Gather our forces!

[kid1293]

So, right now it's -

More insert points for sound, animation ... everything

Better zoom with better tilt too.

Resources needed when building - up to 6 (two rows)

Clothing levels increased one or two.

Requirement option. A production building continually needs resources to function.
Be it - pen and paper - firewood - fishing net - else no production.

And is discussed - release trading post code separate to be used for other buildings (barn, stockpile)

---

This is the main body of an email I sent to Luke a week ago.

We are a thriving community which brings life to a very static game.
The basic version lacks several options which could easily be sent
with the gamekit. We have NO information (except a chicken) about
animation and what is needed to make it work in game.
There are (what I know) very few insert points in the code for events
like sound or animation.
I guess all things work on a basic level and when it is explained
it will be obvious to us how to do it. (or not if it is impossible)

Please consider that modders are supporting a good game.
Do not stop supporting the modders!

I write this here because some wanted it to be public. OK.

This is a way to rally our forces and maybe make Luke (who made the game) listen
to requests from modders. We all have something we wish could be better in the game.
Some want more complex functions in the game and modders try all the time to break
the limitations.
If we can sort out some of the really useful ideas, we can present them to Luke with
suggestions on how we want them done.

I know he does not answer emails and maybe Banished is a passed stage in his code-writing
but it can not be too hard for him to give small hints on the use of the modkit / more examples
to clarify what can be done.

A game is as good as its popularity.

[kid1293]

First out is a wish (from Necora) about more diversified clothing.
We now have rags/warm/warmer but could need more options.

More options to workplaces (also from Necora).
Make them not buildable if certain things are not available.

Luke has provided some code for nomads arriving -

Code Select Expand


int _requiredPopulation = 8;
ComponentDescription _requiredStructures
[
"Template/Market.rsc"
"Template/TradingPost.rsc"
]

This shows that certain demands have to be met before an event happens.

Why not some more of these '_required' options to make a more interesting gameplay?
Available tools and resources before you can build a certain building.

And sounds. Right now there is no way to hook a sound to certain events.
It could be useful with a global variable for adding sound to buildings.
Not like ambient background but specific. Church bells when you are near a church,
train sound when near RedKetchup's stations.

[embx61]

Thanks for making it public Kid
Not a big issue doing it through PM but I think the more people chime in the better ideas we can get together to present to Luke.

And players are now able to chime in too.

Yeah, the clothing levels should be increased by maybe two levels. (IMHO as a hobby programmer myself not too hard to get in by Luke)

The tradingpost using code that the player can tell the game how much of a certain good they want to store there.
The only thing is that Bannies are not able to take it. Use that code for storage buildings but change it to allow the Bannies to take it if they need it out of storage.

This way a better infrastructure is available to the players.

[Bartender]

First of all I'd like to say that I think it's a wonderful initiative to talk about this as a community. I can imagine that any developer would be more likely to respond to one clear request that is backed by the whole community, rather than to a bunch of emails from individual people. Furthermore, it would actually give both us and Mr. Luke a good idea of what is desired by the community.

As for what kind of things we would like to see, I think those are going to fit into two categories: actual changes to the game that give us modders more options, and more (or better) explanations of the options that we already have.

Personally I think that we should be rather careful with asking for the former. As we don't know anything about the part of the program that is not visible to us, it's hard to tell how much work a certain change to it would be for Mr. Luke. Sending him a whole list of demands that could take him weeks, if not months to implement, is therefore probably not a good idea. If we instead would make a small selection of highly supported suggestions for changes, we might have more chances of some of these actually being honoured.

Concidering the need for explanations, I think there is much to be gained. There are major parts of the code that are difficult (if not impossible) to understand completely without knowing how they are handled by the program. As Mr. Luke regularly writes lenghty blog posts about his work, I think it would not be unreasonable to ask for a few that would focus on explaining some of these elements. However, I do think that here too it would be better to ask for a few much needed explanations rather than sending a three page wishlist.

[Abandoned]

@kid1293 good idea, I agree with info for added sounds, church bells, train sounds, and a fog horn, to start with

I was just going to ask if something could be done by modders or if Luke would have to do it, that is if the town statistic info box, that is now larger because of the added new flags, could have a miniaturize button added to it.

Closer camera zoom would be good.

I would like a reset button for the achievements and an option to achieve with or without the use of mods would be nice.

What I would most like to see is a way to get crop seeds other than waiting for the boatman to bring them, an on land crop seed vendor.  Even with specialized trading posts and expensive special orders it is a long wait to get "needed" seeds.  The last thing I would want is for the bannies to take my trade goods out of the trading post, there are tons of markets, stockpiles, and storage buildings in all shapes and sizes and specialties made just for them.

Oh no, added sounds and a crop seed vendor would force me to update my game. 



Edit:  Also see if there is a way to fix all the red compatibility warnings for simple shared resources in the mod list.

[Necora]

@kid1293 thanks for bringing this discussion up.

I agree with the request for a closer zoom, with the quality of the buildings that are produced now, I don't see why we can't see them closer to appreciate all of the work we put into them.

Regarding the things I mentioned in the PM, let me clarify about the building requirements, because that wasn't exactly what I meant. I do like the idea of requirements as you state, like you can only get nomads with the town hall and trading post. It would make late game more interesting, although I know there are some people who are not to fond of the idea of such 'unlockable' buildings. But that wasn't quite what I meant. I was thinking more of the actual work done in a building, and more interesting use of tools. For example, at the moment, bannies need a generic tool to work more efficiently and these tools last a certain time before needing to be replaced. However, they are just a generic tool. It would be way more interesting if you had to produce specific tools to do a specific job.

Take the new fishing boats I introduced as an example. A fisher needs traps to catch lobster. Yet there is no real way to incorporate this into the game mechanic. I have it now so that the traps are built by a fishing supplier, and are then used as a build requirement for the fishing boat (along with the boat itself). The work place is a boat that lasts a few years, catches a load of lobster, and then needs to be replaced. Now, what I would really want, is for the traps to be consumable. At the moment, I could make it so that 1 trap is consumed and 20 lobster are produced. However, it is pretty un realistic and a lot of traps will be used, plus you have trouble balancing it as it is a long chain (wood = trap = lobster) where the value or output needs to increase respecting this. It would be better if the trap was a type of tool that a fisherman uses for a certain amount of time before it breaks and they need a new one. So it acts like the current in game tool, only instead of a generic tool for all professions, it is a specific tool needed by specific buildings, and we can add different tools depending on the building.

A fisherman needs a trap or nets or lines. A farmer needs plows or horses. A hunter needs guns or bows, a trapper needs traps, a gatherer needs baskets etc. etc.

I think that would make the game far more interesting, give us more buildings, more realistic things in the blacksmith (like tackle, horse shoes etc.) rather than just generic steel tools for all.


Also, something that I think is quite important, would be to change the way that the high/low create values are associated with the rawmaterial template. I think it would be much better if the high/low create values were associated with the building and the naturalresource template files instead. This would make balancing complicated chains and adding difficulty to simple chains much easier. At the moment, there is 1 apple resource. But because it is from the orchard, the high/low create value is 50/65. When you make this apple from a natural resource, it means that every time an apple natural resource is harvested, 50/65 apples are created. It took a lot of work to balance that down. Same with flax and maple sap, they were far too low for a natural resource, and I don't think I can possibly increase them. But we can't make another flax or apple, because it will be incompatible with any other mod that uses them. It would be far better if you could say 'OrchardApple' = 50/65 apples in the apple orchard template file, then 'NaturalApple' = 20/25 in the naturalresourceapple file. In the above example of lobster, the only way I can increase the amount of lobster produced from 1 trap would be to increase the high/low create of the lobster template file. But then that would mess it up for any other mod like CC that uses lobster. I could make my own lobster, but then we have multiple instances of essentially the same thing (still trade value 1, still 1 protein, still 1 lobster). Or I have to have an intermediate and fish a generic fish which is separated into species at a fish monger, but that just adds even more steps to this.

[embx61]

All very good and valid points Necora.

The game is limited in quite some areas.
But this is not the fault of Luke the Developer himself as he pictured a survival game in his mind and developed Banished out of it.

I said in a post a while ago I would like to know what Luke is thinking about the success of Banished play/and modding wise.
It would be so nice he would chime in here so once in a while to talk about that experience.
Even once a month to just answer some questions would be a nice gesture.

But beside that:
The problems came in when huge mods were created and tons of goods, crops, and chain building/upgrades were developed by modders.

The mods technically outgrew the basics of the game and that is why we are in the state we are in.

Luke gave us, besides bug fixes, 10 more flags/limits what was IMHO very much needed and I, as I am certain many other modders as well, are grateful to Luke.
Those new Flags/Limits are already a good improvement and so he not completely forgotten about Banished.
The huge amount of mods, and therefor partially responsible for the success od Banished,  created for Banished is IMHO something a Single Indie Developer can only dream of.

But of course more can be done. It all depends how much time Luke wants to spent on Banished while he is also working on his new game.
Luke once said that sometimes he needs a break from the game he is working on and maybe that is were he can go back and make some needed changes to banished to make it even better then it currently is. I am a hobby programmer (Sadly not C++ but RAD Studio Delphi) and I know some functions/procedures can be added to Banished without that much of a hassle.
I said this before that adding the 10 new limits/flags is code wise not that hard or time consuming to do.

The best idea is to come together as modders/players and compile a short list of the most wanted features we want to see implemented. Ofcourse we modders and players alike want it ALL but we must be cautious as a too big a list will most probably just turn Luke off where a small but very carefully chosen list of features he will be able to do it.

Like I said before asking for animated buildings is I think just too much of a hassle to implement for Luke but some features where we modders can make the most out of it should be certainly feasible as long as Luke want to spent some time on it.

[Discrepancy]

I've given this some thought,
Necora's idea is a good one. Professions should have different tool needs. Right now the only thing making them different to each other is in text, sprite and death likelihood.
Also the natural resource production rates are a good point.

A simple thing I would like to see the game allow, is buildings to have more building resource requirements. So a town hall could require 5-6 or more different construction resources.

More ability to alter the behavior and needs of the citizens in general.

[RedKetchup]

the things i wish to be fixed : stupid "false" red warning.
the game has already have an "hashtag" control module. when you load a more recent version of a mod, it automatically detects it. it tells you "hey you are loading a more recent version of this X mods!!!" it sees it.

the thing i wish is : when the mods between them has a "conflict" and see there is 2+ mentions of the same resource... it should process an "hashtag" verification. and if it happends this is exactly the same code/image/resources... it should "flag" it another color instead of "red".
yellow would be great instead, if not simply "green".


other thing, yeah maybe flags are great, but more specially for "limits" or to bypass the fact a new ressource has been added later in a later mod...
i always wished to have the ability to target a "specific resource" instead to target a specific flag.
both would be great.
but if we wish to target a specific item instead of a flag, it would be more specifically more customized as we wish.
example : take a soap and go to bath house and get health... instead to go to apothecary and make a "soap" infusion and drink it ("Health" flag)
or example: take a pottery or a jewel and "use it" "drink it" at a pub or tavern because it has been "flagged as luxury" :S


and third: yeah, using more than 3 maximum resource for a future building which is very limited now.... would be great !

[Bartender]

The maximum of 3 resources for a building is an annoying limit indeed, and something that would probably be very easy to change.

Another thing I noticed that I find a shame is that we can't have buildings consume resources without them giving a produced resource in return. Now at first it might seem strange to desire this, but it's something that happens in the real world all the time. Schools need books and pens and paper to function, but they don't use those to produce anything physical. A baker would need wood to keep the fires burning, but would only use wheat to bake his bread. From a gameplay perspective, the only ways in which we can currently 'consume' end-products of a resource chain is by having them as construction materials, as food, or by selling them. For a lot of resource types, the first two options don't make sense, and the third option means that they are not a necessity and thus not very attractive to the player. Being able to set resources as requirements for the functioning of a building would give us another way of consuming resources in a way that actually gives incentive to the player to produce them.

[embx61]

Red, you are right about flags still being a limited factor.
But I am afraid that doing it on the material side means a complete overhaul of the code.

The flags/limits are not bad. It is that just way too many resources/materials where added to the game.
I understand why it is done because it is just our nature, many players want it all but the game is not up to it.

How many crops are there these days?
How many resources what are not much more then for trading?

Sure many buildings are a please to look at, but a lot of it is artificial gameplay wise.

Some chains make sense in the real world, Bakery, using Flour and whatever to make an end product what gets eaten by a bannie. worth 3 for example
But that bannie is just as happy with just a jug of water(No nutri) or eating raw wheat. (worth 1)

Anno 1401 had four or five levels where better products where needed so the people could advance to the next level. Banished is not written with that in mind.

The basics of the game are too limited for all those chains.
I truly believe that even Luke is amazed by what all the mods have done to the game but I am afraid, beside some small changes/improvements, not much going to be done to enhance the gameplay a lot.
It would require a Banished 2 with modding support added from the start.

BL is working on a game I believe but developing a game from scratch (Even if some use a Engine like Cry ,Real, or Unity) is a daunting project and will take many, many man hours.

[Necora]

@Bartender that is exactly what I was getting at with the specialised tool idea, only you explained it better!

[kid1293]

@Necora - @Bartender
I would happily have a requirement for buildings, it makes sense.
How complicated is this for Luke to develop?
It would probably need an overhaul of the graphic menu of the building.
But since he is doing most that stuff modular I think he can do that rather easily.

Then he needs a 'prerequisite flag' attached to the code. And an absolute must is
that the flag governs a group of items.
How often should these requirements be updated? Once when built or more often?
So, two variables, one for items and one for time.

While we're talking about buildings. One or two more resource limits would do a lot!
edit - why not three? Would make a nice double row of resources in the build menu.

Can we go to Luke and wish for an overhaul of the resources needed for buildings?
It's a good point we make this as a primary wish and focus on this.

Two more things - closer zoom (just change a variable in the code)
and asking if he is willing to share some information now and then on his homepage.

I'd like to hear more voices!! We need every convincing voice we can put into this.

[Bartender]

@Necora Yea now that I read it again it indeed boils down to the same idea . My focus was more on a prerequisite for the building itself, but I think your idea of a specific tool for everything is more elegant. A lot of professions now don't even have a tool type associated with them, so having a specific tool for each profession would be more consistent than the current situation.

I don't know how easy/hard it would be to implement this though. In my idea, it would be something like enabling the posibility to have the 'consumeproduce' part of a building template accept entries that only have a 'consume' part, which is currently impossible. I still don't know what kind of changes would need to be made to the game code for this ofcourse, but it might be possible to do this without having to design a completely new mechanic.

[QueryEverything]

Not directly an answer, but, a suggestion as well.

I know many developers also gain more benefit from having Q & A events, a way to chat with modders and players, and a way to get a few things sorted out, and perhaps also prioritise, and also, a way for them to get 'tips' etc handed out and notated in a way that may have been harder to do than before, and it's a good way to also come up with some brainstorming ideas.  It's a fabulous tool, and often very under utilised.

So, I propose this - (yes, please don't suggest reddit, I am aware of reddit, and it's great successes, but for what I have in mind, it's not worth it as Luke would need a transcriber to take his thoughts to 'paper', voice to text mod).  A voice Q & A.
I've run extremely successful dev workshops & Q & A's using Ventrilo; Teamspeak & Discord.
I also have my own servers of the above, so access wouldn't be an issue at all, and I can white label it for Banished for the day.

Luke doesn't need to spend hours and hours typing up blogs etc, he can sit in his comfy chair and a mic and talk off the cuff.
A voice to text mod can be used to record all of the chat, even a mod that can record the voice session.

The idea:
Invite Luke to an event, ask him to choose this platform of choice, and a time of choice.
Nominate moderators, an Emcee, and a person who reads the questions from the 'audience'.
Modders are invited as 'modders', and will be able to ask their tech questions etc
Players will be invited to participate, and ask some questions.

Even voices will be heard, a standardised question sheet will be used (taken from these ideas etc), but more can be asked on the fly.

For the ones that will be 'known' upfront, a copy will be sent to Luke (just like here has been proposed), so he knows what's coming up, and for the technical code items he will need to address in writing anyway so that the code can be given out correctly.

My idea is certainly not replacing this one at all (in fact this has my full support), but, also as a way of bringing Luke into the community a bit more, and when he has a couple of hours where he can sit in his jimjam jammies (pyjamas), a cup of choice, and some time with his community. 

As for what the OP was about:
- a way to stop all the RED loading
- a way to have animation explained
- a way to nominate by Flag/Limit OR by item (eg:  pig = pork, sausages, etc, rather than Animal/Food (protein))
- easier modkit use options
- an easier way to organise the mods (up/down & top); bottom; alphabetical; by modder
- better water system, or at least allow modding for irrigation systems in farming districts, utilising water sources better
- terraforming tools for players, or better resources for modders to make a better terraform tool (nice water edges etc)

I am sure I will think of more, but for the most part I second nearly all of the above already mentioned.