This challenge is a carryover from the Aging Mod Debate thread found here:
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=3063.0
I wanted to really compare the difference in gameplay between using and not using an aging mod - is it harder or easier with an aging mod? So I played 2 maps using in the same map seed and map settings. I used Labor Window and RK minimized Status mods on both. On the 2nd map I use my One Year is One Year Alt Abandoned mod made by Voeille. I used no other mods, no debug, no nomad attractors.
The map seed and settings for both: Map #79569944 Valley, Small, Fair, disasters Off, Easy Start
Both maps started with 6 Homes and 6 Families = a population of 22, 12 adults and 10 children
Both maps started with sheep, wheat seeds, and potato seeds (plus orchard seeds- oops unknown)
Both maps started with the same starting supplies.
I played each map until the end of year 5 at game speed 2x and 5x and here are my findings:
Map 1 vanilla aging - total population end of year 1-5 = 26, 29, 30, 39, 46 16 Families in 14 Homes
Map 1 vanilla aging- educated adult workers year 1-5 = 12, 14, 18, 26, 28 (They grow up so fast)
Map 2 aging mod - total population end of year 1-5 = 26, 29, 29, 30, 30 Still 6 Families in 6 Homes
Map 2 aging mod - educated adult workers year 1-5 = 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 ( 1 or 2 years yet for 1 more)
Conclusion - vanilla aging much easier - plenty of workers, town grew and was more productive, at the end of year 5, I had 7 laborers and 1 builder. Map moved along at steady pace - game can always be paused or game speed reduced. The map with the aging mod was more difficult because of the lack of worker, micro-managing between jobs was necessary, there were often shortages, at the end of year 5, I had 1 laborer and no builder. Playing with a nomad attractor would provide workers but they would be uneducated and production would be reduce.
The Challenge - show why and how you think an aging mod is easier. Do that in one of 2 ways = either by 1) playing a map using my exact setting with an aging mod of your choice for the same amount of years, or 2) play two maps as I did, one with and one without aging mod using map seed and settings of your choice for as long as you want. Either way use no other mods accept UI changes and one aging mod. No Debug and No Nomads. Are you up to the Challenge?
It will be interesting to hear your results and/or opinions.
Doesn't seem like an aging mod should affect difficulty, just affects the time it takes to progress. Basically everything just takes longer to happen. Instead of spending however many years micro managing every single task, you spend multiple times that. Again, that's not difficulty, it's just more of the same repetitive stuff. Since I've done a few extreme starts like adam & eve and other misc ones, it's just something I prefer not to do anymore. I didn't have any problem progressing, it just takes so much longer to get going even at 10x speed. I can't imagine doing the same thing for even longer before boredom sets in.
I think bannies age 5 years per in game year, so you set aging 1:1 and now you increase the time it takes to progress by 5x. That's a lot of extra time, even at 10x speed.
@theonlywanderer Thanks for reply. Vanilla difficulty levels easy, medium, and hard, are based on number of people, buildings, and resources. With aging mods growth of population and town and production is slower. With less people it is reasonable to say it is more difficult to progress, or as you say - it is more time consuming to progress. It is not easier by any means - but it is different.
If you use Steam, there is a mod there named slowage which ages your bannies 2.5 years instead of 5 every game year. It might also be worth testing for your comparisons. Also, it can be enabled or disabled during gameplay at any time with no bad effects.
@grammycat That is interesting, thanks, I did not know that. I do not use steam but maybe you or someone else who uses it would like to try my challenge to show comparison.
It's only more difficult if you are trying to get the same achievements that were based on 5x aging, which is kind of unfair to do when comparing the difference. You would need to make that allowance in the achievements as well. IE...1:1 aging... change the 300 pop after 100 years, to 60 pop after 100 years. This would put that achievement back on equal ground for comparison. If you don't allow for this, of course, anything you do to the game with a mod can alter the odds one way or the other to be easier or more difficult. Anything you do challenge wise has to accommodate that 5x difference to be equal comparison.
If we take achievements out of it, progressing slower cannot be considered more difficult. Lets say with 5x aging, it takes 5 years of micro managing jobs until you get a somewhat stable population. Well, with 1:1 aging, it now takes 25 years of micro managing those very same jobs. Everything just slows down, it doesn't get any more difficult. If you were switching somebody between tools and clothes for 5 years, it's the same exact process, only now it's for 25 years. How is that any more difficult? Yes, far more time consuming, but not really more difficult.
Kind of like a production line worker doing a particular job, the boss says they need to work another hour. Their job didn't change, it's not any more difficult, they just have to do it for another hour that day.
I think, real time aging can make it harder as well as easier depending on circumstances. Harder to get more people in early game but easier to manage things later. With vanilla speed aging it can become a problem under tough conditions in a more complex mod. You have to build new houses and to get enough resources 5 times faster. If you cannot keep up with their fast aging, your population "burns out" if that works in English. And of course, real time aging was not meant to make it harder or easier, just more realistic. If I remember back, 1:1 Aging by Gordon Dry was the first mod I added together with that cold realism tweak. :)
:)
@Tom Sawyer , I think it may have been your North mod that got me liking the aging mods to begin with. :) With or without the game offers challenges to play. I find with vanilla aging I pause the game more often and for longer periods of time and play at lower game speed. I find with aging mod I do not have to have those little icons all over the map when work stops due to limits or lack of materials and I can keep an eye on everything just fine.
@theonlywanderer It is not only the speed that changes the game. I find that with vanilla aging I rarely if ever had to micro-manage between jobs, also I rarely if ever had to accepted nomads which are uneducated and produce less so simply multiply production x5 is not quite accurate. I like the speed of 1:1 aging mod for storytelling but I also like vanilla speed for other maps.
Thank you both for repyling :)
@Abandoned - My oh my do I love following your stories. I have been trying to build up a med map around the idea of The Hudson Bay Company Trading Posts using the plantation stockade and all log type buildings. I am just not good enough yet, (after close to 4 years, :D .) Maybe when you have nothing else to do, as if :-\, you might consider a story around that idea. One thing I find missing though is more log style buildings. Kind of limited. Oh well.
Thanks For The Great Stories
Looking Forward To More.
:)
@Kristahfer Thank you so much, your comments could not have come at a better time. I was actually considering not continuing storytelling. I have begun a new story that will be a series of maps heading south, after that I will be heading north and most certainly will do a Hudson Bay Trading Company story. :) It is now on my list. Thank you for the suggestion. :)
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 13, 2019, 02:44:07 AMHarder to get more people in early game but easier to manage things later.
If they set a goal of wanting more people early in the game, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of using the 1:1 mod to slow things down, so why would they even use the mod? You can't use that to justify saying the 1:1 mod makes the game harder. It will indeed take longer to build up a population, but it's not any harder, just more time consuming.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 13, 2019, 02:44:07 AMreal time aging was not meant to make it harder or easier, just more realistic.
Exactly. It only becomes "harder" when people set goals not in line with 1:1 aging. Any challenge set for 1:1 aging can be duplicated with 5x aging with the proper allowance for the speed difference. Otherwise it's not a proper comparison of difficulty.
Quote from: Abandoned on July 13, 2019, 06:16:40 AMIt is not only the speed that changes the game. I find that with vanilla aging I rarely if ever had to micro-manage between jobs, also I rarely if ever had to accepted nomads which are uneducated and produce less so simply multiply production x5 is not quite accurate. I like the speed of 1:1 aging mod for storytelling but I also like vanilla speed for other maps.
If you start with 5 families in vanilla aging, you won't have to micro manage very long, but you will for a bit until the population grows. You have no alternative other then to switch people around in order to get things done. With the 1:1 mod, you will do exactly the same thing only for much longer since your population grows 5x slower. How is doing the exact same thing considered more difficult?
The balance for food, clothing, tools, and fuel per person remains the same for either speed. They use the tools the same, they use clothes the same, need the same amount of food per year. But, it could be argued that 1:1 is actually easier since vanilla production was based on 5x aging. The blacksmith still produces at the same ratio for vanilla. Therefore, your tool availability will be much greater for a 1:1 growing population. Same with the tailor and clothes. It's far easier for production to keep up with a 1:1 population since it was designed around 5:1.
Good points
@theonlywanderer thanks :) I don't have a problem with either, but vanilla game difficulty levels - easy, medium, and hard are based on more people and resources is easier than less people and resources. Vanilla aging produces more people sooner. :)
Easy, medium and hard levels are nothing more then starting conditions of people and supplies. They do not affect anything else like speed, production, resources found on the map, nothing else. I don't know why you keep bringing that up.
If producing more people sooner is their goal, why would they use the 1:1 mod?
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Easy, medium, hard is proportionally the same in vanilla as with the 1:1 aging mod.
I will not repeat what has already been said, but the starting conditions are called easy start, medium start, and hard start, because more starting people, building, and resources make it an easier start, and less starting people, buildings, and resources make it harder. That is pretty easy to understand.
Perhaps
@theonlywanderer you will tell us which start condition you prefer to use, easy, medium, or hard, and why. Also you could tell if you are using an aging mod, which one, and why.
@Abandoned Yes.. easy/medium/hard determine starting conditions and that's it. All three have the same conditions whether you use the aging mod or not. Starting conditions do not alter game play any further then the start. I don't see how it's relevant to a conversation about aging mods.
Having already done many successful hard and other extreme starts, I don't bother anymore. They became extremely boring and time consuming to me. So I use easy starts so that I can get on with building things out and skip the hours of mind numbing micro managing only to end up where the easier start would put me anyway. Since I like to build faster, I have no use for aging mods. For me, it would slow progress down and add insanely annoying on top of boring and time consuming.
wow, so you do not speak from experience using aging mods. Easy start and debug, extremely easy, (I imagine since I have never used debug) well then yes, you would find an aging mod very hard even with an easy start. Of course with or without an aging mod, you can speed the game up using 5x or even 10x speed. Perhaps, you are the one to take on this challenge. Use all my exact same map setting, same map seed and easy start, the only mod allowed is an aging mod of your choice Of course NO Debug. Play one map vanilla only and another with aging mod, and tell us which is harder and which you like best. :)
You clearly cannot comprehend and I'm tired of dealing with your idiocy. You clearly have a problem with me and just looking for a reason to dismiss me. That's fine!
I DON'T USE DEBUG WHILE PLAYING A NORMAL GAME! How you manged to assume I always use debug just proves you have some weird agenda instead of actually reading what I wrote.
I also clearly stated I have successfully done many hard and extreme starts. It's not a challenge for me anymore, it's actually really easy which is why I decided it was pointless, boring and too time consuming starting at that level anymore. Been there, done that.
I use debug when I want to play around with stuff strictly for the city building aspect.
Quote from: Abandoned on July 14, 2019, 02:50:08 PMOf course with or without an aging mod, you can speed the game up using 5x or even 10x speed.
LMFAO!! Ummm... that doesn't alter the game settings for aging. And yes I do play on 10x speed. I don't want to take 5 months to play one round of this game.
Quote from: Abandoned on July 14, 2019, 02:50:08 PM
you would find an aging mod very hard even with an easy start.
@Abandoned No, I wouldn't. I would find it very boring waiting for everything to balance out to keep building. More of the same, just takes a lot longer. That's NOT HARDER, just more time consuming.
Sadly, you won't fully comprehend any this YET AGAIN!.....
So, I comprehend you are not accepting the "Challenge" that this thread is all about. Thank you for you opinions.
There is no challenge to accept. What is the challenge?
You trying to have the same population during the same amount of years with an aging mod that you would with Vanilla? Of course it's going to take longer with an aging mod.
What is the challenge supposed to demonstrate?
Seems to me, you only demonstrated what an aging mod does, no real challenge was achieved.
I've done an aging mod myself and must say there are differences in the long run.
In the
very long run, it does not matter. Things stabilize after a number of years.
Be it many or very many.
After 5 years a vanilla bannie is certainly a parent. With an aging mod, he is still a child.
Measure in years is pointless. Measure in lifespans. Generations!
What is accomplished during their lifetime?
Do many tests with/without aging mods. Don't bother about years.
Do villages die out in either way? Then that alternative is certainly more of a challenge.
That is what this thread is about. --- Edit - as I understand it.
@theonlywanderer - There is a truth hidden in a post from
@Abandoned Quote from: Abandoned on July 13, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
Good points @theonlywanderer thanks :) I don't have a problem with either, but vanilla game difficulty levels - easy, medium, and hard are based on more people and resources is easier than less people and resources. Vanilla aging produces more people sooner. :)
You can always counter with - more people need more food, it is still hard and resources end faster in vanilla.
True, the challenges are there all the time but which village survives?
Sorry, Wanderer. Nothing personal :)
It all boils down to the way you like to play -
- being busy and micromanage a lot
or go with the flow and try to survive.
Either can be done in vanilla or in real time.
We're all different. No harm in trying to find if vanilla is easier or harder!
@Abandoned Ok, so I used the same map and same aging mod.
Year 5
15 Homes
6 Families
35 Citizens
12 Adults
6 Students
17 Children
100% educated
So what? It wasn't any more difficult, just more time consuming since you have to build and wait, build and wait. You just control your kids via housing. Again.. so what? You can't build or expand as fast. If building slow is your preference, fine, but it's not harder, just more time consuming.
Having to wait does not add difficulty, it adds time. I fail to see anything that's harder unless you want to create achievements that are unrealistic for the settings that were changed. You can do that for Vanilla or with aging mods. We can create all kinds of challenges that make Vanilla seem insanely hard. But within the focus of the game, the aging mod does nothing more then force you to slow everything down.
@kid1293 Well, my whole point is that vanilla cannot be compared with an aging mod without adapting. If somebody tries to play the same way in both versions, then yes, aging mod becomes a lot harder, but that's fabricating difficulty. Since the settings have been changed, game play has to change. If game play is adapted to the new settings, it's not any more difficult, but just takes longer for everything to happen and your focus changes. Where you would normally build 4 houses, you now only build 2 and then wait.... build and wait... build and wait. It's just agonizingly slow to me, which some people enjoy and that's fine for them, to each their own. But that still doesn't make it more difficult.
:) Thank you
@theonlywanderer for trying aging mod and for your opinion that it is not more difficult.
I thought the productions totals after 5 years for both maps, played basically the same, were interesting. Map 1 without aging mod population was 46 (28 adults), map 2 with aging mod the population was 30 (12 adults). The totals were shown on the 2 overview pictures at the beginning of the thread.
Map 1 - 45 logs, 36 stone, 22 iron, 256 firewood, 124 tools, 94 clothes, 4,252 food, 117 herbs, 36 textiles.
Map 2 - 98 logs, 102 stone, 26 iron, 216 firewood, 68 tools, 90 clothes, 5,101 food, 105 herbs, 70 textiles.
With less than half the workers and a lot of micro-managing map 2 produced almost as well or in some cases better in the same amount of time. Factoring in the population difference, it would appear the production rate was about the same.
First of all, you don't tell me where I can and cannot post. Second of all, you are just as condescending, dismissive and rude, but you try and disguise it better.
For the last time.... changing aging does not affect production or anything else. Why would it? You keep saying that all kinds of stuff changes by altering the ages and it doesn't. They produce the same amount of tools, same amount of clothes, same amount of everything. They need the same amount of food, carry the same amount of stuff, work the same length of time. If the modder has altered any other values other then aging, well, it's no longer just an aging mod is it?
If you don't like me challenging your challenges, well... that's odd, cause isn't that the point? You asked and I am answering and you are in denial of the obvious.
I've always felt that (RT, 1:1, or slower) aging mods do make the game easier, and I sometimes agree that they are boringly slower.
Food production I think is too easy with most of the RT, 1:1 ageing mods later in game unless you basically grow too fast and don't put as many food workers on as you should. Same with firewood production.
I think Luke used the wrong description name for the starting conditions. I don't think having more people make things easier, just puts you forward a few steps, having a jump start, this doesn't make a difference to the rest of the gameplay.
But when we compare if it is truly easier?...
I'm kind of at a loss with trying to compare the two. As depending on the extent of the changes within each ageing mod it can make some things more difficult for some players(*note does not mean it is hard) while others not so. It has anything to do with the time being changed in aging mods.
It is only about the changes that happen to the other variables that will make things easier or harder. That is those that alter food intake, production values, quantities, work time, etc. Aging will only alter the speed at which it happens (you'll still see the movie play at 1x or 5x speed, doesn't actually make it easier or harder - lol or does it? depends on the movie).
I've not played a mod that has achieved this successfully apart from the North.
But, I personally think the North was harder when we were playing at full speed....
Good Morning.
@theonlywanderer - I agree that mathematically the aging does not influence anything in terms of harder/easier.
I lay a long time with thoughts about it tonight. As you say, if it suits your gameplay it feels easy.
Thank you
@Discrepancy I came to the same conclusion that the other values are determining if people
survive or not. Too late childbirth or a too long time in school maybe does not give enough food for the next
generation.
@Abandoned - A big thank you for raising the question. I am convinced that I play better with an aging mod.
It is easier to have a stable population who does not only 'blink by' in time.
I find it a bit fussy to see "harder" only as something more intellectually demanding. It's a common thing in games that it just needs more time, not more brain.
For me, vanilla Banished was almost unplayable at that time with speed aging, but not because it was fast or easy or hard, it was just weird. I liked such a simulation of settling down and doing some farming etc in a simple but realistic environment but wtf.. crops grow in real seasons and even sheep age in real time, only the people get ready after 2 years and then waste away as they are cloned or not from this world.^^ Just the opposite of what the game is about.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 15, 2019, 01:27:19 AM
I find it a bit fussy to see "harder" only as something more intellectually demanding. It's a common thing in games that it just needs more time, not more brain.
I'm not even going to bring other games in to this, it's irrelevant. Each game is it's own thing.
How do you justify calling something harder in banished just because it has to be done for a longer time? It's not literally physical work, it's clicking a mouse and waiting.
The vanilla game is initially a difficult game until you figure it out and it becomes easy. Aging mods don't make it any harder initially, just different and slower and will be just as easy once figured out.
Yes, but that time until you 'figured' it out is what thrills us.
That is why we mod it and that is why every honest try to assemble some facts is worth a lot.
I have no more to say - It feels easier or harder. Math has no relevance as you said.
I'm beginning to regret I ever said that playing with real-time aging was harder for me as a new player. It's seemed to have turned into a thing here. I just assumed you would have got what I meant.
Sorry guys.
I played another round with this alt aging mod to see how long it initially takes to get even one student to become an adult/laborer. Yeah, no thanks! I'd rather stick my head in a blender then play with an aging mod.
ALT AGING
Early Winter 1 - Denisha becomes student
Autumn 7 - Denisha becomes adult/laborer
VANILLA
Late Spring 1 - Racuiina becomes student
Early Autumn 2 - Racuiina becomes adult/laborer
Quote from: kid1293 on July 15, 2019, 06:28:16 AM
Yes, but that time until you 'figured' it out is what thrills us.
Yes, I absolutely agree 100%. But figuring out Vanilla vs figuring out an aging mod? Same level of difficulty, just WAY slower for the aging mod. Agonizing slower.... to each their own with aging mods! Not for me.
Quote from: theonlywanderer on July 15, 2019, 06:23:23 AM
How do you justify calling something harder in banished just because it has to be done for a longer time? It's not literally physical work, it's clicking a mouse and waiting.
We start to talk in loops. I fully got what you mean and just said it's valid to say "harder" to get something in a game if it takes longer. I think English is not that precise with this word but I can be wrong. Also, clicking and waiting can be very hard. So hard that people need to speed it up 5 times. ;D
@Tom Sawyer Yes, there is obviously some subjectivity in this, but it's a fine line.
Let's look at the common scenario where you have to switch a laborer between the blacksmith and tailor.
Say in Vanilla you have to do that for 2 years. In the aging mod, you'll do that for maybe 7 or 8 years.
Can you really say it's harder to do the exact same thing just because it's being done for a longer time period? I would say more tedious... more monotonous... but I just can't elevate it to being any harder.
Yes, I think it can be called a harder setting if it needs more activity and time but not more intellect to get the same thing. You narrow it down to the last aspect but that's not even a typical case. You can usually achieve almost everything in a game over levels of difficulty just by more activity and it's probably even a design idea. Maybe you argue so insistently because you feel a bit offended playing a setup that could be considered as "easy" or not so clever but actually nobody said so.
Quote from: MarkAnthony on July 15, 2019, 06:40:59 AM
I'm beginning to regret I ever said that playing with real-time aging was harder for me as a new player. It's seemed to have turned into a thing here. I just assumed you would have got what I meant.
Sorry guys.
@MarkAnthony No regrets and no need to apologize. :) I got exactly what you meant and agreed. Micromanaging and balancing takes a little practice. It is the reason I would not recommend an aging mod to a new player. You are doing fine, and keep asking questions and making comments on the forum. :) Also thanks for incentive needed to post my mod list system. I hope it will be of some help to some players.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 15, 2019, 11:15:38 AMMaybe you argue so insistently because you feel a bit offended playing a setup that could be considered as "easy" or not so clever but actually nobody said so.
"Argue so insistently" is bit harsh of a description. Are we supposed to make one comment and then walk away and not back up what we say? I thought these forums were about discussions, not one hit remarks and run.
"You feel a bit offended"... again, a bit harsh and not even close. More like a bit frustrated when something obvious goes right over somebodies head.
Some keep saying "it's more difficult to progress with aging mods", but that's simply not true. Progress is progress even if it's slower progress, which is the exact intent of aging mods. If you try and compare how progress is made with vanilla aging versus how progress is made with an aging mod, well, that's just ridiculous and an invalid comparison. Aging mods have their progress level and vanilla aging has it's progress level. As long as you are not dying off in either scenario, that's what matters and it takes all the same functions in both scenario's to make that happen and balance everything out. Where is the increased difficulty when doing all the same functions in both scenarios?
Somebody plays an aging mod and then says "Wow, it's difficult to grow a population".... well... DUH!!! Aging mods aren't designed to grow a population, they are designed to slow down growth. If you play the aging mod for what it is, it's not more difficult at all.
Come on, I even checked a dictionary for the sweetest variant of wording. I'm from the dark germanic woods and have a hard time speaking noble English but I do my best. I think to come up again and again with something where not even a disagreement exists is to argue insistently for any reason. To quote and weight words is also only to keep arguing and to be offended. It's a method to escalate a talk. Instead we should sit in the hall and drink some horns of ale or so. ;D
QuoteInstead we should sit in the hall and drink some horns of ale or so. ;D
I agree. How about you guys/gals all lay down the hatchets and call a truce?
In conclusion aging mods are not for everyone. Some think they make the game harder, some easier, some think the only difference is the time change. It is a matter of opinion and choice to use or not to use. Thank you all for comments.
i never played with a such mod... so dunno how it feels
Thanks for commenting Mr
@RedKetchup :) I hope you have been feeling better.