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Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

Started by Nilla, February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM

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Nilla

I think it's time to report a bit of what @RedKetchup wanted to know as I started this game:
Quotecheck the carts how they working, efficacity, holding the right things, etc.
check the new numbers :)

Charts

I have built most of the charts. They work fine. They don't hold very much, but are small, so that's alright. Sometimes I use a vendor in it and sometimes not. If there's no vendor, the chart works as a small specialized stockpile.

As I first tried them, I wasn't sure how useful the charts for heavier material would be; a little more than 100 logs or 50 iron/other metals isn't much. But it works. On one location, where I had 2 chopper with 3 worker in each, one vendor had no problems to hold enough logs in the chart. I never saw less than about 60. I guess another full chopper could have been located there as well without problems.

Numbers

First, I have seen, that you forgot/changed your mind about to change the tradevalue for cream, like you said you would. It's still 4.

I like the new tradevalues. The products I use; cheese, pie, perfume are still good export products.

I also produce some bread for my population. It's better than it was, but I still think the bakery adds too little food value. My bakeries produce average about 500 bread for each baker. To make 500 bread you need 300 flour. This means the bakery only produces 200 food. That's less than most other food producers.

The fish pond now looks reasonable; 350-400 fish. Though I haven't run them very long and only with one fisher(this map has a lot of water to put other fisher.) The canalfisher from the 6 tiles canal catches more  ~500 , 4 tiles less 250-300.




RedKetchup

cream is now 3 value ( i changed it yesterday when i gone though smurphys spreadsheet.)
i can try to make up the pond just a little bit and go check my templates about the canal fishing docks.

to make 500 bread you need 300 flour which is 187.5 corn (or wheat, rye, oats ect)
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Nilla

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 29, 2018, 03:33:47 PM
i can try to make up the pond just a little bit and go check my templates about the canal fishing docks.

to make 500 bread you need 300 flour which is 187.5 corn (or wheat, rye, oats ect)

I find the fishpond alright the way it is now. It's a simple construction, you can build many and put 4 fisher in it. Maybe the canalfisher on the wide parts give a bit too much. I don't know, if the 8 tile fisher gives even more with more water. I seldom build that wide. (Feeling pity for my Bannis, that have to dig such a wide canal for the tiny ships ;) )

But as I said, I find the bread too low. If we continue your calculation; 4 worker; 1 miller and 3 baker make about 1500 bread, using around 550 grain. That's less than 250 for each worker. It's not a complicated process, you only need one input, but a fisher, apiary, well.... is even simpler. You can answer; but the value of bread increases. Yes it does. If we recalculate; these 4 people makes a trade value of 3000 using 550 as input, that's around 600 each.

I will not say like @smurphys7; that I could buy 600 corn from these 187,5 I had from the start. It's not that easy. A part of it will always be eaten by your Bannis. How much depends on many things; how much food you have in general, how much of it is grain, how many traders you have and how many other trade products they must collect, how big is your settlement; how many vendors spread the bread over the map and makes the work for the trader more difficult and if you need many traders to collect as much as possible, maybe you should split the production on more than 4 workers. There are probably more. That's why I say, his value/time numbers have a limited use. Banished is too complex to be described in simple numbers. They can only be a help in some situations. It's good that way. Otherwise I think, we would have been boored after a few weeks playing. But I think you already knew, @RedKetchup. You're a clever guy. Just nicer and more polite then I am.

But again, I don't find bread a good trading product. I would rather use it to feed the population, comparable in production numbers with other producer of basic food. If I want to use the bakery for export, I can produce pie, cake or maybe even try some of the other more difficult products.

But as I always say; it´s your mod. You make it your way! I´m fine with that.


RedKetchup

the profit is too low ? or the number of bread done per year is too low ?
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Nilla

I find that the profit is OK, but the production too low. As i said I want to produce bread for the population, not to trade. If you want to please me, I would increase the production with about 50% but set the price to 1. If you change the recipe or set the work time down, doesn't really matter. Now, 1 mill can support about 3 bakeries, producing bread. I find that's OK. If you set the worktime down, we need more mills, so maybe it's better to change the recipe.

But of course, I'm not the only one to please, so I'll be fine with what ever you'll decide. :)

RedKetchup

if i lower the time it takes to make 1 shot of bread (work required) all the other product will be also faster. do the other items need also being faster ?
if not... then i ll have to take more flour and make more bread in one shot
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Nilla

I use a big map, but as I said; 50% built. And I just looked once. I've never noticed that they would disappear. I only looked because @smurphys7 missed them. Last year my 11*2 hunters killed 2 boar and this year (winter) only one. So they are pretty rare and I guess they aren't present every time we look around.

Sorry wrong, that should be at that other thread.


To bread.

I find the other products are good as they are. 500 pies give a profit of 1100, that's enough

I've looked in my old notes, if they are right DS baker makes 40 bread from 25 flour. The Nordic bakery 40 bread from 24.

RedKetchup

so now bread will take 14 flour and make 20-28 bread with it instead of 10 flour for 14-20 bread
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Nilla

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 30, 2018, 05:13:42 PM
so now bread will take 14 flour and make 20-28 bread with it instead of 10 flour for 14-20 bread

OK, I will try it and see how it works. Have you also changed the trade value of bread?

It looks like our @RedKetchup soon will spend us a new version from this nice mod. I'm looking forward on many of the announced changes. I also find, that I have tried all I wanted to test in the settlement Skylindorm. So I'm ready for a new game with some new challenges. But first I will make a small summary with some conclusions. (sorry as usual the summary hasn't turned out small)  :-[

1 conclusion: it's not too hard to build the basic buildings like trading port, town hall and doctor, even if they need some "advanced building materials"


....but you need to "micromanage" the production buildings for these materials at the biginning. You don't need so much lumber, sand, glass and copper, that it has to be produced all the time. Just produce what you need for your plans (and maybe a little extra  for future building projects)

2. conclusion; the production of these advanced building materials works, when you want to expand a settlement fast with only NMT brick houses


The whole game I've tried to build a house for each new couple as soon as possible, mostly my favourite NMT houses (sand bricks with orange brick roofs). With some small exceptions, it has worked well. You don't need to "spam" the map with production sites. A few of each are enough. The problems have been low productivity sometimes, because the Bannis love to carry some things around (here clay and sand) if possible to the most remote places.

I have bought a little glass and brick from time to time, not much, I could have done without it, but especially glass is not more expensive to buy than to produce (as @smurphys7 has said in that other thread). Glass is a small product, so it hasn't a big impact on the game, but if you want to make glass more balanced, @RedKetchup, I would suggest to set the trade price higher. Glass used to be expensive, to double the price would be alright.

3. conclusion: you can support a larger settlement with the output from the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain.

It's a bit more tricky and less profitable than farming, but it works. The main problem is to have enough fodder, fertilizer and later in the game also water, close your production sites. As I said about sand and clay; Bannis love to carry around things. If you find a possible store without fertilizer, it's most likely close to a greenhouse!  :P This is a challenge and I have a few more ideas, I want to test in my future games.

But even if you don't like "playing around with optimization" of the sites like I do, the chain would work. Just build another greenhouse and accept a lower production in each. It's a good idea to locate a small chart for materials close to greenhouses, with or without vendor. It will be filled with sand and clay from time to time, so I think it's also a good idea to locate greenhouses, kiln and glassmaker close to eachother.

4. conclusion; the gem-jewels chain makes a lot of fun

It's probably no good business to mine for gems, gold and silver. (I haven't made any calculations, it's more a feeling). You'll need an awful lot of random mines to find enough gems to run a gemcutter continuously. But I see this more as an "achievement". If you have a settlement with a healthy economy, you can afford to establish this chain. It has a piece of gambling, that's fun. (A gem is worth 200, a gemcutter will most likely find an amethyst or topaz, worth 60 or 80 but in rare occasions, he's lucky and finds a diamond worth 1000.) It's something new to Banished and I will surely try the announced changes.

5. conclusion; this is a nice mod

This is a mod for everyone. It's a mod that's very good to play as single mod, it adds a lot of new things. The basic gameplay is still vanilla, so I see no problems in combining it with many other mods. I don't think, that it's too hard, if you don't have much experience in Banished, but it also gives a few challenges for more experinced players. It has some good compromises between keeping the normal Banished gameplay and reducing some of its worse balancing/designing issues. As always, there are things, that can be developed. We know, that you are working on it. You can be proud of this mod, @RedKetchup!

Finally I'll show a few impressions and some graphs from my settlement.

Gatherer

Quote from: Nilla on March 31, 2018, 03:36:23 AM
3. conclusion: you can support a larger settlement with the output from the fodder-fertilizer-greenhouse chain.

It's a bit more tricky and less profitable than farming, but it works. The main problem is to have enough fodder, fertilizer and later in the game also water, close your production sites. As I said about sand and clay; Bannis love to carry around things. If you find a possible store without fertilizer, it's most likely close to a greenhouse!  :P This is a challenge and I have a few more ideas, I want to test in my future games.


This can be solved by hijacking one of the two still unused flags.
There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

RedKetchup

Thanks you ALOT @Nilla for all your conclusions :) i like very much the design of your town :)
it looks great ! it looks very great !!

about bread: the price is set at 3 value per bread cause you did asked me to lower it the other day :)

the goal for the gem chain is not to make it a primary source of the main economy but more like a random powerful extra.
An extra that you can get from time to time.

you got up to 1300 citizens ? thats good. although i find the unemployment high, 150 laborers, it equals to 12% ?

i can give a little help to the greenhouse chain but in a way, i find the food come too easy overall. Lately, i am thinking to lower the food numbers all across the board so people would need more people working for food :P
more jobs for everyone ^^

i know i can hijack one of the 2 remaining flags.. but prefer to wait in case i need it later :)

should have a new built later tonight :)
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Nilla

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
about bread: the price is set at 3 value per bread cause you did asked me to lower it the other day :)

I rather thought of 1 as trade value. Now it's 2, so 3 would be higher; as high as cake.

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
you got up to 1300 citizens ? thats good. although i find the unemployment high, 150 laborers, it equals to 12% ?

12% laborers isn't very much. I use to say; 10-15% of the worksforce ought to be laborers in an efficient settlement. This is a little more, but for me unusually low. It looks like I hid the profession menu but I have much more vendors and traders than I need; 129 vendors and 48 traders and a lot of miners. If you remember that small map I filled, the one I used all the wells to solve the food issue. It had about 1500 inhabitants. I just looked at my last screenshot; there were 568 unemployed. ! But it was an efficient farming society.

Quote from: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
i can give a little help to the greenhouse chain but in a way, i find the food come too easy overall. Lately, i am thinking to lower the food numbers all across the board so people would need more people working for food :P
more jobs for everyone ^^

Interesting idea. You saw my last game; it was actually possible to build a settlement where the people need the double amount of food. It wasn't easy and there was certainly not too many laborers. I didn't manage to have my 10% all the time.

Going the other way around to reduce some of the "worse" food producer, is something I would like. But would everyone like it? But I'm confident that you will find a way. You are good in making compromises, that work well. Just look at your chopper! :)


Quote from: RedKetchup on March 31, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
should have a new built later tonight :)

:)

I forgot to tell one thing: I'm starting to get these lags and graphic "glitches" already at 1300 inhabitants. I can't remember that I noticed anything on that small map (this is a big map). It's not troublesome yet, but as I said, I haven't noticed it in the other games and it's much earlier than in a vanilla game. Now I don't know,  if it's the mod that causes this or something else. I haven't made anything to reduce the lags like, change graphic settings or use some mods to reduce smoke, rain.... it's not that bad, yetm, just wanted to tell.

brads3

Nilla,did you notice any issues with the crops not losing food once hit with cold? whatever is already produced on the fields doesn't rot or freeze.it just waits for the farmers.

pic: produce not being hurt by frost.lettuce should have frosted,should be losing tomatoes.the growth bar doesn't show damage due to cold.fields seem dependant on summer temps only. if it is warm enough, they grow.whatever is produced,waits for the farmers.some crops should be more affected by cold than others.

RedKetchup

oh ok, i ll put it down to 2 value then :P

yeah i can maybe nerf more the worst one than be very gentle overall ^^


about lag... bah you know , it is normal there is a little bit more lag... i put so much stuff ! but the main lag comes still from the game pathing itself.

i ll see during the week if i can make a no-smoke addon for it.
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RedKetchup

Quote from: brads3 on March 31, 2018, 06:53:18 AM
Nilla,did you notice any issues with the crops not losing food once hit with cold? whatever is already produced on the fields doesn't rot or freeze.it just waits for the farmers.

pic: produce not being hurt by frost.lettuce should have frosted,should be losing tomatoes.the growth bar doesn't show damage due to cold.fields seem dependant on summer temps only. if it is warm enough, they grow.whatever is produced,waits for the farmers.some crops should be more affected by cold than others.

surely it comes from 1 from your other mods because i assure you, if it doesnt get harvested, the food get wasted quickly
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