World of Banished

Conversations => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paeng on October 27, 2016, 10:45:06 AM

Title: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 27, 2016, 10:45:06 AM
Sorry, I don't get the trading with Dalers and Pennings... I built a General Trader (one from Kid's RowHouse Mod) - so a trader comes and offers me daler and penning, so I buy some (which at 100 a shot is pretty nasty for a very young village   ;D ) All the traders that follow have nothing nut daler and pennings... Hmmm? How or from whom do I buy products with my expensive dalers? When I put them back in the trade port, I get a warning that I'm low on money, so obviously that's not it - I feel so dense...  :o


And a question about the reindeer hunter - it says in the mouseover to watch over the deer population, does that mean one can kill off the population? If so, what are the margins?

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on October 27, 2016, 12:25:40 PM
You should not bother about the warning of running low on money. It has no importance! All merchants who sell things take daler. If you have the latest version, it's even an advantage to pay with daler; barter trader pay less for your goods. Just keep them in the port. I use to set a limit of some 100 daler and I seldom have any in my stores. Only if I have several ports, I use to have a small store to distribute the dalers between the ports. (but the merchants arrive often in the North, so it takes a long time until you really need more than 1)

I'm not sure, that you really can kill of a whole population totally, but if you hunt too hard, the herds will be very small and it takes time until they grow big again. You can see it in the herders cabin too. If you put more than 1 herdsman in the cabin, the first years they kill more animals. After some years, 3 herdsmen kill less deer than 1,and you can see that the herds are small.

I have always forgotten to ask @Tom Sawyer to set the number of herdsmen to 1 from the start. It's OK if you could increase it to 2 but 3 is too much. It makes no sense.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 27, 2016, 12:56:47 PM
It's a bit random but about 30% are export merchants who only want to buy something, 40% are food importers, 20% bring goods and 10% seeds and livestock.

It is possible to kill off a whole herd with a lot of hunters, but then a few animals will arrive in this area next year. So reindeer can not become extinct. But as Nilla said, it takes time until the herd provides food again and a small settlement could come in trouble.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 27, 2016, 01:21:40 PM
Quote from: Nilla on October 27, 2016, 12:25:40 PM
I have always forgotten to ask @Tom Sawyer to set the number of herdsmen to 1 from the start. It's OK if you could increase it to 2 but 3 is too much. It makes no sense.

That's a good hint and changed to default = 1 in version 4.1.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 27, 2016, 03:23:22 PM
Quote from: Nilla on October 27, 2016, 12:25:40 PMAll merchants who sell things take daler.

Wait... are you saying there ARE traders with different goods? My, I must have a really bad spell - so far, every single trader that came into my port was only dealing dalers (usually 100 dalers and about 40 pennings), after more than 20 of those loooooong years  ;)
It's about to kill my town, as I have no food whatsoever coming in, while producing plenty food is very hard in The North, at least in the early stages...

And after reading the wiki I really thought that's how it goes, all it says is "to get goods from the outside world you must have dalers" - well, glad to hear that sooner or later a boat with food will arrive, hopefully before everyone starved... damn RNG  >:(



Quotebut if you hunt too hard, the herds will be very small and it takes time until they grow big again.

Ah, I'm good then... I never abuse my herds, and never use more than 1 herdsman either... just started to worry because venison and salmon are all that keep my peeps floating, even if in bad health...  :)



Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 27, 2016, 12:56:47 PMIt's a bit random

Well, beats me - I had a 100% of nothing but dalers and pennings... completely threw me  :)


Other than that, kudos to you - so far all the chains are working nicely, and I love the visuals, down to all the little icons. The mine looks great, too... can't wait to finally get some boatloads to start building the brickworks and stuff...  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: brads3 on October 27, 2016, 03:33:49 PM
Nilla built that dam blocked the river. u get noooo boats.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 27, 2016, 04:17:48 PM
I did a test with the small town general trader. My first merchants were 1 export and 2 food merchants. As I said, 30%.^^ The rest is up to the game. You probably had extreme bad luck. If you are using Kids small town traders you can build the dock for building materials to get your first bricks. Maybe a specialized food trader would be great in the small town mod. Especially for Paeng. ;D
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 03:31:58 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 27, 2016, 04:17:48 PMMaybe a specialized food trader would be great in the small town mod.

Definitely  ;D ... CC has one, so I didn't check that there is none in the small town mod(s)...  :-[


Quotebuild the dock for building materials to get your first bricks

Is that the onlyway to get initial bricks? I was wondering about that chain - build a clay pit to make bricks, but need bricks to build a clay pit...  :o   :)

* ugh, and that claypit empties awfully fast - just 1 (!) worker and after a couple of years I'm already down to less than 50%... so it's either riddling the ground with plenty (non-removable?) pits, or continue importing bricks?

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on October 28, 2016, 03:58:41 AM
Now I know the secret about the merchants: The one with daler all came to you @Paeng , not to me. I had the port almost 10 years until one arrived.  ::)

And I do agree; the clay pit empties really fast.

I'm really looking forward to see how your settlement will look like. What can the master of city builders make with this so good looking stuff.

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 04:15:42 AM
Quote from: Nilla on October 28, 2016, 03:58:41 AMNow I know the secret about the merchants: The one with daler all came to you @Paeng , not to me.

Ohhhh... I'm so sorry Nilla!  ;)


QuoteI'm really looking forward to see how your settlement will look like.

Yeah, me too... since I went a considerable time without access to bricks, I resorted to the old block houses (by Raging Nonsense) - they mix in quite well, too... I'll see if I can pull out of the earlier building follies...  ;D

And thanks for the flowers!  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 28, 2016, 11:04:22 AM
Quote from: Paeng
Definitely  ;D ...

Then we have an official suggestion for a small town food trader @kid1293 :)

Quote from: Paeng
Is that the only way to get initial bricks?

You can get the initial bricks from the vanilla or any general trading post. The specialized dock is a nice way to get it faster and without random. The first bricks have to be bought because the settlement has to acquire the new technology of brickmaking. It creates a kind of time line with bricks as tier2 material and brick architecture as a new period with more efficient buildings. It removes the principle of being able to build everything from beginning, which makes the game very flat. And the simple wooden and stone houses are still useful in the early game and not simply replaced. One can like it or not but this is the idea behind it.

Quote from: Paeng
... that claypit empties awfully fast

Maybe we find a new balance for the clay pit. In this version it follows these numbers: You get 2000 clay from a pit with 10 x 8 tiles. Enough clay for 100 cottages or about 400 people. A worker mines about 100 clay in a year (enough for 5 cottages) and needs 20 years to empty a pit. That means 3 workers in pits provide the clay for 1 brickmaker. The same ratio like iron processing, where 3 miners produce the ore for 1 smelter. The land consumption of a clay pit is 1 tile for 25 clay (20 with the small pit). This is 100% more efficient than a vanilla quarry, where you get only 12 stone from a tile. This is underpowered and a reason why nobody use a quarry. The Nordic quarry gives 50 stone/tile and is about 100% deeper than a clay pit with 25 clay/tile. I had in mind that you should have to build up a brickyard with a few clay pits, storage yards etc. like on the picture for a town with about 2000 inhabitants. But this is only theory. :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: kid1293 on October 28, 2016, 02:13:08 PM
Does it work with a tiny food trader?

storage:            int _volumeLimit = 25000;
flags:
         RawMaterialFlags _sellFlags = Edible | Fruit | Vegetable | Grain | Protein;
         RawMaterialFlags _wantFlags = Tool | Health | Edible | Textile | Clothing | Alcohol | Fruit | Vegetable | Grain | Protein;
         RawMaterialFlags _buyFlags = Wood | Stone | Iron | Fuel;
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 02:28:59 PM

QuoteIt removes the principle of being able to build everything from beginning

Yeah, that's definitely cool... I did realize after some time that I need relatively small amounts of clay/brick/tiles to build the advanced housing... though to depend on the RNG is tough - that bad spell with the daler_only traders followed me through this whole play-through... like a curse  :)

I finally had to trash this attempt (sorry Nilla, no pics  :'( )... the problems just piled up - not the mod's fault, but my current lack of knowledge about it... I'm not used to play firewood economies, not my game at all, I always hoard my wood as if it's gold... LOL.

So I severely underestimated the need for (huge) storage areas for logs and firewood, which led to loads of idling without any production at all, which finally tore everything down... I could have denuded huge patches of forest to build the piles and warehouses, but it would have been haphazard at best, not planned...  :-\

This mod has quite a learning curve...  ;)


QuoteMaybe we find a new balance for the clay pit.  [... snip ...] I had in mind that you should have to build up a brickyard with a few clay pits, storage yards etc. like on the picture for a town with about 2000 inhabitants. But this is only theory. :)

Yeah, it will have to meet best conditions, and kinda precludes selling any manufactured bricks or tiles, e.g. to tide you over when the traders forget about you... have you considered making them upgradable? My horror vision is a landscape scarred by numerous pits (aside the lost real estate)...  ;)

Oh, and those traders - some of them gave me murder phantasies - I mean, they want as much for a handful of berries as for a whole side of venison (6 bucks)...  Well, Nilla said that pretty much gets evened out once you pile up some dalers, I just have not gotten far enough to do that (piling them up, I mean)...  ;D
But at first sight that greed really made me angry... more than the cold...  :)


Also, sorry to say - but that age mod does not agree with me at all... so slow, and all these 60-year old guys shacking up with students... tsk, tsk... could you please! write a little override to turn this back to "normal" (which would then make it optional)?

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 28, 2016, 04:43:46 PM
I definitely don't want a moonscape. For a normal use of the brickyard, it should have a typical dimension and it should look reasonable. Not a big town, conjured from a tiny clay pit. And no desert for a village. A clay/brick industry would be a different thing. I know a historical brickworks. There are big old clay pits surrounding the brickyard and it's a very special landscape. So if someone wants to make a brick export empire, it would also have natural consequences. Upgrades not because there are no building costs. If we need more clay from the pits I would simply increase the maximum amount.

And yeah, these merchants are bastards. Greedy and picky, and often unpunctual.^^

In 4.0 there is no change of the citizen.rsc. I will always keep it vanilla like, to let the player choose. If so, please reload the mod. There was a mistake I have fixed before I released it.

@kid1293 These flags would not work in the North but it's not a problem. I think its a good way to make it work in vanilla and CC and the North overwrites it. Same flags for CC and the North is not possible. I would prefer a small town trader to complete these specialized docks but a tiny one is great, too. Your decision. :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on October 28, 2016, 04:52:33 PM
Quote from: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 02:28:59 PM
I finally had to trash this attempt (sorry Nilla, no pics  :'( )... the problems just piled up - not the mod's fault, but my current lack of knowledge about it... I'm not used to play firewood economies, not my game at all, I always hoard my wood as if it's gold... LOL.

So I severely underestimated the need for (huge) storage areas for logs and firewood, which led to loads of idling without any production at all, which finally tore everything down... I could have denuded huge patches of forest to build the piles and warehouses, but it would have been haphazard at best, not planned...  :-\

I'm sorry, too. For not seeing any pictures and of cause for your trouble.

But firewood economics???? The North??? Not at all, to my experience. OK, it's cold so the houses need firewood, that's true, but no big stores, more a continuously collecting/chopping. You also need some to make charcoal, that you need for tool production and you have to store your charcoal, ironore and clay on piles, but huge piles, no need for that.



Quote from: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 02:28:59 PM

This mod has quite a learning curve...  ;)

I can agree on that. This mod changes the gameplay a lot. And it doesn't make it easier! ;)


Quote from: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 02:28:59 PM

Oh, and those traders - some of them gave me murder phantasies - I mean, they want as much for a handful of berries as for a whole side of venison (6 bucks)...  Well, Nilla said that pretty much gets evened out once you pile up some dalers, I just have not gotten far enough to do that (piling them up, I mean)...  ;D
But at first sight that greed really made me angry... more than the cold...  :)

The trade something quite different with this mod. @Tom Sawyer has a very special idea about trade prices; Easy to get (fish); cheap, more rare and hard to store (fruit) expensive; everything else; somewhere in between. I don't mind. Not at all! I find it interesting. You have to plan much more carefully, what you want to buy and how you'll produce the rest. There are also no such overpowered producers like vanilla wood choppers or brewers. You have to concider thoroughly, what you want to sell and I can tell you; in all my Nordic games, the export goods have changed over time.

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 28, 2016, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: Nilla on October 28, 2016, 04:52:33 PMfor your trouble

Nah, no trouble...  :)
Just some starting confusion... well, actually this attempt was a total fail - about as bad as my first attempt at vanilla Banished back then... LOL


QuoteBut firewood economics?

Well, compared to my style, it felt like that...
Will probably change when I understand the mechanics better  :)


Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on October 30, 2016, 12:16:19 PM
As an experienced North woman, I think, I will use this thread to encourage and promote the North mod! I can assure you; it's really worth a try!

The new version 4 is better than ever. You can almost say; it's a new game. So, be bold! Forget about the truths and tricks you've learned by playing Banished and get into a new adventure up North!

This might be a spoiler for some, who likes to discover things themselves, but I will give you some advice for a successful start.

Choice of map and settings

Don't be ashamed, even if you're an experienced player, to choose a mild climate. It's easier to learn the gameplay, if you don't have to struggle with bad harvests and freezing people.
I would choose one of the new maps; a small vast forest map or a medium lake map. Choose the start condition you normally prefere.

I wouldn't use too many other mods for the first attempt. It's possible to add a lot of other mods but I would start quite pure.

First steps

Open the menu "Actions and removal tools". There are several new icons. Many are very useful, especially at the beginning. Use the small hunter to hunt close reindeer, send your people out in the woods; to collect firewood in winter and wild food in summer (grows only in summer), use the small fisher and woodchopper.

Prepare early for tool production. It's a more complicated production chain. Iron ore -> iron bloom -> iron -> iron tools, every step needs charcoal and if you want steeltools, there's one more step.

Farming

Choose the right crops. Not everything will grow. You have potatoes from the start on every level except impossible. That's the best growing vegetable, cabbage and beans work as well. Apples are the best fruit. Cherries, plums and pears will work, too. Don't try anything else, if you want a good harvest. You might get some wheat in a mild climate but never a good harvest. Always be well ahead planting new orchards. They take longer to grow in this climate. (Note; this is only true, if no values from the crops are changed from the latest version)

If you play on "harsh" you have to start the harvest manually, on "fair" I recommend it but on "mild", it works also without a manual start.

Trade

Here you really have to forget everything from vanilla Bansihed.

There are partly new merchants, who arrive more often.

The prices are very much changed. Don't think you can put 100 firewood in the port and buy 400 apples. No way! If you order apples, I think you'll need 400 firewood for 100 apples.

The merchants want to live on their trade. The prices at the port are what things cost, if you want to buy. You will get less, if you sell them for other goods. You might get the selling price, if you wait for the right merchant; one of the export merchants, who brings coins. But no export merchant pays a higher price for everything, just for the things he/she wants!

Coins are introduced. You'll need them to buy animals and seeds. You can use them, to get the the best price for your goods.

There's no "best trading good", like firewood in vanilla Banished. You can sell a lot of different things. At the beginning my main export goods are logs and venison, later in the game; steel tools, clothes and beer. But I also sell other things, I have a surplus of; herbs, mushrooms, salmon, charcoal, mutton, reindeer furs..... if I play on mild, I would concider apples. Take your pick!

What make sense to buy? Barley, enough bricks and rooftiles to build a brickmaker, sheep, potato- and apple seeds (if you don't have them from start). In my present game, I also buy vegetables, wool, clay, and some iron ore. 

Good luck out in the Nordic wilderness!!



Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on October 30, 2016, 12:56:50 PM
Nice little guide, it will surely help "first-timers"...  :)

Well, my second attempt went a lot better - I survived the first ten years, which was quite a struggle, but I think I'm over the hill. Health is still down, don't have much food variety yet, and my 'taters keep freezing, but now I got enough peeps to set 2 farmers to a field  ;)

Metal production is well on the way, just built my first trade post and the first bridge across the stream - soon my bricks empire will rise  ;D


Here is what the village looks like after 10 years, population ~70 -

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/the_north/new01.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Gatherer on October 30, 2016, 01:38:02 PM
Two quick questions @Nilla

What is best to sell to get coins and best to buy with coins? Is it finished goods for dalers and then dalers for food?
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on October 30, 2016, 02:09:59 PM
The second question is easy; what you buy with coins; Anything you want. If you want to buy some animals or seed (the only thing you really need them for) save enough to be able to buy, what you want. Otherwise I get rid of them as fast as I can. As I said, I mainly buy food.

The first question is harder to answer; But I primary sell the goods, they pay more for. Some pay more for finished goods (tools, clothing), others for food and alcohol (beer, venison, salmon, mushroom), some also more for logs. If they still have daler left when I've sold these goods, I look into my stores to see, if I have very much of something, I have in my port. In that case, I sell that for daler, too, just to save space in my storage.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Gatherer on October 30, 2016, 02:23:48 PM
Thanks for the answers. I will definitely try the North mod in the near future. Right now I'm still busy with my current town. By the time I'm finished with it I have no doubt that North version 5 will be already out.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 03, 2016, 06:04:36 AM
Well, I'm over the worst with regards to food, though it "swings" in enormous arcs - sometimes I drop from 11K food down to a few hundred  :o  Deeply dependant on the traders coming in when I have stuff to trade, halfway decent harvests (still on 'taters and apples, freezing away quite often), venison (which is also rather irregular, swings between 100 and 500 per hunter/season)...

Plus I had some unexpected setbacks - built a mill and baker (Embx) just to find out that he needs salt for his recipes - huh?

My traders are still totally screwy - this time around I have the opposite problem - hardly any arrive with dalers, I had 2 in 30 years (!)... I have 3 ports, general and builders from Kid and food from Disc, but yeah... built one more to get sheep, realized he takes dalers only... duh...

Another thing I don't get a handle on is clothes (coats) - all the hunters (I use Kid's, three of them) only produce reindeer fur, I have not found another way to make coats... so I'm stuck at 30% clothed... hoping to get dalers and sheep soon.

I'm good on tools, food is okay (lacking grain in a bad way though), pop is up to ~130, but right now I can't really advance...  ???
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: RedKetchup on November 03, 2016, 09:57:06 AM
should use choo choo, it is more constant
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 03, 2016, 10:37:29 AM
@Paeng , you can make reindeer coats. Work like warm coats. Maybe you use a modded version of a tailor, that's not adapted to the North. In that case, I recommend to build a vanilla tailor.

I don't know what climate you use. But especially, if you're playing on fair or harsh, I would recommend to start the harvest manually (if you're not already do this). Less will freeze that way and often the crop stops growing anyhow because it's too cold, before the automatic harvest starts.

I will also strongly recommend to build a vanilla trading port. There is a very big and important difference between them and the small from Kid (I haven't used the one from Disc, yet so I can't say how it is) . With the vanilla port the merchants arrive much more often. I had no big trouble to support over 900 people to 100% with grain and vegetables and grain for I think 7 breweries with 4 ports.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 03, 2016, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: Nilla on November 03, 2016, 10:37:29 AMyou can make reindeer coats.

I know, and I did - they seem very costly though (?)... or else I was just too timid sending out hunters, weary of "over-hunting"...

Anyway, I finally got sheep (after almost 40 years), and all my problems vanished... with the wool I was able to make coats quickly and in "normal" quantities, so that's solved.

After that my whole production, population and house-building got back on track, I got out of the old-age-death slumps, and my town is starting to feel the way it should...  :D

QuoteLess will freeze

Yeah, I got the right proportions now... I just hate losing anything to a freeze, had to adjust my field-sizes a few times...  :)
Now I can afford seeds, but I'm not too hot on the choices you mentioned - potatoes, beans and cabbage - that's kinda boring (visually)... and what about grain, which do you recommend? In v4.1 there will be wheat and rye, I think... 

QuoteI will also strongly recommend to build a vanilla trading port

I was on the verge of doing just that a couple of times, glad I didn't... I don't want merchants to come more often, that just breaks my immersion, dong dong dong, drives me nuts  ;D ... I'd rather have them come less often, but have a large capacity - the small ports are cool, but too small... after a while one ends up again spamming the waterfront with numerous ports (or even building vanilla ports, just for the cap)...  :(

Also, I like to produce all food-groups on my own, and then just import occasional loads to fill up my storage... and I like to process food (for higher food value for my peeps, not for export), so I'm looking forward to bakers, and hopefully also butchers, saltery and such...



Quote from: RedKetchup on November 03, 2016, 09:57:06 AMshould use choo choo, it is more constant

Yeah, for this play-through I stayed away from the big mods yet, I wanted to learn the North's "defaults" first...  :)
But choo choo is up next for sure...  ;)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 03, 2016, 02:56:29 PM
I don't know which climate you play, but unless you play mild, no grain will grow and if I remember right, even in a mild climate, wheat grows medium good and corn not at all. But it's bin a while since I tested on mild, so I might remember it wrong.

And to the boring vegetable; again unless you play mild, I wouldn't try any other crops than potatoes, bean and cabbage. On mild some of the others might give some harvest, but some doesn't grow at all.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 03, 2016, 03:13:27 PM
Actually I'm playing Nordic Valley, medium size, fair, medium start...
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2016, 03:34:03 PM
The vanilla trading post attracts about 2 merchants in a year, depending on the map. More than the small and tiny traders, but they work also well, especially if combined to a trading post with more docks and because of building material or livestock on demand.

A reindeer coat (http://www.banishedventures.com/wiki/reindeercoat) is made from a fur from a deer. If an uneducated tailor does not waste anything. The best choice in early game. To make warm clothes from wool is also not easy going. The Wiki is now up to date. :)

I have not testet the Cho Cho mod in the North. Would be an experiment but it can be that it works. As far as I know the coins are in the same flag.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 03, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2016, 03:34:03 PMA reindeer coat is made from a fur from a deer.

Yeah, clear... however, when I had only 70 peeps, 4 hunters and 2 tailors (all educated) could only cloth 30% of my pop... that seemed very low. 1 or 2 hunters and 1 tailor should be more than enough for 70 peeps... (with leather coats, not warm coats!)

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2016, 05:42:00 PM
That can not be. A tailor makes up to 200 coats in a year, enough for 800 people. I think it's too fast. And 4 hunters take at least 20 animals per year, coats for 80 peps. With active hunting you can make a lot more hides. And hunting is important in early game. So why only 1-2 for 70 peps? This would not work because of food. The coats come more by the way. But each game is different.

A result of your game could be, that we should give the sheep also in a medium start. The player should have an option to start as a "farmer" but without this pre-built village. What about new start conditions for different play styles, like:

- Villager (pre-built houses and barn)
- Farmer (comes with a cart full of seed potatoes, apples and a few sheep)
- Hunter (tools and clothing but no farm stuff)
- Survivor (impossible start with nothing)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 04, 2016, 03:41:22 AM
Sheep on a medium start would be good. In my last game it took very long to get any. As I think, I said in my blog; three times sheep were offered but I had no dalers to buy them. As I finally got some cash, it took a couple of years to get the sheep. I could buy 100 wool, so there was never a problem with clothing, but without these extra wool cotes, there might have been a few without clothing in that game, too.

@Paeng, how are your hunters located? Is there many other things in the hunters area? In the picture of your first settlement, the big hunter (reindeerherder) has many other things in his area. That's not good for the productivity. I guess the small hunters from Kid might be even more vulnerable to disturbances. Otherwise my experiences of them is good, but the hunters have a small tendency to overhunt the reindeer, so I prefere the large one. The first years they kill 10 or more animals, than it gets down to the half in a good located tower but it didn't get lower than that.

To the ports; I must confess, that I felt almost molested by the many merchants in my first Nordic games. After I've realized, that you don't need many ports for the settlement, I'm fine with it. In my last game, I built my second and third port unusually early. Partly, because I did gamble too much and partly, because I had to buy a lot of food. (The second with about 150 and the third with about 300 people.) In your case; with trade only as support, one port will do for a long time. @Tom Sawyer is a master of balancing. With this one port, the balance between coins and goods will be much better, than with your 3 different ports (only one has a 30%(?) chance of getting coins, half as often as in the vanilla version; no wonder that you don't get many) and totally; there will be less disturbing "gongs".  ;D OK; I can agree, that the big vanilla ports are not very good looking. If I can avoid it, I will not build any in my attempt to build a "good" looking town.

Anyhow; I'm glad, that things have turned out well in your town. Looking forwards to see some pictures.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 04, 2016, 05:08:21 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2016, 05:42:00 PMA result of your game could be, that we should give the sheep also in a medium start.

Well, I'd say stick to your line for now - my current experiences are most probably not very representative - "damaged" as I am from other mods and a certain way I like to play...  ;)

I guess mostly it's me needing to adjust my attitude - and getting used to your way of balancing...  ;D



Quote from: Nilla on November 04, 2016, 03:41:22 AMhow are your hunters located?

By now they are all out in the forest... and yes, I already moved the reindeer herder farther out, so there are not many items in his circle... I changed all my hunters to the Kid version and placed them in a (my) default way - not in a cul-de-sac, near open water, and in a place where I spotted a herd grazing during a season... Now the big herder (1 worker) gives me about 5 furs/year, the 4 hunters each bring in 4 to 10 furs, depending how good their season was.

I will let this sit for a while and check later whether the supply of furs for the tailor is better now - meanwhile I changed to wool coats  :)


QuoteWith this one port, the balance between coins and goods will be much better, than with your 3 different ports (only one has a 30%(?) chance of getting coins

Hmmm... That so? I'm terrible at math... well, it would be fine if a General Trader would truely bring dalers 30% of the time - small/new towns can't afford too many of these things anyway...
* I must admit I don't really need the small Builder's Supply port (yet)... mostly I just wave them through. I only built it to be prepared for tight spells on basic stuff...

I'll have to run some more trials to see if it is the number of ports, or if I really just had super bad luck with lousy RNG... remember, in my previous town it was just opposite - plenty dalers but no goods to "buy" them... this time around, plenty of goods to sell but no dalers coming in... LOL
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 06, 2016, 08:01:39 AM
Sorry about double post...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I got my village to survive... even if a lot of things did not go my way yet, and I still have open questions...  ;)

Here are some of my charts -
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/production.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/food.png)
Food was a constant problem, with the harvests often hampered by early frost, unreliable traders... but I'm used to that  ;)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/population.png)
As I mentioned earlier, I was a bit at a loss for a while how to continue expanding... so there was quite a spell with stagnating population...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/tools.png)
Tools went okay, though I had times where my limits for mine/bloom/charcoal/iron/tools had me puzzled, one of the components always seemed to be "on hold", preventing a good flow of tools... somehow I'm not yet clear how things are classified (coal, ore, materials etc.? see also below)...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/coins.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/firewood.png)
Here you see that I had long spells without any coins arriving... the spikes in firewood correspond with the frenzied buying when coins did come in... LOL

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/clothing.png)
Well, like I said - before sheep and wool, I had a really hard time providing coats - the reindeer furs my hunters got didn't even make a dent in the curve...


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5012419/Banished/winfielding/materials.png)
I'm a bit at a loss what else counts as "materials" - in the end they just piled up and I don't really know where they came from... :-[

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 06, 2016, 10:57:33 AM
I would like to answer the open questions. :)

To the statistics. The food chart looks very "nervous".^^ But I think this is the normal up and down in the year with harvest in summer and consumption in winter. But on a low level of stock with critical moments in winter. That is why the chart looks so extrem. The problem is rather the small amount of food, as you said. And basically also the main challenge in this mod. Looking at your professions, I would say more hunting and also fishing would have been good. And of course you had extreme bad luck with the trade. And too bad that the bakery chain has not worked because of a bug.

The clothing chart I do not understand. Actually hunting is very powerful with these big herds of up to 30 animals, active unlimited hunting and warm coats from the beginning. But I think it needs another play style than in vanilla and probably in CC. More active. Maybe you were too careful with the reindeer population. I have removed this warning because it could be a false signal.

The last chart could be increased by wool. It has a relation to your sheep boost.

To the flagging. Ore, coal and charcoal are in the same flag as raw materials stored on piles (technically Iron). The further processed or valuable materials of bloom, iron and steel as well as wool, leather and hides are flagged as raw materials stored in barns (technically CoalFuel). The Textile flag is used and reserved for money. Clay and bricks are flagged as Stone. Coal is also Fuel and can be used in houses without any conflicts because charcoal is used for iron processing. Salt is also a valuable material and the new bakers seem to be too new to have a knowledge about this flag and could not store it in their bakery..^^
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 06, 2016, 12:28:27 PM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 06, 2016, 10:57:33 AMLooking at your professions, I would say more hunting and also fishing would have been good.

Yeah, I was definitely too careful about hunting (though being stingy with natural resources has always been my game)...
Fishing was to the max - good spots were rare on this map, since I chose a map without lakes on purpose... okay, I could have changed Kid's 2-man posts to default 4-man posts, but I find those too large (visually)...
I hope that more processing will come to the fishing industry  ;)


QuoteThe last chart could be increased by wool. It has a relation to your sheep boost.

Thought so, too - the curve has the same characteristics...


QuoteTo the flagging.

Phew... no wonder my old head has a hard time wrapping around this  :o
I can find my stuff across barns and piles, but I got confused often by the way limits were displayed, and had to go trial'n'error to find out which I need to raise...  =:-]

Clay and bricks flagged as Stone makes sense, of course - I did run out of stone several times because the spinner said I got plenty, but then they were all brick and tiles... usually I caught up quickly though when my builders would not perform.


Anyway, all just a matter of getting used to (I hope  ;) )

And thanks for the clarifications :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 10, 2016, 03:36:25 AM
I was a bit confused and disturbed about these limits too at the beginning and muss confess; after all my Nordic games, I don't yet really know how everything is "labled. Now I don't care. I always have the inventory from the townhall open, to look on the materials I have anyway.

It's the same in my present game with the Mega Mod (CC). Dry goods; a lot of things, same as materials, fuel and........ You have to keep an eye on your inventory. Partly it's harder in this game, because there are so many different things in the inventory, but it's also partly easier, because the gameplay is easier and it's not that critical, if you're running low on specific materials. (OK, if you're running out of a special building material, you have to stop building what you planned. Irritating, but you will not starve or run out of something else crucial, if you have to wait)

One thing to fishing: Did you have any trout fisher? I didn't see any on your screenshots, but they are hard to spot. They could be put everywhere; on small streams, at the beginning and end of the river. They only need a small water area for themself. They produce a little less than a good fisher but still good enough.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 10, 2016, 04:53:01 AM
I try to make better labels. Not nice if it is confusing.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 10, 2016, 05:06:56 AM
I really don't care so much anymore. Besides; I think it's impossible to make it like the vanilla game, where each "category" is just a few, often just one material. As soon as you introduce something new, it has to be put somewhere and it will always be somehow confusing, if you only look at the small menu.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 10, 2016, 11:38:57 AM
Quote from: Nilla on November 10, 2016, 03:36:25 AMI was a bit confused and disturbed about these limits too at the beginning

Yeah, I guess that's quite normal... anyway, I'm glad I'm not all alone...  8)

QuoteOne thing to fishing: Did you have any trout fisher?

I must admit that I blissfully ignored them - my game is always centered on fishing, and I daresay very successfully... I can squeeze the max out of my fishing... small spots with very low output don't appeal to me, I go after the 3K+ spots... but thanks for the hint, I will try them out in my next play...  :)


Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 10, 2016, 04:53:01 AMI try to make better labels. Not nice if it is confusing.

Well, your labels and especially your mouse-hints are pretty good and informative already... my main confusion (not only in the North, but in all mods that mix up the flags differently) is over the limits... would it be possible to extend the string "Limit" (in the spinners) to show what it belongs to? e.g. "Limit: Stone, Coal, Ore", or so... so when I open an item - a mine, a bloom, or whatever, I can see right away which limit is attached to this item...

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 10, 2016, 01:01:40 PM
I have revised the flags and limits so they are more understandable. All buildings get meaningful limit labels such as "Ore Limit". There will be the following classification. Not new but more tidy.

Wood: logs, timber(?)
Stone: stone, clay, bricks and tiles
Ore (tech. Iron): iron ore, copper ore, silver ore, stored on piles
Fuel: firewood and coal, stored on piles
Material (tech. CoalFuel): stored in barns
Food
Herbs
Clothes
Tools
Drinks (tech. Alcohol): stored in taverns
Coins (tech. Textile)

A few changes were necessary. Charcoal is now only a material, not ore and not fuel. The charcoaler follows the material limit and the charcoal will be stored in barns. No way to keep it on piles without confusions. But I think it's not a problem. It has to be stored next to a blacksmith together with bloom and iron (in a barn). The brewery follows the material limit to produce "not auto consumed" alcohol and the tavern follows the "drink limit" to control the consumption of alcohol. Material is of course a collection category for all new resources without a specific game function and it is not possible to control anything specifically but now it feels better in game without confusions about the limits. And it is close to vanilla and CC.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 11, 2016, 03:54:33 AM
Most of it sounds good to me.

I'm a bit sad about the charcoal. I think it's more convenient to store it on stockpiles. OK, you need it together with other things stored in barns, but first; you need a lot of it, second; it's a possible export material and third: I like these small neat boxes with the black content.

As it is now, I find, textiles would be much more valuable to have a separate limit than coins. The limit for coins is totally unimportant. You need coins only to trade. If you use the trade in the most efficient way; you "buy" as much coins you can and get rid of them as fast as possible. You will never really store any, and certainly not reach any limits. Of cause, this could change, if you plan to make a coin production. But honestly, I'm not a fan of coin production. It was never produced by anyone else but the "state" (unless you go back to medieval times or earlier, but in that case, we need other houses). It's really not necessary to produce everything.

To valuable metals; copper and silver are historically produced. But the question is; to what use in Banished? I guess, it would mainly be a export good. I'm not sure, I like products, that are only meant for export. Back to coin production? Rather not. Copper could be a building material; a nice church could have a copper roof, an extra efficient brewery or distillery, could have copper equipment and of cause as byproduct; the red color. :)

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 11, 2016, 04:42:38 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 10, 2016, 01:01:40 PMI have revised the flags and limits so they are more understandable.

Sounds good... true, I also liked the charcoal crates, but hey... in my latest town I prefer the big warehouses anyway, that's a lot tidier than stockpiles.  :)

Copper on the horizon - I like it, I was wondering what new chains around the Falu Rödfärg would pop up...  ;)


I'm a bit with Nilla on the coins - do they really need a whole flag on their own? What I like about them is their light weight, they seem to free a lot of cap in the ports, but as Nilla said you only need/use them in the ports anyway... (?)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Abandoned on November 11, 2016, 06:34:28 AM
I have not gotten to the north yet but have been following posst and I too liked the looks of the charcoal crates on the stockpile.  Could they not be stored in both places?  Is there a specialized stockpile for charcoal? 
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 11, 2016, 10:30:23 AM
Good thoughts here! And that's the bullshit with these flags. A few blank flags, lets say flag0 - 9 would solve a lot of problems.

So charcoal can not have its own flag. It can not be fuel because it would be consumed by citizens. And the combination of coal, charcoal and ores was a reason for confusion with limits. Now coal is explicit fuel to heat houses and coal mining follows the fuel limit. Charcoal is explicit material to process iron and follows the material limit. Nothing is mixed in divers flags and limits or counted in more than one number. Mining will not stop because of charcoal and so on.

A possibility to keep it on piles would be a specialized storage yard for materials. There would be all materials (others in closed crates or so) but in a forest next to a charcoal burner it would be used only for this material. Then you have the choice to build a shed or a small storage yard for charcoal and the vendors would pick up it there to provide it in a warehouse where it is mostly stored as Paeng said. Would be just an option and if placed advisedly not a reason for confusion about storage locations.

A reserved money flag is necessary for trade. The coin limit is not needed without a production building as you said, it's just in game. And I'm also not a fan of coin production. Would be counterfeiting.^^ But a textile limit also makes no sense because what building should follow this limit? Pastures, hunters and farmers (flax) are following the food limit. A side effect of using the textile flag for money is that no warning of "low stock" appears if coins are carried back from barns to trading posts. At least I have not noticed this since it has been changed.

My ideas to new metals are: Silver from mining and gold from rivers as valuable export goods of course and maybe as special equipment for a church or further processed by a goldsmith. Copper also as a special building material for roofing of endgame buildings or (good idea) for a distillery. And yes, we are getting closer to the Falu Rödfärg chain. We already have rye flour and linseed oil and the third ingredient will be tailings from copper mining. Will be fun to make this Nordic original.

The big question is: If we have falu red, should it be needed to build the red houses? Actually yes but as far as I know buildings can only require 3 materials. Not good and it would mean to make bundles of building materials by a builders yard or something like that. CC makes it in a similar way, or? Complicated and not really nice. But step by step. Next will be the mill to make rye flour. :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: kid1293 on November 11, 2016, 11:00:16 AM
One way is to build a temporary house (for starters) and upgrade it with
whatever is nescessary (falu paint). You can use 3 more materials when upgrading.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: brads3 on November 11, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
TOM there is the MyPrecious mod that has gold and silver mining and a smelter. it does not require CC to work.
might b more than you are looking for. might save you from designing and building your own. there is also another mine mod that has coal,tin and copper. i do believe it was independant of CC. very rustic looking mines.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 11, 2016, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: kid1293 on November 11, 2016, 11:00:16 AM
One way is to build a temporary house (for starters) and upgrade it with
whatever is nescessary (falu paint). You can use 3 more materials when upgrading.

This might be the "natural" thing to make it, but I really don't like upgrading houses. If it could be made without tearing the house down and throw the family out on the street, it would be OK, but I don't think the game allows that.

I see two other possibilities, none of them perfect;

A. Replace bricks and rooftiles with one brick material and use it with logs and paint to build the red houses
B. Introduce a new profession; painter who paints the logs and you'll need painted logs, brick and roof tiles for the houses.

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 11, 2016, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Nilla on November 11, 2016, 11:45:00 AMI really don't like upgrading houses. If it could be made without tearing the house down and throw the family out on the street

But you're always faced with that when you want to re-structure/gentrify an old/early part of a settlement...?
Personally I like upgrades, because you can re-build in the same place, more or less...  :)

But I'm not married to that idea... though as Kid said, it's a good way to add new materials to a building... maybe there is a "middle way"...  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Turis on November 11, 2016, 12:38:27 PM
Build an inn/lodge or another house for the family while waiting for the house to be upgraded.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 11, 2016, 12:48:02 PM
Quote from: Turis on November 11, 2016, 12:38:27 PMBuild an inn/lodge or another house for the family while waiting for the house to be upgraded.

Yep... in addition, I usually watch any place destined for renewal for a while and wait until an ancient single lives there - then move her/him to the boarding house and demolish/upgrade the place...  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 11, 2016, 04:04:04 PM
I've tried to expand the UI. Possible but it crashs if a fourth material is defined. Seems the game can not handle it. I have changed the build.rsc and createbar.rsc.

I think with an upgrade button the first construction would be completely demolished with recovered building materials. They would have to remove this stuff and then rebuild a new construction. Just to paint the house. Too weird, or?

Then only the way to prefabricate or bundle the building materials. Not red-painted logs but option A with a "brick and tile package" in any way. Or other packages with more stuff. CC has these building supplies as packages and probably the most practicable solution.

A pity and a need to change the core game for more than 3 building materials.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 11, 2016, 06:14:09 PM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 11, 2016, 04:04:04 PMI've tried to expand the UI. Possible but it crashs if a fourth material is defined.

You could check with Kralyerg - iirc he found a way to add a 4th material... not sure, it was probably abandoned with the idea of "bundling" even more resources, which is a pretty good way of doing it, too...

QuoteI think with an upgrade button the first construction would be completely demolished with recovered building materials. They would have to remove this stuff and then rebuild a new construction.

Yep, that's the way of all upgrades (recovering ~50% of the construction materials)... sure, it's a bit slow, maybe even repetitive - but it gives you a way to re-texture or even re-model an item while maintaining the footprint... it has both ups and downs  :)

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 12, 2016, 02:53:42 AM
I think, this principle "bundling" from CC is a clever idea to walk around this 3 material limit, too. But it also has some disadvantages. I guess, if you would bundle brick and rooftiles, you would have to introduce a new profession "bundler" or some other weird profession and a special building for this. That's why I suggested a painter making painted logs as alternative. At least it's a real profession.  Perhaps, if it's only these two brick materials, you could let the brickmaker have a third field of work; bundling his materials in suitable packages. Could make sense.

And having to tear down and rebuild, if you want any red houses? No, I wouldn't like that. That would be unreasonable.

Something completely different.

We've discussed old types of roofs before. I forgot one, you rarely see any such buildings here. I googled a bit and obviously, they were much more common a bit further north and also in Norway. I'm talking about a roof of wood. Here's a picture. It's Zorngården in Mora, Dalarna. The buildings are very old. The oldest built from wood, that was cut in 1237. Gathered together from the region by the painter Anders Zorn.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 12, 2016, 04:09:06 AM
Quote from: Nilla on November 12, 2016, 02:53:42 AMintroduce a new profession "bundler" or some other weird profession

Wholesale Building Supplier? Not so weird...  ;) and could maybe run out of the warehouse?


BTW - warehouse... the wiki says that you can run it with or without a vendor. I would suggest to set a default of 0 workers then (that can be manually raised) - right now it comes with 1 default worker, and if I don't assign him to a warehouse, he runs around as jobless (or the building signalling an open job)...

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 12, 2016, 05:36:29 AM
Good idea and I had tried that. But I think it did not work with worker = 0 (minimum 1). Therefore the solution by work button. Disable work button and the warehouse is "unmanaged". There will be no icon for disabled work. Needs a tool tip and a hint in the Wiki.

The building supplier is not bad or just a builder could do the job. Located in a building yard making packs of building materials, mixing falu red and other stuff for the construction sites. Could be more a small workplace, individual to combine with storage locations for building mats, roads and decorative fences. I'm a fan of small units to combine it by the player...

And this picture is very interesting. Just logs for roofing. Very early game housing. The well is funny. Seems they had no material for a rope.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 12, 2016, 06:16:31 AM
To the well. I guess the bucket is not original With that huge "brunnssvängel" it must have bin much bigger. The sense is of cause, to use the lever effect, to easier lift heavy loads. For that small bucket, it seems to be a bit "overkill".
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Abandoned on November 12, 2016, 07:51:43 AM
I know nothing about bundling or CC, and only what I've read about north but I agree with Nila, don't think I would like to have to tear down houses, would rather have painter with red logs.  The simpler the better for me.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 12, 2016, 02:58:09 PM
Hmmm... am I missing a point here?
Even changing a vanilla wooden house to a stone house needs tearing it down, recover the materials, then re-build it... do you guys never do that? Just curious...  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Abandoned on November 12, 2016, 04:46:33 PM
hi @Paeng , so far the games I've played, if I start with houses already built I keep them that way.  Too busy trying to get other things built and roads paved.  I like the looks of the wooden vanilla houses with the starting barn and fishing piers and forester.  If I want a vanilla stone house, I build one. Maybe sometime I will give upgrading a try. I liked adding second floor to colorful little houses, Mexican, and old tailor.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 12, 2016, 06:48:13 PM
Quote from: Abandoned on November 12, 2016, 04:46:33 PMif I start with houses already built I keep them that way.

I see... well, I never start with pre-built houses, and I don't start with building a "town center", I'm a great fan of so-called "natural growth", as opposed to "building on a grid"...

My first houses are always spread out as far as possible, near what I figure will be future production hubs... so when I build those hubs, they will get the needed number of houses (or clusters of houses) as well - 2 forest workes + 1 house nearby, 2 gatherers + 1 house, 2 fishermen + 1 house, once I build a market it will have maybe 4 vendors plus 2 houses and so on... once I have determined good locations for these hubs, I then build "inward" towards what will be my town center (with larger clusters of "residentials").

Until I reach there, a lot of re-construction (demolish and rebuild in slightly corrected locations - hence my wondering about any hesitancy to "upgrade") will have happened already... that's why I also never bother with roads early on - way too expensive, I need all my stone for houses, bridges, ports etc... and I'm super stingy with my resources, I never clearcut whole forests or rock- and ore-deposits, but get them little by little, as needed for my constructions... usually I start building roads only after 20 or 30 years, when I have a secure supply of stone (rich natural deposits, quarry, import), and when I know where my roads need to go... As I'm not a min-max-er, I never really had that need4speed...  ;)

Mind you - I'm not saying that this is "better" or "more successful"... it's just the playing style that suits me  :)
Other players - other styles... and that's good that way. It's just fun comparing styles once in a while...  ;)

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Abandoned on November 12, 2016, 07:21:53 PM
@Paeng , your system of building sounds very good, your towns turn out beautiful.  I am still experimenting with gameplay and I am still trying different mods and combinations.  I usually start with dirt roads and pave the high traffic ones when I have stone and workers to spare.  So far I have only been building small settlements on small maps.  The north looks really beautiful but I don't think I am quite ready for that yet but maybe soon. There are a lot of mods I have yet to try.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 13, 2016, 02:45:28 AM
Quote from: Paeng on November 12, 2016, 06:48:13 PM

Mind you - I'm not saying that this is "better" or "more successful"... it's just the playing style that suits me  :)
Other players - other styles... and that's good that way. It's just fun comparing styles once in a while...  ;)

Even if the both of us have the most different approach on this game, I can find, I very much agree on this. That's also a reason, I like this page so much. It's interesting and fun to see how other people play. There's no best way. Everything is right, if it leads to your personal "goal" for that game.

Discussing houses: An important fact is, that you can build a vanilla stone house from the start, without the detour of upgrading a wooden house. If @Tom Sawyer choose to make the red houses as an upgrade from some other simpler building, you would not be able to build any right away. A pity! I'm a big fan of the red houses, but I don't think, I would build many in such a case.

And, yes. Occasionally I upgrade houses but I avoid it, if I can. As you might have understood; I dislike "spoiling" resources; materials and manpower. It's rare, that I demolish and move any buildings. As you have seen; normally I never concider aesthetics. I put buildings in a long term, efficient way from the start. If I demolish any, it's because I need the land for expansion.

I do build roads early, if I find, there's a reason for it, (to connect an important stockpile to a port or an important barn to a market...) but no stone roads. The stones are much too valuable early in a game. At some point later, when I have a lot of stones and enough spare builders, I often put stones on the main roads, where most people walk. But this will take 20 years or more.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 13, 2016, 03:16:29 AM
Quote from: Nilla on November 13, 2016, 02:45:28 AMIf Tom choose to make the red houses as an upgrade from some other simpler building, you would not be able to build any right away.

Wait... so far, in my plays it took quite a few years before I could build falu houses - first I needed to import the brick-technology, which needs a lot of "cash" up front to build a port and all...

What housing do you build before falu is available? And do you not change those houses (or some at least) to falu later on?

* In my current game I used some of Kid's red houses (also because of the different shapes), but later I changed most of them, because the color is rather bright...
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 13, 2016, 04:23:09 AM
My thoughts about upgrades. Actually it is just a shortcut for faster tearing and rebuilding. For vanilla stone houses it is nice to have, otherwise rather useless. But it is awesome to remove decorative items or to quit hunting and fishing.

I will not paint red houses by upgrades. Also no red-painted logs, which are carried to the construction site. The color must be attached to the finished house. Every craftsman would kill me for it and I like the timber texture of the building stages. The options are: More than 3 building materials if possible or packs of building materials or cancel the color as building requirement.

To "upgrade" an early game house like a log cabin to an advanced building like the red cottage is another thing. Could make sense but only possible if it has the same size. And you can not choose the F-variant. Not nice for citybuilders.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on November 14, 2016, 01:05:59 AM
Sorry about my bad English: As I said right away; I didn't mean from the beginning of the game, I just meant without first building some other house and upgrade it. Sometimes I do replace at least some of the original buildings, sometimes not.

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 24, 2016, 12:03:44 PM
Bah... I go take a break and play x-com for a few... my newest town crashed badly and the save seems to be thoroughly corrupt, and I don't feel like going 9 or 10 hours back...  >:(

:)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Turis on November 24, 2016, 12:59:02 PM
What about the last autosave or did you disable it?
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 24, 2016, 02:01:28 PM
Quote from: Turis on November 24, 2016, 12:59:02 PMWhat about the last autosave or did you disable it?

Nope, autosave is on... but that's the one that is corrupted (or rather a point 2 or 3 minutes before the game conks out), and my last true save is wayyyy back... my old fault, I get so deeply into a game that I forget to do saves at regular intervalls...  :-\

Must be one of those "unmotivated" errors, I did not change anything or added new mods or what.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 24, 2016, 02:19:37 PM
Oh, that's annoying! Maybe this cottage bug or a crash while autosaving because of a conflict in your mod list. If cottage bug then the current version could worth a try. Just uploaded. It expands the house UI to 10 people, also of existing houses in a saved game. But I think it would be very lucky if your lost game would be rescued by this update. And always if you enable/disable mods, exit and reload Banished before you start a new game...

But I don't want you to stop playing xcom. I am a great xcom fan. Enemy Unknown, XCom2 not until now. My "impossible" mode (the name) was inspired by xcom and I want an ironman mode too. ;D
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on November 25, 2016, 06:04:46 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 24, 2016, 02:19:37 PMIf cottage bug then the current version could worth a try. Just uploaded.

Oh, that's good to know... current means 4.3? I was still playing a 4.3beta (or maybe 4.2.2, not sure anymore)...



QuoteI am a great xcom fan

;D
Yeah, once I start, I can't leave it... it's like a fever LOL

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 25, 2016, 06:39:11 AM
It's just a small bug fix to 4.3.1.

I feel like a session xcom. Need some change from fiddly work on houses.  ;D
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on December 29, 2016, 04:43:55 AM
Okay, just playing a round of 4.3.1...
This time around I found into the game much easier...  :)

One trap I keep falling into is the stone limit - since it ties stone, bricks and tiles, I always "see" I have plenty stone when I really don't have any... falsely cursing my peeps for not finishing up a construction I been waiting for...  :o  Need to get into the habit of checking on stone via the townhall...  ;)

Another thing are the tunnels - I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the build times are longer than default? I only noticed because I need to build a lot of them in my current mountain-y map, and man - they take forever, and cost a fortune!

Old pet peeve of mine - why do I need to "pay" with stone in order to scrape stone out of the mountain? In my mind that's not logical - I should GAIN stone by building tunnels... If I'd gain stone, I would not mind longer work cycles, and even (a modest) additional cost for logs, plus higher death rate maybe... That would give me a sense of achievement. As is, I tend to just have my peeps take the long hike around a mountain...  >:(   :)

* On the positive site - tunnels now seem to blend smoother into the mountain-side, without that elongated entrance sticking far out... or is that just my quirky imagination, luck, wishful thinking?
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 30, 2016, 02:51:55 AM
That's right @Paeng. Bricks and tiles are flagged as stone to be stored on piles. As soon as your brick production starts, the status bar also counts bricks, tiles and clay. This is just like in NMT and the best solution I think.

And yes, tunnel construction is more extensive in the north. I mean, it should be an important project to develop new land by tunneling a mountain. It's way too easy in vanilla (my opinion). Here it takes more work time and also a bit more stone (8 instead of 4 per tile). But this is just to keep the same building costs. You have more stone in the north because it comes 4/3 instead of 2/1 and the maximum production of a quarry is 16k instead of 4k. So the building costs are about the same. To adjust the work time could worth a closer look. On a mountain map it might be a bit too hard. Thanks for this hint!

The tunnel model is the same. Maybe the better look comes from the mountain texture. :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on December 31, 2016, 03:40:55 AM
I don't build tunnels very often. I guess, it's my old habit of being stingy about the stones. But in a Nordic game, I often have too much stones, so I have built some and I've also noticed, that they take longer and need more stone than the vanilla tunnel.

I think the argumentation of both @Paeng and @Tom Sawyer make sense. A tunnel takes a long time to build. (@kid1293  knows it very well. In his neighborhood quite a long railwaytunnel was built. How long did it take?20 years? ) A vanilla tunnel is too easy and fast to build. But that much stone and no other material? If you build it through the mountain, I agree with @Paeng , it ought to give more stones than it costs, but it would need a lot of logs and wood to be built. Especially as they used fire to brake stones, before there were any explosives.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on December 31, 2016, 05:10:04 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 30, 2016, 02:51:55 AMBricks and tiles are flagged as stone to be stored on piles.

Yes, good solution - just need to wrap my head around it  ;)


Quotetunnel construction is more extensive in the north.

Yep, and I agree with your reasoning...
Though to me you should not adjust the longer work time, but the cost of stone...  :)


QuoteThe tunnel model is the same. Maybe the better look comes from the mountain texture.

Cool - it certainly seems to create a rounded "hump" over the entrance, instead of a long stretch of exposed tunnel...



Quote from: Nilla on December 31, 2016, 03:40:55 AMbefore there were any explosives.

Yeah, I always thought some blasting powder (which existed long before dynamite) would be a nice little production chain to break huge quarries... maybe something like Kid's tiny quarry, with input of some rawmaterials (e.g. sulfur and charcoal)... cool for maps with little natural stone  :)

To stay with stone - I always felt there should be a stonemason as well, for more advanced or sophisticated housing... Just using the stone collected from the map seems a bit too simple...
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 12, 2017, 06:42:45 AM
Another question about traders - I had one coming in, but he rfused ALL goods I wanted to trade, even the "standards" like firewood, tools etc... all my goods on stock were greyed out.

I dimly remember reading sth about it, but can't find it... now this question came up on the other site as well, and I can't answer it - so, can you clue me in again if there are certain restrictions, like if any particular trader will not accept the "standard" goods?

Tia
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on January 12, 2017, 08:00:36 AM
If you´re playing the North; it must be the merchant with seeds and animals. He takes nothing except coins. (Just a small comment: firewood is no "standard" trade good, if you play the North, the woodchopper only makes a small profit. Most other goods are much better)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2017, 08:06:43 AM
Yes, it must be a seed merchant. They want cash. I made a note in the Wiki.

www.banishedventures.com/wiki/tradingpost/
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 12, 2017, 08:47:44 AM
Thanks again for the heads-up...  :)


Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2017, 08:06:43 AMI made a note in the Wiki.
That's good, I keep sending people there  ;)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 25, 2017, 12:18:49 PM
Playing a round of 4.5 with "Nomads"...

Good fun to start with a whole load of people... needs some re-adjustment (again), I had some difficulties to get the first gen housed while they can still make kids... LOL

Anyway, some things that I'm not sure about -

* I build Pastures for RedK's milk cows - but a 10x20 is only good for 5 animals (instead of 10)?
Is that by design? If so - urghhh...  :-\

* the Red Dairy has no inventory icons for milk?
Should I put it above the North? Or is it a known issue?

* I would have expected Nomads to be uneducated?
I did not check at first, but 3, 4 years in - they all seem educated...

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: RedKetchup on January 25, 2017, 05:40:00 PM
the north has milk LivestockMilkyCow.rsc , probably the milk icon missing comes for it.

cause there is a testing from red creamery 1.1 done 5 mins ago :

screenshot : all icons there
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Abandoned on January 25, 2017, 08:33:16 PM
I had the problem with the missing milk icon when I used red creamery in the North, I thought the problem was connected to the two different black and white cows.  I had the red creamery loaded after the North.  Next time I will load red creamery before the North.  It looks so nice with the North's red houses. Your town looks really nice @Paeng

I also thought several times that I had an educated nomad, very strange.  I was a little busy struggling with tool production and a bad apple orchard so never investigated the problem further.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2017, 03:05:20 AM
Quote from: Paeng
* I build Pastures for RedK's milk cows - but a 10x20 is only good for 5 animals (instead of 10)?
Is that by design? If so - urghhh...  :-\

Yes, I made changes to livestock and also to the dairy cow to integrate it in the Nordic food production if NMT is loaded. The original cow is extremely overpowered in the North. While crops are limited by climate you can spam pastures and take away the challenge by playing as cowboy. The idea was to increase the required area of cows to reduce the productivity in cold climate in a logical way. They need more space to get enough food over the year. Cattle needs 33 tiles instead of 20 to produce 160 beef and it is specialized in meat production. The dairy cow produces 160 beef too because its defined in the beef template. By the additional milk it just replaces the understated cattle and that would be a pity imo. A way to let them produce less meat was to increase the required area to 40. The milk makes it more productive but only if further processed in a creamery and the dairy cow is more expensive to purchase. So both animals have their place in game and players can think of their strategy. For 10 dairy cows you need a 20 x 20 pasture. You can build it until 24 x 24. The alternative is 12 cattle in a 20 x 20 for more meat but without milk production. I know, its unusual to build bigger pastures and to see a smaller herd but just a part of the Nordic environment.

I have one thought to it. Maybe its a better way to lower the beef production of the dairy cow via slower breeding. There are params to change offspring and ageing. If it works the cow could get 33 tiles too.

Quote from: Paeng
* the Red Dairy has no inventory icons for milk?
Should I put it above the North? Or is it a known issue?

Its the milky icon bug in the Nordic mod. I though I have fixed it. Will be in the next update. I think you get the item with creamery on top but Im not sure what happens with the balance. The Nordic milk is inedible with trade value of 1-2 like fish but does not come by merchants. And a cow gives 4 milk per month.

If interesting... with the values from above it means in theory 960 beef + 24 leather by 1 worker from a 20 x 20 pasture breeding cattle. And 800 beef + 480 milk +  20 leather by breeding dairy cows. More food but the milk has to be processed. Without a creamery the cattle is more productive.

Quote from: Paeng
* I would have expected Nomads to be uneducated?
I did not check at first, but 3, 4 years in - they all seem educated...

Actually nomads are always uneducated or there is something in the core game to make a few educated. I would like to have educated nomads or at least 50/50. But no variables for it in the modkit.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 26, 2017, 04:02:49 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2017, 03:05:20 AMA way to let them produce less meat was to increase the required area to 40.

I don't mind the lower productivity, as I'm not into number-crunching, so that's just a matter of getting used to...  :)

What bugs me about the smaller pasture is that I cannot split a herd with only 5 animals and am forced to build at least 20x20 - big property in e.g. a mountainous area... I'm not into huge "ranches" but smaller agri units, more like homesteads... plus I much prefer friesians to the ugly red beef, so I'm super happy with the (stand-alone) Red Creamery...  ::)

* might make another note for the wiki...)


Quote from: RedKetchup on January 25, 2017, 05:40:00 PMthe north has milk LivestockMilkyCow.rsc , probably the milk icon missing comes for it.

Yeah, I thought so - just didn't want to change load order and upset the balancing... But thanks for checking  :)


QuoteActually nomads are always uneducated

Yeah... I was just not sure whether your starting condition really starts off with "true" nomads at all, or if they are regular "citizens"...  ;)  For more difficulty I'd prefer them to be uneducated.



Another question -

I put in Tany's wonderful little flax chain - the Gatherer shows up with "coin" limit... but seems to work fine (tried it above and below the North)... how does that relate, and do I need to expect trouble from that?
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2017, 05:06:20 AM
Quote from: Paeng
I'm super happy with the (stand-alone) Red Creamery...

Yes, the red creamery looks very nice and fits well in the North. I did not know that it also brings the friesian cow. I will look at it and add it to the recommended mods. Also will make a wiki term for the cow.

Quote from: Paeng
For more difficulty I'd prefer them to be uneducated.

Haha, I like this idea. The nomads start condition should be changed into uneducated people. A big advantage to have about 40 people vs. the disadvantage of uneducated workers for a new interesting option and consistent to the term of Banished nomads. I think I cannot resist to add this idea. Thanks. :)

Quote from: Paeng
I put in Tany's wonderful little flax chain - the Gatherer shows up with "coin" limit... but seems to work fine (tried it above and below the North)... how does that relate, and do I need to expect trouble from that?

I like Tanys "wild mods" too and I think about to make it work as optional add-ons. It's difficult because her resources use trees as spawn point and the North too. So with Tany mods on top you lost the specific vegetation and gatherable firewood. Below you don't get her plants. So are you sure there is wild flax in your forest? The flag of flax is a problem too. In the North it has to be a material because textile is reserved for money. Probably your export merchants will bring you some flowers.^^

The flax chain I want in the North but actually as crop. And in a different way to produce linseed as additional product.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 27, 2017, 04:02:41 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2017, 05:06:20 AMI did not know that it also brings the friesian cow.

Hmmm... now I'm not sure what kind of cow it is exactly - in any case, there is a black and white milk cow,... maybe better check with RedK what kind it is exactly  :)


Quotenomads. I think I cannot resist to add this idea.

Oh my... what did I do?!   ;D


QuoteSo with Tany mods on top you lost the specific vegetation and gatherable firewood.

Hmmm, I just checked - I have Tany's mod on top and I get the chain fine (wild growing flax, flax gatherer and linen weaver), and I can still collect firewood from the forest... what do you mean by specific vegetation? One difference I notice are some flowering bushes, but they are not too distracting...

Also there is a flax crop, trader goods (flax and cultured flax, I presume there is a seed too) - I did not get into those yet, as I'm pretty content with the output from the gatherer and making some linen for export. All in all I find this little mod really "round"... including the nice blue model   :)

There is also an option to gather all kinds of wild food - oats, rose hips, plus the usual berries and herbs etc... I must admit that I hardly use these options though... maybe in the very early stages, but after a while it just gets tedious and I usually forget it... same with the gatherable firewood, there is so little and it's spread so far across the map that I rather depend on a proper chopper. Again, this may be useful for the very tough survival starts of the Jack&Jill type - but that's not really my game, so these things play a very small role in my towns...

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: RedKetchup on January 27, 2017, 04:53:58 AM
cattle is .... vanilla brown cattle

NMT has "Cow" black and white
CC has "Fresian cow" which is black and white ( i called mine cow they called it fresian)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 27, 2017, 05:49:07 AM
And if imported in the North it is called Dairy Cow. I like this model. The cattle looks a bit too chunky. I thought about making a Galloway from it. For even more variety in cattle breeding.^^

Specific vegetation in the Nordic forest means a lot of blueberries but no roots and onions under pines (only under birches outside of the working forest). This is overwritten by the flora mods if on top and the reason of your rare firewood. I think, it drops only under birches in your game.

The gatherable firewood I ignore too in my test games, except of the start. Later it's the job of the gatherers hut and they do a good job there in winter when no wild food is available. The collecting tool is probably more a nice to have for most players. Btw, deadwood spawns mushrooms in summer. So, lazy guys can have a bit more mushrooms in their forest. :)

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 27, 2017, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 27, 2017, 05:49:07 AMThis is overwritten by the flora mods if on top and the reason of your rare firewood. I think, it drops only under birches in your game.

So what would numbers look like approximately? Here a shot from my current game for comparison...


Oh, and another thing - Rye and Rye Flour both have the same price (4)... shouldn't the (processed) flour be more expensive to buy / fetch a better price when sold?

Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Nilla on January 28, 2017, 02:11:34 AM
That's not a typical menu from a Nordic forest. A gatherer in the North collects much more firewood, more berries, less mushrooms and much less roots and onions.

But if you like it this way; why not. I like the flora from @tanypredator too.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 28, 2017, 03:21:19 AM
Quote from: Nilla on January 28, 2017, 02:11:34 AMmore berries

That's what I miss most, for my liquor production...  ;)

But for now I don't want to lose Tany's flora chain - gathering flax to weave linen is more fun (additional buildings etc.) than collecting firewood, which can be done in other ways (choppers, sawmill)...  :)
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 28, 2017, 03:26:34 AM
A few numbers to compare in the picture. :)

And the same price for grain and flour is not bad, I think. If flour would be more expensive it would be annoying to auto purchase it and for grain it really makes sense to use this function. The mill makes a good profit by increasing food. If there would be a factor of a higher price in addition, it would become a strange cash cow. And actually 100 rye are more worth than 100 flour if imported because I can increase the "nutritive value" of it in a mill. At least it is not less valuable.
Title: Re: The North - Help...
Post by: Paeng on January 28, 2017, 03:44:35 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 28, 2017, 03:26:34 AMA few numbers to compare

Thanks  :)


QuoteIf there would be a factor of a higher price in addition, it would become a strange cash cow.

No, would not want that... I had thought maybe a raise by 1 (grain=4, flour=5), just to indicate that there is a price for processing.

Well, I guess to  increase the "nutritive value" of it in a mill basically works the same, it's just harder to see/learn/understand...  ;D