World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on December 10, 2017, 04:44:06 AM

Title: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 10, 2017, 04:44:06 AM
So, friends, here I am: Back again to my testing.
 
I haven't really started to play. I had to upgrade the game, I still had the beta. But I took a look and have a few comments, just from looking. The pictures might be a bit dull, I made them more to remember my thoughts for this blog but I will use them anyway.

First picture

I see, that there are some new symbols and menu possibilities. No big deal, but why change the symbols? Even if yours might be better, we are used to the old ones. But it's good to be able to choose some menus of different size.

You may see, that I've chosen the "shepherds" starting conditions. Never played that before as far as I can remember. I very much like the "survivor" start. It's really fun and tricky. But since I haven't played any Banished the last ½ year, I think it's wiser to start with something less challenging. But at least I choose a harsh climate and disasters on.

Second picture

There are some building materials, I don't know what it is and even less know, how to get. I don't mind and I'm confident, that I will find out. It's nice, that we finally can build with more than 3 materials.

Third picture

This might be a minor flaw. This is the only forester I can find or did I miss anything? I think, that most of us want foresters as one of the first buildings. For this one you need glass. As far as I can understand, it's not a very early building material. The building looks great but I don't find it fit to the small viking/ medieval Scandinavian buildings. It's more Russian 1900th century. Perfect together with the izba (and the red Scandinavian houses).

It's not a real problem. I wanted to play the North "pure", without other mods, but I guess, I will have to load at least one more mod. It will probably be one of Kid's; Forest outpost and Tiny both have simple foresters, that will fit.

Fourth picture

My greatest disappointment. :( ;)


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Abandoned on December 10, 2017, 05:09:00 AM
Nice to have Wise Nordic Woman back in The North @Nilla   :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 10, 2017, 08:02:22 AM
great to see you back. did yo enjoy your year vacation or were you kidnapped instead?we was worried for a while that you fell in a glacier.

         glad to see the toolbar pics. that keeps us in suspence of what might be coming.i did a few map blogs where i tried to give different views of the tools.it is another way to showcase modsi see some of why he did that,to show that the tools under it are changed in some way.
        you answered my question already. i need to upgrade again. i am still under beta 1.07.i just loaded it and was adding mods when it was upgraded to expand the building requirements. since there isn't many mods yet that use it,i held up thinking there might be more changes. that was a crazy spring. the modders were busy upgrading mods with the 1.07 and community icon both at the same time.then they kept getting bored and made new mods.it was fun trying to keep up.it was such a chore to redo so many of their mods. i tried to give them time to upgrade but they kept making new stuff at the same time.
        since you are a rookie again,be aware of the new flags.not sure how much TOM used them. i am cirious as to any differences from the other modders.  storage has changed. you won't notice it as much since you haven't added other mods. we have to watch where we put storafe and which we use where more than before. some stuff won't store like before and if you overfill a shed with a new flag item, things back up. i filled the start pile with thatch,and then nobody could clear and build farther. EB made some good market sets to help solve this.there is times 1.06 mods are handy. since they won't store new items,they move needed stuff to the bannies. since they can't store lumber,glass,or minerals,the old sets push more food,tools,and clothing. the whole storage system is a ongoing learning curve.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 10, 2017, 12:02:00 PM
No glaciers, no kidnapping. Just a bit time do do other things, than Banished playing and writing about it. People who know me longer, knows I've made some brakes like this from time to time in the past, too. But I knew all the time, that one day, I would be back. This game and this community are much too nice, to be put by side for a very long time.

I actually played a few years this afternoon and I have some first impressions and a few questions/requests/suggestions to @Tom Sawyer. Again I'll use the screenshots I made for myself to remember, what I wanted to talk about. I had to start a new game because yesterday evening I just took a look and didn't save anything. The name of the new town is the random Sigurdo.  It´s a bit cool, because I think Sigurd is an old Nordic name.

First picture

July year 2. My 3 families have got homes. The sheep got a pasture. We have some food, firewood and basic building materials. (There's one small forester from Kid's Forest outpost mod in the south). Next quest; tools and clothing. I will use the possibilities in the North as far as possible. Vanilla buildings and buildings from other mods will only be used, if I see no other option.

For tool production we will need charcoal. So after the chopper a stack was built, then I went for the bloomery. To construct it, we will need clay. OK, that make sense. A large claypit now at the beginning? Makes no sense. But I have discovered a long time ago, that @Tom Sawyer hardly makes anything that doesn't make sense. And here is a possibility to make a mini clay pit as one of the instant tools. It's not so easy, because the spot, where you build this pit, can't be used for anything else later. And planning far ahead is not my strength. You can see the small brownish circle close to the menus. That's my mini pit. It's not a big thing, and I don't know, if it's possible to have the sign, that the pit is closed. It would also be nice, if it was possible to see, how much clay is collected that (and last) year, like at other "normal" menus.

The picture shows all the things, that could be made at the farmers workplace. We need clothes and have a lot of wool. So, wool coats it is. With the shepherd start I'm pretty sure it will work,  but I don't think it will work with less (or no) sheep from the start (each coat need 4 wool with these uneducated worker). It doesn't seem like the workshop could process hide from deer. I think it should. If you don't have all these sheep, you will have to build the large vanilla tailor right at the start (or better some modded smaller version, if one work with the deer hide). It would be a pity. I like the idea, that all necessary things could be made in these workshops from the start; less efficient, than in a larger specialized building, but enough to support a small initial population. I´m pretty sure, that these kind of settlers knew how to prepare deer hide for clothing.

Second picture


The instant hunter has been changed. You don't need to assign a hunter. A laborer does the kill. I don't know if it's an improvement. It's easier, but it's also easier to forget, that you have put a hunter somewhere and a laborer walks around in the circle, looking for a prey, instead of doing something useful. I will not say, that I liked the old version better, I just want to know your motives, Tom. It would also be nice to be able to see at the menu, how much meat/hide was collected.

You can also see the workshop. It can make iron, tools, barrows and traps. It would be nice, if the menu had more lines, so you can see all different products. I have tried to make barrows. It doesn't seem to work. It's said, it needs wood. There's a lot of wood but the blacksmith isn't keen on carrying it to his workplace. Is there anything else needed?

You can see, we aren't very healthy, so in summer we will collect herbs and then build a herbalist.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 10, 2017, 01:21:02 PM
did you have to assign a worker to the clay or does it function like the hunter with a laborer? does the laborer who starts hunting stay there or does he fgo about being a laborer? i am wondering if the placement only defines the area now and laborers hunt when they get near the circle. so they shoot deer as they see them now.how far out does it trigger? do they hunt miles away or just in the circle? this might be an interesting development. you place a gatherer in town and the laborers all bring in food as they come across it or find it in their travels.the quick hunters usually work a space about double the placement radius. can we combine this with NECORA's gathering ability?that would be interesting to see.
    i think your clay worker is ment to work similar to the hunter,collect clay around like the hunter does deer. you say it isn't removable?no delete button?maybe TOM didn't intend for it to act the same and the game decided different. did you find a tailor to add to a house like the blacksmith?
      you are fine taking breaks NILLA. those are needed. as long as they aren't bed-ridden sickness or hospital breaks.nobody needs to see those kinds.
hope you had some fun while you was away.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 10, 2017, 02:05:07 PM
Very nice to see you back @Nilla! Your tests and feedback was always an important part of this modding project.

The new forester lodge is not russian. The original is from your other home country in Bayern. I could not find something from Scandinavia. Seems there is no forester house in the land of wood.^^ If we find one, I can make it for another update. This here is indeed a rather modern style but that was the idea to have forestry as an achieved part of the "new economy". Before this time, your people just go to the forest to cut down trees. As it was in history. Depleted forests is an aspect of the game which wants to be solved if you play the North standalone. To balance this, natural regeneration (reseeding) of the forest is stronger than in base game. A small settlement should be able to work without a forester lodge. It may be something experimental but that's the idea. :)

And all tasks from the removal toolbar are now done by laborers including the new Dig For Clay tool. These tools are now even more reduced to work like collecting this or that. It becomes easier and faster to use because you don't need to add a profession and it also makes it unsuitable to run as permanent replacements for buildings. If a work is performed by laborers the game doesn't track production in this object. But I did not mind and removed this part of the UI. It creates another advantage of proper buildings where workers also record their production output.

This small spot where clay is mined from the ground leaves one unusable tile to avoid endless clay production on it, which would be inconsistent of course. It is 30 clay and enough for a bloomery and 2 trading docks. So clay pits will be only necessary for brick making. I really liked to add clay as a tier1 material and want to make some old clay huts or timber frame houses similar the new trading storage.

Ah and to craft reindeer parkas, check the campfire. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 10, 2017, 03:23:33 PM
I will make a try without forester and see how it works. As i said, I have one from the forest outpost but it could be turned off. And I should have recognized the kind of forester house as Bavarian. But these windows looked Russian to me. And I think you are right. We don't have forester houses like that here in Scandinavia. I think farmers cut trees in winter. They had some simple cabins out in the woods to use during the woodcutting season, but they didn't really live there. Later as the industrial revolution started with saw- and paper mills, it wasn't much different; simple huts for the workers. Their families lived elsewhere.

I fully agree, that the mini claypit should leave a trace. I can see the point, that these "instant" tools have some disadvantages, like no statistics.  :'(

@brads, I don't really know how the hunter works. Since I hadn't discovered the camp fire :-[ (Thanks Tom, I will try it), I was very careful to use it, because I didn't think I could get rid of the hides. But it looks like a laborer gets to the circle. If there's deer in it, it will be killed. If it's none, the laborer walks around in the circle for quite some time; looking for deers. Eventually he will go away. I don't know what happens, if he sees a deer or a bird. It's possible, that it will be killed elsewhere, just like a hunter would do. I forgot one hunting spot out in the woods. After a while I saw 5-6 pieces of chicken lying on the ground somewhere else.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 11, 2017, 07:49:42 AM
Now I know a little more how the hunting tool works, and I don't think I like it! If you look at the first picture, you can see why.

I set the tool close to a big flock of deer. The woman marked with a red O came and started to kill a deer close to the houses (well outside the small hunting circle). Somehow she became a killing frenzy and went on with her bloody craft in an enormous speed. Soon a man came, who didn't want to leave "all the fun" to the woman. He killed a handful of deer close to the stone stockpile (also outside the circle) and then went away. But the woman hadn't seen enough blood, yet. She spotted a flock of birds in the woods and chop, chop, chop; all transformed to chicken meat in a few seconds. Still not enough; the few last deer that had managed to escape into the forest, weren't spared. I think she's just about to kill the last one at the picture. This is not very nice. I wonder how @Abandoned would handle a situation like this in her story.  :-\ ;)

You may say; why didn't you delete the hunting tool to stop this slaughter? Yes normally; that's exactly what I would have done. But in this case I wanted to know, what happens next. Anyhow I like the way this tool worked before better: You assign a hunter, he/she gets there, kill one deer, carries first the hide (if you need meat) to the store, then the meat and if the deer are still around, kills a second animal after that. It's never more than a few deer killed, before the flock disappears.

Of cause it would be possible to kill the "right" number of deer, the way the tool works now but you have to be very active, and not let the hunting spot out of sight for one moment. I think it might be a bit hard, because you never know, how long it takes until one or several laborers get there. I guess it could variate a lot depending on how many free laborers you have, where they are at the moment and how many other assignments they have. The old tool was much more comfortable.

It's the same thing with the foresters. I turned the forester off for a few years and started to mark mature trees instead. The laborers collected food in summer and cut trees in winter. I think it would work fine, at least as long as you don't need to sell a lot of wood. But again; a lot of micromanagement. A small forester is much more comfortable. That's the reason I sent the foresters back to work.

I have problems with the gatherer. The second picture is from the first year I let it run. It's august and the 2 gatherers haven't collected much food. You can see, the circle is full of food, so it doesn´t look like it has anything to do with mature/not mature/wrong kind of trees. (My first suspicion was that the sly @Tom Sawyer will force us to cut the trees manually, if we want to pick wild food, but it doen´t seem like that) As I looked, the gatherers seemed more interested in firewood than food. Some years later (third picture) it's not much different. Now they seem to sit by the fireplace and roast venison, instead of picking berries.  >:( Suggestions?

The third picture also shows the settlement the way it looks now in year 7. I just finished a trading dock. I will also build a trapper. If it hasn't changed, furs is very profitable to sell. I've also noticed, that the few gold nuggets my Bannies have found, brings a good profit. I've also split the herd to increase the wool production. The surplus will be exported as wool or clothes. I don't know yet, what and how much I will need to buy. First I will buy food of the "grain category" and maybe some vegetables for diversity, as soon as possible some seeds to try farming and a few cows for milk and after that some bricks and rooftiles, to start a brick and glass production.

I think I´ve found a small "bug". I got a warning that I ran out of ore. I think it´s acually iron/metals. fourth picture
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: galensgranny on December 11, 2017, 08:41:37 AM
I love the new hunting tool!  Get all the meat one can!  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2017, 09:16:21 AM
LOL, too funny. so the radius out is worked about the same as the old hunter icon. i think this could be handy depending on how it is triggered.why did 1 guy hunt and then leave? where did he go? was there clearing scheduled to pull the lady back to? we need more info on how this functions. do you have a similar tool for firewood,gethering,etc? what happens when they empty the double sized area? i understand you think it is overhunting.i think it can be tweaked and adjusted. it could be quite handy though. in some set ups this spot won't be walked over often.
      hypothetical. if i placed this space in a fodder or thatch meadow,it might work and make sence. a laborer waunders through there to pick up fodder since he has time.he sees deer and hunts several of them. i could see trapping to be similar as well.keeps the rabbits and foxes down in meadows.or beavers along streams.
      your gather hut brings many questions. are "parka's" clothing? did they process deer meat and make clothing by themself? were they busy processing all those deer you slaughtered?LOL
  by the way  i think your "chickens" are actually grouse or quails.TOM didn't want to make them big enough to be turkeys or pheasants. the indians tried to convince him.they ate fish and rice for thanksgiving like chinease people.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on December 11, 2017, 10:00:10 AM
Weird, I saw something like that but it was before this version. The killing spree was caused because the barn wasn't build yet. Once built, the hunter acted normal picking stuff up and stored after each kill. Was your food storage full?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 11, 2017, 01:50:53 PM
Hard testing of gameplay, Thats good! :)

I think both variants with hunters and with laborers have their advantages and disadvantages. In my tests I found it more handy with the laborer solution. At least in most cases. Your people are hungry and you see a herd incoming for a great chance to get a lot of meat. Now you just place this tool, wait for free laborers to take them and then quit. No need to assign workers first or to switch professions to make hunters available just for this action. Also no annoying behavior of hunters who carry one hide back to the village far away instead of taking more animals and then good bye deer. In test games with version 5 I always had a feeling to have to make a workaround by building storage sheds here and there in the forest or by spamming hunting spots for more workers an to keep free hunters in profession list working as laborers to be ready for the next hunt. But I also see your point in this case of rather uncontrolled killing deer by laborers and the wish to have more control about it. A cause of this lost of control is that a hunting radius always only defines the area to search for deer, it doesn't disallow hunting outside the radius. So if a worker is on the way to the spot after warming up or carrying venison to a barn and faces off a deer then he will kill it. That cannot be changed but seems to create more uncontrolled killing with laborers than with strict defined hunters. Maybe we find a better way between or so.

To the gatherer. I guess the parka and meat was tracked by a guy who was working at a campfire before assigned to the gatherer shelter. I want to research this effect more and it seems the game is tracking by worker and not by building. Not really good because it is shown in the buildings statistic. Berries and mushrooms are growing in summer only and can be gathered from about July till September. Its a short time and actually manual gathering is more efficient. It also depends on temperature. You have very cold summers in these screens and it can hit the yield of wild food. All these red spots are probably not matured yet or not long enough to be picked up by your gatherers.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 11, 2017, 02:30:22 PM
You are all right. This way of hunting may be convenient, if you need a lot of meat fast. But I don't think anyone will need the meat from 27 deer at once. It will rather cause trouble with full barns. No, @Turis; the barns were not full, at least not as the killing started, afterwards; maybe yes.

I happenend to have an autosave just after I set the spot but before anyone started the slaughter. More or less the same thing happened the second time. This time however the birds and the deer hid in the forest were not killed. For some reason, the first diligent laborer found them, the second not. Also this time a second person came for a brief help; killing a few deer and then went away.

To check the gatherer, I built a small one from the Forest Outpost next to the Nordic. And actually; the following year, they both collected some food. You might be right Tom, that it had to do with the low temperatures. I will continue to keep an eye on them.

And @brads3, parkas are clothing made from hides at the campfire. You can choose between making parkas from hide and firewood or roast venison. You don't need to assign someone to the campfire; a laborer will do the job. The campfire have no building statistic, so you can't see how much it produce. Am I right that 1 hide and 1 firewood give 1 parka and 50 venison and 1 firewood give 60 roasted meat? I had the impression that the production of parkas was slow but a lot of meat was roasted. I would like to have a statistic menu! The rest I like very much. The idea that people sit at the campfire, working the hides to clothes and roasting some meat, is sweet. It will have no use in a big economy, but here right at the beginning, it's perfect! (At least if it had a proper menu ;) )
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2017, 03:37:14 PM
ohh so the laborers make their own clothing too. you have lots of neat new toys to play with in that toolbox. i do hope TOM gives us more insight on how the hunter triggers work,or decide which laborer to pull. an interesting new devlopment idea.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on December 12, 2017, 02:22:10 AM
Frankly, I don't use any statistics menus. I just check that they have food, tools, clothes and firewood.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: kid1293 on December 12, 2017, 02:48:33 AM
Very funny and learning!
Luke provided the basic ingredients.
Modders add their tools and utensils.
Players are the cooks, all trying to make that perfect soup. :)

@Tom Sawyer - I am not off-topic. You have created a completely new
school of 'cooking' the perfect game. I look forward to testing it.
Specially those new numbers for vegs and fruit.
It will need more attention than a casual vanilla game.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 12, 2017, 07:04:12 AM
Frankly, I don't use any statistics menus. I just check that they have food, tools, clothes and firewood.

NOOOOOO- statistics is a big part of the fun! ;)  :D

Very funny and learning!
Luke provided the basic ingredients.
Modders add their tools and utensils.
Players are the cooks, all trying to make that perfect soup. :)

Very nice said, Kid!

@Tom Sawyer - I am not off-topic. You have created a completely new
school of 'cooking' the perfect game. I look forward to testing it.

Yes, it's really somehow a new game. Much is the same, but still you have to think a lot "out of the box" and make things different, if you play the North. That's why I've liked this mod so much from the start. The neat familiar looking buildings are one thing; very nice but what really got me "hooked" are the gameplay changes. :) Can't thank you enough @Tom Sawyer for all the fun!

A few more year has gone in my viking village. Everything is peaceful, no more "berserk huntresses". ;) I'll show some pictures.

First picture

My gatherers have started to work. Now they collect food every year. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It's OK. Mostly the gatherer from the Forest outpost collects more food and less firewood than the Nordic gatherer. I don't know, if it's random or somehow different numbers. I also don't know, what would happen with more than 1 gatherer in each site. I have more food than I need, so I haven't tried, yet.

You can also see a field on the picture. I bought some turnip seeds. Turnips grow well in a harsh climate, but to get a good harvest, you have to start it manually. Later I also bought barley (grows well) and rye (didn't grow that well the one year I had the seeds, but I will give it a couple of years more)

Second picture

You can't store much goods in a trading dock. I can't say, yet, if I find it too small. It will show. In any case, it will be a bit of challenge to build a trade based economy with these small trading docks. I'm looking forward to give it a try. In any case; my usual strategy to store goods, I don't need at the moment in big ports, is not an option. As I said; a lot of "out of the box" thinking, when you play the North! :)

I've cut in, what I store in my trading port. I've reduced the amount of logs, herbs and barrows (no one so far wants to pay the higher prize for them anyway) to about 60% full store.

My only problem in this game, so far, is that I haven't seen any glass. No merchant brought it, no merchant will take an order! :( It looks like you need some glass to produce glass, and glass is needed for many things. Most important at this point a town hall, a country store and larger barns. I hope it's simply bad luck and not a bug.

To increase the chances to get some glass, I've built a second trading dock.

Third picture

Now there's a church (under construction on the last picture) and a graveyard. A couple of nomads has joined the community. Note, the well on an strategic place! ;)

Fourth picture

Overview
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 12, 2017, 09:24:35 AM
Yes, nice saying @kid1293  So let's cook..^^

Your research of the campfire output is right @Nilla. They roast a half deer at a time, it brings 20% improvement and doesn't need education. Parkas are made from hides 1:1 and 1 hide is enough to start crafting.

I did some more testing with camping gatherers and it is as you said. If there is a campfire, these lazy guys tend to sit there for roasting some meat. Actually I don't mind, but of course they have to fly through the forest for berries and stuff all the time. But what bothers me more is that all meat is tracked as output in their gatherer shelter. Other people from permanent workplaces do the same. I don't like this side effect and want a better solution.

The gatherer from forest outpost in your picture had a really good yield for harsh climate. Maybe luck or less laziness. There is no difference in these workplaces.

I will wait for more results from your village before I make a Steam version. Maybe we will need some tweaking of values.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 13, 2017, 07:25:49 AM
I've played a few more years. It seems like complaining here at WOB pays off. The first merchant who arrived after I started to play, didn't have glass but took an order and he was back the next year with a boatload of glass. So I bought 100 to start with. I've bough 100 bricks and 100 rooftiles earlier. So in no time; this settlement goes from a viking village to the 19th century.

Finally I have my "beloved" statistics. I had a lot of blueberries! The drying shack for meat seems efficient. I've also bought some salt and built a salting house down by the port. But salt is carried to the stores by the vendors, so a better location is close to a store.

I can't say, that I understand the merchants; what they bring and what they pay well for. Probably I don't need to. It's the opposite to CC, where there's dozens of different merchants with different names. Here, they are all called merchants but they bring/can bring a lot of different things. They also pay different for different things. They often carries smaller amount of precious metals or coins. I try to build a small stock of coins and metals. At the moment I have no real other strategy. After I've bought the essential "start-up" things, I'm self sufficient (except for salt and later sugar). I think, I will go on and farm a little bit longer, to see how it works. Then close the farms/most of the farms, to see what happends, if a settlement is dependent on food import.

I have some thoughts about further developments of this mod. Of cause, I haven't tried all new things yet, but I will write a little about it here anyway. It has come to my mind now. I find, that this mod has gone in two opposite directions. Historically in two opposite directions. I don't mean it's a bad thing! Just something to think about @Tom Sawyer, if you want to go on with this work.

You have developed the "viking part"; the more primitive life, with subsistence farming as base for life; the uneducated start, the farmers workplace and other small production buildings. The look of such a settlement is very nice and neat. It would have made a lot of fun to develop such a viking/early medieval village further. But a couple of things makes it hard: statistics and distribution of goods. I would have waited to build any of these red 19th century buildings, if there had been a townhall and a market in "viking style". Maybe I'm a bit odd, but I need my statistics. Mostly the inventory but also number of houses/families, some of the more important graphs and so on. The distribution of goods without markets is also difficult. I have a lot of small barns, but those close to production sites were full, others in more remote areas empty. I thought, that I would need some larger barns, but things have changed, after I've built my 2 "lanthadel". After a few vendors started their work, the small storage work well.

The other direction of development is the early industrial part. It's also very interesting. I will slowly start to go in that direction the following years and let you know my thoughts.

First picture

I have built a small industrial area. These buildings are so nice! The production hasn't started, yet. I don't think it will for some time. I just wanted to make sure, that I have enough building materials for these buildings. I will also produce a small store of clay and sand, so I can start to produce fast, if i need to.

And finally I have some statistics! The menu of the village hall is a bit larger than vanilla. I had to try and make some changes from my usual way but this is alright. Normally I have the professions menu open but it can be managed here as well.

Second picture

Town center.

I haven't really understood the changes educated/uneducated, yet. I've built a school to find out. If I understand it right: uneducated farmers and laborers work as well as educated. Educated craftsmen work better. Is it about 25%, like it was or are there any changes?

My inventory shows, that there's a lot of blueberries in the woods. It was 5k but I've sent no laborers out in the woods the past years and they will have to stay home a couple more. I wonder how 5 well year old blueberries taste?  :P

Third picture

This happens, if you forget to start the harvest manually.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 13, 2017, 12:44:45 PM
Good thoughts! I already had a Thingstead in mind. A simple meeting place for the old Vikings where town hall functions are available right from the start. In a reduced form or so. And a small rural market would be useful of course. The vanilla market also fits and got a texture overwrite in this version. But it is rather large. Also I'm sure there are some nice items here in downloads. EB Farmstand in even Viking style or something from Kid and DS. Will look at it to make sure it works with the flagging.

The inefficiency or waste of material by uneducated workers is mostly 25% yes. The difference is that many works are not affected by this anymore. These are hunting, gathering and mining. For farmers it depends on crops they grow. Simple crops don't make a difference and others reach a better yield with education. It can be checked on www.banishedventures.com/wiki/crops (http://www.banishedventures.com/wiki/crops).
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: irrelevant on December 13, 2017, 01:21:57 PM
Now I know a little more how the hunting tool works, and I don't think I like it! If you look at the first picture, you can see why.
I just now saw this; @Nilla the new queen of the deer visperers! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 14, 2017, 06:50:02 AM
Well, @irrelevant; I wouldn't exactly call it a whisper. It's more like screaming out loud.  :D

@Tom Sawyer; I thought a little about trying the DS wagon vendors. I've always liked them and I think they could work visually. But I've read about the trouble @brads3 had with his markets, and I wanted to test this mod first. If it works with other mods, comes later. But honestly, in such a rural area, where people produce more or less everything they need themselves, no kind of market or merchant would have played a part in the everyday distribution of goods, opposite to a town. I said, that the wagon vendor would fit visually, because I think, that travelling merchants did visit from time to time, selling salt and a few other things, people couldn't produce at home. If you want to make something historically correct, I would suggest a barn in the same style as the other, maybe a little bigger, where vendors could work. The name "vendor" would maybe not fit, but we´re used to it and I don't find it so important. Maybe the profession could be renamed to storekeeper or something. It would have been a more proper name for the function in Banished anyway, because to me a vendor sells something and no vendor sells anything in Banished, they just distribute goods.

A few more years have gone by in Sigurdo.

First picture

Do people look for gold on their own initiative? I didn't order any search for gold for a very long time. But one poor guy lost his way on the other side of the river. The bags give the clue, that he was searching (and found) gold. Unfortunately he starved to death before the bridge was done. I tried every trick to keep him alive; let him cut a tree, made everyone to builder and tried to make him build a barn so he had anywhere to put wild food. Somehow the gaming mechanism is annoying. Even if it's too early for blueberries, there's other food out in the woods. He starved, because he needed a barn to eat.  :'( ???

Second picture

Fish will not play a big part in this version of the game. You can only assign one fisher to each spot and this one fisher doesn't catch all too much. (last year was bad for some reason, it has been  a bit more other times I've looked, but still much less than a vanilla fisher with its 4 fisher). I will not say, it's too low compared to other professions, but what are your reasons?
,
Third picture

Food graph. It's no crises! I just had too much food (primary blueberries and meat/meatproducts) so I put some of it in the tradingports and reduced the production temporarily. Now we're back on track with a production slightly over the consumption.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 14, 2017, 07:47:58 AM
NILLA,i agree with you. i used to play without vendors thining it was more like buy and sell.over time i had to re-think them where they keep an inventory and help move goods.with all the new flags and a mod this big with so many changes,it is beter to play with it before adding to it.especially in your case since you haven't played with the new limits much.
       some of my storage issues are self-induced.i use a cross-over mod,the compatability 1.07,to bridge differences with old mods to the 1.07.it is actually needed to make some mods function,the NMT and CC for example.with so many mods upgraded so quickly,most players played short games.due to that some things may not have been tested enough.also,all item flags got added to markets and barns.this adds to everything being scattered all over the maps.
     EB did make us some nice small markets to help store and move more specific items.CC extended the cellars making 1 for each new flag.they did add some small barns and a set of production storage barns.even those are limited.as i try to figure the storage and markets out more i will try to relay info back to the modders.i think that will help some of it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on December 14, 2017, 10:13:36 AM
question: i see in your pictures that the calendar is based on "real month names" .... what is the correspondance ? is winter=january ? and the new year start at march (early spring = march) ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 14, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
I have no clue how this guy could reach the other side of the river. They don't search for gold without order or building site. Funny thing but not for him. ;D

Such a managed barn is a good idea and storekeeper probably a better name, also for traders, or? They actually don't do anything else than carrying stuff with their barrows. Even auto purchasing works without them. 300 fish from a pier with rather small circle is not so bad in my opinion. Smoked it will be 400 and salted even 500.

@RedKetchup The year starts in March. You can copy this:

StringTable seasons
{
   Entry _strings
   [
      { String _name = "Month0";         String _text = "March"; }            
      { String _name = "Month1";         String _text = "April"; }            
      { String _name = "Month2";         String _text = "May"; }   
      { String _name = "Month3";         String _text = "June"; }            
      { String _name = "Month4";         String _text = "July"; }            
      { String _name = "Month5";         String _text = "August"; }   
      { String _name = "Month6";         String _text = "September"; }            
      { String _name = "Month7";         String _text = "October"; }            
      { String _name = "Month8";         String _text = "November"; }   
      { String _name = "Month9";         String _text = "December"; }            
      { String _name = "Month10";         String _text = "January"; }            
      { String _name = "Month11";         String _text = "February"; }                     
   ]
}               
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on December 14, 2017, 11:42:48 AM
yeah i already integrated this to my new mod :)

too bad for the aussies ^^  ;D

edit: and yes thats exactly the same lines :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on December 14, 2017, 11:47:33 AM
Do we have this in your mod? because I've been using another mod. If I don't need it...
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 14, 2017, 12:20:59 PM
TOm,i don't mean to argue but what do you mean by "They actually don't do anything else than carrying stuff with their barrows...."??? do you mean the market vendors? i have spent the last few days trying to follow a different vendor each day.a tedious time consumming project.
     what i see so far, different vendors act differently.some do go idle and stand  still or harass the other workers.some seem to help workplaces nearby carry goods to barns or markets. so they act as a laborer but in a tight area. i have not seen any go waunder off to where more land was being cleared. there is a couple so far that are uniquely helpful.they will take material and deliver it to builders.i have also seen the market become overstocked and the vendor move goods out to another market.they do more than just deliver goods to their own market.
    i do want to monitor more of them and try figuring them out better.so far some do act different than others. there does seem to be a random reasxoning behind most of what they do. i haven't much answere as to why and when.it is interesting to see so many differnces from 1 market to the next.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on December 14, 2017, 01:12:23 PM
maybe overlaps are bad, just like fishing ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 15, 2017, 10:58:35 AM
A few more years and a few more pictures.

First picture

We had a terrible summer. Look at the picture: snow in August, the temperature was never higher than 7 C! The turnips grew to 20%, the pears to 15%, the other fields, the blueberries, mushrooms and onions in the forest: 0! I don't mind that occasionally something like this happens. I even like it. We're in the North! Such things actually happened and many people starved. In this village no one will have to starve. The stores are well filled, there's a reserve of salted and smoked meat in the trading ports and if it should turn really bad, we can always let the berserk huntress out in the woods. ;)

But the game is a bit odd. Next picture is a very short time after the first.

Second picture

As soon as the month September came, the temperature rose to 12 C in no time. The crops even started to grow, not much and not for long but at least a little. I guess, that it's nothing to do about it. The temperature of each season is independent on the season before. Here a very cold summer, was followed by a very warm autumn.

There's another rather odd thing: I've built a boardwalk to my trading port. I wanted to give the traders a shorter, straight way to the port if they come from that direction. But they seem to be very coward. They don't dare to walk on the part where no land is beneath.

Third picture

I made an experiment; a small footbridge over the stream. I haven't seen anyone walk on it. I tried to make them. I just cleared the ground for the second cow pasture. The stockpile on the other side of the river is the closest. But I never saw anyone use it. So I really think, that the Bannis in this village are afraid of water.

You can see that no one needed to starve. I was a bit lucky, that a merchant who had a lot of turnips arrived. But even without it, there would have been no trouble; only a poorer diet. Last year was the opposite from the year before. A very warm summer. I think some crops would even had made 100%, if I hadn't started the harvest earlier. The autumn, however was very cold, with an early frost, so no field was completely harvested. But still good enough to fill the stores with turnips, onions, barely and rye. The forests were full with blueberries. I´ve even bought some sugar and made jam. Is jam fruit?

The industrial buildings in the background still don't work. The brickmaker was used a short time to expand the school. I will wait until the educational rate gets higher. Then I will transform the village to the19th century, with the red houses and an attempt to make a small export industry.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on December 15, 2017, 11:50:32 AM
^^ 0 C in august .... an exceptional 12 C in september ....

it is so real in here in Quebec, Canada ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 15, 2017, 04:24:53 PM
Yes, jam is preserving the fruit flag and its health effect.

It seems I have to make a second boardwalk object for crossing waters. It works only above road tiles or above water. Not very elegant but it will work then.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 16, 2017, 07:07:34 AM
I played a few more years yesterday. I'll show one picture.

I play disasters on. This can happen. Not so funny, that my nice industrial buildings caught fire. You may say; no wonder bricks and glass need fire and it might be troublesome to control. But no, the fire actually started at the house next to the brickmaker and spread to the other buildings. On the other hand, it was funny to watch all people; without hesitation they all run into the burning house with their small pots of water.  :P

You can see my store. There's a lot of meat and other proteins. I try to sell as much as I can, but too few merchants want to pay the higher prize. And since I don't need to buy much, there's no reason to sell to a low prize. I will not say much about productivity and profit of different products. Generally I can say; it's a profit to process food. Every step make sense but I haven't found anything, that makes a very high profit. It's nice, I like that. One thing I might criticize a bit; I find the meat salter needs very little salt. I've bought a little now and then, but it last very long. If you make jam; you need a lot more sugar.

I've tested a few other different possibilities of the farmers workplace. I made some ale from barely. I have no inn or a place, where the people can consume alcohol. I suspect, that ale count as "grain" in this version. Your German origin shows @Tom Sawyer; beer as "Grundnahrungsmittel". ;)

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 16, 2017, 09:09:15 AM
do you have any way to process sugar up there? in CC,you can boil maple sap down twice to get sugar.KID uses sugar beets to make sugar as well.
i agree with you if you can process it yourself. if you can not ,then it might be debated. i do like the idea of giving the bannies something to drink with food value.maybe then they won't drink all my water.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 16, 2017, 09:14:11 AM
Sugar, like salt is import only. But I find it good that way. It´s reality. In fact those are the only goods I buy at the moment.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 16, 2017, 12:15:08 PM
Good you made some Ale. Your brave people deserve it after this firefighting. They don't need a tavern to consume this stuff but it's even better to sit there with a roast beef and some ale.^^ The consumption of salt can be higher. I will adjust it to be more a need in trading docks. The boardwalk I have extended by an item for crossing water. Then you can build such a waterfront used by people.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 17, 2017, 08:35:38 AM
The consumption of salt can be higher.
.. or maybe salt ought to be more expensive, or both.

I've been playing and thinking a little more. I've come to the conclusion, that I should start a new game. Why? It's quite obvious, that all these small, partly new production buildings, more or less belonging to a farm, need another kind of testing. In this game the growth is too fast. Of cause also a larger population, can/should use them, but the great thing, would be to run them in a small settlement with a lot of micromanagement. I can guess, that you have developed something, that make even impatient players like me enjoying "real time aging". Normally, I find it too boring at the beginning. But I am pretty sure, that with all these possibilities, there will be things enough to do, even in a tiny settlement.

So I've downloaded the latest upgrade and will start a new game with "Norsemen".

But before we leave Sigurdo, a couple of thoughts/questions/suggestions.

Farming It's more profitable to farm in a harsh climate, than it was before. Most years give a decent harvest. But occasionally, as I've told you, the harvest might be more or less =0. This makes it interesting and harder to play "harsh". It's important that farming is possible, because with the small trading ports and these merchants, I think it would be very hard to support the population with enough food without farming. In the old version it was not only possible but also easier to buy a lot of food than farm. I can't imagine, that it's like that now.

It also look like, it's more important to have a balanced diet, than vanilla and I think, even more than it was in earlier versions. I have noticed, that the few people who live far away from the markets are really sick (1 hart), even with enough herbs and herbalists. I don't know, how much less productive these people are, but of cause it's less than those with 5 stars. Are there any other disadvantages with unhealthy people?

Pumpkins? Why on earth can they grow pumpkins and not potatoes? As far as I know, they are both American plants, that came to Europe relatively late. Even if the vikings travelled to America, I don't think they brought any pumpkin seeds.

Herbs as crop! I don't mind, that herbs could be grown on fields, but I find that the productivity/price isn't right. You harvest about the same amount of herbs on a field as other crops. Maybe a little less than turnips and barely but more than rye. But the prize, if you sell it, is about double; 6 or 8 depending on the merchant. So you can theoretically grow herbs, sell it and get around the double amount of vegetables/grain trading it away. It's not bad, that herbs have a higher prize, than normal crops. I would reduce the growth.

The farmers workplace. You can grind rye. That's nice. But what about wheat (and maybe other grains you can buy)? As far as I can understand, wheat can't be eaten without processing. So you can buy wheat right from the start, but you have no possibility to eat it, before you can afford to build a proper mill. I don't like that. I'm not sure, what I think about needing 4 wool for one wool coat. Unless you have a big herd of sheep, you will not be able to make many wool coats. But on the other hand, there's a lot of work, several steps, needed to make clothes from wool. If you see it that way, it's OK.

Processing meat. If my notes are right, it's more profitable to salt meat than roast or dry. That's good. But as far as I see, there's no difference between roasting and drying. Maybe drying ought to be a little more profitable than roasting.

Fishing I would like fish to be an important part of the economy. It was historically; a lot of fish eaten, dried and salted fish sold. You are right @Tom Sawyer, that the output for one fisher isn't bad, but I would like, that it could be possible to use 2 fisher on each pier. It would also give the pier an advantage over the small instant fisher. You can't see how much fish you get now, but if the output isn't changes from earlier versions, a good located trout fisher could give 300 fish as well. (if I remember right).

Merchants I think I like these merchants, with their mixed goods and different prices for the small ports. The way the game has developed, it looks like, trade has lost a part of its importance. Of cause you need to buy some initial "stuff";seeds, animals, bricks, rooftiles, glass. Merchants who carry these things, don't come very often. It may be alright, because later you will never need these things, but I find, that it should be possible to order these things by more merchants. Now I guess, that the game doesn't allow this "perfect world". So what is better; a lot of "useless stuff" later or wait for the right things longer?

Later in the game I bought mainly salt and sugar; typical import goods. It's good to be able to sell some surplus and collect a few coins/gold/silver, so you can buy some "emergency goods"; food after a cold summer or to get a balanced diet before you have all seeds, ore/iron/tools if there's not enough ore on the ground close to your settlement, before you can afford to run a mine..... And these things work the way it is.

But if you want to start some industrial production to support the settlement with food, I'm pretty sure, that these docks are too small. And if the same merchants arrive to a large port, I think there's too few of them, who pay a higher price for products like tools, clothing, alcohol, and logs (profitable goods in earlier versions). I don´t know if they are the same, because I didn´t build any large ports. But it would maybe be a possibility to allow us to build larger industrial settlements as well , if other merchants, similar to the last version of the North arrived to the larger ports.

SUMMARY: I like most of the changes. The attempt to direct the gameplay is very interesting. (if you understand what I mean) ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 17, 2017, 09:58:16 AM
do you still have salmon or did that get phased out? i agree with you, i would prefer to have potatoes and not pumpkins.pumkins do have a longer growing season. it is surprising to see what you actually can grow so far north.i was looking at TOM's climate temps yesterday. the high he has you set at is our real life low temp in summer.you are more like mid to northern canada.am i right that your maps only have 3 climate choice settings?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 17, 2017, 01:12:14 PM
I don't mean I wanted potatoes, they are as strange as pumpkins in a viking/medieval European society. And yes, there are 3 climate zones in the North. But salmon and trout are both fish in this version.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 17, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
Nice ideas and hints! I have already include them as far as I agree, so you can play with it if you like. Just download. That process is a bit unconventional but the mod made a good progress last week and is more matured now. Great thanks to you and all people who wrote about bugs! :)

I made the following changes:

- Farmers can grind wheat now
- Salting meat and fish needs more salt
- Herbs from fields bring lower yield (wild herbs are not affected)
- Pumpkin is removed from this scenario. Did not know that it's a plant from the New World as well.
- Slightly decreased amount of blueberry bushes in the forest
- Boardwalk will be used above water (needed a second item)
- Merchants are adjusted to let them pay higher prices more often.

To your questions:

Unhealthy people can be hit by diseases with a higher chance. That's a vanilla function.

Roasting and smoking meat have different efficiency. Roasting 20 and smoking 33%. Actually I don't really see a reason to have both because both need firewood and are the self sufficient version of preserving meat while salting is the advanced method. But why not using the smoking shed for meat as well. It is mentioned this way and Brad wants it.^^

Fish I have simplified again because I actually needed it to balance different fishery objects but this is solved now and cleaning up the inventory is always good. The fishing pier has a small advantage to the simple fishing spot by reaching one tile further into waters. So the fishing circle has a bit more water and this has a an effect. Not really much but the effort to build a pier is also very small.

With merchants I like to control a bit the availability of bricks and glass and when people write it came after about 10 years then it sounds rather well balanced to me, at least not too long. The trading post attracts more merchant ships and they work with money as in the old version. So this is the rather modern trading while the old docks simulate a Viking trade scenario.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 18, 2017, 01:37:51 AM
Sounds reasonable. Good that I didn't start any new game. I`m looking forward to test it. I'll let you know my thoughts.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on December 18, 2017, 03:37:05 AM
This is right on time. I was going to start a new game anyway.  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 19, 2017, 03:58:46 AM
I started a new game yesterday with the latest version. I wanted this one to be extreme, but I wasn't sure in which way; hard (survivors) or slow (Anders och Ella). But I decided slow. I think there are less changes in playing the survival start than by Anders and Ella, compared to previous versions.

I was also thinking a little about making this a story; inspired by @Abandoned, but I don't think I have such a talent. So you have to think that story out yourself. Why is these young couple out in the wildness way north all alone? What thoughts and feelings affect their choices? Instead I will just show you some pictures and tell a little about my thoughts and feelings about them.

First picture

The freezing symbol came just before the house was finished, so everything turned out well. I've cut in the settings. I forgot the map, but it will be shown on the last pictures. It's a nice spot of land close to the big lake with a small island, protecting the house from the cold Northwest wind.

Second picture

If you want to eat a venison (100 food), you'll need a storage. The smallest storage only holds 800 goods, and I guess will soon be full, so I took the risk of building the slightly bigger. The turnips they had in their pouch, lasted long enough, so now they will have storage space enough for quite some time.

The first summer was very cold; very little turnips, very little blueberries, but luckily, there's always deer around the house. The diet was bad this first year, but it was easy to survive. There was time enough to hunt, roast the meat and make some coat. I would find it interesting to increase the punishment for a bad diet or the other way around; to give an advantage, for a balanced diet with many different kind of food. Is it possible to make anything here?

Third picture

The following summers were warmer and the barn full of turnips and blueberries. Toolmaking really need some effort with only two people, also busy with other things. First collect enough firewood to heat the house and run the charcoaler. I have decided to spare as much trees as possible, and only collect firewood as long as I can. Then dig for clay. Since I didn't want to disturb the development of the farmstead, I choose to build it a bit away, close to a mountain. Then collect bog iron, build a small smelter, make iron bloom, build a workplace and make iron. That's where I was last spring, as the work to make tools was interrupted, to concentrate on food collecting. When the snow comes, more charcoal has to be made, unfortunately I wasn't fast enough to prevent the bloomery to store 12 charcoal, I wanted to use for tools. But it's no crisis. There's still tools enough. But I think it's wise, to start to prepare for toolmaking early.

You can see due to poor diet, the health is getting down. It looks like it doesn't matter, if they have only meat or meat, fruit and vegetables, like they had after the second summer; without grain, the health gets down. Maybe it would have happened faster, if they had continued with meat only. In any case, it doesn't seem to have any real impact on anything.

Fourth picture

Big impact or not, I want healthy settlers. To improve the health we need grain. As next a trading port was built. The first merchant brought rye, sheep and cattle. Here it looks like I only will buy the sheep and some rye but I reconsidered and spent both goldnuggets, to buy the cows as well. I find, that sheep and cows are too cheap. The introduction of gold nuggets as a possible payment, makes it too easy to buy all these animals this early in the game. Seeds are also cheap, but to me it's OK that way. It must be difficult to transport living animals on these boats, a few seeds however, no trouble at all.

Fifth picture

Here's the whole settlement, except the trading dock just outside the picture south. There are some new buildings; pastures for the animals, a workplace to grind flour and make wool clothes and a herbalist out in the woods. It's just the workplace without the cabin. It looks a bit weird, if you look close; without the cabin underneath, but I think it's an exception; that you want only the herbalist and if you look at it in overview like this, it doesn't look strange at all. Everything could have been built more close to eachother for shorter ways and higher efficiency, but it seem to work anyway. So I can afford to think a bit ahead and place the buildings where they fit a slightly larger settlement.

You can see the claypit in the north and by the lake a weird piece of boardwalk. There was a piece of gold on that slope, that they couldn't reach. So I had to make this tiny building investment, to get that nugget.

SUMMARY: So far it works fine. I like it. It's not boring at all; things to do all the time. I run mostly 2X speed; only very short 5X if they are busy with things that takes a bit longer. The only negative comment; it might be a bit too easy to develop everything under these conditions, but there's always "ironman" if you want real trouble, so no real complain! ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on December 19, 2017, 05:53:43 AM
What are your map seed settings?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Abandoned on December 19, 2017, 06:03:55 AM
 :) Hi Nilla, I see I have a lot of catching up to do.  That is a really nice looking lake on that map. The new North looks great.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 19, 2017, 09:05:21 AM
@Hawk you can see it on the first picture; cut in on the left side, mixed with the other menus. Yes @brads3 the North was always beatiful. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on December 19, 2017, 09:19:06 AM
Ah yes! I saw it this time when I looked.  :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 20, 2017, 06:54:00 AM
Year 9. This small settlement prospers in all ways. You may have noticed, that I named the place "Lugnet", that's Swedish for tranquility. I'm not so sure, that this place is that peaceful now, with 3 small children! House full! I came to a point, where I had do make some decisions:

Do I want the settlement to grow a little bit faster? Yes! To wait until the oldest child moves out, will take too long.

Will I build a chapel or a house to achieve this? A house! Some of you may ask; how can a house make the population grow, if there's no one there to move in? I'll answer; of cause there's someone who will move in. I can force this poor couple to separate. And odd enough, if they separate; there will be more children. And I like to make the start of this game to a real prosperous family farmsted.

So I "fixed" the weird herbalist workplace, with its flying roof, the way it was meant to be. And as I fortold; the husband moved out in the woods and took the two younger kids with him. And it didn't take long, until a fourth and then a fifth child was born. (First picture) I wonder, how @Abandoned  would have manage to bind this into a story! ;)

Not much other things have happened; it has been easy for the two adults to support all these children, and now when the elder children starts to help, it's not getting harder. The store was more or less full, so I built another one close to the first house and also a third out in the woods.

But also this plan reach it's end. After the 6th child, the house is full again. (second picture) But the oldest is old enough to move out, so there will soon be room for another baby.  :P

Since your last visit to Lugnet, only one building is added; a salter.

Young Houstone is very happy in his new beautiful house in the birch grove. (third picture)

I never liked the look of these mixed stockpiles. Here I've built several small specialised piles. This way I find it doesn't look bad.

Somehow the trade has become too powerful. I mainly sell blueberries, mushrooms and herbs. And the family could start to build a small fortune of silver and gold. The changes of the merchants and the prices might have been too "good" = not so good.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 20, 2017, 07:22:49 AM
with a pure A&E start and no nomad catcher,that trick is your only option.you are limited with no mods.delaying the school will bring the educationlevel down but the extra work that 1 or 2 do helps more than hinders so early in game. that makes it go faster than if they were in school.
     TOM did a nice job designing those crates for the piles. they look much better than the vanilla way. you could use KID's coverings and cover them. that mod wouldn't effect the game play.
      what limit flag does the gold and silver use? can you sell nuggets or does it need to be refined? CC has ore and it is processed into coins or bars.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 20, 2017, 08:17:02 AM
In this new North, the education has a lower impact than vanilla. Many profession, like laborer and farmer may as well be uneducated. (By the way, the parents are uneducated, too). Toolmaking is a bit of a loss, so I plan to buy tools, as soon as a merchant bring some.

Gold and silver has it's own flag, on the bottom in the right column (here 0 because I store everything in the trading dock). You can use it to trade. I think @Tom Sawyer deliberately made it that way. Silver (and maybe if you were really rich and made large business gold) was historically used to trade with, counted in weight. It can't be processed, at least not yet. But making coins, was a monopol for the king in my country, so I think a Banished village would get trouble, if they tried to make their own coins.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 20, 2017, 11:37:04 AM
That's a nice map you have picked @Nilla and always nice to follow for new ideas and balancing.

Gold and silver are flagged together in Custom6 @brads3. Just like CC and other mods do it.

Following this map I also have the impression that gold is a bit "OP" and can make the early game boring if too much can be bought right from the start. I also think it can be more convenient for trading with lower values. So I want to make two changes. First, removing gold from mountain slopes to limit this trading push to gold from rivers. It is still enough to buy the first seeds and livestock as well as food and tools for a couple of years. And people who like to get more gold can start as gold-seekers.

For the second change I think about a splitting of gold and silver by 4. The original idea was to use historical values counted in ounces. As mentioned on a wiki page, in the old days a cow (400 by the value of its meat) was payed by 2 ounces of silver (200) and 1 once of gold by 8 ounces of silver = 1600. The silver penning was used as well and minted in about 20 of an ounce (1.5 gram silver) = value of 10 in game. Since most players consider gold as nuggets and not as ounce it may be better to get not 1 ounce but 3 - 4 nuggets from a spot with a value of 400 each. Silver is then split to 50 which means a quarter ounce and the smallest unit of hacksilver as it was used to pay with. The silver penning can keep its value. And even minted by a smith in 5 from a silver piece for a smallest unit of currency and better trading or vice versa melt down to silver. If the king allows it. ;D

The price of cattle I have already increased to 600 which is the value of its meat in preserved food. Makes more sense since you get no fresh meat from merchants anymore but salted or smoked or just in living form where it is preserved perfectly.^^

I'm looking forward to the development of this town and I'm glad that bugs of the first release are solved so far.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Maldrick on December 20, 2017, 12:52:38 PM
@Tom Sawyer From reading the end of your post, question...Can you limit what arrives by trade boat?  I'm assuming things can be limited from export since food and ale can't be used to trade for certain things in the vanilla game.  Certain things have less value when reading for particular goods too.  But can you disallow some things from being imported also?

Haven't played your mod and not sure if there's no raw meat or you have disallowed it from import, is why I ask.

My imagination is running wild with this concept.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 20, 2017, 03:39:05 PM
Is running wild something good or bad?^^ I'm not a native speaker. But yes, it can be defined now by new flags if a resource is an import good or not.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Maldrick on December 20, 2017, 05:13:48 PM
Is running wild something good or bad?^^ I'm not a native speaker. But yes, it can be defined now by new flags if a resource is an import good or not.

Oh, it's good. :)  I'm fascinated with what can be modded.  Thank you.

Sorry for the sidetrack!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 21, 2017, 01:55:12 AM
I don't think you need to put all too much effort in getting historically correct values of different coins. I googeld a bit yesterday and it's VERY confusing. The weight of silver in a mark/daler/penning/öre/örtung........... varied from region to region and over the time. The same thing about how many of a smaller coin unit made a larger. And this was only Sweden! So the most correct thing historically, would be that a Bansihed society had their own values. (OK, to be totally historically correct, it ought to be changed a couple of times during a longer game but I guess we can live without that).  ;)

I'll tell you a little more about the development of the settlement later.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 21, 2017, 09:13:54 AM
A few pictures from yesterday. I didn´t only struggle with markets.

First picture

My mainhouse was soon full again. Mother and 4 small children. 7 children so far, the eldest in a house of his own, two more by the father in the forest. So I let them move in together again. Now the second eldest child moved to the forest house, so I had to build one more. And again; they did exactly what I wanted; the father took the 3 youngest children and moved to the new house. Now there's room for more babies!  :o

Second picture

Here you can see the reason, that I started my experimenting with the wagon vendor and other markets. I made the mistake to put the baking house in one end of the small settlement. Bread is mostly stored in the barn next doors. That means, that the new house and the forest house never had any grain. That's what I wanted to solve with a market. That's also the reason, that I payed attention and saw that the grain products were missing in the stores.

You can also see, that I've tidied things up a bit; and built fences around the pastures. Some time, I find that the housing for sheep and cows ought to be replaced in a more Nordic style. A traditional "Fähus" would be nice. 

Third picture

Here you can see, that there's no grain in any of the markets (to test, I replaced the wagon vendor with a red store.) So, no market will solve my tiny problems. (I refuse to test the big vanilla market). That's the reason I went back to a save before I started these experiments.

Fourth pictures

And this is how I solved the "grain problem" : A barley field between those two houses. A better way than a market anyway. You don't really need a market for 4 houses, but I wanted to test.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 21, 2017, 11:41:15 AM
Yes, vendors really have problems with this grain concept. I see no way to solve it and will go back to standard. That also means to have edible rye and wheat again. It also means to remove the managed granary from my roadmap for now but its ok and good to have solved this issue. Thank you for researching it!

These cool wagon vendors will work perfectly after the next minor update. I got code from Discrepancy and can adapt them. You will not want any other market in your Viking village anymore.^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 21, 2017, 12:39:01 PM
i agree with NILLA that inedible foods can lead to starving bannies with a barn full of grain.however,i do know many players like the concept.i may have a solution. simialr to KID's garden vegetable mod.introduce a new crop seed,call it "mill grain".this seed will produce mill grain which could be inedible.the only issue would be no other mills except yours would grind it. the other modded mills would still be abe to use nomal wheat though.at least this way someone playing from an A&E start would know not to buy the seed from the merchant since they have nobody to work the mill.mill grain crop would just be a combination of rye,wheat,and oat plants. this way you also would see a difference in the inventory so you realize you don't have all the extra grain as food.
          i don't have much experience with in-edibles,as i think like NILLA.i do have sap that is both.CC is edible and NECORA'S is not. both require a different boiler to make syrup.i did have KID's workplace grinder make flour that wasn't edible before.i do say it was nice to have the stockpile,once i realized it wasn't helping my food stash. the fort workers do like their hardtack. the concept does have its uses.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 27, 2017, 06:24:18 AM
Again upgraded mod. Again new game.  :-\

I don't really mind, I like the start of a game, but sometimes it would be fun to play a map a bit longer. So, @Tom Sawyer; please no new incompatible upgrades in the next couple of weeks! ;)

First picture

This time I choose the "survivor" start. And I had forgotten, how hard it was to prevent everyone from freezing to death. I needed three attempts to make it. The secret is to let them cut exactly the amount of wood and stone that's needed at once; not too little (as I did the first time with stone), not too much (as I did the second time). There's just about time to cut the right amount of material, go to the woods and collect 2 pieces of firewood and build the house with 4 builders.

It's also more difficult to produce the initial tools than it was. First they are all uneducated, and by toolmaking the uneducated penalty is still there. You need much more rawmaterial, because 1/4 is "spoiled" in each step. You also need clay to build the little smelter. I like to put this indestructible clay pit a bit far away from the living area; maybe a mistake, because it was winter and not everyone had clothes, so it took very long to get these 2 clay.

Second picture

It took a while, but now everyone have clothes and tools, Ther's even some spare tools, when the first get worn out. The second family are about to get a home.

It's always a point, but choosing the right starting position, playing these difficult start conditions is important. I knew this one could be tricky, but I somehow liked the little peninsula, and a real challenge has never scared me much. But I must say; it's much harder to support the families with food and firewood, than in my last game, where the close forest was much larger. Here 4 adults have difficulties to support 6 children. In my last game 2 adults had no problem supporting their 6 children.

Third picture

Now we have a trading port and have managed to buy some turnip seeds.  :) There's also a fisher and a herbalist outside this picture.

Another thing to think about (at least if you don't have any sheep from the start) is that there's enough deer at the starting position. Here it's not that good. I only hunt as much as needed to get clothes, and that's hard enough. Still the close deer are almost gone. On that other map; they were everywhere. Stupid enough, I also forgot to order sheep, as the merchant was here.  :-[ >:(

I just read what I wrote so far and it sounds a lot like complains, but actually: I like it. It's hard but, possible. Exactly my kind of game! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 27, 2017, 01:39:08 PM
Yes, the first release of this version was a bit unlucky. Things wanted to be fixed and in most cases it cannot be save compatible. If there will be a next major update I will introduce it as a beta version for first test flights. But I am glad that we now have a stable and balanced North for 1.0.7. I am also glad the survival mode can still challenge you. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 28, 2017, 03:29:21 AM
No, @Tom Sawyer don't be sorry, that you released the first version early for testing. You invest a lot of time in making these nice things, the least thing I can do is to test, find possible bugs and maybe some things that could be improved. I only wish, I had more time to test more mods. Other modders make nice things, too. But now I hope I can make a bit more long time testing of the North6, then we'll see.

A few more years played.

First picture


I play Norseman. This settlement will grow with immigration. So a church was built as soon as the "basics" were under control.

Second picture

I know, it looks weird in these surroundings, but I need my statistics. Let's say a foreign merchant wanted to stay in this settlement, when he's "off duty", and he built a house in the style of his home country; much to the joy and astonishment of the other settlers. ;) That's the reason I built it down by the dock.

You can see, that there's a lot of meat in the stores.

I've also built a hunter out in the "big wood". It solves the "clothes issue". I will try to run this settlement without foresters; at least for a while. So far it works fine, just to cut some large trees every winter. It's a bit of micromanagement, so I'm not sure how long I will continue this way, but so far it's OK.

Third picture


The turnips look good, really like turnips. To me it was alright the way it was, with the Banished potatoes (I've never seen any potatoes looking like that, so it might as well have been turnips;) ) but these are nicer and necessary, if you want to grow potatoes as well. And finally; we got some sheep.

I've also built a mine. I have the idea, that I might export iron ore. Does the mine still need logs to produce? How much?


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 28, 2017, 09:31:02 AM
Yes, the mine still needs logs to be expanded. It's 1 log to get 12 ore and 1 tree for 72 ore. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 29, 2017, 05:49:11 AM
Yes, the mine still needs logs to be expanded. It's 1 log to get 12 ore and 1 tree for 72 ore. :)

OK, thanks, that's reasonable and still profitable to export iron ore to buy tools, as long as the people are uneducated. The value of the materials to make a tool is higher than the price. So, that's a strategy; as long as we are in medieval times with uneducated people, tools will only be produced, if we can't buy enough.

Your thoughts of early forest management; the same people who produce food in summer, cut trees in winter (by the way; totally historically correct, Banished foresters=people who only cut and plant trees, is a modern "invention") still works. It is some micromanagement, that's not so fun, but I can endure it. The forest looks much nicer this way. I have a question about this. In one earlier version, some food (I think onions) only grew with birches. I haven't noticed anything like this here, but is it still that way?

I've developed some seasonal routines to make it less tedious:
-when the summer comes, food and herbs are marked for harvest, (maybe if the temperature allows it, a second time late summer/early autumn)
-when the frost comes first firewood then 10-20 trees, dependant on building plans are marked
-sometimes late winter more firewood and food (I guess only roots) marked

I try to have as many "steady" professions as possible, but there is still some micromanagement needed, because the settlement is small and doesn't need a "full time" clothes maker, blacksmith, woodcutter, miner...... but since many profession do laborers work when they are "free", I just let them stay builders, traders, farmers, herbalists..... even if there's no actual work for these professions.

First picture

I take every nomad, so the settlement grows nicely. But the period between nomads is very different; sometimes it takes two months, sometimes two years. They arrive in spring or summer, it's always a couple, often in their 30ies. I find twice a year, like here too often. It would also be fun/annoying, if sometimes singles or children would arrive.

Second picture

A question to the very nice ovenhouse.

I have no seeds from rye or wheat (at least not yet, I'm not sure, if I will grow any on harsh, they are very unreliable) but I buy as much as I can. I let a farmer grind it in the workplace next door to the baking house, but the baker is always faster. Since I know a little about how you balance your mods @Tom Sawyer, I guess, that they are made to work together at the same speed. Somehow it doesn't seem to work in this settlement. It's all close here, so logistics is hardly the problem. Maybe it's because people "steal" away some of the flour before it reaches the bakery. Maybe this should be considered by balancing the "speed" of work. I want to let them work at the same time. If first all grain is made to flour and then flour to bread, I guess more flour would go directly into the houses. How are your thoughts on this matter?

Third and fourth picture


This part is especially for my pal @brads3. (and also for others who might have a food issue)

Look at the food graph! This is the way it should look like to be safe. I know @brads3, you had other difficulties, like a lot of nomads arriving at the same time, but the principle is always the same. Population grows -> foodstore should grow at the same rate. You see where the arrow is; it was a very cold summer, almost no harvest (you may have something similar after your many nomads). If it looks like that, no matter why, it's important to increase the food production the following years by all means. Expand fields, more fisher, more gatherer, more hunter....... everyone (more or less) had to produce food. A look at the production menu helps.

Advice if you play the North on harsh; don't grow cabbage. It needs a warm summer. The couple of years I grew it, the outcome was about the half of turnips.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2017, 03:47:23 PM
Interesting strategy to sell the raw materials and to buy finished tools with uneducated people. I also think it pays off but probably only if you sell to best prices and if you get tools to the right time without order. Sounds risky with rare merchants in a small settlement and only 1 or 2 docks. I want to calculate this but too tired right now.

To let people stay in their profession was my intention. I never liked this seasonal switching of professions to be efficient. I want a farmer be a farmer also if seasonal work has to be done. That's why they now have various seasonal tasks in winter when the fields are covered by snow.. grinding grain, brewing ale or making clothes. Processing their in summer harvested resources. It still needs micromanagement to be fully efficient but no switching of professions. You only have to enable/disable seasonal workplaces. At least that's the idea.

The oven house is also a temporary workplace of farmers. It's thought as a common oven of a village, not for one family. The flour from many farmers can used to bake bread there. Or later the flour from a mill somewhere at a creek. So the baking speed is balanced for this, not for the slowly grinded flour from one farmer only.

And onions are now crops. They don't grow in the forest anymore. Only berries, mushrooms, roots and herbs. And maybe nuts some day or Tanys rose hips soon. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on December 29, 2017, 04:48:16 PM
maybe ... crosses de violon ?  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 30, 2017, 01:59:21 AM
maybe ... crosses de violon ?  ::)  ;D

???

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 30, 2017, 05:21:26 AM
That made me a puzzle.. but I found "Fiddleheads have been part of traditional diets in much of Northern France since the beginning of the Middle Ages..." Right? Frenchies really eat just everything. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on December 31, 2017, 08:45:30 AM
I've never heard of eating any kind of fern here in my neighborhood. Bark and spruces from trees though.  :-\

Tools: First, I don't fully rely on tool import and second, I don't order any tools. I have produced some and I will produce more, if the store gets down too much. I have some iron and charcoal for emergency use.

I calculate like this, hope it's right: From 40 iron ore and 40 charcoal you get 30 iron bloom. From 28 iron bloom and 28 charcoal you get 21 iron and from 20 iron, 20 charcoal and 5 logs you get 15 tools. So 15 iron tools (and 2 iron bloom and 1 iron extra) cost you 40 iron ore, 88 charcoal (made from 15 logs) and 5 wood. 15 tools cost 600. 40 ore and 20 logs give you 720 if you can sell it to the higher price and 540 to the lower. (if you choose to produce charcoal for sale you get a bit more) And you save all the work to produce these tools. I have sold very little to the low price (just things I really wanted to get rid of), so most of my bought tools were a good business, no matter how you calculate.  ;)

I guess most of you will find this very "geeky" but I like to calculate things like these when I play.    ::)

First picture


But @Tom Sawyer I don't really understand how you've been thinking, when it comes to the different merchant. To me it's quite confusing. One merchant who sells a mixture off goods like Fores,  pays the high price for everything. Others like Johanne (cut in) the low price for everything. And the merchant who brings only coins, pays the high price only for blueberries (at least from all of the things I sell). I don't mind it this way. I like the "gambling" part, but it would be nice to understand your motives to make it this way.

Second picture

Unusual for me I've played a little with decorations and built some fences to "tidy up". The foreign merchant in the strange round red house even put up a flag.  ;D

Third picture


I'm playing Norseman (real time aging) but due to the many nomads, the growth isn't extremely slow. Since the viking/medieval people haven't discovered schools yet, I have the problem with a lot of young adults. Here you can see; I wanted to build a house for Dall, 17 and Briel, 16 but who moved in? Tiannemari, 11! I don't know how to manage this. People are considered adults with 10 but don't move in together until 16. If I build a lot of houses, they will be occupied with a lot of young singles, who eventually will move together, leaving empty houses. If I only build a few new houses, some children will stay at home until they are 20 and more and the population growth will be slow. Any suggestions what to do? Anyway, I will make some experimenting.

You can see these open tree menus. I've built a lot of single apple trees. I like the look of them. The harvest isn't bad. I use 2 farmers who goes from one tree to another. A lot of micromanagement, but it's fun, at least for a while.

I wish you all a very good 2018!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on December 31, 2017, 11:25:47 AM
hi,NILLA. what i do is build houses once the females get to be 15 years old or so.it isn't fool proof as you have found.as they do pair up those other houses won't stay empty long since younger bannies will move in.the bannies do seem pickier about the distance from work when trying to build and move them as singles.generally young males seem to move out from parents sooner than a single female. the females rather stay until they are paired with a male of similar age.so childbearing age does play into things.other day i had a family split and move between 3 houses,all trying to move 1 17 year old female.think she is still living with 1 parent after it all.

        those apple trees are interesting. i take it you have to manualy send a farmer to harvest each 1?can a gatherer be sent to pick up the apples if the trees were within his circle?so a forester plants a tree whereever you tell him and moves to plant another,but  all can be gathered automatically by 1 gatherer.CC has an orchard forester that a gatherer will harvest.however,you can't specify where to plant the trees.TOM gave you some neat tools to play with. some are similar to ideas i have had the last year or so.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 31, 2017, 04:28:36 PM
Your calculation is almost right @Nilla. You don't need that much charcoal to forge iron and tools but it doesn't make a big difference below the line. Tools can be a bit more expensive then. On the other hand it's interesting to have such an option. I find it not geeky to calculate it, just the normal way of balancing.

About your merchants I can say that Johanne comes from another Nordic village because he or is it a she has furs, hides and mead on board. He would pobably pay a good price for bricks and glass or charcoal and for exotic food but with your Nordic stuff you cannot make him happy. The other merchant is more interesting. Fores comes from far away, lets say from Francia or how it was. He brings food from this warmer region like wheat and even figs. Also advanced steel tools which might be a good trade for your people. The more important thing is that he wants to buy Nordic resources. I can give every merchant a special name, where he comes from. Could be funny and easier to recollect them.

And now I know, who is that guy from the mystic round house making your statistics every year.. It's an ambassador from the famous Alaska Empire.^^ I really have to make some historical flags or banners. Twilight already suggested this.

For the uneducated youngsters occupying new houses I don't have a good idea yet. The only way to avoid this would probably be to somehow syncronize it with marriage age.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 01, 2018, 04:24:16 AM
You're right.  :-[  I looked again at my not very tidy notes, and these 15 tools need less charcoal but on the other hand more logs than I wrote, so the conclusion is the same: Profitable to buy with uneducated blacksmiths, at least unless you order and get the lower price for your goods. Higher price for tools? I don't know. In that case, it would maybe be too profitable to produce with educated people. It's an interesting balance. I can live with it the way it is. It's not a huge profit to buy the tools and you take the risk, that no merchant bring any in a long time, so you have to check and be prepared to produce.

To the young singles, I'm sure there's no good way to solve it in the mod. As you say; you can set the marrage age down, but I don't like these real age mods with 10 years old couples. You simple have to find a strategy to deal with it. At the moment I build a few homes for single young adults. If I'm really lucky it will be a young couple, or a single 15 year old, that soon will find a sprouse, who moves in. If I'm unlucky, it's a 10 year old. It is possible to make a save and restart the game until the "right" people move in, but it's too boring, so I will not. @brads3, I haven't seen, that young boys are keener to move out than young girls. I think it's completely random.

And yes, these single apple trees are interesting, and yes, you need to assign a farmer, but only the very short time it takes to harvest. I play around a bit with, how to make this. If it's a cold summer, I don't bother to harvest the 10 apples on each tree, or what it may be, but on good years it can be 50 or more. The nicest and easiest way to harvest, is to let the ordinary field farmers go to the apple trees, after they're done with the turnips/barely. Of cause this is only good manageable as long as the settlement is quite small, but it still works.

First picture

An overview of the settlement in year 37. You can see the menu on the next picture.

Second picture

This part of the settlement has become a bit too tidy. I try to avoid to set the houses in rows to get a more "medieval touch" but didn't succeed well here; too tidy. But I like the mixture of houses, other buildings, fields, pastures and forest. Here's the first of my two wagon vendors; located where people gather; by the well.

Third picture


Here's the other vendor, by the church. You can see, why I built them and the result. Health has improved. :) They also look nice and fit well in such a settlement.

You can see, I've built an apiary. I don't really like, that it needs sugar to produce. It's not easy to get enough. You can't produce it yourself. Even if you buy a lot, the apiary doesn't get more than 100, the rest goes into the houses. Unless you use some tiresome "tricks", like storing it in the trading port. I also think, it's not historically correct. Of cause the bees need some fodder during the winter and today they get cheap sugar, but in the "old days" sugar wasn't cheap. If people could get some, they wouldn't have given it to the bees. I guess, insted they didn't "steal" more honey, than the bees could survive the winter. If you want to keep the sugar, I suggest @Tom Sawyer, that you make two production variations; one with sugar and one without with a lower production.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 04, 2018, 06:29:34 AM
I have been playing a little the last days but I didn't write anything. Not much is happening. I expand slowly. It's nice and good to play. I take every nomad and now in year 49 the population is getting close to 200. I will play these "old times" a little longer. It's still interesting. The stores are full. There haven't been any tools offered for a long time, so I now produce some from iron, I've bought.

First picture.

We had Scarlet Fever. More or less everyone was ill. Two times; first in year 40 then again in year 46. I thought you were immune, if you had it once, but it doesn't look like it here. 5-10 people died each time.

There's a lot of meat in the stores. It's too much, even if I sell as much as I can, also to the lower price.

Second picture

You can see the small effect of the Scarlet Fever on the population graph. You can see @brads3 in this village more young girls than young boys want to move out early! ;) I like to have the menus open with single youngsters. Usually I have a handful of these houses. It could be more, if most 10 years old would have moved out, there would be more children. Not from them but from their parents. But I have no hurry to expand.

Third picture

Overview. As I've said before; I'm no fan of the apiary with the sugar. Here it was out again. I buy all sugar I can get, but people seem to love it. Not much left for the bees.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 04, 2018, 07:16:53 AM
good morning.NILLA. i take it you checked for males living with parents that were 10-12 yrs old?if so then maybe TOM tweaked the coding somehow.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 04, 2018, 01:49:16 PM
I like the structure of this settlement. It looks very grown, if that works in English. Also, the ratio of land for buildings and farming looks realistic somehow. Or it's just my impression. :)

With the bee yard I have to change something then. I included sugar not only because of realism. Actually to avoid it to become a spammed food generator. Every small object which produces food has this problem and a limited input material solves it without making it useless for the worker. In this case it seems to not work well with sugar grabbed by citizens. Just like with this old 'coal in houses' issue. I'm not sure yet how to solve it in the best way. Sugar can be inedible and counted together with salt to get better control of its use. Or I reduce it as input or even completely remove it with bee hives as only spam protection.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 05, 2018, 04:39:02 AM
Thank you @Tom Sawyer. :) I like this settlement, too. Mostly because the buildings are so lovely. It's easy to make it look pleasant. I would have liked to have the houses more "out of the rows", more medieval, more "kreuz und quer".  I try to put the direction of the houses different, try to leave different large space in between, but somehow it still turned out to be too neat.

To make sugar inedible? Maybe. You know what I think a but inedible food. But on the other hand, sugar is special and not really a nutrition, so it would not be as bad as uneatable grain. I would prefere two options of the apiary; one with sugar as input with the numbers today (around 400 honey I think) one without input but with less output, say around the half. Such a low output would make it less interesting to "spam" the map with easy to make food/export goods. It would also encourage us to try to get sugar to improve the productivity.

Am I right, when I think it's OK to load that fantastic, crazy looking new mill from @kid1293 to this map? I think that it would fit visually. In any case I will try it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 05, 2018, 09:07:28 AM
Yes, you can add this mill. It works well for firewood. It also brings lumber in your game but it is not a problem. The only thing is that merchants sometimes bring lumber instead of bricks. To produce it for export will probably not make sense yet. I have to update the mod for this.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 09, 2018, 04:10:32 AM
It's time to show a few more pictures from my Abbevi.

First picture

Yes, I´ve built the mill. The old Ludwight, who's assigned woodchopper and always been some kind of inventor, built it, because he found woodchopping to heavy for an old guy. It looks great in this game together with the North buildings. It works proper. It doesn't make much more firewood than a small chopper, but you can use more than 1 worker so it's OK. But you're right @Tom Sawyer, to use the lumber alternative, there has to be some "tweaks" of the numbers.

I keep the menus with my single youngsters open. I want to have some control of how many new homes are needed. It works quite well with a handfull. I also wanted to keep an eye on the happiness of young Arthurson, who lost his mother.

But.......

Second picture

Unfortunately both he and his father died of measles. :(   :'(

Since measles is a pretty bad decease, there are plenty of other children who lost parents to keep an eye on instead. I even have one family with 7 (!) children. I guess there must have been 3 families involved here. You can also see, that there have been a lot of empty houses for young folks to move to.

You can also see the beginning of my latest extention of the village. I now have a concept. I will try to fill this map. (except that small part in the south by the river). Left of the mountain (blue marked), there will be "old times" with farming and forestry, right "modern times" with red houses and early industry. It will take a while but it's still fun.

Third picture

This is the 5th (!) major deceases since year 40 (before that no decease) ??? 2 time Scarlat Fever, 2 time Measles and now Yellow Fever (I would take that tropical decease away from the North @Tom Sawyer). This seems odd. You have said, that unhealthy people get more sick and that you have increased this effect, but my people are all very healthy. Is this only bad luck or have you tweaked something else?

I have cut the menu of young Rome from about a year earlier. She must have lost one parent, but she started to recover happiness, as she moved out from home. It took some time, but now with a little baby, she's perfectly happy.

Fourth picture

The many deceases made me surrender my original plan, to play completely "old times" west from the "Big Mountain". I'm not sure, that I will use it, but you might have noticed that I'm not the most patient person. And these setbacks every other year with 10-30 deaths. I think, historically very correct, but NO fun!!

You can see the menu from young Mathie. She lost all her stars. I guess, she lost one parent late in the second measles epidemic, as the graveyards (9+32 graves for some 200 people!!) were full. She hasn't recovered any stars. I just ran the game a little, to see if something changes, when she gets a baby, but it doesn´t. Still unhappy.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 09, 2018, 09:00:00 AM
I increased the chance of diseases for unhealthy people only in Ironman. In Norseman there are vanilla values. But it's not only bad luck. You have way more merchants and nomads in your game than in vanilla. Both can bring diseases to your village and the chance is rather high. Maybe we should decrease this chance to balance the higher frequency.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 09, 2018, 11:23:37 AM
I increased the chance of diseases for unhealthy people only in Ironman. In Norseman there are vanilla values. But it's not only bad luck. You have way more merchants and nomads in your game than in vanilla. Both can bring diseases to your village and the chance is rather high. Maybe we should decrease this chance to balance the higher frequency.

First, I like the idea, that it's more likely to get a decease, if health is bad. I would like it to be a part of the North.

Then; this is Norseman. It's right, I take a lot of nomads. In fact, so far every nomad that arrives. But I don't think that's an exception, if you want some kind of "speed" in your game. Now with some 250 people, it doesn't matter that much, if one more nomad family arrives in spring or not. But earlier; I wouldn't have liked to play "real time aging" without them. I think, taking these nomads will be quite normal. We know, that @brads3 and @Abandoned have always played "real time" aging in the games they have blogged and they take a lot of nomads, too. So, yes, I would find it reasonable, to set the chance down, that nomads spread the deceases in Norseman, but maybe not in the North generally (if possible).

Trade might be a bit different. I have 4 trading docks. This settlement doesn't need more than 1 (or maybe 2 if I don't want to produce any tools ay all). The main reason, that I've built so many, is that I have a lot of goods to sell and I want to have a real use for your lovely bank later: I accumulate gold and silver. And since I want the high price for my goods, I wait for the "right" merchant. That's the reason for the trading dock spamming. I don't mind, if this is "punished" with a higher chance of decease.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 09, 2018, 12:41:53 PM
your death rate from those diseases seems high. do you have a doctor? i set the herb count to 1000 at start so the laborers run the count up as they clear land.i am running a mine safety mod and have less accident deaths but not sure if it impacts diseases.since you mentioned it i'll ask. does your game speed impact the death or disease rates? in other words you have diseases 8 times as often as a normal speed game and possably 8 times the death rates?odd but i suppose possable. sounds like TOM increased the disease rate with the traders. i wonder if somehow he changed the death factor as well,maybe without realizing it even?
     
       a disease that slows down the workers is one thing. the many deaths you have seems to negate the reason to take in nomads.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 09, 2018, 03:39:38 PM
I had no, doctor! That's the point. This is "old times", you know. Doctors were as far as I know unknown at the viking area/early medieval times, at least in our neighborhood (maybe the Arabs were a bit further). That's why I wrote, that I surrendered my original plan and built a doctor after the 5th decease. I haven't used it yet and I'm not sure I will, because I do want to play "old times" in all its consequences. I'll  let you know if the repeated deceases beat me.

In any case, more or less everyone gets ill. And each decease has its statistical mortality. I don't think it's tweaked in any way here. And @brads3, unless you play "Ironman" or some other mod with the same effect; health and decease are totally independent. So if you have 0 or 1000 herbs, doesn't matter. If you have enough doctors or not, however, matters a lot.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 09, 2018, 04:09:00 PM
As I wrote, all values of diseases are vanilla in Norseman and not even part of the North mod. It's only changed in the Ironman mod. Also, vanilla Banished already includes the difference between healthy and unhealthy people. And the only effect in a Nordic game or in every other modded game with additional nomad attractors is to get more diseases just because of more events to trigger them.

My idea is to adjust the vanilla values which are balanced for vanilla nomads and merchants. It just can be annoying to be hit by diseases too often and then its really no fun. At least this map here tells me that it should happen more seldom. These values are in the citizen resource file and that means to include real time aging in this mod together with changed diseases and maybe a more relevant happiness system. If most people play with Norseman anyway and vanilla speed aging is solved by early game nomads there might be no reason anymore to keep it separate. So that's an option. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: galensgranny on January 10, 2018, 01:07:54 AM
I had no, doctor! That's the point. This is "old times", you know. Doctors were as far as I know unknown at the viking area/early medieval times, at least in our neighborhood (maybe the Arabs were a bit further). That's why I wrote, that I surrendered my original plan and built a doctor after the 5th decease. I haven't used it yet and I'm not sure I will, because I do want to play "old times" in all its consequences. I'll  let you know if the repeated deceases beat me.

The vikings of old might not have had what we consider doctors or even what the Arabs of the time were doing medically, but they certainly had people tending to wounds and broken bones.  They wouldn't have likely had a separate building for that, but just pretend they did, or that the doctor building in the game is actually a house a person who cares for wounds lives in.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 10, 2018, 02:02:08 AM
I'm sure you're right @galensgranny, even though I don't think, there would have been special buildings for sick and wounded people. I'm also sure, that there were "wise ladies" who could heal and ease illnesses and pain, but I'm pretty sure, that none of them could do much in cases of inflectional deceases, like Scarlat Fever, Measles, and Yellow Fever (if some viking who returned from a very long journey, happened to get that decease).

Maybe later in medieval times, there were some hospital-like building connected to monasteries. So maybe I should load the monastery mod from @RedKetchup to this game and build it together with a bigger church close to the hospital............... hm...... I'll think of it.

Sorry @brads3; you´re right; your herbs would help a bit to lower the probability of deseases.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 10, 2018, 03:32:39 AM
You could use the mini-buildings mod where the hospital is just a tent.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 10, 2018, 10:37:01 AM
I find healer/herbalist a suitable health profession of old times. Diseases like plague and all the other funny things Luke added to the game people never could heal in the Middle Ages, also not in a monastery. Actually only after the 19th century when they got knowledge about infections and antibiotics. So if you play a medieval scenario consistently then you actually have to leave hospitals out and to deal with heavily decimated populations by diseases. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 11, 2018, 03:26:39 AM
To be honest, it wouldn't have been possible to heal these deceases until the second half of the 20Th century or maybe not at all. When I was a child Scarlac Fever was much worse than today. If you got it, you had to be isolated in the hospital and I don't think, there was a real cure. I can remember, maybe around 1960, that my cousin got it and we visited her in the hospital and had to stay in a room next to hers with a window and a speaker. But as my daughter got it in the 1990s it was harmless, treated with antibiotics and fast gone. I had Measles myself and it was seen as a bad classical childhood decease. I don't think, it can be cured today eather, just prevented with vaccination. So the Banished hospital is unrealistic no matter what. But this is a computer game, so I've built it and I've used it! :-\ :-[  Maybe some other time, I will play withot hospital.

Some picture and some comments.

First picture

I like the thought of some kind of monastery. With a doctor, church, later a school and some other official buildings. They have a chapel, so they are Christian, so why not? I thought of the monastery from Red. It's nice and make valuable books, excellent to trade for a small community. But I have more goods to trade away, than I need and I have my doubts on the compability; using coal, leather and wood, if I remember it right. This is how my monastery looks now. I will develop it further later, looking a bit different than the other settlement.

Second picture


Here's the population graph. I've marked the deceases: red - Scarlat Fever, blue - Measles, yellow - Yellow Fever. The number of deaths is not that devastating. The settlement would grow even without a doctor (unless you get several of these rare and very lethal deceases) but the repeated setbacks annoys me and makes it harder to test the "flow" in a "normal" game.

The south west part of the settlement is done. I try to make it easy for the vendors; producing all food categories and firewood in the area.

Third picture

This is a request to all modders, not to make any buildings without a road in front of the entrance. This poor child is stuck at the door opening and can't get away. She will starve or freeze to death. This because I built the diary hut too close to the barn. I know, it's my fault and I should have paid more attention, but it would be easier, if it wasn't possible to make these mistakes.

Fourth picture

I have so many menus open in most of my screenshots, so I just want to give you a better impression of my village without. Wagon vendors is a "must". Look great, fit the buildings and are obviously very popular! :)

Fifth picture
The big church also attracts nomads. But opposite to the small chapel, they can't make their way to the settlement. :(  I tried to make them work in this small isolated place; clear some wood, build a barn and collect some food, but they will not work!

Does anyone know, how the nomad arriving works. Can things like these be prevented somehow? Normally they come from somewhere on the edge of the map, it's seldom problems with obstacles like these. On rare occasions, I've had some who got stuck on the other side of a small stream, but normally they come from somewhere close to the settlement.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 11, 2018, 03:31:09 AM
do you have bridges on the main river so they can pass ? (right part of the map main river, or south left part ?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 11, 2018, 03:41:11 AM
No bridges, and I'm not sure, that it would help, because there are also big mountains on the way. I'll build a bridge to see, if it works for the next "batch" of nomads. Do they always come from the same place?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 11, 2018, 04:05:17 AM
No bridges, and I'm not sure, that it would help, because there are also big mountains on the way.

they certainly can walk between the mountains and the lake (on the shore of the lake)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 11, 2018, 06:48:13 AM
i usually debug in a couple plank bridges for the nomads when that happens.TOM won't let you do that though. i figure anyone can throw a dead log across the creek or some stones even.it is a long ways to send builders and by then the nomads would die. i do think the next batch will come from the same spot. generally that has been the case but some mods do change it up depending on what you build. RED's lighthouse was known to do that as you add a trading post or a townhall. the bannies will make the hike as long as they can cross the rivers without starving. standing still waiting for the builder will give them time to starve though.
they will not work as laborers or nothing since they have no tools yet. i also think they have to finish their hike to the nomad catcher,be it the townhall,well,etc.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 11, 2018, 08:49:43 AM
Yes, that's a problem of the vanilla church. It has not the right points in model and the game cannot define a suitable spawning location. It doesn't happen with the wooden chapel and every new church. Actually I find it a funny exception and it's written in the description that they come from far away and sometimes need bridges to reach the town. In this special case I'm not sure if a bridge would help but you could try to build a secluded settlement there. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 12, 2018, 04:39:14 AM
I've built the bridge, and yes; it worked. I didn't see, where they appeared, but they arrived at the church, as they should. Thanks @RedKetchup. I wonder why such problems have happened so seldom to me in all my games before. I can only remember a few times. Luck I suppose.

In this special game it doesn't matter anymore. I will not take any more nomads. In fact I think I've let the population grow too high already. I'm not sure, if it's possible to support a growing population on this small piece of land. My plan was to play "old times" to a population of around 400, then build schools and start some industries. But I'm not sure it will work this way. 400 people is done; no big problem. But to get a part of the population educated, will take "for ever", at least very long. And this game is far from a self runner. There's still some very necessary micromanagement needed. Without starting the harvest manually, they would all starve to death in a few years. In a "harsh" climate, the harvest more or less ought to be done, at the point it would start automatically. I use to start it at the beginning of August. I also send people out in the woods to collect berries and firewood, maybe not needed, but far less work than the harvest.

Norseman

I've been thinking a bit about the settings for this "real time mod". I can now write about how it works, in a society without education. This will probably not be the normal case, so take these conclusions for what they are. But some things are probably general.

The combination real time ageing and few nomads often at the chapel, works well. The game has a "flow". You can develop the settlement continuously. I use to have issues with real time mods. The gameplay gets too slow for me, but I don't feel that way in this game. So I wouldn´t complain all too much, if you made this "standard" for the North, @Tom Sawyer. ;)

Are there any problems?  Not really, but these are the things, that I find a little bit disturbing:

1. There are much more 1 person families than in a vanilla game. You need more houses, more firewood, and it's harder to plan the development. This because;
- Young adults occupying houses by themselves.
- Many widows/widowers finds no partner in a suitable age.

Could something be done to change this? I don't like a marrying age of 10 but maybe it could be set down to 14 or 15 instead of 16. The childbirth age mustn't be set lower. The house would be full of children anyway. Maybe also the age of getting adult could be raised a year. But I'm not sure how this would work with schools. There would still be young adults living alone but at least this would shorten the time.

The age difference of marriages shouldn't be set lower than the vanilla 20 years. People start to die of old age earlier here. That's alright. The average age in the "old times" were lower than that. But people can be old here too. But a 55 year old widow doesn't take a 71 year old widower. I wouldn't mind, if it was raised a bit more than 20. But not so much, that a 50 year old widow takes a 16 year old husband. A possible higher age difference would also increase the chances of people, who lost a partner in accents, to get remarried.
 
2. Age of the nomads.

When the settlement is small, there's always one nomad couple, later they may have children. The adults have been between 20 and 40. A couple may have an agedifference of 20 years here. The woman of my first 3 couples were all above 30. Two of them 38 and 39 only became one child. This wasn't very nice at the beginning, as I wanted many children. Could the age of arriving nomads be set? If it could, I would prefere them to 20-30. This would also give the couples a more similar age; less young widowed person.

Pictures

Here's my "monastery" area. There's now a school and the houses are different and more in "order" than in the rest of the village. There will also be production of bricks and glass. This is historically correct, monasteries often spread new technologies.

You can see the food graph. If you play "harsh", a big store of food is necessary. There have been 3 bad years (cold) in a row.


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 12, 2018, 07:03:03 AM
hmmm,your complaint with the age situtation sounds like it is mainly the singles moving out from the parents.my understanding is TOM has set the variables similar to the propertime mod.did you overplay it?? did you move bannies out at the youngest age possable? what is your adult or student age,your marry and child bearing ages?

    in propertime,the children become laborers or go to school at 10,at 16 they marry or move together.this works out so by the time they finish school,they are ready to start families.in a normal play i hold off building houses until i have 16 yr old females.that allows for the female to have children.it isn't foolproof,sometimes a single male will take a house. i have seen the younger sister take it instead as well. distance from their work seems to matter.
      without education,you could force the bannies to move out at the younger age.however,they will be single and not bear children for several years.in the short run,you have children in the parents house,but in the long run is it costing you?? you might delay the move together and new children. you also are paying by havig to stock more houses. in the harsh north,you must use resources more carefully.
     did,NILLA play a 1:1 game at  8x speed? you are used to playing vanilla speed so planned houses according to that.you also normally educate children. with your micro-managing,i think the slpwer age would suit you once you are used to it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 12, 2018, 12:54:09 PM
I've built the bridge, and yes; it worked. I didn't see, where they appeared, but they arrived at the church, as they should. Thanks @RedKetchup. I wonder why such problems have happened so seldom to me in all my games before. I can only remember a few times. Luck I suppose.


they will pass every creeks if needed, they will run between every mountains/lakes if needed, but they will never cross and swim the main river. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2018, 03:10:15 PM
Finally Nilla will be convinced to real time and not playing strange speed aging anymore.^^ Solved by early nomads and now well balanced I think. Your idea to reduce the gap between moving out and moving together of uneducated youngsters should work. I will try some values. And the marriage range I will set to 20 years. The age of nomads cannot be defined. But of course you can pick only the young sweet couples and send away old people back into the cold where they will find a cruel end for sure. Up to you. ;D

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 12, 2018, 03:24:45 PM
send away old people back into the cold where they will find a cruel end for sure.

Hey! Me being one of those 'old people' (66), I'm not so sure I like that idea. LOL! Just kidding.  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 12, 2018, 03:56:47 PM
You could try to use the mod oneyearisoneyear. Children become adults at 6 and marry at 7. Although, pregnancy won't come until 15.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 13, 2018, 09:51:46 AM
they will pass every creeks if needed, they will run between every mountains/lakes if needed, but they will never cross and swim the main river. :)

I've been thinking a bit , why I have seen so seldom, that nomads get stuck somewhere. I think I know why. Normally I'm no big "nomad taker". In most games nomads are more trouble than help. This is different, I need the nomads, otherwise it would have been much too slow at the beginning.

Finally Nilla will be convinced to real time and not playing strange speed aging anymore.^^ Solved by early nomads and now well balanced I think. Your idea to reduce the gap between moving out and moving together of uneducated youngsters should work. I will try some values. And the marriage range I will set to 20 years. The age of nomads cannot be defined. But of course you can pick only the young sweet couples and send away old people back into the cold where they will find a cruel end for sure. Up to you. ;D

Convinced is maybe a little bit excessive. I did say that I wouldn't complain ALL TOO MUCH, if you would make Norsemen standard. ;)

Unfortunately, you don't know the age and gender of the nomads before you take them, so if I say "yes", I will be stuck with the 39 year old woman with her 21 year old husband. They will only get one child and he will soon be a very young widower, occupying a house by himself for a long time. But this is the game. Obstacles are made to defeat! :) And luckily, real adults like you and me @Hawk (and several others in this community), don't get out on the roads, to find a new home, at least not in Banished.

You could try to use the mod oneyearisoneyear. Children become adults at 6 and marry at 7. Although, pregnancy won't come until 15.

I have tried that mod, but there are things, I don't like about it; the young marrying age above all. I prefere these one-person-housholds. If it's possible to shorten the time down, I think it's the best compromise, I've seen.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 13, 2018, 10:05:29 AM
Well, there's one thing I always do when playing. I only build houses for single females not for males. Males stay at home unless they marry and move to their wives. Until then, they stay at their parents' home.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 13, 2018, 10:08:59 AM
what is your max age? that would fix the widow issue.  the versiojn of propertime i use allows bannies to 75-85. if you check the change log,the 1:1 mod does have some different versions also.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 13, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
Well, there's one thing I always do when playing. I only build houses for single females not for males. Males stay at home unless they marry and move to their wives. Until then, they stay at their parents' home.

i guess in their parents' basement ? ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 13, 2018, 02:03:19 PM
Well, there's one thing I always do when playing. I only build houses for single females not for males. Males stay at home unless they marry and move to their wives. Until then, they stay at their parents' home.

How do you make the single females move out? If I build a house and want one of my 16-20 years old females move there, I bet, an 11 year old male or female moves into it.

But I actually think @brads3 said something; that distance to work also have an influence on who will move into a house. I think this might very well be an explanation to the fact, I just described. I expand the settlement in more or less one direction. The children who were born first, live more far away from the new house than younger children. I had two sisters 20 and 18 who didn't want to move out even though I built more houses than usual. They didn't move out, until one of the singel young men became 16 and wanted a wife.

what is your max age? that would fix the widow issue.  the versiojn of propertime i use allows bannies to 75-85. if you check the change log,the 1:1 mod does have some different versions also.

They start to die of old age in their late 50s, but I had at least one 80 years old, but @Tom Sawyer can answer this better.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 13, 2018, 02:19:09 PM
In my games, most of the times, the first born is female. I always play Anders and Ella. If a male comes first then I'll do it with them.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 13, 2018, 06:16:51 PM
they are bannies not people. you got to think weird to figure them out. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 13, 2018, 07:00:36 PM
they are bannies not people. you got to think weird to figure them out. ;D

LOL! I heard that. LOL!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 14, 2018, 01:52:27 AM
they are bannies not people. you got to think weird to figure them out. ;D
You nailed it @brads3!  :D

There's not much to tell from my town. It grows slowly. At the moment there are a lot of young males but no young females. We're also in a period of many cold summers and sometimes, there's mostly proteins left before the new harvest starts. We need some herbs, but my Bannis manage.

I've also struggled a bit to get enough firewood. It was never any problem, but when the store slowly gets smaller each spring, it's time to take action. It looks like I can't expand fast enough. I suppose these old houses need a lot of firewood and the smokers and brickmaker also need some. I looked a bit and saw something; I mean, that you wrote somewhere @Tom Sawyer, that choppers are one of the professions, that don't lose efficiency with uneducated workers. But they do. They only make 3 firewood from each log.

I don't know, how long I like to continue this game. The harvest is quite boring. I need so many fields, that I have to stop the game, to start the harvest. It's OK to start the harvest manually, as long as there are a few fields, but here, NO! I can't recommend farming in a larger North settlement on harsh. The question is; is it possible to support a larger settlement without farming? I'm not sure. It was possible in the last version, but here I have the impression, that it's harder to get good pay for your trading goods. I want to find out in my next game. Do you plan any changes soon? I would volunteer to test your ideas of unhappiness, if you have come any further. Let me know. @Tom Sawyer.

First picture

I may have shown similar over-all-pictures before, but I find it looks nice. The sisters I spoke of yesterday, lived in the marked house and the new houses are all in the north, outside this picture. And there are a lot of houses with young adults closer to the new homes.

Second picture

The first fire.

This summer was very warm and the winter came late, so the harvest was huge. There are a lot of turnips in the stores. There were two bad summers in a row. Turnips is the crop, that grows the best, so I changed some of the barley to turnips to get more food.

Third picture

Small industry area. We are waiting for educated workers. It takes long! You can also see the many single males.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 14, 2018, 02:53:02 AM
I was pulling your leg, Nilla. I had to change the way I play because of the harsh life in the North mod specially in the Anders and Ella start. Now I build a house of four and keep the children after adulthood until I'm sure there are plenty of food to support more households. Otherwise, they die of starvation.
No parents should bury their children. The same aspect goes to nomads too. They die if there's not enough food. Fishing is the main source of food, but, I have to make sure there's at least a fishingman in each household. For that, I have to build widely apart the houses.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 14, 2018, 03:38:48 AM
Haha yes, excessive.. actually just kidding. My personal challenge to make this speed aging unnecessary in Banished. :)

I think you have reached the limits of the medieval part of the mod with your big village on this rather small piece of land (the limits of farming in harsh climate anyway). It's shown in the short coming firewood, restrictions in trading and efficiency at all. It even forced you to go partly into modern age already. I like if it becomes a rather gradual process forced by requirements of a growing settlement and not by just placing modern looking houses.

Educated people would not make more than 3 firewood from a log but modern time brings sustainable forestry and of course less fuel consuming houses and also the opportunity to mine coal as alternative fuel to heat houses when wood becomes rare. To build an export economy as strategy in harsh climate the small Viking docks with their barter traders are too limited. Building trading posts (which have to be replaced by new models one day) will change it into a money based economy as you know from version 5. It also brings dalers in game as currency of late game for merchants with way more purchasing power.

A new test version with reworked happiness system I would like to make. But have to solve some problems with that. For example to find a replacement for the "health" aspect. I don't want the hospital to provide happiness. It should be build in the periphery, not in center of a town with idling people there to infect the whole population and so on. Maybe it can be utilized by items for "recreation" or something else. At least the mod needs a reasoned set of happiness providers before I reduce the default happiness.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 14, 2018, 05:02:28 AM
What about a witch's hut or lady of the dead?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 14, 2018, 11:16:05 AM
@Turis, have you tried the "instant gathering" tool? That's my main source of food at the beginning in a small settlement. In summer everyone have to go out in the woods to collect food. Besides Anders and Ella also can grow turnips. You don't need a farmer all time, just to plant and harvest. If you use these two food sources and the "instant hunting" tool now and then, you'll never need to have food problems at the beginning.

And you are so right @Tom Sawyer, I'm pretty sure, that I've reached the limits for "old times" on this map. Normally I would have entered the "modern times" much earlier. But as I said, I wanted to see how "old times" work in a bit larger settlement. And now we know, that it works fine. I also like to reach the limits of a map. It's a nice challenge to try to manage anyway.

"Recreation" sounds good. Isn't the brewery in vanilla, some kind of recreation? In any case, I would like your inn to have a larger importance. So far I use to build one in my games, just because I like the building, but I never really use it. Unless you've changed some settings, I never have enough raw material (blueberries for liqueur, annoying crayfishes) to use it. I also find your witch idea excellent, @Turis . We don't even need an extra building. Use the herbalist as "happinessmaker". It's much better than the hospital. With a good diet and a good distribution of goods, herbalists are of little use anyway (unless you want to trade the valuable herbs they collect). Let them tell the fortune of people, make love portions, curse the evil neighbor and other "witch crafts", that make people happy! ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 16, 2018, 05:14:13 AM
I've left the village Abbevi. It will probably be unpleasant for the inhabitants, if it continues to grow. But about that, we'll never know. Maybe some of the inhabitants will go away, maybe to another settlement in the neighborhood, maybe even to Elkville. Who knows.......

Anyhow, I played until the first student left school. She was 16 and I guess she lived close to a school. I had other 16 year old students who moved out. That's not good on a big map. Normally they will move far away from the school and it takes "for ever" until they are done with school, because they spend more times "on the road" than in school. In this case, it was my own fault. There were several young single males in houses of their own and no adult young females. But is it this way in a more "normal" settlement, where schools are built earlier?

We discussed the other day, how to decrease the time a single youngster live in a house alone. It would be good, to have the time short in a "old times" game, without schools. But I think it's different in a game with schools. It's not good, if a lot of students move out. The best would be, if the student who lives on an average distance from school, would graduate before he/she reach the age to move out. So what's good without schools, might be bad with schools, unless the time in school is short. Not easy to solve in a good way.

Now I have decided to test how these things work in another game. In my new game I will enter the "modern times" as fast as possible: build a school fast and support the settlement more with trade; no tedious farms on "harsh".

There is one small thing, that was a bit disturbing on this map. Farmers work in many of these smaller buildings; workplace, bakery, diary hut, smokers, salters.... Often you can change the production between different things. In a small settlent, this is perfect. But not in this big village. I ran out of salt. No problems by the salters; just turn them off, but I let the diaries produce skyr instead of cheese. After a while, I could buy some salt and turned the salters on and wanted to change the production in the diaries, but it wasn't easy to find the buildings. The same, if I produce wool clothes in some workplace and find, that it's enough. I have to remember where I had this production and that's not easy. I had at least 10 of these workplaces. There are several other of these small "annoyances". If there was a special profession, I would have clicked the menu and found them at once.

Now, I guess you will not use the workplaces in the same way in "modern times". There are other (as I hope) more efficient buildings to grind flour and make clothes. But I think diaries, smokers, salter will still make sense in a large modern settlement. This is another thing I want to test in my new game.

First picture

A last picture from Abbevi. You can see why I say it might be unpleasant, if the settlement continues to grow. I've cut in the production. On good years (last) production of food it's a little bit more than they use, but on bad years (this) much less. Also the production the last 10 years wasn't sustainable. (cut in)

Second picture

Elkville (first random name). Starting position. Map and settings cut in. I have the same mods loaded as in my last game. Except The North and Norseman (!!!  ;) :D) I don't know, if I'm going to use any of the others. I'm also thinking about loading the salt- and leatherworks from @embx61, the blast furnice from @Discrepancy (is it compatible?) and maybe something else. I'll tell you if I do.

Third picture

Year 3. Everyone have a house and a coat. Some have tools but I had to stop the production. I planned to make 6 tools to begin with, so I needed to make 9 iron. No problem that far, even if it took some time. But one of the Bannis loved the iron so much, that he carried it around ½ year or more. Now @Turis, they are all busy collecting food out in the woods, but more tools will be produced, as soon as the frost comes.

Fourth picture

This settlement is weird. There is one boy (just adult) and 4 girls. I built a house out in the woods for young Austice, just to make room for a little brother, but no brother was born. It was a third sister. I had to restart the game, to get that first baby boy. Also the other family, who had two small girls got a third baby; a girl. I had to reload 3 (!!!) times , Issa is really a boy!  :-\ :D

Anyway, everything works well; there's food, firewood, clothes and tools. So they wanted to praise the Lord. No objections. Expansion next. I hope the nomads bring boys for all my girls and no Scarlet Fever.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 16, 2018, 07:45:33 AM
Hmmms... Nice place to raid and take a few slaves to work in my household and fields. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 16, 2018, 08:27:08 AM
hmmm,ne careful what you wish for. there are so many different ideas to the way ages are dealt with,you might start a stampede.most didn't like the bannies moving out at 10 and marrying young.it is a juggle to find a balance between what players want and what works well with the game.with you only needing educated workers on certain jobs,how "lucky" does the game put educated workers where you want them?if educated workers would do the right jobs,you could try a smaller school and only educate some bannies instead of all. since you like to play medievel,do you want them marrying and having children at 13? i'll duck from everyone throwing knives or pans at us. doing that you could school them 6-12 years of age.by the way,the distance to school doesn't impact all age mods.that factor was taken out of the propertime mod.

      i take it from your explanation that the workplaces use laborers or some how are set to just farmers.they are interesting but i can see you have good and bad points. with large towns, it isn't easy to remember where every building is. what i find that works is to set different shops to different items and use the limit to control them. as 1 runs out of material,they become an extra laborer. i do this with small blacksmiths and tailors.with the pine mod,i am putting out minimum 3 types of coats. in early game i can switch a tailor, after a while it is easier to have 3 shops.1 for leather,pelts,and 1 for furs.the clothing limit controls them. i do same thing with tools,start with stone tools and work up to iron or steel.this is also an insuance policy to prevent running out due to a material shortage.
     i would like to hear more on how your workplaces work up there. TOM has definetly added some interesting tools.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 16, 2018, 08:42:50 AM
Beware, Nilla! They are already at my gates with torches and pitchforks. Now they want to raid and enslave your people. Not sure what to do.. maybe developing as fast as possible to leave the old days before they come.^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 16, 2018, 09:56:43 AM
Hm ! As I said, I play this game because I don't have to battle and develop weapon, but these people are vikings, or at least viking decentants, so you are welcome @Turis. We'll see who enslave who. There will soon be some "nice" mines in this settlement. Workers are always welcome. ;)

Well @brads3, I don't actually wish for anything in this case. I only describe what I see, how it works and my thoughts about possible changes. I´m, also well aware, that this is only valid here, in my game, with my preferences. Others see it different. I know that.

Yes, I plan to put the educated people, where I want them. Not the way you "suggest" by only educate some. I will educate all and build new houses, where I want these educated people. I do the same or rather the opposite in a "normal" game, if I take uneducated nomads and everyone else is educated. They can't live "where they want". I use to make "ghettos" for uneducated (OK, normally these houses look the same as the rest, sometimes even nicer) where they are far away from "critical" professions like blacksmiths and tailors. In this game I will build the houses for the young educated close to such "facilities". It's not totally foolproof but mostly it works.

I know, that the distance from school doesn't matter in some of these mods, but I don't like it;one more thing, that normally has to be planned, is taken away. It "flattens" the game; makes it easier and less interesting.

The workplaces use farmers. And if you have 100 farmers it's not possible to find the right one. But it's good, if you have few. When the harvest is done, you just close the field and the farmer goes into the workplace and in spring, you close the workplace. No changes of professions. You also know where the farmer is; close to home, to get to his fields in time and not "out in the woods".

I have no workplace yet in this village, but I'll show you the options, when I've built one.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 16, 2018, 10:08:19 AM
News have reached warning you of men armed with spears, axes and shields marching toward your village chanting continuosly: "Fish... We want fish!"
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 16, 2018, 10:50:09 AM
i see. so there is some manual manipulation to the workplaces but they only hire farmers. it is different. i doubt it can be full auto where the farmers go to the workplaces only in winter after the fields are harvested.thank you for the added info.be good to see some outputs.

     not sure how i feel with that setup. there is good and bad, but i think it is the way the game let TOM code it. it is 1 way of trying to make the bannies do work like people really did way back then. i thought of a homestead farm idea,that would do similar in total outputs.would have to be a fairly large footprint. a house,small storage,field,fruit tree,and a small pasture and animal shed.function as a workplace for 2 workers that gives enough food,tools,clothing,etc that the family needs plus like 25% more.TOM's way does similar in using the 2 bannies to get 2 different goods each year.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 16, 2018, 11:05:10 AM
Beware, Nilla! They are already at my gates with torches and pitchforks. Now they want to raid and enslave your people. Not sure what to do.. maybe developing as fast as possible to leave the old days before they come.^^


He is certainly preparing something !!!!!!!!  ::)  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 17, 2018, 07:12:40 AM
It seems like I scared every potential looter with my viking warnings. Everything is peaceful.   ;D

You're right @brads3, these seasonal changes of work, aren't fully automatic and I agree, I don't think it's possible to make it that way. But there isn't much micromanagement. Autumn; open the workplace, close the field, open the field again. Spring; close the workplace and the farmer finds his field. One thing; it's bad, if you forget to close the workplace in time, before the sawing has to start. No way of playing in 10X speed. I made a screenshot from my workplace, extra for you @brads3. Look at picture 4.

First picture

I know, that you are clever @Tom Sawyer, but how you can build a teenage rebellion function into your mod, is admirable! ;)

I don't know how this started. I only noticed, that I had a charburner on a whole winter and only 6 charcoal was produced. I couldn't understand why. There was enough firewood, no limits were reached. I found this young Austice idling at the (empty) graveyard. I closed the charcoal burner and made him a laborer. He stayed at the graveyard, even though it was plenty of work to be done. I looked at him the whole summer. He only left a few times; to get home to grab something to eat, then back to the graveyard. Next winter the same; unfortunately, he again was assigned charcoaler and continued to protest against this dirty, hard work. This year we really needed the charcoal, so I had to build a second burner. This made Austice a herbalist ; a profession to his liking. He actually started to work! Not as herbalist. It was winter and during the winter herbalist do laborers work. He was diligent; picking firewood in the forest (blueberries last summer was below his dignity), and he carried heavy logs to the building site. Teenage protest time over!

Can anyone explain this in another way. ???

Second picture

Again a 39 year old nomad woman. I need a lot of children at the beginning. I made a test. I went back to the autosave. It was just before the nomads arrived. This time the woman was much younger. I will not do this often, but it's good to know, that it's possible.

Third picture

I must show you Austice. He's 17 years old and the rebellious time has passed. Now he even works as a charcoaler! :) ;)

Fourth picture

Here @brads3 is your workplace. The picture shows all options. At the moment it's only used to grind flour from wheat I bought. The profit isn't very high; 69 flour from 60 grain. But that's alright, the productivity is quite high and the following baker increases the amount of food more, 24 flour gives 36 bread. It's all uneducated worker and I don't know, if there's a difference, if they are educated.

Just after I made this screenshot, I got some sheep and will soon start to make wool coats. In my other settlement, I also made some ale, when I had a lot of barley (ale counts as grain). The profit of ale is small, but it's fun to make. I also made leather from cow hides, winter coats and jam from berries and bought sugar.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 17, 2018, 07:44:34 AM
The Warriors reach your village and start roaming the area and vandalizing all buildings, screaming, 'Fish... We want fish!' all the time. After a while, they just walk around, still yelling, 'Fish... We want fish' all day and night tirelessly.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 17, 2018, 08:51:44 AM
LOL. i have seen the bannies do strange things for no reason.glad in your case it solved itself. i stripped the registry and reloaded a few mods at a time for a week trying to find a quirky glitch. the pine mod workers wanted to help the builder and stopped working thier workplaces and wouldn't collect food.never could force it to happen again or understand why.they are bannies and have minds of their own.glad yours was minor.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 18, 2018, 02:33:35 AM
I was hoping that Nilla would write a short story about a possible battle, but, obviously, she doesn't want to play with me so... nevermind.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 18, 2018, 04:55:56 AM
I'm sorry @Turis, I'm no @Abandoned. My talent for making stories is very limited, but wait, there might be something later.........I guess your looters are lost in the deep forests and haven't found the right village yet. ;) The merchants have brought rumours about some southern savages, only eating raw fish, messing around with the people in some remote villages. The inhabitants of Elkville, true viking decedents are more amused than worried, but some do bring their pitch forks, axes and scythes into their houses, instead of leaving them at work. Just in case..........

No looters, so the game runs smooth. I only made 2 screenshots yesterday.

First picture

I've built the big forester. It was probably too early in the game. I would like to sell more wood. It's a good profit, but the trading docks are small and can't store much, so the forester is much unemployed. There are many laborers and in winter they don't have much other things to do, than to pick firewood and the logs needed to build are cleared on building sites and for "landscaping". I'm trying to create a birch forest in the chapel area.

Second picture

Finally enough rooftiles to build a school. This is certainly a village of young folks rebellion. I wanted the three kids; Noellen, Hely and Marceli to attend school, but no, they refused and became laborers just before the school was opened.

Randt was 16 last year, but instead of moving to one of the single girls 18 and 21 years old he moved in with the 30 years old widow Benity and her three children.  ::)

I just realized, that there's no brick/rooftiles needed for the city hall. I could have built it years ago. I have had glass for a long time. But it doesn't matter. It's under construction now.

Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 19, 2018, 04:43:30 AM
The merchants told more stories about looting hordes from the south. The many single teenage girls have started to ask questions about them. Saying, that if they are young and handsome, they may come and stay. They need husbands; real men and the young boys in this village is no pleasure to see; too few and too meek. They tell the merchants, if they see any foreigners, to tell them about the many beautiful, tall, blond girls in this village. They promise to cook fish every day. They may even serve it raw, if needed. Just as long as they don't have to eat the fish raw themselves. The old folks are a bit torn about this talk. Some try to hold the girls back, not wanting any strangers in the peaceful village. Other people, especially the parents of the girls, say that they are well capable to tame the wildest barbarian and they need to get a husband, the sooner the better.............

First picture

First you can see my birch forest around the chapel and town hall.

The graphs shows the population- and the "not schoolbook" looking food graph. It was obvious, that I had to take some action; two more trading docks. That's the trick, when you don't farm. The trick and the only way to support your population. No field spamming, instead trading port spamming.

I keep one house menu open up in the left corner. It's the oldest boy. As you might have understood, there are a lot of young girls, but I will not build a new house until the first boy is 16.

Second picture


You can see my store. I have bought a lot of rye and wheat and processed it to flour and bread. Even if people have rye, wheat and flour in there houses, more bread was made than bought grain.

You can also see a part of what I sell. There's also furs and wool. I buy wheat, rye, bread, vegetables and tools. But why @Tom Sawyer are turnips more expensive than other vegetables?

Third picture

People start to leave school. Students who live very close to school graduate with 14 (blue). But you don't have to live far away to make it 16.(red) I think, the time in school is as good as it can get.

The third menu open is my first fully educated couple. I plan to make a fully educated village on the other side of the river. So they soon will have to move.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 21, 2018, 02:55:56 AM
Not much to tell about this game. I'm about to "redesign" the settlement; now educated people, red houses, industry. I'm not done yet, so I can't say much, how it works. I think it's possible to support a settlement with trade but my impression just now, is that you will need more trading ports, than in earlier versions. I have the feeling, that there are more merchants, who have nothing I want, than it was before. But I'm not sure. Maybe it's possible to order more in a different way. There's still a lot to check out.

First picture

These industrial buildings are really masterpieces!

Second picture

Here's the goods the Warehouse stores. I know, I have asked this before, but don´t remember; it stores firewood but no ore. Why? I also see, that it stores salt. Is this good? Without any additional mods, salt is only used for food producers. It's rather disturbing to store it the warehouse. It's different, of cause, if you want to use it with EB leatherworks. I might load that mod later to this game.

You can see, that there's a lot of proteins but not so much other food in the stores. I have tried to stop the barter trade. It doesn't work well, at least not yet with only one big trading port.


Oh, @Turis, I almost forgot to tell about the many young girls who hoped for an invasion of handsome southern men. Nothing more is heard from the "wildlings". The girls kept on asking the merchants and they assured, that they spread their offer but probably the wild guys were scared of the thought of marrage with a powerful viking descendant or maybe they had wives, they loved at home, who they missed and turned back to see. Or maybe they just got enough fish from other girls in another village. No one knows. The girls eventually found husbands in their own village.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 21, 2018, 03:16:53 AM
Very funny, @Nilla !!! ;D

I love women who looks just like my coffee, blond and sweet. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Abandoned on January 23, 2018, 05:13:14 AM
I was up very early this morning and finally found time to catch up a bit on blog reading.  As always @Nilla a lot of good information.  Some nice storytelling there too.  :)

As you mentioned, I do always play with the 1:1 aging mod (proper time in the North) and accept nomads in the early years.  After building the nomad attractor I watch for first arrivals.  If arrival time is delayed I build one or more bridges to make sure they reach town from the edge of the map.  Most often a short bridge across a stream is all that is needed on a small map.

Two important factors I consider with 1:1 aging and nomads are 1st - I build a small school as soon as possible to help maintain % of educated workers and 2nd - is to build some type of hospital to have ready to open should disease strike. I choose a location that is easily reached for a quick cure.

I will as always look forward to my next trip North.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 24, 2018, 08:08:32 AM
Well, @Hawk, these girls might be blond but I wouldn't call them sweet. They are tough and strong viking descendants. One day giving birth to a child, next day doing their hard work as blacksmiths , miners or farmers as usual, without any cut in the production. Maybe the wild guys from the south heard of it and didn't dare to show up.

@Abandoned, in the new North, early education isn't that important anymore. Basic professions like farmers, gatherers, hunters, woodchopper normally produce the same; educated or uneducated. If you play the North "pure" you can't even build a school until you have enough bricks and glass. In my first game, I wanted to play "old times" for a long time so it wasn't an option. I though about the mini school from Kid for a while in my second game, where I want to play more "modern times" with professions where education matters. But I decided to wait. Primary to test the North in all its consequences. And it hasn't been a problem at all.

I haven't played very much, not much has happened. The population grows slowly but fast enough without new nomads. The educational rate increases. I try to find a strategy for the trade. It's not easy and obvious what to do. I still have the impression, that many merchants bring things I don't need. I have started to order a little bit more vegetables and bread. We'll see, how it turns out. Is it a bug or deliberate, that bread has the value of 3 and turnips 4?

I also would like to know your thoughts about clothes production and the values/profit of producing clothing, @Tom Sawyer . There are some things, I don't understand, unless there are some bugs. You use to have some thoughts about your numbers. I don't have to agree on these thoughts (in fact it would be boring, if I always did) but I would like to understand them. I've looked at your viki and some things doesn't seem to be the way it stands there. I have no production numbers of annual production, yet, but the profit of one woolcoat and one reindeer parka is 16 each. The better parka is cheaper, so I guess these are the coats for the people to wear. The profit of one warm coat is 44. That's a lot. It needs a lot of material, so the annual production might be low. I don't know, yet.  But exporting winter coats seems very profitable. But what about fur coats? It's a loss of 20 to produce one.

I'll show you two pictures from my village. You can see, that I still have a lot of proteins in my stores. I will try to get rid of some. I haven't made much barter trade so far. Only sold, if I got the higher price. But I will now, at least for some time. The storage are too full of meat.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 24, 2018, 08:18:35 AM
Well, @Hawk, these girls might be blond but I wouldn't call them sweet. They are tough and strong viking descendants. One day giving birth to a child, next day doing their hard work as blacksmiths , miners or farmers as usual, without any cut in the production. Maybe the wild guys from the south heard of it and didn't dare to show up.

@Nilla - I think you meant @Turis.  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 24, 2018, 08:40:01 AM
@Nilla They're still sweet as honey to me. I just ignore the bees' stings.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 24, 2018, 09:19:12 AM
@Nilla They're still sweet as honey to me. I just ignore the bees' stings.

LOL! Reminds me of a show I saw once about badgers. This one badger found a bee hive. It wanted the honey and went after it. No matter how many times the bees stung it, that badger just didn't give up until it had the comb it wanted.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 24, 2018, 10:08:11 AM
@Nilla They're still sweet as honey to me. I just ignore the bees' stings.

LOL! Reminds me of a show I saw once about badgers. This one badger found a bee hive. It wanted the honey and went after it. No matter how many times the bees stung it, that badger just didn't give up until it had the comb it wanted.
Yes, the essence which attracts men to women, and, for me, is their blond hair and blue eyes. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 24, 2018, 03:09:15 PM
Something seems to be wrong with the coats. I want to go through recipes and trade values. With the turnips I had no special idea. Actually my vegetables cost 2 - 3. My food prices follow a rule related to perishableness. The more perishable the higher the trading range (profit) for merchants..

1 - 2 (100% profit) for very perishable food like milk and fresh meat
3 - 5 (66%) for perishable fruits with higher price
2 - 3 (50%) for medium perishable food like veges and cured food
3 - 4 (33%) for less or non perishable food like grain
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 24, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
Something seems to be wrong with the coats. I want to go through recipes and trade values

This probably isn't what you're talking about but it seems that there might be 2 different types of wool. One for wool coats and one for Nordic wool coats.
It seems that the tailor will sometimes make Nordic wool coats with sheeps wool and sometimes it won't.
How many wools does it take to make one Nordic wool coat. I had 9 wools in the tailor shop and the tailor kept saying no material available.

As with my past comments, I'm probably missing something.  LOL!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 25, 2018, 02:33:10 AM
Something seems to be wrong with the coats. I want to go through recipes and trade values

This probably isn't what you're talking about but it seems that there might be 2 different types of wool. One for wool coats and one for Nordic wool coats.
It seems that the tailor will sometimes make Nordic wool coats with sheeps wool and sometimes it won't.
How many wools does it take to make one Nordic wool coat. I had 9 wools in the tailor shop and the tailor kept saying no material available.

As with my past comments, I'm probably missing something.  LOL!
Does it only happen to you?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 25, 2018, 04:35:02 AM
It could probably happen to you if you ran The North for Banished 1.06 in an install of Banished 1.07.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 25, 2018, 07:44:27 AM
Not really since I was waiting for Tom to update it to 1.0.7.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 25, 2018, 09:43:53 AM
Not really since I was waiting for Tom to update it to 1.0.7.

He already has. The latest version is available on his website. release date - Dec. 25, 2017

http://www.banishedventures.com/north/
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 25, 2018, 10:35:34 AM
Did I say "I'm" or "I was"? ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 26, 2018, 10:01:09 AM
Sorry guys, for mixing you up. I guess, I tried to joke with you in some other thread @Turis so I continued here, just from routine.

Anyhow, @Turis, I should have understood earlier, that you were playing an old version of the North as you spoke of Nordic wool coats. In this North 6 there are no different kinds of woolcoats anymore, just "wool coats". They need as much wool as the earlier Nordic wool coats, but aren't warmer than "normal" wool coats.

I now have a few production numbers. I have big problems with my warehouse. They don't want to carry any wool into it, so the big trade profit of one Winter coat doesn't make it too profitable. The annual production has only been between 68 and 48. The production of reindeer coats is even worse, even if there are hides in the store. I find it OK, that the production at the fireplace is low, but I find you should use another "recipe" at the tailor shop @Tom Sawyer . I had 38 and 39 for whole years. I have seen numbers like this at the fireplace with uneducated hunters, too.

Steel tools are very profitable to produce. Of cause they should be. They are the end of a long chain. You need several, partly not very profitable steps before you get to the tools, many people are involved. The production was between 162 and 132. As I said a very high profit when each tool makes 30. For making iron, I had two whole years of production: 332 and 428. It's high (and a big difference). You need several bloomeries for each shop. (By the way; the smithy is wonderful, especially the red one. The stone texture is also fantastic)

Glass and glassware had a production of around 160 for one worker. (You can use more.) The trade profit of each is 10. A much lower profit than tools. Here are also several steps and many people involved, not quite as much as by steel tools, but it's a big difference. My impression now is that the profit of glass/glassware is "right" and steeltools a bit too high. It's just a feeling based on a few years production, so it might be wrong.

I like, how the trade has evolved in the North. I like, that it's no "best trading good". The fact, that merchants pay different, makes it more or less necessary to export a number of goods. If you have to sell your tools to the lower price, the profit is only 5 for each tool and it would probably be better to sell the iron ore unprocessed instead. My settlement isn't that big but I think I can say for sure; it's possible to support a settlement without farming. That's a good thing. Otherwise, the "harsh" climate would be more or less unplayable. You can farm on "harsh" but not without a lot of tedious micromanagement: You have to start the harvest manually. It's OK in a small settlement, but I'm glad, that I don't have to do it here. I've also stopped to send everyone out in the woods to pick berries and firewood. Now everyone works in his/her profession. Gatherers pick the berries. it's not quite as much as before, but I can afford to buy some fruit, so it's OK.

Pictures

I don't know, what I'm doing wrong. :-\  :P My barns are full. I really tried to get rid of meat by orders and barter trade, but the only result is that the amount of beans, cabbage and bread has increased and the amount of meat is the same.

I like the new industrial settlement. For a city builder, i guess it's too untidy. It's deliberate. I want it this way. If it had been possible, I would have put the houses more askew, not only in different directions. No cityplanners at work.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 26, 2018, 02:06:26 PM
Sorry guys, for mixing you up. I guess, I tried to joke with you in some other thread @Turis so I continued here, just from routine.

Anyhow, @Turis, I should have understood earlier, that you were playing an old version of the North as you spoke of Nordic wool coats. In this North 6 there are no different kinds of woolcoats anymore, just "wool coats". They need as much wool as the earlier Nordic wool coats, but aren't warmer than "normal" wool coats.

This time I believe it was me talking about the Nordic Wool Coats. LOL!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 26, 2018, 03:18:22 PM
She just wants to talk to me. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2018, 05:23:32 PM
Wow, what a food graph. Even in harsh climate. Is this boost since year 25 a result of your active trading or what was changing there?

Thank you for your thoughts to production numbers. I want to make a balancing update soon. With parkas it's difficult. I like to have it made as single pieces at the campfire instead of waiting for 4 hides to start crafting. But that influences also tailors and will always slow it down there too. Will think about it. With not storing wool in the warehouse I don't know yet. I see no mistake in the market function.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 27, 2018, 08:49:08 AM
Now @Turis, @Hawk and all others; you must guess/decide for yourself; if A. I'm trying to make a joke, B. have such a respect for you @Hawk, after I heard that you're a computer expert, that i don't dare to address you directly, C. have a crush on you@Turis, that I'm only addressing you or D. am too old and totally confused, making the same mistake twice. ;D

You're right @Tom Sawyer, it's active trading. First I tried to manage with only one small trading dock. The boost started, after I made another two and later also a large trading port. The climate isn't making it (much) more difficult, since I never farmed.

To reindeer parkas. Isn't it possible to have different recipes for the same product in different production sites? Even if you can't change  1 -> 1 to 4 -> 4 (or something like that) can't you set a higher speed at the tailor shop? Or does it also influence the other products of the tailor?

I have made some experiments with the warehouse. I still don't understand, why they don't like to store any wool. First I really tried to push it; used 5 traders (? wasn't it vendors before? can this be a problem?). No change. Then I thought, maybe it can only store a certain amount of textiles and all furs block the wool. So I transported all furs into the trading port. After that I actually saw a small amount of wool in the store, but just once for a short time. The traders seem more interested in carrying a couple of cow hides or a few furs, than a bunch of wool. ??? Is it alphabetic? 2 cow hides, 4 furs, 10 leather, 3 reindeer hides get there from all over the map, before 100 wool?

Anyway, I am about to solve the problem in the "old fashioned" way. I've built a tailor in the sheep area and have started to establish sheep in the warehouse area: Traditional Banished location of production! I also plan to build a standard market somewhere, to see how it works with wool.

I have one request/question/thought to you @Tom Sawyer : I have cows and need to process the cow hides to leather. The only place, that I've found, where this could be done is the farmers workplace. In the "old part" of the village, this is no problem. But since the traders from the warehouse seem to fancy cow hides, they land up in the "new part" of the village, so a part of this reorganizing, would mean, to process the cow hides here. But the workshop doesn't really fit the red houses and it doesn't look good as stand alone building. A small red, stand alone shed would be great.

I will continue to make notes about the production and also tell, how it works with the trade, as the settlement grows bigger. Maybe it can be helpful to you, if you want to rebalance the numbers.

First picture

I got really scared, as the fire started in the middle of my industrial area, but fortunately the empty space in-between was big enough, only this one house caught fire. :)

I've marked the not good looking workplace on both pictures.

Second picture

This was a nice surprise; the sand diggers found some gold. I'm not sure about the sand production. You can only use 3 miners to dig sand. If I use two glassworkers to produce glass, it's enough sand. But you can use up to 4 glassworkers. I don't think 3 miners can produce enough sand for that. It can work only if you produce glassware in-between. Otherwise you would need two sand pits for each glasswork. The opposit would be better.

You can see, that the educational rate has improved to 78%. The game runs good without new nomads. I don't really notice the "real time" effect in other ways than that there are a lot of children and students. It's not slow. I build new houses and workplaces continuously, without any boring delays.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 27, 2018, 09:13:40 AM
I knew it was a mistake, but, can I be blamed for daydreaming(taking advantage of it for my own self-gratification)? I wasn't serious anyway. Sometimes, I wish someone would kick my butt.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 27, 2018, 12:07:58 PM
Now @Turis, @Hawk and all others; you must guess/decide for yourself; if A. I'm trying to make a joke, B. have such a respect for you @Hawk, after I heard that you're a computer expert, that i don't dare to address you directly, C. have a crush on you@Turis, that I'm only addressing you or D. am too old and totally confused, making the same mistake twice. ;D

I'm opting for D.  ;D That would be my excuse anyway.  LOL!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 27, 2018, 12:14:19 PM
Now @Turis, @Hawk and all others; you must guess/decide for yourself; if A. I'm trying to make a joke, B. have such a respect for you @Hawk, after I heard that you're a computer expert, that i don't dare to address you directly, C. have a crush on you@Turis, that I'm only addressing you or D. am too old and totally confused, making the same mistake twice. ;D

I'm opting for D.  ;D That would be my excuse anyway.  LOL!
Don't say she's old!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 28, 2018, 04:54:31 AM
Maybe these answers from you guys (no names this time  ??? ) say more about you, than about me. ;)

I played more yesterday, but there's not much new. I use to make a lot of screenshots, when I play. I usually only show you a few of them. It may be funny things, nice things, things I have special thoughts about, bugs, questions and so on. One thing I like about playing and writing these blogs, is to go back and look at the screenshots, I made the day before. This morning it didn't take long. Yesterday I only made one screenshot. It's what I think a bug (or maybe some thought from @Tom Sawyer, that I don't understand.

So, I started the game now and made another picture. It's my latest part of the village. As I said, I made a vanilla market and also a second large trading port. I don't think, that I need 2+3 trading ports, I might demolish one or two of the small docks. We'll see if the many merchant are too annoying. Or maybe I will use the small ports just to buy ordered food and sell goods for coins in the big ones. There are some possibilities. One thing for sure; I will not build any more small docks. You can't buy much/store much to sell, before it's full. But this small dock is perfect at the beginning. And also later in a game, where you don't have to buy so much food as I need here: just to sell some surplus and buy seeds, animals, salt and sugar.

I cut in some graphs. Everything looks nice. I don't want more food, so I don't buy all I can get anymore. I will try to keep this level for some time.

To the possible bug: why doesn´t this merchant take silver as payment?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 28, 2018, 06:38:57 AM
Yep that's a bug. Merchants have to take silver. It's fixed for next update. Thank you for finding!

With recipes it's not that easy. If reindeer parkas have an output of 1 to work nicely at the campfire then they are also made in single pieces in a tailor shop. The work time is the same over all recipes in one building. So a tailor produces 3-4 coats or 1 parka in one step and making him faster would imbalance coats. Actually the clean way is to make coats only by tailors and parkas only by hunters at the fire or to make parkas with standard output.

With honey production you have mentioned it's a similar problem. The bee yard cannot produce honey using sugar or less honey without winter feeding. At least not by options in the same building. I can solve it only by removing sugar from the old style bee yard and making a modern bee house using sugar for higher (technically faster) production.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 29, 2018, 06:34:25 AM
I can see the problems to make good recipes, that work at the beginning in a small production unit, like the campfire or farmers workshop as well as later in a tailor shop or even worse, if you think further to a smaller industrial unit. Just for my own education; this is the way I've understood that it works;
-if you make a product from a raw material, all production units have to use the same recipe
-if you can produce more than one product in the same site, the "speed" is always the same

If this is the way it works, I guess the easiest way is to introduce one more kind of clothing made of reindeer. The way it is now, doesn't work well in a medium size settlement like mine. I need to/want to process the reindeer hides to clothing, but I find, that a production of 30-40 each year from one plant is too low. By the way; now with the better logistics, I have a production just above 100 winter coats in my tailor shops. That's OK, so just increase the "speed" of production in the tailor shop, isn't a good option. It would need a total change of recipes and trading values. As you say @Tom Sawyer ; not easy.

I made a few more screenshots yesterday. Here is a part of that "production" with some thoughts and explanations.

First picture

This is one of my favourite buildings. I haven't tried it yet in the North6. I have a question; does it need ale or does it produce ale? And if it produces ale, does it need barley like the workshop or something else? I have looked at your Viki but haven't found anything about it.

One thought with building this inn, was that I wanted the boarding house function. I ran into a minor fuel crisis and planned to modernize the old houses, in order to need less firewood. In the upgrade time, I could let the people live at the inn. I have solved the crisis, so I haven't start any upgrade. I also have the estethic problem with the workshops/red houses, so if I can manage the fuel, I will not rebuild the village.

The fuel crisis came, because I made a couple of smaller mistakes. Yes, crises are generally a result of some mistakes. This settlement is very prosperous and sustainable, so a crisis like this can be handled. First I increased the tool production a bit too fast. The stores of charcoal became smaller, so a couple of more coaler and a few choppers were built. Just because I like the look of @kid1293 ´s woodmill I decided to build my second. But not until I started to wonder, what was placed among the bricks on the brickpiles, I realized, that it made lumber instead of firewood! With 3 workers! Several years! :P :-[ No wonder, that the amount of firewood and logs went down very fast.

The problem is solved: A couple of blacksmiths closed, firewood production in the mill, another forester. I also started a coalmine to see if coal can be used to replace some firewood. It's better than in a vanilla game, but I will only use this possibility, if I have a lot of unemployed workers. That's not the case at the moment. So this mine is closed for now. Maybe it can be useful later.

Second picture

I don't really need a bank yet, but there are actually a few spare coins and precious metals to store here and I do like the look, so I built it.

This nationalistic settlement doesn't take any new nomads, but it's a friendly place, that at least offers the tired wanderers a bench to rest at, before they move along. I guess some food packages and spare clothings will be offered, too.

Third picture

I added @embx61 production set. This "alien building" doesn't look alien at all. The windmill fits very well in the Nordic surroundings. If I have understood the "rules" for modding, it uses the same repice as the workplace, but it works much faster and produces a lot. 
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 30, 2018, 05:55:09 AM
Yes, including a new coat would solve it @Nilla. But no idea how to name it without inventing an item just for technical reasons. Another solution would be a recipe to make 3 - 4 winter coats from 4 reindeer hides or to process hides into leather for modern use. A role playing explanation for slow work in current version would be that crafting parkas is actually a hunter skill and tailors do it rather occasionally without use of any tailoring tools. Anyway it needs a better solution for processing deer hides in modern age. :)

The tavern does not produce ale. It has to be made in a brewery or by farmers. Barkeepers roast meat and serve it together with ale. It has an improving effect on food production. The other option for a "drinking bout" is to run the tavern in a classic way. Barkeepers serve schnapps for happiness. I hope in future this will work with noticeable effect.

I did not test the EB production set yet but the windmill should work fine. If it can make flour from rye the adapting file works. And alien it's not. It's an original windmill from Copenhagen/Denmark and a must have add-on here. ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 30, 2018, 07:12:14 AM
The mad cows has invaded Scandinavia chasing vikings everywhere thinking they're Bulls. Aren't the cows crazy?
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 30, 2018, 09:48:34 AM
No, @Turis you must have been dreaming. The viking cows are gentle like lambs. Romours from the merchants, spread by the young boys in the settlement says, that the wild guys, (those who was afraid of the strong girls and didn't show up), have been talking about wild fighting bulls in their home countries. The boys tried to anger some of the Nordic bulls, but they couldn't understand the fun in fighting, so the boys were soon bored and went on with other, more successful mischief.


@Tom Sawyer , it might be a good solution to introduce some kind of leather processing site. It could take care of the rein deer hides and also the cow hides and make leather to use at the tailor shop for winter coats. We need an alternative to the workshops for the cow hides, too. I see the problem in introducing a second kind of rein deer coat. As you says, it would only be a technical solution of a "problem". It doesn't bring anything new to the game.

I don't know yet, if the EB windmill produces flour from rye. It has an option to chose rye, but I had a lot of wheat and very little rye so far. But I'm confident, that it will work. If you consider the size, the production is also reasonable. And you said it @Tom Sawyer ; unless you have a lot of streams for water mill(s), it's a "must" in a Nordic game. I also tried the bakery from this mod. It produces about the same as the small Nordic baking huts, so it had to go. It's nice, but I don't really think the "style" fits well in these surroundings. I just wanted to test and see, if there was any alternative products to bread. If I remember it right, if you use this mod in a vanilla game, there are some other options as well.

I've also built a salt works. The production isn't very high. Even with the maximum of 3 miners, it only produces a 200-300 salt each year. It's not bad and I think, that it's enough to make cheese in my 3 diary huts, but I would have liked, if it was possible to put more than 3 workers in it. If I want salt all (or at least a considerable part of) my meat and fish instead of smoking it, I would need to spam the mines.

If the windmill is a "must" and the salt works a "why not", rest of the buildings in the EB Production Set are a "no" to me. The bakery is OK, if you want some buildings in another style, but I really can't see any use of the leather works. There's simply not leather enough. I even have to buy some, to produce enough warm clothes for my population. In a Nordic game there's no leather left to only produce export goods. Maybe  in a very big settlement you could buy leather, sell the leather products and buy food for the profit, but normally; no. I'm not sure, but I think that @embx61 has separate versions of his buildings. In this case, I recommend only to load mill/bakery + salt mine in a Nordic game, instead of the whole Production Set. As it is now, the merchants offer useless pouches and saddles instead of goods I might need.

The tavern does not produce ale. It has to be made in a brewery or by farmers. Barkeepers roast meat and serve it together with ale. It has an improving effect on food production. The other option for a "drinking bout" is to run the tavern in a classic way. Barkeepers serve schnapps for happiness. I hope in future this will work with noticeable effect.

Thanks, I discovered this myself. I was a bit confused, because the menu of the tavern says "Roasted beef and Ale". Since it loaded beef and not roasted meat, I thought the tavern might brew the ale and the products was on the menu. Maybe you should change the menu to Beef/Mutton/Venison to be more consequent.

What do you mean with "improving effect on the food production". How does that work? To me it looks like it consumes ale and meat and produces roasted meat. Some of it go to the town, some stay in the inn and are consumed by the inhabitants one after the another, like ale in a brewery.

First picture

Again I only made one screenshot yesterday. It shows the salt work. It looks good among the Nordic buildings.

The population grows fast at the moment. I have started to delay the building of new houses; not a new a house for each girl who gets 16. I think the fast growth after some time, is also significant for a "real time aging mod". I don't know, if it's "worse" than in a "fast vanilla" speed, or if it's just an impression. Anyway it's manageable, at least so far.

Second picture

@Hawk , sorry ;) @Turis here's the proof; the Nordic cows are very peaceful. They can even grass together with the sheep. People like to take the shortcut across the pasture.

You can see the inventory. I buy bean, cabbage and bread (ordered) and most wheat, rye, fruit and sugar I can get without order.


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 30, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
They aren't "viking" cows. They're english mad cows who have never seen a bull in their lives. If you want, I'll sell you some spanish Bulls. They're quite aggressive. I'm sure they'll satisfy the mad cows so they'll leave your men alone.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Hawk on January 30, 2018, 10:13:08 AM
@Hawk , sorry ;) @Turis

LOL! LOL!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 30, 2018, 10:15:44 AM
They aren't "viking" cows.


no Mad Cow Kings ?


whats about the Cow level ?? ??
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 30, 2018, 10:22:09 AM
Hey, I'm trying to make a business here! Shoo! Shoo! Come on! Go away! ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on January 30, 2018, 11:22:47 AM
Nilla,are you having fun yet? trying to find buildings to fit and match with a unique settlement can be fun. my indian-mountian bannies have that problem too. even with more mods to choose from ,some of what i want to add doesm't fit well. we have to pick and choose. each modder has their own styles about them. some buildings work well with other mods,like EB's leather and KID's wild west. the plank lumber buildings don't work in the map i am on with the log and thatch buildings.it makes for a fun challenge.
       
     i can't offer you a mill that will do rye.my mills can be picky at times.KID's colonial mod mill is similar to EB's but i am not sure it will take the rye. it does use oats, and the set has a small bakery and jam shop.for rye i like TOM's tjurko water mill.you don't want me to build any though. i build the wrong 1. won't use barley and forces you to build a specific bakery for cornflour.LOL
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 31, 2018, 04:16:32 AM
These merchants are such gossiper, they have spread rumours, that our cows where crazy and never saw a bull in their lives!  :o A miracle; our herds grows from virgin births!  ;D They must know very little about animal breeding. So, everyone pay attention! Don't believe a word of what they say!

Now we got an offer to buy some foreign southern bulls. This has caused some discussions in the village. The young boys would love to have some aggressive bulls, to prove their courage on. Other people are afraid, that they can't walk across the pasture without fear anymore and don't want any new, probably mad bulls. Stela, the old wise herdswoman, who everyone listen to, when it comes to breeding and taking care of the animals said, that a couple of new bulls would be a good idea. She remembered the times, as the herd was small. Her parents has told, that the village once bought 3 cows and a bull from a travelling merchant and everyone of our big herds are the offspring of those animals. Fresh blood would do good. So unless the foreign bulls were too expensive, the merchant could bring a few. (These people are Västgötar, worse than Smålänningar when it comes to being stingy, @kid1293 knows what I mean)

Well, @brads3, combining dozens of mods isn't my way of playing. That's you, remember? ;) I like one style and if it's a larger mod, or a combination of a few fitting mods, that's all I need. I'm not the city builder-type, as you well know, even if I like beautiful buildings. I'm well aware, that others build much nicer than I do, but I like the look of the buildings fit to eachother, that's all. Here I add mods that " make sense".

What do I mean when I say, "make sense"?

It has to give something to the game, that I miss. These are the "aliens" I've used so far:

DS Wagon Vendor - the North has no small market, that could be built early, this is the nicest looking, most fitting small market.
EB Windmill - the one stream on this map is far away from the village and there's no other larger mill in the North. This mill is very nice and it do grind rye as good as wheat.
EB Salt Work- salt has to be imported if you play the North "pure". It's not necessary to use salt but is used for several products, that make sense.
Kid's Wind Saw Mill - this is "out of my concept", no special need for it. It would have worked as good with only small chopper, but I love this building. Like many of Tom's, it's made from a real model from my neighborhood.

I want to fill this map, so we will need a lot more houses. I would like some townhouses. The Bryggen houses from @Discrepancy are the one, that I find would fit the best. I don't know, if they work with the North, but I will try this mod next.

First picture

I'm a little concerned about the fast growth of the population. I have started to build less houses. My thoughts are explained with this picture. A girl who moves out, will get 3 children in a short time (at least as long as she has a husband). If she moves out early, (I'm sure Catritz did) she will be young enough to get more children, after the first "batch" has moved out and she will get another 3 babies. If every woman gets 6 children, the population will grow very fast. If takes a bit longer, like Mistina, she will be too old to get more than maybe one more child, after the oldest has moved out. When the children stays longer at home, there will also be no room for new baby siblings.

So my theory is; in a "real time aging" game staying a few years longer at home, brings a much lover growth. I will try to prove this theory.

Second picture

I had some trouble with my cow hides. They need to be made to leather to be used. The only place where this can be made is in a farmers workshop, that's designed to be attached to a "viking" log cabin. I don't build any of these anymore. They need to much fuel. And a workshop at a red house look bad. I need more workshops in the cattle area, so I made this test; attaching the workshop to a storage building. I find it looks good. And small old looking barns could be placed and are useful everywhere. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 31, 2018, 05:06:19 AM
Here we have selected a fine example of a spanish bull for you to choose for all of your needs.
(https://orig00.deviantart.net/20e2/f/2018/031/a/f/comedy_by_pooggie-dc1q1sw.jpg)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 31, 2018, 07:29:51 AM
After consulting the wise old lady, the village has decided that it doesn't need any Spanish bulls after all. Even if this one may come cheap, we must kindly reject your offer!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 31, 2018, 08:28:01 AM
Don't tell me I fail to make you laugh?
I work really hard on this joke. I even ridicule myself by manipulating my picture. Now I'll have to work better and harder.

(https://img00.deviantart.net/ea34/i/2018/030/f/0/profile_by_pooggie-dc1ndsv.jpg)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on January 31, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
I'll tell you a secret @Turis; I did laugh. But I don't mind, if you work harder. We viking descendants are difficult to impress! ;)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 31, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
haha i laugh a good one :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 31, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
Before I had a chance to make the post with the picture, a guy from the hosting website favorited it and downloaded it. ???
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on January 31, 2018, 01:02:01 PM
Before I had a chance to make the post with the picture, a guy from the hosting website favorited it and downloaded it. ???

maybe we will see it now on every web site and on youtube ? ^^
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on January 31, 2018, 01:43:02 PM
Oh, boy! ::)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 01, 2018, 05:08:54 AM
YES! @Turis the new YouTube star! :P ;D

Elkville grows with a terrifying speed. It's still manageable, but I don't know for how long. I don't remember anymore, how big I've built with a "real time mod" before. I can remember though, that I've had similar problems before as I played with @kid1293 Raw House mod. I remember that he was kind enough, to make the tiny rawhouses for a 3 person family to help me manage the growth. I have a question to you people, who usually use "real time aging mods". How big have you built your settlements and how did you manage the population growth?

If you plan to build in Northmen  in the North @Tom Sawyer, I do recommend, that you add some houses for small families, maybe townhouses to use late in the game. I have added the Townhouses from @Discrepancy. They are really nice and the production buildings all work well in the North. BUT........ They are for families of 5-7. I can certainly not need houses for larger families than 5 at this moment. I have built a few large houses over the small ground floor workshops and stores, but I will have to stick to the smaller.

I have thought about loading a mod with smaller houses (I even think I have one loaded already; Kid's Forest Outpost house is for 4 people, if I remember right) but I will give it a try with "normal" 5 person houses. Just to see how long it works.

I guess, the problem in this big settlement, long term will be fuel. I'm about to convert my smokers to salters, to save firewood. Occasionally I buy firewood or coal, to save logs. But I don't know how long we can afford to buy food and fuel. Sooner or later, I will have to reopen my coalmine and probably build more.

These pictures are an attempt to please @RedKetchup. ;) I know, far from the quality of @Paeng, (I miss him, too) but at least a try to make some impressions from the village life.

First picture

Here's the flooded empty clay pit. I guess it looks as good as possible. Better than the former "clay pit ruin".

You can also see the scary population graph.

Second picture

The beginning of my Bryggen part of  the town. I'm not sure about Norwegian but "brygga" means jetty in Swedish so this part needs a nice one. I will expand in this style also to the other side of the river, to make a small merchant town.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 01, 2018, 07:34:15 AM
"The hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy". Find and read it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on February 01, 2018, 07:52:38 AM
       i take it you mean when the computer doesn't kick us out or we run into some crazy problem.think most times players accomplish a goal or build certain buildings.then we move on to the next map. we dont run towns as far as we could often.not as much as we should i guess.very seldom do i try to cover the entire map.i don't think managing the population growth is the main reason though.

     in the beginning,it is easier to click on each house and build more as needed.when females are graduating school or turning 16 years old. when there is too many houses,i use a formula of 1 house per 2 adults plus boarding houses. those do count as houses,new players might not realize that. other players use a formula but "families" instead of adults.
      nomads do help towns grow.i like to keep the bannies working and the laborer count down. usually 5-10 laborers.as students graduate or nomads arrive,i put them to work.so it isn't just housing that decides things.i stop taking nomads when i can't build fast enough to get my laborer count back down. say that number is 100,and 30 adult nomads show up. i need to build 15 houses but also 30 work places.if more nomads arrive before i have built all that,then i don't accept them.
         the laborer count has to go up as the town grows.i am still tryinig to figure out what that number should be. should it be 10% or 25% of the total adult workers??how many laborers to each builder,and how many builders?? i try different things.don't have a magic formula for it yet though.
     i do use KID's rowhouses and NECORAs pine cabins. they work in production or mining towns or small forest villages.i don't think the small houses slow the growth much though.

       "TOWS" went over 150 years and 1700 bannies. took a lot of trading to keep them all fed.toward the end,i was building houses and fields constantly.once the population gets ahead of you it is difficult to get it back in control. i had a mod glitch a long time ago. built the town up and was expanding and growing smoothly. all of a sudden the bannies started to kick children out of their homes. i built more houses for them and the bannies would kick more out.took a couple years to figure out what was going on. dumped a mod and started over.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 01, 2018, 10:36:20 AM
Yep, the DS Townhouses are fully compatible with North 6 and look great at your shoreline. Almost Paeng like! ;D

I also find the upper story of the townhouses a bit too big or too high. One story or window-row lower would be nice and then with smaller families inside. But the problem of too fast growing populations should be solved in citizen.rsc I think. I have increased the post child term value to 1 - 4 years. That will help and can be adjusted if necessary. Residences limited to 2 children should be also available to control population growth. You could use the vanilla huts but they are probably not what you want to build in your town.

The claypit is just filled with water and fishes. I did not add any vegetation but when I was working at it, I added some plants from Tanys water mod for testing. Works fine with her water lilies and the other plants. So you can decorate your old pits a bit if you like it more natural: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=174
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Anjell on February 01, 2018, 09:47:37 PM
Your town is looking good. Love those Town homes in front of the River.


I have a question to you people, who usually use "real time aging mods". How big have you built your settlements and how did you manage the population growth?

I use the Immortal Mod from Black Liquid to create a large population. In the beginning it's very manageable with hunters, fishermen. orchards and farms. At this point in the game, (11K peeps) I am barely sustaining food production. My reserves are almost gone. I allowed too many nomads in the early stages and i built too many homes. I have over 2k homes and over 5k families.
Immortals reproduce like rabbits and they don't die unless there's a disease or something. In the last 5 yrs of this village I made the huge mistake of expanding 2 extra rows of homes near the bottom farms because I needed workers close to them. BIG MISTAKE !!! It went crazy baby booming fast... lol

I'll continue with some decorations, finishing up my parks, hedges, etc for now until the new NMT and the other new goodies are released. I'm pretty much done with this map.  ;D

Oh, and to answer your question from other post the game is very laggy but mostly when nomads visit. I just have to close up all background applications before i start the game and it's still manageable. I posted some pictures I took with my phone because I couldn't get the MicroSUX WinBLOWS screen shots to work.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 02, 2018, 03:54:54 AM
@brads3 . I am very sure, that smaller houses stop this extreme population growth in a large settlement. Say a girl moves out when she's 16. She gets children when she's 17, 19, 21. The eldest child moves out when she's 33. So she gets new babies with 34, 36 and 38. That's 6 children. In a 4 person house she gets children with 17 and 19, 34 and 36. That's 4 children. A big difference, when you see it in a couple of generations. Now I'm trying to slow this down. If she moves out with 20. She gets babies with 21, 23 and 25 and is too old for more babies after they've moved out.

I try to have 10-15% free laborers. Maybe a bit less at the beginning and more on big map/large settlement. That works fine for me. I don't use many builders. I have a few, who stay builders all the time, generally much less than building projects. I can increase the number temporarily, if I see that building sites are ready or I want something fast. But I am generally a bit careful. Builders have some kind of priority, when it comes to living as close to the workplace as possible, and this might mess things up.

"The hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy". Find and read it.

??? Explanation needed. I read this book (or at least the first one) way back and to be honest; not much stayed in my memory.   :-[

Almost Paeng like! ;D
Well, @Tom Sawyer "almost" is a word that can be stretch. In this case very long. ;) I don't find the townhouses big compared to a Banni. I think the size is quite realistic but sure, too big for one family. In life there would have been a number of families living in such a house.

@Anjell, I can only see the sense of using an immortality mod, if you want to build that big. My experience is, that with a population of 5000-6000, the Bannis start to behave even weirder as normal. The most annoying thing, is that they no longer change occupation. This means, that every youngster who moves out, keeps his occupation and may very well work on the other side of the map. Sooner or later, the production breaks down. If no one dies, there will at least be no other houses, than the ones you build, that's free for young people, who work far away. May I ask, do these 100 years old people get children?

First picture

I had some kind of weird bug. Now and then one or a few person get homeless, without any fires or something like that. They walk around for a while, then go to a market to grab some food and the homeless sign disappears, after they visited the market. It might have something to do with changing professions when the production limit is reached and for some reason be far away from home.

The two person shown on the picture (Rudolfo is homeless and Sheilani just was, together with two of her three children) are both "unemployed" because the fuel limit is reached. It was the same another time, as I looked; people working at sites, that were closed became temporarily homeless maybe together with some of their children. I have marked the homes of the person at the map. Sheilani works as a woodcutter far away in one of the forest settlements and Rudolfo is a coalminer on the other side of the river.

This is not a bad bug, it solves itself after some time, anyhow I wanted to tell

I forgot, that I had a crash some time ago. There was a tornado, bim, bim, two people died, then crash! I had no time to see, what happened and what was destroyed by the tornado, anyhow, something happened, that the game didn't like.

Second picture


Good idea @Tom Sawyer ; the water plants. I usually don't use much decorations and when I do, I can confess, that I somehow "over use" them. But now I even like the clay pit ruin! :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: RedKetchup on February 02, 2018, 03:57:29 AM
it is really a very nice pond you have there !!!
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 02, 2018, 04:02:38 AM
Almost as nice as your NMT! (Unless you build it in the mountains ;) )
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 02, 2018, 05:06:12 AM
Trying to joke around some more, but, the jokes that comes into my mind now crosses the line except asking you to post a portrait picture of yourself. No, I'm not asking for it yet. :P
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Anjell on February 02, 2018, 05:21:41 AM
May I ask, do these 100 years old people get children?

Yes, some bannies are thousands of years old. Numbers are really random for nomads and starting family adults. A couple could be 4987 yr old married to a 183 yr old for example. Children that are born after have a normal age progression. They continue to reproduce their entire lives. If a kid moves out, the couple will have another baby as long as there is space in the house. If the house limit is reached they won't have more children.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 02, 2018, 05:43:59 AM
Yeah, that's a really nice revegetation now! We need more sweet plants from @tanypredator. And I would say.. almost even better than Paeng could make it. ;D

The culprit of your tornado crash I have found. It was the mine when destroyed by storm. It's fixed for next update.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 02, 2018, 12:24:33 PM
@Turis, have I made you that confuse? This is a GAMING site not a DATING site! You may continue to flirt with me. But don't expect any success. I'm happily married for more than 30 years. :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 02, 2018, 02:05:23 PM
Okay, I'll leave you alone.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Discrepancy on February 02, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
I have added the Townhouses from @Discrepancy. They are really nice and the production buildings all work well in the North. BUT........ They are for families of 5-7. I can certainly not need houses for larger families than 5 at this moment. I have built a few large houses over the small ground floor workshops and stores, but I will have to stick to the smaller.
I also find the upper story of the townhouses a bit too big or too high. One story or window-row lower would be nice and then with smaller families inside.
I don't find the townhouses big compared to a Banni. I think the size is quite realistic but sure, too big for one family. In life there would have been a number of families living in such a house.

I had thought about making those large Bryggen Store Townhouses act as 1-3 family 'Boardinghouses' in the next update.
I have had a request to make some ground floor houses instead of just the stores/production buildings.
I have also had a play at making some other smaller Store townhouses.
The next update though will require them to use Lumber in construction.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 03, 2018, 04:14:33 AM
Nice to hear, that you have plans to develop this mod further, @Discrepancy.

I'm not so fond of the idea to make the large "over the shop house" to a boarding house. OK, it's a logical choice, if you concider the size and the reality, but unfortunately boarding houses don't work as normal apartments. If I'm using the Bryggen houses, I want to build a number of small shops with houses on top, but in my way of playing, I don't need more than one boarding house. A better option, would be a modular system (like NMT townhouses). If you don't want to go that way, I would leave them the way they are. In a "vanilla time" game it doesn't matter much. In a "real time" game you have to handle potential too large families. So far I've settled families, where the parents are in their 40s in these large houses. It's a little micromanagement but totally manageable. An alternative with smaller over the shop houses would be great.

Of cause, you should use the new possibilities for more than three building materials for these "advanced" houses. Lumber is OK, but also glass and/or brick (maybe instead of iron).

First picture

I have noticed a very strange thing, that I've never seen before.

I didn't know, that Bannis could skip school. I happened to find a 13 year old, who moved alone into a newly built house. I was a bit pussled, because I've never seen someone with 13 leaving school. In fact he hadn't. He was uneducated. I always had enough schools. I haven't taken any nomads for a long time. I looked around a bit in the houses and I found another uneducated. Of cause it's a blacksmith, a profession where it really hurt.  ::)

Have anyone else seen this?

I have schools on 4 locations, three of them with 2 classrooms. The single school, red marked on the map, has been full sometimes. But there's another school, not that far away, blue marked, that never was full. I haven't seen, that students are afraid of visiting schools far away before.

There can't be many of these "school skippers". The educational rate is still 100% but there are some. Explanations, please......

Second picture

As you see, it's not hard to support 1000 people on harsh without farming. I have chosen not to spam the river with more trading ports than necessary. At the moment I have 5 (and one small dock). To get a balanced diet all the time, more would be needed. I have a loooooot of meat, especially salted meat but you can see, at the moment I miss grain.

Third picture

I think, I understand how hard it is to balance the trade; prices and goods merchants bring. I've said it before. I like it, the way it is. It's an interesting combination of barter trade and more profitable trade with coins. But I have one big wish; larger trading ports. Different merchants pay different for the goods. It's a good strategy, to sell various of goods. It's much too easy to overfill the port. A merchant can bring 10 000 - 20 000 food. I often want to/need to buy all. I always have enough goods or/and coins to buy it but I can only buy a part, because the port is too full. I have to let the merchant wait and buy in portions.

I'll show you the content of my ports. I don't know what I should take away.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 03, 2018, 05:11:42 AM
Sometimes, families move to an empty house, specially when the parents split and leave behind one of their children.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 03, 2018, 07:32:46 AM
 Hmmm.....You might be at something @Turis. Although, I haven't had any splitting families. That happens mainly when you have more houses than families. That's not the case here. But I had this strange bug, when people get homeless. (It did happen a few times yesterday, too). Sometimes children get homeless, too. Maybe if a student gets homeless, he's kicked out of school.

Edit: ...... or maybe not. I just remember, that I made a few more screenshot of some homeless people. Among others one from these three former homeless people, two of them students. They have just moved back home and are still students.

If this homeless "thing" happens again, I will take a closer look at them and see. 
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on February 03, 2018, 07:47:23 AM
it is odd that you and i have a similar thing happen since we use different age mods. i am using a version of proper time.as far as i know,unless there is something hard-coded affecting it, distance to school doesn't matter.they should all graduate at the same age ,between 15 and 16. i have had 14 yr olds "graduate". by that i mean they become laborers. i will have to pay attention because i always assume they are educated.
    i don't think it has anything to do with distance though. i have some about the same distance,that are in school longer.one large school but so far has less than 20 students,can hold 50.though it isn't far from 1 side of the main village to the other,i have seen families swap younger children for students to move them closer.not complete families though. but even 2 houses side by side,1 might graduate early.
   not sure if we didn't notice it before. it is subtle ebough to be missed with larger populations. i usually figure they graduate at 15-16.i thinbk it is set to 5.5 years of schooling. there is times they seem to graduate closer to 15 and others 16. since i assumed they was educated,never gave it much thought.they don't all graduate in june like here.always figured they graduated and were helping the laborers. the last few years,trying to keep track of some things,i noticed a jump in laborers and when i built some houses,14 year olds moved in.

    the bannies are known to have minds of their own,so i always figure it is one of the odd wierd things.them wanting to quit school a yr or 2 early is minor. not sure why they do such things.i'll check to see if they are educated next time.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 03, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Maybe it's the lack of food or firewood that prompts a lonely student to leave school to start doing adult stuff and become an uneducated laborer.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 03, 2018, 09:44:58 AM
Well @brads3, not all graduate at 15-16. In vanilla game I have seen 23 year old students! Some are really hopelessly stupid and have to stay long in school. In fact it's not the reason. The old students live far away from school and the years "on the road" counts. That's why I said; I haven't seen, that students avoid far away schools. They choose the closest available and stay in that school and doesn't change schools, if they move or another school is built closer. If there are many available houses, they may move closer to their school. That's something I have seen, too. In this game with Norsemen a 14 year old, who live close to school, can be graduated. I guess it's the same in your game.

I don't know, if these shirkers ever was in school or just left after a few years. They certainly not left because of some lack. There's plenty of everything. The stores of food are again too full. Maybe we have to accept, that also in Banished land, there are a few hopless students, who never graduate.   :-\ :o
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 03, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Oops, sorry. I meant the supplies at the house.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on February 03, 2018, 01:29:22 PM
with the "propertime mod" my understanding is KID did away with the distance requirement.so it shouldn't act that way. that's what is odd,you and i have different age mods. yet see similar things happen.as for the students moving,i have seen families swap young children to neighbors for students,or vise versa.

TURIS,a market supplies the village and another market supplies the south.these 14yr olds who quit school lived within the market radius.they is just weird.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 03, 2018, 02:17:31 PM
There's no adults to resupply the house except the student so he leaves school. The children don't do it on their own except when the parents do it.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on February 03, 2018, 02:30:01 PM
i have good news and bad news. NILLA,we have no idea what is wrong with you.mine are educated.  :P

pic 's:centered on the market.school in lower right corner.all the houses are supplied by the market.except maybe the teepee above the school.it is on the line.2 14yr olds become educated worker. Elio from the native hut top. and Federik from the teepee just above the school.
note the 2 15 yr olds in the left huts. Terench graduates and moves to the west.Stewart continues to go to school for another year.

ignore Palmer in 2nd pic. he is a nomad that moved away from his people and stole a cabin by the forest.

last pic note Nickies son graduated at 15.

if it is distance,we are talking about 10 feet for a whole extra year of schooling. again ,mine are educated. no complaints.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Turis on February 03, 2018, 04:46:05 PM
From our point of view, they are all still children, but, in the game's pov, they're adults.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: kid1293 on February 03, 2018, 09:44:37 PM
No, @brads3 , about Proper Time -  I did not do away with distance requirement.
It still shows on time spent as student if you have a long way to school.
Most of the time they graduate, get married and get children, all in a smooth way.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 04, 2018, 04:42:13 AM
I still have no idea, what happened. I'm sure, it's no lack of of anything, that made these people quit/not enter school. The map is well covered with markets of different size; 18 in total on a not fully filled medium map. A few houses out in the woods are not in a market circle, but they have barns to get their food close, so they too are well covered with all they need. This can't be the reason. I still think, it's some kind of bug, possibly connected to the homeless people. I played a bit yesterday but saw nothing of this kind. We'll leave it for now. It's a minor bug. The education is still 100%, the population was some 900 as I discovered these uneducated. So there can't be more than 4 uneducated all in all.

I've decided to end this game now. I wanted to fill the map, but I must confess, the trading bores me. My main occupation is to manage the trade. And I only have 7 trading ports.  :o I have played games more than 5 time this big with 60 TP and the trade was less annoying.

What's the difference now?

Generally the trade is more interesting in the North, than with a vanilla trade, but that also means, that it's almost impossible to autotrade. In these big vanilla games, I used to autotrade most things I needed. Occasionally, when I wanted to make a brake from developing the town, I went through all the ports were a merchant stood; bought some more food (9999 is maximum in autotrad, you know) and maybe a few things, I've chosen not to autotrade. This way all these merchants left and also arrived next time, more or less at the same time. Here it doesn't even work to let them leave at the same time, because some have to stay much longer to empty the store several times before I can buy all I want.

Of cause, the trade would go easier, if I didn't fill the ports that much. But this would mean, that I could sell less goods to the high price, and will not have have enough goods/coins to buy all I need: I would have needed a lot more trading ports. I don't want 10 - 20 TP for 1000 people and I haven't planned the village this way. So no, not this time.

I haven't said much about production- and trade profit in this blog. I might have questioned the prize for the steel tools. It's high but not overpowered. I made a kind of different calculation:
20 miner, 18 blacksmiths, 9 charcoaler were involved in tool production. I estimate, that about 8 chopper and 12 foresters are needed as well: totally 67 person. I looked at a 5 year period, they produced 6100 tools. This gives about 18 tools yearly, worth 100 each; a value of 1800 each year. I looked at it now at the end of the game again and got about the same number: 86 people produced 7660 tools in 5 years.

We can compare this to other producers of export goods:
salter: 1000-2000 (depending on location, it's hard to get a good distribution of salt , it's carried around a lot. If we count in the less producing salters, it will be less for each worker)
smoker: 1500-2500
diary: 2500-3500
tailor (warm coats) 2500-4500 (big difference in production)
tailor (wool coats) ~1000
glassmaker (glassware) ~1200 ( a bit more if you only use one glassmaker)
trapper 2000-3600 (2 trapper in each)
herbalist 500-2000 (depending on temperatures)

One more thing I wanted to discuss; salter. You've increased the amount of salt needed (my initiative, I know). I don't know, maybe it's a bit too much. In such a settlement like this without farming, salting meat and fish is a main business. A good salter can produce 2000 meat each year (even if that high is rare), for this you need 250 salt. That's everything from one saltworks with 3 miners, that produces very well. I don't know, if this is reasonable.

If we compare salter and dryer: the salter makes more food from each meat but the dryer makes a higher trade value.

First picture

The Bryggen part has developed but isn't finished.

Second picture


100 years and 1000 inhabitants have passed. This game proves, that it's very well possible to build a larger Nordic settlement on harsh. It's a challenge but not all too hard. Well done @Tom Sawyer! :)

Third picture

I've cut together some graphs, if someone besides me is interested in such things. As you can see, this is a very prosperous settlement. I know very well, that I could afford to reduce the content in my ports a bit, trade a bit less, and not increase the amount of coins, but it will not be sustainable for very long,(without more ports) so I'll save that for some other game.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: brads3 on February 04, 2018, 07:44:10 AM
@kid1293  that is a surprise.so i either been lucky or the bannies have been very helpful all this time.my villages with schools i can understand but one would think my forester workers would have troubles since they would travel so far. i like the balance. by time they finish school they are old enough to start families.so far it has been normally about 16.
      i think NILLA does these riddles just to confuse me.

        it has been an interesting journey the last few years to watch this mod deveop.TOM has changed a lot and has constantly made new buildings.the game has progresses and there have been several improvements the last couple years.for TOM,the other modders,and even LUKE himself.the new flags and extended building requirements,the better gathering systems,better water,more and improved textures,TOM's workplace farmers and wild-quickhunters,new plants and forests,plus many more changes have made the game better each year.
      TOM and NILLA both have a lot of time invested. you both should be proud of the accomplishment. i hope some of the ideas are expanded so they work in other maps. like the random trader values. there are others. i have not had a chance to test yet. then i will be able to say more.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 04, 2018, 09:04:25 AM
Of cause! One of my favourite occupations is to make @brads3 confused! ;) ;D

This time you are right and wrong! Confusing enough?

This (and other mods) makes this game still interesting. (right)

I have no big part in that. (wrong)

The price of goods isn't random. They have two values; one high (the same as if you buy without order) and one 25-100 % lower depending on the goods. Different merchant have a different "policy" about their prices. (wrong)


Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 04, 2018, 03:12:21 PM
@Nilla I try to understand what exactly made auto purchasing almost impossible in your game or what needs to be changed. Actually it should be even better because of more flags to select what you need. Salt or glass as auto imports for example. That you cannot sell always only to the best price in auto mode is ok I think. It's the extra profit by active trading and would also work without when looking at your successful economy. With the capacity I like to stay with reasonable values compared to barns. Maybe the boats are a bit overloaded. Also, trading ports with bigger storehouses would be good.
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on February 05, 2018, 07:52:19 AM
You're right @Tom Sawyer , that this settlement could afford to sell more goods to the lower price. Even if it hurts a "true Västgöte" every time a bad deal is made. ;) That's not, what I meant, when I wrote, that it's almost impossible. The problem is, that very little "export goods" are sold. The main export is a surplus of various products, that are needed in the settlement. I know, how difficult it is in a vanilla game to auto trade firewood. You need a massive overproduction, otherwise, you will land in a lack of firewood from time to time. At least, that's my experience, mainly from full maps of different size, with and without mods.

Here I start the trade by giving away one or a few products, I have much too much of and just need to get rid of, no matter the price. At the end, it was mostly only salted meat but this has varied during the 100 years. If I want to buy more, after these products are gone, I look if the merchant pay a high price for something. I check the store of this product, to see, if I have enough to refill the port (unless it's glassware and woolcoats, my "for export only" goods). Often I know quite well without looking the store situation of the important goods, like steel tools. If there's not enough of such goods, I use coins. It wouldn't work to give away these things randomly. Sometimes I guess, it could, but to other times, my barns would be (even more) overfilled with meat but empty of tools, clothing and herbs.

And autopurchase of coins? I don't know. It could very well happen, that coins were used as payment. What sense does that make?

I will not say that it's totally impossible to autotrade in the North. But the production has to be planned for that from the start. What might have worked in this game could be a mixed way: Autopurchase for food with only coins and "get rid of goods" as payment at some ports and other ports used primary as export ports, to get the coins to fill the import ports. (and maybe for some emergency import). I guess a few more ports would have been needed but it could work. 

In this game I mostly buy food; grain, vegetables, fruit and from time to time a little fuel, some iron bloom, iron and leather. So all the different possible flags to order, don't help.

Yes, the boats can bring a lot. I guess, you may get more offered, than the small port could hold, even if it was empty. But at the moment I often buy all food they bring. Less food on each boat, would have meant more ports. But yes, probably more realistic. If the merchants who come to the big ports with daler brought more money, this "mixed system" I talked about earlier, would be easier; you would need less ports, to sell what you need, to be able to import, what you need at other ports. But on the other hand; if the boat is too small to bring a lot of goods, it's also too small to buy a lot. There has to be some kind of balance.

Now we must also realize, that this is an unusual game. I guess, not many Nordic games, is played without farming. I find it better to make the mod work good in a more "normal" settlement. If anyone choose to play on "harsh", it should be possible to build a large settlement, but we have to accept difficulties of different kind; micromanage farming, manual trading....... Not that bad! Or maybe some other time I (or someone else, cleverer than me) find a way to make this in a better way. What's the fun, if everything go easy, the first time you try.  :-\
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: oldgraywolf on March 04, 2018, 10:00:47 AM
Sorry to revive this, but Nilla, I was wondering if you would recommend this mod to a beginner like myself? I'm still getting used to game mechanics and learning how to survive the vanilla game, but after reading this blog I'm really interested in playing this version. Both the look and "feel" of this is very interesting to me.
Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.  :)
Great blog.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: Nilla on March 04, 2018, 11:32:07 AM
No problem @oldgraywolf, I'm happy that you like this blog. Thanks! :)

Yes, the North is very nice and definitely worth a try. It is different than a vanilla game but not necessarily harder. If you're a beginner, I wouldn't choose the harder options; like a "harsh" climate, where farming is very difficult or "survivor" start, where the people have absolutely nothing from the start. 

There are some production chains that makes the game a bit harder, as example; tool production has more steps. The trade is more complicated, with totally different prices of the goods and a possibility to use coins. In this version some professions has no "uneducated penalty", that's also unique. You also need to buy some things, like bricks before you can produce any bricks, that might be a bit confusing, but I assure you, no real problem.

If you start a game with a "mild" climate and one of the easier start conditions, lime "farmer", I'm quite sure, you will enjoy the game.

@Tom Sawyer has made some of these lovely buildings as stand alone mods, able to play in a vanilla game. That could be an alternative, if you don't want all the gameplay changes.

If you try this mod, don't hesitate to ask questions. @Tom Sawyer is a very nice person, he'll answer. I've tested this mod a lot and I will answer as good as I can, too.

One small advice, if you choose this mod; don't forget the "instant tools". Letting the laborers collect food, herbs and firewood, to hunt and fish in a small easy scale is very valuable at the beginning of a Nordic game.



Title: Re: Nilla-testing the North6
Post by: oldgraywolf on March 04, 2018, 12:02:19 PM
Thanks for the response. I'm currently trying to get a small list of mods to try with a new game. I'm really interested in the DS line, both look and function, but I'm thinking I'll try the North as well. After reading this blog it seems to play slightly slower, at least in the beginning,  which might help me by giving me time to get a feel for the game.
Thanks again for the help, this forum has been a great find for me, loaded with information and helpful people to talk to. I'm glad this game is still alive and I've got the chance to enjoy it after finding it so late. ;D