I think making labourers carry things was a poor design decision.
Labourers already act like retards with ADHD when collecting resources. They constantly cross the map to perform a single task at a faraway site, then return to where they started to do a single task and so on - I'm sure everyone here knows the drill.
Entrusting those morons with a second, different type of responsibility wasn't a good idea. I also don't quite understand why there are so many different classes of people doing haulage work - labourers, traders, vendors, plus others when you use certain mods. Wouldn't it be simpler to have a single class of porters, and the ability to assign them to specific buildings?
I'm starting to suspect this was done on purpose to make the game more difficult. Then again, I hear this game is rooted in medieval times, when most people were superstitious morons, and the ones that weren't were superstitious psychos.
But maybe it all comes together in big cities? Could someone enlighten me? I yet have to reach a population above 50. I'm playing exclusively Adam & Eve, so it takes time.
Sorry for the long post, I'll sweeten it with this titbit: had a four-year-old settlement wiped out by an outbreak of mumps. Hospitals can be useful even if not accepting nomads, it seems.
Lovely game, very addictive. If I could only find a way to turn off the chant and the humming...
The Adam & Eve start does change things a bit. Normally, you'd have a larger number of laborers available to you far earlier than what you're getting with that start. There's always a balancing act at the start, but starting with only one couple extends that balancing act out quite a bit longer, I would imagine.
Why are they crossing the map? What's over there?
Carrying stuff is the laborers' primary job. Clearing resources for you is secondary. Approach it that way and things might improve. Clearing resources is meant to be a part of expansion, but not necessarily a full-time activity that ties up all your laborers. There is more than one way to acquire every resource - sometimes those other ways are better. Yes, you can do it by clearing land, but if you don't have a lot of laborers to handle it, it's going to have a negative effect on the overall efficiency.
When clearing land, select one red square (or less) per laborer if you want them to get done and get back to town quickly.
Leave time in between clearing jobs, not only so they can do important stuff like eat, visit the herbalist, have a bit of idling time, and see to their main jobs, but also to keep your housing from getting bunched up. If you build houses while you've got all your laborers working on one side of town, those new houses will initially be all builders and laborers. Housing should be optimized for a functioning town, not for whatever bit of land you're clearing at any particular moment.
It gets better, I promise. Once you have 50+ laborers, it's so much easier. When you've got 100+, you can clear out huge chunks of land in one trip. Yes, larger towns present their own challenges, but they are different challenges that you haven't had the change to experience yet.
As mentioned above, it gets better with time when you have more hands on deck. That doesn't really fix the problem, it just eases it because there are more labourers. I also suggest to not pay too much attention to it, as it can get annoying to watch one labourer walk halfway across the map, break up one piece of stone or iron, and then walk back to eat or whatever, without carrying anything with him. Then another person comes over to pick it up, without doing anything else while there.
Like all things programming-wise, it's a balancing act, and there is logic behind it that decide all their actions. But take it too far, and they'll be picking up and hacking stuff despite being hungry or having other important tasks, and then starve while out there (which was a huuuuuuge problem in the early versions of the game on big maps).
Okay, I don't think I've been clear enough.
Say there are a couple of trees marked for cutting in spot A. X tiles away, in spot B, there are a couple of stones marked for cutting. Labourer goes to spot A, chops up a tree, leaves the resulting logs to walk to spot B, smash a single stone, leave the cut stone there, go back to Spot A, pick up the logs, cut down another tree and leave the logs there, go to Spot B - get it? And there are interesting variations too, for example midway they can just drop everything on the ground because the game in its wisdom decided they should become fishermen, even though the fishing dock is on the other side of the town, and there already are other labourers over there.
It's so silly I suspect it's WAD, to make the game more difficult by wasting over 50% of a labourer's working time. And did I mnetion that quite often, while they're doing this little dance, they're carrying half a dozen tools or coats that are desperately needed?
Quote from: michaelrym on October 11, 2014, 09:55:10 AMI think making labourers carry things was a poor design decision.
Who then should carry these things? Your professionals (instead of producing goods)? Your farmers (instead of seeding, bringing in the harvest)? Your vendors (instead of picking up/delivering to/from barns and stock piles?
If any, the "poor" decision was to start the initial tutorials with something like "Draw a large rectangle, then click on 'Collect all raw materials'" - which to me is the worst one can do at the start of a new game. At early game it is much better to concentrate building needed structures with the few materials you can gather close at hand, instead of sending all your people off on long hauls to clear-cut huge areas and bring in large amounts of materials you don't yet have a use for... ;)
If
many peeps
regularly take long hikes to pick up whatever, there is something amiss with the planning and/or layout of the town...
*
Sure, there will always be some "Little Idiot" with his own agenda (seemingly)... but this should not be the regular way of things.
Personally I have no problems at all with laborers; I think they are quite reliable. I find they always do exactly what I tell them to do; if what they end up doing is stupid, I figure that was on me.
The priority tool and the "undo resource collection" tool both are extremely effective.
I do understand your frustration with the little do-si-do they can sometimes do, but that is just a feature of the laborer queue mechanic.
Yeah well, maybe my irritation with labourers has something to do with the Adam & Eve start, where every little bit counts. You have only two people working, and when they waste so much time it's infuriating.
However, having watched those two peeps plod back and forth (I don't speed the game up; I play for relaxation, so it's single speed all the way) I'm still of the opinion a single class dedicated to hauling stuff around would have worked better. IMO labourers should have been restricted to collecting resources (depositing stuff they'd collected, not one load of 3 logs at a time but 9).
It may be that I'll change my mind once I've actually managed to build a sizeable town with several hundred inhabitants.
Might it be impertinent on my part to point out that it apparently hasn't been relaxing for you to try to start with only two people and no supplies? ;)
The biggest aggregation I've been able to get so far is around 125 people. I've noticed a few inefficiencies that drive me to distraction at times, but what the hell, it's not my program.
One of the things that irritates me no end is the failure of the AI to choose the shortest path to something. When I have a big construction program with resources being collected in the vicinity, I often lay down a new stockpile close to the work. The sprites ignore these for the most part and use the original stockpile. It takes a long time before the new stockpile is recognized and used. The AI really is an oxymoron.
@slinkI relax by playing games on extra difficulty. Takes my mind off the real world, you know.
@ nonny moose
Interesting. I have the opposite problem. My moronic subjects will carry all sorts of stuff to the construction stockpile instead of the main one - at times I swear the distance is actually longer by several tiles.
I tell you, it's WAD. The guy who developed the game all by himself is a brilliant guy. Maybe he also smokes something wicked and had some the night he was doing the labourer's AI. And next day said to himself, what the hell, I've been working on this thing for two years, f it, I'll leave it in and then laugh at the posts of players trying to decipher the workings of the labourers.
@michaelrym: Then being irritated and infuriated should be something you enjoy, not complain about. ;)
I'm getting too old ... WAD???
WAD="Working As Designed"
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 12, 2014, 08:24:21 AM
The biggest aggregation I've been able to get so far is around 125 people. I've noticed a few inefficiencies that drive me to distraction at times, but what the hell, it's not my program.
One of the things that irritates me no end is the failure of the AI to choose the shortest path to something. When I have a big construction program with resources being collected in the vicinity, I often lay down a new stockpile close to the work. The sprites ignore these for the most part and use the original stockpile. It takes a long time before the new stockpile is recognized and used. The AI really is an oxymoron.
I think that when a laborer reaches the top of the "available" queue, he is matched up with the project at the top of the "task" queue. The task includes what is being picked up, where it is now, and where it is to be taken to. So when a pile of freshly-harvested logs or stone shows up lying on the ground, it already has baked into it what stockpile it is going to. If you build a stockpile after that, makes no difference.
Of course I have no proof for this, but it would explain the maddening laborer behavior that we all have seen, over and over.
@ slink
You win. How's that?
@ salamander: Sorry, I should have made that clear. It's a good acronym - note the pejorative connotation that's appropriate for the feeling one has when encountering one of those things in a game.
oh god it reminds me the famous WAI from Blizzard.com ^^ Working as intended. ^^
Quote from: irrelevant on October 12, 2014, 10:27:54 AM
I think that when a laborer reaches the top of the "available" queue, he is matched up with the project at the top of the "task" queue. The task includes what is being picked up, where it is now, and where it is to be taken to. So when a pile of freshly-harvested logs or stone shows up lying on the ground, it already has baked into it what stockpile it is going to. If you build a stockpile after that, makes no difference.
Of course I have no proof for this, but it would explain the maddening laborer behavior that we all have seen, over and over.
This is my experience too. If you are to build a new building out in the sticks, put down the stockpile FIRST, then the building. However, make sure the stockpile you put down is in the clear, so it's instantly created without labourers having to clear trees, undergrowth or ores. Then they will usually use the temporary stockpile without problems.
I get annoyed at times at labourers on clearing tasks far away coming and going with next to no work, hacking up a rock and going back with nothing in their hands, or maybe 2 iron/stone. Would be great if they had slightly better concentration levels so they could "see" the next pile of (sometimes already cleared) stone/iron two feet away and carry that back home as well.
Am sure something could be worked on here in the hardcoded AI, but as mentioned, there is a balancing act. Often there is cold, they get cold out on such tasks, and keep hacking up stones to carry back 9 instead of 2, and some may die. So where do we draw the line? I certainly prefer to have workers going back and forth, being inefficient, instead of dying because they took too long to collect stuff while out in the wildlands. We could also take the realism aspect into account, to excuse current behaviour. Would you really be capable of walking off into the nothingness, then carry back 100 kg of whatever for another 1 month back?
I agree with
@irrelevant and
@Pangaea. They have their path set when they take on the task. You could circumvent that by marking the ill-advised final target for demolition, but then they would simply drop what they were carrying and return to civilization. Another one would take on the task, possibly with a better final target. Or possibly not.
Quote from: michaelrym on October 12, 2014, 10:28:48 AM
@ salamander: Sorry, I should have made that clear. It's a good acronym - note the pejorative connotation that's appropriate for the feeling one has when encountering one of those things in a game.
Please remember, for some of us, English is our second or (in my case) our third language, and more than 2 not understandable word in one sentence ought to be forbidden! ;) In this case it might be excused, being directed to a special (I hope ) good English-speaking person.
Now to what i wanted to say.
I have noticed that the labourers are much more relable, doing mainly what you told them to do (except for some "getting something to eat", visiting the herbalist", idling......... - stuff :-\) if you do not have "too many balls in the air at the same time". If I play with a slow speed (I normally switch between 2X and 5X) I have too many ideas, giving too many commissions away, forgetting that the tasks will be completed one by one in the order I ordered the things to be done. And I often really do not know, what my labourers (and builders) are doing.
So my advice is, eather play in a faster speed (there is not so much time to give too many commissions away) or play really slow; let one thing be finished before the next is ordered.
A tangent here, but it's interesting that we have so different play styles as well as building styles. For example, I too play at 2x (not 5x though, unless I'm testing something with a new game, where I can go to 25x and 50x too), but apart from building sprees, I rarely have all that much going on. Think it's fun to just watch the town and the people going about their business, check out the Town Hall for statistics, inventory and so forth, see if anything is amiss, such as the food situation (graphs!), and then skim around the edges of town to plan what to do there. But in general I like 'slow' games and play them slow and meticulously. Probably not many people who like to play Settlers 2 on 1x and watch a forester hack down a tree, carry it home, and then watch that tree being carried from 'flag' to 'flag' ;D ;D
in reference to all the acronyms that infest this computing world of ours, I am starting a new association called Delete Acronyms Now (or DAN for short).
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 12, 2014, 03:35:15 PM
in reference to all the acronyms that infest this computing world of ours, I am starting a new association called Delete Acronyms Now (or DAN for short).
;D ;D
I recall having a bit of a crusade against the overuse of acronyms on CivFanatics. As a new player, it was nigh on impossible to understand what people were writing about, made even more confusing by the same acronym sometimes having different meanings. One example, GA could mean Golden Age and Great Artist. "I used a GA to start a GA" was not uncommon >:(
Quote from: Pangaea on October 12, 2014, 05:30:19 PM
I recall having a bit of a crusade against the overuse of acronyms on CivFanatics. As a new player, it was nigh on impossible to understand what people were writing about, made even more confusing by the same acronym sometimes having different meanings. One example, GA could mean Golden Age and Great Artist. "I used a GA to start a GA" was not uncommon >:(
You too, eh? I'm not a new player - been playing Civ games since just before IV came out - and I still have trouble deciphering some threads over there.
I'm not a fan of any but the most obvious acronyms. Because I dislike them, they don't "stick" and so I tend to forget what they mean after a short time. Then different acronyms for different games, not to mention the other areas of my life... I google acronyms frequently.
i think i cant start to use the GA lol
Great Artist !!!!!!! Hell yeah !
Quote from: Mahnogard on October 12, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
I google acronyms frequently.
That's the only way I ever know what anyone is talking about.
@ Nilla
English is my second language, too. Come on, it's not that hard to Google an unknown word. Improves your vocabulary and so on.
To return to the labourers: I watched a guy carry fish from a fishing dock to storage. One case at a time. On trip number five or six, he broke the mold by actually gathering up four cases. He was so proud of this achievement that he took a break by taking a month-long stroll through the woods to chop up a single tree (and leave the logs there, of course). Then he returned to the fishing dock and made another half a dozen trips to storage, carrying a single case of fish every time.
It's a pity the little people can't talk. I'd have liked to talk to this labourer, I suspect he would have had me in stitches.
something i missed from the Ceasar's series... the citizens were telling you their moods, i think today it was awesome.
It saddens me that "google" has become a verb :( Don't people know how they operate, nor care about privacy?
Quote from: Mahnogard on October 12, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
Quote from: Pangaea on October 12, 2014, 05:30:19 PM
I recall having a bit of a crusade against the overuse of acronyms on CivFanatics. As a new player, it was nigh on impossible to understand what people were writing about, made even more confusing by the same acronym sometimes having different meanings. One example, GA could mean Golden Age and Great Artist. "I used a GA to start a GA" was not uncommon >:(
You too, eh? I'm not a new player - been playing Civ games since just before IV came out - and I still have trouble deciphering some threads over there.
I'm not a fan of any but the most obvious acronyms. Because I dislike them, they don't "stick" and so I tend to forget what they mean after a short time. Then different acronyms for different games, not to mention the other areas of my life... I google acronyms frequently.
Even after a very long time there, it was sometimes difficult to understand what people were talking about. I got
really into Civ 4, read most of the guides, tons of threads, even played competitively for a little while, but after months and months of playing the game, reading the forum daily, it was still hard to know what people were on about at times, and I compared it with reading declassified military documents. Some would even use acronyms for stuff like river-side farms and stuff like that. Guess they saved about two seconds writing that post, and in return people who weren't inbred in the forum for years on end would go WTF?
Would drive me up the wall at times :D
It's a great game, though, and I'm sure I'll go back to playing it one day. Civ 5 can take a running jump off a cliff for all I care, but I loved Civ 4 8)
@ Pangea
If you care about privacy, throw out your mobile phone and never go online... I made a couple of complimentary comments about Snowden a few years back, and for the next year my computer was trawled by a spy agency bot every time I went online.
Yeah, Google turning into a verb is sad. But personally, I'm more bothered by the apostrophitis epidemic: people putting apostrophes before every single 's', even when it merely indicates a plural. I'm not sure what's going on there - when I was learning English, it took me about thirty seconds to understand that it's= it is, that 'its' is the possessive case, and is the exception to the rule that possessive is marked by an apostrophe.
Come to think of it I shouldn't capitalise Google when using it as a verb. Come to think of it, I shouldn't be using it as a verb at all. Come to think of it, I should... (long silence)
The phone is as unconnected as it can be, and up to a few months ago I had a probably 10 years old phone :D Also use some addons and other software to prevent the worst intrusions/trackings, but I'm under no illusions.
The treatment of Snowden in the US right now is disgusting, but hopefully he'll get more respect in the future for the sacrifice he made for the betterment of society and the strengthening of privacy rights. Some of the stuff that has come out is jawdropping.
Those errors annoy me too, but not nearly as much as "would of" and such. Then you have the people who won't use a comma or period if their life depended on it. I'm not sure if it's the type of sites I visit or not, but the level of English literacy seems to have gone through the floor over the last decade :( The odd thing is that foreign people seem to be better at English than natives.
Couldn't agree more about the level of English literacy going through the floor. Another pet peeve of mine is the custom of misspelling first names in order to appear original.
All right, enough, got to get back to all the 'shoulds' awaiting me today.
English is my first language and as such I appreciate its dynamic quality. The last time I looked, over 10 years ago, the OED was up to 800,000 entries, some of them very technical and esoteric. Finding google as a verb doesn't disturb me in the least.
I also have a smattering of three French dialects, a tiny amount of Spanish, German and Italian, and a pretty good handle on vernacular Latin (not learned in school).
Now, about the wandering labourers. I think the explanation of the queueing is probably the correct one. The interesting thing about this program is the meticulous attention to detail in the sprites.
Quote from: Pangaea on October 13, 2014, 12:57:24 AM
It saddens me that "google" has become a verb :( Don't people know how they operate, nor care about privacy?
--------------
It's a great game, though, and I'm sure I'll go back to playing it one day. Civ 5 can take a running jump off a cliff for all I care, but I loved Civ 4 8)
I know exactly how they operate, and they are the least of my concerns. But that's my situation, everyone has to choose for themselves.
As for Civ, I'm the opposite. I love 3 and 5, absolutely hated 4. Last year I ended up with it due to a bundle purchase, so I recently thought, "You know, time changes perception, so I should install it and give it another shot." So I did, and I still don't like it. I don't dislike it as vehemently as before, but I don't want to play it.
Back to laborers -
Quote from: A Nonny Moose on October 13, 2014, 08:47:01 AM
Now, about the wandering labourers. I think the explanation of the queueing is probably the correct one. The interesting thing about this program is the meticulous attention to detail in the sprites.
Last night while playing, it occurred to me that the point at which laborer management stops being a bit bothersome is when I have about 30 laborers. But it's me, not them - by that point, I usually have decent food levels in storage, some crops growing, the essential workplaces are going, and I start to get into a pattern based on the seasons. There's a rhythm to it, and once that starts, things seem to get so much easier for me.
I love it! I love how much everyone cares about speaking and writing clearly in whatever languages one uses. Curmudgeons of the world unite! Throw off your chains! :D
I love every edition of Civ from the original to 5 Each has its own quirks. At first I wasn't sure about 5, but it has certainly grown on me. As it happens, my computer upgrade decisions have often been based on whether the new edition of Civ or Sim City (except the last) can be played on my present machine. If not, well, it's (proper use of apostrophe, eh? ;) ) time to upgrade.
I'm into role playing games too, and the computer I had before was less than pleased when I tried to start up Witcher 2 on it. Quite convinced smoke billowed out from its sides ;D As it turned out, I didn't much fancy Witcher 2 when I was able to run it, the first was much better, but at least I have a new PC now, which can run games very well. Probably a "poor decision", but it has worked out okay after all.
I had to search for "curmudgeon" ;)
Quote from: Pangaea on October 13, 2014, 10:31:45 AM
I had to search for "curmudgeon" ;)
Apparently, according to my wife and co-workers, I became one a couple of years ago. Once you're established as a curmudgeon, though, it really cuts back on the amount of apologizing you have to do. ;)
Quote from: salamander on October 13, 2014, 10:44:23 AM
Quote from: Pangaea on October 13, 2014, 10:31:45 AM
I had to search for "curmudgeon" ;)
Apparently, according to my wife and co-workers, I became one a couple of years ago. Once you're established as a curmudgeon, though, it really cuts back on the amount of apologizing you have to do. ;)
Absolutely! It took me years to develop the necessary characteristics, but it was all worth it in the end.
What is the difference between "crazy" and "eccentric"? Either $1,000,000 or a PhD. I didn't have the million, so I went for the PhD. Now I get to dress however I please, forget whatever I want and act weird whenever it suits my fancy. What a life!
Quote from: rkelly17 on October 13, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
What is the difference between "crazy" and "eccentric"? Either $1,000,000 or a PhD. I didn't have the million, so I went for the PhD. Now I get to dress however I please, forget whatever I want and act weird whenever it suits my fancy. What a life!
I went your way, and now I wear (at least once the weather starts cooling off) hoodie sweat shirts, blue jeans and tennis shoes to class and all the meetings I'm obligated to attend. So far, no one has said anything about my wardrobe choices, but I'm just waiting for the day that happens. ;)
My graduate adviser kept a necktie in his desk drawer, for wearing to meetings. However, he often wore sweaters with no shirt underneath so he just knotted the necktie around his neck and wore it over the sweater. ;D
I thought a curmudgeon had to be a bachelor male? Maybe there is hope for me, if not. ;D
I think most of us here are pretty curmudgeonly ;)
Quote from: slink on October 13, 2014, 11:58:53 AM
I thought a curmudgeon had to be a bachelor male? Maybe there is hope for me, if not. ;D
My wife (after an actual legal ceremony) would say you might be incorrect about the bachelor part. I think a large part of being a curmudgeon is not being willing to put up with BS. :)
Oh, sign me up, then. ;D
Quote from: slink on October 13, 2014, 11:58:53 AM
I thought a curmudgeon had to be a bachelor male? Maybe there is hope for me, if not. ;D
Quote from: slink on October 13, 2014, 12:06:11 PM
Oh, sign me up, then. ;D
Oh, absolutely not. Just ask my wife and daughters! And I have a good friend who proves that one cannot be sexist about who can and can't be a curmudgeon. Curmudgeonness is both a gift and a skill which can be developed. Even those of us who have the gift have to keep practicing or we lose the touch. I'm sure you are up to it,
@slink, so consider yourself duly signed up.
Quote from: salamander on October 13, 2014, 12:03:46 PM
My wife (after an actual legal ceremony) would say you might be incorrect about the bachelor part. I think a large part of being a curmudgeon is not being willing to put up with BS. :)
Though being a curmudgeon does not preclude the production of said commodity on a regular basis as necessary.
;D