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Rud - Testing the new Nordic Landscape

Started by Nilla, July 16, 2016, 09:57:31 AM

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Turis

It's even better when you don't have a barn. The hunter keeps killing reindeer, leaving the meat and fur on the ground.

Nilla

#16
Quote from: Turis on July 19, 2016, 10:57:36 PM
It's even better when you don't have a barn. The hunter keeps killing reindeer, leaving the meat and fur on the ground.

If they have no barn at all they do. It's a very good strategy for the first year or so; if a herd arrives, send the hunters, fake demolish the barn. One hunter could kill 4-5 deer this way. But this is no good long term strategy. You will notice; if you hunt one herd too hard, there will be very few animals left the next time this herd arrives. As in life; you have to hunt with care.

Quote from: irrelevant on July 19, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
Wow, hunters are great! I don't mean the herder's cabin, I mean the small opportunity hunters you can just plop down next to a herd. If you place them carefully, and there is a barn nearby, you can almost always bag two reindeer before the herd spooks away. I think the key there is to place the marker off to the side, so it is not adjacent to any of the reindeer. If you put it too close, the herd will freak out and relocate right away.

Also, you don't need to get deer sprites inside the circle. Your hunter will move to the icon, and if any reindeer are grazing nearby (within a couple of squares of the circle) he will bag one.

I had the impression too, that the deer will run away as soon as the hunter arrives, but according to @Tom Sawyer, he hasn't made such a behaviour. I suppose it's just coincidence, I really think it doesn't matter how you place the circle.

But the herdsmen in the cabin aren't bad either; two of them will slaughter 8-11 reindeer each year. As far as I see, they work very sustainable, never killing too many animals and you don't have to bother about them. I saw a big differens between 1 and 2 but the 3. (and 4.) herdsman in the cabin didn't make much difference, as I looked into it.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 19, 2016, 02:04:04 PM

So what about log as your main export? That was my intention but maybe it's to weak. In theory a good forester can produce 100 log = 800 trade value or now we can say 8 daler. With 4 guys 32 in the radius. Not much per area but profitable per worker.

Logs main export? No, it never was. I sold some at the beginning, but I could much more easily spare salmon and venison. I would have exported more, if it wasn't possible to trade salmon and venison for coins.

Now, later in the game I have chosen to "refine" the logs to increased the value. I export steel tools. I'm not sure that this is the right decision. Look at the right side of my first picture (the forester is right just outside the picture). It doesn't work very well to locate the blacksmiths to the marketplaces and let the vendors carry the rawmaterial there. I never see coal and iron there. (I put a lot of vendors at one market to see if it works better than, but I forgot to look). Anyhow I built this small metal working village around a mainbarn for iron, coal and steel. It produces about 120 steel tools for export every year, an income of 3640. But for this, you need about 10 people (something like; 2 foresters, 3 miners, 1 woodcutter 2 charcoalburner and 2 blacksmiths). If I counted right, the "basic" is 180 logs and 60 iron, a value of 2160 if I sell them. It's less, but I only need 5 people. This is what I like so much with your balancing. There are not one "right" thing to do (exporting firewood/ale in the vanilla game). What's right changes during the game, depending on how many people there are, how much raw material.........

Now I use some of the firewood to make charcoal (1 charcoalburner produces more than a coalminer) but soon there will not be enough logs, so then I must decide if I import logs to continue with the carcoalburner or use coalminers. I guess coalminer will be the best, but again, I'm not sure.

But of cause, this thoughts have really no sense, as long as you can build 1 more fishinghut. Even if it's not good located, it produces more than 2000 salmon each year with 4 workers. That's more worth than all the steeltools.

Second picture

"Come on guys, they have left us some tasty cherries there again"
"Yes, and when we've eaten them all, we can have the bark from the younger trees as the dessert"

irrelevant

Quote from: Nilla on July 20, 2016, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on July 19, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
I think the key there is to place the marker off to the side, so it is not adjacent to any of the reindeer. If you put it too close, the herd will freak out and relocate right away.
I had the impression too, that the deer will run away as soon as the hunter arrives, but according to @Tom Sawyer, he hasn't made such a behaviour. I suppose it's just coincidence, I really think it doesn't matter how you place the circle.
I think this behavior is baked into the deer AI. Regular deer will do it too; if you build a structure too close to where a herd is grazing, the herd will move to another location. At least this is what I believe I have seen, many times.

Nilla

Quote from: irrelevant on July 20, 2016, 05:42:39 AM
I think this behavior is baked into the deer AI. Regular deer will do it too; if you build a structure too close to where a herd is grazing, the herd will move to another location. At least this is what I believe I have seen, many times.

You might be right, anyhow this small hunter is very valuable at the beginning.

Tom Sawyer

I've made some tests and there is definitely a reaction of the herd. Not directly on placing the hunting marker but on killing a deer or while a hunter is incoming but I think at this moment the kill is fxed. It seems as if the decrease of the herd is an event to move on. And probably the presence of buildings has an effect too, in general.

As always, nice to see your numbers @Nilla And oops, the market can't store iron and coal (coalfuel).

Would you say you need a small special "market" for industries to manage your logistics? To carry raw materials from the surrounding area next to your blacksmith cluster by vendors without the huge and full with food packet marketplace?

Now I have new trade values, fixed mine and market and some gimmicks.^^ Do you wish an update?


irrelevant

I was thinking last night it would be nice to have a smaller market that one could build in lieu of the huge vanilla market.

Tom Sawyer

There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.

Nilla

#22
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 20, 2016, 01:12:43 PM
There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.

There are some of those warehouses, too. The nice and huge stores from @RedKetchup in NMT, (you can build houses on top of them) @slink made some more simple but efficient early, as the modkid was new. There are also other specialized barns and stockpiles. I have tried some. They are convenient, increases the productivity; makes it easier. I'm not sure I want that in this mod. It doesn't work bad if you build everything close with a main barn (and of cause also have enough another barns in food production areas)

But I agree with @irrelevant, it would be nice with a smaller market, or rather a village store, for everything, like a real old Swedish "lanthandel". I "Googeld" a bit and they were allowed from 1822 and were common from 1850. (about the same time as the small country houses were painted red) These big marketplaces doesn't really fit the Nordic theme. Of cause there were markets, but only in the towns (in fact it more or less defined a town, it was allowed to trade there). A marketplace with 10 red cottages and woods or farmland around around it, never existed. Markets (big or small) were only allowed at a few days each year in villages.

I have one more request for an upgrade. I played a little bit earlier tonight and bought some cattle. I didn't do that earlier because I didn't want a third textile to mess up the tailor production. But finally I wanted to test the cattle. They do need much space (I don't mind, it's a cold climate) but my pasture only contains 6 cows and it's quite large, not maximum but maybe 15*15 or something like that. Have you tested if a pasture of 20*20 can hold 10 cows, so it's possible to split a herd? Even if it can, it would be nice to be able to build a little bit larger pastures for the cows.

I've also thought a little bit about the specialized trading ports. I know we have discussed this before and I buy your argument, that you need less trading ports if the merchants arrive often, it's a good thing, but still; I'm a bit disturbed by all the merchants arriving to my 2 ports. (1 port would have been enough, but I wasn't sure I could "buy" enough coins). I don't trade very much. I buy some wheat, bricks and rooftiles and sell some clothing and tools (at present also a little stone, just to get rid of it). With specialized ports the merchants could arrive much more seldom (you will be sure he brings what you want). But on the other hand I would have needed more trading ports.

No screenshot, I forgot to make any but there´s really nothing new to show.

Tom Sawyer

Oh yes, a village shop is an excellent idea. Before supermarkets were built on each meadow, there was in every german village a "Dorfladen", also called "Tante Emma Laden".^^ I found a translation to mom-and-pop store (AE) or corner shop (BE).

Something like that would be great instead of the marketplace. It would be specialiced in food, firewood, clothes etc.. In addition this warehouse for the manufactoring sector with iron, coal, log and textiles. Imagine your tailor is located in your town or at your starting location or near the trading post and you expand your area with many sheep pastures away from this location to go for nordic coat production. The workers carry the wool into the next barn and the tailor must run into the countryside to get his materials. Not good. A market will not help because it's made for other things and full of food. A specialized vendor placed next to the Tailors can provide the material and the tailors can fetch it next door. You are right, there are special stores in NMT but not with this specialization.

Glad you test livestock. I made some tests to see the density in the pastures and to check the productivity. A maximum pasture in your version takes exactly 10 cows. So you can split but you are right. It needs a square pasture and thats not really good. I can increase the density to maybe 12. So a maller or other sized pasture can splitted too. Or I increase the size of the pasture as you said.

I had different types of pastures on my list. A large cow pasture, a sheep-run without fences and a smaller chicken coop. But we can't define the type of livestock. So you could fill the large cow pasture with a mass of chickens or use the open sheep run without building costs for the cattle. Probably you would use the sheep-run for each kind of livestock.

Another problem is, livestock doesn't need workers, not really. A cow pasture with 20x20 produces up to 1500 food + leather in your version with only one worker, not to talk about the milky cow. Very strong but still OK if the trade value is reduced to 1. But we need this pasture size to limit the productivity per worker. Livestock breeding in banished is an easy going food machine.

Your thoughts to trading posts. That's exactly why I favor it. To build your own trade port for the merchants you need. No spam of food merchants if you only want to sell your tools and so on or no more seed and livestock merchants if you have all of it or if you don't want to make farming. Mr. Kid made some small trading posts. I've played with it and it's nice. We just need a couple of other types for exports etc..

irrelevant

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 20, 2016, 01:12:43 PM
There are some small markets. In the Small Town Mod for example. Or the Mini (for food only). But I've never seen an industrial warehouse or how to say... for raw materials to support toolmakers and tailors.
@RedKetchup has created several flavors of specialized markets for his NMT mods. They are very nice. Some are specific to support various manufacturers.

tomnobles


Nilla

#26
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 21, 2016, 05:37:33 AM

Something like that would be great instead of the marketplace. It would be specialiced in food, firewood, clothes etc.. In addition this warehouse for the manufactoring sector with iron, coal, log and textiles. Imagine your tailor is located in your town or at your starting location or near the trading post and you expand your area with many sheep pastures away from this location to go for nordic coat production. The workers carry the wool into the next barn and the tailor must run into the countryside to get his materials. Not good. A market will not help because it's made for other things and full of food. A specialized vendor placed next to the Tailors can provide the material and the tailors can fetch it next door. You are right, there are special stores in NMT but not with this specialization.

I never do such a thing, I mean locating a lot of sheep pastures far away from the tailor.  ;) I always plan at least one tailor in sheep areas. But if you want to make these special warehouses, do it. It makes the planning easier, but you don't get "something for nothing" (Oh, I can also quote modern songs, normally my quotes comes from the 1960s or 1970s I wonder if @irrelevant knows this one) ;) . As long as you need vendors and they are not only specialized barns, I find it OK. You have to decide; What is best: to use one more worker, to carry the wool to the right place and have one (or more) high productive tailors or is it better to build another tailor and accept a lover productivity.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 21, 2016, 05:37:33 AM
Glad you test livestock. I made some tests to see the density in the pastures and to check the productivity. A maximum pasture in your version takes exactly 10 cows. So you can split but you are right. It needs a square pasture and that's not really good. I can increase the density to maybe 12. So a maller or other sized pasture can splitted too. Or I increase the size of the pasture as you said.

I had different types of pastures on my list. A large cow pasture, a sheep-run without fences and a smaller chicken coop. But we can't define the type of livestock. So you could fill the large cow pasture with a mass of chickens or use the open sheep run without building costs for the cattle. Probably you would use the sheep-run for each kind of livestock.

Another problem is, livestock doesn't need workers, not really. A cow pasture with 20x20 produces up to 1500 food + leather in your version with only one worker, not to talk about the milky cow. Very strong but still OK if the trade value is reduced to 1. But we need this pasture size to limit the productivity per worker. Livestock breeding in banished is an easy going food machine.

I have a somehow "kätzerishe Idee" as you Germans say; What if you take away the cows? Maybe people held a cow or two to get some milk but there were certainly no big cow herds in north Sweden 100 or 200 years ago. I'm sure they couldn't be fed during the winter. If you then reduce the productivity of eggs a bit, I think the pastures are quite OK. Maybe you could reduce the production of mutton a bit more , but it's not all too overpowered anymore. By the way; why did you increase the density of the sheep?

To trade prizes of food: I think it would be interesting (and harder to build a growing prosperous settlement in a harsh climate) if you never could trade food and get more, if you understand what I mean (sell 1000 venison and get 3000 wheat). I would like the opposite. If you want food, you can't produce or only produce with difficulties, it should cost you more than you give.
That means

Fish 1
Meat 1 (or 2 I don't really know, maybe 1 is too hard)
Vegetables 2
Fruit 2
Grain 2 (or maybe even 3 if you want to trouble us a lot)
Exotic products; choose any prize you want >2

This will also make a great difference in difficulties between the chosen climates. At harsh, where  farming gives very much less (I don't know how much less but I guess, it will be very hard to be selfsufficient on fruit and vegetables and grain is totally impossible). You will have to buy a lot of expensive food or accept a not very healthy population. At fair you can farm, probably even enough to be selfsufficient on fruit and vegetables but you will have to struggle and you will have to buy expensive grain to keep your population´s full health. At mild I'm sure you can grow all kind of food and the import prices are not important. That means this mod could be interesting for more or less all kind of players.

Edit
(I, ve been told about my German misspelling, sorry all Germans, but I will not change it, it became quite funny this way)

Tom Sawyer

Let's keep the cattle. Probably, it's not possible to remove it. And in southern Sweden (mild), there are surely cows. I could paint the cows as Galloways. They should tolerate the climate.^^ Basically you don't need cows, thats right. People will not buy it in a Nordic game, because they can make warm clothes without them. So all we should do is to set the productivity of the cattle to a right relation.

I don't know. I had the impression, vanilla sheep would not look like a real flock of sheep. It's just a visual thing. Realistic would be 1 cow to 5 sheep but thats not really important for banished. It should look right. Do you have the impression it looks too crowded in the sheep pasture?

Food values are at the moment:

wheat: 1 (Let's see how it works with lower fish and meat prices on harsh.)
corn: 2 (from warm regions)
potato, cabbage and beans: 1
maybe pumpkin and squash 2 (or 1, I'm not sure)
mushroom: 2 (rare)
pepper: 3 (exotic)
apple, pear, cherry, plum and berries: 2
peaches: 3 (exotic)
walnut: 2
pecan and chestnut: 3 (exotic)
fish: 1
mutton: 1
beef 1 (or 2 if the cattle will be extremely nerfed. It should not be a good export.)
venison 2 (because limited and a reindeer herder should be competitive to a sheep herder)

It's difficult. For a good balance we would need higher prices with a factor of 10 or so. To make smaller steps.

Nilla

OK, I will try it with these prizes. But I still think that you should not be able to buy food for food and double the amount (venison - wheat as example) But we will see how it works. Maybe it's harder as I think with a harsh climate.

irrelevant

#29
Harsh is very hard, but once I finally got my first TP up in year 12 and started trading salmon and venison for wheat, trout, cherries, and veggies, food inventory really took off.

Why do I want to buy coins? I know I saw something about that but can't find it now. Is it just to relieve pressure on storage? Or as a hedge against possible future resource shortages?