World of Banished

Conversations => General Discussion => Topic started by: Goblin Girl on July 28, 2018, 01:33:33 PM

Title: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 28, 2018, 01:33:33 PM
There are many modded markets available, some with smaller circles and some with larger.  Some are general, and some are specialized in one way or another.  Which do you prefer, and why?
At first when the huge CC central market came out, I used it.  But eventually I stopped, because it seemed inefficient to me, in terms of how far the Bannies had to travel to get their supplies.  Now I most frequently use the vanilla market, or the market puzzle.  The one specialized market I really like is the log merchant.  It solves the problem of having the stockpile near the sawmill running out of logs.
But what am I missing?  Is there an advantage to giant-radius markets that I haven't thought of?  What about all the specialized ones such as a protein market and a fruit market?  Do those actually help or hurt the efficiency and health of the Bannies?
And finally, in terms of how you lay out your town, do you prioritize putting houses or businesses close to the market?  And why do you make the choice you do?
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 28, 2018, 01:56:12 PM
i use a mixture of mods both 1.06 and 1.07.there are drawbacks to it,such as the log carts will store coal. some depends on what looks good more than function. i use the nordic wharehouse and SLINK's industrial to move stone.the specialized market puzzle from KID,i do use the grain cart to supply mills.i think the efficiency of the mill is better that way than just adding 2 workers to the mill.in a heavey production area,i will use the industrial market to store most items.back it up with a EB farmers market for food and some sheds to store odd items that the older industrial plaza misses.

      the larger the radius the more houses it affects.houses outside that raduis can take items from the closest barn.to compensate for that i try to scatter laborers around the map by building an extra house or 2 in each area.if the area needs 10 workers .i'll place 6 or 7 houses just so there are extra workers.these laborers will drop items and save the working bannies a trip. i also place a wood cutter,blacksmith,and tailor in each area. then the only market really needed is a food vendor to help with health.

       watching different market vendors can be interesting.not all act the same. some will idle more than others.some are helpful to the other bannies more than others. some have been known to go collect items as workers cleared land.each has its own personality.it is tedious to take time to follow them thugh.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 28, 2018, 02:31:46 PM
Does using the grain market cause health problems for Bannies living nearby?  I mean, don't they just fill their houses with bread and then start getting sick? 
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: zak4862 on July 28, 2018, 02:33:12 PM
Hi GG!
Personaly I tried allmost all of them. FromCC to Toms Red Cottage North market store. In the end I went back to vanilla. Why...?
Well some of the markets simply have to much stuff in there for my taste - while on the other side one or two of them dont accept certain items because
there are so many mods which are bringing new products in the game.(food,clothes,construction...etc.)So, I decided that for me vanilla is
the most acceptable and simple.
Usually I build a market in front of trading station and I am putting close by also a barn and a big stockpile.Sometimes the trader comes unexpected bringing the
good stuff.And if you dont have enough trading stuff in station - the traders (Bannies) will bring it in very fast. For me that is practical and very effective.
I always put businesses in this area, also just because of practical reasons - Bannies dont have to go far for materials and to bring the products in.
    For market radius I dont care much how big is it, because while playing I have many times checked houses storages. In close by or far houses.And from my experience
there was allmost zero difference in homes supplies.
  So, I like it all this stuff concetrated in one area - make it practical, effective and simple.
        Best regards    zak4862   :)

P.S. I forget one thing. I always build extra barns on the edge of radius.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: smurphys7 on July 28, 2018, 03:03:25 PM
Quote from: Goblin Girl on July 28, 2018, 02:31:46 PM
Does using the grain market cause health problems for Bannies living nearby?  I mean, don't they just fill their houses with bread and then start getting sick? 

Yes.

When citizens are looking for a good, or a food, or whatever, they go to the nearest Market with that good.  When citizens are looking for food and end up at a specialized food Market they will only acquire that one type of food.  The citizen will only go to the one market.  Putting a Fruit, Vegetable, Grain and Protein Market all next to each other will NOT allow citizens to have each food group.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 28, 2018, 03:49:31 PM
in theory, yes that is correct. i didn't se health issues with it though. it wouldn't affect many houses as a main food market was near by. the mill would pull the grain and empty the small grain market. the amount of food in the cart at any 1 time wouldn't be enough to stock a house for a family. that also would force the house to find more food elsewhere.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 28, 2018, 06:02:47 PM
Lots of stuff was developed at players requests.
The modders and the players alike did not really know the outcome of some modded stuff.
It was requested, it seemed possible and it looked all okay.

While some separated markets can be a good thing it also can have some drawbacks it seems.
A player ask for a market what only store grain so he/she can put it right next to a mill who mills it into flour.

The idea is good but because of not knowing the side effects it seems that some bannies in houses nearby only had grain to eat because it was the closest market what only had grain.
Same can happen if a fruit only market is placed next to a tavern with some houses nearby.

Because everything goes by flags it is hard to make a specialized market work really well.
I understand that players want for example a special Hunters market nearby the hunter but because venison is protein all other protein can get stored there as well so no guarantee there will be venison in that market.

With so many more resources added to the game it only became more problematic for storage/markets.
20 flags (With 2 unused since we got them and why they are never put to use is beyond me) have to cover all the resources.
Some flags have only 1 item so are easy to manage but others have tons of them like some food groups and so it can happen that a certain market gets filled with stuff from the same flag but not that one resource the player set that market up for.

It is one of those things I think (And I am part of it) that we want more, more and more stuff but sometimes not think good enough about certain side effects it can cause.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 28, 2018, 08:56:44 PM
Quote from: embx61 on July 28, 2018, 06:02:47 PM
The modders and the players alike did not really know the outcome of some modded stuff.
It was requested, it seemed possible and it looked all okay.
I remember those heady days!  I still love this game four years later, and I play at least a couple times a week. 

What you said about some flags having only one item might well be a part of it.  The log merchant really improves the efficiency of a saw mill because logs don't share their flag with anything else.  I guess a tool market that only held logs, iron, and coal might be worth trying too, for the same reason.  I think there probably is one, I just haven't paid attention.  The clothing and textile market I don't like because it fills up with finished clothing eventually, which keeps clothing out of other markets in town, and also doesn't improve the efficiency of a nearby tailor.  Hmm.  I should check to see if there's a textile market that doesn't also hold finished clothing.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: RedKetchup on July 28, 2018, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: embx61 on July 28, 2018, 06:02:47 PM
20 flags (With 2 unused since we got them and why they are never put to use is beyond me)

they are in wait someone has a brilliant idea. we wanted to keep those for this instead to use those for something that could easily and intelligently be inside another flag.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Nilla on July 29, 2018, 04:07:14 AM
Markets is an interesting, complicated component in Banished. Personally I usually build a lot of markets. I prefer smaller markets, that hold all consumers goods only, close to homes. For health reasons I never use specialized markets for food but often other specialized markets for production.

I seldom use big markets. It looks like many people think, if a house is located inside a market circle, Bannis  who live there will get their supply from it. But that's not true. The radius has no influence on, where people will go to get what they need. As far as I can see, it's only one more happiness radius. People will go to the nearest place, market or barn: If they live inside a large market radius but outside the circle of a small closer market, they will never use the large market and if a barn is closer, they will go there. (Unless the market is only a few tiles further away.)

I'm sure that there is no perfect way, to manage the distribution of goods in Banished. But that's also one more thing, that makes the game interesting. Again, there's no right way to go. Can anyone say, what is better;  a very efficient woodcutter and a vendor at a specialized market, who carries the logs to him or two much less efficient woodcutter on different places, who must walk all over the map, to get their logs themselves?
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 29, 2018, 04:54:58 AM
Quote from: Nilla on July 29, 2018, 04:07:14 AM
Can anyone say, what is better;  a very efficient woodcutter and a vendor at a specialized market, who carries the logs to him or two much less efficient woodcutter on different places, who must walk all over the map, to get their logs themselves?
If I can keep up with firewood production with only a single sawmill, I prefer that.  At least, I do until the point in the game where I have two or more separate population centers.  At that point having a less efficient supply of firewood, but that is closer to where people live?  I think that's better.  I think.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: rkelly17 on July 29, 2018, 08:23:23 AM
I was one of those who asked for specialized markets in the early days of modding and @slink responded with four, I think it was, that split all market products among them. The main reason at the time was I was getting bored with making all my village centers the same. With the huge selection now available that is certainly no longer a problem!  :)  I have generally settled down to a few that each serves a particular purpose. For my first market of a new settlement I use either the small market that comes with CC or @Elfecutioner's general store with graphics by @RedKetchup, either of which is easy to build and supplies the needs of my early pioneers. Later in the game I often use the small market for a mining/smelting village which I tend to build a bit away from other villages and towns (I think of my settlements as a collection of villages and towns in a river valley). For many towns I use the CC Rural Market, which is most like vanilla market. It does the job and can be landscaped with a neighboring park or some such. For my "main" towns I use the CC Central Market because it looks more like a main town--in other words, my choice is based on aesthetics, not functionality. For farm areas I use the Old Town market because it has a small footprint and large catchment which allow more farms in the circle. The houses of the farms are usually nearer the market with the fields occupying the edges of the circle, so the inefficiency of the larger circle doesn't bother me. I will often use @RedKetchup's 3-story Medieval Houses in my main towns, so if I might build some of the Medieval vendors, though not for their functions but because I like the look of the lower floors. Again, it is more aesthetics than function. Lately I have building the Mission and I might put a cart vendor  or two in the middle of the square formed by the church and houses (California mission style--must honor my homeland). Again that is more about aesthetics than function.  Conclusion: For me which market to use is about both function and aesthetics. A market should suit its surroundings and add to the overall plan of the whole map.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: rkelly17 on July 29, 2018, 08:29:09 AM
Quote from: Goblin Girl on July 29, 2018, 04:54:58 AM
Quote from: Nilla on July 29, 2018, 04:07:14 AM
Can anyone say, what is better;  a very efficient woodcutter and a vendor at a specialized market, who carries the logs to him or two much less efficient woodcutter on different places, who must walk all over the map, to get their logs themselves?
If I can keep up with firewood production with only a single sawmill, I prefer that.  At least, I do until the point in the game where I have two or more separate population centers.  At that point having a less efficient supply of firewood, but that is closer to where people live?  I think that's better.  I think.

Interesting. I build my basic woodcutters right next to the foresters--source of logs right next door! Then I build one near the agricultural trading post because that is where I sell firewood for seeds and animals. Then I build a combination of woodcutters and charcoal producers (stacksburners in CC?) near the larger centers of population. Since I play on large and extra large maps I am generally clear cutting somewhere, so the dispersed fuel producers generally have a good supply. I also notice that pretty much all of my markets carry logs. I keep thinking I should try a sawmill or two and then promptly forget to build them.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 29, 2018, 09:35:58 AM
RKELLY,thank you for asking for those SLINK markets. those have been handy over the years and i still use some.way back, that was the only way to store stone other than a pile.  i wish we had SLINK or the coding. i do wish the texture could be upgraded but leave the functioning or storage code as it is. then add another marklet that would store just 1.07 flags.

        1 worry to firewood is the market will pull it all when the firewood is low.the outer areas will be short while anything near the market is well stocked.a wood chopper out in those far off areas will cut and supply houses nearby.this helps balance where the firewood is.even though the amount of firewood is low,the houses will show stocked.less chance of anyone freezing.whereas if all the firewood was taken by the market,those outer areas would start to get cold.

      SMURPHYS brought up a good point a few months ago.the more variety of items the market stores the less it stores food.the vendor is busy tryihng to locate the odd items and running around instead of stocking what is available. some markets seem to stock items in different orders.so 1 market might be trying to stock ale or logs before food.another might be stocking textiles before food. smaller markets and specialized help avoid that issue.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 10:37:11 AM
The coding is easy. Just a question of setting the right flags and that's all.
This are the flags according to slink.

Meat Market which stocks proteins
Fruit Market
Vegetable Market
Grain Market
General Store which stocks firewood, clothing, tools, and herbs
Industrial Market which stocks wool, leather, iron, logs, stone, and coal <---- Wool and leather are the textiles flag.

Version 2 - Adds three markets including:Farm Market which stocks all edible items except proteins ---> protein was later added.
Smithy Market which stocks logs, iron, and coal  --> Maybe need to have the custom3 (Ind Fuel) as well. <-- I have a market like this in the Market set called Blacksmith market and have the tool flag added.
Tailoring Market which stock wool and leather -----> Maybe need Custom2 (Processed textiles) as well.

Those are made before the added 10 new flags.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 29, 2018, 11:30:54 AM
i don't mean to argue with you EB ,but you say easy from a modders point of view. from a players point of view though,i have seen that all markets aren't the same. the vendors have their own personalities. my guess is there are parts of the code that aren't understood and the difference in vendor personality is not intended by you modders. i do not mean for that to sound argumentative or to be critical. it is based on watching various markets and following vendors around.i am not even sure if all mods from the same modder act the same.

        there are so many markets and it is such a tedious process to follow 1 vendor constantly for a year,pause the game to check on the other workers, find the vendor again and check his inventory. it would take several months to study them. i did follow some a while back.computer ate my notes. some vendors go idle more often than others. as they are idle, some will go move items for workers while other vendors will stand still at the cemetary. the vendors all have a unique personality to them.and it does make the game interesting that way.many times the vendors will do things that doesn't make sence.seems to be hiden functions to them in the codes.it also seems that modders can affect that part of the coding without realizing it.

      again don't take any of that is being critical of any modders. the bannies having unique personalities does make the game more fun.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 12:25:46 PM
No worries, I not think you are critical at all. Figuring out some game play stuff is interesting.
I just responded because the code of setting some flags in a market is fairly easy so not really a need for slinks code for that.

Idling is part of the happiness/health factors as well so one happy vendor with good health will behave different then a vendor with bad health and who is not happy.

I not think modders can affect the hidden code regarding professions. The professions code is fairly simple and short.
It is more references to sprites and the string table.
So a vendor from one modder will not be different then another as it is just Luke's code we use without changes.

But even added professions from different modders will not affect the hidden code if that exist because there are no "hooks" for it.
What modders have no access to they cannot change either.
If Luke programmed it so a vendor, or any other bannie, will go nuts so once in a while it will be the same for all the same professions from whatever modder.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 29, 2018, 03:31:14 PM
thank you,EB. i do agree with the logic and theory.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 03:53:48 PM
No worries @brads3
Even as a modder I keep learning each day.
So many times I had to ask Red to look over some of my code because something was not right.


The modkit has some weird stuff sometimes and I cannot always understand the logic like the Fuel added by Kid in the storage cart from Kids HO Mods I talked about in the other thread.
I was pretty sure if another mod without that fuel added was above HO it would not put fuel in the cart but it did.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: elemental on July 29, 2018, 04:15:53 PM
A general food market is a good solution. Stocking all types of foods and not filling up with stone or roof tiles or any of the other items that come with mods. I like to use the CC food market (or maybe it's called farmer's market) and also DS food market and EB's small food market. I don't really like building the same building over and over again on the same map (except for houses) so more food markets large and small would be welcomed by me.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: smurphys7 on July 29, 2018, 05:07:10 PM
There is no CC Food Market.  Colonial Charter has an "Edibles Market" that does NOT attempt to stock every food group.  The Edibles Market only stocks food based on what is the nearest available.  Personally, I feel that this quality makes the Edibles Market nigh useless.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 29, 2018, 05:41:58 PM
How does that even work?  Does the code tell the vendor to only go so far to gather stock?  I agree that it sounds useless.  If the food is already nearby in a barn, the bannies can go there.  The real value of getting food from a market is that the populace will all have access to all four food groups.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: elemental on July 29, 2018, 05:46:05 PM
Is there any food market that attempts to stock every food group? I think I have read that markets can only be told what food groups to stock, not how much of each different type of food. So modders can't tell a market to stock 25% of each food group. But I'm not a modder so I can't say for sure.

A general food market and a general goods market works well for me though. I used to use the CC Central market but found that it just gets filled with too much non-food items, as has already been mentioned.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 05:52:08 PM
Yes

Modders first set the flags and then the % of how much of each can be stored.
Here is a example of the food market of the Market Set.

StorageDescription storage
{
RawMaterialFlags _storageFlags = Edible | Grain | Vegetable |Protein | Fruit;
bool _areaBasedLimit = false;
bool _available = false;
int _volumeLimit = 1800;
}


So all groups are in, even inedible as I set the four subgroups here too.
Then in another section the %.
In my case I just gave all four 25% so 25% of 1800 is 1800/4 = 450 per group if the weight is 1.

MarketDescription market
{
float _fillLimit = 0.99;

FillType _fillType
[
{
RawMaterialFlags _flags = Grain;
float _ratio = 0.250;
}
{
RawMaterialFlags _flags = Vegetable;
float _ratio = 0.250;
}
{
RawMaterialFlags _flags = Protein;
float _ratio = 0.250;
}
{
RawMaterialFlags _flags = Fruit;
float _ratio = 0.249;
}
]
}




Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 29, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
in you case it would stock grain 1st and fruit last. so if there was a shortage of grain, it would delay stocking of the others while it stocked up on the grain? is there anything in the market code that alters how far the vendor will travel for the items?
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 06:41:24 PM
I don't know if the order of how it is written have an impact on that a vendor have  to use the 1st first but I doubt it is the case as it makes no sense and complicate things if that was the case.
The code I written allows all food groups and i don't think the order I typed them are important but am not 100% sure.

No code opened up to us for how far a vendor will travel. It is all part of the AI code we have no access to.

Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: brads3 on July 29, 2018, 07:31:34 PM
on trade posts it does matter. if you trade the 1st item listed ,the 2nd and 3rd ,etc will not be stocked until the 1st is restocked.so if you are out of the 1st item, the trading post won't be very well stocked when the next merchant arrives. what others mention about the larger markets is they stock on a variety of goods plus food.not food plus other items.
     the problem SMURPHY noted months ago was early in games those other items aren't available yet and the vendor walks around looking for them.so instead of stocking food that is available,he waunders and doesn't stock enough. so say it is set to stock everything plus food and tools.it is holding space for those other items but also not stocking the food that is nearby.double edged sword not only do those odd goods tie up space,whether you have them or not. plus not having these items delays him stocking needed items.

   thankfully, modders have continued making adjustments and storage and markets are working much better.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 07:42:47 PM
If it is coded by Luke in that way it is very bad and is not logical either.
That is why I thought he never programmed it like that also because a modder should not have to think about how to write the order.
Every game is different so a order what to stock first makes no sense.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: elemental on July 29, 2018, 08:00:25 PM
Quote from: embx61 on July 29, 2018, 05:52:08 PM

Modders first set the flags and then the % of how much of each can be stored.


I didn't know that was possible. Good to see that it can be done.

Quote from: smurphys7 on July 29, 2018, 05:07:10 PM
There is no CC Food Market.  Colonial Charter has an "Edibles Market" that does NOT attempt to stock every food group.  The Edibles Market only stocks food based on what is the nearest available.  Personally, I feel that this quality makes the Edibles Market nigh useless.

If you would like to see it coded better then send kralyerg a message. He has previously released patches and other mods based on player requests.
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: smurphys7 on July 30, 2018, 12:52:21 AM
Here is a Link to the discussion on Black Liquid. (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/topic/1517-why-do-these-markets-function-differently/)  Some of my video links may be broken.

The CC Edible Market uses edibles rather than food groups because some players complained that a market could stock non-edible food like Flour.  Apparently, the CC community at Black Liquid prefers a market that could be stocking 1 Food Group (Edibles Market currently)  over a market stocking 3 Food Groups (4 food groups but 1 is inedible). 
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: Goblin Girl on July 30, 2018, 06:46:28 AM
The markets that have most successfully provided a balanced diet to my Bannies are the vanilla market, the farm stand, and the food market made by Discrepency, that has a matching non-food market.  Sorry I can't recall their official names at the moment.  And maybe the Discrepency ones only work well because I always place them together?  I dunno.
@brads3, with regard to trading posts, I've found that if there is zero of the product higher on the list the trade post worker will go on to the next.  But if there's 2 in a barn somewhere, he's going to go get those.  The easiest way I've found to solve this is to over-produce pretty much everything your trading post offers for sale.  So if I'm stocking 1000 charcoal, then I'm going to set my charcoal limit to 3000.  Also, having production and storage of charcoal next to the post allows quick refill in case I want to buy more stuff before the boat leaves.  (But you probably knew this, sorry.) 

The other thing I've found that helps prevent markets clogging up with stuff I don't want is to use the warehouse.  Well, or find a way to use those things.  Build a greenhouse to use up the bone meal.  Build a candle maker to use up the tallow.  Or, um, use someone else's butcher to avoid the tallow problem altogether.  (I really hate the CC butchers and never use them for this reason.)
Title: Re: Let's talk about markets
Post by: rkelly17 on July 30, 2018, 10:08:49 AM
I've always found that one good way to get rid of stuff that is clogging up markets is to sell it off at a trading post. Some of it isn't worth much, but, hey, it sells. Since my main items for sale are firewood (worth 4 units), ale, wine, (worth 8 each) and tequila (worth 10), I can use the cheap stuff I want to get rid of to get the precise amount needed. That being said, in my last settlement after I got above 1000 citizens my smaller markets did not have very much food in them so I built some specialist stands and carts to make sure food was distributed better. I get a bit frustrated that general markets carry intermediate materials that may only be used by one or two craftspeople far, far away from that market. Of course, like all hard-to-please Banished players, I am perfectly happy with the markets near those craftspeople carrying the intermediate material.  ::)