Nilla- testing DS Industrial mining beta

[irrelevant]

A lot of "out of the box" thinking.

So, tough for me!

  Be warned.                   

Thanks for the advice! 

[MarkAnthony]

Sorry @irrelevant , I updated my comment to be more clear. You didn't get that version of it. Please re-read.

[irrelevant]

NP, I've got so much catching up to do, I'll be lucky even to get a town started this evening.

[irrelevant]

Wow! Health evaporates so fast! Brutal.

Doesn't seem to matter much for day-to-day operations, though.

[irrelevant]

Took most of two years to figure out how to make iron. Fun!

[irrelevant]

Year 5: rough stuff on a medium start, but I think I've got the basics down; timber mill, charcoal piles, iron mine, bloomeries. Maybe try something harder tomorrow.

[Nilla]

You´ve done well, @irrelevant. Health does matter, at least to some point; you were probably lucky, but the chances of childbirth deaths and diseases increase a lot with an unhealthy population. But it´s difficult to get them healthy. I like that!

I find your advice very good @MarkAnthony. Something similar but without such bad consequences happened to me as well in an earlier game where the small Smith´s hearth also could produce iron and copper. I was tired of switching between iron, copper, tools, iron fittings.... so I wanted a second site but since I saved my iron for other things and only produced copper tools, I couldn´t build the second hearth. It was no big deal to produce a few iron tools, I still had my first Smith´s hearth but I think I learned to build the first site fast, as long as some of the initial iron tools are left.

But now we are back at Atgelendover. I realize I haven´t told you which mods I´m using. I find Marks efforts with a more "pure" industrial mining interesting so I stole his idea and are only using a couple of house mods and the Thomson trader but only to be able to buy some sheep. I will not use any of the other ports. I was a bit hesitating about the Wagon Vendors. Yes, you may see them as a cheat. You get a working market very cheap but I simply love them. They are too nice to take away.

I made a few screenshots when I played yesterday but none of them is good or interesting so I´ll make a few new at the point I´m at now, 100 inhabitants and tell you how I continued to develop the settlement.

First picture
Mods in this game. No need for any Mod Manager here.

Second picture
I could buy some sheep and flax seeds. This corner of the map will be reserved for the production of clothing, linen, lamp oil. Since I want to use the linen together with wool for warm coats, I needed the Bryggen Tailor. The vanilla tailor can´t produce any, maybe that is something to change @Discrepancy. It would also be nice to be able to use only linen to produce clothes. If the merchants bring flax seed but no sheep, you will have a lot of textiles (linen) but your population may still walk around in rags.

I can now produce enough advanced building materials to be able to build more fuel-saving houses from the Townhouse mod. There will be a row of Bryggen houses here along the small river. In the industrial areas, I will build Brick houses. By the way; I´ve also upgraded all (?) log houses to the more fuel-saving log homes.

Third picture
Here you can see the main reason for the linen-lamp oil production on the last picture. I´m about to build a larger mine that needs lamp oil (or candles, hard to produce without bees). This first mine will mainly produce coal. It´s obvious; you now need more coal than in earlier versions, my first little coal pit is already depleted. I will upgrade it and compare it to the mine but if there are no changes, it´s faster and cheaper to produce coal in the large mine, but I want to check it out again myself. The coke chain is much better now. It was ridiculously easy to produce a lot of coke earlier. Now it´s more balanced.

The metals are very heavy and need a lot of space on the stockpile. Make sure you have large stockpiles somewhere between blast furnace and blacksmiths. Mine look large but I think they are too small. I now produce only hardened tools.

You can also see that health has improved fast to 3½ hearts after I can buy food (wheat).

Fourth picture
This little Thadd Surrel Trading centre looks great! But I´m afraid that´s the only really nice thing I can say about it. OK, I can also say, that it seems to work. I can buy enough food, mainly wheat and apples to increase my food store in the way I want. I can also buy a few of the more inefficient raw materials, like ores and coal and if a merchant brings logs, I will buy them too. That are also good things. But I don´t really get the sense of the coins/metal/gem trade.

I need the big port to "buy" gold, silver, gems and silver ingots if I want to buy anything from the other merchants. They may barter with some goods but pay terribly. But what´s the advantage compared to a vanilla port (except the look)? There are disadvantages; you need to deal with 2 merchants to buy something. The value of these precious things is weird. If you trade manually, you need a calculator, if you aren´t very good at counting "in your head". I belong to the older generation who learned this in school so it´s manageable but what about all younger folks who can´t add 7 and 9 and far less can estimate how many hardened tools worth 36 you need to buy 12 gold worth 252, 4 gems worth 199 and 25 silver worth 11?

And what is the use of the other coins? I tried to make it easy and "buy" some of the coins with the lower value as change but the merchant only pays 1 for the halfpence I bought for 2 and he doesn´t take the farthing worth 1 at all.

Anyhow, I auto trade for the gold etc and the merchant very consequently take the most valuable goods in my ports; only the hardened tools. It works because that´s what I produce for export. I also keep some other goods in the port that I want to get rid of; like mushrooms and leather that are overfilling my barns but he consequently refuses to take it. No big deal at the moment but it would be hard to use this port if you want to produce more than 1 thing for export.

I would be very interested to hear your ideas about this trade @Discrepancy.

[brads3]

i wondered if you had brought some mods with you.i know you do at times if you need the TH or school earlier in games. since you added DS mods,it is still pure enough to count.

       i think coins is an idea taken from RED's railroad mod. the RR mod or train mod uses them but it trades automatically.you ony have to telll it what to sell and what to buy. the hardest part with the train od is balance. it is easy to sell and have a stockpile of coins. otherwise the mod does work quite well. you can get a decent flow out of excess goods and input of food or other itesm.

      your trade post looks to be more complex but i wonder if DS had similar ideas in mnd. or is it set more to be like TOM's North trading?

[irrelevant]

@Nilla  in reply#32 of this thread you mentioned iron production at the Smith's Hearth. What am I missing, I don't see iron on mine (Yes, I scrolled thru all outputs several times)

[Nilla]

You aren´t missing anything. That was an earlier version of the mod. You can´t look all too much on earlier towns made in earlier versions. This is beta5. Lots of things have changed.

[irrelevant]

Thought that might be the case, thank you.

[Discrepancy]

How I utilise trade and the coins is still a work in progress, so the comments are valued and needed and I myself are open to ideas.
My idea with it was to be of a similar fashion as brads3 said, and similar to RK's Choo Choo, but still utilising the existing trader mechanic and having it manually undertaken. But I do not want a trader paying less for the coin than it is worth (or more), so I will look into this trader mechanic more.
It is of course profitable to go into the manufacturing of your own coins if you can produce the required resources.

The value of Silver is likely to be increased slightly which will also result in a change of value to Gold. The reason for the current values is that I based the value of gold on a historical ratio of 12:1
If it will prove difficult to multiply or divide, I will round it up or down to a suitable number.

Enhancements to the tailor and clothing industry is on the roadmap for this mod and elements have been completed, so yes I will include the changes in the production to the vanilla tailor.

Thanks

[Nilla]

I will go on and use these ports and also think about how they could be changed to make more fun to use.

I can understand your historical point of view @Discrepancy , when it comes to set the value of metals and coins, but as far as I've read (at the time @Tom Sawyer struggled with the same issue) the value of coins and ratio between copper/silver/gold were not always the same; different times, different counties (or even regions) had different numbers, so your *12 may be as right or wrong as any other. I would seriously consider the decimal system with 10 as the base, what most of us are used to.

What I also can add after some more years; there are too few merchants that bring food. And most of them only bring 4000, the big boats are rare. My population is now a bit over 200 and I didn't get enough food from one Purchase Office. First, I thought about just adding a second office to the existing Goods Buyer, since I (more or less) buy nothing but food, I think it can support 2 Purchase offices. But it looks like the metal/tool production also in this version is very profitable and I have more tools than one office can sell, so I decided to build another complex. I find 4 trading ports to support 200 inhabitants with less than 50% of their needed food is too much. To an industrial mod efficient trading ports are needed; to get rid of industrial products and to buy food. I find it should be possible to support a population in an industrial settlement 100% with imported food from a limited number of ports, like these Thomson Traders. They work very well at least for a population of some 100 inhabitants.

In this mod, it's good and logical to replace barter trade with the use of coins. It's good to have different ports for export and import. But the capacity of these specialized ports need to be larger. That could also be an incitement to use such a port instead of the vanilla (or Thomson) ports: You will need to build fewer ports.

First picture
I actually built an Assayer's Office. I don't have a silver mine, at least not yet. The production was very low, if I remember right only something like 25 silver ore the last time I tried it but I buy the little gold and silver ore that the merchants bring and make gold and silver ingots. I don't make any other coins, I can't use them to buy food anyway and some of them are even a loss of value. I haven't checked all recipes but by the smaller coins the value of the input is higher than the output.

Why are there three types of gold ore?

Second picture
Interesting @Discrepancy that you'll look into the health. It's not bad the way it is now. But I see two major issues; the effect of the herbalists and the fast-food-grabbing vendors and traders that you have no chance to get healthy (unless you have all food categories in every storage, and I don't think that is realistic).

You can't lose so much production by using a herbalist as you may do now. The production of the sick tailor went down to 16 when the goods was bad distributed in that corner of the map. All houses were in the circle of a Wagon vendor but the barn with almost only mutton was closer. So it can easily happen. Now a few years later the Bryggen row has their own Wagon Vendor, the tailor is healthy and last year the production went back to 120.

I may live with this. I'm aware of the danger of herbalists and don't build any unless I want to experiment and think I'm safe enough. But many people think; "health drops, we need a herbalist" and that may kill your settlement. That's a major issue. Now I don't know if this was the reason for @MarkAnthony´s failure (He makes other odd things, sorry Mark don't want to offend you ) but I'm pretty sure that it at least contributed to his problems.

I'll explain the health graph at the citizen menu.
Red; I could buy wheat. Fast increase of health. The following years I improved the distribution and health rose slowly.
Blue; the merchants aren't very reliable, sometimes there's a lack of wheat of fruit and health starts to drop.
Yellow; I staffed my herbalists. (But I didn't want people run all over the map to get the few herbs they can pick so I've bought a load of herbs in advance)

Third picture
The development of my industrial area.

You can see the drop of food in my stores before I build the second trade complex. Now it drops again. It's been some time since a merchant brought any food. It happens all the time when you trade for food, that's why you need a higher average store if you rely on trade.

I will now look into some production numbers and give some feedback here tomorrow.

[MarkAnthony]

I'm aware of the danger of herbalists and don't build any unless I want to experiment and think I'm safe enough. But many people think; "health drops, we need a herbalist" and that may kill your settlement. That's a major issue. Now I don't know if this was the reason for @MarkAnthony´s failure (He makes other odd things, sorry Mark don't want to offend you ) but I'm pretty sure that it at least contributed to his problems.

Not offended, don't easily get offended but I also have no clue what you are referring to; what do you mean I make other odd things?

[brads3]

as mods add more and more items,the chance of getting a food merchant boat goes down. since there is less food items compared to the overall total of items, the ratio of food boats has changed also. this leads to food trading posts being modded as well as a farm trader to being seeds and livestock. as you add more variety to your food being processed, the chance of a food merchant shoud start to go back up.

     a market near the trader's house would supply hi with the 4 food types. getting him and everyone else a variety of the foods under each food type will take some work.you should have protein at each market but that might be al fish and not a ix of deer,mutton,etc.  would take experienting and different planning.

         your herbalist issues seem to be game mechanic related.not sure how much control modders have over that. from what you have said,the biggest issue is the bannies walking to the herbalist everytime they need herbs. my thinking is they shouldn't need to do that the herbalist collects the herbs, and the bannies should be able to get the at markets or storage and use the herbs themself like they do food.  since we have doctors available in the game, the herbalist shouldn't act like a medicine man. the bannies should be able to use the herbs without all that walking.

         because of your explanations with these herbalists, i seldom use an herbalist but the bannies gather herbs when they search for foods.plus there are some growers that grow herbs but are not tagged as herbalists.

         excuse my logic, but your idea to drop the health to 0 and not worry about it to me is wrong. in RL if you did that, this town would have issues from day 1. production woud fall steadily. workers would be tied up helping the sick and not available to do work. your bith rates would suffer. the bannies would abandoned the town.
   
         to me it makes more sence to drop the health down as slowly as possable.wheeras you and MARK drop it instantly to 0, it should take a couple years to fall that far. thus giving you time to buid supplies and attempt to overcome the health issues.if health goes down say 25% then production drops but not to badly. at 50% drop to health,it becomes much harder to keep the town supplied. under 50%, you should run into serious problems.