map now anyway.

First a small summary of my experience of this mod so far.

Do I like it? Yes, of cause I do. It's a quality mod! It's nice, when every building have a new look; a "Red look". It's nice to see the familiar NMT buildings, in many different shapes. It's nice to find out what material is needed and to produce them. The fodder farming is genius, good that it's a part of this mod. There are other very nice things, like the flat mines, lumber, brick and glass production.

Do I like everything? No, there are some things, where I have some "problems" with this mod. First, it makes the game too easy for my taste. I know, how hard it is to balance and I also know, that it's impossible to make it right for everyone. It's good that the output from some producers, are set down in the next version. I will try my next game on "harsh" and also see, if I find some other options, that will make the game more challenging.

A second thing, that I want to mention is diversity. Diversity? Isn't that a good thing? Yes, in some ways it's a good thing. It's good, if it gives you a variety of things to choose among: It's good, that there are a more maps. It's good, that buildings have different versions, with different building materials needed. It's good, that there are numerous crops (even if the menu by the merchant is loooong, but I can live with that). But I find the diversity rather annoying, when it's forced on you. I don't need all these different berries from the gatherer. I like the vanilla version with only "berries" , including all kind of berries better. I don't need all these different animals to be hunted. Maybe the vanilla "deer" only could be extended a bit but deer, boar and "small gem" would be enough for me. I know, many people couldn't get enough of this kind of diversity, but to me, it has no purpose. It only make the inventory lists longer.

How would I like this mod to develop further?

I'm very pleased, that you've added other ground floor buildings than homes to the NMT houses. Maybe we could also see some productions shops here in the future? A baker, butcher, tailor.....

You have introduced copper as natural resource found on the ground and possible to mine. Copper can be used for tools and as building material. I'm not 100% happy with this. Coppar tools haven't had any importance the last 3000 years. But I don't have to make any copper tools (or the even older stone tools) so I can live with this. (Good diversity, you can choose ;) ) Copper as building material is historically correct. It was used for roofs on larger buildings, but not until around 1900 in more "normal" houses, as pipes and cables. But same as iron as a major construction material in vanilla Banished; I can live with copper, also for more "common buildings". But it would be nice to have some more "historically correct" use of the copper. The problem, as always in Banished, is that the Bannis only need food, clothes, tools and housing. So I guess some copper products would be export only. Not perfect, but maybe you @RedKetchup or someone in this community will think of something clever to further develop this resource.

It would also be nice to have some more challenging options. At the moment, I have no ideas about how to make this, but I'll think a bit more about it during my next game.

First picture

I realized that this nice building was neglected by me. I havenīt built it for a long time. I canīt remember the "living fire". Itīs very ncie! This "fireworker", what does he do?

Second picture

Just a small impression from the town.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Turis on February 18, 2018, 04:58:06 AM
Most applications of copper that I know of are too modern for the scope of Banished except distilleries for moonshine or rum. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 18, 2018, 08:02:01 AM
typical kid. can't male their mind up. want it harder but it is to hard to read now.want more and more but the inventory is to long.probably if we ask her questiong she'll just say"i don't know".

   by harder,what do you actually mean? do you mean the survival aspect? is food too easy to produce? are the field outputs too high? growing seasons too short,so crops aren't frost killed enough? merchant boats bring food in high quantities too often? do mines produce too much so it is easy to accumulate enough copper and iron for the next building stages?

        where is the line between "hard" and smooth? my understanding is RED made the od so you step up to higher grade buidings.these steps mean more mioning and production workers have to be fed.the rewards are more goods to trade and less firewood used.
       personally i think RED added challenges into this. with such nice looking buildings,you can't just build a rustic town no longer.you actually have to think through and build a nice looking settlement if not city. i see it changing playstyles. you have to play more like PAENG with this mod and work to get the town to look good.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 18, 2018, 11:57:16 AM
typical kid. can't male their mind up. want it harder but it is to hard to read now.want more and more but the inventory is to long.probably if we ask her questiong she'll just say"i don't know".

Kid? You may call me a lot of things, but kid? That's new! ;D And I do think, I know what I want. Maybe I have some issues, when it comes to expressing it in English. You must  know, English is my third language, and sometimes it's not easy to find the right words.

I don't want more and more. It's not a question of more or less, it's a question of making sense. If you're referring to my thoughts about copper, I tried to say; Red has introduced copper as a new resource. That's fine! Copper is a natural resource, why not having it in Banished? I only want something that make sense. I don't find tools from copper or coppar alloys fitting in an medieval - early industrial era. I think the Trojan War was fought with copper/bronze weapons and tools from copper were used to that time, too, but that were some 3000 years ago. It was a bronze arrow that killed Achilles but after that, tools or weapon from copper weren't much used. You are right, when you say, that I don't know what I want. I take that! But I threw that ball here anyway. I know how resourceful @RedKetchup and the other modding guys are.

   by harder,what do you actually mean? do you mean the survival aspect? is food too easy to produce? are the field outputs too high? growing seasons too short,so crops aren't frost killed enough? merchant boats bring food in high quantities too often? do mines produce too much so it is easy to accumulate enough copper and iron for the next building stages?

        where is the line between "hard" and smooth? my understanding is RED made the od so you step up to higher grade buidings.these steps mean more mioning and production workers have to be fed.the rewards are more goods to trade and less firewood used.
       personally i think RED added challenges into this. with such nice looking buildings,you can't just build a rustic town no longer.you actually have to think through and build a nice looking settlement if not city. i see it changing playstyles. you have to play more like PAENG with this mod and work to get the town to look good.

What I mean with easy: Yes it's easy to produce food. It's also easy to produce enough building materials, also for the "higher grade buildings". I haven't really traded for more than crops, so I can't say anything about the merchants.

And you are right in asking; where is the line between too hard, smooth and too easy. I'm very well aware, that this is very personal. That's why I said, right from the start, that these are my thoughts, I'm well aware that others think different. I don't expect anything to be changed, just to fit me. I only hope my thoughts will be read and thought a little bit about. If you all find it "bull shit", so be it. I can live with that.

And building like @Paeng? I wish I could. But unfortunately neither of us can. I have tried though to build a bit like you say; different areas in different styles. Of cause that's something this mod gives you the best opportunity to. It's also one of the reasons, that I like this mod. I did say that, too. You would have known if you just would read the whole entry thorough ! ;)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 18, 2018, 12:23:43 PM
bah at least, following your to last posts... i ve gone back to the crops and check the time it takes to fully grow. i ve spoted all the 2months-ish ones and i added an half of season. (0.5)
so in the next build, i would be surprised if there are alot of crop harvested in late summer.

even i pushed back the strawberries which is a  June fruit here.... will harvest later in late summer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 18, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
you know i have to harrass you when i get the chance.plus i gota make up for those times you sneak away. :P
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 19, 2018, 07:37:56 AM
I know @brads3! No need to explain yourself. ;)

@RedKetchup, I don't mind, if some crops, like strawberries and maybe radish, lettuce and some other early vegetables are harvested early, but not all of them. It's even nice, if some grow better if it's cool, some other when it's hot, some can endure a little frost, others not......... But I'm not sure, that's what most people want. 

Anyway I've started the next game on harsh. I'll try to get some crops. it's also a small lake map, so I think I will get a challenge enough, to build something more than 50 peeps on it. I also didn't choose a map, took the first. If you want to grow fast, it's a good map, but really bad if you want an educated population. There are many older children, 6 of them were adults the first year.  ::) ;)

I didn't get very far but there is one thing, I've noticed, that you might think about @RedKetchup:

Some fodder-thatch is harvested, if you want it or not; when you build or when the forester plants trees. I want to build a fodder meadow early anyhow, so I have no problem. But if you don't want to. What will you do with all the thatch? I guess, some kind of "Bundler" to convert it to fuel would be helpful.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 19, 2018, 08:11:35 AM
the bannies will use thatch as firewood and burn it.this saves logs for buildings.since you are on harch,they should use more of it and it won't overfill the piles. didn't i read that it is also a required building material for some things,like pastures?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 20, 2018, 01:51:02 AM
the bannies will use thatch as firewood and burn it.this saves logs for buildings.since you are on harch,they should use more of it and it won't overfill the piles. didn't i read that it is also a required building material for some things,like pastures?

it was. but some people asked to remove the "fuel" part of it cause it messing with the cutter yard firewood limit.
2 group of people want opposite view on this, cant satisfy both.

what if i ask the cutteryard to take those thatch-fodder and convert those into firewood ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: kid1293 on February 20, 2018, 02:20:50 AM
what if i ask the cutteryard to take those thatch-fodder and convert those into firewood ?

Brilliant! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 20, 2018, 02:37:09 AM
now i am all confused. so at the moment it doesn't get burned in houses? i knew you played with the flag but i thought it was still burnable.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 20, 2018, 03:28:55 AM
now i am all confused. so at the moment it doesn't get burned in houses? i knew you played with the flag but i thought it was still burnable.

bah no, asap you delete the "fuel" and "woodfuel" flag you cant burn those in houses.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: brads3 on February 20, 2018, 04:41:36 AM
i see, my thatch is tagged construction, but is burnable and doesn't count against my firewood.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: Nilla on February 20, 2018, 05:32:21 AM
Agree with Kid: brilliant idea! :)

This is a very nice game. No more bugs. Challenging enough. You have to think all the time and make your decisions; how should the few people be used? which material to produce? which building first? Nice! That's the things I like. :)

I can't say much about the changes, from version 8. I only played a few years. I've talked about the covered stockpiles before. I will make some more experimenting to see, how you can and can't build them. Too early for answers.

It looks like the hunter now have the vanilla values. Fine with me. You also somewhere @RedKetchup, that you've tried to reduce the blueberry production.  It looks like you've partly succeeded; it seems less than it was, but still more than vanilla. Taking away the stone from the market footprint is also good. It looked a bit strange in winter. No big thing; but maybe it would be logical to reduce the amount of stone needed, to build it, when you have to plaster the ground extra.

The picture shows a big part of the settlement now.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
Post by: RedKetchup on February 20, 2018, 06:32:44 AM
i see, my thatch is tagged construction, but is burnable and doesn't count against my firewood.

depends from which mod it comes
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 21, 2018, 04:34:31 AM
First picture

This covered stockpile bug came back to the same "barn". I can't demolish the ghosted roofs, so I demolished the barn instead and built a long row of normal specialized stockpiles under roof. I have a couple of other covered stockpiles. No problem by them so far.

Here I collect material for the lighthouse. The mixture of material is good!

Second picture

This is not so good. I think it's possible to make transparent pastures. I would prefere that. The fields also have the "Peak structure" but that doesn't disturb me. It looks rather good, like soil.

Third picture

We've purchased broccoli and radish. Now I like the way they work. It's a harsh climate, so it's not 100% every year but most of the time. The broccoli has been fully harvested in late summer once. I've also seen crops freeze, when the autumn was cold. Good!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 21, 2018, 07:01:22 AM
are you making all those materials for the lighthouse or trading for them? you seemed to go from the start to that building level quickly.where are your farmers,are you micro-managing a lot to have enough workers to process those materials?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 21, 2018, 10:03:18 AM
I would have bought some stone (and logs) if a merchant had brought some, but unfortunately no one came. Instead I built a bridge to the other side of the river to pick some extra stones, and also send a couple of extra workers in the quarry, all other materials are produced in the village. And yes I micromanage quite a lot. I don't need that much of each product, to have all production buildings going all the time. That's also the reason for the light house. I need the inventory, to see easier, when I have to switch product. (I know the normal city hall is cheaper to build but the lighthouse is so nice, that it's worth the extra effort).

And yes, I have to think a bit and use the people, where they are needed the most at the moment. But it works fine. Thatīs the way I like to play.

I don't have many farmers. I just got some seeds a few years ago and need only 2 fields with 1 farmer each. I have a greenhouse, that produces good (mostly corn) and some other food producers, so I manage. I show a screenshot with the inventory. You can also see, that I'm replacing the initial wood houses with better housing, as soon as I have the material. I like the look of the NMT ground floor houses better then the small single houses, so I mostly build them. A bit more expensive but have a better heat economy. And if I later need more housing, I can add a second (and maybe third) floor. 
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 21, 2018, 12:59:36 PM
you absolutely right, i need to add a "recycle icon" to the stockpile ghosted roof.

about pasture, yeah maybe a transparent texture would be better. the peak texture on top of normal vanilla green grass looks weird, as same , the vanilla pasture texture look weird on Peak map texture. so maybe transparent would be the solution.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 22, 2018, 03:09:55 AM
Believe it or not; this time I have pictures with comments on how things look; no balancing today. ;)

First maybe a little bit to the game. It's getting easier now, but I expect, that I will get some more problems, when this small area gets used more. I will also take some nomads, just to mess around a bit.

First picture

This Old Wood Lumber 3 store house is perfect out in the woods (much better than the little brick house). It fits perfect to the surroundings and the other buildings, there's room for many people on a small space; perfact.

Second picture

Fire! It's "funny"; the fire started in a house on the ground floor and spread to the ground floor and first floor of the neighborhouse. The other three apartments in these two building complexes got spared. Good fireinsulation! ??? ;)

I just wanted to show the combination of these new stores with the brick houses. I find the front side look good in every combination I've tried. It's just a pity, that the nice signs with the name of the store disappears, when you set the second floor. But I don't find the back side look good. It's  better to use the "Chapel stone" if you care about how it looks on the backside.

Third picture

Finally got enough stones to pave the market. I'm not so sure about that. Maybe some ghosted stones to put under the market stands or some paving from the start?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 22, 2018, 03:39:34 AM
it is kinda hard on the mind to think to make all those new stores in 8 different textures to match the 2nd-3rd floor you will want to put ontop of these :P
this is the reason i only chose 1 in hope it will still look gook with them all ^^

about your market, i think it looks better like that. i personally dont like to see it all with a road stone texture on the ground at it was....
try to see if you can get used to see it like this.


btw, you will be happy.... i fully integrated the Canal System yesterday :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 22, 2018, 04:45:29 AM
I don't mean you should make them in all textures. We just have to use them the right way. Personally, I think the left building with the tower look better than the other. The lighter brick also look better, or if we want the brick upper floors, we can try to make something on the back side to "block" the sight. It opens up for creativity.

I think it would be better to take away some of my stone tiles and only make some crossing roads. I'm pretty sure, that the good city builders can do nice things with this transparent ground. As you know I'm slightly disabled, when it comes to such things.  :-\

Yes, I'm happy about the canals, only on this map there's no need for any; small with a lot of water.  :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 22, 2018, 06:48:04 AM
but what if i some point... i allow some walls decorations with the textures ? maybe we can hide those backwalls ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 12:56:49 AM
It's just a pity, that the nice signs with the name of the store disappears, when you set the second floor.

even if i do this.... picture 1 ... if happends to put a 2nd floor with a balcony... you still wont able to see the sign.... picture 2

but i think with no balcony, it looks better and not clipped picture 3

(i also have to fix the roof so you dont see it through 2nd floor windows :P picture 2-3)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 08:46:02 AM
Sorry for causing you extra work. @RedKetchup ! But I guess, this is also the function of the beta.

I agree, it's no problem, if you have to use your brain a bit and choose a second floor without balcony, over a store. Another small thing about the stores. They are found in the tool bar "city service". I find, that it would be more logical and probably easier, to find together with all other markets andbarns under "storage".

This game was "nice and easy" until I took the second, very large "batch" of nomads. Now some years later, it's not that easy anymore. The nomads all have houses, they have clothes and tools and can all be fed (even if the foodgraph took a big leap downwards). But now I haven't got enough building material to build houses for the young adults of this settlement. The firewood is also quite critical. I have to import logs and the merchants are were very stingy, when it comes to bringing me any. I have sent all people out to cut trees but that's only possible another few years. So I'm about to build another trading port.

I have decided, that I will not spam the map with trading ports, just so many I need to buy logs for firewood for domestic use. I have no room for more than this one forest (and maybe it will have to go later, too). But my plans are to produce most of the other things, that are needed.

First picture 

As I've said; I like the "behaviour" of the crops. They grow different. This year the summer was very hot. The oats was the only crop that didn't stop grow; it's already harvested. The others have started to grow now again, when the temperature has dropped in late summer. Other years (like the last) are colder and the oats grew slower, than the other, so the harvest wasn't full. I find it perfect this way. :)

Second picture

I think I haven't shown where I put the lighthouse, I had to save material for so long. Here it is; to guide the ships, where the river makes a turn out in the lake. Perfect spot! :) It's almost a pity, that it's not possible to build a second one, just for fun on the other side of the lake.

All the houses you see on the other side of the river are nomad housing. It took a while to build them all.

You can see the inventory. There are all kind of food, but not as much as I like for 400 people. The production is alright but I will continue to increase the production. Some building material, like stone and lumber are also low.

Third picture

Here are the houses for the first nomads. Not so many and easy to take.

I've cut in the food and population graphs to show the effect of a large batch of nomads. Itīs very obvious; donīt take any nomads, if youīre not well prepared!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 08:52:14 AM
there wasnt any problem for the nomads to find they way in ?

and yeah i know they arent in the good toolbar ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 23, 2018, 10:12:17 AM
i can build another lighthouse but it won't be that 1. :P

is there any other testers besides NILLA at the moment or did they all jump ship???
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 11:02:04 AM
i can build another lighthouse but it won't be that 1. :P

is there any other testers besides NILLA at the moment or did they all jump ship???

maybe because we now need you testing. @brads3  ??
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 23, 2018, 11:33:21 AM
me need teach her someday.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 03:05:28 PM
there wasnt any problem for the nomads to find they way in ?


Yes and no! The very first nomads all died of starvation, before I had time to build two bridges across the small streams. After that there was no problem.........

or maybe there is......... hm.........

I just had a very weird crash. That's why I came to this page right now. And this question made me think about nomads. This is what happened:

As I said, I had a crash. I didn't do anything, that I think may cause any crash; only the same things as before. If I load the autosave; the crash comes to the same time. Luckily I had a save from about one year earlier. When I load this, there's no crash to this time; winter 36. I haven't played much longer, because I wanted to ask here, what it could be. This question about nomads gave me the thought, that it might be time for nomads. I have rejected nomads once after I took the last, but it was some time ago. What is, when something is built on the spot where the nomads appears? Can it cause a crash? I have built on that area.

I will go on with the save, that hadn't had any crash, yet. If it's nomads, there will soon be a crash. After that I will demolish some buildings and fields in that area to see what will happen.

@brads: I only know one trick to build more than one of those buildings supposed  to be there only once. That's setting all the foot prints at the same time, or at least before the first building is done. If you know other tricks, let me know.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 23, 2018, 03:10:57 PM
you win a cookie.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 03:20:41 PM
do you play with disaster on ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 03:45:32 PM
Yes. I play disasters on. Is there anything with disasters that may cuse the crash.

Iīve tested a bit; weird! I started the bug game again and demolished all fields close to the moutains; no crash but also no nomads. With some trial and error, I found out; when I demolish the red marked field, thereīs no bug. If I only demolish some other field; crash!

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
I made some more tests. I rebuilt tat spooky field one tile shorter- crash. (red marked). Then I rebuilt it one tile thinner but one tile longer (blue) - no crash. The "bad" tile is on the red marked spot. Do anyone have an explanation?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Turis on February 23, 2018, 04:09:35 PM
Whoa! Another case of ghosts. Should we call Scooby-Doo and friends or the ghostbusters? :D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Hawk on February 23, 2018, 04:29:22 PM
I made some more tests. I rebuilt tat spooky field one tile shorter- crash. (red marked). Then I rebuilt it one tile thinner but one tile longer (blue) - no crash. The "bad" tile is on the red marked spot. Do anyone have an explanation?

It's hard to tell from your screenshot which direction your looking from, but I wonder if this comment from a post you made a couple of years ago might have any affect on this.

-Better access to some fields. The farmers always start to work at the southwest corner of a field. If this corner is blocked or the path to get there complicated, there will be problems.

It's from this post.

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=751.msg12694#msg12694
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 04:47:20 PM
No, @Hawk I don't think that this has anything to do with the crash. The southwest corner is blue marked. There's no change in the access to it. The neighbor fields look the same.

But @Hawk, I am impressed! Quoting an old thread from me! And even finding it! Marvellous! I often know, that I wrote about something, but I seldom find it. Next time I'll ask you! ;)

As you can see; I've played another year; no more crash.

Forgot the picture with the marked corner (but now itīs good Night, Nilla belongs in bed)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Hawk on February 23, 2018, 04:50:42 PM
I didn't think so @Nilla but thought I'd throw it out, just in case.  ;D
Like I said, it's hard to tell from your screenshot what corner is the southwest corner. Even then, I didn't think that corner being blocked somehow would cause the game to crash. I was under the impression it would just cause the farmers problems when planting and harvesting, based on your post.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 23, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
glad someone is chasing gremilns besides me. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 23, 2018, 05:07:32 PM
Just one small difference, @brads3. You have 168 mods loaded. I have 1 (!). ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 05:16:12 PM
i had another guy save where there is a crash occuring. sometime i thought i narrowed it to something but after 3-4 attempts to narrow it more i was not getting the same thing :
a crash disappear 3-4 times and then bang, the 5th time was back.

at begining thought and narrowed it down to a gatherer hut ... then to crops.... then to the granary itself....

but if i asked if you have the disaster ON..... it is maybe a fire starting right at that moment ... on something...
the guy also had disaster ON. (maybe the thing is with the changes we sometime do to try to resolve... we happend to change the RNG of the game - and not get same thing happening)

and even if i used the debug tools to start fires....
i never have been 100% sure.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 23, 2018, 05:33:14 PM
not yet. 131 so far.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 23, 2018, 05:52:46 PM
if you have a crash.dump to give me... i can maybe sent those 2 to luke... he is the only one who has a tool for it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 24, 2018, 01:26:19 AM
I don't think, that it has anything to do with a fire or some other disaster: The crash always comes the same time, when I start that save, until I demolish that one field (or rather make it smaller). After demolishing, it's no more crash to that time. I have tried it several times, always the same.

In one of my last North games, I had a crash as a tornado destroyed a modded building. But when I restarted the game, of cause there was no tornado. I'm pretty sure it's the same with a fire. If you have a fire and go back to a save and restart the game, there might be a fire, but not at the same building. Besides, when I start that game after I've demolished the field, there's no fire (or other disaster) This bug is something else.

I don't know where to find a crash dump. The notification says a path under Banished, but I don't find any file "crash dump". I know I've been looking for that before, when I wanted to "clean" the computer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 24, 2018, 07:12:27 AM
I don't think, that it has anything to do with a fire or some other disaster: The crash always comes the same time, when I start that save, until I demolish that one field (or rather make it smaller). After demolishing, it's no more crash to that time. I have tried it several times, always the same.

In one of my last North games, I had a crash as a tornado destroyed a modded building. But when I restarted the game, of cause there was no tornado. I'm pretty sure it's the same with a fire. If you have a fire and go back to a save and restart the game, there might be a fire, but not at the same building. Besides, when I start that game after I've demolished the field, there's no fire (or other disaster) This bug is something else.

I don't know where to find a crash dump. The notification says a path under Banished, but I don't find any file "crash dump". I know I've been looking for that before, when I wanted to "clean" the computer.

if you are sure about the crop.... go ahead and continue. let me know if you find another crash :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: galensgranny on February 24, 2018, 08:31:07 AM
I don't know where to find a crash dump. The notification says a path under Banished, but I don't find any file "crash dump". I know I've been looking for that before, when I wanted to "clean" the computer.


I have an old crash.dmp file in my Banished folder, under the WinData folder.  So that must be where they get put.  It has a lot of strange symbols, but there are words interspersed that have file names.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 24, 2018, 10:38:20 AM
I will go on with this game tomorrow, @RedKetchup and play until the map is full. I hope with no more crash, or maybe we should hope for another crash, to be able to find out the reason. Anyway I'll let you know.

@galensgranny; there's nothing like that in my Windata file, I don't know the suffix of the crash dump file. It's not .dmp. If I search for *.dmp nothing is found.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 24, 2018, 10:58:55 AM
crash.dmp direct in Banished folder (not bin nor windata, direct at root of the game)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: galensgranny on February 24, 2018, 11:57:12 AM
Nilla, I did not mean the crash.dmp file was inside the Windata folder.  It was listed underneath it.  They are both contained inside the main Banished folder on my C drive- where programs are.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 26, 2018, 08:48:06 AM
I can't still find any .bmp files. My computer can't either when I ask him to search. (Note; it's a he; unrealable, incomprehensible, enigmatic, irresistible ;) )

But I also had no more crashes (maybe I should rebuild that field, to see what happens).

There's not much to tell about the game. It works fine, I'm in an easy part of the game. I have enough of everything, except sometimes when I screw up; say I have too much glass and close the glassworks temporarily and wonder after some time, why no houses are built. Out of glass! I've forgotten to turn it on again. Since I know, that such things may happen, I always have a good store of sand, so the production can start fast and tings soon work normal again.

I will try to make this settlement sustainable; possible to run a long time, if I want to. That's the reason, I've build less houses. I'm not sure, how many people this land can support; 1000 will be no problem. I have 900 already and still area to develop. Maybe around 1500 as maximum. We will see. 

First picture

I've looked at the balancing of the fodder- fertilizer-food chain. It's not so easy. There's one fodder farmer. When I had two stables (with 2 worker each) the amount of fodder grew, with 3 *2 it's not enough fodder. The same thing with green houses; with 2 greenhouses to each stable, the store of fertilizer grows. Now with totally 8 greenhouses they don't get enough fertilizer.

I will now take one worker away and close one or two greenhouses and see how it works. In any case; the amount of food, you can get from this spot of land using fodder is now getting closer to fields, when they no longer "steal" the fodder to heat homes.

Again; request to you @RedKetchup ; take the fertilizer away from normal barns. It seems like the Bannis like to spread fertilizer to every possible barn; looks like they find, that a barn without fertilizer is no good barn!  :-\

Second picture

I find, the market looks better with the roads like this, than if you put stones on every possible tile.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 26, 2018, 08:55:51 AM

Again; request to you @RedKetchup ; take the fertilizer away from normal barns. It seems like the Bannis like to spread fertilizer to every possible barn; looks like they find, that a barn without fertilizer is no good barn!  :-\

Second picture

I find, the market looks better with the roads like this, than if you put stones on every possible tile.

ok gonna check what i can do.
i agree for the market :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 27, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
Thank you @RedKetchup !

This map is slowly getting full. I decided to make another fodder farmer. Maybe not the most efficient way to use limited space, but I like it. And this is no attempt to break any records. I just want to get into the "end of the game", if there is any. We can see by the very interesting experiments from @smurphys7, that the end is far away, no matter what. ;)

I have one more request. It's a general request to all modder not only to you @RedKetchup. It's something from the vanilla game, that I want to get rid of in the mods. It's the number of workers, set in a building from the start. I would like it to always be one and that you in all buildings have to increase the number manually.

I'll explain what I mean. Let's take a mine as example. If you build a mine the default number of miners is set to 10. You can increase it to 20 if you want to. When you build your first mine, the number doesn't matter. You have no miners and probably not enough laborers to send 10 to the mine. Say we can afford 4 miners. After a while you want a second mine. If you haven't changed the number in your first mine, half of your miners will disappear from the first mine and start to mine for iron ore in the second mine as soon as this is built. Most of the time you don't want it that way.

If the starting number of workers was 1 in every building, also in those where you can use 20 or more, this would never happen. The second mine wouldn't start to work until you've set the right product and the number of miners you want there and have assigned them. The first group stays where it is. It gives you a much better control.

In this game it's especially annoying by the markets. It's so different how many vendors you use. Often I start a new area by building a market. In such a case, no one lives here and you only need one vendor here to slowly fill the market in the time houses are built. On big markets with a lot of houses I might have 15. I don't want some of them to sneak away to a new built market without my allowance! ;)

The same with bakeries and dryers, you can use 2 bakers (!) in each. That's OK, but I want the default number to be one, but possible to increase. What happens when you build a new bakery? One baker from another site moves there and start to produce bread. I don't want bread, I want cake. The same the dryer; one baker moves there and start to search the whole settlement for beef, but I have a lot of fish, I wan to dry. With 1 baker default, this would never happen. When the building is done, you set the right product and if you want to increase the number, you'll do it at the same time.

I would prefere vanilla fisher, gatherer, forester......... to have only 1 worker from the start, too and that you always have to increase the number manually.

Am I the only one who want it this way?

Picture

I only made one screenshot yesterday. I wanted to ask about the bath house. It's a very nice building. The Bannis love it. You can see the many people. But what is its purpose? They don't seem to be happier by it.

The dentist and barber seem to work like a hospital. That's fine. But the bath house use a worker, so I can't imagine that it's a hospital.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 27, 2018, 07:40:13 AM
i actually agree with you.i would add farmers to your list too. on a 10x10 field the vanilla way adds 2 workers per crop field. RED's game does add 2 to orchards.not only does this way pull a worker as NILLA explained ,it also screws up the count.
        we are experienced players and are used to it more. a new player will place many workplaces,mines,or fields at a time. since the game pulls workers to the new field or work spot,something clear across the map stops working. if it is a field, this means you are now losing food.since generally by the time the new field is cleared it is too late to plant. if those new fields are set to 2 ,that is 2 fields each that are shut down.you are losing a ton of food. if the player does catch 1 field not working,then he tries to fix it.but it is easy to place 3 fields and not remember how many. under harsh settings without using the pause button,NILLA would have frozen crops in the time it takes to locate and reset all the fields.
         banished isn't a game that is played in 1 day.a map is played over days or weeeks.hard to remember what we did yesterday let alone last week.i set 2 workers to 1 market on purpose but which market and why?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 27, 2018, 07:55:00 AM
nice screenshot :) your town is starting to be well occupied and providing a nice and a very good life to its citizens :)

so at your request, i ve gone everywhere i did put 1 worker by default.
the only place i cannot go without breaking everything is the crops/orchards. they not use a "worker per building" syntax but a "worker by tiles" format which can really screw the production which will make any extra workers go idle in wait the first ones go idle or make errants at their time.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2018, 03:57:50 AM
Thanks for the 1 worker. :) It looks like I wasn't alone by this, when even @brads3 agree! ;) It would have been good, if the fields could have 1 as well but you are right, not worth any risks to get idling farmer in harvest times. Anyhow fields are not so necessary to change. No farmer starts to work on a field directly after it's cleared. You have to choose the crop first and you can set the "right" number of farmers at that time.

But @RedKetchup you didn't answer my question about the bath house. Is it only another idling spot? I like the building, so it would be nice to have a use for it. Maybe you could give it a hospital function as well. It wouldn't be all too weird. A hospital is only used to epidemic times and what would a community do, if there's an epidemic? If the hospitals were full, I guess it would use every possible public building to tend to the sick, also a bath house. The bad thing of cause, would again be idling at the hospital. It is nice to see all the people go to the bath house. So maybe a herbalist who could treat people ,would be better. Or maybe it has a use, that I haven't understood.

I finished this game yesterday evening. Could I support a population of 1500 people on this small spot in a sustainable way? The answer NO/YES! Pick what you want. I only made it with an ugly trick.

It's not enough food there, to support the population in a regular way. I can buy a little, by selling meat and cake but I haven't built this settlement for heavy trading, so there isn't much of these more valuable products and I don't want to rebuild for a "firewood economy". Instead I used another trick. I now produce about the same amount food as they consume and the population is getting down. So, yes that way this is a sustainable settlement.

Look at the last picture and see if you find my trick! ;) Maybe @RedKetchup you could do something to take away this possibility? Or maybe it's good to have a little something for emergency cases.  :-\

First picture

The nice looking candlemaker. Not very profitable, so it will only produce a short time, to make enough candles to upgrade my mines.

Second picture

An overview. I'm sorry! This settlement is built on efficiency, not to look nice.  :-\

Third picture

If we look closer, I still find it pleasant to look at. Just because these buildings are very nice! :)

The map is now full. If you look in the background, behind the sheep pasture, you can see, that I still can find a few unused spots to build some houses.

Fourth picture.

It's a busy town. A long bridge to connect the two sides of the lake makes sense. The population still grows and the food graph doesn't look very promising.  :(

Fifth picture

Problem solved. The population has started to decrease. If you look close, you might find my trick!  :-[ :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2018, 06:05:28 AM
bah i think i maybe have a different opinion about all this.

i think it is really a good settlement. you succeed to sustain so many people with so many laborer ? half of your population doesnt have a job !!! imagine if you can double the amount of farmers ! you have 560 laborers ! you can spare another 190 to farmer and you would still have 370 laborers that is still very huge. i think you are producing food way too easy.
although, it could be even better than that, i see no dairyman, and no butcher. you could double the amount of meat. while you are producing the bakery chain, why you dont do it with the dairy chain too ? why that ? is the dairy chain defect or broken ?

The limit of your map is a very big huge lake in the center. it takes out 50% of your land. that's what hurt you and limiting your food capacity and by this, your town capacity. this population would need to get to 2020 and get some future technology to build settlement like at Dubai lol. i know, i know some mods have a medieval version of this ^^ all the docks technology ^^

for the bath house, i know thats a big huge building. it is mainly for RPG lol although it has a real effect. it has the ability to give back health to citizen the exact same way as an herbalist does. the citizens go to the market, pick up an herb, and go to the BathHouse with their herb and take a medicinal bath and get 1/2 heart back. it has also the happiness:health which we know, doesnt have any effect LOL
about disease, it doesnt act as an hospital, you have plently of other tools for that: barbers, clinics, dentists, hospitals....


thanks for reminding me to check about the candle technology numbers....
( EDIT: i see it takes 30 beeswax at 1 value each(30) to make 3-4 candle at 8 value(32). i agree. so now it will take 16 beeswax(16) to make 3-4 candles(32) so it will get the usual double value in next patch. )



about your trick : bah i look alot and didnt found anything, i have no idea what is your trick. :S

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Hawk on February 28, 2018, 06:30:09 AM
It's not enough food there, to support the population in a regular way. I can buy a little, by selling meat and cake but I haven't built this settlement for heavy trading, so there isn't much of these more valuable products and I don't want to rebuild for a "firewood economy". Instead I used another trick. I now produce about the same amount food as they consume and the population is getting down. So, yes that way this is a sustainable settlement.

@Nilla - The jewelry industry can be great to use at traders. You just have to find enough gold and silver ore around the map.
You can also, occasionally buy some gems, gold ore and silver ore at the trader, then make your jewelry from that. It's still profitable but not as much as finding all the gold and silver ore on the map.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2018, 06:57:48 AM
You are right. It's easy to produce a lot of food. That's the reason, I need a little extra something to make a game interesting, like this limited space for a larger population. When you've learned the "tricks", vanilla Banished isn't very hard and normal mods makes it even easier. You talk about the chains yourself. You are right; there are some I haven't used.

Why?

The diary is big. On this map it's all about using the space as good as possible. I also want to mainly support my settlement with things they produce here, not by trade and the diary doesn't make more food, just increases the trade value (if I remember it right).

I have been thinking about a butcher but I don't have very much meat, and it's spread all over the map, so I guess it wouldn't be very efficient. So I decided to put it directly into the trading ports. Maybe it would have payed off a little with a butcher. At the beginning I used to dry some venison but later changed to fish.

That's a good use for the bath house. Wouldn't it be better, if it occupied a herbalist than a worker? I think then we would all understand its use. By the way I'm happy for this. It's much nicer to build a bath house, than a normal herbalist in a town area.

With these numbers you can chose to produce beeswax and candles for export, if you need. I find it good (even if it's maybe not quite realistic) that you can choose between beeswax and honey in the apiary, instead of having both randomly, like CC has (if I remember it right). In my last game I produced everything myself and had more export goods than I could need. In this game I bought logs and stones all the time. For this I more or less, only sold perfume. It was a perfect amount of perfume for this, with one and later after I built the second fodder farmer two sites producing perfume. It would have been more annoying, than good to have a lot of beeswax/candles as well.

And yes @Hawk I did produce and sell a few gold and silver bars but that's really a minor business, not much to get on this small map. In my first game I also had this "random mine" where occasionally some gold, silver and gems were found. I also produced jewelery. It was fun, some profit but not a relable source to support a larger settlement.

You haven't looked carefully, if you don't see, what I did to increase the amount of "food". ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2018, 07:22:23 AM
bah i saw alot of water wells. with non nutricient water, people get less good health. but i dont think with all the good food you still have around, it had a huge impact. you are still at 4.5/5 and you have very very few herbs 60-80 per year. water is still essential in life :)

if you would have only water all day, all year long, you would see health going down quickly and happiness too (i think not having min x amount of diff nutriments has an impact) then you would have more random deaths and more diseases.

i know i didnt added the medieval creamery yet, i promise i ll make an effort today to include it for next patch :)
and i will also take a look at the numbers.


to make everything alot harder (about food, i would need to go back and lower all food incomes, maybe a 5% ? 10% ?)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 28, 2018, 07:39:03 AM
did you add the dairy stable too?if you are within a day or 2,i will hold my map test. as long as you don't shoot me for it. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2018, 08:17:37 AM
did you add the dairy stable too?if you are within a day or 2,i will hold my map test. as long as you don't shoot me for it. ;D

i was presently checking all food numbers and trying to decide if i want to do some.... cuts :)

i was wondering to make those changes....
first column is the real numbers, the 2nd column of numbers would be the changes

Code: [Select]
crops     : 20-28 => 18-24
orchards  : 50-65 => 46-58
wild      : 18-24 => 16-20
honey     : 24-32 => 20-26
egg       : 06-06 => 04-06
fish      : 05-07 => 06-08
milk      : 16-16 => 12-16

meats:

bear         : 120-180 => 080-120
beef         : 080-100 => 080-100 (x2 cattle)
bison        : 160-200 => 140-180
mutton       : 160-200 => 100-140
swine(pig)   : 160-200 => 120-150
venison      : 160-200 => 130-160
boar         : 080-120 => 080-130
chicken      : 004-006 => 006-010
duck         : 010-020 => 030-040
hare         : 010-020 => 040-050
partridge    : 010-020 => 020-030
pheasant     : 010-020 => 025-060
goose        : 040-080 => 050-080
(and put back the number of kills to hunter as vanilla was)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2018, 10:37:48 AM
I don't know about the lower food production values. It's fine by me. But I'm not so sure, that everyone would like it. I like the surviving/economy aspects of Banished. But we can't forget that it's also a city builder game. And your mod @RedKetchup surly is "candy"  for a city builder. And if you want to focus on designing a pleasant looking village, I guess you are happy , if the support of the people goes smooth. But this is my guess and I think you should ask everyone a bit more directly.

Maybe the better way to go, is to make an add-on, where the demand of food is increased. @Tom Sawyer has his ironman and I have seen mods like that on the BL site as well. You could make different levels; maybe something like 20% more, 50% more and 100% more. That would probably suit everyone. (ironman has 100%, thatīs very hard but possible, if you micromanage a lot)

Back to my water:

As you can see on that last picture, I put a water well on every empty spot. That solved the upcoming food crisis. I don't know if this possibility is good or bad. I would consider to make water inedible. One of the few "food" I would find reasonable. But on the other hand, it was handy to have this opportunity in this game.

But I would make flour eatable. I know, some people like it to be inedible, but I find that very strange, Why could the Bannis cook their food at home but not bake their bread? Why can they use the ungrinded wheat and not the wheat flour? Why would they starve, when the barn is full of flour? It's certainly not hard to make enough flour to have enough for the bakeries. I had to take away some miller, because there was too much flour to support about 2 bakeries for each mill.

Iīll just started a small experimental game; no food , just water. Iīll tell you about it later.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2018, 10:44:02 AM

Iīll just started a small experimental game; no food , just water. Iīll tell you about it later.

haha
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Turis on February 28, 2018, 11:01:07 AM
@Nilla is right. The bannies should be able to make their own pancakes. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2018, 12:01:09 PM
Just a couple of screenshots from the food less settlement Tyron. There is actually one hunter. I wanted to give them some clothing, but I am cruel enough to put all venison into the trading port!  :P It also was too hard at the beginning. A well needs lumber and also a lot of stones, so I used that instand gathering tool before I could build any wells. But that was once. Now there's only water....... and the Bannis are all happy, making their business as usual.



Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2018, 12:04:08 PM
haha so they are all happy from living from love and fresh water :)
nice

(and no happiness impact from no nutrition)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Turis on February 28, 2018, 12:29:04 PM
We'd just be careful not a single rat piss on the water. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: brads3 on February 28, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
no starvation? how many disease outbreaks?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2018, 01:45:19 PM
no starvation? how many disease outbreaks?
None so far, I just played another couple of years and have no doctor yet. I plan to build one soon however.

(and no happiness impact from no nutrition)
Nope!

As long as you don't actually have an herbalist, the production loss is also small. Now and then, they take a brief brake "visiting the (nonexisting) herbalist". That's all. They don't go anywhere.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 05, 2018, 03:40:35 AM
I didn't play that crazy water game for long. It was just a test to prove, that Bannis can do without food, if they have water. It's no big difference in gameplay, if they are 100% healthy or 0%. That's a pity, but that's how Banished works. You can see health and happiness, but they don't have any big importance. In any case, it's not easier to give them only water. In fact the start was much harder. You need a lot more building materials to build wells. One good located gatherer and fisher would give the same amount of much better balanced food, than 8 wells, with far less material.

On to the next crazy game. Now testing the RKEC-beta10.

If you remember, I made a suggestion to make an "add on" where the people need more food. @Tom Sawyer has made one with 100% more food and clothes. I've tried it in a North game but never in one with vanilla gameplay. I will now!  :-\ I don't know if it's a good or bad idea. It will turn out. Anyway it will be a challenge.

I've decided to make a medium start. It will be hard to support the population without early farming. I had to look at a few maps before I found one suitable; I didn't want to start on an island, neither did I want peanuts, strawberries and chestnuts to start with. The fourth map is good enough; a decent starting position, good starting seeds; potatoes, sorghum and cranberries, it even has a lake, I can connect to the river with a canal, if I can survive long enough.

First picture

This is from my water settlement. I did play a few more years. You can see, it's prosperous.........

Second picture

......but not very healthy. A lot of healthy children were born, but all adults have 0 harts.

Third picture

My new settlement. It was late, as I downloaded the latest version of RKEC, so I didn't get far. I also forgot, that @Tom Sawyerīs "Ironman" includes a real time aging mod. So I will also have to struggle with a slow population growth. Maybe it's not so bad after all, if it's slow at the beginning, where I have to micromanage a lot.



Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: oldgraywolf on March 05, 2018, 06:47:09 AM
Hi Nilla, just started reading this blog after enjoying your North adventure. I'm curious if you always use the same crop formation. For instance, I see alot of people talking up the 15X15 plot but see you're using the 15X8 that I use(from the table on that other site). Do you find this one is better or is it just a personal choice? I assume you use this with only one farmer.
Thanks and again another informative and helpful blog. You should do a let's play on youtube.  :D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 05, 2018, 07:13:40 AM
First to Youtube. No, you'll never see any video from me. I don't like to look at gaming videos myself. (I can confess, that I watched a few before I bought this game, but they were rather annoying ;) )

I'll rather write. Or rather try. It's very good practice for me. I'm pretty sure, that these blogs make me more fluent in English, not necessarily better, but English comes much easier and that's my ambition.

Now to fields. Yes I build fields from about half the maximum size. If the space is free, I use to build 15*7 or 15*8. I use 1 farmer at the beginning. Later, when I have more laborers the default 2. You don't necessarily need 2, but it's safer, when the first farmer is somewhere, like visiting the herbalist or at some very important idling spot, instead of working his field. If the space doesn't allow 15*7, I build fields of about that size  (100-120 tiles) in any shape.

My experience is, that if you have 2 farmers, the harvest is better, if you let them work on one smaller field each, than both on the same large field.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: oldgraywolf on March 05, 2018, 07:44:34 AM
Ok, no youtube.  :'(
As for the fields, I thought that was the idea. I haven't used 2 on a single field, but it's worth a try.
Your English is fine, keep up the good work. You keep blogging and we'll both keep learning. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 05, 2018, 09:34:21 AM
i personally prefer to put 15x8 crop but they always ask 3 farmer each which i always lower to 2 max and i put 2 on those. but the default it always ask for 3 worker each.
so i am surprised you say they ask 2 and you put only 1 at begining.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 05, 2018, 09:37:20 AM
Youīre right @RedKetchup, the 15*8 ask for 3 farmers, the 15*7 for 2. But both work with a single farmer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 05, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
btw, you could also take the Hard Alternate starting condition :) it starts with 1 seed. :)
i did it because i hate to not use crops so i hate hard for that. but with it, i would like to start hard with 1 seed :)


so hows about the small markets changes ? are they ok ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 05, 2018, 10:13:00 AM
I'm confused! (Not really, but, don't tell that to @Nilla and @RedKetchup )

So how many farmers do I actually need for a 12*8 cropfield? (Let them answer it, though, obviously, I already know is 1)
Does it make a difference if the field is 12*8 or 8*12? (Now I'm poorly trying to confuse them)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 05, 2018, 10:21:54 AM
I'm confused! (Not really, but, don't tell that to @Nilla and @RedKetchup )

So how many farmers do I actually need for a 12*8 cropfield? (Let them answer it, though, obviously, I already know is 1)
Does it make a difference if the field is 12*8 or 8*12? (Now I'm poorly trying to confuse them)

for sure there is no difference between 12*8 versus 8*12 ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 05, 2018, 10:42:04 AM
Thank you, @RedKetchup !
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 06, 2018, 05:04:49 AM
Me too, I mean confused. Sorry, if I'm stupid. What are all these small signs? Something not decent enough for old ladies with bad eyes like me, to read?  :-\  If it is, I don't want to know!  ;)

If I oversee these signs and take your question serious, @Turis. There are theories that it do matter if it's 15*8 or 8*15 but personally, I haven't seen any difference. And I don't remember which is supposed to be better. If there is a difference, it's not huge, and other things like distance to barns and homes are more important. 1 farmer is enough for a field with 120 tiles or less, but as I said in my answer to @oldgraywolf, it's safer with 2, if this one farmer decides to do something else, instead of farming.

@RedKetchup, I can't say anything to the small markets yet, this game is still young. I've just built my first two; one food market and as far as I understand, that one is not changed and the one for raw material. Both work fine.

This is an interesting and challenging game. I played all evening. :) A lot of micromanagement, so I don't even notice the slow real time.

First picture.

I had a strategy from the start. Trying to build a large stock of food at the beginning. More or less only produce food. Everything else is done in the free time of the farmers: a lot of micromanagement: Let them work the fields in spring, as soon as it's done, some building project, firewood, logs, tools......... when the crops reach 70%, back to farming. Harvest starts manually at 90-95% growth, depending on time of the year and crop (the slow growing cranberries often less) when the harvest of one field is done, that farmer might help out on another field/orchard to get everything harvested. After that; other work until late winter.

My idea was, that when there's once a store of food, the people who get adult could have other, more steady professions and this extreme micromanagement wouldn't be needed anymore.

You can see on the food graph, that this early strategy was successful.

Second picture

... but unfortunately it didn't completely work, the way I planned.....

Somehow, I still need to micromanage a lot. 2* as much food as vanilla is cruel. The real time also gives you a lot of unproductive children to support. I also (re)discovered, that the NMT houses are for a family of 6. This doesn't make it easier!  :-\ :)

I thought a bit about building other smaller houses. But playing a game with the NMT buildings and leave out the jewel in the crown? NO! There will be NMT houses! The nicest ones! White with orange brick roofs! I'll rather micromanage 100 farmers than leave them out!

Third picture

@brads3, it seems like the striking behaviour from you settlement has spread to this!  >:(

Look at the fields. It's a good year. The harvest could be started early. Everyone is busy, except Darline, who has to harvest the big potato field next to the cranberries. After one row of potatoes, she went to the cemetery to idle. She stayed there until it was supper time, as she went home to eat, after that; back to the cemetery to idle. No potatoes! After the other farmers had helped to get the potatoes in the store, she became a tailor. That didn't suit her either; except a brief brake to get home and eat, she stayed at the cemetery! ???

I've seen something similar in one of my North games; one young charcoaler refused to work. I thought it was some teenage rebellion. Here it seems to be a mid life crises. If you look at the age of this woman, she must have been one of the original settlers. Maybe now, when she's going towards 40, she realizes, that life hasn't turned out the way she thought, as she arrived to this spot; young with a lot of dreams. Maybe the husband is mean, maybe she's got a crush on one of the handsome merchants, that visit the settlement from time to time. I guess we'll never discover the reason. We only know; she refuses to work.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 06, 2018, 06:25:33 AM
@Nilla Who said anything about you being stupid? Certainly, not me. I know how smart you are by how detailed you make your reviews so I expected you read the small print which were silly anyway and a distraction from my questions.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 06, 2018, 06:41:39 AM
do you think citizens can have some programmed numbers like your lazy Dorine which will be more lazy than others ?
i ask the the question because i already got this problem before.... and pretty sure it was the exact same name !!!!!!!  ???
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 06, 2018, 07:21:16 AM
i agree with RED. there is something to the coding to cause some mysteries or odd behavior now and then.just like all vendors don't act the same from different markets.i also think TOM knows more than he tells us.
    my loitering bannies i do think is a glitch or a change TOM made.they idle at the farmer market even after i cleared a cemetary. had to use the priority tool to motivate the bannies.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 06, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
Darline... Dorine?!?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 07, 2018, 03:22:31 AM
Sorry guys, I made two mistakes in my last post:

First; the name of this striking woman is Dorrine nothing else. I have no idea, if this behaviour is coded and how common it is. As I said; in all my games, it's the second time, I see it. I can't imagine, that it has been there from the beginning of Banished. I'm sure people would have noticed this earlier. Anyhow, she has left this apathy and is again a useful member of this society. Why? No idea, but she got another baby. I guess we shouldn't ask further about the father.  :P

The second mistake; The NMT houses aren't for a family of 6. I know, that one couple split and I guess, that a fourth child was born in that time. As I looked into one of the first NMT houses and saw this big family, I thought that they could get a fourth child, when they lived there, but they can't. In this game I'm glad. There's enough children to support with families of 5.

I play quite a few years yesterday. I still need to micromanage, but less than earlier. Mostly I let the game run 5X, it's quite comfortable this way. I rarely change professions anymore but
- a farmer of the fields also have to harvest the slow growing cranberries, when his field is done,
- a woodcutter use to chop firewood, but if there's plenty in the store, he might go to the lumbermill next door and work for a short time,
- a blacksmith changes between the foundry and the blacksmiths shop,
- one vendor switches between several small markets
- one person works in the brick/glass area, most of the time getting clay but sometimes also sand (which is much faster done) or making glass, bricks or roof tiles
- a couple of miners switches between the different mines and produce what's needed at the time
- if we're out of water, the perfumemaking worker switch to the close well
- and so on

Still a lot to do but far less as when they all changed professions.

First picture

This is hardly a bug, that need to be fixed. It will seldom need to happen. It was just my stupid mistake, but I wanted to show this anyway.

Here's a building site; a small ground floor NMT house, but you can see, that the menu shows no active building site (red circle). It's not stopped, so what happened? To this time I was replacing the wood houses with NMT houses; I build a new house, shortly before it's finish, I demolish the old house and the briefly homeless will soon move into their new home. This time I was in some stress by micromanage the farming, so I demolished the wrong house; the building site. When you've once demolished it, you can't undo it and continue with the construction. You must really demolish it and start over.

Second picture

Overview, you can see that the stores are well filled.

Third picture

A detail of the busy settlement. The signs of the shops look good, if you don't forget to chose a second floor without balcony. This type are my favourites; the white houses with the orange brick roofs.

You asked about the shops, @RedKetchup. This settlement is still small, so I've only used grocery, raw materials and textiles. The other will be useful in new areas, when the settlement grows but no need yet.

Grocery and raw material work exactly as I want them to. The textile store however never fills to more than 50%, often it's only wool. I guess, that the other 50% are reserved for "fabrics" that I don't have. I don't know how common it is to have any fabrics. Of cause, if you want a vegan town, you'll have to grow some textile plants and if you use one of Necoraīs mods as well, you'll need to store the flax collected in the woods, but I guess that in most games, it will be mainly wool and leather. Maybe the space for these textiles could be increased to 75%?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 07, 2018, 03:33:09 AM
I know, that two pictures are missing but there were a problem by uploading. Iīll try it again later.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 07, 2018, 03:41:06 AM
She was idled because of her pregnancy. It makes sense.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 07, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
you have food for 407 people but you have 68 citizens. i think all this imbalance comes from the fact you are using only 1 farmer per crop, you shouldnt have so many crops with that number of farmers. i wish there is a way to "penalize" that but isnt a way. it makes everything hard to balance numbers because it is not the normalization. (or should we ask all the whole world of banish gaming to do this ? and balance the numbers for this?)


about the builders/demolishing bug.... i dont see what i can do. i think maybe the bug comes from the extended 6-materials new feature. if you save and reload, it doesnt fix itself ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 07, 2018, 10:45:15 AM
You are right. I've always said; farming is overpowered. I now have 6 farmers who move around. In good years they produce 6000 food, in a about a half year. If people complain about too powerful woodchopper and brewer, they should also complain about the farmer, they are not much "better" or rather as good as. ;)

I don't think you would be very popular, if you changed the basic farming, @RedKetchup.

I also know, that I don't need all this food. I'm pushing it very far, to see what's possible. I promise, I will calm down! ;)

And this building bug isn't important to fix. I can't imagine, that it will happen often; that you demolish a building site and then change your mind. It was a mistake and if you make mistakes, it's not bad if you have to pay. And I don't know, if it would have help to save and reload. This happened quite a while ago and I don't have a proper safe. I just started the game. Luckily one house was about to be built, but demolishing undo, save, reload don't change anything.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 07, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
i have absolutely no idea of what i can do to fix that, it is not something we can add "lines" in the mod.... thats the game that handle this.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 07, 2018, 12:18:49 PM
wait what? how big are your fields,NILLA. 10x10 on medium settings i can get 500 each average.sometimes 700 but not 1000? and you are on harsh settings.
     i think TOM did make some changes. rye takes longer to grow so you lose some of the crop. fields are closer to 350.my barley and turnips is close to 500.the cows need more pasture space so therefore won't produce as much.at least i should say, i assume the game is using TOM"s coding to the crops.none is a complaint just observations.

     i can understand RED's idea of realistically needing 2 workers per field. i could argue though that an orchard doesn't need a worker all year long.you only need to harvest the fruiit and maybe do some pruning.less you are chasing birds and squirrels. that is 11 mths worth of time to balance witth the crop farmers.plus the young children can help out.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 07, 2018, 03:08:43 PM
I'll show you my output the two last years. 6 farmer were used. This year was very good. Last year had some frost in spring. The fields are all different, the bigest 10*12, the smallest 5*15, the orchards 9*13 or 7*13.

You can get this much food with only 6 farmers but you have to micromanage. The crops grow much faster than than the cranberries. I start the harvest manually, mostly in summer-late summer by 90-95 %. The harvest is mostly done in late summer-early autumn. As soon as a field is done, the farmer goes to the orchard to harvest cranberries. Normally they are at 70-80 % in early autumn. I always start the harvest manually when the farmer has arrived, even if it's only 60% or so. This year it was about 80%.

And I don't play harsh this time. I play fair but the people need the double amount of food.

(I have a picture for you as well @RedKetchup but I think it's better off on your developing site)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 07, 2018, 03:56:46 PM
cranberries are orchards, and it was part of my boost to orchards since they tend to be forgotten. the main change is 1 tree/bush every 2 tiles left/right and every 2 tiles up/down (vanilla got every 3 tiles up/down) they kinda equal the "dense orchards of CC"
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 08, 2018, 06:08:33 AM
Just a small report from my game. I already showed a picture of the harvest this and last year. Here is one of the fields. You can see; different size. (Second picture)

@brads3 you mustn't forget one thing, when you compare your farmers with mine. Here they are all educated. I have taken a few nomads but they live in another corner and are busy catching fish and breeding sheep. It's unlikely that they mix up with the farming. You use to take a lot of nomads, of case you see that. Unless your new game has the Nordic settings; where farmers and some other "simple professions" have no uneducated penalty.

I have too much protein. It was a mistake to build a second sheep pasture. There's too much wool as well. I have built another trading port, more to store goods than to buy things. I will also build another tailor and let one produce warm coats for my population and one wool coats, to get rid of some wool.

As I said in that other thread, I had another "idler". This time it was the worker Lynwoodie. He was supposed to make bricks, but no single brick was produced. He just walked around from the cemetery to the trading port, to the market and sometimes home to eat in between. I changed a bit professions and after a while he wanted to work again. I don't know, if the change of professions had any influence or if he had started to work anyway. If I see this behaviour once more, I will make a save and some experimenting.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 08, 2018, 06:14:06 AM
@Nilla You're a magnet for the depressed, nostalgic people including me.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 08, 2018, 08:22:54 AM
 :'(
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 08, 2018, 08:29:23 AM
you know you can put a fireworker :) it is a good way to keep 1 laborer permanently.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 08, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
I know about the fireworker, I like the fire, so I will put one there as soon as Iīm sure that I will never get out of laborers (we donīt want the teacher die of old age with no free laborers to replace him, do we?)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 08, 2018, 08:40:12 AM
I know about the fireworker, I like the fire, so I will put one there as soon as Iīm sure that I will never get out of laborers (we donīt want the teacher die of old age with no free laborers to replace him, do we?)

it will act exactly like a laborer but thats the only thing, it will never switch job to teacher ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 08, 2018, 10:56:17 AM
:'(
Are you taking me seriously? Come on! You are a shield-maiden. I want you to kick my butt. :P
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 08, 2018, 01:31:18 PM

Are you taking me seriously? Come on! You are a shield-maiden. I want you to kick my butt. :P

yeah she is our Lagertha-Nilla :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 09, 2018, 06:30:52 AM
You got me totally wrong! I'm a peaceful old lady. If I don't play Banished, I sit in front of the fireplace knitting. Maybe in my youth, I might have hit some impertinent guy in the head with a book, or thrown a box of yogurt on my husband. These are the sharpest weapons, I've ever used. But since then, I've calmed down. ;)

I'll show you some pictures from my game

First picture

Here's the latest extension of my settlement. If you look at the graph, it looks quite dramatic. Three things happened at the same time. The first thing is nothing to worry about; I stocked the trading ports with mutton, I think totally 7000. Second I took a large group of hungry nomads. Third there was a really bad harvest, cold in spring and autumn, hot in summer. So, once again, these seemingly ridiculous stores of food isn't that ridiculous after all! Just a way to manage such situations without stress.

@RedKetchup, it looks like you have changed the outputs in the fodder, fertilizer chain. It's still not bad, but now it's less than normal farming, in every aspect. It used to be about the same for each worker, but less good using the area. The fodder farmer also collect too little flowers to keep the perfume maker going. I don't know, what will happen, if I put a flower collector in the same area, I will try it later. I will also check the chain a bit more; how many stables for each meadow, how many green houses on for each stable. There are some uneducated in this area, who might mess things up a bit, so it will take some time.

I don't know, if I like or dislike these changes. As long as farming is as easy and profitable as it is, I think it's better to use the old values, to give food producing on fields and in greenhouses  about the same productivity. But of cause both are too high. But only changing the greenhouses, make them less attractive.  After all, it's the same products. There's also another difficulty when it comes to growing food in greenhouses, see picture 3.

Second picture

I thought the cranberries were immortal but I was wrong. It took long, but now they need to be replanted. It's good this way. These 8 years or what it is by a vanilla tree, are quite ridiculous, immortal as well.

Third picture


Now fertilizer are stored on stockpiles; way better than together with food in barns. There's only one problem. The Bannis still love to carry the fertilizer around on the map. I only have specialized stockpiles. Materials; the category that fertilizer belongs to, are produced on two places, unfortunately very far away from eachother. It's clay and sand, red marked on the map and fertilizer, blue marked. But look at the content of the stockpiles! More fertilizer on the wrong stockpile! And of cause, some of the space on the "dung pile" is occupied by sand and clay!

Of cause, this makes it hard to use greenhouses. Normally you would locate stables and greenhouses together but the fertilizer will spread to all unspecialized stockpiles and all material piles. So you must plan carefully and maybe also have an overproduction of fertilizer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 09, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
bah you said you were getting extra this or extra that in the storages... i just added +1 work unit somewhere (i think was stables) to make it more equal ^^
i can maybe took out -1 work unit from greenhouse to make them better and see how it goes from there.

about the fodder farmer, thats not their job to collect flowers, it is florist's job; you need to put one.

we cant make a specialized stockpile for the dung unless i use 1 of the 2 last flag reserved.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 12, 2018, 09:36:28 AM
As I said, I will go on and test the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain and see how it works more long term, also with the distribution of fodder and fertilizer. As I've said; it's not easy, but it doesn't have to. In fact, I like, that you have to think, when you want to use this.

I haven't played much this weekend, something called "life" has interfered; house full of children. But I did play a few years yesterday evening.

I've built a store for building materials. Seems to work fine except; I've never seen any roof tiles in it. I have more bricks than roof tiles. (plan to build some canals in the sand bricks design) But there isn't that much glass either and there's glass in the store. I will continue to keep an eye on this.

Another small problem is also the fodder in this store. I want my horses to have it! I haven't seen any of your buildings @RedKetchup, that need thatch to construct. But I guess, it has to be "labled" building material, to be compatible with some other mods like Nat Div. I guess we have to live with it in this store. Maybe I can build one close to the stables instead of a stockpile. I don't think it will need a vendor. The laborers will put the fodder in the store, if there's no stockpile and the other vendors will not steal it. Could work.

We now produce a little bit less food than we consume. I will build more fields but I also plan to buy some constantly. I'm not so sure yet what I want to export. It will not be firewood, that's too boring. I've started to buy apples to produce pie for export for a start. I also sell some cheese, perfume and wool coats. The mutton I put in the ports are still there, but I haven't sold any of it.

To cheese; you've changed some numbers @RedKetchup to make it more interesting to consume in the settlement. I like that, but maybe this should be combined with a lower trade price. Cheese is now very profitable to sell.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 12, 2018, 10:28:41 AM
i can maybe take -1 value to cheese :P if you think it is really too high.

building material is a very large group. lot of things are construction material. and yes , i need to keep fodder as construction because other mods see it that way.
i personally have only 1 buildings so far in this mod that use fodder as building material : apiary. but i promise, there will more to come in beta 12.

i just verified back again, Rooftiles is the same flag as Bricks : Custom5 = Construction.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 13, 2018, 05:12:35 AM
I haven't made any notes from the production in the diary yet (or any other production building). There are still quite a few uneducated, who make the number unreliable. But I've seen around 1000 cheese for 2 worker at the most. Now I just looked and there was 1 educated an 1 uneducated diaryman, they made about 800 last year. You must also consider, that in this settlement, the production numbers will be a bit lower than normal. Since they need the double amount of food, they need to go home and eat more often.

If we say a diaryman normally produces at least 500 cheese, with a value of 6, each cheese has trade profit of 5 1/3. That makes the trade profit around 2700 for one worker and 5400 for the site  each year. I find it too much. It's more than firewood and more than pies, that need 3 ingredients.

I guess it's just bad luck, but the Bannis don't like roof tiles. I had the menu open for quite a while and never saw any in that store. As @brads3 use to say; Bannis have a mind of their own. Maybe they think, that roof tiles are heavier than bricks.  :-\ By the way, my idea about another building material store close to the stables work well. It's filled with fodder without vendor. My horses have enough to eat! :)

First picture


Finally got reason to build a canal. I've never used the sand bricks before. Looks very nice. With the new brick roads, it would be possible to "shape up" the area even more.

The mill and the fisher have still the default number of 2. I like the way it is now, with only one in each site very much. I would like the canal buildings that way, too. The mill doesn't grind all crops. I don't know, if it's necessary, but if the other mills do grind oats, rye.... as well.

Second picture

I also needed a supply and goods store in this south east area of the village. It works well. I don't need a vendor all the time. He switches between the grocery store and supply store. The building menu might be a bit confusing. It says "...... sells material to craft various goods (tools, fuel,....."
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 13, 2018, 11:58:53 AM
If we say a diaryman normally produces at least 500 cheese, with a value of 6, each cheese has trade profit of 5 1/3. That makes the trade profit around 2700 for one worker and 5400 for the site  each year. I find it too much. It's more than firewood and more than pies, that need 3 ingredients.


i reduced the number of ingredients, maybe i forgot if the value is ok with it.



The mill and the fisher have still the default number of 2. I like the way it is now, with only one in each site very much. I would like the canal buildings that way, too. The mill doesn't grind all crops. I don't know, if it's necessary, but if the other mills do grind oats, rye.... as well.


oh maybe i forgot to go back and add the new grains to the canal mills.



The building menu might be a bit confusing. It says "...... sells material to craft various goods (tools, fuel,....."

tell me then what should be the comment written.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 13, 2018, 12:18:48 PM

i reduced the number of ingredients, maybe i forgot if the value is ok with it.



reduced cheese to 3 and yogurt to 2.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 13, 2018, 12:21:45 PM
Quote
reduced cheese to 3 and yogurt to 2.
That sounds reasonable.

Quote
tell me then what should be the comment written.

I would suggest just take "materials to produce various goods" and the (  ) away. i think that's enough and clear enough.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 13, 2018, 12:36:20 PM


The mill and the fisher have still the default number of 2. I like the way it is now, with only one in each site very much. I would like the canal buildings that way, too. The mill doesn't grind all crops. I don't know, if it's necessary, but if the other mills do grind oats, rye.... as well.


oh maybe i forgot to go back and add the new grains to the canal mills.



done, i updated all canal mills with oats and rye :)

thanks you ! this is the kind of things this beta test has been set, to find those pearls :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 13, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
I would suggest just take "materials to produce various goods" and the (  ) away. i think that's enough and clear enough.


done !  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: galensgranny on March 13, 2018, 12:44:27 PM
I would suggest just take "materials to produce various goods" and the (  ) away. i think that's enough and clear enough.


done !  :)

I like the menus to give some idea of what kinds of goods are meant. 
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 13, 2018, 01:24:14 PM

I like the menus to give some idea of what kinds of goods are meant.

i am not super good at these comments ( i mean the comments i need to put at each buildings i do ^^)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 13, 2018, 03:30:16 PM
I find these menus good as well. But on that store, that contains firewood, tools, clothing..... that text is a bit confusing. I think it's left from the earlier version as this store contained material like clay.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 14, 2018, 02:47:04 AM
Your "no seeds" mod work well @RedKetchup. Thanks again.

There's not much to tell. It's hard to keep up with food production, but that's not new. I don't micromanage much anymore: I still start the harvest manually, and staff the orchards. I also close some small stores from time to time and change the production of different building materials. But most things run automatically.

I've built my third trading port. I'm not sure I should show the picture. @RedKetchup is not always pleased, when you use his mods in a way, they are not meant to. But I dare to show this. I find it looks good. It's also nice to use the small streams for something useful. Mostly they are only in the way, when you build. That might be a wish, to think about for all of your modders; to find buildings  to use the stream in a way that makes sense. There are some in the North (mill, instant fishing, crayfish) and I managed with some effort to place one of Red's sand pits on a stream in my last game, and I also think that if you play CC, there are some frog catcher and duck hunter, that could be placed on a stream, but that's about all I can remember.

I have a question about the markets and the inedible flour.  It looks like flour is not stored on your smaller market place. It only contains costumer's goods, so that might be logical. The small grocery stores however, can contain flour. Flour is special, you want it close to bakers, it's the only place you need it and want it. Now it's spread all over the map to every small store. I have tried to locate bakers a bit spread but that doesn't work well either, I guess I can afford too few vendors to fill the stores fast enough for both the people and the bakery. There are two options to make it work better:

1. Make flour eatable. Let it spread to all small, medium and big markets. Let the people bake their bread and cook their pancakes. It's easy to make an overproduction.
2. Let it stay inedible. Take it away from the small markets. It's better to lacate mills and bakeries together and not letting the flour spread all over the place.

I prefer option 1. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 04:53:06 AM
the old NMT had a grain store.it should store grain or flour ,i believe.this would be a time for the carts i mention,if the cart would bring just grain to a mill and then flour to the bakery.
    SMURF mentioned that as the vendors are busy stocking different items,they get too busy to keep specific items stocked.this "policy" seems to be differ from market to market.i have 2 KID's markets,2 different mods.1 was set to stock miners,it fills 1st with materials and food later.the provision store will fill with food quicker than matertials later. seems there should be ways to use this part of the coding to our advantage.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 14, 2018, 10:50:18 AM
you mean cart with a vendor, like a stall ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
yes,CC has market carts.  could do logs,grain,flour,minerals,etc. that way a worker is used to bring items to supply a workplace. like textile cart feeds a tailor. the only issue will be if the cart fills with a different item. like KID's log depot in the game i have now does store coal and logs.in the TOWNES map, i used KID's market puzzle to move grain to the mills along the canals.the advantage is the vendors can carry more at a time.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 14, 2018, 11:21:36 AM
the only issue will be if the cart fills with a different item.

everything works with flags, everything in that flag are equal and cant be seperated.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 11:36:29 AM
the tricky paty is how do they prioritize what goes in them or from where they get items? i gave seen vendors walk past stocked barns to get items.KID's FO barn would fill to a certain level and then the vendor would go haul the goods back.some markets will store food 1st then other items. others do the opposite.some vendors go idle more than others. others actually work with laborers more.not all vendors act the same.
    i can't see inside the coding to tell if they prioritize due to the order they are listed or by alphabetical,etc.take the idea of a grain wagon. if we knew the "trick" we could code it to priority grain. as it reaches a % limit of flour,it would move that out to make room for grain.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Turis on March 14, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Gatherer on March 14, 2018, 12:53:20 PM
like KID's log depot in the game i have now does store coal and logs.
Is coal also stored on wood stockpiles? Are you using Stop Burning Coal Mod?


I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D
Ah...But from which country's territorial waters was it fished from? :D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 14, 2018, 12:56:45 PM
I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D

nan they come with a stample " Made in Japan' or 'Made in USA" ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 01:41:11 PM
@Gatherer ,my coal is being stored with logs in KID's log depot.yes i have the no burning coal mod. i took the compatabilty mods out.it could be due to mod order though. it isn't a problem yet,since i don't have much coal.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 03:54:37 AM
@brads3 , the small stores from Red partly work like the charts; not quite as specialized. But as they are now, they work fine in most cases. This "flagging" do cause some trouble. It is a limit but it also makes it challenging. It's a challenge for the modders to create good specialized stores, that work in most cases and it's a challenge for use players, to use them in the best way.

I do agree with you, that distribute goods to where they are needed, is one of the real tricky parts in Banished. These specialized stores/charts/markets/piles with or without vendor, are often useful but might be tricky and cause more trouble than help. Take the markets for only one category of food as an example. It might be convenient to have a store for only protein close to dryers/salters/butchers/diaries but people who live in the neighborhood, will also get their food at that store, with a consequence of bad health, because they get only protein. The same, if you use some market puzzle with specialized market stands. They are not good, if you want a healthy population. So in many cases good location is more important than good specialized stores.

I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?

First picture

Soon I will have to upgrade my coal mine. Since you've changed the production, I also wanted to see, if candles might be good to produce for export. The profit of each candle is now the reasonable 4, but the annual production is low, so there will not be any candle production for export. The annual production is around 100, that makes a profit of 400. I wouldn't mind, if the production would be doubled. It wouldn't make the profit unreasonable and it would fit well with wax from one apiary with 2 workers. If you really want to produce a lot of candles, you'll now need 2 candlemaker for each apiary.

How do I think about products worth to export?

First there might be goods I want to get rid of. Of cause these are sold first. In this game there are no such products, maybe I should sell some wool, but I try to produce wool coats instead. We can take the coats as an example of something, that I find profitable enough to sell, not overpowered but OK. The tailors produce 80 coats each year. The profit is 10 each, that makes 800.

In this game my calculation goes like this: Each person eat 200 and need other supply (firewood, clothes, tools) worth about 50. Each adult has to support one child. That means, an average worker has to produce a value of 500. Now there are also some vendors and traders who not produce anything. So a "make even" value in this game is 600, everything below is a loss. Of cause in a vanilla game this is lower, but not much less than 400.

One small thing about the candlemaker, @RedKetchup; the menu still says 30 beeswax like it used to be. It should be changed to 16.

Second picture

I just want to confess a cheat. Normally I like to rebuild a settlement when something is destroyed but not this time. I went back to the autosave.  :-[



Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Gatherer on March 15, 2018, 09:45:10 AM
@Gatherer ,my coal is being stored with logs in KID's log depot.yes i have the no burning coal mod. i took the compatabilty mods out.it could be due to mod order though. it isn't a problem yet,since i don't have much coal.
No Burning Coal Mod interferes with log stockpiles. It makes coal and logs getting stored together. I've used this mod on some of my older maps but not anymore. Bannies prefer firewood so a few coals being siphoned away from blacksmith chain is not a catastrophe.

I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?
Used to like it as inedible but in my current town I'm drowning in it. And I'm only using a single Kid's small grain grinder. I've yet to enable work at the canal mill.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 15, 2018, 12:14:11 PM
I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?

One small thing about the candlemaker, @RedKetchup; the menu still says 30 beeswax like it used to be. It should be changed to 16.

yeah need more comments on flour case.

about candlemaker... you are right and i fixed it :) thanks you
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 16, 2018, 10:50:45 AM
Only played very little yesterday, so there's nothing new to show. Instead there will be some "real life" pictures, made today. If this was Banished land, the harvest this year would be miserable. We still have very deep frost all day long, even if the march sun has some power.

The first picture is made from our little jetty. The traces on the ice are from our children, who amused themselves on the ice last weekend, as it was a bit warmer.

The second is from the "village beach" and harbour. After the first ice there was a storm, that broke the ice. After that again deep Siberian frost, that made the ice floe freeze. In life it looks very beautiful. Couldn't really catch it on the picture.

The road to the mailbox. @Tom Sawyer you are absolutely right in your design of the Nordic barn, if you compare it to my neighbor's.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Gatherer on March 16, 2018, 11:18:19 AM
Beautiful country.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 17, 2018, 05:53:54 AM
Yes, I live in a nice area.

This Banished village is also a nice area. A while ago I thought, that I wanted to play it 100 years but I think it will be longer. It's still a very nice game and space enough to keep on developing. So I will go on, at least until @RedKetchup comes with a new version of this mod or the cooperation between @Tom Sawyer and @Discrepancy shows some result.

Today I want to talk about processing proteins.

First I want to ask the question: why do we process proteins?
1. To increase the amount of food.
2. To trade.
3. Diversity.

My answer is; all of these reasons. Most of the sites also work well considering all these aspects.

The list contains these numbers for each product. I hope there are not all too much miscalculation.
Annual production for one worker
Annual increase of food for one worker (output-input). This is the important value, if you want to produce food to use yourself.
Annual profit for one worker (trade value out-tradevalue in) This is the important value, if you want to export the food.

Milk
Red diary (I haven't tried the smaller)

Cheese
Production: 450
Food: 150
Profit: 2400 (new with the value of 3 gives 1000)

Cream (I haven't ran the following products a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the cheese productivity)
Production:550
Food: 200
Profit: 1800 (with the value of 4, I don't know if this is changed but 3 would give 1250 and 2 gives 700)

Butter
Production: 550
Food: 130
Profit: 2900 (with the value of 6, changed to 3 would give 1100)

Yogurt
Production: 600
Food: 200
Profit: 1400 (with the value 3, new value 2 gives 800)

Fish

Dryer
Production: 700
Food: 350
Profit: 350

Salter (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some salt)
Profit: 260 (with the value of 2 it would be 950)

Smoker (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some firewood)
Profit: 230 (with the value of 2 it would be 900)

Meat

Dryer
Production: 700
Food: 350
Profit: 350

Salter (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some salt)
Profit: 950

Smoker (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some firewood)
Profit: 900

As you can see, with the planned changes of the tradeprices of the milk products, these values are good balanced. Maybe I could wish some milkproduct, that would give a little higher increased food value for "domestic use" and some fish product, that would be good to export (a change of salted/smoked fish to 2). But we can live with these values.

Pictures

I've developed this stream to a "half canal". I find it looks OK. That's the way people used to do it anyway, at least here in Sweden: If there was a stream or or a lake, where ships could go, it was used. In between a canal was built.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 17, 2018, 06:21:12 AM
i like your post alot

so all the numbers seems fine but 1 item : butter i will change it to 3 and all the numbers will be great :)
thanks you alot for all the insights :)

yeah this weekend will have a new build with the new numbers and all the other things i did :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 17, 2018, 08:22:28 AM
glad to hear NILLA's take and her agreeing with these #'s. having the food production increase food amounts is smart. though in reality there is some loss in production,from a game point of view increasing it benefits the bannies.knowing NILLA looks at the trade values,it is nice to hear she is happy with the balance. this is outstanding work by both of you. give RED a pat on the back for developing the food processors this way.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 18, 2018, 05:53:27 AM
Yes @brads3, unless you're thinking about export only, the way to give sense to production chains is to increase the amount. I don't think it's unrealistic. Say you take 1 fish and make 2 fillets, 2 bags of grain to make 3 pouch of flour to give 5 bread. Nothing weird.

And yes @RedKetchup you always had a good sense for balancing. And balancing is difficult, I realize that. First it's hard to know, what is reasonable? Should you measure the values with the often overpowered vanilla buildings? I know you did that at the very beginning. But only buildings with this, makes the game too easy. But on the other hand, when everything has a much lower profit than vanilla, or has such a low profit, that they don't make any sense, doesn't work good either. Everything doesn't need to be good for export, but at least give you some value.

I will go on with the same calculation for some other products.

First I forgot the butcher yesterday, but it seem to have the same values as the dryer.

Flour
Production 1000
Food (inedible) 600
Profit 1400 (with a value of 1 ; 400)

Bread
Production 400 (estimated)
Food - 100
Profit 150

Cake
Production 550
Food 400
Profit 1600

Pie
Production 500
Food 50
Profit 2300

Perfume
Production 250
Profit 1800
 
I would make some changes, when it comes to flour/bread production. Here are some suggestions:

Flour; I find the trade value too high. Flour is no "natural" trade product. A change to 1 would make the production reasonable.

Bread; I would like, that bread would be a good product for domestic use, but no big trade product. Now 16 flour makes 12 bread, I think to change it (12->16) would probably not be enough, maybe 12 flour give 20 or 24 bread. The trade value of bread ought to be set down, I suggest to 1 with this higher production.

Cake; I would like cake to be a decent product; domestic and export. It's quite OK as it is, but the profit a bit too high. A trade value of 3 would be enough.

Pie; This was all time, from your very first model a long time ago, the great trade product. I don't know, if pie in a real world would be something a village like this could trade, but I like it to be anyway! I find it also OK, if they bring a good profit; not so easy to produce, you need 3 ingredients. If the increase in food is small, like it is now, you also need a good logistic to transport it fast to the port or the people would eat them and the profit will soon be gone. But maybe the profit is a bit high, even concerning these circumstances, a value of 5 (or maybe even 4 especially if the flour is set to1) could be enough.

Perfume
It's also a very high profit. But unless you can import a lot of flowers, there's a limit on how much flowers a map can give and how many perfume maker you can have on one map. I haven't tried to order flowers, I don't even know, if the merchants will bring enough. A solution could be to increase the value of flowers and keep the rest.

Picture

Here I show two sites, with opposite production. The apiary is very profitable and the fishpond not. (note the apiary has 2 and pond only 1 worker)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: brads3 on March 18, 2018, 08:37:36 AM
the CC way was set to push trade value up. it did this at the expense of volume.a player would try to process foods to help the bannies and in fact the food reserves would drop considerably.RED's way sounds much better.improving the food to the bannies is more important.
           NILLA,how are the crop outputs? i know you mentioned them before,but i thought RED tweaked them with the update.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 18, 2018, 09:20:33 AM
ok


thanks you for the real testing you do :)


so ...

i lowered flour to 1 value
12 flour to make 16-20 bread at 2 value
cake lowered to 3 value
pie lowered to 4 value
perfume lowered to 6 (about the merchants, it already been set they wont bring alot of flowers at same time)
nmt30 pond output has been increased. time to fish from 8 units to 6 units to get a fish out.

i am still working on the carts. took me more time than i thought. making 12 carts, they all personalized to reflect what they should hold.
i need to change the toolbars though after, too many barns, too many carts, too many markets... they all will need to get their sub toolbars.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: smurphys7 on March 18, 2018, 11:30:06 AM
Your balancing should factor in time.  Time is a huge factor of profitability.  I don't have the numbers for the un-modded game but for Colonial Charter here are some examples based on THESE spreadsheets (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/topic/988-cc-175-spreadsheets/):

Firewood: 1.75 Value created per "Time" (I don't know if unmodded game uses same #s):
16 Value (4 Firewood) Educated Output
2 Value (1 Log) Input
14 Value created per cycle

2 Work Required
4 Work Time
8 Total Work

14 Value / 8 Work = 1.75 Value created per "Time"

Ale: 1.25 Value Created per "Time"
80 Output Value
30 Input Value
50 Value Created

10 Work Required
4 Work Time
40 Total Work

50 Value / 40 Time = 1.25 Value Created per "Time"

These are two of the classic and most profitable creators.  As you said, not everything needs to be super valuable.  I agree with that not everything needs to be super valuable and super profitable.  HOWEVER, it is possible to have something create large value yet still be a poor value creation option.  Comparing value created alone is insufficient without time. 

Domesticated Animal: 0.35 Value Created per "Time"
250 Output Value (1 Animal)
200 Input Value (200 Oats)
50 Value Created

20 Work Required
20 Work Time
140 Total Work

50 Value / 140 Time = 0.35 Value Created per "Time"

I have been told several times that "Domesticated Animals" are the best trade option in Colonial Charter.  In reality, a better option for your workers would be literally digging up Reeds all day at the Dock set's Reed farm: 0.6 Value per Time.

It is difficult to compare these numbers to direct producers like Gatherers, Hunters, Fisherman and Farmers because they don't directly function via work-time like Woodcutters.  However, I think somewhere around 0.5 to 0.8 are a great balance.  I think things that are drastically above or drastically below should bear closer inspection.  I am not saying the outliers surely need adjustment.  I am saying the outliers should have strong reasoning for why they merit being outliers.

For perspective on some I consider outrageous in CC:
Charcoal: 5.0
Coke Fuel 4.219
Steel Tools: 0.4
Bronze Tools: 0.1
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: Nilla on March 18, 2018, 02:25:28 PM
I play very little CC so I can't say much to your specific numbers. (But I do remember that charcoal used to be ridiculously profitable, I think they've reduced it in later versions), You can see, that my numbers are based on "empiric" production values from my present town. I simply look a few years, how much is produced in the actual site. That includes the time. I find, this is a more reliable way to go, than only use the theoretic period of production. There's another important thing, that has an impact on the real productivity and that's how often the worker has to leave the production site and get more material. It's a big difference, if he gets 10 material each time or 100, it's also a difference, if he needs 3 different materials and have to go away 3 times or no input at all. 

I will make an example based on your numbers and my experience; comparing ale and firewood in a vanilla game. Your numbers would say, that firewood would give 1/3 more than ale (1,75/1,25) time value.

In real a good chopper makes 800 firewood and a good brewer 500. The profit for 1 wood is 3,5, the ale 5. This gives an annual profit of 2800/2500, a bit but not 1/3 more for firewood. I think this is because the chopper only gets 10 wood at the time, while the brewer gets 100 fruit. Of cause location of storage, homes..... are also important and the production in these sites may be higher but are also often lower.

Of cause my numbers are not the absolute truth, just based on my actual game. But I think in any case better than only theory.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: RedKetchup on March 18, 2018, 02:59:37 PM
beta 11 is available, let me know if it is save compatible !
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10
Post by: smurphys7 on March 18, 2018, 03:51:06 PM
I understand we, the players and testers, can't see the full numbers without ridiculous amounts of testing.  The numbers are good for mod creators to have their products be at reasonable levels of usefulness without testing.  We, the players, can mostly test and determine "yes, there isn't anything that is radically good or bad".
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 19, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
beta 11 is available, let me know if it is save compatible !
Yes it looks as if it is. The old buildings seem to take the new values without demolition, at least the ones I checked. The new tradevalues work. No crashes. It was late as I downloaded the mod yesterday but so far it looks alright. I will start a new game anyway. It's part of the fun. We'll see later, what I want to do. Is there anything special you want to have tested @RedKetchup?

I understand we, the players and testers, can't see the full numbers without ridiculous amounts of testing.  The numbers are good for mod creators to have their products be at reasonable levels of usefulness without testing.  We, the players, can mostly test and determine "yes, there isn't anything that is radically good or bad".

Believe it or not, I am that crazy, looking at such values all the time. Maybe not always this thorough with numbers. I made that right from the beginning, from the first game I played, and still do, when I try something new. I look in the menu, how much material are used and how much is produced in one cycle, look in the trading port of the values, estimate the profit/loss for one of each product, look at the annual production a couple of years and calculate an average annual win; in tradevalue as well as for domestic use. I do this while playing, calculation "in my head" (I'm old enough to have been in school before the calculators, so I can do this :) ) Sometimes I make some notes on a sheet on my desk, not always easy to decipher and the most likely source for mistakes,  :-[
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 19, 2018, 11:50:30 AM
Is there anything special you want to have tested @RedKetchup?


check the carts how they working, efficacity, holding the right things, etc.
brads also reported trouble with some fences... found it
check the new numbers :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 19, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
First a general comment, after looking a a lot of what you have done, its wonderful to find someone who thinks like me that balance is a very important subject. I also like the many images you have posted. :)

I agree food transformation should aim at feeding the people not generate profit unless it involves 3 or more transformations. There are many ways to create goods for export that don't involve food. I think that is very much in the spirit of the game a designed by Luke. I think your values and the changes made for them are very correct.

On CC: there are many areas that need to be changed, some production chains are totally unbalanced, I have seen the code and worked the numbers, but CC is now mostly inactive except for MM, which is a very difficult task for just one man. Anyway we are here to discuss Red's mod, and Nilla's villages, not compare it with others who have different design principles.

I have studied production in detail, across several mods and can tell you that even if you code certain numbers you can't control all the variables. In Banished: Time = Distance = Production, in the code you have two values for production but they don't factor in what a modder can't control: distance. This refers to the distance, (time) between home, storage, (input or output), market, (getting your: food, fuel, clothing, and tools), and the speed of travel, (type of road), and the production site. You also have no way of accounting for functions like happiness, and health which also take time, (distance). Placing all the necessary buildings close will increase production, but that is the best you can do. You can design numbers but a better way of seeing what is happening is with careful examination the way Nilla does.

I have created some formulas for balance, but that is something best discussed elsewhere, I won't hijack Nilla blog with technical numbers discussions. If there is an interest I might start my own blog.

I would like to thank you for working so hard at making this the best mod possible.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 19, 2018, 06:53:12 PM
I agree in much what you say, @Denis de la Rive. A theoretic value is one thing; might be useful but to look how things work in a real game is more reliable.

I don't mind, if the theory of balancing is discussed here. As you might understand, I like to look at balancing, productivity and such things and I'm testing the mods in my special way. Of cause I like to discuss it with someone, who also have thought about these things.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 19, 2018, 07:55:04 PM
I think you way of testing is probably the best one, it gives the modder very useful information. I'm not sure how much of Banished coding you understand, and don't want to confuse people with complex formulas, without explaining certain elements of how the game code works.

What can be said is: in the mod kit there are no real ways to determine what the value of goods should be, this and the lack of documentation from Luke creates a lot of the problems. The advantage of having a way to calculate this can indicate to a designer how to modify values such as input or final trade value. You can use the known values of vanilla buildings and resources as a basis to see how your new items fit into the game.

When you are making a mod it can be more important to focus on graphics, which are more difficult, and actual coding which is more practical, than on tools to use for balance. It is also a subject that few are interested in or want to take the time to understand. Many players want to suggest, or find bugs, or make requests, but not discuss the underlying factors involved in how the game works.

My formulas are on my other computer, but I can see what I can post tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 20, 2018, 04:43:03 AM
I'm not sure how much of Banished coding you understand, and don't want to confuse people with complex formulas, without explaining certain elements of how the game code works.

That's a good question, as people use to say, when there's no precise answer. I can answer "nothing" or "quite a lot". ;)

I know nothing about the special Banished coding. It is special, so much I've understood. But I have a basic knowledge of programming (very old from the time as the languages that were "in" had names like Fortran and TurboPascal) and I've also had a long professional life, as user of different kind of software. That helps you understand possibilities. I've followed the work of the modders here on this page from day 1 (with some interruptions from time to time), tested a lot and suggested changes, especially in balancing. So I rather have a feeling for how the codes of production (and some other things as well) work, and what possibilities there are for changes, than knowledge about the coding. That's enough for me. I don't really want to know in detail. I haven't even downloaded the mod kit to check it out. I confess, it's lazy; it's comfortable to have the others work and only enjoy the result. Call me an eccentric old lady, if you want. ;)

I've been thinking a bit more about your argumentation against the use of "advanced building materials" in basic buildings in that other thread, @Denis de la Rive. I know, this is speculation and it might be wrong. But I think your concern is based on experience from CC, where the production of these materials is a pain for people like us, who like to look at balancing. I can't speak of good balancing, when a material is so hard and expensive to produce, that you can buy it for a minor part of the production costs. @RedKetchupīs production chains are different. I have no actual values, most because I usually don't run them continuously long enough. But the way I see it, all of them are good in every aspect of balancing; you can produce the amount of material you need in a reasonable time, the value of the material increases enough, to make it worth produce yourself, but not that much, that these materials are worth to export.

In my new game I've decided to prove, how easy it is to use these "advanced materials". I've chosen an Adam and Eve start. I will build a trading port, a lighthouse (much nicer and more expensive townhall alternative) and a doctor as fast as I can. For my own amusement, I've decided to give it a small "twist" and educate all children.

I just see, I was so busy playing, that I didn't make many screenshots along the way. But I'll show you those I made and tell a little bit about my choices.

First picture

Starting position and map setting. No other mods than RKEC. I like the canals, that's the reason I choose a lake map. This was the first I opened and it looks promising; several lakes to connect with canals in a way that make sense. I have decided to play this game without farming. My two last test games were based on farming. Here it will be forestry, fishing, meadows and trade (not firewood and ale). I think, that will give additional aspects, to how your buildings work, @RedKetchup.

One small thing. The menu says that they start with: 7 tools, 7 rags........ But it's actually hide coats. They wear rags themselves as they start, so they grab one coat each at once.

Second picture

Year 4. The house is full and life is tough with only one person working to support the family, while one is busy educating. At the moment of this screenshot, it looks like collecting food will be the next task. If you try an Adam and Eve start; don't forget the "instant gathering tool". It's very useful, also at the beginning of a "normal" start. Why not a similar tool for firewood, @RedKetchup? The first thing I built after the house, was that big woodchopper. A bit stupid, if a couple stranded out in the woods with more or less nothing, will have to build this rather impressive workplace as one of the first things, when the forest is full of wood.

In any case, it didn't take long until Stela was educated and her graduation present; a house of her own was just about to be ready. She just had to help finish the last details. If we play Adam and Eve we must put our "moral values" by side and be happy, that she took her little brother in and that soon her first child was born; at the same time as her youngest brother. This was the thought by finishing that second house as soon as possible; room for one more "child of Eve's".

Third picture

This is the next screenshot I made, unfortunately nothing in between. Also no save to go back to and make some now later. Anyhow, you can see that the first part of my task is done. These 8 adults managed to build the trading port. It took some time; until year 12. There were other things in between to manage but there was no big problem.

There was a time; maybe 2 years, where they had no coats. But Bannis can do with rags. They just don't work that good in winter; have to go home more often to get warm, but that's all. The reason was less the need of advanced materials, than my idea of getting all children educated (even if the need of lumber slowed the finishing of the tailor down) But there wasn't enough time for one single person to support the family, collect materials and build a house for the daughter, finish the hunter, hunt some deer, build a lumber cutter, cut lumber, collect material for a tailor and build a tailor. After a third and later a fourth person helped, this worked fine, but of cause took some time.

Anyhow, it didn't take long to produce the little lumber and glass needed for that port; the stones took longer to collect. There were also other things, to do in between; a new graduation present for every girl. (There might be some talk about unfairness in this village; the girls get a house, the boys nothing :-\) The health went down to 3 harts and I didn't want to risk a disease, so we needed a herbalist and of cause a reliable sustainable support of logs, is always essential; the forester can't wait long.

As next the lighthouse is on the schedule.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 20, 2018, 01:29:37 PM
wow i like that !
i never played adam&eve myself ^^

at first glimpse it would rather look scary and hard.... but you making it so easy lol


about firewood.....
you know at beginning, fodder-thatch was some kind of "firewood" and it was taking care of what you are asking ^^
but i ve got to change it. not sure i like the change though because i liked that idea. of course, although as much as i loved that idea, i was also getting some feelings about it was making the game so easy too...

but with your suggestion, i can maybe add some brambles spawns which would give some "firewood" and since the spawns would be more rare like wild food, maybe it can be a good thing. i like the idea to send a couple of bannies to gather firewood for half of a season sometimes to prepare for the winter :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 20, 2018, 02:10:05 PM
i wish an A&E start could be faked to load as medium so the pine mod would still work with it.it is odd how just changing the bannie start count offsets other mods.Nilla is used to firewood that TOM added to the NORTH mod.she is crazy to do all that micro-managing with 1 worker.i have both firewood from NORTH and burnable thatch.and RED's wood houses use it for construction and burn it.

1 other thing the NORTH does different is the trade values change from time to time.not every merchant pays or charges the same amounts.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 20, 2018, 04:17:53 PM
Frist: Red, you have a nice idea, but be careful not to make too much of it, if it spawns at start in small numbers like your copper, that would be a creative additions. You have to careful not to replace the firewood function. I don't know what value you have for copper, but this should be at most 5 to 10% of that value. You have to remember that what is spawn at the start will remain until collected, that will leave less space for the other things that are grown or dropped by trees. You have to balance all your new resources so things can still be created, and to avoid making it more like a cheat.

I understand the need you feel to make the game harder, but it might be more interesting to create objectives by using buildings that are an achievement, (hard to build), starting conditions, terrain mixes, than by altering the basic game functions. You could change spawn numbers and other factors with a similar type of code to create Red's challenges, hard, very hard, insane, (you get nothing to start, on a map with very little spawned resources, is that possible, if so then yes its hard). By doing this you can create something that can be used by many more players, who can choose the level they like, not be forced into something beyond their skills. You know a level one character on a level 30 quest!

To brads3: what you find crazy, I admire, such attention and concentration to the game is precious, and it works. I don't see why you would want to discuss the north here, maybe I'm confused. I also don't understand why you would want to alter the value of the challenge that is A&E by making it too easy.

To: Nilla, like Red wrote WOW! You are certainly a better player than me, where you micro-manage, I macro-manage, totally different styles.

You misunderstand why I think certain things can be too difficult to make, I have a lot of knowledge of CC, but I am not writing about my playing style, or my own requests, but rather about design, and how it is important to avoid making some of the mistakes I have seen in some mods, including CC. I try to imagine how a mod will be used by the average player, or even one who has not played the the game before. I do this because I have helped a large number of players who just don't understand how to play, or have the tricks the experts know. When you design for a game it is important to think about the users, and not to focus on a single playing style. I have nothing against your style, I agree that you are presenting YOUR way, and that is both OK, and useful.

About coding for Banished: you use what Luke has published, examples and templates to create mods, it is simple, not overly complex, but nothing is explained, some functions are still not well understood as to what they actually do to the game. There are nor reference that tell you how making changes will cause the game to act. The code for buildings, (which includes production), resources, are not very complicated when you understand what the functions mean. The graphics part is much more involved, thankfully Red is a master at that!

Taking work, there are two values, one for the amount of work, the other for the number of times it must be done to accomplish a task. So you get 10 x 5 = 50, to get a certain job done, be it building, or making. Some functions are more complex since they refer to other ways of creating goods, like fishing or hunting. But again the code is simple, (in reference to the programming you have done in the past).

What I have done is create numbers based on vanilla values so you can compare what is being added to the game with what remains the benchmark, vanilla values. If you think it is still interesting we can continue from here. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 20, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
i will clarify i don't want an A&E to be easy to play. if i load any A&E start,some mods don't work. the pine mod and ND are affected and the items won't appear at all.i wish there was a way to "trick" the program into thinking it loaded a medimu start but with ony w bannies.like 4-2,you still get the 2 bannies and could have less resources but the game would allow the other mods to fully work.
     i mentioned the North because she normally plays that. many of her ideas reflect TOM's great work there.or vise versa too.and she is too crazy.she lives near the north pole but doesn't hand out presents. but she wears a red suit with horns....... wait what
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 20, 2018, 04:59:47 PM
RK Ed has a A&E
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 20, 2018, 05:21:15 PM
after this game,i'll have to clear my registry and try it. normally the pine and nd are set to work on medium start. switching to an A&E turns them off.not sure why. i even tried an addon mod that should have just changed the bannie count and start resources.i need Nilla to send me a tornado right at the start to knock out half the population and most of the resources.LOL
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 20, 2018, 07:36:24 PM
I'm still confused, why do you want these to override RK Ed, there are many great aspects of this mod, maybe I'm just getting old. Otherwise, you have to choose which mods you use, its impossible to have everything, even with MM.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 20, 2018, 08:48:52 PM
have you seen my village blogs? i never play right.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: galensgranny on March 20, 2018, 09:40:01 PM
I'm still confused, why do you want these to override RK Ed, there are many great aspects of this mod, maybe I'm just getting old. Otherwise, you have to choose which mods you use, its impossible to have everything, even with MM.

You were asking Brad, but I also have been playing with over riding parts of RK Choice since I don't want to clear that grass/thatch that is all over the place right now, and I don't want to get involved with the flower situation yet.  I do not understand the fodder farming system yet.  But, I LOVE his new buildings that are not available separately. 

Right now, I am mostly playing for style and layout, while keeping the Bannies fed and warm.  But the looks matters more to me right now.  I am just now starting to have to make iron, having gotten used to making bricks and roof tiles for a while now, so I want to keep playing mostly like I was used to, but with adding the having to make iron and get some other building supplies for Red's new buildings.  After I get used to all that, I will try with RK Choice as the main mod.  Then I will tackle how the fodder farming and flower perfume whatever it is chain works.  Basically, for me, all at once it was too big a change for me.  I don't want to have learn too much new at once since when I have my play time, I want to basically have some mindless escapism fun with different city designs.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 20, 2018, 10:03:35 PM
Nothing wrong with playing like that, but it should not be the source of comments on how aspects you override work, or more clearly how you want them to fit your personal mod choices. If you only want to discuss graphics, that is also OK, but I feel he is discussing things like starting conditions he want to be compatible with other mods.

I can't understand why he wants Red to take a step back simply so he can use his favorite mods. When I comment on a mod, I never try to make it like what someone else has already done, I look at the mod as it is, or could be.

I firmly believe Red can create a very wonderful mod that can be used by many people, but it should not be a copy of what has already been published.

Again, if you choose certain mods you must live with the consequences, its not up to mod makers to fix everything for you.

Note Nilla stated she likes playing with only one mod, so why should she be forced to use others to make RK Ed work?

Sorry Nilla if this conversation is getting too far from your work.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: galensgranny on March 20, 2018, 10:16:52 PM
Thanks, @Nilla , for your detailed start showing how you did things, even with just starting with only two Bannies!  So with more Bannies to start, it would not take as many years to get materials for RK's Choice trade port, and not as long for them to build a tailor to getsome new clothes as it took you with just two to start.  I do feel badly for the Bannies wearing rags.

Quote
The first thing I built after the house, was that big woodchopper. A bit stupid, if a couple stranded out in the woods with more or less nothing, will have to build this rather impressive workplace as one of the first things, when the forest is full of wood.

Yes, that it why I use Kid's tiny chopper from his Tiny Separate mod when I first start a game.  No way would a few people who have an ax not chop a bit of wood for a fireplace in at least one house first so they don't freeze to death, and then get to cutting enough wood for more buildings.

about firewood.....
you know at beginning, fodder-thatch was some kind of "firewood" and it was taking care of what you are asking ^^
but i ve got to change it. not sure i like the change though because i liked that idea. of course, although as much as i loved that idea, i was also getting some feelings about it was making the game so easy too...

but with your suggestion, i can maybe add some brambles spawns which would give some "firewood" and since the spawns would be more rare like wild food, maybe it can be a good thing. i like the idea to send a couple of bannies to gather firewood for half of a season sometimes to prepare for the winter :)

That is a good idea, for Bannies to be able to gather something for the first fireplaces before building a entire building before being able to get a few logs to burn to not freeze to death while building that wood cutter building.  :D   But, you don't want to gather brambles!  Brambles are a dense prickly shrub, like wild roses, or blackberry bushes, both of which have sharp thorns and would not be used to burn for a fireplace.  Instead, gathering fallen branches would be what one would do for building a fire.  Maybe just call it "branches".
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 21, 2018, 03:50:36 AM
Much happenend in this thread last night, seems like most of you live "over see", active when we here in Europe are sleeping tight. I don't mind, all kind of discussion here, at least as long as it is done in a polite/friendly/respectful way. (OK, some exceptions may be allowed; @brads3 might be rude and @Turis cheeky. Some natural forces can't be changed. ) ;)

about firewood

Yes, @brads3 is right; the idea of collecting firewood in the woods comes from the North and since I've played the North a lot, of cause I thought of it, and missed it, as I started this A&E game and needed firewood. Normally in a Nordic game, I don't use this opportunity much. It's useful at the beginning or when you realize, that it's late autumn and your stocks of firewood are almost empty, it's easier to send some people out in the woods, than build another chopper. The gatherers also collect firewood in the North, it's good that way, because there's as good as no wild food in the forest in Winter. In a "vanilla gameplay" it's different; wild food also spawn in winter, and I guess introducing these collectable branches, may interfere in another way here.

I'm not sure, that the game was easier, as thatch was a fuel. I rather found it more difficult. Of cause not the start. There you are right @RedKetchup, it's easier with burnable thatch. I mean later in game, if you want to use the fodder-fertilizer chain. I think it's difficult enough to get thatch for the horses now, when thatch is labled as building material and carried around to every possible location, where such material can be stored. Labled as fuel as well, was worse. You needed to have huge overproduction of firewood, a very good logistic for it, otherwise thatch was burned and not enough food for your horses left. I find, it would have been a pity, if this has limited the use of this unique and very nice chain of production. I do recommend to try this chain @galensgranny!. At the beginning, as the settlement is small and you also get a lot of fodder by clearing ground, these difficulties I write about, aren't big.

Something called live is calling. I'll write more this afternoon.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 21, 2018, 01:12:14 PM
Back home. I will continue my comments of your comments.

about A&E start

It's not very difficult to start Adam and Eve, @RedKetchup, at least not when you're used to micromanage things. For people who don't really know, what micromanagement is good for and how to use it, I suggest to try an A&E start. Here it's absolutely necessary, although I made it a little more difficult than it had to be. I think it's wiser to let the fist children stay uneducated, but I need my fun, too. ;)

It is a bit weird, when you play A&E with else vanilla settings or this RKEd only, that you have to build those large buildings, to produce a few basic things. I mentioned the "professional" wood cutter to supply one house with firewood and the advanced tailor for a few coats. (A blacksmith contain some technology, a special processing, that makes some kind of separate building necessary, so that building is more OK to make early). But you have seen; it works. But normally I would recommend to use some additional mods, like @kid1293īs "Forest Outpost", "Tiny" and some of his workplaces, to get a more comfortable start.

About RK Ed

You misunderstood me, @Denis de la Rive, when you think, that I always like to play with just one mod. It's only, if I want to test a major mod like this, I get a much better feeling for the advantage/disadvantage/possibilities/shortcoming/development potential.......if I play it pure. There are others who are keen on testing, how it work with other mods, in different ways; from a normal set of mods to the most insane mixture (Yes, @brads3; I'm talking about you ;) )

I can assure everyone, including you Denis, this mod is a great stand alone mod. I will not say, it makes the game harder. It makes it more complex, (I hope, that word has the same meaning in English as it has in Swedish and German), more interesting, gives you more possibilities, without really changing the gameplay. Though I can understand, that some things may be a bit overwhelming, the first time you see it, and I find your approach @galensgranny smart; take one new thing after the other, if it feels too much to try everything at once.

But I also find, that @RedKetchup has made some wise compromises, just to make it more playable, also for not so experienced player. (Maybe not absolute beginners, who play their first game, but I find, that no modder should think of them in the first place. If they become problems using a lot of/large mods, so be it. They should learn the basics first.) I first found; hm... the foundry, too simple; only ore, no fuel? But after thinking a bit about it, I find this good; a compromise between the too simple original Banished with iron on the ground and the more complex smelter from other mods, where you need a processed fuel as well. I would have managed charcoal, furnacefuel, coke or whatever there is, but I can also live with this compromise.

Production formulas

I'm a bit "geeky" so of cause, I'm intrested to see your formulas, @Denis de la Rive. Especially, if they contain more than only the "basics": amount and period of production.

And finally to my present game

First mission accomplished; I now have a beautiful lighthouse and a small clinic; not used so far because no one was ill. There are also some more development.  I'll show you some pictures.

First picture

The impressive lighthouse soon done. As expected, hardest (=took the most time) was to collect all stone that was needed.

Second picture

Some merchants have an optimism far beyond stupidity. Do you think this one will make some business here? ;)

I know, I said I want no trade with firewood, but this is just now at the beginning. I will take it away as soon as I have something else to sell the resource merchant, that makes sense. It will be perfume.

Third picture

There's been a small setback. This is somehow a cursed area. If you look at the food graph, you can see a severe drop last year; it was a fire, that destroyed the hunter, herbalist and the worse thing; the forset barn, the main barn for storing food in this village. That was not enough, as soon as everything was rebuilt the young forester Cecilin was hit by a tree and left her student husband alone with a newborn!  :( :'(

Fourth picture

Finally food store back where it should be, and time to build the clinic.

You wished the charts to be tested @RedKetchup and you know, your wish is my command. But I'll only try those, that I feel make sense.  :-\ Here you can see two, that work: one for logs by the woodcutter and one for Miscellaneous by the perfume maker. The chart for logs doesn't contain much, just a little over 100 so it has to be refilled often. The other chart could hold a lot of flowers for the perfume maker and he can also put his perfume there, almost a little too nice and easy. I've also tried the chart for materials, I built 2 of them; one close to the glass- and brickmaker for clay and sand and one close to the stable for fertilizer, but I don't get any of them to work better than stockpiles. There's always too much dung by the glass and brickmaker and sand and clay by the greenhouse. I will keep them and see, if I come up with a way to use them.

Fifth picture

I've played a few more years after my first goals were done. Here's the largest part of the settlement. A canal is under construction, I've rebuilt the initial woodhouses, most to my favourite NMT houses, but I also had to build a few of these nice colorful houses. It's been I while since I build my first. Thank you @RedKetchup for the fun you gave us all during these years! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 21, 2018, 01:35:24 PM
Nilla,i think part of the issue with storage may be that we players see amounts and the game and coding reads by weight. can you tell how many logs a vendor with a wheelbarrow will haul?  what amounts are you getting with the mixed material cart? that fertilizer has messed with you a lot.not sure how to conquer that unless you had a barn or manure pit that just stored the fertilizer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 21, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
First I live five time zones from you and I'm active late, so there is a delay. Its not quite the north but we have sub-arctic winters. I will try to not assume so much from a few comments.  :)

I think the collected firewood could be called "brush wood", (which is defined in english as: wood collected from the forest floor to make a fire), if you use the same fuel flag then it will be work exactly as like firewood. As a separate resource it can be spawned as part of the starting conditions, the rest is simple. What is important is that it is not made a replacement for firewood, but something you get to help when you need it. You have to limit the numbers since it will be present until the end of the game, just like other spawned resources, you get some with each field/orchard or building you make. You can then play with the resource file's numbers to make it even more limited as a trade item. I would look at weight as a possible limiting factor.

I think A&E is a perfect example of how you can make the game interesting without making the actual mod content too difficult. I have written often that players should create their own challenges, like Nilla's choice to educate very early. I use things like culture, in my latest town, all fields are 15 x15, orchards 5 x 20, it gives a certain look. I once had a cult of the apple tree, creating many structures around the decorative apple tree, including a death ritual complex, (a ceremonial plaza between the church and the grave yard). You can also decide to ignore game functions, or resources, (for example no trading for iron), to make it "harder", again it the player's choice. There are so many things a player can imagine that a designer won't even think of.

I also would like this RK Ed to be as independent as possible, it would be wrong to think otherwise, and it would be a waste of so much effort. What I am trying to do is make it as accessible as possible to most players. If it evolves in a different direction, then all I ask is that it should be indicated up front. I indicated to Red some important questions that he needs to answer as a designer in the other discussion.

I'm happy to share my formulas with you, and yes they take into account many more factors, including investment, input value, and time. What I first did was to create basic values, for building cost, and work by averaging those from vanilla buildings. I think that this is as close as we can get to the mind of Luke. I use those numbers to compare what a new building or production chain adds. For example if time of production is longer than the basic value then the product of production should have more value, the same for investment, (building cost). When combined with the input value of resources you can find a fair trade value for the end result. Again there are always design and historical considerations that will help decide the final result.

What you get is a tool that can help you decide the balance of your mod. By having a formula you can play with the numbers in a scientific way that helps you avoid many of the pitfalls of an educated guess. If I change how many input resources are used, what should the output number be. Do I want to make it so educated workers make you more of a profit? If I want this to be good for trading, how long should it take to make? Or more simply how much should a resource be worth? Its a lot about added value.

I have to rewrite the presentation, but if you still want I can post it here later. I'm just afraid it might take over your blog, something I don't want to do.

I continue to like your story. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Turis on March 21, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
@Nilla Cheeky? hmm... I have to check what that word means in the dictionary.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 21, 2018, 05:04:29 PM
TURIS,don't pick on NILLA. she will curse you. she already got me. :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Turis on March 21, 2018, 05:15:32 PM
But, I agree with her. I'm a cheeky fellow. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 21, 2018, 05:36:31 PM
but i ain't rude. i am just nutz.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 21, 2018, 05:56:17 PM
Nilla,i think part of the issue with storage may be that we players see amounts and the game and coding reads by weight. can you tell how many logs a vendor with a wheelbarrow will haul?  what amounts are you getting with the mixed material cart? that fertilizer has messed with you a lot.not sure how to conquer that unless you had a barn or manure pit that just stored the fertilizer.

The chart with logs is full (99%) and holds 135 logs. The chart for misc holds 231 flowers, that's only 15%. But I don't have issues. They both work well in their different ways. First as I built them,I only let a vendor work at each for a short time. Now when I got more people, I let the vendor in the woodchart work all the time, the misc. only occasionally (it's closed now). I can't say, if it's worth the effort, to have one vendor working with logs for one woodcutter all the time. But if you have a lot of laborers, why not. There's always a lot of logs in the chart as I look,so the woodcutter has a comfortable work. Doesn't need many extra steps.

I have "conquered" to my Bannis wish of carry dung and clay around. I've built a greenhouse close to the glass- and brickmaker and will soon build a second brickmaker in the stable area. I don't need that many bricks/rooftiles yet, but at least I can change the production to the site, where the clay is at the moment. At least these are my thoughts.

I don't live in the arctic, not even in the sub arctic region. It's @brads3 who's exaggerating things. Even if we do have winters, this year even quite long, it's only about every 5th year, that our lake has ice, thick enough to walk on and snow has also became spare the last couple of decades.

Anyway, I also make my own challenges, more or less in every game. Even if many people find Banished a simple game, you can always find something interesting. Mine are rarely in the area "design". I have no talent for that and get bored after some time. More things like; without farming, trade, schools....... or as much, as fast..... often using small maps. And of cause, I do a lot of testing, to find out how new things work.

And @Denis de la Rive you can talk about your formulas here or make a thread of your own. I don't mind eather of it.

but i ain't rude. i am just nutz.

I dinīt say that!  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 21, 2018, 06:39:05 PM
Nilla,throw me a pic of the cart with the flowers and the menu.please.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 21, 2018, 07:47:08 PM
wow alot of discussion whikle i was sleeping.... / my hockey game to watch ^^

i need to go read all this again lol.

i just pop up to say, there is a big difference of size between a big tree trunk and a little flower ^^
i know the game work with weight but not size....
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 21, 2018, 07:58:14 PM
Each resource has a weight, I don't remember the exact number for logs, (it is something defined in the resource file, while the storage number is a function of a building, including houses), but if flowers is one then you can store a lot more of that, than something that takes 10 of storage for one unit. Knowing how much storage an item takes is useful when planning what you need build. If storage size needs to be balanced, Red can easily change his numbers so they store a given number of something, but you have to be careful with flags, some include things that can have very different weight values.

I understand you know how to create your own challenges, but many players don't and often expect mod makers to this for them, I was mostly writing to them, again.  ;)

Considering how the villagers want to scatter goods in all storage spaces, (something I believe is hard coded), it may be better to have specialized storage, (with a vendor) with more than one flag so all your production can be improved. I agree that having one vendor for each production site is not very good, you can have one that get logs, iron ore and other resources for an industrial cluster. That way you only add one person to 3 or 4 production sites. As an industrialist I have often done this, and it works very well.

When we consider Red's new carts, having only one flag is also useful since it can supply several buildings of the same type creating the possibility of making a factory setting for mass production. In smaller towns less useful, but with larger ones almost a necessity for things like tools, and clothing.

I think having buildings that use the same resource flags in the same area is something very interesting, but it means you need to plan for it as your village grows. If you have not accounted for such a zone, then a good old fashion urban renewal project can fix that easily.

Just wondering, do you think Red would like help creating documentation like the spreadsheets that are available for CC, I could do that if its needed.

Moi c'est la NFL, mais, c'est fini. :(

Edit: I DL the mod kit, and Red's resources, wood, (file name for logs), has a weight of 11, and flowers 1.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 22, 2018, 06:02:18 AM
Of cause I know all these things about the weight. Of cause it makes sense, that a chart of a special size can hold more flowers than logs. I only wanted to say, that this also makes the use of these  charts different, depending on its content. It's not a bad thing. You need to use your brain. That's always good. ;)

Considering how the villagers want to scatter goods in all storage spaces, (something I believe is hard coded), it may be better to have specialized storage, (with a vendor) with more than one flag so all your production can be improved. I agree that having one vendor for each production site is not very good, you can have one that get logs, iron ore and other resources for an industrial cluster. That way you only add one person to 3 or 4 production sites. As an industrialist I have often done this, and it works very well.

Yes, these stores might be useful, if they are combining the right flags, like the store for raw material from this mod, containing logs, iron and minerals. In my last game I located it together with woodchopper, lumbermill, foundry and a couple of blacksmiths. The same here, (see my last picture) even if I have decided not to produce any more tools (unless it's an emergency). But of cause one main goal in this game is to test the charts. Normally the store would have been enough in this area but I also built the chart on the place, I find it makes the most sense. There will be more charts on this map, for sure; good and bad located. I have some thoughts, what I want to try out. I'll let you know the results.

For this kind of production a vendor store works very well. But this combining of flags and material in different markets/stores with vendors might also bring problems, if you're not careful which flags are combined. You can follow my struggle with thatch, dung, clay and sand in this thread (and that's not even a combination of flags). You must also be well aware of the fact; that vendors don't steal from eachother. Material that once lands in one of these stores, stay there until it is consumed.


Just wondering, do you think Red would like help creating documentation like the spreadsheets that are available for CC, I could do that if its needed. 

Don't ask me, ask him.

But we can always ask ourselves; to what purpose? I've seen your CC sheet but not really used it. A brief look at it, just confirmed, what I self found out in my usual "looking at the menu" way. I used the sheet from Necora, as I tested his mods, but that was because his menus didn't show the raw material and I had to find out the "recipe" to test the production. Personally, if there was such a sheet to the mods I test, I don't think, I would use it, because it would take away some of my fun. It's a part of my playing; I always look in the menus, and my brain make some calculations more or less without my own conscious, sounds weird but maybe someone can understand what I mean.  :-\ ::)

To my game. I made a lot of screenshots yesterday. I'll show you some.

First picture

This dock storage spot seems to store everything. What are your thoughts here, @RedKetchup? My thought as I built it, was to have a small store close to the fisherman, where he could get rid of his catch as easy as possible. I don't really want it full of fertilizer (!) ore and wool, it's too small for that.

Second picture

My first surrender to the affinity of my Bannis to carry around the dung; a greenhouse as close to the material piles for clay and sand as possible.

Third picture

It looks a bit weird, when there's a fire at the house directly at the water well and the long line of people, get water in the lake, to put it out. (I don't really mind. It was only a funny sight, I wanted to show)

You can also see that the menus for the fences are open. (Believe it or not! ;) ) I always find this stage of the game; not boring, that's too much, but we can say; less interesting. The nice start up is done, the settlement is small and efficient, the population grows slowly, the stores use to grow much faster. Normally I use to take some nomads to "brighten things up" :-\  but since I put so much effort in getting every child educated at the beginning, I will not add uneducated now. I also want to test the changes in the production, and that becomes unreliable with some uneducated. So I thought, this is the point, when other people start to decorate their towns, so I looked at the fences and also made some seedlings.

To the seedlings: I feel a bit pity for those, who used to rely on seedlings for export. They are pretty useless for that purpose now.

To the fences: I wanted to build a fence between the canal and the small houses at the beginning of it. You can see these buildings on my first two pictures. The Bannis don't want their children to fall into the canal. But they have to go on and keep a close eye on them, because I failed. Unfortunately there's no room for the normal fence (road and canal tiles) and if I build the ghosted fence, it looked so stupid, when people took a short cut through it, that I demolished it again. I also tried a combination of normal and ghosted fences, but that didn't work either, the fence parts are located on different places of the tile and I can't combine them in a way that looks good. I have no big experience here, does anyone know how to make it? (red marks on the first picture) (My own advice would be; not to build that tight, if you want to decorate, but that's too late here)

It's also a bit weird, that the normal fence costs 2 lumber to build, the ghosted fence nothing.

Fourth picture

This is for @brads3. The menu of the chart for miscellaneous. I also took the opportunity to show the content in my trading port. It looks, as if I trade a lot. The truth is; I don't. I've decided to buy tools. The main reason, is to get rid of the perfume in a way that make sense. Sometimes I buy some extra logs, a few stones or some clay; using perfume as payment. I buy a few apples, just to be able to produce some pie to put in the trading port and buy more apples. Stupid? Yes!  :-[

But Iīm proud, that i thought about not hiding the nice store sign with a big balcony on the second floor. :)

Fifth picture


My second surrender to my Bannis; the kiln in the greenhouse area.

Sixth picture

Industrial area, very much asleep.

Edit: Iīve changed the  second picture
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 22, 2018, 06:41:44 AM
cant really control your bannies hehe
as i often said , 20 times, if we could link the resource itself instead the flag.... like Caesar IV stockpiles.... that would be the paradise LOL

Denis:
if you want to make a spreadsheet ... go ahead ^^ just say what you need :)

about your canal dock and fertilizer... it seems to be the closest storage place. i think thats ok. your cart vendors can go get them if need those. thats still close(near)


about water well, they cant be used for firefighting. i tried, if i put both feature in same time(produce a resource + firefighting), it crash asap i lay it down on the ground.


edit:
btw tommorow i ll read everything back and do a huge post to answer all yesterday discussion :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 22, 2018, 10:35:23 AM
the dock storage is useful for the trade post to unload items that you buy from merchants.i actually am using it to store lumber from NECORA's sawmill.the quicker the trade post is unloaded ,the sooner he can restock supplies to trade out.
   how is the space in the markets? is it working reasonable to you or are they filling to quickly?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 22, 2018, 11:02:35 AM
Some more wonderful images. I have seen strange things in Banished before when it comes to fire fighting, we just don't know how the villagers choose their water source, and recently it was discovered that certain other functions are used. Have you seen that the sand pit in kid's granny park was used as a water source? Its very funny.

I think what you are doing with storage is most likely the best solution, since as Red wrote, you have to use flags. Even if you try to make flags with only one resource, you will have compatibility problems, and we all know Red want a maximum of compatibility.

About making documents: it could be a spread sheet, it could be a wiki like list with images, about as technical as you want. What I have discovered with CC is that it helps answer many questions that can plague a designer, taking up valuable design and graphics time. Some players like to micro-manage, but lack your skill, others are obsessed with numbers and want to call anything they don't understand a bug. I have helped many players who could simply have looked at a chart to get the answer to a question.

It can also help both the designer and the testers, if they have the coded numbers, that way you can estimate better the impact of things like distance. For a designer it can be a quick reference to the exact numbers, when a question of balance is examined, or you want to look at something, without opening the rsc files.

Finally it can help less skilled players understand things like storage flags, production chains, and other factors like fuel usage. This could also help to balance the difficulty, (interest for you, but not for everyone), with accessibility to wider group of players.

Documentation in written form can also explain how production chains work, what buildings you should build, and what are the special features of a mod are. We have here a mod that is growing and is far more complex than a few extra houses, or copies of vanilla buildings. As this is a WIP, it has to be a living document that evolves so changes can be added as they are made.

I will PM you later this week, (going to the doctor today), Red and see what we can come up with.  :)

About seedlings, I think that we don't need them as a trading cheat like they were before, we have some very nice trading options, that were not available when the original version was made, I also remember Red's books.  ;)

Looking at your image, I don't think a fence will fit. I agree that having people walk trough a fence is not visually pleasing, I would have done the same thing. I think ghost structures not needing resources, or building time, makes it easier to place them where the villagers can't go, or can get stuck, its a necessary evil for certain decorations. Otherwise it calls to those who are too cheep to use decorative items if they cost resources. They are possibly technical reasons too.

Have you tried a edible/protein flag storage near your fisherman?

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 22, 2018, 04:34:57 PM
About ghosted fences...I like to combine them with Necora's empty tiles mod. It's a nice workaround.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 22, 2018, 04:54:42 PM
about your canal dock and fertilizer... it seems to be the closest storage place. i think that's OK. your cart vendors can go get them if need those. that's still close(near)

No, there are closer stores to the stables. But there aren't many stores where the Bannis can store fertilizer. So this one makes them very happy!  >:( ;) I have been very careful and only built specialized stockpiles, so except this dock, there are only a pile and a chart close to the kiln and glassworks, who also need materials and the same close to the stables/greenhouses. If I clear land I sometimes build a general stockpile close, to make it easier. If I forget to demolish this pile, fertilizer is stored there after a short time, even if it's far away. Not this much but always some.

the dock storage is useful for the trade post to unload items that you buy from merchants.

Sounds like an excellent idea...............if not the dock is full of dung.  :P

Sorry guys, if I'm giving the impression, that I'm very annoyed about this difficult fertilizer. But the truth is; I'm rather amused. :) First I find it funny, that it's just dung. It wouldn't have been the same, if this had been beans or lumber. Second I like, when not everything goes smooth without problems to solve. The fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain works good, even with these minor problems.

 
how is the space in the markets? is it working reasonable to you or are they filling to quickly?
Which markets do you mean? All I use work very well. Unless I've closed them, there's a lot of goods; the right goods. They fill fast. I have a lot of small stores, mostly with one vendor. At a few, with many houses around there are 2 or 3.

Thanks @Denis de la Rive; The pictures are beautiful because the buildings are beautiful, I build with focus on efficiency, not design, where I have no skills. But maybe efficiency, has a beauty of its own.

And yes, I've seen the sand used for firefighting. :)

So, if you two are making some kind of documentation and I can help, just say what I can do.

Have you tried a edible/protein flag storage near your fisherman?

I don't think there are any specialized food stores in this mod, and that's good. I wouldn't have used them anyway. Stores with only one category of food are sources for bad health, especially those with vendors. A Banni who lives close to such a store, more or less only gets this one food category. I want to see my fishermen fishing, not on the road on their way to the herbalist. 

About ghosted fences...I like to combine them with Necora's empty tiles mod. It's a nice workaround.

I need some explanation.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: irrelevant on March 22, 2018, 04:58:23 PM
I think one log weighs 11, in vanilla anyway. Watch a chopper, he'll pick 9 logs to take to his workplace.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 22, 2018, 05:16:47 PM
@Nilla

On your last pic I see 2 tiles available for Bannies to walk. The road tile in front of the houses and the tile on the side of the canal. If it was me and I wanted to build a fence I'd either use a regular fence on the side of the canal or a ghosted fence and then placed Necora's empty non walkable tile on the same tiles. Except on those leading to the fishing and storage docks and the bridge.

But I don't think that a fence on the canal is really necessary. You're not building a town in Australia, right? (Aussies are crazy with their health and safety regs). Think of it like Amsterdam where they treat you as an adult...Is your bike wet? Well, you're on the wrong side of the canal mate.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 22, 2018, 07:51:07 PM
the difference about ghosted and non ghosted fences and the fact one cost nothing while the other cost something.....

the thing is when you make something ghosted, it is the fact it needs 'to have no tiles to belong to', so since there is nowhere the bannies can drop the "2 lumber" because it doesnt have a specific tile, then the ghosted fence doesnt get its material and doesnt get built. it need to be "instant" as you click on the ground, with no cost, with no work.

or at least i didnt found a way to do it ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 23, 2018, 02:02:41 AM
MegaMod Deco Pack has some ghosted items that require building material.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 23, 2018, 04:41:04 AM
@Nilla
But I don't think that a fence on the canal is really necessary. You're not building a town in Australia, right? (Aussies are crazy with their health and safety regs). Think of it like Amsterdam where they treat you as an adult...Is your bike wet? Well, you're on the wrong side of the canal mate.

Iīm afraid we are more like the Aussies in these matters here in Sweden. When I think about it and see the result; a lot of talking, no fence, Iīm pretty sure this is Sweden. The children playing at the canal all have life jackets and helmets in bright colors with sufficent reflectors. The fact, that the fence isnīt built, shows that a government authority was involved. The important thing for them, is to have a nice piece of paper with the right headlines, that says: "We have a canal. Thereīs a risk, that someone falls into it. To prevent this, we can build a fence. If someone should fall in it despite of this, we can put up life savers." No inspector is interested in looking at the reality; if a fence is built or not. Believe me, I have had very similar experince in my work. (Perhaps I must tell, to save the reputation of Swedish authorities, that local authorities are often more "down on earth")

Iīll show you some pictures from yesterdayīs playing.

First picture

The doctor, who works at the barber shop doesnīt want any " dirty contagious people" in his clean shop. But all the same, he seems to be skilled. We had Typhus in this area, some people got sick, but no one died. No one visited the clinic, so this barber confirmed his good reputation. I donīt know; fresh air and a fresh haircut may do the trick! ;)

Second picture

Oh no!!!  :o

Third picture

Good luck, bad luck, I don't know. Only 3 buildings were destroyed; a ground floor house, a fisher dock and a trading port with a lot of goods, but it killed maybe 40 people, many of them children.  :'(

First I couldn't understand how this could be possible. How can a tornado, that only touched the edge of the settlement, kill so many people? I realized, most of them must have been idlers at the trading port. Children idle a lot, and I think this explains why so many of the dead were children.

Fourth picture


The Town. I didn't want to build any cemeteries but after I've built this lovely cathedral, I found one belonged there. But I didn't plan to fill it in one strike.  :(

Fifth picture

I've solved the "dung issue" of the canal dock, at least temporarily. It was almost "dung free" but the amount starts to increase again.

First I tried to put vendors in those charts for materials I had, but not much happened. They were already quite well filled with fertilizer, clay and sand. But when I built this new chart (with a close greenhouse) the vendor went to the dock and got 400 fertilizer in one strike!  ;D It will last for one greenhouse for some time. I told you; I like to find solutions to small (and big) problems. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 23, 2018, 01:58:10 PM
When I asked about the fisherman I was considering a specialized storage, not a vendor staffed structure like a cart. I will have to reorganize my Banished files to use RK Ed if we are going to create documentation.  :)

Like I suspected for ghost technical issues, as for MM, it an older file, and includes CC, who if I remember are built on road squares, I could be wrong. I would ask, what is more important, ghost that cost something, or more nice buildings? RK Ed is like banished, time is the most important factor, time for graphics, time for code, time for questions, time for documentation, and time for raiding, (or hockey).

I can't see how to make a fence without a ghost, its road, or canal side, you could wait for a tornado, and move everything one square!  ;)

I was thinking about dung, its custom 7, (unless Red changed that), like the other RK Ed items, it might be worth looking at where this flag appears in all the storage structures. If you change that, it could control better where it is stored, if you use vanilla, you get some, if you use RK Ed you can control where it gets stored. I know you are testing carts, but you have found something that needs to be considered.

I think the barber is doing exactly what he should, historically it the barber-surgeon, which is exactly why Red created him as a health feature, it adds some flavour to the building, I like it very much.

The problem with tornadoes is that the villagers don't try to escape, they continue to as normal. I don't know why Luke did not program for this, it might have been too difficult to create the correct lines of code.

I must question your plan not create any graveyards in your village, I have seen it have a large impact on happiness, and when many people die the survivors can remain at 1 or less until they die. You may find that the villagers will idle a lot more now that they can't morn properly. In your village I would consider looking at making happiness more important, you may have a drastic drop in production fro all the villagers after such a loss. I know its hard to understand happiness, but is is part of how the villagers are programmed, and so you must also try to manage it. Strangely I feel sorry for your people.

With the loss of so many children do you think your future looks bleak? You may have a drastic drop in population if your survivors are not young. Are you considering accepting nomads, this would really change you goal of having an educated population.

I do think that simply efficient can be beautiful, decoration are important, buy as you say sometimes beautiful builds are enough.  :)

If I can agree with Red as to what documentation we can create, I will certainly want your help, it could by as simple as in game pictures, tricks and advice, or comments on what I have created. I am a native english speaker so I can easily write what will be needed, and I was the first person who worked on the wiki for CC, so I know what players will need. Someone has already started to comment on that in a post in the other conversation about RK Ed.

If anyone has difficulty understanding what I write please tell me, I have a little experience with translation, and teaching english as second language so I can try to simplify my comments.

This is a long post, so I will not discuss balance formulas today, and I need to think about what I want to write to Red.  :)




Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 23, 2018, 02:24:08 PM
when there is a tornado, you need to stop time and think quick. you need to look where is and where it is going. and then cancel all jobs in the possible paths the tornado can take and send all people to go cut trees/everything in the complete opposite direction. kids will also mostly kinda follow, they love to see events and they will go near the new jobs and watch.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 23, 2018, 02:50:07 PM
Wonderful trick.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 23, 2018, 04:34:15 PM
When I asked about the fisherman I was considering a specialized storage, not a vendor staffed structure like a cart.
Of cause, better than specialized markets with vendor, but I'm not so fond of these either. Have you looked into the home of the closest fisherman where you use such a store? Unless a market is very close (inside a market circle isn't enough) I guess it's fish.

I was thinking about dung, its custom 7, (unless Red changed that), like the other RK Ed items, it might be worth looking at where this flag appears in all the storage structures. If you change that, it could control better where it is stored, if you use vanilla, you get some, if you use RK Ed you can control where it gets stored. I know you are testing carts, but you have found something that needs to be considered.

The custom number I don't know, but it counts as material together with sand and clay, stored on stockpiles and also unfortunately on the dock storage of the canal. But as Red says, since each material can't be stored separate, these problems will always have to be dealt with. And in this case; producing glass and bricks together with the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain on several places needs a lot of "dealing" ;)

I think the barber is doing exactly what he should, historically it the barber-surgeon, which is exactly why Red created him as a health feature, it adds some flavour to the building, I like it very much.
Me, too! :)

 
I must question your plan not create any graveyards in your village, I have seen it have a large impact on happiness, and when many people die the survivors can remain at 1 or less until they die. You may find that the villagers will idle a lot more now that they can't morn properly. In your village I would consider looking at making happiness more important, you may have a drastic drop in production fro all the villagers after such a loss. I know its hard to understand happiness, but is is part of how the villagers are programmed, and so you must also try to manage it. Strangely I feel sorry for your people. .

Did you believe I didn't have any thoughts about this? ;) But maybe you're right, I do have some kind of aversion against graveyards: Ugly, need space and stone. I only build them, when they do have a big impact: In a real time aging game. If I don't build any new houses and expect, that there will be a lot of adult children living at home. Or maybe like here; when it looks like a graveyard belongs on that spot.

In a game like this, where i try to expand as fast as I can, there will be no big loss on happiness. There will be some unhappy old people, who have lost a wife or husband of old age, but they are also old and will not live long. Every young person can move out early, so there will not be many of them, who lose a parent because of old age, before they can move out. There will be a few unhappy children, who lose a parent by accident, but since they usually move out early, I hope they can recover at least some of their happiness. Besides, so far I had no miners and no stonecutter and accidental deaths are rare. I'm expanding with many mines at the moment, so maybe I should overthink the graveyard thing. Good that you reminded me! :)

With the loss of so many children do you think your future looks bleak? You may have a drastic drop in population if your survivors are not young. Are you considering accepting nomads, this would really change you goal of having an educated population..

No!
No!

If I can agree with Red as to what documentation we can create, I will certainly want your help, it could by as simple as in game pictures, tricks and advice, or comments on what I have created. I am a native English speaker so I can easily write what will be needed, and I was the first person who worked on the wiki for CC, so I know what players will need. Someone has already started to comment on that in a post in the other conversation about RK Ed.

I think it's wise to start a new thread about this subject. Easier to find for everyone.

If anyone has difficulty understanding what I write please tell me, I have a little experience with translation, and teaching English as second language so I can try to simplify my comments.

This is interesting news! Pedagogic skills in English as second language (Maybe I'm a hopeless case, English is my third language). I would be happy, if you could tell me, when I make really bad mistakes, not every little grammatical error, but important things. I want to be better, need to be better. It looks like I'm getting an English speaking son in law! :)

This is a long post, so I will not discuss balance formulas today, and I need to think about what I want to write to Red.  :).

 :D ;D If you find your post long, what are mine?  :D ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 23, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
It is great that we can share ideas. I find your English is not that bad, it can be understood easily. Sometimes I think you may confuse words that are similar like in your latest post, "cause" for "of course", they can sound similar but are written differently. Words in English can also have many meanings, and some expressions can be complicated too. English as a Germanic language has been greatly simplified by the Norman conquest, (a french speaking people), who could not understand it easily. It has lost most of its Germanic features to become very much dependent on context, (word order, and placement).

When I write about "custom 7", that is the name of the flag used in the code. I will try to indicate words like this better. Other materials may have other flag names, so you have to see what they are. Tools is tool, firewood is fuel. So if you make a cart for dung and tools, you will use in the code, the flags tool, and custom 7. You must then remember that flowers have the same flag as dung, so you will have those also in this cart. If you add fuel, then you also get firewood. There are so many variations you can make. I just want you understand how it works, if you know this please tell me.

About the graveyards, and happiness, I know you thought about this, I only ask if this is a good idea. I was also worried that so many deaths in one event could have very bad effect on your village. I am happy that you feel your village will survive.

I do not want to discuss what type of information will be in the documentation here, that I will do with Red. I do not think a public discussion is needed yet. If I need your help we can also exchange in private.

I always place a specialized storage building close to food producing, so that the worker has a short distance to travel after finishing his work. I let the vendors carry it to market. I think it is better to have houses near a market, instead of closer to the workplace. You save more time because going to the market,(for fuel, food, clothing, and tools) will happen more often than carrying production for storage, or getting goods for production.

What you post brings up interesting questions about how the game works, and how you can play, or how it is different from what I do. I like it. :)

As for long posts, it is after all your blog.  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: galensgranny on March 24, 2018, 02:52:20 AM
Regarding graveyards, Nilla, I often add ghosted bushes to make it seem more like a park.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 24, 2018, 03:55:54 AM
It is great that we can share ideas. I find your English is not that bad, it can be understood easily. Sometimes I think you may confuse words that are similar like in your latest post, "cause" for "of course", they can sound similar but are written differently. Words in English can also have many meanings, and some expressions can be complicated too. English as a Germanic language has been greatly simplified by the Norman conquest, (a french speaking people), who could not understand it easily. It has lost most of its Germanic features to become very much dependent on context, (word order, and placement).

English is a difficult language. I know, I make these kind of mistakes. I've mainly learned English by listening to music and watching movies. This makes it's hard to know, where to use cause/course, than/then, its/it's...... Of course (!), I had English in school. We even had to learn 3 different foreign languages, if we wanted a highschool degree. I'm more the "math" person, who never understood, why anyone actually had to learn the clear and obvious math and physics. Foreign grammar without any kind of logic was a torment. So please, if you see some important mistakes, tell me. I want to improve

Languages do evolve, taking influences from many different places, nothing wrong about that. I'm sure, I wouldn't understand a word, if I met one of my viking ancestors. ;)

When I write about "custom 7", that is the name of the flag used in the code. I will try to indicate words like this better. Other materials may have other flag names, so you have to see what they are. Tools is tool, firewood is fuel. So if you make a cart for dung and tools, you will use in the code, the flags tool, and custom 7. You must then remember that flowers have the same flag as dung, so you will have those also in this cart. If you add fuel, then you also get firewood. There are so many variations you can make. I just want you understand how it works, if you know this please tell me.

I'm pretty confident, in knowing how these things work. Maybe even a little better than you; dung and flowers don't have the same custom flag, neither "custum7" nor anything else. @RedKetchup doesn't use these words in his mod. He uses the word "Materials" containing, dung, clay, sand and maybe something more, I haven't used yet. He's using the word "Miscellaneous", containing flowers, seedlings, beeswax.** He's using words like "Forged", "Precious", "Construction". This is the terminology I'm going to use, when I talk about this mod.  Among modders, if they discuss how to "label" a product, I'm sure it makes sense to talk about "Custom"XYZ. Not here, it only helps to confuse people.

I do not want to discuss what type of information will be in the documentation here, that I will do with Red. I do not think a public discussion is needed yet. If I need your help we can also exchange in private.

I agree and disagree. ;)

I find, a discussion about what people want to see in such information, should be held as a public discussion in its own thread. How to make it is a matter, that's better discussed private.

I always place a specialized storage building close to food producing, so that the worker has a short distance to travel after finishing his work. I let the vendors carry it to market. I think it is better to have houses near a market, instead of closer to the workplace. You save more time because going to the market,(for fuel, food, clothing, and tools) will happen more often than carrying production for storage, or getting goods for production.

Yes, this sounds like a good strategy, to keep the health up, if you want to use the specialized stores. But I prefere to build stores and homes close to production sites, if I can't combine both. My experience is, that people get home more often to eat and get warm, than they go to a market to get supply. It may happen, that a general barn close to a fisher contain only fish, but that's rare. Bannis like to spread their goods. Sometimes you like it, sometimes not. It's another thing, that makes Banished interesting.

What you post brings up interesting questions about how the game works, and how you can play, or how it is different from what I do. I like it. :)
As for long posts, it is after all your blog.  ;)

I like these discussions. We all have our different ways to play. There's nothing right, nothing wrong. (Wrong! There's a lot of wrong ways, that may kill your population ;) but not if you have some experience). I still learn new things, I try different approaches and like to get things to think about and try out. :)

**Which is the right way to express this: "he uses" or "he's using"?

when there is a tornado, you need to stop time and think quick. you need to look where is and where it is going. and then cancel all jobs in the possible paths the tornado can take and send all people to go cut trees/everything in the complete opposite direction. kids will also mostly kinda follow, they love to see events and they will go near the new jobs and watch.


Clever. I will try this by the next tornado.

Regarding graveyards, Nilla, I often add ghosted bushes to make it seem more like a park.


Good idea. I remember I once made a settlement with very much decorations, completely different from my normal way. I put a lot of ghosted flowers on the graveyard. It was a bit tricky to place them on the right spot. I also remember, that I had some genetic modified tulips and daffodils, larger than the tombstones and the Bannis idling on the graveyard! ;)

I also saw that @RedKetchup plans to add his "Creepy Graveyard" to this mod. It looks great. :)

I wanted to tell you about my game, it has taken a slightly new direction, but that has to be later.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 24, 2018, 04:17:14 AM

**Which is the right way to express this: "he uses" or "he's using"?


i am not sure but i think you should say "he uses" when you think it will happends more than once or even all the time :P
"he is using" when you think it is only once or there will be an end to this at some point :P


like example: he uses this all the time, he is using it for the moment.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 24, 2018, 09:55:09 AM
i am not sure but i think you should say "he uses" when you think it will happends more than once or even all the time :P
"he is using" when you think it is only once or there will be an end to this at some point :P

like example: he uses this all the time, he is using it for the moment.

But in this case, did you use it once, when you decided to make it this way or should I think; it's this way all the time?  :P These grammatical things confuse me. I use my feeling, it's probably 50% right 50% wrong. But I hope still understandable. ;)


First picture

I gave up the fence at the canal and thought instead, I could build it around the church/graveyard, but I found it too unimpressive for this. I discovered a small error. The color is wrong in some of the texts: The green is called white and the black yellow.

Second picture

Here is a ugly little thing, marked red. I don't really think it can be fixed by you @RedKetchup, by making this piece different. It's more an advice to other players, who want to build a canal.

I set these canal pieces on a spot of the map, where the ground isn't perfectly flat. Normally, you can fix this with the levelling tool, after the canal is built, but it doesn't work at this "joker" piece, where the canal is widened from 4 to 6 tiles. (Of course the canal should be as narrow as possible at the mill. We need the water to run fast, to turn the wheel). You can avoid such ugly pieces, if you level the ground, before you set the canal pieces. I should have remembered this from earlier canals, I've built.

Third picture

I have decided to test the jewelery chain. Not like I did in my first game in this test series, when I built these very nice looking buildings and made a few gemstones from the few gems I could find or buy in one trading port. But most of the time, these sites stood closed.

Normally I wouldn't have liked one more production chain to produce another export product. But this is ingenius! I laughed a bit @Denis de la Rive, when I read the first part of what you wrote in Redīs developing thread; that you thought this was overpowered. Theory is good, but not if you don't have the whole picture.;)

Anyhow, my ambition is to produce enough gems, gold and silver to run the gemcutter and jeweler continuously. This will need several random mines, I don't know yet how many. It will also need a strategy to process the other products from this mine in a way that makes sense. I also have/will build some trading ports here to support this business. I can say nothing about how it works yet, but it will be fun.

Since I will need a lot of miners, I also need a lot of houses in this area. Bricks, rooftiles, glass and lumber are produced in another part of the settlement. Not so far away, that I wanted to build more production sites here, but I thought a store for building materials would be perfect. But I forgot, how I flooded this place with fodder, one of these products that are spread to all possible storage. My strategy to secure, that all horses have enough food close, is overproduction, that I have tested here. But as many other things, there are also disadvantages, as we can see in this picture and in the last.

Fourth picture

I don't know, if I should show this picture. I was so proud, that I've built this canal without mistakes; no piece with the wrong direction of the water, no bridges forgotten, every piece in the right position............. except this last one.  >:(

In the background, the mining town grows slowly.

Fifth picture

Here it is now. I don't think this number of mines is enough, but we will see. This experiment has just started.

There are some menus open for you guys.

@RedKetchup, if you look at the menus from all of my canal docks, you can see, they mostly contain "stock pile stuff". Is this really good? I think I have enough empty stockpiles, where it could be stored, still it looks like this. I've built them to store fish from the fisher, flour from the mill and maybe to be used like @brads3 suggested, for fast emptying of the trading port. I will try to solve this problem here by building some more stores for raw material with vendors, but I would prefere, that only normal "barn goods", can be stored here.

@Denis de la Rive, the town hall menu is for you. You can see, that the happiness graph doesn't look too bad. I have decided not to build any graveyards (except the one I have) despite all miners and stonecutter. I want to see, how much the happiness drops.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 24, 2018, 10:44:31 AM
that is normal. the terrain along the river pushes the piece over.mine the water plane was short so i had to terraform and push out into the lake farther. even though i have different items than you,my dock storages are full too.not sure why the bannies like to store there.i used a vendor to pull back into some markets.just swap him around a few times.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 24, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
You're lucky @Nilla. That meteor shower just narrowly missed all your houses. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 24, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
You're lucky @Nilla. That meteor shower just narrowly missed all your houses. ;)
Sorry for being stupid, but I donīt understand one thing. But if you say it; Iīm lucky! ???  :-[  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 24, 2018, 11:51:12 AM
I count five impact craters on your last picture. So close. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 24, 2018, 12:07:45 PM
 :D ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 24, 2018, 01:16:39 PM
He uses is a statement of fact, like it is blue, he is using is an action, like running, he used is an action in the past, like using a tool yesterday, he used to, is an action in the past, (mostly after it has ended), something he has stopped doing, like he made tools yesterday, but now he is a vendor, he is used to, something you are comfortable with, like a old wool sweater. Hope this is helpful.  :)

I again want you to understand that your mistakes a very minor. Where we live, Red and me we speak french, but North America is an english dominated so we have to learn english. My schooling is in both so I understand how a language can be difficult to learn.

When we discuss storage, flags are important to understand, sometimes they are different from what is written in the game toolbars. What is in a tool bar is to help the player understand what a resource is in simple words, not exactly what it is called in the code. Using these types of exact descriptions would only cause confusion. I have looked at what Red has made public, about his resources, and unless it has changed they have the same flag, custom 7. That is why flowers and fertilizer are placed in the same storage place.

I was thinking about the lack of specialized storage, (meaning for barns, and carts), a simple solution could be to use a version of the carts without a vendor. Instead of a market, they are a barn. It would work like the specialized stockpiles, but with only one flag for things that don't go there.

As I think about documentation, I have a good idea of what is needed. Again I have not discussed it with Red, so this is just an idea. You could have something like a spreadsheet, or charts similar to what has been done by CC, not a copy, where you can find information like Red posted in his answer about jewelry. This kind of document can help many people, and can be customized to fit what is best. If you take the raw numbers and make them public then many people will be happy. What it becomes is a slightly more detailed version of the tool tip, but all in one place.

I also think you could make something like a catalog where you explain the meaning of things like flags, production chains, and starting conditions. You can also present your choices, and why you made things work in your own, (the designer's) way. Here I am also thinking of "The North", since Tom Sawyer has written he is also interested in making some documentation. A simple file with images, (PDF), that show how things work, and explains things like; which cart will accept what resource. Thinking again of jewelry, you could show the production from start to end, again with examples. This can also help to understand how to create resources that need more than one thing, or use more than one building.

Where you can explain concepts like burn, how warm a house is. You can also explain how to make things so that it is easier for someone new to enjoy the mod. It can also have a section on tricks, and advice from experts like you. As I look at your canal problem, I could have written in the document, "sometimes it is better to use the levelling tool before you place the canal", or "it happens that some pieces will not always fit perfectly". If there are situations that a designer can't fix those can also be included, like "villagers will often walk over a ghosted fence, this a function of how ghosted objects work in the game, and it can not be avoided, or changed by a mod maker".

If you wanted to you could also show why building like the barber have a health feature. As you see I have a good idea of what can be done.  :)

I agree there is no best way to play, only a bad way when everybody dies.  ;)

I hope happiness is not a problem for you, but how long has it been since the tornado?

So more on balance:

I think you must account for all the factors when creating a balance formula, the cost of the building, the cost of the resources used and the time involved in production. This will give you and added value factor you can use to see how much a produced good is worth. This is often the cause of many problems of balance. Some you can fix by controlling resource rarity, others by playing with the numbers.

Terms: investment is the cost of building the production site, work cycle is how long it takes to make the product, input is what you need to make it, value is the trade cost of your input resources, output is what you get from the production. All values except time are in final trade value, for vanilla, logs 2, iron 5, stone 7. Custom resources use those programmed by the mod maker, for example flowers would be 1.

I will explain what I did so I don't have to create too many charts. I made an average of the values for vanilla buildings that are similar to what we are looking at. If you look at the building you can link them in groups that are similar, like production, mining, civics, housing. Some things like fields and pastures are important, and you can't change how they work. I also think that the way hunting/gathering/fishing work in the game makes them not important to these calculation.

I think you can use the following buildings as a examples of production, taylor, blacksmith, wood chopper, brewery. Originally I had included the herbalist, but it fits better with the gathering group. This gives us B, (the average vanilla build cost) = 370, and K, (the average of vanilla total work) = 21, but you can also add mining when the work in similar to that, KM = 70.

If you wanted to you could include things like mines and gathering but I feel such building work create instead of transform, so should only be used if the building works in a similar way.

With this information we can now look at what is being added. You need the building cost, = C, and total work of the new building = W. You also need the input number, = I, the input value, = V and output of the production = O.

We then create a formula.

Investment is: IN = C ũ B

Work cycle is: CY = W ũ K

Then final trade value is FT= ((IN+CY -1) x (IxV)) ũ O

As an example something from CC, since I don't have the numbers from RK Ed.

Glass, building cost: 54 logs, 24 stone, 10 iron = 326, time (16 x 8) = 128

Input goods and value: firewood (8 x 4), sand (25 x 1) = 57, output uneducated is 7 glass.

So IN is 326 ũ 370 = .88

So CY = 128 ũ 21 = 6.09, or CY = 128 ũ 70 = 1.83

So O = 7

Considering how much work is need to make glass we go with KM instead of K

Then we have FT = ((.88+1.83 -1) x (32+25)) ũ 7, or (1.71x57) ũ 7 = 13,92, or 14.

With this information you can now adjust you production chain so it fit what you want it to do. You must remember this is a tool to help the mod maker see how his additions fit in with the basic values of the game. If you change work, input, or building cost then it will change the final result.  If you have a final number you can then change the other factor to get what you want. A simple spread can be programmed to do all the work. Having something like this makes it better than having to guess, and constantly change your numbers.

There is a logic to idea that things that are harder to make, or have a large investment will be rare, and traders will pay more for them.

I have used uneducated output because I think education should add value, unless it is something simple like wood chopping. Again a mod maker can adjust for this with in his code, like having the same output for both types of workers.

I had also started something similar for housing, but it need more work.

There you have it a bit complicated, but once you understand it, easy to use.

Impact craters? this place really is cursed.  ;)

I'm happy you like our discussions.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 24, 2018, 04:34:43 PM
Yes I like our discussions! But I really don't know what to say! So, I will simply speak straight forward and ask you directly:
 
Don't you read what I write? I could understand that. I know, I write too long. But in that case, please don't pretend you do and tell me. Or is my English so bad, that it's hard to understand? You just said, it wasn't and I don't take you for a liar, so I guess this is not the case.

So, it looks like you think I'm stupid. I can assure you, I'm not! If I say repeatedly, that dung and flowers don't belong to the same "flag" in this mod and are not stored at the same place, they aren't! None of my "complains" about the dung, say anything about flowers. None of all my pictures from the stores with dung and fodder show any flowers. Maybe that could also be a clue.

It seems, that you're a clever and helpful guy, and I have a friendly advice; play a game with RKEd before you start giving advice and explain things. I guess, this would be nicer for everyone, including yourself and bring far better quality to your advice.

I will answer more tomorrow, if you still want to. I know you're a proud Fresh Canadian, so I might take a risk by speaking this clear. I really don't want to offend you and I hope I haven't.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 24, 2018, 05:16:22 PM
euh......

flowers are custom7 = Miscellaneous
dung is now custom4 = Materials (the change happended when Nilla asked to be stored outside instead of next of the wheat and the watermelons ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: galensgranny on March 24, 2018, 10:22:36 PM
Quote from: Nilla
**Which is the right way to express this: "he uses" or "he's using"?

@Nilla,
They are both correct, but one could be a better choice in some cases. 

Quote
He uses the word "Materials" containing, dung, ...

"He uses" is fine there.  I would replace "containing" with "to include".

Quote
He's using the word "Miscellaneous", containing flowers, ...

That is fine also.  The full meaning is "He is using the word "miscellaneous" [for his mods] to include ...."  Of course you don't need to write in "for his mods" because it was clear that the discussion is about his mods.

Probably it would be ideal to stick to one format for both sentences to be consistent, but this is not an advanced English test, so it's all good.

They are both being used as verbs.  He uses, he is using- he does both!  Uses it currently, and used it previously, and apparently will continue to use.   ;D

English is my native language.  American English, that is. 

Your English is really good! I am amazed that you know three languages!

Regarding the detailed technical talk, I suppose it is fine to get into such extreme analysis of the game, with formulas and all, but that seems to be a bit much to me.  I'll wait for the simple summary of what is best for what purpose.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 25, 2018, 02:43:24 PM
I used the files Red shared, so that is why I made the mistake, He should update them here, http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0).

Sometimes things change, and it is not always easy to follow every single little change in every mod. There are so many and my focus is not on a single mod, or mod maker.

I do not think you are stupid, I write from the information I have. I understand you are angry, but I could say the same when it comes to the way information is shared. I think some of this could be solved with better documentation.

It would be difficult for you to offend me since I respect you very much, and so that you know I like it when people write honestly about what they think, and feel.

Actually its Anglo-Québecois for me.  ;)

English is a contextual language, meaning that words are understood by looking at the words that come with it. An example is bear/bare which can mean many things, and when spoken sounds the same. Bare means: without or nude, bear means: to carry, to endure, (emotions, or burden), or a large furry mammal. It is by looking at the the words that are nearby that you understand which one is correct. For example. " a bare/bear...", needs to answer the question what with the next words,(even more so if spoken since bear/bare sound the same). Is it a wall, leg, or something big and dangerous? Other languages use grammar to help you understand meaning, old english use to be like that, how a word ended was a clue to things like gender. French is very much a gender dependant language, with things like un/une. While in english you get a simple the. From what I understand of Japanese, the inflection you use can change the meaning of the spoken word. Chinese has something like 15 different versions, but since their writing system uses symbols for words not sounds every chinese person can read it easily, even if they can't understand a different spoken language.

So getting back to bear/bare, the words before and after will determine what you are talking/writing about. This is why people have some problems learning it as a second language. The simplicity of the grammar comes at the cost of being confusing for a non native speaker. We are taught to ask, (always think): who, what, when, where, and, how, when we read, it becomes a reflex, so we do not think about it.

You should understand that this makes it easier for readers to understand what you write, it is simple to ignore the grammar mistakes if you are clear in what you write. People will understand that bear/bare means the animal from words like fur, meat, or carrying from things like tools, far, or burden with death, or pain. You are very good at making the context, (meaning), clear, the rest is not that important.

I hope you still like me, I am sorry if I made you feel bad.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 25, 2018, 03:03:12 PM
I used the files Red shared, so that is why I made the mistake, He should update them here, http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0).



sorry fixed, added new fertilizer that goes inside a stockpile
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Denis de la Rive on March 25, 2018, 03:50:26 PM
 :) ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 26, 2018, 05:35:47 AM
I'm glad @Denis de la Rive, that you're not offended. I'm not mad at you, never was. But you must know; I'm an engineer and all my professional life, I've worked in "male structures". I made a decision early in my career, that I would not tolerate any kind of "master suppression techniques" (I think you call it in English); attempts to hold you down, not listening, make you invisible, ridiculous,,,, because you're a girl (could be immigrant, disabled, homosexual,,,,,,as well). I decided to always speak up and take the consequences. It has caused me some trouble but more respect. I have developed a quite sensible "bell", that rings, at the first signs. And this bell rang, as I read these entries; as it seemed, that you didn't listen to what i said.

I thank you, Denis as well as @galensgranny in your attempts to teach me some of this difficult English language. Swedish is a small language, we need to learn foreign languages, if we want to communicate with more people, than our fellow countrymen. I have lived many years in Germany. My husband is German and normally we speak German at home. He knows Swedish as well but we made a decision, when we moved to Sweden 20 years ago with 2 school children, that we would go on and speak only German at home. We wanted the children to stay bilingual. And we are so used to German, that we continued, even after the children have moved out.

Back to Banished.

To your formula

I will give you some of my thoughts, just to think about. We don't just want some fancy numbers, we want them to tell something; Be a help for the modder to make well balanced buildings and for the player to choose buildings and products.

I think, it's good to relate the numbers from a modded building with the numbers from compareable vanilla buildings. The problem is only, that the vanilla buildings are so different. I will not use math terminology, but if you make an average from numbers with a large variation, there are problems. It's maybe better to chose one specific building in each category.

What is the interest in mixing investment and production? In that case, you must also concider the time in which this building is used. No one knows, how long a player choose to play; it could be a few years (where the investment cost is important) or a few thousand years (!)(where the initial investment is totally uninteresting). I find, it would be better to calculate a number, that tells, how long it take, to "pay off" the investment. This would have the disadvantage, that the modder have two different numbers to work with; one for investment and one for production but I think, this would be more reliable. As alternative, you can build in an average time, in which the investment is supposed to be used in your formula, but without this, I find, your number has a limited use and the influence of the investment part, will generally be too high.

The numbers for uneducated as "standard"? I don't know. OK, you can see education as bonus or uneducation as penalty, I guess in the end it will be the same. I find the "standard" should be set to what people normally use. I (and most other player I know) generally have a high education rate. That's why I would prefere that to be the standard. And I do agree with you, that the modders should variate this uneducated penalty/education bonus more, than in vanilla, depending on the profession.

To my game

I haven't played many years but the settlement grows. It's a lot to do all the time, a very nice game. I can't say much more about the jewelery chain, than that you need a lot of random mines to get gems enough, to run the gemcutter continuously. I have a lot of "impact craters" and there will have to be more!  ;D

First picture

Just a small winter impression from my industrial area.

Second picture

Here's an overview in summer.

Third picture.

Here's the other area, where I expand. I haven't calculated, but I'm sure, there's no economy in my industry, at least not yet and the people have to be supported somehow. I've cut in the graph, where you can see the happiness and compare it to the population growth. You can also see, where the tornado was. It doesn't show much influence on the happines. I was lucky and had just built my only graveyard before it struck and most of the dead got a grave. I expect the happiness to get down from here. Two reason; many miners, many accidents and I have difficulties to produce enough bricks and rooftiles to build a house immediately for each young person. When young people can't move out as early as possible, it influences the happiness in a double negative way; more children live at home when a parent dies of old age, and when an unhappy person move out late, he doesn't recover happiness.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 26, 2018, 05:58:57 AM
your town looks so great :) the first screenshot... i ll try to make a fancy screen for the game with it :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 26, 2018, 06:42:24 AM
That would be cool, a picture from me! ;) But it's completely your "fault", that this town looks so good. You have made very lovely buildings. Even someone like me can build a good looking town. We have a proverb here in Sweden that says "Even a blind hen might find a grain", you can transfer it to "Even Nilla might build a nice looking town"! ;)

A small wish; a brewery in the same style as the gemcutter/jeweler/candlemaker. Wouldn't it be nice? I'm not very fond of the vanilla brewery, not even in your "clothes".
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 26, 2018, 09:25:36 AM
That would be cool, a picture from me! ;) But it's completely your "fault", that this town looks so good. You have made very lovely buildings. Even someone like me can build a good looking town. We have a proverb here in Sweden that says "Even a blind hen might find a grain", you can transfer it to "Even Nilla might build a nice looking town"! ;)

A small wish; a brewery in the same style as the gemcutter/jeweler/candlemaker. Wouldn't it be nice? I'm not very fond of the vanilla brewery, not even in your "clothes".

you are right all the way :) from first word to the last one of your post :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: galensgranny on March 26, 2018, 10:33:06 AM
I'm glad @Denis de la Rive, that you're not offended. I'm not mad at you, never was. But you must know; I'm an engineer and all my professional life, I've worked in "male structures". I made a decision early in my career, that I would not tolerate any kind of "master suppression techniques" (I think you call it in English); attempts to hold you down, not listening, make you invisible, ridiculous,,,, because you're a girl (could be immigrant, disabled, homosexual,,,,,,as well). I decided to always speak up and take the consequences. It has caused me some trouble but more respect. I have developed a quite sensible "bell", that rings, at the first signs. And this bell rang, as I read these entries; as it seemed, that you didn't listen to what i said.

@Nilla (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=profile;u=143) , you explained so well and so articulately what many men tend to do to women!  Here is an American English slang that goes with that "master suppression"- mansplaining.  The "splaining" is short for "explain".  Here is more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining).  I think some men don't realize they are doing it, but it would be good if they paid better attention.

Your town looks good, Nilla!  I haven't used canals yet, but I see how nice they are so will start using them.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 26, 2018, 09:48:17 PM
so i made a Loading Screen... from your screenshot :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 27, 2018, 01:52:09 AM
:) If I had known, that you wanted to use the picture, I would have put vendors in the closed charts, to take away these signs.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 27, 2018, 02:14:07 AM
:) If I had known, that you wanted to use the picture, I would have put vendors in the closed charts, to take away these signs.

yeah i prefer not have any status icons :) and no UI open neither :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 29, 2018, 03:11:17 PM
I think it's time to report a bit of what @RedKetchup wanted to know as I started this game:
Quote
check the carts how they working, efficacity, holding the right things, etc.
check the new numbers :)

Charts

I have built most of the charts. They work fine. They don't hold very much, but are small, so that's alright. Sometimes I use a vendor in it and sometimes not. If there's no vendor, the chart works as a small specialized stockpile.

As I first tried them, I wasn't sure how useful the charts for heavier material would be; a little more than 100 logs or 50 iron/other metals isn't much. But it works. On one location, where I had 2 chopper with 3 worker in each, one vendor had no problems to hold enough logs in the chart. I never saw less than about 60. I guess another full chopper could have been located there as well without problems.

Numbers

First, I have seen, that you forgot/changed your mind about to change the tradevalue for cream, like you said you would. It's still 4.

I like the new tradevalues. The products I use; cheese, pie, perfume are still good export products.

I also produce some bread for my population. It's better than it was, but I still think the bakery adds too little food value. My bakeries produce average about 500 bread for each baker. To make 500 bread you need 300 flour. This means the bakery only produces 200 food. That's less than most other food producers.

The fish pond now looks reasonable; 350-400 fish. Though I haven't run them very long and only with one fisher(this map has a lot of water to put other fisher.) The canalfisher from the 6 tiles canal catches more  ~500 , 4 tiles less 250-300.



Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 29, 2018, 03:33:47 PM
cream is now 3 value ( i changed it yesterday when i gone though smurphys spreadsheet.)
i can try to make up the pond just a little bit and go check my templates about the canal fishing docks.

to make 500 bread you need 300 flour which is 187.5 corn (or wheat, rye, oats ect)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 30, 2018, 12:30:24 AM
i can try to make up the pond just a little bit and go check my templates about the canal fishing docks.

to make 500 bread you need 300 flour which is 187.5 corn (or wheat, rye, oats ect)

I find the fishpond alright the way it is now. It's a simple construction, you can build many and put 4 fisher in it. Maybe the canalfisher on the wide parts give a bit too much. I don't know, if the 8 tile fisher gives even more with more water. I seldom build that wide. (Feeling pity for my Bannis, that have to dig such a wide canal for the tiny ships ;) )

But as I said, I find the bread too low. If we continue your calculation; 4 worker; 1 miller and 3 baker make about 1500 bread, using around 550 grain. That's less than 250 for each worker. It's not a complicated process, you only need one input, but a fisher, apiary, well.... is even simpler. You can answer; but the value of bread increases. Yes it does. If we recalculate; these 4 people makes a trade value of 3000 using 550 as input, that's around 600 each.

I will not say like @smurphys7; that I could buy 600 corn from these 187,5 I had from the start. It's not that easy. A part of it will always be eaten by your Bannis. How much depends on many things; how much food you have in general, how much of it is grain, how many traders you have and how many other trade products they must collect, how big is your settlement; how many vendors spread the bread over the map and makes the work for the trader more difficult and if you need many traders to collect as much as possible, maybe you should split the production on more than 4 workers. There are probably more. That's why I say, his value/time numbers have a limited use. Banished is too complex to be described in simple numbers. They can only be a help in some situations. It's good that way. Otherwise I think, we would have been boored after a few weeks playing. But I think you already knew, @RedKetchup. You're a clever guy. Just nicer and more polite then I am.

But again, I don't find bread a good trading product. I would rather use it to feed the population, comparable in production numbers with other producer of basic food. If I want to use the bakery for export, I can produce pie, cake or maybe even try some of the other more difficult products.

But as I always say; itīs your mod. You make it your way! Iīm fine with that.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 30, 2018, 04:55:10 AM
the profit is too low ? or the number of bread done per year is too low ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 30, 2018, 05:16:39 AM
I find that the profit is OK, but the production too low. As i said I want to produce bread for the population, not to trade. If you want to please me, I would increase the production with about 50% but set the price to 1. If you change the recipe or set the work time down, doesn't really matter. Now, 1 mill can support about 3 bakeries, producing bread. I find that's OK. If you set the worktime down, we need more mills, so maybe it's better to change the recipe.

But of course, I'm not the only one to please, so I'll be fine with what ever you'll decide. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 30, 2018, 05:28:15 AM
if i lower the time it takes to make 1 shot of bread (work required) all the other product will be also faster. do the other items need also being faster ?
if not... then i ll have to take more flour and make more bread in one shot
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 30, 2018, 05:40:41 AM
I use a big map, but as I said; 50% built. And I just looked once. I've never noticed that they would disappear. I only looked because @smurphys7 missed them. Last year my 11*2 hunters killed 2 boar and this year (winter) only one. So they are pretty rare and I guess they aren't present every time we look around.

Sorry wrong, that should be at that other thread.


To bread.

I find the other products are good as they are. 500 pies give a profit of 1100, that's enough

I've looked in my old notes, if they are right DS baker makes 40 bread from 25 flour. The Nordic bakery 40 bread from 24.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 30, 2018, 05:13:42 PM
so now bread will take 14 flour and make 20-28 bread with it instead of 10 flour for 14-20 bread
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 31, 2018, 03:36:23 AM
so now bread will take 14 flour and make 20-28 bread with it instead of 10 flour for 14-20 bread

OK, I will try it and see how it works. Have you also changed the trade value of bread?

It looks like our @RedKetchup soon will spend us a new version from this nice mod. I'm looking forward on many of the announced changes. I also find, that I have tried all I wanted to test in the settlement Skylindorm. So I'm ready for a new game with some new challenges. But first I will make a small summary with some conclusions. (sorry as usual the summary hasn't turned out small)  :-[

1 conclusion: it's not too hard to build the basic buildings like trading port, town hall and doctor, even if they need some "advanced building materials"


....but you need to "micromanage" the production buildings for these materials at the biginning. You don't need so much lumber, sand, glass and copper, that it has to be produced all the time. Just produce what you need for your plans (and maybe a little extra  for future building projects)

2. conclusion; the production of these advanced building materials works, when you want to expand a settlement fast with only NMT brick houses


The whole game I've tried to build a house for each new couple as soon as possible, mostly my favourite NMT houses (sand bricks with orange brick roofs). With some small exceptions, it has worked well. You don't need to "spam" the map with production sites. A few of each are enough. The problems have been low productivity sometimes, because the Bannis love to carry some things around (here clay and sand) if possible to the most remote places.

I have bought a little glass and brick from time to time, not much, I could have done without it, but especially glass is not more expensive to buy than to produce (as @smurphys7 has said in that other thread). Glass is a small product, so it hasn't a big impact on the game, but if you want to make glass more balanced, @RedKetchup, I would suggest to set the trade price higher. Glass used to be expensive, to double the price would be alright.

3. conclusion: you can support a larger settlement with the output from the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain.

It's a bit more tricky and less profitable than farming, but it works. The main problem is to have enough fodder, fertilizer and later in the game also water, close your production sites. As I said about sand and clay; Bannis love to carry around things. If you find a possible store without fertilizer, it's most likely close to a greenhouse!  :P This is a challenge and I have a few more ideas, I want to test in my future games.

But even if you don't like "playing around with optimization" of the sites like I do, the chain would work. Just build another greenhouse and accept a lower production in each. It's a good idea to locate a small chart for materials close to greenhouses, with or without vendor. It will be filled with sand and clay from time to time, so I think it's also a good idea to locate greenhouses, kiln and glassmaker close to eachother.

4. conclusion; the gem-jewels chain makes a lot of fun

It's probably no good business to mine for gems, gold and silver. (I haven't made any calculations, it's more a feeling). You'll need an awful lot of random mines to find enough gems to run a gemcutter continuously. But I see this more as an "achievement". If you have a settlement with a healthy economy, you can afford to establish this chain. It has a piece of gambling, that's fun. (A gem is worth 200, a gemcutter will most likely find an amethyst or topaz, worth 60 or 80 but in rare occasions, he's lucky and finds a diamond worth 1000.) It's something new to Banished and I will surely try the announced changes.

5. conclusion; this is a nice mod

This is a mod for everyone. It's a mod that's very good to play as single mod, it adds a lot of new things. The basic gameplay is still vanilla, so I see no problems in combining it with many other mods. I don't think, that it's too hard, if you don't have much experience in Banished, but it also gives a few challenges for more experinced players. It has some good compromises between keeping the normal Banished gameplay and reducing some of its worse balancing/designing issues. As always, there are things, that can be developed. We know, that you are working on it. You can be proud of this mod, @RedKetchup!

Finally I'll show a few impressions and some graphs from my settlement.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Gatherer on March 31, 2018, 04:08:53 AM
3. conclusion: you can support a larger settlement with the output from the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain.

It's a bit more tricky and less profitable than farming, but it works. The main problem is to have enough fodder, fertilizer and later in the game also water, close your production sites. As I said about sand and clay; Bannis love to carry around things. If you find a possible store without fertilizer, it's most likely close to a greenhouse!  :P This is a challenge and I have a few more ideas, I want to test in my future games.


This can be solved by hijacking one of the two still unused flags.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
Thanks you ALOT @Nilla for all your conclusions :) i like very much the design of your town :)
it looks great ! it looks very great !!

about bread: the price is set at 3 value per bread cause you did asked me to lower it the other day :)

the goal for the gem chain is not to make it a primary source of the main economy but more like a random powerful extra.
An extra that you can get from time to time.

you got up to 1300 citizens ? thats good. although i find the unemployment high, 150 laborers, it equals to 12% ?

i can give a little help to the greenhouse chain but in a way, i find the food come too easy overall. Lately, i am thinking to lower the food numbers all across the board so people would need more people working for food :P
more jobs for everyone ^^

i know i can hijack one of the 2 remaining flags.. but prefer to wait in case i need it later :)

should have a new built later tonight :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 31, 2018, 06:40:44 AM
about bread: the price is set at 3 value per bread cause you did asked me to lower it the other day :)

I rather thought of 1 as trade value. Now it's 2, so 3 would be higher; as high as cake.

you got up to 1300 citizens ? thats good. although i find the unemployment high, 150 laborers, it equals to 12% ?

12% laborers isn't very much. I use to say; 10-15% of the worksforce ought to be laborers in an efficient settlement. This is a little more, but for me unusually low. It looks like I hid the profession menu but I have much more vendors and traders than I need; 129 vendors and 48 traders and a lot of miners. If you remember that small map I filled, the one I used all the wells to solve the food issue. It had about 1500 inhabitants. I just looked at my last screenshot; there were 568 unemployed. ! But it was an efficient farming society.

i can give a little help to the greenhouse chain but in a way, i find the food come too easy overall. Lately, i am thinking to lower the food numbers all across the board so people would need more people working for food :P
more jobs for everyone ^^

Interesting idea. You saw my last game; it was actually possible to build a settlement where the people need the double amount of food. It wasn't easy and there was certainly not too many laborers. I didn't manage to have my 10% all the time.

Going the other way around to reduce some of the "worse" food producer, is something I would like. But would everyone like it? But I'm confident that you will find a way. You are good in making compromises, that work well. Just look at your chopper! :)


should have a new built later tonight :)

:)

I forgot to tell one thing: I'm starting to get these lags and graphic "glitches" already at 1300 inhabitants. I can't remember that I noticed anything on that small map (this is a big map). It's not troublesome yet, but as I said, I haven't noticed it in the other games and it's much earlier than in a vanilla game. Now I don't know,  if it's the mod that causes this or something else. I haven't made anything to reduce the lags like, change graphic settings or use some mods to reduce smoke, rain.... it's not that bad, yetm, just wanted to tell.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: brads3 on March 31, 2018, 06:53:18 AM
Nilla,did you notice any issues with the crops not losing food once hit with cold? whatever is already produced on the fields doesn't rot or freeze.it just waits for the farmers.

pic: produce not being hurt by frost.lettuce should have frosted,should be losing tomatoes.the growth bar doesn't show damage due to cold.fields seem dependant on summer temps only. if it is warm enough, they grow.whatever is produced,waits for the farmers.some crops should be more affected by cold than others.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
oh ok, i ll put it down to 2 value then :P

yeah i can maybe nerf more the worst one than be very gentle overall ^^


about lag... bah you know , it is normal there is a little bit more lag... i put so much stuff ! but the main lag comes still from the game pathing itself.

i ll see during the week if i can make a no-smoke addon for it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 06:58:08 AM
Nilla,did you notice any issues with the crops not losing food once hit with cold? whatever is already produced on the fields doesn't rot or freeze.it just waits for the farmers.

pic: produce not being hurt by frost.lettuce should have frosted,should be losing tomatoes.the growth bar doesn't show damage due to cold.fields seem dependant on summer temps only. if it is warm enough, they grow.whatever is produced,waits for the farmers.some crops should be more affected by cold than others.

surely it comes from 1 from your other mods because i assure you, if it doesnt get harvested, the food get wasted quickly
Title: Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
Post by: Nilla on March 31, 2018, 09:05:39 AM
Nilla,did you notice any issues with the crops not losing food once hit with cold? whatever is already produced on the fields doesn't rot or freeze.it just waits for the farmers.

pic: produce not being hurt by frost.lettuce should have frosted,should be losing tomatoes.the growth bar doesn't show damage due to cold.fields seem dependant on summer temps only. if it is warm enough, they grow.whatever is produced,waits for the farmers.some crops should be more affected by cold than others.

No, I haven't noticed this. Not in RKEd and not in the North, nor in any other of the mods I've tested. There has to be some weird combination effects. You'll find out @brads3, that's your field of expertise.