More mod testing- Nillas tiny Estes -and its followers

[Nilla]

Can't help it! Got to write! It has been a "bad habit" of mine.

I have started a new game, testing new mods.

I promised Jamie to give his trading-mod a try. It is a mod that really changes the gameplay in a game with much trade.  So I will have a lot to tell about this.

I also got the weird idea to test a tiny "swampy" map. (Neckcen, Map Generator)  Look at the map! Not much buildable land here. If I want a population of more than 200, I really do have to rely on trade, not much space for forests or farms!

As a small compensation for the lack of buildable land, I will also test the GimmeCat, Flatten Terrain Tool.

I want to try Slinks Snug Houses and Small Markets. I also wanted to try her Brewery. As I read in the Forum, there were some conflicts with the apiary, but also as I noticed; with the snug houses. I loaded it anyhow (not all conflicts have to generate a crash) but I had a crash, as I started the game again, after my first save. I have many mods loaded, so it is hard to say, if the crash came from the brewery, but after I inactivated it, there has been no more crashes.

I have a lot of other mods activated as well. I tell you if I notice anything special about the ones I use.

So I started the game real slow. Built a fisher, a gatherer, a school, a forester (first only to plant. In the beginning, logs will be a problem) a woodcutter and slowly; one by one, some houses. On the first picture there is still one family without any roof over its head. I built a bridge to the land east. I am so sorry, but I have to clear-cut the area, need all these beautiful trees.

Second picture; First trading port is built. Now I am waiting for the first new tradesman.  Everyone have homes. I even built some more for the kids that left school. If you see the footprints on the right side of the picture; it is a forester and a bridge. Got to recultivate the wood. I am planning to modify that small island north of the settlement to build a fishing dock, must be the perfect location.

The first boat came. In fact I saw it coming, so I let it arrive several times, to investigate the different kind of tradesmen. Anyhow I bought some walnutseeds. It is a bit odd that proteins are worth 2-4 and even more odd, that beans are counted as a protein. I am not sure I like the consequences of this, but we will see how it works.

I have built the fishing dock. Picture 3. But I couldn't understand why it didn't produce much. I watched the fishers for a while. They refused to use the chart I built, just for them! So I learned something new, they can only use one side of the cart to load/unload things. I built it the wrong way and as there was so little space on that island, there was no access to chart. I rebuilt it and now it works fine. 2 Fishermen producing 1500 fish. I had hoped for more, because in my single-worker-game. One fisherman produced up to 990 fish.

I built 2 greenhouses in order to sell seedlings. The wood is not so profitable in this mod.

The main problem is stone. I will use the last of it from up north, to built one or if I am lucky two more trading ports. Need more raw-material -tradesmen. I just read that Jamie has modified his mod, so there will be another one bringing stones, iron and logs. I think this is a good choice. In the version I play 1 of 5 brings stone, in the updated 2 of 6. That seems better balanced.

I  built some more years yesterday but obviously I forgot to make any new screens. Anyhow stones was the problem , it slowed everything down. Couldn't build any graveyard, couldn't build any townhall , only a few houses. And I certainly will not spoil some of the valuable ground by building a quarry. Just got a load of stones as I stopped, will use them well. Probably build a fruitmarket and a brewer. I have some pears and have ordered appleseeds. Ale is even more valuable in this mod, than in the original version. I am not sure I like that!

I have decided to go on with this version of the mod. I like  the start and I suppose I can live with this slow speed for a while.

[Nilla]

Just opened a bottle of a Southafrican Red Wine, so I'll better write a little bit about what I did this afternoon, before the wine has a too big influence on my writing. We had a real grey and rainy Sunday. My husband and our son, were building some special furniture for the new flat of the son, out in our barn. So I spent the whole afternoon alone at my computer, playing Banished, testing Jamie's trading mod and some others, on my tiny map.

I built 5 trading ports and the traders were friendly and brought stones enough to build a fruit market, a couple of breweries, a town hall and a graveyard. They also made it possible to start to build the snug houses from @slink. I do like them, the size 3*5, perfect. The fact that the snow only falls on one half of the roof, doesn't bother me so much, as long as they are built in a row. The wind might blow in a way, that makes only one half of the roof covered with snow. But it looks a bit weird, if you build them on opposite sides of a road. I don't think the wind blows from one direction on one side of the street and from another on the other.

The color of the fruit market is also a mystery to me. I made 4 screenshots. Can anyone explain this?

3. and 4. picture, rain
The color and the details of the market are perfect, fits excellent to the surrounding buildings. The breweries look a bit ugly , but the market  front and back looks great.

5. picture sunshine, 6. picture snow
The fruit market is very dark in sunshine. In winter with snow, it is also too dark and the back of the building, not the roof, is white.

Finally in the year of 26 (!) I got my first few nomads.

So what about my main task; the trade mod?

Cannot really say all too much yet. So far I am almost selfsufficient on food. I need some grain for the diversity , but it is almost too easy to trade fish, nuts, beans and meat for grain. (fish, nuts, beans worth 2, meat 4, grain 1) I also buy some vegetables (also worth 1).

I have one thought; @JamieIdle , it seems to me that you are trying to make it easier to build an economy on trade. Your ambition is, that every tradesman has a value, has something to sell, that is interesting  in each part of the game.

What about those "Finished Goods Tradesmen? The only interesting thing, that I will buy from them is coal (? why finshed goods??) and as long as I don't have enough raw-materials, tools. Why not put this one and the "new" general goods tradesman together? Then it will be 5 different tradesmen again. But now with 2 of 5 bringing stone, iron and logs.

A consequence of increasing the value of the proteins, is that the "Pasture-goods-tradesman" is getting quite uninteresting, as soon as you have bought the animals you want. If you want to make him interesting, you have to use some other mods. Milk and honey; are still worth 1. I have just built 2 creameries and will buy some more milk, to make cheese and sell it.  (Yogurt is more profitable, but also needs berries, and I want to buy as much apples as I can, to make the more profitable ale. So cheese will do, still profitable enough)

Now I want to play, more comes tomorrow.

[Nilla]

Sorry to say, I have finished this game. Not because I wanted to, but because it keeps on crashing. As I wrote in another thread, I first thought, there was a conflict between this mod and the Red Ketchup Warehouse.  But after having a little chat with Jamie this afternoon, it is probably because I downloaded the new version of the trading- mod to this game, that I started with the first version. First it worked well with no crashes for several hours. So I didn't suspect it was because of this.

So I must apology to Jamie and Red Ketchup. It was my fault. Your mods will probably work fine together. 

I really like the idea of the trading-mod. But Jamie, I am sorry to say. I do not like all the changed trade-values. I like some. Others I don't really like, but they are still acceptable. I really don't want to say this, but I am an honest person. Hope you are not too angry with me or disappointed. Don't forget; it is only my humble opinion: Some changes are so bad, that I think, it destroys the balance and the diversity of the game.

Hard words! Let me explain what I mean. Normally if you want to criticize someone/something with good and bad properties, you start with the good things, but in this case;  I will do the opposite;  I will start with the worse.

Beans, worth 2 - consequence: All other farming will be economic uninteresting. Why farm anything else, if you can get 2 corn, wheat, potatoes, pepper...... for 1 bean? The only reason, it looks nicer.

Nuts, worth 2 - consequence: About the same as beans. Fruit-orchards will be uninteresting and also normal farming. Specially if you use the popular Better Fields Mod, where the productivity of orchards, equals the productivity of fields.

These two are the real "badguys". The reason that I would not use this mod.

I don't like that ale is worth 10. My opinion is that even the normal value 8, is a bit overpowered. But I could live with it. It does not destroy the game, just making it easier.

I don't like that meat is worth 4. The profits of a pasture will be too high, specially for cattle, if you use the popular RK Creamery Mod. It would also have the odd consequence, that if you buy a cow, slaughters it at once and sells the meat and leather, you make a profit. I could live with it , but 3 is better.

Now to the good changes, Yes Jamie, I really mean there are good changes too!!!!! 

Firewood, worth 3. Firewood is normally as overpowered as ale (worth 8 ), the yearly profit for one plant (wood worth 4) is about the same. 3 is better.

Fish, worth 2. If you decrease the profit of the firewood, you need something else to finance expensive seeds and animals at the beginning of a game. Fish is a good choice. Unless you find a really excellent position, a fisher produce considerably less than a farmer or a gatherer. So the game will not get unbalanced. There is also a limit of how many good fishingdocks you can build, especially in a game with much trade. 

Tools and clothing - a bit higher value than before. If you want to build a big trading economy, you need something more to sell than only ale. If firewood is less interesting, it is good, that clothing and tools are made a bit better. The profit is still far from ale, but surely good enough to be interesting.

I cannot really say much about increasing the value of eggs from 2 to 3. I seldom sell eggs, maybe it would be more interesting as a trading good, with the value 3.

The tradesmen

First I must say it was a good choice to let more than one tradesman sell raw materials. I always buy stones at the beginning of a game, even if I use a bigger map. Here on this tiny map it was very inconvenient at the beginning with just 1 of 5. But I think it would be better to go back to only 5 tradesmen. First as I wrote yesterday; the "Finished Goods Trades Man" sells very little you want to buy. In a larger game I suppose he will be the annoying one, you send away without buying much. No problem to let the "General Goods Trades Man" take over these products. Another reason I find 5 tradesmen better than 6, is that in this mod, there will be only one tradesman who sells fruit (apple to produce ale). In a large economy 1 of 6 selling apples, might give some problems, not having enough apples. 1 of 5 would probably be better. (Unless you use some mods and makes ale from pumpkins and honey as well)

As I also said yesterday the Pasture Goods Trades Man will be quite uninteresting with the higher tradevalue for all "old" proteins after you bought enough animals unless you use some other mods. At least as long as you have some room to have some farms with beans and orchards with nuts. (And that is normally a long time. In my largest trading game 4300 Bannies on a medium map, I still had some farms and pastures).

One last thing: these want- and buy- isn't very important, as it is now. I once saw one tradesmen only paying 2 for firewood. The other things that they not want, only buy, are not really interesting to sell. So it wouldn't make much change, if you took it away. Most tradesmen in this mod want all the things, that are interesting to sell. It makes it a bit easier than in original.

SUMMARY:
Change the value of beans and nuts back to 1, than it is a good mod
Change the value of ale back to 8 (or maybe even lower, but 7 is not a nice number to count with and 6 might be a bit too low) and for meat back to 3. Give the stuff from the finished goods trades man to the general good tradesman so there are 5 different tradesmen. Then it will be a great mod.

I haven't written much about the game and the other mods I tried. I will do that later. Than I will also show some screenshots.

[Pangaea]

Thanks for that very thorough review @Nilla. It's great that you are honest, even if some words may seem harsh. It's important we know how it is to play with these mods, and it's important that the author sees it, so he has a chance to make changes. If we all pretend everything is great, that won't happen, so thanks

[RedKetchup]

SUMMARY:
Change the value of beans and nuts back to 1, than it is a good mod
Change the value of ale back to 8 (or maybe even lower, but 7 is not a nice number to count with and 6 might be a bit too low) and for meat back to 3. Give the stuff from the finished goods trades man to the general good tradesman so there are 5 different tradesmen. Then it will be a great mod.

Question: how many goods the general good merchant would end up ? cause the main first goal here is spliting the different goods to more merchants to fix the crashes that was still happening lately with the actual boat fix mods. I thought it was the main goal and main purpose of this new fix.

[Nilla]

He didn´t sell so many things, because he didn´t bring any food. By the way, he sold most of the things the "Finished Goods Tradesman sold as well. So I don´t think, there would be any crashes, because of that.

[Nilla]

I have tested the second version of Jamie's trading mod. I will tell you a bit of how it worked. After my bad review of the first version, I think I owe him that. The second version is much better. I started a game, this time on a medium map. Played it 20-30 years to a population of 600-700 until I stopped the game.

@JamieIdle set goals for this mod.

1. Provide an alternative to current boat fix/trade mods.  ------( As far as I can see it, he solved the first issue in another way, that works well with the original tradesmen)

2. Ensure that all trade boats are useful throughout the game------ yes
I bought something from every tradesman all the time (Except from the crop tradesman (selling seeds, vegetables and grain) After I bought some seeds, I had enough farms to support the population with vegetable and grain. In a full-trade-game, of cause, I would have bought a lot from him)

3. Increase the variety of profitable trade goods------- yes
I have never traded so many goods before, very nice.
I traded ale, cheese, seedling, wool clothes, iron tools, meat, fish, mushrooms, books and at the beginning also firewood and herbs

4. Reduce reliance on Ale and Firewood as the primary trade goods------- yes
The price for ale and wood is lower in this mod, for other goods higher (see the pictures).  There is still a good profit, to sell these goods. Ale was still my main-trades-product . But there are also other goods, almost as profitable.

5. Create a mod ideally suited for those that like to build trade based economies-----maybe
Another change in this mod is, that after you have reached a certain population (400?), the merchants arrive more often. At this time I had 6 trading ports. I almost felt assaulted by all those tradesmen. After I "micromanaged" their arrival, so they all arrived at the same time and starting the automatic trade, I didn't feel so stressed anymore. But now I was flooded with apples, milk, iron and wool.

I stopped the game. I could have managed this too, by buying less from each merchant, but as I went on thinking; How would this work in a big ? I thought; no, it wouldn't work.

Why? Isn't it good if the merchants arrive often, bringing a lot of goods?

As I played my large trading games (the biggest 4000 population), I had 2 problems.
The most important, and the reason I stopped the game, was that it was getting really slow and boring, as it grew bigger. As a large number of tradesmen arrived at the same time, the game was getting even slower than before (I think @irrelevant noticed this too in his Sink Mill). Merchants arriving more often -> bigger problems -> game is "unplayable" slow earlier.

I also had some logistic problems. The traders hadn't always time to empty all breweries and to fill all trading ports and the vendors hadn't always time to fill all marketplaces. I couldn't always buy everything the merchant brought. Tradesmen arriving more often, would make this problem more significant.

This were my thoughts yesterday as I stopped playing.

But I have been thinking a bit more.

Maybe this isn't so bad after all. I only have to change the approach. With merchants arriving often, always bringing good stuff, you do not need so many trading ports. If you do not have so many trading ports, there will not be so many boats arriving, making the game so slow.
The logistic problems remains. They have nothing to do with this mod. But problems are there to be solved. So I will give this mod another chance.

I also tested @RedKetchup´s colorful little houses in this game, very nice looking. If you want to, I think a settlement could grow a little bit faster, with the possibility to have 4 children in one house.

I see now, I didn´t make many screenshots, but at least I can show one early, year 13 and one later, year 28, with a couple of new tradesmen. The zip contains the mod and the descriptions of the merchants and the new prices.

[Nilla]

AS I said I will give @JamieIdle´s trading mod another chance. I am testing the second version of the mod.(tradesmen arriving often, most of the price changes)  I am also testing more mods in a long-term game. Primary @slink´s small markets and @RedKetchup´s colorful houses, I am building only those houses right from the start (trying to keep them discreet brownish).

I use my favorite mods. Do not really have to test them; the Creamery (the latest version)(As you might expect, @RedKetchup, I liked the new version, you said where ugly  better, but I do respect you as a creator of these mods and if you say, this is the version you like, I will use it).  Other favorites are the Better Fields mod and the Decorative Items. 

I use a number of more mods, you might see them on the map, but I don't use the apiary, The reason is that honey belongs to all different kind of food (fruit, vegetables, grain, protein) and this do mess thing up. 

I will tell you a little to each picture

1.
I have built 3 trading ports and will try to mange with these 3 as long as I can. I trade a lot of things. I'll show you later.
I will use the general stores to support most houses (black). I will use a lot of specialized markets (red), with production buildings around them and some special stores, such as the root cellar (blue).

2
Market area. I am not always so skilled, building the second floor on the small houses. It looks weird,  I know, @RedKetchup  not your fault, entirely mine.

3
This is the same problem as you get with honey. This version of the trade mod defines beans as protein and vegetables (still worth 1). I want to use the meat market for milk and locate creameries around it. I had to stop growing beans, because the meat markets were filled with beans and there were not much space left for milk. (some meat, cheese and nuts doesn't matter much)

4
I also had some other unexpected productivity-problems. Look at these two breweries. Built at the same time. The brewers both live close enough. There are apples in the root cellar. What is wrong with the rightone?