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This is starting to look like a monastic communism.

Started by A Nonny Moose, August 07, 2014, 02:10:38 PM

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irrelevant

Well now, there is something to be said for that, I never considered that. Firewood and logs are always an issue.

I've never built a mine or a quarry, either one. I'll have to consider that. It's not like I don't have enough guys! :D

RavenSteele

If the math works out straight, it appears that 1 log + 1 iron = 2 iron tools and 1 log + 1 iron + 1 coal = 3 steel tools.  It says that steel tools last twice as long, so using that logic, producing 6 iron tools is the same number of resources as 6 steel tools, but the 6 steel tools will last twice as long.  So in essence you will use twice as many resources producing iron tools.  Also, steel tools spread the resource usage amongst the three resources, where iron uses only logs and iron, so the hit to your iron and logs is higher because you don't have coal to share the cost.  I realize coal is worth more when trading, but I don't trade for any reason other than emergencies and I like that my iron and log reserves don't dwindle as fast.

RedKetchup

are you sure its +1 wood +1 iron = 2 Tools ?
and +1 wood +1 iron +1 coal = 3 tools ?
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RavenSteele

@RedKetchup, no :)  I double-checked.  It just shows three steel tools on the ground but when picked up it displays only 2 in inventory.

But still, if steel tools last twice as long as iron then 2 steel tools = 4 iron tools.  2 steel = 1 iron, 1 log, 1 coal for a total of 3 resources.  4 iron tools = 2 iron + 2 logs for 4 resources.  Steel tools are still 25% more efficient to produce.

Edit: not to mention use half as much iron and logs.

rkelly17

Quote from: RavenSteele on August 15, 2014, 07:15:37 AM
@RedKetchup, no :)  I double-checked.  It just shows three steel tools on the ground but when picked up it displays only 2 in inventory.

But still, if steel tools last twice as long as iron then 2 steel tools = 4 iron tools.  2 steel = 1 iron, 1 log, 1 coal for a total of 3 resources.  4 iron tools = 2 iron + 2 logs for 4 resources.  Steel tools are still 25% more efficient to produce.

Edit: not to mention use half as much iron and logs.

The problem I always faced was the citizens using up all my coal to burn for warmth and leaving none for the blacksmiths. The result of trying to produce steel tools was always a massive tool shortage. How do you deal with that?

RavenSteele

I have three mines, two that typically produce iron and one that produces coal.  A fully staffed coal mine covers all the heating & blacksmith needs of my entire village.  I'm sitting around 200 in reserve for coal right now.  I'm not sure why my citizens aren't using coal as much as yours.  It may be another factor?  Like warm coats or an abundance of firewood?  I have 10,000+ firewood and 300 warm coats in reserve at any given time.  I also have a mix of wood and stone houses (about 50/50).

RavenSteele

Another factor may in favor of steel tools is time.  A blacksmith has to produce twice as many iron tools as steel to support your population, which means twice as many trips to the market/stockpile/barn.

@rkelly17, it sounds like the difference is my citizens aren't using as much coal to heat their homes as yours.  What kind of houses do you build?  And what is your source for coal?

mariesalias

I usually build some coal mines too and build some steel tools, but when my towns get bigger, I usually end up switching to trading iron tools for steel to keep my population supplied and build up a good stockpile of them. With the trade being iron tools worth 8 and steel tools worth 10, it works out nicely. Later when I have excess wool, I stop making warm coats and trade for them, too.

I do build at least half wooden houses (often more) though as I am not so fond of how the stone ones look.

RavenSteele

#38
@mariesalias I think you may be short changing yourself that way :)

Keeping in mind that 2 iron tools =1 steel tool:

2 iron tools is 16 in value.  1 steel tool is 10 in value.  Cost of resources for iron tool plus cost of steel tool is 19.  This is a net loss of 3.

If instead you use the iron tools to buy materials for steel tools, then cost of resources for iron tools plus cost of resources for steel tools is 16.5 (resource cost of 15 halved to indicate single steel tool + 9 for cost of iron tool resources).  This is a net loss of 0.5.

In all, producing iron tools to trade for steel causes a loss no matter if you buy the steel tools directly or the resources to make them yourself.

irrelevant

#39
@RavenSteele These decisions aren't always made solely as a result of trade calculations. For me, the inventory management isn't worth it. I produce iron tools, period. That way, a tool is a tool. I don't have to deal with coal. In my 4000 pop town, I never owned a single lump.

Every time I built a market I also built a blacksmith next to it. Eventually I was producing thousands of iron tools per year at 30-35 blacksmiths because they are excellent in trade, and what my guys were using was basically trade surplus. For a number of years I was also buying steel tools, but I got tired of trying to keep an eye on inventories of two types of tool, in addition to everything else. Plus having two types of tool interferes with the usefulness of the "low supply" warning. Finally I stopped buying them (same time I decided to stop buying warm coats), as a way to simplify my manual trade activities at 22 trading posts. Now all I was buying was logs, iron, wool, nuts (for diet balance) and fruit.

If what you are doing works for you, then it is right for you. As your town grows, what works for you may change  ;)

RavenSteele

@irrelevant oh I know :)  There are also considerations such as the amount of labor needed to mine coal & iron, harvest trees, the cost of the mines & forester buildings, the drain on resources & housing that each blacksmith, miner, & forester causes and so on.

Right now I have only one trading post, and now that I have all seeds/livestock the only reason I use it is to supplement my current resource gathering.  I buy coal, iron, leather, and wool only.  I produce so many logs that I never buy them.  I trade using firewood and iron tools.

Then again, my population is only 500 and as I fill the map and run out of space I'm sure trading is going to become much more important :)

Oh and as a side note, I built my fourth blacksmith to boost my falling tool production.  Now I have 3 producing steel tools and 1 producing iron for trade.  Out of curiosity irrelevant, how many tools do you produce per blacksmith on average?  My steel tool production is about 110 - 115 per blacksmith and my iron is 75 for the one blacksmith.  I assume my iron tool blacksmith doesn't produce as much because he is near stockpiles and barns that keep filling up.  My steel tool blacksmiths are all right next to markets.  My next task is to add another stockpile and barn to the area or possibly switch to a market instead.

irrelevant

#41
Quote from: RavenSteele on August 15, 2014, 12:19:34 PM
There are also considerations such as the amount of labor needed to mine coal & iron, harvest trees, the cost of the mines & forester buildings, the drain on resources & housing that each blacksmith, miner, & forester causes and so on.

Right, and I don't want to think anywhere near that hard!  ;)

Quote from: RavenSteele on August 15, 2014, 12:19:34 PMOut of curiosity irrelevant, how many tools do you produce per blacksmith on average? [....] I assume my iron tool blacksmith doesn't produce as much because he is near stockpiles and barns that keep filling up.  My steel tool blacksmiths are all right next to markets.  My next task is to add another stockpile and barn to the area or possibly switch to a market instead.

I think they're averaging around 100 iron tools yearly. I'll check when I get home this evening. Yes, that's the problem with relying on barns and stockpiles to supply producers, no control over what goes into them.

RavenSteele

QuoteRight, and I don't want to think anywhere near that hard!  ;)

I'm a data analyst by trade, so I enjoy that level of complexity ;)

I really enjoy learning about how you and others play the game.  It helps me refine my own strategy!

irrelevant

#43
Last year got 3998 iron tools, average 110. The most was 174, that one was fronted on a market near a TP.

I'm a CPA, but I get enough numbers at work.

Did you ever notice that the shot of novocain you get from your dentist is also a number? :)

RavenSteele

So we are averaging about the same.  I built a market right next to my trading post and my iron tools blacksmith and his production jumped to 100 the first year after that.  Also my trading post is stocking product much quicker.  Woohoo!

Ah you're a CPA.  Makes total sense why you like it simple!  I don't have to deal with numbers as much as you do.  I have databases to calculate all of them for me :)  Though database development does require a ton of algebra, so can't get away from it completely.

No I never noticed that about the Novocain, but I haven't had any in a very long time.  My dentist uses all sonic tools which don't hurt at all.