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Trap Line

Started by Nominix, February 10, 2017, 05:40:52 PM

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Nominix

During the initial colonization of the americas there were really 2 big starting industries cod fish and beaver pelts. We have a variety of fishing setups however we have no trap lines. Now for those that may not have ever heard of a trap line all you do is setup traps along a route, preferably one in which many fur bearing animals frequent and check them throughout a season.

It would be very cool to setup a trap line to catch say, fox, beaver, muskrat, racoon, mink,lynx, or just any fur bearing critter that suits your fancy. These could make excellent beginning and long term trading ventures. Im actually surprised that something like it is not in CC given that it would fit very well. Not to mention fur coats, coon hats, bear fur trimmed hoods. Literally these were the top fashions of the time and must haves of the rich and well to do.

Be really nice to have a mod that allowed this type of thing.

QueryEverything

I think this was discussed in another Mod dev post a couple of months back, the general consensus was that many of us would play with the trapping options, however there was some concern as to the 'trapping' in itself.  How does it evolve, how do the graphics and the animations work etc.

However, given that there are new mods that generate & produce new items without having to have the animals visible, and as such the 'trapping', I think it's an excellent time to review the options. 

I know there was a concern from some that it may be too ... visual/gorish etc, however, I agree it does suit the timeline and given that it's a mod, if you don't wish to be an animal trapper player, then simply don't install it.

I know @RedKetchup new tower offers new pelts & furs, but I agree, something new like a trapper would be excellent.
@Necora Maritimes mod does have a Pine Trapper, which he is developing into a full production line, and definitely worth downloading and playing with.  Check out the thread over on BL forum, there is a lot of development there.

For those that can't run larger mods, then certainly an indie mod would be excellent.

Personally, I don't see there's any different between trapping and the "go hunting" mod, you don't see slaughter, and we wouldn't have to see animals trapped in the animation and visual aspect of this new mod.
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Necora

I completely agree with you, trapping is a big part of colonial times missing from the game.

When I first started using the forums, I had the same question. Now I have learnt more, I have more of an idea why it has not been done, mainly due to the issues with animating models for the game. Apparently, it is very hard and time consuming, something modders don't always have. So the idea of introducing new animals, at least wild ones that roam the map, is on the back burner to some degree, and I hope that some day someone with a lot more skill than I will do it.

However, I did decide, and it seems @RedKetchup has come to the same conclusion, that furs just need to be in the game. RedKetchup's new training camp has a tower that produces fur at a random rate with some other goodies. I was planning to have the traps spawn in the wild like onions etc. do now, which are harvested by a trapper. I did toy with the idea of dead animals in the traps, but that might be pushing it so the traps will be generic. The problem with this is that it also limits what you can introduce in terms of variety of game and fur produced, because you don't want the map covered in different types, it makes it too easy. So it will be just general fur and game, that could be processed into different types in another building.

Making it too easy is another factor that I am considering when making food production buildings from now on, I want to find a way to make them a little more costly by adding some sort of dependency, like you need to build traps before you can trap the animals. I know @Discrepancy was trying to implement this sort of thing, I'm not sure how it is going though.

I like the idea of fur hats etc. and am thinking about a new clothing line where the basic clothing, leather coats, wool coats etc. are as they are, but then there are more levels which rather than different types of coat, they will be combinations of things like hats, shoes, coats, under garments etc. We'll see how it goes!

Nominix

Thanks, Ill definitely check those out. Much appreciated. By chance would you happen to have a link to that discussion? Id like to give it a good read.

I agree that the gore thing really doesnt hold water. We have butchering....butchering is a LOT more gory than trapping.There are no gory things with the butcher sheds other than the blood spots on the ground and for me its a bit of a stretch to call it gory. Id easily put that into the realism category. My father trapped, all my brothers trapped and I hunted a lot growing up and I can say with a high level of experience that when I butcher a deer its a lot more messy by orders of magnitude than anything to do with trapping. So I dont think there would need to be any gore type graphics at all.

Nominix

#4
Quote from: Necora on February 10, 2017, 06:34:54 PM
I completely agree with you, trapping is a big part of colonial times missing from the game.

When I first started using the forums, I had the same question. Now I have learnt more, I have more of an idea why it has not been done, mainly due to the issues with animating models for the game. Apparently, it is very hard and time consuming, something modders don't always have. So the idea of introducing new animals, at least wild ones that roam the map, is on the back burner to some degree, and I hope that some day someone with a lot more skill than I will do it.

However, I did decide, and it seems @RedKetchup has come to the same conclusion, that furs just need to be in the game. RedKetchup's new training camp has a tower that produces fur at a random rate with some other goodies. I was planning to have the traps spawn in the wild like onions etc. do now, which are harvested by a trapper. I did toy with the idea of dead animals in the traps, but that might be pushing it so the traps will be generic. The problem with this is that it also limits what you can introduce in terms of variety of game and fur produced, because you don't want the map covered in different types, it makes it too easy. So it will be just general fur and game, that could be processed into different types in another building.

Making it too easy is another factor that I am considering when making food production buildings from now on, I want to find a way to make them a little more costly by adding some sort of dependency, like you need to build traps before you can trap the animals. I know @Discrepancy was trying to implement this sort of thing, I'm not sure how it is going though.

I like the idea of fur hats etc. and am thinking about a new clothing line where the basic clothing, leather coats, wool coats etc. are as they are, but then there are more levels which rather than different types of coat, they will be combinations of things like hats, shoes, coats, under garments etc. We'll see how it goes!

Is there any reason it couldnt / wouldnt work as follows?

Use say a tiny building
Place along a creek / lake (assuming your going after a specific fur bearing critter such as beaver) or anywhere if your just using generic furs
They have an AOE like a forester
They only produce from late fall to late winter (which should keep the numbers in check and its realistic as thier fur is not considered ready till after its been cold for a while to allow the second fur layer to develop)
Once you have the furs youd need Tannic Acid and salt. Salt is used in bucket loads to remove the fat from the skin and tannic acid is used to dress the fur or remove the fur entirely giving you a hide.

Tannic Acid can be produced buy putting water in a stump for a few weeks ( my dad used this technique) or in game terms firewood in a barrel of water or something like that, salt mines we have plenty of

So you could make either hides or very soft supple furs.

its seems like the above would give you a good production line? I think?

BTW - do you have a link to your mod? Is it on steam or available for download somewhere?

brads3

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1342.150 try that discussion link. some of what you suggest NORMINIX is in necora's head,lol.  the problems we have found is the animation of the wild animals and also the limits of the hunter circles. you get x amount of squares and are limited to that many products. as the forest ideas have expanded, the idea now is to fake it so to speak. instead of a trapper running around checking multiple traps,it will be understood that he did that and a ruff lodge type building will be designed as a trapper's hut. and then we will get a new chain of furs and clothing etc.

Nominix

Quote from: brads3 on February 10, 2017, 07:08:19 PM
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1342.150 try that discussion link. some of what you suggest NORMINIX is in necora's head,lol.  the problems we have found is the animation of the wild animals and also the limits of the hunter circles. you get x amount of squares and are limited to that many products. as the forest ideas have expanded, the idea now is to fake it so to speak. instead of a trapper running around checking multiple traps,it will be understood that he did that and a ruff lodge type building will be designed as a trapper's hut. and then we will get a new chain of furs and clothing etc.

Thank you for the link.

yes I agree with that. It sounds very good.

Paeng

Quote from: Necora on February 10, 2017, 06:34:54 PManimating models for the game. Apparently, it is very hard and time consuming

That is one of the problems... another one is whether it is really sensible to add more (very small animated) animals.  :-\

I could live well with just the assumption that loads of small creatures (fox, beaver, muskrat, racoon, mink, lynx, rabbits, rats, racoons, snakes etc.) roam the Banished world...  :)

We have the example of the ducks in CC - an animation that in my eyes does not really add much to gameplay visuals (with all due respect, so sorry), except a huge hit on performance (at least for folks with less "beefy" rigs)... I must admit that I cringe when I hear requests to add animated rabbits and similar small (tiny) game to roam complete maps. For me the buck stops at (confined) pasture animals of at least a reasonable size, e.g. goats or such...


* Modders might also want to check back with Denis dela Rive who did complete research, chains and balancing for Fur Trapping, Fur Trade, Trapper's Hut producing fur, Furrier's Hut, as well as other chains...  ;)

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TheOtherMicheal

There's also limited use of fur in Red's Training Camp mod. The hunter's towers produce various meats along with generic leathers & furs and there is a tailor that makes "winter coats" from leather & fur or "fur coats" from just fur.

Nominix

Quote from: Paeng on February 10, 2017, 07:25:43 PM


I could live well with just the assumption that loads of small creatures (fox, beaver, muskrat, racoon, mink, lynx, rabbits, rats, racoons, snakes etc.) roam the Banished world...  :)


I couldnt agree more - if the stopping blocks to it are animal animations, just dont put them in. Im perfectly happy without the animations. They would be an awesome addition but if its more problem than its worth, then by all means dont bother with it.
I think if say you had a small building and when you assigned a worker to it you had a choice of which ever small critter you wanted to trap for would be a good compromise to not having animals roam the map.

QueryEverything

I think it's all possible to an extent, (and I'm not a modder, the Dev & mods will be able to correct my assumptions) after all, fisherman catch the invisible fish, the new marine proteins are also invisible, until there is a basket of them.

Timing however would need to be based on something, maybe the leaves code (BL team have talked about this, and that's how Shockpuppet & @kralyerg have modded some of their mods), but, would it work on a building, or at least connected to a profession?  Like the fields, could the fields code be hijacked for their timing.  When the fields are fallow then the hunters trap XYZ, when they are tended the hunters ABC, it's connected to the seasons, but, I don't know if that's how the leaves codes work ...  All just thinking this outloud, I have no(!!) ideas :D 

I don't need to see rabbits, I just need them to appear in the storage :D 

Rather than visual 'traps', what about little warren & nests on the ground in the radius?  (If a radius us used).  Much like the blossoming gatherables, and in @kralyerg's Krazy collection, all the different foresters, the trappers area, radius etc, will produce little mounds of warrens, nests etc on the ground, and along the river; just like the little basket of berries & grapes etc.
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brads3

PAENG do you have a link to that trapper's page?? might be an interesting read especially for the modders. i agree with the ducks,the no more ducks mod did really good at fixing it.no more ducks overpowering the deer hunters and yet the duck blind still works fine. i do throw the animal decorations out,the bear near the forest mods, a fox or 2 on the creekbanks,etc. they work well to have animals on the map. with the trees you don't see into the forest much anyhow.

brads3

no,there is no calendar controls. necora and i did have that discussion at CC.no way to piggy back it even. as to placing furs or pelts in the forest then we have another problem. we are running out of squares for the items to create on. i think the forest is about maxed on different items now.in order to have so many items we get less of each 1 now.that is 1 reason to the idea of "faking it" so to speak. as RED has shown , a building can create furs and skins without an area circle. i think NECORA is trying to finish and fine tune the mods he has made,and then he may try to develop a chain for trapping and clothing.he probly will need a break 1st with all the work he has done in such a short time.

Nominix

So modders dont have access to anything that can control time? No access to functions or an ability to write your own functions or at least grab some pre-exisiting time based variables?

Necora

Quote from: Paeng on February 10, 2017, 07:25:43 PM
That is one of the problems... another one is whether it is really sensible to add more (very small animated) animals.  :-\

I could live well with just the assumption that loads of small creatures (fox, beaver, muskrat, racoon, mink, lynx, rabbits, rats, racoons, snakes etc.) roam the Banished world...  :)

We have the example of the ducks in CC - an animation that in my eyes does not really add much to gameplay visuals (with all due respect, so sorry), except a huge hit on performance (at least for folks with less "beefy" rigs)... I must admit that I cringe when I hear requests to add animated rabbits and similar small (tiny) game to roam complete maps. For me the buck stops at (confined) pasture animals of at least a reasonable size, e.g. goats or such...


* Modders might also want to check back with Denis dela Rive who did complete research, chains and balancing for Fur Trapping, Fur Trade, Trapper's Hut producing fur, Furrier's Hut, as well as other chains...  ;)

I agree with the animation, and I had Denis' help with the turpentine and pitch additions, I think he has the chains and balancing worked out for all sorts of wonderful things! I will ask him about furs.



Quote from: Nominix on February 10, 2017, 08:21:36 PM
So modders dont have access to anything that can control time? No access to functions or an ability to write your own functions or at least grab some pre-exisiting time based variables?

Not that I know of, no way to make timed items at least. One thing we could do, I guess, is have the resource 'grow' like a tree or a crop but I'm not sure how that will work outside of a crop field or orchard. I know it takes a certain time for things to grow and mature when spawned, but I'm not sure if that is linked to seasons or just time from when it was spawned. I'll have to look into it, but I'm still learning my way though the code.

Quote from: QueryEverything on February 10, 2017, 07:45:54 PM
I think it's all possible to an extent, (and I'm not a modder, the Dev & mods will be able to correct my assumptions) after all, fisherman catch the invisible fish, the new marine proteins are also invisible, until there is a basket of them.

Timing however would need to be based on something, maybe the leaves code (BL team have talked about this, and that's how Shockpuppet & @kralyerg have modded some of their mods), but, would it work on a building, or at least connected to a profession?  Like the fields, could the fields code be hijacked for their timing.  When the fields are fallow then the hunters trap XYZ, when they are tended the hunters ABC, it's connected to the seasons, but, I don't know if that's how the leaves codes work ...  All just thinking this outloud, I have no(!!) ideas :D 

I don't need to see rabbits, I just need them to appear in the storage :D 

Rather than visual 'traps', what about little warren & nests on the ground in the radius?  (If a radius us used).  Much like the blossoming gatherables, and in @kralyerg's Krazy collection, all the different foresters, the trappers area, radius etc, will produce little mounds of warrens, nests etc on the ground, and along the river; just like the little basket of berries & grapes etc.


Well, I believe that fishermen still catch a resource that is 'live' in the water, you just don't see it. That is how it is effected by area and other buildings etc. In fact, I think that is something that the vanilla game did well, there is no building that produces something from nothing, they are all limited in some way. The shore huts etc. however, they produce something from nothing based on the Apiary code. There is no input, no radius, no cost asides from work time. It would be very easy to code this up, but I think I would rather get away from that and find ways of making my food production buildings a bit more costly, even if it is just an input like grain, or traps, or nets etc. Having the fur and meat harvested in a radius from spawned resources will do this, just with the gatherer.

I like the idea of warrens and nests, I never thought about that! You could even spawn a beaver lodge on the shore.