Author Topic: Happiness Testing  (Read 3291 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2018, 09:22:51 AM »

It's also really boring.  We need more "needs" not fewer.  Next we'll find out the second teir clothing doesn't do anything, or something. I've long said there are two things I'm not a fan of about this game. Now there are three, it seems.

Agree. And Im sorry to say; clothing or not, doesnt make a big difference!  :-\

Ill qoute myself from that blog I wrote about earlier:
Quote
I made some other very interesting observations during two winters. I looked at three fishers; one with excellent clothing (warm coat), one with fair clothing (wool or hide coat) and one with ragged clothes. The one with excellent clothing never went home to get warm. The fair clothing went home 1 or 2 times each winter. The one without clothes went home 3 times each winter.

Conclusions; In a normal settlement, where people live close to their working places, they can do very well without clothes. There is a small productivity loss during the winter (they start to go home at temperatures of about +3 C). There is about the same productivity loss between wool coats and no coats, as between warm coats and wool coats. It might look different, if the winter is colder or milder, the two winters I looked seemed to be quite normal.

Offline Maldrick

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2018, 09:47:31 AM »
Yep, it's still a tiny boost in efficiency even if very small.  Still preferable than zero reason to make them. lol

Really hate seeing this game get dumbed down.
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
― Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2018, 10:29:53 AM »
To happiness I also can say something. Month ago I wanted to mod this part of the game to make it more relevant and I made some tests. Not long term playing like here, rather technically to see what happens with unhappy people if they have a church or drink alcohol and so on. I found the same. No effect of alcohol, taverns, churches or any other happiness building except of cemeteries. So I gave up to deal with it and changed some things. Made ale to be a foodstuff, gave churches the function of attracting nomads and removed useless parts of the UI. In the code there are these different kinds of happiness aspects like savety, entertainment and so on. Buildings even create happiness layers in game as you can see if using debug options in modkit but the game seems to not do something with it. Probably it was not finished or not working properly and partly disabled after tests. The concept I like much and it's a pity that it doesn't really work. But even reduced to the function of cemeteries I find it an interesting aspect of the game, even though a bit macabre but that's Banished.^^

Offline Nilla

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2018, 11:40:44 AM »
Just a little picture from my present game. I test the North 6 and play with Norseman (real time aging). With a real time aging mod, the effect of deaths is much bigger; if someone gets unhappy for the rest of his life, it's a very long time; 4 time as long as in a "normal" game. I seldom build graveyards in a normal game but always in a real time.

A couple of years ago, the wife of Darvis died, giving birth to a child. I have enough cemeteries, so Darvis isn't unhappy. The son Arthurson however is. As I've said; children who lose a parent stay unhappy, graveyards or not. Maybe, if he moves out young, he will recover happines. I'll keep an eye on him and tell you.

I also show the happiness graph. I play the survivor start. That's the explanation for the drop in happines at the beginning. The people have no clothes and it took a couple of years until everyone had a home. This too, makes people unhappy. I guess that each small drop in happiness later is from children, who lost a parent. I haven't looked for unhappy individuals, and I will not bother to search, but if I by chance find someone, I will keep an eye on them.

Since I've seen that you follow this thread @Tom Sawyer a completely off topic question to you: It looks like you've reduced the possible age difference in marrages. There are some 16 years old girls, who don't want this 33 year old widower. Why change the 20 years from the vanilla game? I find it quite OK. How high is the age difference in Norseman?

Offline smurphys7

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 12:45:51 PM »
Thanks for more interesting information, everyone.  More evidence, contrary or supporting, is always great.  I am glad I can also add some more data to help us figure out how things work when we don't have access to the full game code.

I think the general question of "What affects Happiness" is pretty much answered.  As Nilla said long ago, Death makes people unhappy and Cemeteries can oppose that.  Nothing else matters.  I didn't try to determine exactly how much Happiness is lost or gained under whatever circumstances.  It sounds like Nilla had some good data on that topic.

I am considering this mostly done.  I didn't plan on doing any further experiments on this topic.  I may do some experiments figuring out the efficiency ramifications of things like Happiness and others.  However, many require some effort to do the experiment. 

I'm going to finish up a CC guide, actually play Banished, and plot and scheme first :)

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 01:53:24 PM »
@Nilla Vanilla people marry at age of 10 - 30, Norseman 16 - 32. I don't remember why I made it this way. Maybe I felt sorry for the boys if they could get an old widow and 32 seemed ok to me.^^  I can change it to 36.

Offline smurphys7

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2018, 01:55:07 PM »
Do you mean a 20 year gap between spouses or do you mean they only marry between the ages of 10 and 30?

Offline Nilla

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2018, 02:13:01 PM »
They do marry at every age. We all know that old people who lost a partner remarry another old fellow. Its the difference in age. But since Im no modder, I dont know the code.

Offline Maldrick

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2018, 09:04:56 PM »
So, on the map I'm playing, I was fairly close to start when this discussion started so I turned off the chapel I had built early, along with a cemetery, and the only happiness building I had for about 20 years was a cemetery. Had solid 5 stars from the start.

After about 100 pop and a few years happiness dropped to 4.5 stars.  I built a couple more chapels to accommodate the pop and turned them on.  Happiness went back up to 5 stars.  Turned them off and it dropped back to 4.5.  Repeated this 3 times and it was the same.  Sometimes it takes a couple seasons for it to go back up but sometimes immediate.  The drop off was always immediate.
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 11:49:56 PM »
So, on the map I'm playing, I was fairly close to start when this discussion started so I turned off the chapel I had built early, along with a cemetery, and the only happiness building I had for about 20 years was a cemetery. Had solid 5 stars from the start.

After about 100 pop and a few years happiness dropped to 4.5 stars.  I built a couple more chapels to accommodate the pop and turned them on.  Happiness went back up to 5 stars.  Turned them off and it dropped back to 4.5.  Repeated this 3 times and it was the same.  Sometimes it takes a couple seasons for it to go back up but sometimes immediate.  The drop off was always immediate.

Interesting. Can you show the graph from the townhall.

Offline Maldrick

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2018, 01:41:34 AM »
Caught me at a stable point so I just ran it and toggled chapels on and off every 3 months for 5 or 6 years.  Had them on before and didn't lose half a star in the average this time, but the bumps correspond to the chapels being on and off.  Had a couple of strings of multiple deaths towards the end, so assuming that's what the two extra dips are from.  Still didn't drop any stars, though.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 01:47:04 AM by Maldrick »
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
― Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2018, 03:31:58 AM »
Phew.. really hard to interpret something into this graph. It's almost completely flat, alternating between 95 and 96%, probably along the border to 5 stars. But losing a half star actually means drops of about 10% and that would be relevant. This graph is rather evidence for no effect. Maybe it needs any special test to check if there is really such a tiny effect of a church. Just for interest. :)

Offline Maldrick

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2018, 11:40:42 AM »
I take it as having an effect.  Since I sat and watched it bump up and down as I toggled them on and off.  It was flat in between the changes taking effect each time except during those clusters of deaths which, if you look closely, is clear on the graph.  Those are plateaus, not waves.  Where you see it stagger is because small chapels are being used and there is often some lag time with one or two as the clerics are getting back to them.  But once there and it settled in it was flat until I made the next change.  I was watching on the 1 year graph as I did this and it was clearly an on-off change each cycle.  Usually about a month for it to shift, it seemed, but the drop-offs were faster.

Don't know why I lost a half star the first time and didn't when I ran this.  Health maybe?  At this point the town is further along and I've got food groups better covered and I've expanded a bit and infrastructure is better. But it was the same in that case when I first noticed this...I was playing and didn't think to look at the graph because I was seeing it on star average.  If I knew what the difference was I would replicate it.

In either case, it's definitely minimal.  But to say there's no effect wouldn't be accurate.  Don't think it can be said that only cemeteries affect happiness.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:57:33 AM by Maldrick »
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
― Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Offline Maldrick

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2018, 02:42:19 PM »
Sitting down to play and had the same save I did the other one handy, so I ran a different one.

On this one I did it by year:

Year 1 - Only Cemetery -- Pretty much same as before except this time it fluxed between 4.5 and 5 stars.  No idea why, except it seemed to coincide with births and deaths.  I should say, I have no idea why it didn't flux before in the earlier run, because I was getting 4.5 stars with just a cemetery when I first noticed this but didn't then.

Year 2 - Added Wells -- No change in happiness level but it seemed to stabilize whatever was fluxing before.  There were no more dips down to 4.5 but on the 1 Year graph it did peak up above the flat line once before immediately returning.  Doesn't show on this graph.  Was otherwise a completely flat line.

Year 3 - Added Chapels -- Same effect as before with it capping off happiness.  Insofar as it can be capped off, that is.  Curious as to why it never reaches a full 100% like others on the graph.  Health, too.

Year 4 - Added Brewers -- Didn't see any change except for a couple of dips down, which is interesting.  Wouldn't look too closely at this one beyond that, though, because most of them weren't productive as I was short on what I was brewing with and happiness was already so close to cap.  Needs a closer look with a better test.

Year 5 - Turned off Chapels and Brewers.  Destroyed Wells. -- Drop off is clear and it flattens back out at the Cemetery-only level.

So it seems that Cemeteries are required for solid happiness, but can it can be stabilized / capped with other buildings, consistent with what I and others have seen in play.  It would appear that Chapels are the best for that, with Wells having minimal effect.  Brewers are still in question.  It also appears that the combo of Chapels with Wells gives a higher boost than just Chapels when compared to the earlier graph.

It's also notable that the slight rippling flux at the beginning was between 4.5 and 5 stars.  The improvement from Churches and Wells is much higher than that so, while still minimal and not necessarily needed, it's significantly greater than just raising happiness from 4.5 to 5 stars.  It's just not represented on the star rating.  If you, as a player, don't worry about that difference this won't mean much to you.  If you do, it's worth it to build Chapels and Wells.  Going by the Clothing wave, which fluxes between 99 and 100%, it looks to be a 2 or 3% difference.  Which, given that all of this is an average, could translate to a significant difference on a bannie-by-bannie basis.

Clearly, it can't be concluded that only cemeteries give happiness.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 03:21:42 PM by Maldrick »
"We are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
― Ezio Auditore da Firenze

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Happiness Testing
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2018, 02:46:40 PM »
yeah the ale thing isnt working at all and is very badly setup by the developper.
in my book, the ale function should have been setup exactly like the herbalist/herb function ( + 1/2 heart or + 1/2 happiness for ale)
presently totally useless out of selling money value
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