World of Banished

MODS Garage => Tips and Help => Topic started by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 09:46:58 AM

Title: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 09:46:58 AM
Been getting my ducks in a row to get into modding again.  Occurred to me that, with the mod I did last winter (and the other that I modelled but didn't complete) I followed Discrepancy's tutorial.  The tutorial has you start with a frame and then add faces for walls.  So, at the end, it was just a simple matter of pulling the faces and other details out to create the frames for build stages.

I've been watching a lot of tutorials for modelling buildings in Blender and Sketchup and all of them seem to start with a solid block then contouring it. Which is probably more efficient once you're adept with it and likely reduces extra polys as opposed to piecing different elements together.  But now I'm debating how best to go about doing the build stages for buildings and have them match the final mesh, especially ones that don't necessarily have parts of a frame on the exterior.

Really curious as to what others do for this.

Also, unrelated, but since I'm posting...I noticed with the mods I did before that bannies were able to clip through the outer corners of my buildings in-game.  Which leads me to suspect I was exceeding the grid to a degree even though, by eye, everything was within the grid.  Is there a way to, say, snap an edge to the grid to make sure it's within that boundary?  Or is something else causing it?  I double checked the mapping at the time and it was as it should be.  Actually, with the one I didn't complete, I think I kept everything at least a couple of cm within the grid, come to think of it.

Thanks in advance for any insight!
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 10:09:35 AM
Both ways are valid and it depends on the building which is modeled too.
It is indeed faster to have double faced walls for the building stages but a single plane wall works as well.
In the build stage mesh I use either a shell modifier, or detach a wall as copy, move copy of the wall a bit in and flip the faces.

But if I have just a double plane wall I just delete the insides of the main mesh after making a build stage copy to save some poly.

For things as statues I use a slice modifier to remove some of the top of the statue and just cap the top of the bottom part and re texture this part.
This is seen in the Statue of Liberty and Cristo Retendor mods build stages.

There are sure more ways of doing things but these are the ones I mostly use.

Yes the clipping can be annoying as bannies cut corners even into #.

In the beginning I made my buildings just as luke with the buildings smaller then say 4x4.
But then some "complained" about the road not going all the way up to walls. This was before the ghosted road pieces from CC.

So either way is okay because of the bannies cutting corners but players all ready know that bannies also walk straight through ghosted pieces and just accept it.
I have seen bannies walking inside a mine through the back through about ### thick not allowance part in the template file.
So all in all, most players know about the limitations of the Mod kit and the sometimes weird pathing behavior of bannies so I would not worry too much about this stuff.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 10:32:57 AM
Really appreciate it, @embx61 .

Just so I have what you're saying correctly...

One option would be to make the model but do it with double sided walls.  Like as if one were planning to do interiors.  Then just knife out a frame, add the missing faces on the sides of each part of the frame.

Or, after building the model, delete extraneous details, duplicate the exterior faces, pull them inside and reverse the faces.  Knife out a frame and add faces on the sides of each piece.

Just making sure I have that right. Reminds me I'll have to get accustomed to the knife tool again.  Seem to remember having some trouble with it at first but eventually got it down.

What is a shell modifier?  Not familiar with that.  A plug-in?

Thank you very much.  I'm really fuzzy as it's been almost a year and I was still learning then as it was.  Trying to wrap my brain around a few details like this so I can proceed with some semblance of an orderly workflow.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 10:54:19 AM
If you have double walls (A box) you only have to delete all the faces on the inside of the building of the main mesh after making a copy for the build stages.
The main mesh walls become plains after deleting the inside faces.

If you start the mesh with plains then those plains can be copied and moved a bit and flip the faces so they become a double wall.
The start as double wall is easier to do so i recommend this and I use this the most too.

If the walls are low poly to start with i sometimes not even bother to delete the insides.
Saving on poly is a good thing but saving 36 poly on say a thousand by deleting inside of walls I sometimes leave it be :)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 11:06:32 AM
Here a picture i took more then a year back when i redid some of some houses for The Pilgrim.

In this case I deleted the inside of the walls so they became plains.
The walls are modeled pretty bad as is seen by all those lines on the walls.
This mostly happens if the modeler create a box as wall and add a bunch of segments on them to later delete some faces to become the openings for door/windows.
As is clearly seen in the picture there are a lot of rectangle boxes which are all become two poly each.

I a case like this redoing the walls and either use a boolean modiefier to maker the door/windows holes or a better use of adding the connect edges is faster then weld a lot of vertices.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_10_07_17_3_22_55.jpeg)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
In the picture I made fast a wall.
It is just a box. Then I added two segment lines horizontal and from these lines 4 vertical segments so I can make the 2 windows.

After aligning the windows I delete the faces of the windows so they become holes and weld the vertices on the sides of the walls to the top and bottom corners.
Then in edge mode I select the edges of the windows to close the sides of the windows.

This double wall with 2 window holes is only 26 polys and mostly the top and bottom and even sides of the walls faces can be deleted so it become 22 poly wall
Using the boolean or pro boolean modifier to cut the holes can save a couple of extra poly and I think Red using the pro boolean modifier a lot.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_03_10_18_11_18_23.jpeg)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 12:23:45 PM
Oh, I gotcha.  Yes, I've tried different things for walls and different methods have their pluses and minuses.  Interested in checking out Sketchup as it seems really intuitive and a bit more dialed in for our uses than Blender.  Saw that 3ds Max has a trial version and I might give that a look, too.  Blender is great, but it's a large and complex package and I found it kind of unintuitive and slow-going before.  I'm sure whatever I decide to go with will lend itself to a particular method.

But I think we might be talking about different things.  My question is about building the building stage models once you've completed a final mesh.  The ones displayed by the game while the building is under construction.  Thus far, I've used Discrepancy's tutorial method where you start with a frame then build on top of it...Then, at the end, deconstruct it back down to the frame and then foundation for the building stage models. And clean up the interior faces for the final building mesh.  But if you model from, say, a solid cube or several, skipping a frame, is there a particularly good way to go back and create the building stage models so that they match the final build?

I might not be articulating this well.

Thank you for the images.  I'm a big fan of The Pilgrim's houses and It's cool to see what it looked like in progress.  Using that as an example, how would you go about making the building stage models for that?
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: RedKetchup on October 03, 2018, 12:40:44 PM
i personally have everything double side. and it is super easy to do my building process since i delete the roof, the windows, the doors, and everything decoration and that copy i call it "build03" "build02" "build01" thats all

the citizens will always cut corners, i mention it very often. when they turn, the pathing allow to go at the very first pixel allowed to walk. they dont go from middle of a tile to another middle of a tile. so you need to give space and not stretch too much your mesh or allow another +1 tile large and +1 more tile width ^^

also make sure all your dummy are placed on allowed tiles map. if there is one misplaced, it will trigger sometime a "map protection modification" by the game which make the #### occasional instead of immovable. which will make your citizens allow to pass more easy through wall (like if would be a stockpile) this protection has been made to allow citizens to build / and not being struck inside a building when you finished to build it.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 12:49:15 PM
In that case I would select a wall and detach/copy that wall. (Plane)
Then move that copy of the  wall say 8 or 10 cm in and flip the faces. Then close the holes with cap/bridge modifiers were needed.

It is more time consuming but sometimes the only way beside modeling from scratch from a model downloaded from the internet as mostly they are just hollow boxes so the walls are just planes.

That IMHO it is easier to just stick with the double walls and create the whole mesh. After the main mesh is done make a copy named build02 and delete roof, doors, windows.
Because the walls are double all ready not much else need to be done.

Then make a copy of build02 and name it build01 and delete everything beside the foundation.
After all is done inside of the double walls from the main mesh can be deleted as they are never to be seen unless you use transparent glass and/or other openings not closed by a door.

Some indeed just drop some building materials as the build01 stage.


Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: RedKetchup on October 03, 2018, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 12:49:15 PM
Then make a copy of build02 and name it build01 and delete everything beside the foundation.
After all is done inside of the double walls from the main mesh can be deleted as they are never to be seen unless you use transparent glass and/or other openings not closed by a door.

yeah since i use see through windows all the time... i prefer to keep my double side walls :)
also the shadow game engine has hard sometime with single plane roof, if there is a little hole somewhere, the whole roof wont cast shadows.... so i always let everything double side.

i ve got to be a "save the polygons" addict at some point.... but when i saw the number of polygons CC has almost everywhere... i stoped to care too much ^^
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 12:57:01 PM
Here a picture of the mesh and two build stages. There are more because of a F key variant but just focus on the first row.

There is the mesh, it has double walls so when it was finished I made a copy named build02 and start deleting roof, doors, windows, chimney etc.
After that i made a copy of that and named build01 and deleted everything beside the foundation.

As you see it is easier then adding extra planes so i would stick with double walls wherever i can.
That is why i mostly remodel a model from internet from scratch as it is faster then meddling with those planes they mostly just are :)

I like to add while I not really know Blender 3ds max is also a complicated piece of software.
I honestly think if I know 10% of all there is in 3ds max it is all ready on the high side :)
But what i know currently is enough to make mods for Banished and we learn more features as we keep going.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_03_10_18_12_52_57.jpeg)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: RedKetchup on October 03, 2018, 01:00:48 PM
yeah thats quicker and more easy. the thing though i do, i take the time to edit the build02 and add wood piece to make a roof frame to add more realism.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 01:09:17 PM
Awesome!  Thank you, gentlemen.  That's definitely easy and straightforward enough.  I had visions of having to get inside and frame out a whole building but using the walls like that is great.

@RedKetchup Since you mention it about the clipping issue, I think I put my build points very close to the mesh so that may be what happened. Next time I'll put them further out and see if that fixes it.

Thanks again, guys!  Excited to get back into this.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 01:14:35 PM
I agree Red that while I try to save as much poly as possible I am not that I waste hours of looking for and deleting some faces to save an extra 50 poly in a building.
I mostly save poly's if I have to (re)do round columns because they use like 32 sides what can easily be 12 or 16 for a column.

Some things from the sketchup site are just crazy. While it all looks nice in Max lots of vertices and poly's which are not needed so mostly recreate thoise from scratch like the Brandenburger Tor and The Arch i am currently working on. I found one time 10 Yes TEN planes just stacked on top of each other  ::)

In Banished you cannot really get up close anyway without using a cheat engine so a lot of details (Which mostly cost the most polygons) are washed out and not worth the extra poly's.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: RedKetchup on October 03, 2018, 01:21:15 PM
yeah thats sad, i requested often a better zoom for us modders who love to put details.... Luke has ignored me each time :(


3dsmax can import skp files, but it is sure it is not 100% optimal.
not sure if you can ask sketchup to export to .obj and ask 3dsmax to load the obj which would maybe more optimal.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 01:26:01 PM
I mostly line up the buildings so they touch the roads wherever possible  because I think lots of players prefer it that way.
The drawback is that bannies will indeed cut through the corners but i just take it for what it is.

Banished is far from a perfect game in that sense and players have no problems with ghosted stuff where bannies walk straight through so a little corner clipping so once in a while not bother me.
Bannies walk and work under water in the build stages if the player build jetties and nothing we can do about it as the build stages not recognize the floor object.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 01:26:57 PM
@embx61 When you say crazy stuff from the Sketchup site...You mean pre-made meshes?

I was going to try doing my modeling in Sketchup then exporting to Blender for the finishing stages.  I've only used Blender so far but it just seemed like everything takes a lot longer to do while modeling than necessary simply because the tools are all over the place and the software does so much.  Have liked what I've seen of Sketchup on video so far.  That said, I did read something about some strange things happening during the export-import process so will have to test it.  I'm going to have a look at the 3ds trial, too.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: RedKetchup on October 03, 2018, 01:21:15 PM
3dsmax can import skp files, but it is sure it is not 100% optimal.
not sure if you can ask sketchup to export to .obj and ask 3dsmax to load the obj which would maybe more optimal.

There's some question as to what can be exported as there are different paid tiers for the software and export formats get limited by that.  I'm pretty sure the full version is required for .obj exports but there's another format both use, apparently.  I say that's in question because the software changed hands and it changes constantly, apparently.  Going to have a look at it tonight.

Also going to check out 3ds as it appears to have a trial version. If I've got to pay for something it might as well be the one everyone swears by. Always seemed a bit more intuitive than Blender.

I don't hate Blender.  May very well stick with it.  I just want to explore other options this time and see if I can spend more time creating things than researching how to do every little basic thing imaginable.  Also, nothing snaps to anything, that I recall, and it gets cumbersome.  Blender is a great package, especially considering it's free, but it cuts you no slack and nothing is common sense easy with it.

We shall see. I was in a bit of a rush last time because I wanted to see that first mod through, having never done it, but I'm going to take my time now.  Especially getting a good method of dealing with textures down.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 01:58:02 PM
Yes premade meshes from 3dwarehouse site.
Lots are, with all respect but i have to be honest, just garbage and you have to look hard to find some nice modeled ones. Some are rather nice but mostly very high poly.
I recreated the Brandenburger Tor with the sketchup file as a guide from scratch and with 4 build stages included went from 192000 poly as the sketchup mesh is to just under 40000.

Still high poly though but players can build only one of those landmarks and it is quite large so if you count the squares it occupies it is 30x16 footprint.
So 16 x 30= 480 game tiles. 40.000 / 480 = 83.3 poly per square. A tree or crop is more I think :)

It seems like they make most everything out of planes. So instead of using a box to make for example a post they create four planes.

Because they use planes a lot the vertices count will go up.
If you create a box to make a post it has 8 vertices. If you do the same with four planes it is 4x4 = 16 vertices.
But what is worse is that the planes are not really connected to each other.

Luckily there is a weld modifier in max and if I set that at 0.01 cm it will weld only all the vertices laying on top of each other.
In some meshes I downloaded and looked at I saved by this step alone 4400 vertices. out of about 16000 in 5 seconds time :)

Some models are nice but I personally would just use them as a guide and recreate them from scratch.
It saves on poly, vertices, and other errors which tend to creep in after importing sketchup files into max I think.

But more is that you can really call it your own :)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 03, 2018, 02:35:32 PM
Yeah, I imagine those publicly available downloads are probably all over the place.  Very impressive that you recreated all of that.  For the size, that doesn't sound like an unreasonable poly count.  Didn't realize it was that big from just looking at the download page.  Going to definitely check it out.  Nice to have some grand structures like that to play with.

But yes, I'll definitely be making my own meshes.  That's the fun part, learning curve notwithstanding, and doing it is the only way you get better.  Just doing that one house, then the next, I learned so much by slogging through it.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: embx61 on October 03, 2018, 02:49:37 PM
Yeps, by doing it yourself, no shame in using a mesh as a guide so once in a while though, you learn faster.

Here a picture of the arch I created by using a sketchup arch as a guide.
The Sketchup Arch is like 149.000 poly.

I never use a guide mesh for a 100% but add/skip some things as i go. The Arch mesh I made from scratch next to it is just 2.559 poly currently and almost finished and contains the 8 columns as well :)
Most of those poly's are from very small parts on top of the columns which some probably will not even be seen in banished so can be omitted.

Then i use my own textures as well as many textures from sketchup are not to the power of 2 so will not work right out of the box in Banished.
All in all, some sketchup files can for sure be handy as guides or ideas.


(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_03_10_18_2_33_54.jpeg)

Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: angainor88 on October 04, 2018, 05:54:20 AM
Yeah, Sketchup is pretty easy to use, but you do have to do some cleanup after importing it into Blender or whatever program you want to use. The free version lets you export as .dae files; the paid (and trial version) have some other options.

I put a short tutorial on importing into Blender if you want to see some of the difficulties. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2345.0 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2345.0)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 04, 2018, 08:31:23 AM
@angainor88 That's awesome, thank you.  That's a great tutorial.

I messed around with SketchUp some last night but didn't get too far into it.  It's browser based now, it seems, except for the Pro version so may wind up sticking with Blender.  Going to keep playing with it though.

Much appreciated.  How's your project been going?
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 04, 2018, 08:50:15 AM
SketchUp Make is still available for download on www.sketchup.com/download/make  :)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 04, 2018, 10:42:53 AM
Very nice, thank you, @Tom Sawyer .

I just followed the links I found.  Didn't see that.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 04, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
Just downloaded SketchUp Make.  Probably worth noting that it's now the trial version of the Pro version, with a 30 day free access.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 04, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
I think it turns into the permanent free version after 30 days with export options limited to dae, which we use. So no problem. This idea of a free but only online tool is not cool in my opinion. I'm glad we still have this free offline version.

If you go on with SketchUp, this file might be helpful. It's one of my frame houses including building stages and prepared for further processing in Blender. Easier to look at it than trying to explain how walls and things are made. :)
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 04, 2018, 12:56:34 PM
Yeah, I gather since Google offloaded it there have been a lot of changes to how the software is being handled.  Good to know it remains free after the 30 days.  It definitely performs better than the browser version, so not sure that particular approach will work well for them in the long run.

Played around with it some more and it's very straightforward.  Camera view takes some getting used to but otherwise it's nice and simple.

Very cool, thank you.  I will definitely give it a look.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 04, 2018, 01:19:32 PM
For camera view I mostly only use the mouse wheel for zooming in and out as well as holding it down for turning the camera and sometimes the pan tool. Also, you will love the push/pull tool and holding ctrl while moving an object will copy it. Maybe to make a simple guide with the basic tools used for creating houses, doors, chimneys and things like that in SketchUp.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: angainor88 on October 05, 2018, 05:58:02 AM
Yeah I got sketchup a while ago; I didn't realize that it had gone to an online version.

Push pull is very nice (and my secret favorite is the follow me tool, which can make some nice domes and weird shapes)(or completely fuck up everything haha).
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: kid1293 on October 05, 2018, 06:15:59 AM
This may sound like an advertisement :) but I can not live without Sketchup.
I am only scratching the surface of Blender and need basic models to play with.
Needless to say - it has so many options it is fun to experiment and find new shapes.

I am in awe of people who use only 3DMax or Blender but I have found a way that
works for me :)

I model build stages (copy and move) then I add all walls and windows and chimney.
I put my head in the model to remove not needed surfaces from final mesh.
One thing on my wish list is an angled push-pull. That would be great. You can always
move it after you have pulled it out...
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: Maldrick on October 05, 2018, 09:15:52 AM
Heya @kid1293 :)  How are you, sir?

Absolutely true, about Blender.  It's an amazing software package but it's a lot to learn, just to do basic things.  Last night, for example, I spent 15 mins looking around for where to manually set dimensions on something as opposed to dragging.  Finally gave in and googled.  Found the answer...type in fields on a particular menu.  Check.  Then another 15 mins not finding the fields because they weren't showing in that menu.  Then I manage to bumble into switching from edit mode to object mode and the fields appear. Lol. It's like this with everything.  I haven't a clue as to how to make an arch. Or a rounded corner.  I'm sure over a weekend I could figure it out. :P

Thanks for sharing how you do your build models.
Title: Re: Build Stages
Post by: kid1293 on October 05, 2018, 09:31:55 AM
This is not a Sketchup thread, but...

Round corners, domes, nice windows...
Use the Follow me tool as angainor88 said. It is powerful.
Under tools. Read instruction in right window pane. (instructor)