I do not believe Laborers significantly affect production of efficient towns. I have done simple tests for Fishing, Gathering, Hunting, Tailors, Woodcutting, Forestry, and Brewers. Laborers had only a very small effect. The effect was smaller than having another citizen employed as whatever job.
At all points in time, in all scenarios, it is always more effective to have more employed citizens than Laborers.
Please, demonstrate to me otherwise.
Do Laborers increase Production? Yes. Do Laborers increase Production significantly? Absolutely not. Instead of a Laborer that citizen would be better employed as anything else: another Gatherer, Farmer, Fisher, Woodcutter, Forester etc.
Save Game File (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qCimzNylxbHcfkIs-8rV4v6JtRQbTHJ8). I modified my town that survived for 5,000 years with no human interaction.
I employed Hunters, Gatherers, Woodcutters, Foresters, Tailors, and Brewers. I ran the simulation for 5 years and recorded the production. Then, I reloaded the save and as citizens became adults I added the adults to the Quarry so I always only had 1 Laborer.
So in example one I had 10 Laborers and roughly 30 employed workers in the final recorded year. In example two I had roughly 40 employed workers, 10 of whom were useless cutting rocks.
The difference in production is negligible.
Food went from 909 food per year per worker to 896.
Woodcutter from 237 to 229.
Foresters from 45 to 44.
Brewers and Tailors had virtually no difference.
The difference is likely explained by changing citizens jobs and forcing citizens to relocate when I changed Laborers to Stonecutters. The difference between Laborers to no Laborers is essentially non-existent.
Here is a simple Fishing example (https://drive.google.com/open?id=189uHM6xeW9ewC8NGVKXgkA2hfQrl63We).
The simple conclusion is Laborers are NOT vital. A percentage of your work force as Laborers is a WASTE. Those workers would be better efficiently employed.
Show me a town with Laborers. I will employ the Laborers and increase the town's production. If Laborers were "vital" or "productive" then there is some town, somewhere, that I would be unable to employ the citizens to increase production. Perhaps the lone example would be a town that fills the map entirely. That would be the exception that proves the rule.
What are your thoughts about keeping enough laborers to cover education if a teacher dies? So maybe laborers = schools +1?
At all points in time in all scenarios? Laborers are needed to clear land, cut trees and gather resources, and bring building material to building sites especially early in the game. Production will be very low without enough laborers to get production buildings built. I would also think the size and type of map would make a difference.
@smurphys7 So then as laborers are produced you instantly fill a job position? Do you have enough laborers that way to replace people dying of old age? You solely rely on builders to clear building sites, gather all the mats needed and build?
how many vendors and markets do you have? i try to scatter laborers around the map. my theory is these extra workers help carry and drop goods for the so the workers have supplies closer to them. say you need 4 workers in a forest,i'll build 3 houses. the extra 2 become laborers and drop tools,firewood,and clothing for the forest workers.same thing with 2 fields build 2 houses,so you have 2 extra workers. as the town grows some of these extra workers do become clerics,processors,etc. as others have pointed out, this also covers deaths. any time walking is taken away from production.
I am not disagreeing with the notion that you should use Laborers to remove rocks, stones, iron and carry goods to construction sites. I am not disagreeing about keeping a Laborer to replace a dying employed worker.
I am speaking, solely, and specifically, to the notion that having Laborers is a good thing because it increases the production of everything else. I have seen this notion stated as true multiple times, in multiple places.
I do not believe this notion is true. I have seen no evidence of this occurring. In fact, I have only seen evidence to the contrary.
One example: (https://old.reddit.com/r/Banished/comments/d6esln/newbie_here_i_need_help_my_people_are_starving/)
QuoteAlso, make sure you leave some population as laborers, they don't just gather raw materials, they also bring food and finished goods to storage, and your dumbass people will starve if food is just sitting in baskets all over town and not in barns or markets.
Again, this notion is untrue. As you have all said, keep a Laborers for removing materials, bringing materials to construction sites, and replacing dead workers BUT Laborers are NOT important for "bringing food and finished goods to storage". That part, and that part specifically, has no evidence of actually creating a significant increase in production.
Example Two (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2351.msg48163#msg48163):
QuoteThey produce the goods, and laborers pick up the goods and take them to storage. This is why it is so important to have a good pool of laborers in your town.
This pool of Laborers is NOT important and does NOT significantly affect production. Please, demonstrate to me otherwise.
I don't ever keep that many laborers either. All bannies will act as laborers when their job quota's are filled or they have nothing else to do. Builders, for instance, will act as laborers until something needs built. So, if you are a fast player constantly building, you'll want to have more builders so you always have enough to keep up with your building demands. If you aren't building anything, those builders act as laborers.
You always want some laborers around in order to fill jobs when new jobs are available or when people die. Laborers are the only ones who can take over a job unless you have extra's set for a particular job. The teacher, for instance, is a situation where if one dies all the kids leave school so I always have an extra teacher set who will function as a laborer since they have no school to work at. 3 schools... 4 teachers... etc. They will, of course, take over as teacher if one dies. This extra teacher cannot take over for any other job unless they are set back to laborer first, setting back to 3 teachers instead of 4.
So that's how I manage things. Laborers are basically dependents, they don't produce anything yet require all the same stuff as workers, which makes them a liability in the grand scheme. You have to be functioning at near peak production for everything in order to support a bunch laborers.
As for the key question, do they really benefit and maximize production.... hard to say since I've never monitored anything that close. All I can say is that I tend to manage just fine without having a bunch of them so I'd say they aren't that critical. I've maxed out more towns then I can recall and have twice accomplished the one map all achievements challenge without having lots of laborers.
i think your test is too specific to your 1 case of a ap that is stable and not growing. if youy start a new game and set everyone to working,you would see different. yes the wood cutter will go cut logs when he is out of them,however this takes time away from his wood cutting.so now his production will be lower.this applies to the tailor and blacksmith as well.so too the buider be slower, even at clearing land they are slower than laborers.
not sure what your point is. are you trying to prove we dont eed laborers? if it is to show that work places can be ust as productive without the help, you still are very case specific. as i pointed out even in a built ma,it will require vendors working to move goods in place of the laborers.arket and vendors is a whole different discussion. with mods,these guys have their own personaity to each 1.
Quote from: brads3 on December 04, 2019, 11:07:09 AM
if youy start a new game and set everyone to working,you would see different.
I do not experience this when I start new games. Please give me an unmodded example town where this is true.
Quoteyes the wood cutter will go cut logs when he is out of them,however this takes time away from his wood cutting.so now his production will be lower.
This issue is a lack of logs. This example is NOT increased production because Laborers carry production from the Woodcutter to the stockpile.
From the Banished WIKI - Laborer Tasks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clearing the terrain of trees, rocks and iron
Carrying raw materials to storage
Carrying raw materials from storage to construction sites
Laborers are critical to overall success of a village, you can't make it without them, but as I mentioned, many citizens will function as laborers when needed. So having excessive laborers isn't necessarily required unless the game is being played in yet another unique style. This is typically only a problem if minimal supplies are being managed. If you have 50 citizens and your clothing quota is 10, well... yeah... losing that tailor as he goes off to be a laborer will cause problems. Same with any other supply. That's the beauty of the game, so many ways to manage your own society. However, that also makes it hard to guide anyone else without knowing everything about their style of play.
Quote from: brads3 on December 04, 2019, 11:07:09 AMeven at clearing land they are slower than laborers.
I have never heard of this and don't believe it's true. Any Bannie with a profession will act exactly like any other laborer when they have nothing to do. Their proficiency isn't penalized for not being a full time laborer.
I believe what you are referring to is when placing a farm or orchard, the builders become responsible for clearing the land and building the shelter. Well, it's only 2 builders doing all the clearing and building at that point. They are just as fast as laborers, but it's only 2 of them. Where if you clear the land first, all available laborers will come to help out. so that's the difference in speed.
Principally, I think you are right
@smurphys7. Say; you have 3 gatherers and 1 labourer. The gatherers gather (and carry their stuff out of the wood if necessary), the labourer only carries things out of the wood and if there´s nothing to carry, he idles. If he is a gatherer he gathers food in that idling time. This will give you more food out of that wood, even if each person with the profession "gatherer" will produce less. I´m pretty sure, here is the confusion; if you want each gatherer to be more productive, let the labourer carry the stuff out of the wood but if you have the possibility to let him gather as well, it will always be more.
When Banished was new, I looked at these things as well. I mentioned gatherers in my example because if you have labourers, they do carry the blueberries and mushrooms. Other professions like farmers and fishers mostly carry their stuff to the barns themselves, even if there are labourers.
Now a Banished game isn´t always that simple. It has been said; you need labourers for other things. Have you looked at vendors and distribution of goods? I don´t think it´s like
@brads3 says either; that labourers help vendors but I´ve seen the opposite; that vendors do labourer´s work instead of filling their markets. And you have my "problem" in most of my games where I have a lot of labourers. There´s no need to assign more professionals. The barns are full; there are more traders and vendors that I need, what am I supposed to do with all these people? Let them do some carrying and have a good life.
NILLA, i didn't mean that the laborers help the vendors.places where i rely on laborers can be replaced by using more markets. i scatter laborers houses so there are extra workers in my outer forest areas.these extra workers will drop goods. any goods that the laborers drop saves the forest workers time traveling to find those items. instead of relying on laborers,SMURPHYS must be using more vendors and markets.this might work in a vanilla game and a map that has been built.
I use NO markets whatsoever for these examples.
The concept that "Laborers are NOT important for their ability to move produced goods so employed citizens can spend more time working" is true ALL the time.
It isn't merely true on established maps, it isn't merely true when you just start... it is true ALL the time.
Show me any examples where Laborers are significantly beneficial for their ability to move produced goods in assistance of other workers, please.
The ONLY exception is when the map is entirely full and there is no option to add more employed workers.
I posted Save Game Files AND Videos. Do I need to post MORE examples?!
I tend to believe you. One aspect is idling.
Dedicated workers go from job to help laborers without idling. Then back to their job.
Laborers idle quite a lot between random chores. Must be a hidden AI setting.
Maybe workers are prioritized in the calculations? That would explain your theory.
I agree, I think the employed workers get some priority.
This is speculation: I believe a large reason is the Laborer Queue. All jobs are put into a queue. Cutting logs, stone, iron, carrying materials to work sites, building work sites, carrying created goods, etc. all of it... all good into the queue.
Employed Workers do Laborer jobs that JUMP the queue for their specific building. Laborers only wait for the job to come to the top of the queue.
For example, Fishing Docks. Each time a Basket of Fish is created that goes to the bottom/back/end of the Laborer Queue to be carried to a Barn. A laborer will not carry it away until all the preceding Laborer jobs are completed or "in the process of being completed" by another Laborer. However, a Fishing Dock worker WILL carry those items away like a Laborer without looking at the rest of the queue.
Most produced goods are carried away by employed workers even if you have 75% of your population as idle Laborers. Yes, I DO have towns with 75% of the people as adult, unemployed, laborers. Even in that town, I can watch Gatherers, Fisherman, and Woodcutters carry their own products to storage.
The frequency that Laborers actually carry goods is quite low.
@smurphys7 I think you just described the main difference very well when it comes to how things are queued. This is why there is a priority function where you can change it up and make something else a priority.
As an example... a land clearing gets set with 100 items to clear and you have 10 laborers. Each laborer will clear an item and get reassigned until the entire land is cleared, so these 10 laborers will be tied up that entire time unless the priority function is used to reassign more priority to something else. As you said, when a fish basket is ready to be picked up, it's at the bottom of that 100 queue. Since part of a workers job is to deliver their products to the nearest storage, they will take care of that themselves before the laborers will. I can't imagine anyone having the time to micromanage at that level to set priority every time production building has a supply to deliver, that would be madness. So, yeah, the only time laborers can make a real difference is if you have an extreme abundance and that takes a very established village running at peak capacity in order to support that many dependents and that's usually not the scenario most of the time. A player really onlys needs just enough laborers to handle the speed at which they play.
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 05, 2019, 12:40:45 PM
@smurphys7 So, yeah, the only time laborers can make a real difference is if you have an extreme abundance and that takes a very established village running at peak capacity in order to support that many dependents and that's usually not the scenario most of the time.
Even in this described scenario, Laborers don't make a significant difference in production.
I happen to have a town that has 68 Laborers and 202 total citizens. There are 54 employed citizens. I haven't clicked anything in 5,000 game years.
Let's watch a Forester and see how often a Laborer helps carry the goods. I picked a random Forester. Over 5 minutes I watched her cut down 10 Trees. Three she picked up the wood immediately, 4 she left the wood and picked it up later, and three times Laborers came and picked up the wood.
Video (https://streamable.com/edit/9yxan)
Perhaps no stockpile nearby was a factor? Perhaps if there is another fully grown tree immediately ready to cut down she leaves the logs for someone else and gets another tree?
I don't know. You can download the save HERE (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tmHrWbseIDDKsJxbwk4UuxpL06dUK34b) if you want to stare at random Foresters, Gatherers or whatever :P
I would be VERY pleased is someone could demonstrate a test like this that showed me that Laborers were effective at hauling goods. Laborers didn't increase this Forester's production by 30%. Nearly all of this Foresters time is spent running around in circles and only a fraction of their time spent is on the extra long trip to the stockpile. Only that fraction of time is helped 30% of the time.
When the stockpile/barns are available and close by that time saved by Laborers, which doesn't happen often, is insignificant.
@smurphys7 I was thinking more like 500 citizens with 200 of them being laborers. I feel like if you get enough people running around, there will likely be one close enough to be assigned quickly to something. I have no data to back this up, don't scrutinize the game at this level. Logically speaking, it just seems to make sense that if workers don't have to leave to be laborers, they would make more progress. But Banished isn't exactly the most ironed out game either is it? I don't have the patience to monitor a game for that long, especially on something that ultimately hasn't affected or concerned me in all the rounds I've played over the years.
Laborers don't run around. They idle and idle locations.
When the game assigns jobs Builder and Laborer jobs are given a high priority (I think), then employed workers, and then "leftovers" are made Laborers wherever homes are furthest from jobs.
So the town I linked had 70 of 200 Adults as Laborers. If I order the bottom right Forest to be removed, 70 Adults in the bottom right-most part of my town will become Laborers. Home-Work-Storage all being close together will be devastated because, inevitably, many Gatherer setups in the bottom right will have all Laborers living nearby. Those Gathering Huts will have to "ship in" the workers from far away.
What may have happened is players tested Laborers long ago and missed this concept. You can do it in the save of Permanence. Load the game, run it for 10 years. You will get a baseline with TONS of Laborers. Then load the game again, order the entire forest in a corner removed, and run it for another 10 years. Production will DRASTICALLY be reduced. You might think "See, this proves Laborers are effective, when I made the Laborers not help with production then production dropped drastically." Technically, yes, production dropped drastically.
What really happened is half the town didn't live close to their jobs. We all know when you hit the pathing tool and see a Yellow Line that wanders off the screen productive will be terrible.
When I tested Permanence with Laborers I intentionally moved ~30 of the houses to a corner of the map. Then, when I ordered the removal of the Forest in that corner, I preserved "Home - Work - Storage" everywhere else.
The original, untouched version of Permanence has additional houses EVERYWHERE. There are Laborers living next to each and every Gathering Hut. Each Gathering Hut setup employs 3 Gatherers are 1 Forester. Nothing else. No Hunters, Herbalist etc. Each Gathering Hut also has 4 Houses. That ensures that each and every Gathering Hut setup has an abundance of Laborers immediately nearby.
@smurphys7 You took "running around" a bit literal there. I just meant if you have enough laborers, there is a higher chance they will be spread out among all the houses and wherever there is a task needing done, a laborer is more likely to be close and available.
I agree that a poorly setup town will function inefficiently, this is well known. If you only have just enough housing for the jobs nearby, of course there won't be any housing available for laborers, they will have to be elsewhere. Like a forest hub, if you don't provide some extra housing, there won't be any laborers living in the hub they will have to come from town or some other area further away.
Bottom line, I agree that it's better to have Bannies employed then waiting around as laborers. As I said before, I typically don't have that many laborers. I think it's wise to keep around 5 to 10 depending on size of population, but that fits my style of game play.
But I'm going to bow out of this conversation, it's really not for me.
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 06, 2019, 07:29:14 AM
@smurphys7
Bottom line, I agree that it's better to have Bannies employed then waiting around as laborers. As I said before, I typically don't have that many laborers. I think it's wise to keep around 5 to 10 depending on size of population, but that fits my style of game play.
But I'm going to bow out of this conversation, it's really not for me.
that says a lot and i agree with it mostly. in the beginning of the map,i can put everyone to work and control them with the limits to build the base camp or town. the 1st set of children become laborers and the limits are increased to stockpile supplies. after many years, the 5-10 laborer count becomes a % of the popuation not just 5-10 bannies.
as
@theonlywanderer points out,much is about playstyle. on a very large map, i find SMURPHY's idea that housing laborers is priority flawed. in my experience, builders are moved closer to the new construction areas 1st and laborers are last ,even below workplace workers. as i expand farther from the start center work of clearing land takes more time and is slower. the game moves the builders which are needed AFTER the clearing and building supplies moved to the construction projects. building houses in these far out zones works to speed the process, if you keep the builder count down and build more houses than the builders need.
that being said we are talking different scenarios. 1 is building a modded map and the other is a vanilla town functioning that was built already. mods can have different effects some of which i calll "piggy-backed coding". a mod is made to do certain things. when the mod is zipped for us to download sometimes an extra piece or lines of coding gets accidently oved with the new mod. this does not happen on purpose nor does it happen often especially with WOB moddders. for example a sub mod or addon from CC can cause the pastures to produce feathers.
we players do not see inside the coding. some of the effects from piggy backed coding can be subtle and might have effects we don't even see. since my games are heavily modded and use older mods, my games may play very different than other players. what i say may not be normal. it is o'k cause i never want to be normal anyhow ;)
Just now saw this topic. I did some testing on this a few years back. Ref posts #170-178 in this thread:
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=726.170