Author Topic: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11  (Read 5132 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11
« on: February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM »
I have decided to leave the North for a brief visit by the latest development from all our @RedKetchup.

I only started the game yesterday and didn't get very far. It's a little bit like the first steps in a game you play the first time, or rather a game you have played an earlier version from before. New surprises all the time! I like that!

I have followed the development thread, so it wasn't a surprise, that the vanilla buildings all look different from the vanilla buildings, if you understand what I mean. ;) But it was a small surprise, that it wasn't as easy as usual to build them all. Don't get me wrong. This was a very pleasant surprise. (Those of you who hasn't tried this mod yet yourself and want to discover these surprises for yourself, don't read the next section!)

I had one 7 year old. In such a case, I build a school as one of the very first buildings. To build a school you need iron, that's not different from vanilla, but there's no iron to be found, only iron ore. So first you need a blacksmith, then the school. Similar the tailor; you need lumber to build it: first a lumber mill, then a tailor. I start this game "hard", and want some seeds and animals fast. So soon I will need to build a tradingport. I have seen, that besides lumber iron and stone two more material are needed; I'm not sure yet what. Glass is one of them, the other copper or maybe brick. No worries, I'll find out and produce it. That will be fun!

I have two small requests @RedKetchup:

How long do the different tools last. I think I've seen it somewhere in the 50 sites long development thread, but it's not easy to find, when you need it. It would be nice, if it stood on the download page, together with the heat economy of the houses.

The menu of the forester only have three lines, but there are a lot of more materials to get in the wood. That would be nice to see, in a similar large menu like gatherer and hunter.

First picture

The first buildings. I've cut in the starting conditions. I only use RKEC. Maybe I will add some more mods later.

Second picture

A various of food in the woods! The "dangerous wild boars" look funny, not like they could kill anyone. The animation isn't perfect but they are cute. Sorry, not to be seen on this picture except after the "care" of a hunter.  :-\

Third picture

First basic buildings done. I'm looking forward on collecting material for the trading port.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 02:42:04 AM by Nilla »

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2018, 06:09:03 PM »
yes i can do both requests @Nilla  :)

i can add the 8 items long window to the forester. and i can expand my wiki with tools info :)

it reminds me also to lower the extra animal spawns and also lower just a bit the original deer one because it getting crazy to see all that food with just 1 hunter. there is also the fact that hunters get more kills per month that the vanilla hunter (month per kill 1 instead of 2 months)
it reminds me also to revert back the change made to the vanilla blueberry which are too high.

i will follow this thread closely :)
and THANKS you doing it :)
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Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2018, 06:30:09 PM »
you can see the tools info in here : http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2253.msg45502#msg45502

about the forester window : change has been made for the next Beta build which will be available next weekend :)
about the spawning numbers of animals : they have been reduced by another 50%
about blueberries : i kept the numbers i've setup for the orchard blueberries, and i lowered the chance to spawn in wilderness of 50%. Gatherers, with all the new food they can get, were doing crazy with those blueberries high numbers.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 07:31:19 PM by RedKetchup »
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Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2018, 08:04:49 PM »
this will be interesting for sure.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 05:39:18 AM »
I hope you will stay that happy about this blog @RedKetchup. You know me quite a long time and you also know, that I don't only say nice things, even if it looks like it was so yesterday.   ??? I will tell you things I don't like, too. Starting today.  :-\  But take it for what it is; one person's opinion. I know very well, that I sometimes don't like things others love and that I like things others dislike. I don't expect, that things are changed the way, I would like them to be.

Thanks for the numbers from the tools. They look logical.

Yes definitely, there's too much blueberries. About the meat, I'm not that sure. It seems to have been reduced, after the first few years, as there was too much. It almost seems, like there was a lot of animals in the circle at the biginning, but they've been hunted too strong, so now the hunter doesn't find that much anymore. I'm not sure about this, I haven't looked particularly into it. Last year (year 11) they got 720 meat, 4 fur and 18 leather. I will keep an eye on this and make notes of the annual production.

I found out about the necessary building materials for the trading port, the unknown part was copper. The merchants have been friendly; brought rye seeds and sheep. (and of cause often things you don't need, but that's Banished life)

I'm not sure, I like copper as construction material. For what would such a building need that much copper? But it's not worse, than all that iron, vanilla buildings use, so why not. It makes a lot of fun, that the buildings need a lot of different building materials. I can very well live with coppar (and iron).

I like your lumbermaker. It makes 10 lumber from 4 logs (if my notes are correct). Some other lumber mills need several logs to make one lumber. I never liked that. Why did people go from logs to lumber in life? It was an easier way to build, than to cut the logs on site with an ax. You can use the material more efficient. I also like, that there are several options to build these "second stage houses" equivalent to vanilla stone houses. They are not only different in the look, you can choose the building materials. The vanilla house need logs, stone and iron, other similar (NMT small Houses) need lumber and stones or what I have started to build; lumber and brick.

I'm not so sure about fodder-thatch as fuel. Yes sure, it is very practical at the beginning, not having to cut that much firewood. But now I have built a fodder farmer. It doesn't produce much yet. I guess it take some years, but it looks like much of it goes into the houses as fuel. I wanted to build a stable. What will my horses eat, if people steal their food just to burn? We will see how this work in the next few years.

As I said I got rye seeds. Nice to process it to flour and bread. The mill increase the amount in a reasonable way. It looks like flour is inedible. I know, some people demand this. I find it weird, that Bannis couldn't bake their own bread at home, if they like. They'll rather starve, even if the barns are full of flour.  :-\ Unfortunately the bakery decrease the amount of food. (again if my numbers are right) 16 flour makes 12 bread. The tradevalue increases however. I now remember, how I supported whole settlements by exporting the pies from this bakery. But honestly, I don't find, that bread or pie are "natural trading products". I rather like the amount to be increased, the only way to give a product a higher value for the population. Not everything has to be good trading products, but I like every production step to add some kind of value.

First picture


This picture is for @brads3. You can see Rosannis 19 years old, still a student. She doesn't even live very far from school.

Second picture

Here's a small trading/production center.

You can see the content in my stores. There's a lot of overpowered blueberries but not so much meat (not that overpowered). There is 1000 venison in the port but I haven't sold any yet.

Third picture

The center of the town. We can afford to eat bread, even if it's a loss to produce. You can see in the background, that the woodcutter have reached the limit. I try to "flood the place" with firewood, so I can save some fodder for the stable, I plan to build next.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 06:01:03 AM »
are the houses using firewood and thatch-fodder equally?is it being used more by houses near forests and farther from wood cutters? is it growing back in the forests or are the foresters getting more logs than thatch?
      NILLA.do you think having a bundler to bundle the thatch before the houses would solve it or do you have a better idea?

      your take on flour and baked goods is different.there is 2 value points. 1 the amount and 2 the trade value.boosting the amount helps the bannies than trade but balances the trade also. though processing food in RL gives less food i can understand your idea.game wise it is sensible.haven't thought of or heard it put the way you have before.it would give a player more reason to process food than just to trade it away.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 07:03:38 AM »
the story behind thatch-fodder , is mainly to use in stables and get the greenhouse chain UP
also people asked to merge my fodder with the Thatch of nat div which i did. some mods ask thatch to be used as building materials.
but also , they set it up so can be used as firewood to heat home which i didnt said no
but the main use of all this is still greenhouses.

about the hunter.... bah you have only 1 building and the hunter buildings are very dependant of what it cross its radius.
and in total you have 1 single hunter . 1000 food for 1 hunter is still alot.

it is not a feature you put on the ground and get all the 50 deers around be instantly killed like magic ^^
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 10:17:29 AM »
@brads3 , I can't say, if they use firewood and thatch fuel equally. I haven't looked at it that thorough. It seems so but maybe @RedKetchup knows. I just looked and found thatch in two buildings, both near the market. At the moment there's more thatch, than firewood in the market, so that might be the explanation.

It doesn't look like there will be much thatch and flowers in a normal forest circle, once new trees are planted. Maybe some at the outher edge, spread from close meadows.

I don't find a bundler is  such a good idea. The good thing with thatch as fuel in this mod, is that it could be used right away, without building anything. Perfect at the beginning of a game and also longer in a very small settlement (Adam and Eve). If you have to build a bundler first, you might as well build a chopper. And as Red says; it's primary there to be used as fodder. I have no stables yet, so I can't say, if there will be enough left for the horses. Maybe it works well. Maybe I will like it; see it as one more nice challenge, to distribute the thatch between the stables and the houses in a good way.

Yes, you're right @RedKetchup , it's one single hunter used a few years so the numbers don't say much and 1000 meat is a lot. That's why I said, I will write down some numbers. And I'm glad, that the normal hunter doesn't work like the crazy huntress in my North game, a while ago, who killed some 30 deer in a short time. ;) But I have seen, that the number of animals gets down after a while in other mods. Especially those, who uses one hunter in a smaller circle than yours. It was quite obvious, that the number of kills were larger then the growth.


Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2018, 01:17:42 PM »
NILLA,i take it from your pics that fodder-thatch is flagged as firewood. RED and i talked about those flags a while back. there were too many things under the misc and he changed it to help the fodder mod work smoother.i am curious as to your thought on the flags. when you hit the firewood limit will it stop the fodder now?
     i agree with you on a A&E start the thatch can be handy to burn.the game i am in now i have control by using my firewood limit.when i kept it down the houses used the thatch.as i increase the firewood they don't as much but will if a processor uses the firewood. it is a nice safety.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 07:37:09 AM »
This is a nice game; new things to discover all the time. But this is a cursed settlement! Look at the bottom of the first picture. That one with all the menus. There's bin a lot of deaths in a short time (not old age). Did you make any changes here @RedKetchup? Or is it just bad luck? And you were right about the overpowered meat production. It varies a lot, but normal-good years are too high. You can see some hunters menus cut in here as well. The annual meat production is everything between 360 and 1680.

I've built my stables and a greenhouse. It works well enough, even if some of the fodder is used as fuel. I've made some experimenting with more and less firewood in my store and have been looking around a bit more thorough. I think that they prefere firewood. Only if there's no firewood in the market (or closest stockpile) they take thatch. There was more thatch in the houses, when I had one vendor at the market. There was always thatch there, when I looked but not always firewood, the one vendor couldn't fill it fast enough. When I increased the number of vendors, the amount of thatch in the houses went down. I make the conclusion; if they can get firewood, they leave the fodder/thatch to the horses.

It looks like fodder/thatch has more than one "flag". It's stored on stockpiles for fuel, construction and some of it even lands in the fodder barn, seldom enough, unfortunately. (see second picture)

Despite, these disadvantages. The greenhouse chain works. The Fodder farmer produces, also when the chopper has reached its limit. It might be different the other way around, like @carolinafan95 tells in that other thread. I find the fodder production low. I remember times at the beginning, when it was ridiculously high. (Don't get me wrong, that's NOT what I want.) Maybe you have made the reduction a bit "too well". I don't know, @RedKetchup  how many stables you want one big meadow to suppost and how many greenhouses for one stable. If I look at my production numbers in this game;

-2 fodder farmer produces about 150 fodder (and about the same amount of flowers) every year. Say 1/3 of it is used as fuel. I don't think you can fully stop it.
-100 fodder can go to the stables. Together with the same amount of water, it makes 300 fertilizer (educated worker). Since I only need one greenhouse so far, I only have one worker in the stables. It produced 120-180 dung each year. But if you put 2 worker in the stables, I'm sure it will produce 300.
-One greenhouse produces about 2000 food. 2 fertilizer and 2 water gives about 28 food (I think there are small differences depending on the crop): One greenhouse needs around 140 fertilizer.

Conclusion:
1 meadow with 2 fodder farmer can support one stable with 2 worker, that can supply 2 greenhouses with fertilizer and produce 4000 food. You'll need some water as well, so say; 6,5 people making 4000 food. It's reasonable, but this way to produce, need more space than normal farming. I wouldn't mind, if the fodder production was doubled; if 2 fodderfarmer could support 2 stables with 2 worker each, that could support 4 greenhouses. 8000 food produced by 2+4+4+1 =11 people means 725 each. A good farmer can produce that, too. The area of meadow, stables and greenhouses is about 4000 tiles. You could produce a lot more food on that space, if you made fields (of cause more farmers than 8 are needed), so it would not be too overpowered.

In any case; the chain works. I would continue building it, even with the low fodderproduction. It's beautiful and nice.

One other thing, that's not beautiful and nice, are the messy stockpiles, with all the materials. I would like to have some storehouse. I've been looking for your NMT hardware and general stores. I haven't found them and I do miss them. I hope you have plans to add them or/and something else, where we can put all materials out of sight. One of the great things with the NMT: Ground floor; some kind of store, on top; homes. Always loved that idea. 

First picture

Death! Men and beast!

Second picture

The fodder barn, nice located close to the stables, far away from possible "burners", isn't very popular,! At least not for fodder! I've been watching people carrying their bundles, passing the barn, to put it on the marked stockpiles for fuel and construction materials.  :-\ ???
As my pal @brads3 always says; Bannis have a mind of their own!  ::)

Third picture

Messy stockpiles.

I don't fully know which material is stored on which of these specialized stockpiles. No big problem, I'll find out, but maybe that would be something to tell in a Wiki. I like these with a combination of wood/fuel and iron ore/iron. Very good idea.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 07:43:26 AM by Nilla »

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 01:03:17 PM »
     i don't envy the modders having to juggle things to find a balance. looks like RED has changed the hunters to be more like the tower hunters. those numbers do differ from year to year. the values of the fur and meat is different too. RED has it set randomly but i wonder if he did balance it by values in some way.years that you have more deer and leather are offset by years of bear and furs,which are valued higher. i am more used to them. i do like to use my mods to help push my leather up and my venison. i have the pine mod and RED's older hunting cabin. i don't mind the randomness of the tower hunters and variety. it is nce to have my other options as i have more uses of the leather than just coats.you will need more tailors since you have different coats at once.and you can have more butchers or meat processors. my bannies seem to let the duck meat stockpile and then make duck roasts.
      how do you like the new gathering ability? i notice your hunters got bored or didn't see deer so they collected herbs and mushrooms.at least your map doesn't seem to be growing as many onions as mine is. i think the system is neat and the bannies waste less when clearing or planting trees too.

        i am not sure what to say about your fodder.you have different numbers than the garden utility mod that i am using. i have over 600 fodder with 2 workers,almost 300 ferilizer also with 2 workers,feeding 2 greenhouses totaling 2350 food. 1 greenhouse is a ways away and these bannies aren't wanting to store fertilizer in the north market. any other time they would store it everywhere.the  stable runs out of fodder just as spring starts.you are claiming to prouce half as much fodder,and half of it is flowers. yet you claim more food.and as much fertilizer.
       i understand your reasoning but disagree with some of it.i do think you are right about the fodder being low.though apparently thestable is giving you the same output.i think your worker finds too many flowers. do you have a big enough well to run 2 stables and 4 greenhouses by itself? i would think you need closer to 3 wells to do that. i think 8000 total food is high. you do have to consider you have flowers that give high valued trade goods plus some is being burned.
         that being said,i do think the fodder should produce more than the way the garden utility is set. when RED fixed it from being too over-productive,i do think he dropped it too far. i am surprised that your fodder is so low but keeps the stable fed even.how bout we split the difference?1 fodder with 2 workers feeds 1 stable with 2 workers. but each stable supplies 3 greenhouses at 1500 food? if a player didn't have as many workers 1 at the fodder and stables would still give enough for 1 greenhouse.
          did RED also give you a cow stable that would produce milk as an option instead of the horse stable? that would benefit your food outputs a lot.hope i didn't confuse you too badly.

     

Offline adelegarland

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 03:07:02 PM »
@brads3
and another thing...   can't produce enough firewood, I think the fodder is counted as burnable and its messing with the output of the firewood cutters.  I'm not conversant with the way you figure the amounts in your post, but I've been playing all day and am having a bunch of trouble getting firewood and coal.   The coal is being used in almost every process of manufacture and so when I need it to make steel tools, there isn't any available.  I've been building mines and more mines to try to get enough and it just doesn't work.   Perhaps some of the processes that are using coal can use something else?

As for milk, red's Frisian cows give milk, but the cattle don't.  (Mind you - I am playing with all my other mods enabled, I want to test for compatibility issues)  I started with cattle and got no milk, purchased Frisians and yippee - Milk! 
Just my two and a half cents.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 03:20:31 PM »
did you increase the firewood and construction limits? are you using the stop burning coal mod? in your case,i would keep some notes. when you finish this map you may want to adjust the mod order to tweak things.with mine,i have like 4 types of cows.not all get used most of the time,depends on what the merchants send. with all your mods you must have lots of seeds for crops available.glad to see you haven't found conflicts.

Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2018, 04:44:26 PM »
This is a nice game; new things to discover all the time. But this is a cursed settlement! Look at the bottom of the first picture. That one with all the menus. There's bin a lot of deaths in a short time (not old age). Did you make any changes here @RedKetchup?

i think LOL you really have a cursed seed RNG number ^^ i didnt edited the % death numbers at all. you really have a bad seed for that.



Hunters i agree it is random, depending where you put your cabin, and the very different packs of different animal crossing its radius.
in my build presently, i ve reduced the overall % amount of packs roaming around by another -50% layer. it also helps the graphic game engine to have less things roaming around.

i think it is OK to have better hunting years... and worst hunting years. thats the way of the nature i think. we need to know that hunters now are doing more kills per year and it is probably normal that the animal population is not regenerating fast enough now. maybe i will have to look at that.

but Brad seems to be maybe confused ?  yes the hunters look more like a Watching Tower but you need to know that hunters are really hunting (not create food from thin air like the towers). I finally succeeded to do what was the real intention of towers should have got but i wasnt good enough to do that back in time.




but the berries LOL is still laughing at me . i did reduced the number of spawns by 50% and i am still getting too many like if i did nothing. i maybe have to look back at this again and try something else to reduce that. Keep in mind... thats good though for the  Tavern !!! tons of berries for making ale LOL




all the fooder chain numbers have changed when i deleted MY fodder files and adopted the Nat Div fodder files. People asked for a blend and a consolidation of the 2 technology(the 2 chains)
in GardenWall i was asking 12-16 items created while NatDivThatch is only 1-2 created. thats a HUGE difference. instead to have 12,000-16,000 fodder, you have 1000-2000 Fodder-Thatch.

and the difference also, NatDivThatch is a custom5(Construction), but also a Fuel and a WoodFuel. thats how Bartender set it up. I've took their files and i respected it entirely, i didnt made any change.
Maybe i should edit it ? maybe i should delete the "fuel" and "woodfuel" part of it ?

will it be less confusing ? and maybe be less of a destructive component for your prefered gaming habits ? for sure, it will change the dynamic of the current mod, i think overall it will make it harder.... (you will start to lose a lot more Logs to supply back the Firewood chain)

And I will do it :) i will delete "fuel" "woodfuel" flags and it will be back to "custom4 - Natural resource harvested not through mining. aka: Materials flag" (i will have to change flags of stables)
And yes i can do a "cow stable that produce milk" to compensate :)
That way it will stop to mess around with your firewood production :)




And hopefully @Nilla , i ll have some "closed" storage to offer you :) and better if you can give me exactly the name and utility of each building i should do for NMT3.0 RK Choice Ed. :) That way you will have exactly the storage buildings you will expect to have.




only Red Freisian and Freisian Cow give milk. Cattle should not give milk. Cattle gives double beef when slaughtered.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 05:55:00 PM by RedKetchup »
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Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2018, 05:47:09 PM »
RED,i  would hold up on changing the fodder-thatch limit flag. it would be better to let NILLA run it and give more feedback on that.
@adelegarland is using several mods. it is quite possable that another mod is messing with her.if you kept the thatch custom5,construction limit,then it shouldn't be affecting her firewood. i do hope she keeps some notes and plays with her mod order to see what affects it might have.
    don't mind me and NILLA,we agree and disagree at the same time a lot.i can understand the way you did the changes to fodder and stable outputs. the way you explainded it made sence.otherwise the fodder could take over the maps. finding a good balance is never easy.
   glad to hear the hunters are dependant on animal herds. that will make it more interesting.wonder what would happen with a hunter like from the mini or FO. mod? they are set to hunt deer. will they kill any animal and give deer or have less deer?
      BT had issues with the blueberry too. i think it was after he upgraded the nat div.they were taking over maps and chiking out the trees.it was toward the end of the blog on CC. not sure if he even fixed it.
    when you do markets,can you add a covered wagon for food and some other carts?  the game i am in at the moment i keep looking for something to move the misc,fertilizer. catys are handy to supply BS,woodcutters,greenhouses,tailors,etc.      thank you