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Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

Started by Nilla, February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM

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brads3

the CC way was set to push trade value up. it did this at the expense of volume.a player would try to process foods to help the bannies and in fact the food reserves would drop considerably.RED's way sounds much better.improving the food to the bannies is more important.
           NILLA,how are the crop outputs? i know you mentioned them before,but i thought RED tweaked them with the update.

RedKetchup

ok


thanks you for the real testing you do :)


so ...

i lowered flour to 1 value
12 flour to make 16-20 bread at 2 value
cake lowered to 3 value
pie lowered to 4 value
perfume lowered to 6 (about the merchants, it already been set they wont bring alot of flowers at same time)
nmt30 pond output has been increased. time to fish from 8 units to 6 units to get a fish out.

i am still working on the carts. took me more time than i thought. making 12 carts, they all personalized to reflect what they should hold.
i need to change the toolbars though after, too many barns, too many carts, too many markets... they all will need to get their sub toolbars.
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smurphys7

#182
Your balancing should factor in time.  Time is a huge factor of profitability.  I don't have the numbers for the un-modded game but for Colonial Charter here are some examples based on THESE spreadsheets:

Firewood: 1.75 Value created per "Time" (I don't know if unmodded game uses same #s):
16 Value (4 Firewood) Educated Output
2 Value (1 Log) Input
14 Value created per cycle

2 Work Required
4 Work Time
8 Total Work

14 Value / 8 Work = 1.75 Value created per "Time"

Ale: 1.25 Value Created per "Time"
80 Output Value
30 Input Value
50 Value Created

10 Work Required
4 Work Time
40 Total Work

50 Value / 40 Time = 1.25 Value Created per "Time"

These are two of the classic and most profitable creators.  As you said, not everything needs to be super valuable.  I agree with that not everything needs to be super valuable and super profitable.  HOWEVER, it is possible to have something create large value yet still be a poor value creation option.  Comparing value created alone is insufficient without time. 

Domesticated Animal: 0.35 Value Created per "Time"
250 Output Value (1 Animal)
200 Input Value (200 Oats)
50 Value Created

20 Work Required
20 Work Time
140 Total Work

50 Value / 140 Time = 0.35 Value Created per "Time"

I have been told several times that "Domesticated Animals" are the best trade option in Colonial Charter.  In reality, a better option for your workers would be literally digging up Reeds all day at the Dock set's Reed farm: 0.6 Value per Time.

It is difficult to compare these numbers to direct producers like Gatherers, Hunters, Fisherman and Farmers because they don't directly function via work-time like Woodcutters.  However, I think somewhere around 0.5 to 0.8 are a great balance.  I think things that are drastically above or drastically below should bear closer inspection.  I am not saying the outliers surely need adjustment.  I am saying the outliers should have strong reasoning for why they merit being outliers.

For perspective on some I consider outrageous in CC:
Charcoal: 5.0
Coke Fuel 4.219
Steel Tools: 0.4
Bronze Tools: 0.1

Nilla

I play very little CC so I can't say much to your specific numbers. (But I do remember that charcoal used to be ridiculously profitable, I think they've reduced it in later versions), You can see, that my numbers are based on "empiric" production values from my present town. I simply look a few years, how much is produced in the actual site. That includes the time. I find, this is a more reliable way to go, than only use the theoretic period of production. There's another important thing, that has an impact on the real productivity and that's how often the worker has to leave the production site and get more material. It's a big difference, if he gets 10 material each time or 100, it's also a difference, if he needs 3 different materials and have to go away 3 times or no input at all. 

I will make an example based on your numbers and my experience; comparing ale and firewood in a vanilla game. Your numbers would say, that firewood would give 1/3 more than ale (1,75/1,25) time value.

In real a good chopper makes 800 firewood and a good brewer 500. The profit for 1 wood is 3,5, the ale 5. This gives an annual profit of 2800/2500, a bit but not 1/3 more for firewood. I think this is because the chopper only gets 10 wood at the time, while the brewer gets 100 fruit. Of cause location of storage, homes..... are also important and the production in these sites may be higher but are also often lower.

Of cause my numbers are not the absolute truth, just based on my actual game. But I think in any case better than only theory.


RedKetchup

beta 11 is available, let me know if it is save compatible !
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smurphys7

I understand we, the players and testers, can't see the full numbers without ridiculous amounts of testing.  The numbers are good for mod creators to have their products be at reasonable levels of usefulness without testing.  We, the players, can mostly test and determine "yes, there isn't anything that is radically good or bad".

Nilla

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 18, 2018, 02:59:37 PM
beta 11 is available, let me know if it is save compatible !
Yes it looks as if it is. The old buildings seem to take the new values without demolition, at least the ones I checked. The new tradevalues work. No crashes. It was late as I downloaded the mod yesterday but so far it looks alright. I will start a new game anyway. It's part of the fun. We'll see later, what I want to do. Is there anything special you want to have tested @RedKetchup?

Quote from: smurphys7 on March 18, 2018, 03:51:06 PM
I understand we, the players and testers, can't see the full numbers without ridiculous amounts of testing.  The numbers are good for mod creators to have their products be at reasonable levels of usefulness without testing.  We, the players, can mostly test and determine "yes, there isn't anything that is radically good or bad".

Believe it or not, I am that crazy, looking at such values all the time. Maybe not always this thorough with numbers. I made that right from the beginning, from the first game I played, and still do, when I try something new. I look in the menu, how much material are used and how much is produced in one cycle, look in the trading port of the values, estimate the profit/loss for one of each product, look at the annual production a couple of years and calculate an average annual win; in tradevalue as well as for domestic use. I do this while playing, calculation "in my head" (I'm old enough to have been in school before the calculators, so I can do this :) ) Sometimes I make some notes on a sheet on my desk, not always easy to decipher and the most likely source for mistakes,  :-[

RedKetchup

#187
Quote from: Nilla on March 19, 2018, 02:59:48 AM
Is there anything special you want to have tested @RedKetchup?


check the carts how they working, efficacity, holding the right things, etc.
brads also reported trouble with some fences... found it
check the new numbers :)
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Denis de la Rive

First a general comment, after looking a a lot of what you have done, its wonderful to find someone who thinks like me that balance is a very important subject. I also like the many images you have posted. :)

I agree food transformation should aim at feeding the people not generate profit unless it involves 3 or more transformations. There are many ways to create goods for export that don't involve food. I think that is very much in the spirit of the game a designed by Luke. I think your values and the changes made for them are very correct.

On CC: there are many areas that need to be changed, some production chains are totally unbalanced, I have seen the code and worked the numbers, but CC is now mostly inactive except for MM, which is a very difficult task for just one man. Anyway we are here to discuss Red's mod, and Nilla's villages, not compare it with others who have different design principles.

I have studied production in detail, across several mods and can tell you that even if you code certain numbers you can't control all the variables. In Banished: Time = Distance = Production, in the code you have two values for production but they don't factor in what a modder can't control: distance. This refers to the distance, (time) between home, storage, (input or output), market, (getting your: food, fuel, clothing, and tools), and the speed of travel, (type of road), and the production site. You also have no way of accounting for functions like happiness, and health which also take time, (distance). Placing all the necessary buildings close will increase production, but that is the best you can do. You can design numbers but a better way of seeing what is happening is with careful examination the way Nilla does.

I have created some formulas for balance, but that is something best discussed elsewhere, I won't hijack Nilla blog with technical numbers discussions. If there is an interest I might start my own blog.

I would like to thank you for working so hard at making this the best mod possible.


Nilla

I agree in much what you say, @Denis de la Rive. A theoretic value is one thing; might be useful but to look how things work in a real game is more reliable.

I don't mind, if the theory of balancing is discussed here. As you might understand, I like to look at balancing, productivity and such things and I'm testing the mods in my special way. Of cause I like to discuss it with someone, who also have thought about these things.

Denis de la Rive

I think you way of testing is probably the best one, it gives the modder very useful information. I'm not sure how much of Banished coding you understand, and don't want to confuse people with complex formulas, without explaining certain elements of how the game code works.

What can be said is: in the mod kit there are no real ways to determine what the value of goods should be, this and the lack of documentation from Luke creates a lot of the problems. The advantage of having a way to calculate this can indicate to a designer how to modify values such as input or final trade value. You can use the known values of vanilla buildings and resources as a basis to see how your new items fit into the game.

When you are making a mod it can be more important to focus on graphics, which are more difficult, and actual coding which is more practical, than on tools to use for balance. It is also a subject that few are interested in or want to take the time to understand. Many players want to suggest, or find bugs, or make requests, but not discuss the underlying factors involved in how the game works.

My formulas are on my other computer, but I can see what I can post tomorrow.

Nilla

Quote from: Denis de la Rive on March 19, 2018, 07:55:04 PM
I'm not sure how much of Banished coding you understand, and don't want to confuse people with complex formulas, without explaining certain elements of how the game code works.

That's a good question, as people use to say, when there's no precise answer. I can answer "nothing" or "quite a lot". ;)

I know nothing about the special Banished coding. It is special, so much I've understood. But I have a basic knowledge of programming (very old from the time as the languages that were "in" had names like Fortran and TurboPascal) and I've also had a long professional life, as user of different kind of software. That helps you understand possibilities. I've followed the work of the modders here on this page from day 1 (with some interruptions from time to time), tested a lot and suggested changes, especially in balancing. So I rather have a feeling for how the codes of production (and some other things as well) work, and what possibilities there are for changes, than knowledge about the coding. That's enough for me. I don't really want to know in detail. I haven't even downloaded the mod kit to check it out. I confess, it's lazy; it's comfortable to have the others work and only enjoy the result. Call me an eccentric old lady, if you want. ;)

I've been thinking a bit more about your argumentation against the use of "advanced building materials" in basic buildings in that other thread, @Denis de la Rive. I know, this is speculation and it might be wrong. But I think your concern is based on experience from CC, where the production of these materials is a pain for people like us, who like to look at balancing. I can't speak of good balancing, when a material is so hard and expensive to produce, that you can buy it for a minor part of the production costs. @RedKetchup´s production chains are different. I have no actual values, most because I usually don't run them continuously long enough. But the way I see it, all of them are good in every aspect of balancing; you can produce the amount of material you need in a reasonable time, the value of the material increases enough, to make it worth produce yourself, but not that much, that these materials are worth to export.

In my new game I've decided to prove, how easy it is to use these "advanced materials". I've chosen an Adam and Eve start. I will build a trading port, a lighthouse (much nicer and more expensive townhall alternative) and a doctor as fast as I can. For my own amusement, I've decided to give it a small "twist" and educate all children.

I just see, I was so busy playing, that I didn't make many screenshots along the way. But I'll show you those I made and tell a little bit about my choices.

First picture

Starting position and map setting. No other mods than RKEC. I like the canals, that's the reason I choose a lake map. This was the first I opened and it looks promising; several lakes to connect with canals in a way that make sense. I have decided to play this game without farming. My two last test games were based on farming. Here it will be forestry, fishing, meadows and trade (not firewood and ale). I think, that will give additional aspects, to how your buildings work, @RedKetchup.

One small thing. The menu says that they start with: 7 tools, 7 rags........ But it's actually hide coats. They wear rags themselves as they start, so they grab one coat each at once.

Second picture

Year 4. The house is full and life is tough with only one person working to support the family, while one is busy educating. At the moment of this screenshot, it looks like collecting food will be the next task. If you try an Adam and Eve start; don't forget the "instant gathering tool". It's very useful, also at the beginning of a "normal" start. Why not a similar tool for firewood, @RedKetchup? The first thing I built after the house, was that big woodchopper. A bit stupid, if a couple stranded out in the woods with more or less nothing, will have to build this rather impressive workplace as one of the first things, when the forest is full of wood.

In any case, it didn't take long until Stela was educated and her graduation present; a house of her own was just about to be ready. She just had to help finish the last details. If we play Adam and Eve we must put our "moral values" by side and be happy, that she took her little brother in and that soon her first child was born; at the same time as her youngest brother. This was the thought by finishing that second house as soon as possible; room for one more "child of Eve's".

Third picture

This is the next screenshot I made, unfortunately nothing in between. Also no save to go back to and make some now later. Anyhow, you can see that the first part of my task is done. These 8 adults managed to build the trading port. It took some time; until year 12. There were other things in between to manage but there was no big problem.

There was a time; maybe 2 years, where they had no coats. But Bannis can do with rags. They just don't work that good in winter; have to go home more often to get warm, but that's all. The reason was less the need of advanced materials, than my idea of getting all children educated (even if the need of lumber slowed the finishing of the tailor down) But there wasn't enough time for one single person to support the family, collect materials and build a house for the daughter, finish the hunter, hunt some deer, build a lumber cutter, cut lumber, collect material for a tailor and build a tailor. After a third and later a fourth person helped, this worked fine, but of cause took some time.

Anyhow, it didn't take long to produce the little lumber and glass needed for that port; the stones took longer to collect. There were also other things, to do in between; a new graduation present for every girl. (There might be some talk about unfairness in this village; the girls get a house, the boys nothing :-\) The health went down to 3 harts and I didn't want to risk a disease, so we needed a herbalist and of cause a reliable sustainable support of logs, is always essential; the forester can't wait long.

As next the lighthouse is on the schedule.

RedKetchup

wow i like that !
i never played adam&eve myself ^^

at first glimpse it would rather look scary and hard.... but you making it so easy lol


about firewood.....
you know at beginning, fodder-thatch was some kind of "firewood" and it was taking care of what you are asking ^^
but i ve got to change it. not sure i like the change though because i liked that idea. of course, although as much as i loved that idea, i was also getting some feelings about it was making the game so easy too...

but with your suggestion, i can maybe add some brambles spawns which would give some "firewood" and since the spawns would be more rare like wild food, maybe it can be a good thing. i like the idea to send a couple of bannies to gather firewood for half of a season sometimes to prepare for the winter :)
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brads3

i wish an A&E start could be faked to load as medium so the pine mod would still work with it.it is odd how just changing the bannie start count offsets other mods.Nilla is used to firewood that TOM added to the NORTH mod.she is crazy to do all that micro-managing with 1 worker.i have both firewood from NORTH and burnable thatch.and RED's wood houses use it for construction and burn it.

1 other thing the NORTH does different is the trade values change from time to time.not every merchant pays or charges the same amounts.

Denis de la Rive

Frist: Red, you have a nice idea, but be careful not to make too much of it, if it spawns at start in small numbers like your copper, that would be a creative additions. You have to careful not to replace the firewood function. I don't know what value you have for copper, but this should be at most 5 to 10% of that value. You have to remember that what is spawn at the start will remain until collected, that will leave less space for the other things that are grown or dropped by trees. You have to balance all your new resources so things can still be created, and to avoid making it more like a cheat.

I understand the need you feel to make the game harder, but it might be more interesting to create objectives by using buildings that are an achievement, (hard to build), starting conditions, terrain mixes, than by altering the basic game functions. You could change spawn numbers and other factors with a similar type of code to create Red's challenges, hard, very hard, insane, (you get nothing to start, on a map with very little spawned resources, is that possible, if so then yes its hard). By doing this you can create something that can be used by many more players, who can choose the level they like, not be forced into something beyond their skills. You know a level one character on a level 30 quest!

To brads3: what you find crazy, I admire, such attention and concentration to the game is precious, and it works. I don't see why you would want to discuss the north here, maybe I'm confused. I also don't understand why you would want to alter the value of the challenge that is A&E by making it too easy.

To: Nilla, like Red wrote WOW! You are certainly a better player than me, where you micro-manage, I macro-manage, totally different styles.

You misunderstand why I think certain things can be too difficult to make, I have a lot of knowledge of CC, but I am not writing about my playing style, or my own requests, but rather about design, and how it is important to avoid making some of the mistakes I have seen in some mods, including CC. I try to imagine how a mod will be used by the average player, or even one who has not played the the game before. I do this because I have helped a large number of players who just don't understand how to play, or have the tricks the experts know. When you design for a game it is important to think about the users, and not to focus on a single playing style. I have nothing against your style, I agree that you are presenting YOUR way, and that is both OK, and useful.

About coding for Banished: you use what Luke has published, examples and templates to create mods, it is simple, not overly complex, but nothing is explained, some functions are still not well understood as to what they actually do to the game. There are nor reference that tell you how making changes will cause the game to act. The code for buildings, (which includes production), resources, are not very complicated when you understand what the functions mean. The graphics part is much more involved, thankfully Red is a master at that!

Taking work, there are two values, one for the amount of work, the other for the number of times it must be done to accomplish a task. So you get 10 x 5 = 50, to get a certain job done, be it building, or making. Some functions are more complex since they refer to other ways of creating goods, like fishing or hunting. But again the code is simple, (in reference to the programming you have done in the past).

What I have done is create numbers based on vanilla values so you can compare what is being added to the game with what remains the benchmark, vanilla values. If you think it is still interesting we can continue from here. :)