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You want it darker?

Started by kid1293, September 19, 2017, 09:13:57 AM

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Denis de la Rive

Hey 2 cents is almost worth a nickel around here, which is great since we abolished the penny.

I have though about how to calculate the value of a given product in banished, taking into account production input, work, and investment. It works by creating a constant for the values Luke use in his vanilla buildings. After you put in the numbers into a complex formula, you get a multiplier that you apply to the input value to determine the final price. This you can then adjust according to historical and design needs.

Going from a basic resource it then flows from one production to the next. I have it written up somewhere when I offered it to CC in the hopes of improving balance, if there is interest I can post it here. It looks complicated, but once you calculate the constants, it is rather simple to apply. Given the power of spreadsheets you can easily program it and us it in any production design.

Having such a tool is also useful since you can start at any point and see how to get a balanced value that fits in nicely with the vanilla economy. For example you want a building to cost a certain amount to build and have a target final value in mind, you then adjust input resources and work to get the numbers you need. Unless it is an essential survival product, people won't invest in unprofitable industry. Why invest 100s of value to build a building that generates a loss?

By having a system that is consistent a designer can then create an economy according to his game design objectives. It helps you to create a unity in your production chains. Having such a tool can lead to synergy in multiple chains where a loss in one is made up in an other, and creates a need to build several buildings to achieve a large profit.

Once you get into this kind of thinking you can apply the same logic to housing for example taking into account size, family size, burn and storage to calculate building costs.

Simple things hidden under the hood, but that give a feeling of a consistant logic in the game universe. We have such a great basis to build on with Banished and its physics.

Denis de la Rive

Quote from: Gatherer on October 03, 2017, 02:22:18 PM
Unless some modder tags candles as woodfuel to heat homes...

BL has that in the production of fire bundles, its a really bad use of candles, easier to buy fire wood! ;))

kid1293

@Denis de la Rive

Quoteand creates a need to build several buildings to achieve a large profit

That was what I am afraid of. Creating a new need.

TaylorItaly

I would love the need of new and complex supply chains!

Denis de la Rive

Quote from: kid1293 on October 03, 2017, 02:41:13 PM
@Denis de la Rive

Quoteand creates a need to build several buildings to achieve a large profit

That was what I am afraid of. Creating a new need.

That is a design decision not related to a method of determining a fair trade value, and is a totally rational way of doing things. If you keep it simple then it should work, and having beeswax simply make candles for trade is ok too. In fact modular design makes a lot of sense now that there are so many mods you can choose from. If later you want to add functions, you can always make a new mod that includes what you already have.

Creating design tools can only be view as a way of achieving your design goals. The major risk in designing is to make choices without working out how they impact the game, and what role you want the item to play. You need to think about what you want the mod to add, or change in the game. Nothing wrong with it being just a nice building.

If its decorative, then no need for a production chain, if its to make an aspect of the game different then the elements must fit that goal. If its to fix a problem you see with the game, then that is what it is should be made for. One thing to avoid is to be limited by what others have done, harmonizing is one thing, but it should not be seen as a roadblock.

As a designer you will never be able to fit your mods to every gameplay style, its up to the players to choose what they use according to their style. You should always follow your heart, not the rantings of anyone, including me. Many who comment do so with their game style or wish list in mind, nothing wrong with that, but its not a way to design for a game.


brads3

DENIS, i like the idea of uniformity in values. that can be helpful.CC had medical issues with some of thier crew early in the year.now and then KRAY does come in to toss us a fruit basket.
    i don't think candles will give much heat for firewood. but we could use the wax for canning and preserving foods with some pottery.again this is historically correct but doesn't help in the game.if we ever figure out how to use household items it would add a whole new level to the game.
   i'll brainstorm a minute. can we make a church give negative happiness? it adds to happiness but can we take away from it?then we build a chuch or other building that if it isn't stocked,happiness goes down. when we keep it supplied,happiness increases.not the best fix but a workaround.

Denis de la Rive

Quote from: brads3 on October 03, 2017, 07:20:18 PM
    i don't think candles will give much heat for firewood. but we could use the wax for canning and preserving foods with some pottery.again this is historically correct but doesn't help in the game.if we ever figure out how to use household items it would add a whole new level to the game.
   i'll brainstorm a minute. can we make a church give negative happiness? it adds to happiness but can we take away from it?then we build a chuch or other building that if it isn't stocked,happiness goes down. when we keep it supplied,happiness increases.not the best fix but a workaround.

You can't make this kind of building, the function is absent from Banished, and who would build a negative happiness generating building if you don't need it. Things like candles are best used as building materials or for trade. If you want to use beeswax in production that is another question.

In CC you can use candles in the fire bundle production chain which is counted as fuel, just like firewood or coal. In Banished, burn, (how long 1 fuel last), is a function of buildings so there is no difference between types, only on how much fuel is needed, and the value of the what you use. Things like charcoal, (in CC), are more effective because of the better output number per log as compared to firewood.

Tom Sawyer

To tell bannies to light a couple of candles when freezing in their homes sounds like a joke to me. The best use I can think of is to bring light into a mine but lamp oil is a better choice for this in my opinion. So probably beeswax and candles will always be odd resources in Banished. It's a bit like with these feathers from chickens. They were brought into the game without a need and then funny ideas were created to get rid of it again and to not find barns filled up with useless stuff. What I mean is.. who says that we have to have beeswax just because we have bees for honey? ;)

The Pilgrim

As far as vanilla banished goes, yes trade only items could be considered useless, BUT... If you look at the setting of CC and other Colonial era mods, the whole point of colonies was to produce trade, so there, it fits perfectly.

Tom Sawyer

You mean the New World was discovered to get all the beeswax? From the Candle Colony. ;D

Kimbolton

Remember early on when people used to build the old greenhouse just to get those seedlings for trade? Well some people anyway. It was a tough world back then what with starvation death marches and all.

From a modding perspective it is probably different but I just like the extra buildings. So give me the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker. I like having various buildings that add to the realism of my cities. I'm looking forward to EB's shoemaker because it is nice to have a variety of buildings in my commercial district. I wouldn't mind a banker, a hatter, etc. If people don't like them they don't have to use them.  Me, I like making candles. There are a lot of production chains though and sometimes I forget. I had a CC mine go dry on me recently and I had not a candle produced. Had to hurry and get that chain up quickly.

What you guys decide is fine. I just love all the new things being added. :)       

brads3

KIMBO,i like how KID made different "shops" with the wildwest mod.the shops work as houses but gives you the look of more.like the postoffice,undertaker,land office,etc.was a neat way to add that extra realism.

Kimbolton

Hi Brads,

Yes! I should have mentioned that because I thought it was such a great idea too. You are right in that it adds to the realism and you always need housing and it is a clever way to do it. More of that sort would be wonderful. Also some of his houses had that store front look with out any shop or business name. I know I stuck one of EB's signs on one of those and made it a Hunting Goods store. :) Very cool idea by Kid and the signs by EB also.   

DesoPL

Is there anything i miss in that set? Somehow Kid's gothic farm gived me idea about addon for dock buildings like is in CC and eventually.

Butcher.
Well.
Bigger houses, something like is in RK's medieval ones.
Cementary.
Church.
Some decorations like shields, flags etc.
Mentioned before towers.

Denis de la Rive

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 04, 2017, 03:23:14 AM
To tell bannies to light a couple of candles when freezing in their homes sounds like a joke to me. The best use I can think of is to bring light into a mine but lamp oil is a better choice for this in my opinion. So probably beeswax and candles will always be odd resources in Banished. It's a bit like with these feathers from chickens. They were brought into the game without a need and then funny ideas were created to get rid of it again and to not find barns filled up with useless stuff. What I mean is.. who says that we have to have beeswax just because we have bees for honey? ;)

Indeed just because it exists in real life is not a reason to add it to Banished, you need to design within the limits of the world physics. One of these is that you can't destroy goods.