I want to learn how Happiness works in unmodded Banished. I have read conflicting information. I couldn't find anything in the modkit.
Quote from BL_ShockPuppet CC Dev (http://bl_shockpuppetcc%20dev) on Reddit from 1 year ago:
QuoteHappiness comes in a 4 flavours: spirit, safety, alcohol, goods.
A variety of each is best. Kralyerg made a happiness ring mod that will show the happiness radius of buildings, you can get it at blackliquidsoftware.com
Remember, mines and quarries will reduce happiness (detraction) so keep your houses away.
Nilla has a thread here (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1289.0)
Quote2. What makes them unhappy?
In a normal game ONLY the death of a family member.
3. Could they recover?
The ONLY THING that prevents them from staying unhappy the rest of their lives is a graveyard.
4. What about..... ale, churches, buildings with a happiness radius/unhappiness radius, food, herbs, clothing, tools..........
In a normal game. These things has NO influence on happiness.
There is information on some of the wikis like This one (https://banished-wiki.com/wiki/Citizens#Happiness) and This one (https://banishedinfo.com/wiki/Happiness).
Do we know anything else? Are there are any other good sources? I spent my first bit of time in the midkit and what files I could look at and I did not find information. I am a newbie looking through those and didn't spend too much time on it.
My intention is to make a town to do some semi-scientific testing. I made a Town to test Happiness (https://i.imgur.com/n7xxk2c.png). My intention is to run the town for 100-200 years with minimal changes. Then add a possible happiness factor and run it again. I have a save point at year 20. I use an outside program to crank the speed to x150.
For example: First I will run the town for ~200 years and check the 100 years of happiness graph. I will reload the town at year 15 and make a graveyard and repeat. Reload the town and make a Church, repeat. Reload Market Repeat. Wells, Mines etc. etc. Combinations of them etc.
Any suggestions or changes to the experiment? Do we have any other information on Happiness?
I do not have it in me to do such a test :) but I can tell I am curious.
What if, as Nilla writes - churches has no impact - is true?
Is it the same with trader?
Those questions lies warm with every modder. If we can skip those 'idle'
points the village/town will be much more productive. People will not be
miles away when harvest begins...
I have no clue to the outcome but I will follow. :)
Fortunately, the level of effort needed to do this test isn't too significant. I can setup the town, set the speed to x150 and walk away. I check in every 15-30 minutes. It takes about 2-3 hours to run ~200 years. Already got the baseline done.
I want to make sure I do it correctly. I am very open to suggestions/changes/ideas.
Again,
@smurphys7; a very interesting experiment. I'm very interested to see what's coming out of this. Maybe the first comparison could be what happens with/ whitout graveyards, long term. Here we can actually see, the difference in happines in a normal game. But does it have any real impact of the game? I would also find it interesting, if you made a run with your other "happines factors" as well in a game with and without graveyards. There might be a small difference.
It could also be interesting to see, if there any difference in efficiency with/without these idling spots. I don't think
@kid1293, that people idle more, if there are idling places. If there's no such place, they just go out in the woods. But maybe they will go further, if there are real idling spots.
It could also be interesting to test those buildings that have a "unhappiness" radius; mines quarries.
I guess you have read my blogs about my testing. It's absolutely not scientifically made, just playing and looking at the individuals and graphs. These instruments are quite "blunt". I hope you might see a bit more in a long time game.
Oh. I didn't think of considering the efficiency affects of Happiness. That is an excellent idea.
Right now I think I won't try to track that with these first tests. It is easier for me to be at the food limit and not do anything. Then after 100-200 years I can take pictures of the graphs. Since I am at the food limit the production numbers don't reflect changes in Happiness. Maybe it will reflect in how fast it goes back up to the food limit? But that might be harder to see on the graphs.
Once we see the actual affects of happiness we can figure out a way to test the efficiency is the easiest way possible. Paying attention stinks :P
Baseline testing is done. Baseline Population. (https://i.imgur.com/f6jnpGZ.png) Baseline Citizens[url=http://[url=https://i.imgur.com/CVZolGw.png]Baseline Food.] [url=https://i.imgur.com/CVZolGw.png]Baseline Food. (https://i.imgur.com/f6jnpGZ.png). You can see where I set the limit to 35,000 Food. Maybe this will show us how fast it rebounds and we can see some affects of Happiness on efficiency, maybe not. Later experiments can get the numbers for efficiency.
Had an outbreak of Scarlett Fever in the middle. Some people died. That's why the graph gets flat in the middle. I don't think this should affect the testing. We can still see the ratios of population and happiness.
I have reloaded the save at Year 15. I placed like 5 to 10 wells near houses. Running round #2. I am off to bake some bread and make chicken soup while the game plays itself.
For whatever it's worth, there's a couple mods over at BlackLiquid that might be of interest.
Happiness Radius (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/34-happiness-radius/)
Unhappiness Radius (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/35-unhappiness-radius/)
Both by
@kralyerg
Here are Four Graphs: Sure there are differences but can anyone tell a happiness difference? Potential options are Base (No Factors), Wells, Markets, Trading Posts, Mines, Quarries, Physicians, Chapels. I placed several of whichever one smack in the middle near my houses AND had it running the entire 100 years.
(https://i.imgur.com/d5dzXI3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ayOSvd6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/TBOtqb6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/SJ4UCNv.png)
Sure, one has more clear sine wave population and one had a couple boons and busts but no big differences. Here's Cemeteries:
(https://i.imgur.com/XYLfJdq.png)
Cemeteries obviously increased Happiness. Let me know if anyone can pin down any of the four above. I think I posted the one before as Base. Don't cheat :P I think the first four graphs are all the same and running the simulation more times on any of them would produce no discernible change in happiness. Let me know if you think any of those have altered happiness.
Of cause the graph look different. But since the happiness gets down so much when familymembers dies, I think it's hard to say anything about influence of something else. So, even if there is a small influence, it's hard to prove. The only thing I can guess, is how many deaths there was or better; how many parents died, when the children still lived at home. That's the big influence.
Can you use the mods I mentioned above and then check the happiness and unhappiness of the Bannies inside and outside of the radius?
Quote from: Hawk on January 04, 2018, 03:31:59 AM
Can you use the mods I mentioned above and then check the happiness and unhappiness of the Bannies inside and outside of the radius?
I'm pretty sure, that this will not bring anything. These mods only makes, that you can see the radius. And I'm also pretty sure, that you will not see any difference in happines inside and outside. If there is any difference at all (I rather think not but I'm open to proves, that I'm wrong), it's very small and not possible to see in the personal menus. I guess the radius shows, that people who live/are in the circle, go to that spot to idle. But I have never seen, that this idling has any effect on happiness at all. Only the opposite; unhappy people will go there more often to idle, but they will not be happier after they've done it.
OK! I understand what you're saying. It was just a thought. :)
The mods to show the happiness and unhappiness radius only show when placing the building. Once the building is place it doesn't show. Here's my quarry example (https://i.imgur.com/whFUBcp.png). I can only run the Mine and the Quarry one 100 years at a time because it fills up all the stockpiles. I guess if I would know trading posts have no affect I could add one and auto purchase anything. If anyone likes, I am happy to upload each save file and the base save file at year 15 - pre-experiment.
To me, it looks like all all the experiments but the Cemetery one have the same range. The peak of Happiness seems to be about 85ish and the nadir about 45ish. When population starts going down, Happiness goes down. When the population begins to stabilize then rise, Happiness goes up.
I edited the photos and put the population graphs on the citizens graph. The Base and the Mine Graph looked pretty similar. Here they are:
(https://i.imgur.com/PRurrUS.png)(https://i.imgur.com/HpPM1kw.png)
The Mines graph valleys out a little lower, but the population spiked up and down a bit more. Also, the mines kill people. Do I want to run the Base and the Mines one again until I get a smooth sine wave?
Here are the Wells experiment and the Quarry:
(https://i.imgur.com/sMNxsQq.png)(https://i.imgur.com/kjOfy8h.png)
The Quarry spikes down a tiny bit more than the Wells graph. But is this just an chance? Is it due to kills? The Quarries and the Wells were smack in the middle of town. If there is a Happiness effect from either the affect is negligible.
Contrast any of these graphs with the Cemetery Graph in a previous which was outrageously obvious.
If anyone suggests I run one of these again I'd be happy to do so. It only takes about 5 minutes of effort and 2 hours of letting my Banished citizens fly around. I'd be happy to provide save games or more pictures.
I don't think food has an impact on happiness. Luke made it little food/varied food
reflect in health. I do not think he added happiness also.
Someone said being without job made people unhappy. True?
That is maybe the reason for idling points. Unemployed don't lose happiness.
Just ideas.
My current plan is to do these all once and then do them a second time with Factor + Cemetery. The Cemetery makes a nice straightish line and we should more easily be able to see if the line is lower or higher or whatever.
Mine, Quarry, Well, Trading Post, Market, Chapel, Physician, and... anything else?
Quote from: smurphys7 on January 04, 2018, 07:20:11 AM
The mods to show the happiness and unhappiness radius only show when placing the building. Once the building is place it doesn't show.
Oh yea! That's right. I forgot about that. :-[ It's been quite some time since I used either of those mods.
I've always built many wells, I was afraid of a fire. Later I turned off disasters, but I still build a well wherever I can, not just near the houses. Every area where people walk is near a well. I have just opened older saved games and in all of them happiness is still around 100.
I opened a very old game from the time I did not manage well and where happiness was about 50, built some wells and the situation dramatically improved in a few years. Perhaps the well is the miraculous thing ...?
Quote from: smurphys7 on January 04, 2018, 08:41:11 AM
Mine, Quarry, Well, Trading Post, Market, Chapel, Physician, and... anything else?
Tavern?
Quote from: Hawk on January 04, 2018, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: smurphys7 on January 04, 2018, 07:20:11 AM
The mods to show the happiness and unhappiness radius only show when placing the building. Once the building is place it doesn't show.
Oh yea! That's right. I forgot about that. :-[ It's been quite some time since I used either of those mods.
Been a min since I used them, too, but think it depends on the coding of the particular building. Some do some don't. Which, I think, is why I stopped using them. Guessing vanilla buildings are being used which, if I recall, don't.
Quote from: JM on January 04, 2018, 09:26:55 AM
I've always built many wells, I was afraid of a fire. Later I turned off disasters, but I still build a well wherever I can, not just near the houses. Every area where people walk is near a well. I have just opened older saved games and in all of them happiness is still around 100.
I opened a very old game from the time I did not manage well and where happiness was about 50, built some wells and the situation dramatically improved in a few years. Perhaps the well is the miraculous thing ...?
I was going to say that I know I've gotten boosts from churches, but I tend to build churches and cemeteries together so it may just be the cemetery. But I've definitely topped it off with wells. Might not be enough to carry happiness on their own, but I've certainly seen them cap it off.
Sounds like he's going to be looking at cumulative effects, so will be interesting to see what he finds.
Interesting test. I honestly had no idea graveyards carried most of the load. Been in a habit of building them early for so long haven't really noticed.
My initial test showed no effect for Wells. The Well graph looks virtually identical to placing and working 3 quarries smack in the middle of town. I had placed about 5 to 10 wells as close to groups of homes as I could. I will be doing Well + Cemetery and everything else + Cemetery to see if that makes things more clear.
Thanks for reminding me on the Tavern. That one should certainly be on the list. Doing that one now. I might skip doing the initial Market alone and Trading Post alone and go straight to Cemetery + Whatever tests. The Chapel Test showed no affect to me.
Saw that. I'm curious about cumulative effects. Because I've definitely seen a difference adding wells but that's always been in conjunction with other things. Want to say the same about chapels but that might be an assumption...I tend to build those together with cemeteries, but can't really say the chapel actually does anything.
But I've had lots of situations (practically every game) where I'll kick 4.5 stars over to 5 with a judiciously placed well or two. But can't say it isn't something else either. Lot of variables with that average rating. Like being an average, for one. Or wells + taverns + churches together on top of graveyards. Or something else entirely, like cumulative effect of cemeteries long term. But can't say that's it, either, because I generally have at least one up before anyone dies.
Banished lol
In my games wherever people go, they always go around a well. This may matter, not on the total number of wells, but on the fact that they are everywhere.
Usually, I'm building cemeteries somewhere in the woods, like in the village I live in. There are few bannies going there. The church is the last thing, I only build it when I have nothing else to do. I do not build Taverns at all.
I believe in a well. :)
QuoteHappiness comes in a 4 flavours: spirit, safety, alcohol, goods.
@smurphys7 - This quote from first post is maybe the key. Just maybe.
Think of it. Luke provided four sorts of food and health goes up only if you have all four.
Maybe happiness have the same dependencies? You need all four?
You are best to test right now :) I know you are knee-deep in this but it's an idea.
edit - maybe the overlapping radii are where you can get 100%
I edited this post :)
(https://i.imgur.com/HxeuMpG.png)
The Above picture is Taverns only and lots of alcohol. The large drop in happiness coincided with the precipitous drop in population. Alcohol had no affect.
(https://i.imgur.com/OjAXQ0W.png)
The above picture is Taverns, Wells, Trading Post, and Market. I also tried to max health but didn't do a good job. No affect with all of those together. Here's a picture of the town. No affect with the combination of functional Taverns, Wells, Trading Post, and Market.
(https://i.imgur.com/YzhfTrs.png)
This graph is a continuation of the previous one. I added Cemeteries immediately after the picture above of the Combo town of Tavern, Well, Trading Post and Market. The far left is the Cemetery making the last few people happy. At some point I added 3 Churches. I don't remember where. There is no affect. At some point I removed all their Hide Coats. That's pretty obvious. Then I gave them all warm coats. No affect. I did a better job of providing perfect health.
(https://i.imgur.com/LIHNtrh.png)
Some of you might have followed my blogs, some not. But I did a test of happiness, health and clothing quite a while ago. If anyone is interested, you can look here. It's quite long but I looked at several things. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1021.0
It was a totally different approach. I looked at an individual basic.
The map I'm currently playing has the happiness at 100% and I have no wells built anywhere.
I do have 4 churches and graveyards; no taverns.
Health is at 4 1/2 hearts.
There's currently 200 citizens: 141 adults, 26 students, 33 children.
It's at year 47. This was an Adam & Eve start, CC Verdant Plains, Medium terrain size, Mild climate, Disasters off.
I added information to my previous posts. It seems like as Nilla said, only Cemeteries have any affect on Happiness. Some people have said they have been at "Full Happiness".
Does that mean your Happiness was even higher than these Cemetery graphs?
(https://i.imgur.com/XYLfJdq.png)
I think "full happiness" means 5 stars. I have never had green graph at 100%. A little higher than this one, yes I think so, but not very much. I can guess that your game is altering between 4½ and 5 stars, if you look at that menu.
I also guess, that the reason that it sometimes drop a bit, is that you're not building any new houses. Children whose parents die, don't always regain their happiness totally, not even with graveyards. When the population is high, there are many grown up children still "at home" as their parents die of old age.
Quote from: Nilla on January 05, 2018, 04:20:59 AM
I think "full happiness" means 5 stars.
Yes! That's what I meant.
Here's a screenshot of the graph from that game, currently at 49 years.
(http://hawks-web.com/ForumShots/Banished/Graph.jpg)
Kept an eye on this in the map I've been playing. Appears to be the case. Which is good to know, but now I'm going to have to watch for this shift I've seen when building other things. Like I said, it could have been something else, probably a shift in the average as Nilla mentions, but that's a heck of a coincidence to have so consistently. Lol.
It's also really boring. We need more "needs" not fewer. Next we'll find out the second teir clothing doesn't do anything, or something. I've long said there are two things I'm not a fan of about this game. Now there are three, it seems.
Oh well, I'll probably still build everything past the starting crunch anyway, just because it's there.
Quote from: Maldrick on January 05, 2018, 08:59:10 AM
It's also really boring. We need more "needs" not fewer. Next we'll find out the second teir clothing doesn't do anything, or something. I've long said there are two things I'm not a fan of about this game. Now there are three, it seems.
Agree. And I´m sorry to say; clothing or not, doesn´t make a big difference! :-\
I´ll qoute myself from that blog I wrote about earlier:
QuoteI made some other very interesting observations during two winters. I looked at three fishers; one with excellent clothing (warm coat), one with fair clothing (wool or hide coat) and one with ragged clothes. The one with excellent clothing never went home to get warm. The fair clothing went home 1 or 2 times each winter. The one without clothes went home 3 times each winter.
Conclusions; In a normal settlement, where people live close to their working places, they can do very well without clothes. There is a small productivity loss during the winter (they start to go home at temperatures of about +3 C). There is about the same productivity loss between wool coats and no coats, as between warm coats and wool coats. It might look different, if the winter is colder or milder, the two winters I looked seemed to be quite normal.
Yep, it's still a tiny boost in efficiency even if very small. Still preferable than zero reason to make them. lol
Really hate seeing this game get dumbed down.
To happiness I also can say something. Month ago I wanted to mod this part of the game to make it more relevant and I made some tests. Not long term playing like here, rather technically to see what happens with unhappy people if they have a church or drink alcohol and so on. I found the same. No effect of alcohol, taverns, churches or any other happiness building except of cemeteries. So I gave up to deal with it and changed some things. Made ale to be a foodstuff, gave churches the function of attracting nomads and removed useless parts of the UI. In the code there are these different kinds of happiness aspects like savety, entertainment and so on. Buildings even create happiness layers in game as you can see if using debug options in modkit but the game seems to not do something with it. Probably it was not finished or not working properly and partly disabled after tests. The concept I like much and it's a pity that it doesn't really work. But even reduced to the function of cemeteries I find it an interesting aspect of the game, even though a bit macabre but that's Banished.^^
Just a little picture from my present game. I test the North 6 and play with Norseman (real time aging). With a real time aging mod, the effect of deaths is much bigger; if someone gets unhappy for the rest of his life, it's a very long time; 4 time as long as in a "normal" game. I seldom build graveyards in a normal game but always in a real time.
A couple of years ago, the wife of Darvis died, giving birth to a child. I have enough cemeteries, so Darvis isn't unhappy. The son Arthurson however is. As I've said; children who lose a parent stay unhappy, graveyards or not. Maybe, if he moves out young, he will recover happines. I'll keep an eye on him and tell you.
I also show the happiness graph. I play the survivor start. That's the explanation for the drop in happines at the beginning. The people have no clothes and it took a couple of years until everyone had a home. This too, makes people unhappy. I guess that each small drop in happiness later is from children, who lost a parent. I haven't looked for unhappy individuals, and I will not bother to search, but if I by chance find someone, I will keep an eye on them.
Since I've seen that you follow this thread
@Tom Sawyer a completely off topic question to you: It looks like you've reduced the possible age difference in marrages. There are some 16 years old girls, who don't want this 33 year old widower. Why change the 20 years from the vanilla game? I find it quite OK. How high is the age difference in Norseman?
Thanks for more interesting information, everyone. More evidence, contrary or supporting, is always great. I am glad I can also add some more data to help us figure out how things work when we don't have access to the full game code.
I think the general question of "What affects Happiness" is pretty much answered. As Nilla said long ago, Death makes people unhappy and Cemeteries can oppose that. Nothing else matters. I didn't try to determine exactly how much Happiness is lost or gained under whatever circumstances. It sounds like Nilla had some good data on that topic.
I am considering this mostly done. I didn't plan on doing any further experiments on this topic. I may do some experiments figuring out the efficiency ramifications of things like Happiness and others. However, many require some effort to do the experiment.
I'm going to finish up a CC guide, actually play Banished, and plot and scheme first :)
@Nilla Vanilla people marry at age of 10 - 30, Norseman 16 - 32. I don't remember why I made it this way. Maybe I felt sorry for the boys if they could get an old widow and 32 seemed ok to me.^^ I can change it to 36.
Do you mean a 20 year gap between spouses or do you mean they only marry between the ages of 10 and 30?
They do marry at every age. We all know that old people who lost a partner remarry another old fellow. It´s the difference in age. But since I´m no modder, I don´t know the code.
So, on the map I'm playing, I was fairly close to start when this discussion started so I turned off the chapel I had built early, along with a cemetery, and the only happiness building I had for about 20 years was a cemetery. Had solid 5 stars from the start.
After about 100 pop and a few years happiness dropped to 4.5 stars. I built a couple more chapels to accommodate the pop and turned them on. Happiness went back up to 5 stars. Turned them off and it dropped back to 4.5. Repeated this 3 times and it was the same. Sometimes it takes a couple seasons for it to go back up but sometimes immediate. The drop off was always immediate.
Quote from: Maldrick on January 05, 2018, 09:04:56 PM
So, on the map I'm playing, I was fairly close to start when this discussion started so I turned off the chapel I had built early, along with a cemetery, and the only happiness building I had for about 20 years was a cemetery. Had solid 5 stars from the start.
After about 100 pop and a few years happiness dropped to 4.5 stars. I built a couple more chapels to accommodate the pop and turned them on. Happiness went back up to 5 stars. Turned them off and it dropped back to 4.5. Repeated this 3 times and it was the same. Sometimes it takes a couple seasons for it to go back up but sometimes immediate. The drop off was always immediate.
Interesting. Can you show the graph from the townhall.
Caught me at a stable point so I just ran it and toggled chapels on and off every 3 months for 5 or 6 years. Had them on before and didn't lose half a star in the average this time, but the bumps correspond to the chapels being on and off. Had a couple of strings of multiple deaths towards the end, so assuming that's what the two extra dips are from. Still didn't drop any stars, though.
Phew.. really hard to interpret something into this graph. It's almost completely flat, alternating between 95 and 96%, probably along the border to 5 stars. But losing a half star actually means drops of about 10% and that would be relevant. This graph is rather evidence for no effect. Maybe it needs any special test to check if there is really such a tiny effect of a church. Just for interest. :)
I take it as having an effect. Since I sat and watched it bump up and down as I toggled them on and off. It was flat in between the changes taking effect each time except during those clusters of deaths which, if you look closely, is clear on the graph. Those are plateaus, not waves. Where you see it stagger is because small chapels are being used and there is often some lag time with one or two as the clerics are getting back to them. But once there and it settled in it was flat until I made the next change. I was watching on the 1 year graph as I did this and it was clearly an on-off change each cycle. Usually about a month for it to shift, it seemed, but the drop-offs were faster.
Don't know why I lost a half star the first time and didn't when I ran this. Health maybe? At this point the town is further along and I've got food groups better covered and I've expanded a bit and infrastructure is better. But it was the same in that case when I first noticed this...I was playing and didn't think to look at the graph because I was seeing it on star average. If I knew what the difference was I would replicate it.
In either case, it's definitely minimal. But to say there's no effect wouldn't be accurate. Don't think it can be said that only cemeteries affect happiness.
Sitting down to play and had the same save I did the other one handy, so I ran a different one.
On this one I did it by year:
Year 1 - Only Cemetery -- Pretty much same as before except this time it fluxed between 4.5 and 5 stars. No idea why, except it seemed to coincide with births and deaths. I should say, I have no idea why it didn't flux before in the earlier run, because I was getting 4.5 stars with just a cemetery when I first noticed this but didn't then.
Year 2 - Added Wells -- No change in happiness level but it seemed to stabilize whatever was fluxing before. There were no more dips down to 4.5 but on the 1 Year graph it did peak up above the flat line once before immediately returning. Doesn't show on this graph. Was otherwise a completely flat line.
Year 3 - Added Chapels -- Same effect as before with it capping off happiness. Insofar as it can be capped off, that is. Curious as to why it never reaches a full 100% like others on the graph. Health, too.
Year 4 - Added Brewers -- Didn't see any change except for a couple of dips down, which is interesting. Wouldn't look too closely at this one beyond that, though, because most of them weren't productive as I was short on what I was brewing with and happiness was already so close to cap. Needs a closer look with a better test.
Year 5 - Turned off Chapels and Brewers. Destroyed Wells. -- Drop off is clear and it flattens back out at the Cemetery-only level.
So it seems that Cemeteries are required for solid happiness, but can it can be stabilized / capped with other buildings, consistent with what I and others have seen in play. It would appear that Chapels are the best for that, with Wells having minimal effect. Brewers are still in question. It also appears that the combo of Chapels with Wells gives a higher boost than just Chapels when compared to the earlier graph.
It's also notable that the slight rippling flux at the beginning was between 4.5 and 5 stars. The improvement from Churches and Wells is much higher than that so, while still minimal and not necessarily needed, it's significantly greater than just raising happiness from 4.5 to 5 stars. It's just not represented on the star rating. If you, as a player, don't worry about that difference this won't mean much to you. If you do, it's worth it to build Chapels and Wells. Going by the Clothing wave, which fluxes between 99 and 100%, it looks to be a 2 or 3% difference. Which, given that all of this is an average, could translate to a significant difference on a bannie-by-bannie basis.
Clearly, it can't be concluded that only cemeteries give happiness.
yeah the ale thing isnt working at all and is very badly setup by the developper.
in my book, the ale function should have been setup exactly like the herbalist/herb function ( + 1/2 heart or + 1/2 happiness for ale)
presently totally useless out of selling money value
Interesting. Small but significant effect. I have tried similar things but didn't see this, so I'm a bit confused. Maybe I tested each of these "happiness maker" separate, and you only see any effect if you combine them. It's been a while, so I don't remember exactly. I have one question. I don't know, if it matters; do everyone live in the happines circle of the church or are there also churchmembers living outside?
I guess the reason for the switch between 4½ and 5 stars the first time is due to the "blunt instrument" stars. Say 5 stars means a happines of 97-100% and 4½ 93-97% (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, just the principle). If you have 96,9% happiness it will be 4,5 stars, if it rises to 97,0 it will be 5.
(tried to post this before but it didn´t work, I´ll try now again.)
Thank you for your researching
@Maldrick. I also made a test today to proof your find and to have absolute evidence about this issue.^^ I wanted to know if there is really any calculation in game and any noticeable effect on happiness by a church. I want to share it also if that is irrelevant for the game because of the very small effect.
My setup was a town created with debug options of about 200 people and provided with basic services: market, herbalist, schools, cemetery and various workplaces to not let them idle the whole time. That means a population with full graphs and no dropping happiness because of death which only makes it more complicated. This setting I let run for some years and followed the graphs. Happiness was at 95% all the time with a few steps up or down by 1%. It made a difference between 4.5 and 5 stars but this is pseudo-accuracy and not useful to look at.
The first step down was after 3 years due to a death of a mother and her sad child. They can become unhappy even with a cemetery. This drop recovered after a while and more of these fluctuations happened from time to time. I'm pretty sure they are such cases of death.
Then at a point with recognizable points in happiness graph (for orientation) I placed a chapel in the middle of the town and waited for any effect. I got a 1% increasing after a short time (picture 1). Question was, if it's a fluctuation or a real church effect. It only could be proofed by replication. I loaded the save game I made before building the chapel and let it run without this building.. no effect (picture 2).
Then I made a double test to proof it finally. 3. run again with chapel: Church effect (picture 3). 4. Run again without chapel: No effect (picture 4). I made even more runs and its totally clear. The chapel has indeed a very small effect on average happiness of about +1% in this setup. This effect is totally negligible and not worth to build a chapel (except as a decoration) but technically this function is included. So you are right. :)
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest1s.png) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest1.png)(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest2s.png) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest2.png)(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest3s.png) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest3.png)(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest4s.png) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/churchtest4.png)
@Nilla To answer your question, I don't really know. Not using Happiness Radius on this one. I would assume it's somewhere in the area of 75%. This start was heavy on forestry with the chapels close to the main town areas, but one of those (and the side the chapels for that side of town are on) is butted up next to one of the forest clusters and they are the small Forest Outpost foresters, so they could be in the radius. Would say the same for at least one on the other side of town. But, again, not really sure. 60-80% would be a good guess.
Yeah, I'm thinking the shift in stars comes from Cemetery getting it right to the line or just beyond. It's just weird because I had solid 5 stars with just a cemetery for about 20 years or more, then I noticed it drop to 4.5. Wasn't watching the graph, though. Only thing I can think of making the difference is the Cemetery is in one corner of town and I was expanding away from it. Could it be that Cemetery happiness is a combo of things? Like you don't get the massive unhappiness from not having one when someone dies if you do, but there's another level of happiness that comes from accessibility? Or it could have been from something else. My food diversity was getting stretched at the time I noticed it and turned on the chapels. Is the only other thing I can think of. Does health affect happiness? I've tried to keep both up consistently for so long I've never noticed. Or forgotten if I did.
@Tom Sawyer Yep, that's pretty much what I saw, too, with the first test. If you still have your save, you might try it again with Chapels and Wells, together. Noticed a lot bigger increase with the combo. Up to capped health level.
And, you're right....How important this is will vary from player to player. It's minimal, but not insignificant necessarily, depending on your personal preference. Don't know that I have the patience to actually test it, right now at least, but I'd be interested to see how that 2-3% difference in the average translates to individual bannies.
I have acquired more data.
I loaded my previous simulation town with the Cemetery. This was the resulting Citizens graph (https://i.imgur.com/XYLfJdq.png). Download the file here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DwKAMILwfU1KLTuBjcdIYW8__WXYfCp1/view). I built a Trading Post. I traded excess Leather for stone. I built 4 Chapels. There were periods of time where the Chapels were all on with 4 Clerics. There were periods of time where the Chapels were all off with 0 Clerics. The only other thing I did was turn off the Builders and Traders. Here is the town layout with Chapels. (https://i.imgur.com/QMZe8TP.png) I have recorded the entire simulation.
Can you identify when the Chapels were off and when the Chapels were on?
(https://i.imgur.com/12Nygju.png)
Are there any flaws for with loading that town, building chapels like I did, and turning them either on or off while correspondingly turning the Clerics on and off?
I loaded up my town with Cemetery + Chapel + Well + Tavern w/500 Alcohol + Physician + Health + Warm Coats + Steel tools. I hadn't run it long enough before. At all points I was at the clothing limit.
(https://i.imgur.com/fOn0JWQ.png)
It took quite some time for the Chapels + Everything to come into full affect. The blip in the middle was when a disease hit and a few people died. I built a physician at that point. At the end is where I turned on and off the chapels. When I turned them on and off is clear.
My previous graphs of JUST the Chapels and turning them on and off is unclear. I don't think one can tell where the Chapels were turned on and off. (https://i.imgur.com/12Nygju.png) But, Chapels + Everything else did have a noticeable affect.
So Chapels + Something else does affect happiness. As others have stated, it does not appear to be significant.
I just want to tell, that I kept a little bit track on the happiness of some individuals in my present game. I looked at the recovery of happiness by some young people. It's in my blog, the last two pictures. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2125.msg43753#msg43753
Summery
If there's a graveyard young people lose 1-3 stars, if they lose a parent, but recover as they move out from home. If there's no graveyard (or like in my game, they are full) they lose all but ½ stars and don't recover any happiness.
Yep, this reaction on death of family members I also noticed. Without cemetery they are defined to be depressive, almost not working anymore and no chance to recover or to counter with happiness buildings. The only solution is their own death, not nice. People really should be able to recover after a year of mourning or so.
I made more tests with happiness and tried to increase this effect we found in the graphs. It's difficult because we have only a few values and no insight into sources how the game calculates. But I could get this in my save game from last post after altering the citizens.rsc. Default happiness is set down from 95 to 50% and the impact of buildings with different happiness aspects scales up to 100. These steps are noticeable in individuell stars of citizens and now relevant in game. I will try to balance this and to use it in some way. But it's hard to reproduce these effects. I have test games where it works and in others the happiness calculation seems to not work at all. No idea why.
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/happinesstest.png)
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 09, 2018, 09:25:36 AM
............. almost not working anymore ........
Have you really seen this? As I looked at this (a long time ago), they did idle more than happy people, but not that terribly much.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 09, 2018, 09:25:36 AM
.................. I will try to balance this and to use it in some way. But it's hard to reproduce these effects. I have test games where it works and in others the happiness calculation seems to not work at all. No idea why.
That would be interesting. Maybe also, if you like to look at a larger effect (=more idling than today), if they are unhappy.
Maybe there's some "symbiotic" effect by these happiness maker. You need several to get effect or the opposite; if you already have happinessmaker A, happinessmaker B doesn't change anything.
Let us know your findings!
Very interesting. And consistent with what we were seeing. Including sometimes having no apparent effects at all.
Sorry to revive this thread. But I have had it spinning for some time now.
Do you people remember Anno-series? And Caesar game?
People needed to have the circles overlapping to be fully functional.
Like in picture.
Only the white area was covered. To get full happiness I think Luke
was intending to actually use the radius in each happiness building.
Else there is no other explanation for using a radius.
We have all seen cemetery effects on unhappiness after a death.
Sometimes not. Maybe outside the radius.
Maybe the other sorts of happiness were not fully implemented.
Or are they?
Have you tested the 'safety' happiness when there is a disaster?
Have you tested 'goods' when people are starving/naked?
Have you tested 'entertainment' when... don't know... unemployed? :)
It looks too much something I have seen in other games. I do not think
it is just a coincidence.
Sorry for disturbing the peace and quiet.
Yes
@kid1293 that's the way it works here too. In debug options you can show these overlapping areas of all five aspects. They are fully implemented and stacking. In my tests I noticed an effect only if at least 3 aspects are overlapping and it reaches up to 100% happiness with 4 or 5 stacks. Buildings with the same kind of happiness are not stacking of course. There is not any necessary order or something like that. Also, every detracting object removes one of these areas. So with 5 mines they are fully removed. That's all working fine. The problem is the default happiness of 95% and the not noticeable increase (except of staring at the happiness graph with a magnifying glass). But I'm sure it can be solved by re-scaling and balancing. :)
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/happiness-radius-thumb.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/happiness-radius.jpg)
so what kind of effect does changing the Citizen.rsc template file give?
this section:
float _maxHappiness = 10.0;
int _minFoodForHappiness = 4;
int _maxFoodForHappiness = 12;
float _happinessUpdateInMonths = 3.0;
int _workForHappiness = 10;
float _unhappyLevel = 0.6;
float _depressedLevel = 0.25;
int _idleRange = 25;
Can we make them more unhappy?
that way the building happiness code should be more visible to the players?
To get the graph in this post from Jan. 9 I changed maxHappiness to 1. It was setting the default down to 50% but the depression effect by death events were not working properly anymore. I'm currently testing 1.25 for a better result where bannies start with 3 stars and get up to 5 with all buildings. This is noticeable in citizen UI and the death event also works. What needs to be tested is the effect on work efficiency / idling time.
Thanks
@Tom Sawyer , that was what I suspected.
So the 'missing' effects are actually not finished game stubs?
Luke didn't make anything of them? Like soil degradation, I mean.
Just to add...When I was new to the game and learning I read somewhere that changing jobs affects happiness. Never noticed that to be the case but never particularly looked either.
Modding base happiness to make the effects more significant is certainly interesting. You guys might be on to something really cool with this.
@Tom Sawyer, How can i get circles like this in the game?
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2018, 05:58:35 PM
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/happiness-radius-thumb.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/happiness-radius.jpg)
@Antiligent , it is only available when playing through the modkit through the debug tool (the option is not available in the normal game and the code seems to be hidden from us):
(https://i.imgur.com/parMUaC.jpg)
@Discrepancy Sadly, because i would to have a circle guides for placing circle roads
Kralyerg made a Happiness Radius mod and an Unhappiness Radius mod. They aren't the same as overlays but they do work without the mod kit. Anyone who is interested can find them in his kave:
http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/articles.html/gettingstarted/kave-master-list-r52/
It would be interesting to see happiness become relevant in the game. On the other hand... How does it work with those circles? Do they have to live within the church circle to get church happiness? Understandable for wells, but it sounds a bit crazy for churches. So long as there are enough churches to cover population, that should be enough to keep them happy.
Perhaps Luke abandoned the happiness system because it was going to make the game too complicated.
@elemental As far as I figured it out by making happiness more visible is that the church has a kind of double effect, just as Luke wrote in help text. One is given to people who live in the circle and the other to attended people. Both are only active with a working priest. All other aspects are working by this overlapping circle concept. The hospital needs a worker as well as the market and the tavern only provides happiness while alcohol is stored. These requirements can be modded. To show happiness circles (also of decreasing objects) will be important when the effect is relevant. So these mods by Kralyerg make sense then and probably I will also show them.
Yesterday I made some tests again and could somehow quantify the consequences of unhappiness. I let woodcutters work in different states and workers with 3 stars made about 700 - 800 firewood while a worker with full happiness made about 1000. A depressed worker was idling more often and made about 500 - 700 firewood but this was hard to test because of this irregular behavior and rotating workers. If I'm not wrong and it was not only an effect of something else, then to decrease default happiness will indeed hit the efficiency of bannies and to care about it will be important. To play with it even gave me a feeling of a new survival aspect. We are so used to always see 4.5 - 5 stars.^^