World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on January 10, 2017, 05:10:52 AM

Title: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 10, 2017, 05:10:52 AM
Our friend @Tom Sawyer has again figured out some new difficulties. Of cause, I had to test it! But why call it ironman? Why not ironwoman?  >:( ;D

I have a "new" computer and I have installed Banished new. I forgot, that you have to set the options of making screenshots with the F buttons. So I have no screenshots from the game I played yesterday. Unfortunately I also made no saves. I guess I played it too fast. It's my problem playing in "real time": Too little happens, if I don't speed the game up. Normally I find a "real time" game boring at the beginning. This game is not boring. You have to micromanage a lot to survive, so there are things to do all the time.

What can I say about "ironman"? The start isn't much different from the old "impossible" now "survivor": They have nothing, so freezing is more critical than starving. A house is needed fast, after that a barn and some food with the "instant hunting and gathering", then go for tool production, after that clothes. All children from the start were quite small, so the school could wait. In this settlement everyone will be educated.

The problem now at the beginning is, that few adults have to support a lot of children and students. The houses are all full. If you look at the graphs, I've cut into the last picture, you may see the the problems. It's quite obvious, that the most important thing in this game is a slow growth. It's not possible to support much more children than adults in a harsh climate. If you have such a food graph, some things must change, if you want to survive. I'm quite confident, that this settlement will survive for now, despite this graph. Why? The first student has just graduated and soon the second one will and next year another one. It will make a big difference. (8 productive - 12 unproductive to 11 productive - 9 unproductive) The young people will have to live at their parents for some more years. Their mothers are still young enough to get more children and I can certainly not need another 3 new babies until the stores have recovered.

If you look at the citizens graph, you can see, that I never could produce enough clothes. I hunt every reindeer close to the settlement, still it wasn't enough. This will improve now as well; I was lucky to get some sheep.

I micromanage a lot. Now it's spring. More or less everyone have to go out in the forest to pick wild food. Everything else is made in winter.

Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Abandoned on January 10, 2017, 05:35:40 AM
 :)  Wise Nordic Ironwoman is off to a good start.  Good luck with new town.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 10, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
Quote from: Nilla
But why call it ironman? Why not ironwoman?  >:( ;D

Ok, then at least a woman is the first one who survived on Ironman. ;D

... as far as we know. Would be interesting to see more trials and strategies in this mode. Anyway, my respect to each player who managed these conditions!

Yes, the start is similar to "Survivor" and you already know what to do. But I think here you are not "out of the woods" after a survived start. The +20% required food can hit your settlement in bad years and a one-way protein strategy will probably run into sickness. I'm also interested in your clothing economy and if 2 years per coat is a good (hard) balance. I'm curious about the next years. :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 11, 2017, 04:49:31 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 10, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
But I think here you are not "out of the woods" after a survived start.

;D I'm sure you're right! As I said right at the beginning; the biggest challenge for me will be to let the settlement grow slow. The big problem is not, that they need more and better balanced food or more coats; it's not worse, than to play with uneducated. The big problem is the combination with the real time gameplay. I know how much harder it is to control the population growth. I don't think, I dare to build many of the red houses with 4 children. It will probably let the game run out of control.

The main strategy is: not more children and student than adults. As long as I can keep this, I think it will work. The best way, I don't know yet. Much farming? Much trade? We will see.

First picture

As I thought, the food situation got under control, when I got 2 more laborers and the number of adults became the same as the number of children/student. If you look at the profession menu, you can see that there are many laborers. They all collect wild food in the forest. Only if a flock of reindeer shows up close to the settlement, I let 1 or 2 of them hunt. I could buy some seed potatoes. I'm not sure, how much I will farm later in this game.

I could also buy some rye, that I kept in the trading port, until the mill was built and all wild food for that year was collected. Grain is valuable, so I like to increase the amount.

Second picture

Here some of the winter occupations are shown. Thar's enough tools, so there will be no blacksmith this year, but as soon as the trading port is filled or enough clothes or firewood for this year is produced, I will start to make iron bloom for next year and also let the herbalist cure some people........ There's never time to produce much in advance.

Third picture

The first young couple could finally move out. You can also see that the sheep solved the clothing problem. The higher damand for clothes will bring problems, but only if you have no sheep. I don't think you can hunt so much, that you can make reindeer coats for everyone for a long time. I was lucky to be able to buy some early.

No one was sick so far. They had a bad diet at the beginning. You can see, that the health was below 50%. Now they have a good diet and also enough herbs. It's interesting, to connect the probability to get a decease to the general health. We will see, if I make any observations of how it works.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 13, 2017, 01:39:26 AM
I said, I would try to develop this settlement slow. And sure, the game helps me! Helps me a lot!  >:( There are 6 young adults living at their parents (young and young, some are in their 30s) all male! I can't really estimate the consequences for the game. I only know one thing; building no houses for a long time is not good. I'm in year 36. I think I built the last one around year 20. Most students are female, but it will take another year or so until the first graduate.

In all other aspects, the game runs good. I have bought some barely seeds. It looks like you've changed them a bit @Tom Sawyer. Now apples, potatoes and barely grows on harsh and give about the same average harvest (between 15% and 70% depending on the temperature). I find it good that way; it make some sense to farm, but it's not very profitable. If you have enough storage, the cold summers are no problem. This will be a very good year! 16 C in June is very rare. It's more often less than 10!

I still run the game a lot on 10x and 5X speed, only slowing it down (sometimes even stop it) if a merchant arrives in the time, as the season changes and I change the occupation of the people or when the harvest soon is to be started. Of cause, if you play on harsh, you have to start it manually around 1 August. Sometimes, if it's very cold or very warm I start harvesting in late July. It has happened, that I forgot to start it in time and that's not good at all.


Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 13, 2017, 04:54:50 AM
Your stock of food looks good @Nilla. I thought there will be more problems to manage the ironman mode. Probably it is your experience and great (micro)management. But if you continue to play so defensively, you may come into a crisis by aging of the population, as you describe. Will you take some nomads? Would be an interesting decision. Stagnation because of aging or risky growth by uneducated nomads. :)

Barley is not changed but potato and apple got a small nerf. It was too boring just to grow potatoes and apples. Current values as always in the Wiki.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 14, 2017, 02:51:17 AM
I have bin thinking about nomads but I have decided not to take any. If it wasn't the first time, I played this option, I maybe would have taken some to speed things up. But since I don't really know yet, how these changes work, when everyone is educated, I will endure this slow game a few more years. Otherwise you'll not know, if it's the nomads or the mod, that cause potential problems.

I'm not playing defensive, the game forces this. I was defensive right at the beginning, but I think, that every girl, that was born in Firestelluride, got a house within a year, after she was graduated from school. Even some schoolgirls occasionally moves out. One just moved to a single young male, who inherited a house from one of the initial settlers and lived there alone for some time. There's still more males than females.

Anyhow the number of children grows again and I hope it will now be better. I've built 3 trading ports. I don't really need 3 of them. It's more because I have a lot of sellable goods and not much for my farmers to do in the long winter, than to build a trading port and carry stuff into it.

Again I've cut in some graphs into the first picture.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 14, 2017, 05:54:00 AM
That's true. It forces slow growth. And slow playing for micromanagement, at least sometimes as you said. Can you evaluate if they really consume 120 food? The ironman start condition uses another citizen.rsc and I'm not 100% sure if they reproduce them self.

Another issue is, if nomads will consume 120 food. I found a reference to vanilla citizen.rsc in the nomad.rsc. I don't know how it is connected. But if nomads will be citizens and not "ironmen" it would not make sense to realize it in this way via start condition. So it is good you still have a full-blooded population. I will make a test with nomads too.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 15, 2017, 03:52:21 AM
About food: It's hard to say, how much they really need. They do need more than usual and if I make a quick estimation, 120 could be right. Look at the picture.

Last year about 49 inhabitants consumed 8079 food. The mill used about 1400 -> 6700 left and that's more than 120 each. The problem is, what you put in the trading ports counts as well. I sell food, mainly venison and I try to transport as much as possible into the ports. If we guess that 90% of the 1000 venison, that I produced last year disappears into the ports, the rest 5900 food is consumed from 49 inhabitants -> 120 each.

Maybe it's not so bad, if nomads would need the "normal" amount of food, it will take away a part of the uneducated penalty. Taking nomads, while playing "real time" is always problematic, since they live so long and influence the productivity for a very long time and a game without early nomads is very slow.

I don't know yet, how hard  "ironman" really is. The circumstances have made this game unusually slow and as you can see; it's quite easy to increase the stores. I don't know what will happen, when the population grows in a more "normal" way. I will try to expand as fast as possible the next years by building  houses for every new couple, as long as I dare.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 16, 2017, 03:54:56 AM
I played again yesterday. The years went by. I'm in year 65. The population now grows quite fast. I can still increase the stores. In fact, I start to get problems not having enough barns for everything.  :-\ But I guess that things will now start to change as the number of "unproductive" are closing in on the "productive". You can see in the cut in graphs, that I now produce less than I consume. The production numbers are from early 65 not 64 as the other pictures and year 64 brought a good harvest. I have always bought wheat and rye to process in the mill and I've also started to buy vegetables. Now I only grow (the more expensive) barley and no potatoes. Maybe I will grow some later when the population gets bigger, I don't know yet.

I have a small request for you @Tom Sawyer; a few more lines on the menu of the mill. It can produce more than 2 different things and as you can see on my first picture, sometimes some other things are shown as well. It's always good to see everything that's produced.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 16, 2017, 02:04:46 PM
Haha. Your food graph is not stoppable. And health is 5/5. You definitely have beaten the ironman mode! ;D

A solution for the storage problems could be to build a stock of money instead of more barns. A big stock of food feels better but I find it an interesting option in our gameplay. And the mill will get the long production list.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 18, 2017, 05:01:54 AM
To store coins...... hm...... I think I'm too stingy for that.  :-[ I want to get as much as possible out of my merchandise and use the few coins the merchants bring! Now! Not later! But honestly, I guess, it would be a good way to store things. I'm sure I wouldn't go broke, if I barter traded more.

If the first obstacle for this is to beat my hoarding disire, the second (real) obstacle would be the limited space in the trading ports. You will need more goods in the port, if you barter trade, as well as trade for coins to store. If I try this, I think the new bigger port from @kid1293 would be very valuable. I find the limited space in the ports is more annoying, when you're playing the North, than in a vanilla gameplay. Here I like to sell more heavy stuff like logs, wool, hides, charcoal, tools and clothing. One alternative thing to a bigger port, could be to change the weight of things. I can understand that logs are heavy and spacial, but tools and clothing? Don't need much space to store a coat or a hammer!

I'll post some pictures.

First picture

The food store doesn't grow that much anymore. There's one unusual thing in this game, compared to all other Nordic games I've played. I have too much logs! It never happened before. I sell some but as I said; the space in the port is limited. I produce some firewood but the gatherers are also very diligent collecting a lot in the woods. I produce some charcoal to sell, but the tool production is still low. Iron is the limit. I don't have many people to spare for mining. Sometimes I send the farmers to mine in the winter but there are also other winter works, that have to be done. So I don't use much logs. I've also cleared some land lately, mainly to make space for more sheep but also some fields and orchards.

Second picture

Again I've cut in some graphs. You can see that half my food store is fish and mutton. But everyone lives in the circle of a "lanthandel" and there are plenty of all kind of food (and herbs) so yes, they are healthy. The doctor haven't had to work once!
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 19, 2017, 05:07:43 AM
Quote from: Nilla
To store coins...... hm...... I think I'm too stingy for that.  :-[ I want to get as much as possible out of my merchandise and use the few coins the merchants bring! Now! Not later! But honestly, I guess, it would be a good way to store things. I'm sure I wouldn't go broke, if I barter traded more.

Hm, barter trading is not really my intention if I suggest to stock money for efficient storage. It seems the cash flow is the problem. We made a balance of import/export. You give the money away in the same amount as you can get it from export merchants. Even with your 3 ports it seems to be not enough. Actually not bad but not a good way to save a lot of money. More coins from export merchants would help.

Quote from: Nilla
I think the new bigger port from @kid1293 would be very valuable. I find the limited space in the ports is more annoying, when you're playing the North, than in a vanilla gameplay. Here I like to sell more heavy stuff like logs, wool, hides, charcoal, tools and clothing. One alternative thing to a bigger port, could be to change the weight of things. I can understand that logs are heavy and spacial, but tools and clothing? Don't need much space to store a coat or a hammer!

The required space of tools, clothing, textiles, iron and other materials is already reduced in the North. From 10 to 5 in most cases. The basic rule is: food 1, materials 5, stone/bricks 10 and logs 15. Coins also 1 of course. A big port with high capacity is convenient for trading. Maybe more than many small docks and we can adapt Kids port to make it work in the North. And I think it should be logical in comparison to other storage buildings. Maybe not only paid by land use but also with building costs for big storage. Like an industrial port as advanced building for midgame with typical brick architecture like in some ports of Hanseatic cities.

Quote from: Nilla
There's one unusual thing in this game, compared to all other Nordic games I've played. I have too much logs! It never happened before.

I guess your surplus of logs is a result of slow growth. In the North logs are building material and not so relevant for firewood. So slower growth means less required wood.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 20, 2017, 05:52:36 AM
Yes, if you want to store coins, the merchants have to bring more of it. But I like it the way it is. As it is now, you really have to make a choice. If you want to buy something and you have no/not enough coins, you have to make the choice; a safe, less profitable barter trade or gamble and wait. It makes the gameplay more interesting.

I tested a little bit to barter trade and save the coins, but at least now in this game, I really don't like it. It takes away one of the advantages with the coins; the fact that you need less traders in the port. As I used goods to buy both food and coins, the single trader wasn't able to fill the port fast enough and I have no laborers to spare, to increase the number.

I would also like some Nordic ports.

We have discussed the warehouse before. It does work better now, than it did, but still it's not perfect. I'm not so fond of the combination textile/metal. Look at the picture. I have a lot of wool in my stores, but the lazy vendor prefers to fill it with closer charcoal and steel, than to walk a bit further and get wool. I have also noticed, that iron ore isn't stored in the warehouse. As it is now, it's no problem; the mine is close. But what is when it has run empty? OK; a smelter is cheap to move close to the new mine and the vendor could pick up the bloom and carry it close to the blacksmiths. I have built a second mine and smelter to test this. But as far as I can see; it's the same as wool; it's too far away for the lazy vendor. He prefers to pick up 3 steel from the close barn, than to go to the other side of the village, to get 100 bloom. Is it possible to set a limit for each product?

I have another request about the mill. Could the footprint be changed, to get a possible to build a road to the bridge? People use that bridge, so it would be nice to build a road to connect it.

The game goes on the same way. Now the population grows, so it makes a little bit more fun, but honestly; real time is not my game. It was alright to start with 50 people but like this? No, nothing for me.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 23, 2017, 03:39:25 AM
Quote from: Nilla
We have discussed the warehouse before. It does work better now, than it did, but still it's not perfect. I'm not so fond of the combination textile/metal. ... Is it possible to set a limit for each product?

Yes, it is not perfect. And it will never be if we don't get new flags. We cannot define a limit for resources, only for categories of resources (flags). We can store ores in the warehouse too if we want. My first thought was to let it process near the mines and not waste space in the warehouse by reserving it for heavy ores. I found some nice photos of old Swedish smelteries. Maybe I will make one, if back with creating models. Then it could make sense to have something like a managed storage building for ore. Full control of the stored resources is only possible by the trading post function. But there the resources cannot be used by workers. It needs a manual step to release the resources to the next storage building. CC has such a distribution building.

Quote from: Nilla
I have another request about the mill. Could the footprint be changed, to get a possible to build a road to the bridge? People use that bridge, so it would be nice to build a road to connect it.

I tried it when making the mill but found no way. The tiles on the slopes can not be used to build a road, also not after flatting it by the quarry function. At least not in the building. Maybe there is a trick and another modder can give an advice.

Quote from: Nilla
The game goes on the same way. Now the population grows, so it makes a little bit more fun, but honestly; real time is not my game. It was alright to start with 50 people but like this? No, nothing for me.

I think realtime needs nomads in early game. In an interesting and balanced way. Or our start condition with 40 or 50 people. When looking at your pop chart the game gets dynamic after you reached these inhabitants.

Anyway the ironman mode as starting condition is a fail. Nomads are not "ironman". They age in high speed and ignore all other properties too. Probably no way to realize a difficulty level in this way. As a separate mod it would work of course.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 23, 2017, 05:34:43 AM
To the warehouse. I think it's not bad to leave the ore (and especially firewood) outside the warehouse. You have to think a bit more about a good location with mines close, but that will rarely be a problem.  But I would like to separate textiles and metals. In this game I have 2 tailors close to the warehouse and 2 close to barns in the "sheep area". The warehouse vendor is quite unreliable; sometimes he ignores the wool; the warehouse is empty and the coat production in the center is bad. Sometimes he has a fancy on wool; the warehouse is full, the barns close to the other tailors are quite empty and the production of those tailors is bad. It's quite random. The production would be more realable, if there was a separate textile warehouse or no warehouse for textiles at all.

It's a pity about the nomads. I had the idea of giving the iron man mode a second chance; taking a lot of nomads at the beginning, no farming and no herbalist. I haven't tested the influence of a bad health and I really like the thought, that health has an impact on the gameplay. I would also like that happiness had a larger impact. Anyhow the ironman mode isn't that difficult. It's easier than playing without schools, similar to taking a lot of nomads.

This will be the last pictures from this settlement. The three first pictures show, why you can't really rely on farming, if you play with a harsh climate.

First picture

A cold summer. It's July and the temperature is dropping, august had frost.

Second picture

The same fields a very mild summer. But it might give you some trouble as well; winter's coming fast and the time might be too short to harvest all.

Third picture

Production numbers. The year before was cold, but far from as bad as on the first picture. I estimate the average harvest on each field/orchard is 200-220. Year 83 I guess it was less than 50.

Fourth picture

Something to cheer you up, if everything works too smooth!  ;D :o

Fifth picture

Watch out!
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 24, 2017, 01:25:28 PM
Thanks again for your testing and suggestions @Nilla! You are right, it would be nice to separate textiles from metals but it would cause other storage problems. I'm satisfied with the flagging in this mod under the limited conditions and the main category of materials is a necessary evil. A couple of new flags would open the door to a better gameplay.

The ironman mode I did not want to cancel. It was not working as starting condition. I made a separate mod and increased the difficulty. Call me sick but it would not deserve this name in combination with a vanilla game for example if not +100% required food and clothes. ;D

It would be very interesting to see this mode in a Nordic game. An advantage of this solution is that you can play it with all start conditions and also with other mods like CC or DS Village. Download here (http://www.banishedventures.com/ironman/).
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 24, 2017, 02:13:07 PM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on January 24, 2017, 01:25:28 PM
Call me sick but it would not deserve this name in combination with a vanilla game for example if not +100% required food and clothes. ;D

WOW! That's a challenge! A crazy challenge! I will try it. But not at once. I've started another crazy challenge. I have a "new" computer and installed Banished new. That means, that I have no achievements, but I will make them all in one game. I made it once before. It was one of the best games I made. It's hard but possible. Most of the achievements is no big deal to make together. The one that messes things up, is the "Mountain Men": everything has to be done on a small mountain map.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride and Orinnon - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 28, 2017, 05:32:34 AM
I'm making a small brake in my vanilla game. I'm on my way to get the achievements. The hard start is done. I managed to collect a bigger store from the start this time, so the years after this picture worked without any big problems. I'm building a trading economy now and will go for 400 (One with Nature), 600 and 900 inhabitants, when I return to this game. But first I want to test the new ironman!

I guess my friend @Tom Sawyer want to know, if the hardest possible conditions are possible, so "Harsh" climate, "Survivors" it is. I think "Nomads" is even harder, but I don't dare to test that option yet. As always, when I test an unusual hard start, I kill some people, before I find a start that works. The "normal" start when you play survivors with a harsh climate, is to build a house: They would freeze to death faster than starve, so food can wait. But that's not how it works here. They need more food and they need it fast. First attempt; starvation!  :'(

New strategy; first build the smallest barn, send 1 hunter to hunt the closest flock reindeer, than the house. I was a bit unlucky and didn't pay attention: The builders started to build the house. I used 5 builders and used the priority tool for the barn but no one wanted to build it. I realized too late, that there must have been a bush of blueberries on the spot, where I put the small barn. The basked stood there and since there was no place to carry it into, the barn couldn't be built; again starvation!  :'( :-[

Third attempt; barn, hunter, house; this time better located. The close deer flock was big. 7 reindeer slaughtered. Everyone could eat as much meat as they pleased; no one starved. The freeze icon just appeared, as the house was done, but everyone could get warm fast enough. Start managed.  :) But this joy didn't last many years.  :(  I choose a map, as I use to; if the starting position seems reasonable, I'll take it. The problem in this case; there were 6 adults and 5 rather young children. The couple who took the first house had one child from the start and two more were born in the following few years. Even if I waited some years, to build houses for the other families (first tool- and clothes production), there were too many children to feed for the 6 adults. The food storage, that wasn't that bad the first years dropped. I was hoping, that the oldest children who were 8, 5, 5 from the start, soon would become adults and help out. But that too takes longer, until they are 12; too late to save the situation. I stopped the game before anyone starved but I'm sure, it wouldn't have worked this way; 7 adults , one of them uneducated, couldn't support 8 children.  :-\

What could be done? I can think of a few possibilities to manage the start.

1. Choose a map with more older children.
2. Take nomads very early but without building any houses for them. We don't want any new small children.
3. Only build 1 house until some of the children are getting adults.
4. Use another mod with houses for smaller families.

I think all possibilities could work. The important thing will be, not to have too many children/students compared to adults, and also keep in mind, that an uneducated "is worth" 75% of an educated as producer. I don't really like to have a lot of homeless people a long time. The idea of taking a lot of nomads, let them work to feed the "original" children but not allowing them to have any themself, not even giving them a home. No! Not a nice policy.  :-\ :( This option is hard enough, so I choose what seemed to be the easiest alternative: Use the "Forest outpost". It also has another advantage; the small workshop. OK, I admit it might be a little "cheaty" in a hard game, but I will use it anyway. You will not need any large blacksmiths or tailors for a long time. I guess, the population will stay small for quite a while. You can also locate the big buildings better; close to mines/sheep/warehouse, not be forced to use the starting position. I will also shameless use the other smaller buildings from @kid1293. I concider to take nomads, so I've loaded his tiny mod. I will use all possibilities!  :-[

The map I first opened had a promising starting position, only 2 children, 5 and 4 years old. I think it's good to have few children from the start. It would have been better, if they were older, but this will do. I've only played 6 years but it looks much better than my last attempt. I have good hopes, that it could work; at least for some time.  ;D

Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 28, 2017, 10:57:59 AM
Sure. I want to know. :)

It seems you can manage these extrem conditions too. I did not try it so much but thought it will be the end of the difficulty range and not possible under the hardest map and start conditions. And what a brutal strategy, Haha. To keep nomads as slaves to feed the "original" citizen and not to allow them to get children.^^ They also will die first when food is low because they have to take the rest from the barn after your greedy citizens have carried all at home. Seems people become cruel under cruel conditions!^^

I also think it is cheaty to crack the ironman by using mods like Tiny and to add a lot of nomads. But why not. I find it interesting to play with it and to look how it works. Probably without helping mods it would be impossible on this map. But who knows.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 29, 2017, 06:55:38 AM
I'm pretty sure too, it has to be the end of difficulties. It's hard. As you can see; it still works, even without any cruel slavery! But only thanks to all the small buildings. But you said something @Tom Sawyer; the word "impossible". That triggers something! I guess you have noticed it before and used that word deliberately! ;) Maybe I have to give it a try; iron man without any other mods than the North. But in that case; it has to be called "Iron woman".  ;D

You said, they need double food and double clothes but I also have the impression, that they also need more tools than usual. Is that impression right or just a feeling, that comes, because I have to produce so much food, that the time for other things is so limited?

You may see, that I'm building a school. I have decided to educate all children and take the longer time to get more productive adults. I think it will pay off. I have taken 2 batches (=couples) of nomads. I will take some from time to time, but not too many; maybe letting 1/3 of the workforce be uneducated, not much more. And I give houses to all nomads. The first couple even got a big Russian house! ;D The only one in the settlement! The reason was that the woman was 39 years old as she arrived, too old to fill the house with many mouths to feed. In fact, she didn't get any baby at all. Nomads have to "prove themself worth" working one summer before they become a house, and obvious, then she was too old.

You may see, that in the few years between year 7 and 13, I have started to replace the small buildings with larger, more permanent ones. At the beginning I only used the instant tools, now I still send more or less everyone out in the forests to collect wild food and herbs in summer and one or other unlucky reindeer, that's straying into the village, may be taken down, but otherwise I use the permanent buildings.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 29, 2017, 11:00:17 AM
No slavery is nice to hear and your probation time sounds Ok to me. But with 39 it was her last chance to get a child and you let her sleep alone in the forest until she is too old and only then give her a house? This is cruel too!^^

I also think the early school will pay off. Probably they would fail without education. Tool production is unchanged. So this feeling comes from the difficulty in general. Your food graph looks much more interesting than in your last game where it was going straight upwards. This chart here I would describe as it has not decided yet in which direction it wants to go. I'm curious.

And for your next adventure you can use Ironwoman.pkm (http://www.banishedventures.com/downloads/Ironwoman.pkm).  ;D

Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 30, 2017, 05:28:19 AM
The name "Ironwoman" pleases me! :) I hope there are no additional mean things! ;) Of cause I will give it a try, in any case.  I have a small suggestion, to make quite a big difference between the options "ironman" and "ironwoman", with what I think not much work: I have one big issue playing "ironman". It's the real time aging. It's boring! The dynamic of the game gets too slow. It is right, that in one way it makes the game more difficult; the children/students stay unproductive longer but it also makes it easier to control the population growth; it takes a long time until people die of old age, giving (unplanned) room for new couples. A controlled growth is very important, when they need so much food. So I think the one difficulty matches the other.

Anyway; I must disappoint you @Tom Sawyer; the food graph is starting to look like it use to.  :-[ ;D Not quite as extreme as in my other games, but after I managed to purchase some seed potatoes, it looks safe. The production and the consumption are about the same and I can also buy some food, so the store grows, not fast but safe enough, to let some of the young adults move out, even as their mothers are young enough to have more babies. You can see, 3 newborn at the same time; that increases the demand for food a great deal but I'm confident, that it could be managed.

I'm still micromanaging a lot; changing between summer- (food) and winterwork (building, clearing land, firewood, tools, clothing, filling market and trading port) but not much during the season. You can see the content of my trading port. I'm selling all venison and the surplus of logs, charcoal and herbs. There are also some salmon in the port. I don't sell much, but it's convenient to use as "lose change" if a few units are missing. I haven't barter traded for some time. It's quite obvious, that the merchants have been richer; bringing more coins. Do they also arrive more often?
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 30, 2017, 09:27:58 AM
Haha No, same conditions for women. But I thought ironman should run in real time. So I have to make a third version for ironwoman on speed? ;D

Your chart runs really good now. But it still looks nervous. I don't trust the trend.^^ The merchants don't arrive more often but they have more money at the beginning.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 31, 2017, 03:39:06 AM
Do you trust the trend now, @Tom Sawyer?  ;D

Again, I was very lucky! I cursed myself, because I was so pleased about the seed potatoes, that I forgot to order the important sheep. But I was happy to see, that this merchant was a real skilled businessman. He saw the needs of the settlement, as he visited the first time and the second time, not only brought some sheep but also apple- and barley seeds!

I also feel safe enough to let all adult couples have houses. I still stick to the small 4 person cottages but I'm thinking of building some larger soon, too. The ratio of uneducated (now 65%) works. It's sometimes a bit annoying when the uneducated choose professions, where I don't want them. The miller is one of them. There are 5 houses with educated closer but, no! One uneducated seems to have assigned himself to that profession, no matter what.  :o :( Unless you have a surplus of workers, there's not much use to run the mill with an uneducated miller. Despite this, I will take more nomads from time to time. They will no longer be necessary workforce. Just a way to speed things up a little bit.



Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 31, 2017, 07:27:42 AM
Yes, that's the moment to say... Damn why the hell I did not buy this stock.^^

Maybe you were lucky with your farm supplies but (I learned a new English phrase) Fortune favours the bold. Or so. :)

The mill is also productive with uneducated millers but of course it is annoying and uneducated guys really should work as doctor or teacher. Funny game. Sometimes I enabled/disabled a building so long until an educated citizen found this workplace but that's annoying too.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on January 31, 2017, 07:35:13 AM
Yes, this stock isn't as bad as expected.  ;D

Yea, you're right even an uneducated makes a small profit, but in this part of the game it's too small. There's so few people, so there are better alternatives for him to make his living, like chopping trees or making charcoal to sell, even go fishing if I would need the food fast.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on January 31, 2017, 08:46:33 AM
i get the problem the other way. the uneducated go farm and my food production goes down.if enough uneducated banis go farm, my average yield per field goes way down. usually happens just before the game sends me a huge group of nomads.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 03, 2017, 04:16:52 AM
I hope, you didn't invest in that stock after all @Tom Sawyer! ;) Now the graph looks very different. I also see no chance, that it's going to change to the better. I made some experimenting; building more and larger houses. As you can see; not very successful. Too many children were born. I can say for sure; 22 adults can't support 17 children on "ironman/ironwoman"!

I will go on and see what happens, but I'm pretty sure, that it will get worse. As it is now around 3000 food is missing every year. In summer everyone except the teacher produce food. I could maybe build a third fisher to use in winter, but we also need some other work done, so I can't produce much more food. Students will graduate to increase the workforce, but unfortunately more children will be born too, at least at the same speed. Unlike at the beginning, it will be no use, to take nomads, to increase the number of adults. Now there are 3-4 nomads each time; families with children. Of cause I could "fake demolish" some houses, where children could be born and throw the families out in the woods or at least let them change houses, so no young family live in a large house. But this is an experiment, so I will not.

Of cause, food merchants could help but with only one trading port and no orders of food (so far), I guess it will not be any 3000 food each year. One more port would also not help. I don't have enough goods to sell or enough workers to fill a second port.

If anyone give "ironman/ironwoman" a try; never let the number of children+students be more than ½ of the adults. With that "rule of thumb" it might work. But as soon as there's more unproductive; there will be trouble. It is well possible, to have a game with few children; just build very few houses. But unfortunately, it makes an already slow game, even slower. As I said; that's my biggest issue with this game: It's too slow, to really catch my interest. After this game, I will give the "Nomads" a try. I'm not sure, that it could work, with that many uneducated. But at least, it's not boringly slow.  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2017, 01:45:24 PM
Why different? Looks to me like a perfect chance to buy more stocks of your little iron company. I will order some more. Only about experimenting management better not to write in your report. ;D

Its obviously an effect of harder conditions to make the game slower. A pity and how to solve with always uneducated nomads. More than to 75% we cannot increase their quality I think. To lower the birthrate would be not a problem directly in the ironman mod. Also a lower maximum age for more "dynamic".^^ And would it be a way to use boarding houses for less children? But also only a way to slow down.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 03, 2017, 02:44:03 PM
i wondered about a boarding house for NILLA too. it would use less firewood. i wonder if proper time would help. it slows the game down but spacing the kids out might be beneficial in you. it would give you time to build supplies and food.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 04, 2017, 05:34:55 AM
You´re a clever man @Tom Sawyer! I mean buying more shares! (Well, if I think; not only that)  ;D

Thanks for your suggestions, guys!

To better micromangament: I think I make as much as possible. There could maybe be a possibility to produce more trading goods and buy more food, instead of producing as much food as I could. Some other productions are more efficient, than food producing. The problem is; the change takes time, (building more trading ports and filling them with goods) and in that time, I can´t produce that much food and many would starve to death. Also some of the more profitable productions lose much of their profit with uneducated workers, so a trade based economy is harder, when the population is not 100% educated.

To boardinghouses: The thought has crossed my mind, too but it´s not a good idea. You are right, @brads3; it would need a little less firewood, but it would not give less children. In a normal boarding house (I haven´t used your upper floor inn enough to tell, if it´s different) a family gets 3 children, in a the same "speed" as normal. Since I`ve built a mixture of houses for 2 and 3 children, in the end it would give more children. The one thing that leads to less children with boarding houses is, that no new couples are founded. But as long as I don´t build any new houses and no house is free, when a couple dies of old age, no new couple could move together either.

And @brads3; "ironman" includes a real time aging mod. That´s part of the difficulties; the children stay unproductive longer, than in a "vanilla speed" but it sure makes the game slow. Could anything be done, to better fit the "ironman" conditions? I agree @Tom Sawyer; reduce the uneducated penalty is not a good option. Could anything be done, that nomads have no (or at least less) children, when they arrive? I´m not sure about a lower birthrate. It´s easy to calculate the population growth, the way it is now: You build a new house and know, that 2 or 3 (depending on the house) children will be born the next few years. It wouldn´t change much, if it took 5 years to the next child to born. It would be the same number, just harder to control. What would change things to the better, would be if the children became students and adults earlier. 12 years to be student and then at least 4 years in school (if the students doesn´t live very close to the school it often takes 6-7 years). I would reduce this. Maybe also the time in school. The age for getting the first child could be set a bit later, but I´m not sure, that the maximum age of getting children should be set lower than 40.

I will think a bit more about possibilities to change the "aging parameters" the next years of this game; as the original settlers start to die of old age. Yes! Opposit to what I thought, as I wrote my last entry; there will be more years. The food situation has recovered. Several good things happened in combination: 4 food merchants in a row, 2 very mild years and no cold, I also forgot my 3 children, born at the same time, who together with another 2 youngsters became adults, the same time as only 3 children were born. 27/15 is a big difference to 22/17 (adults/children+students). The last very varm summer, I even produced more food, than I used! :)

Now, I have decided to go on with this game in a way that make sense; building some, but not to many houses and also no more small forest houses for a 4 person family. I´m not sure about nomads. I´ll keep the well, at least for some time, but maybe I will replace it with a marketplace footprint somewhere, to get nomads in a "vanilla way". The population slowly reach a number, where the game isn´t that extremely slow anymore. That´s a good thing for an impatient person! :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 04, 2017, 07:11:41 AM
is this china??? slave labor at 15,no kids til 25,i kid/family rule,kill em off at 50.i wonder if no building the school so early would have gave you an advantage.you would have extra workers,yes lower production but 75% of 10 is still moe than 100% of 5.i would think with the game being slower,it would be easier to micro-manage them.i understand you are in extreme conditions,but how much foor is 1 person making? shouldn't 1 be producing enough food for 3 or more? say 1 food person per family be it hunter,fishing,or farming?
   you did find yourself a challenge. just think how it would be if you had your normal aging speed. triple the growth and usage in 1 year of food production.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 06, 2017, 03:16:33 PM
Could you solve your nomad crashing problem @Nilla? Would be too bad for this interesting game here.

The current values in ironman are working/school at 12, marriage and children at 16 until 40 and maximum age round about 70. We can set 12 to 10 how it is more usual in Banished and/or decrease time in school. And I tend to change the wooden and stone huts to 4 inhabitants. To get a relation to other houses like the red cottage which needs more space. So a 4 x 4 for 4 people and a 4 x 6 for 6 people. Then we have 2-child-households for better growth control via early game huts. Is just a thought.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 07, 2017, 02:59:19 AM
Yes, @Tom Sawyer, I had no more crashes, after I went back to a save before I deleted the well. I have played a bit more, but there isn't much to tell. At the moment, things goes on as they should. I have the population growth under control. The food production is alright. Average there's less than 1000 food "missing" each year and that's no problem to buy. Goods years, I produce about as much as my people need. The rate productive/unproductive is around 2/1. That works fine. I even had to build more barns to store all food!  ;D

@brads3; this is the North; harsh climate. Ironman means a Banni needs 200 food instead of 100. Only few food producers produce 400 food. Hunters and herdsmen are the only one, who could produce much more. Fisher can produce about that amount or a bit more, if the location of the fisher is good and the workers educated, but hardly any others, like farmers and gatherers. And to your calculation about the school. I calculate this way. A student spend around 5 years in school. You lose 5 years of production. After that he works 50 years. If he's uneducated he loses 25% each year. It takes 20 years until he has cached up with an uneducated but after that it's only win. So, a school pays off, if you can manage the to survive the "hard years" and wait. And you know, @brads3 the slavery here isn't worse, than if you're forcing the 10 years old to work instead of going to school (and maybe even have children)! But we already knew; Banished is a cruel game! ;)

The screenshot shows my "spring staffing". In July the builder, woodcutter, charcoal burner, tailor and trader will have to leave their tasks and go to pick apples. When the harvest is done, they will go back. The farmers will also be blacksmiths, vendors, and what I need most of miller, miner, smelter, brickmaker, stonecutter(clay). You can also see, that my stores mainly contain salmon. I sell venison and mutton. That's like always playing the North on harsh! Proteins, proteins, proteins; everything else is harder.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Abandoned on February 07, 2017, 06:42:32 AM
Glad map continues despite crash problem, good that it is solved. :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 07, 2017, 07:34:40 AM
For me it looks like we finally found the right balance for you @Nilla. ;D

Only the early game stagnation we have to solve in real time. And you captured a nice scene of your village. I would like to see more views from this perspective. Did you spend some thoughts in visuals or is it just a beauty follows function thing?
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 10, 2017, 06:32:49 AM
@Tom Sawyer, you know me. No thought about aesthetics. It's your buildings that makes it look good, even the way I "throw them out" on the map with only functional aspects . ;)

I didn't say anything to your suggestions of reducing the family size of the vanilla houses. It's alright with me. I find it's important to have the possibility to build houses of different size, especially if you play a real time aging mod. Of cause it would be nicer with houses of different sizes in the same style; here Nordic cottages for bigger and smaller families. But I know, it's a lot of work. Besides there are some other really nice mods, we can use for this.

I've bin thinking a bit more, how a real time mod could be constructed to work. 12 years to become a student/adult without school is too high. Look at the first picture. This young woman moved in with this man as she was 16 or 17. Now she's 22 and still a student. You can see the school. It's not that far away. No one lives far away, so it wasn't different, before she moved either. I find, that unless the school is very far away (big map, many students, few schools) everyone should be graduated, when they are 20. I have tested most of the real time mods and to be honest; I don't like anyone of them and I don't know how it could be improved. There are small differences but nothing that really solves the disadvantages. I've said it before; these weird "vanilla aging" has its reason. It gives the game a good flow. I would very much to test "ironwomen" with "vanilla aging", then we can discuss a bit more about the other parameters of a "real time" that works as good as possible.

The game goes on in the same way, not much new to tell. I've started to be a bit more "daring"; increasing the number of new houses and with that, also new babies. I've also taken a few more nomads. We'll see if I can mange. I have a plan to increase the trade a bit more and eventually build a second trading port.

By the way; thesecond picture is also a small reminder; if you return to Scandinavia from your Russian excursions; why not a small "sjukstuga"?
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 10, 2017, 09:54:09 AM
NILLA, you are too used to the speed growth. TOM is trying to slow you down and make the games more intereting and balance. it is a juggle. when the propertime mod was developed  it was tweaked a few times. i thought we did get the upper school age lowered.here in the US. kids start school at 6. to me i want them out of school by 15 or 16 in game.plus the child-bearing years was expanded longer. it is slow growth for the early yrs but then with the longer child-bearing the population does pick up.those early years give us time to get food stocks ahead. to me the goal with the aging mods is to better balance the game. the old way the food graphs yoyo much more and has bigger drops.the way the iron game looks .i'd be afraid of outgrowing the resources.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 10, 2017, 04:07:29 PM
Yes @brads3, I always try to support real time and to get a better flow without this strange high speed aging. I mean, it's a simulation with seasons which affects farming/economy as well as visuals and ambient sounds and even crops and livestock grow in real time. Only citizens are from another planet.^^

But for special wishes a special edition @Nilla. IronwomanSpeed.pkm (http://www.banishedventures.com/downloads/IronwomanSpeed.pkm)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 10, 2017, 05:35:40 PM
should we take bets on how many times before she survives?? i say 4
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 11, 2017, 04:37:08 AM
@brads3, I know I'm an impatient person. I want things to happen all the time; new things, otherwise it gets boring, not more interesting. I don't find it harder to build up a storage in "vanilla aging". Even if the population grows faster, the children also become adults faster. You just have to follow the growth by building enough producers. That's what I like to do. That's my personality. Not everyone is the same. Your way is fine, too. So, I'm looking forward to test the "ironwomanspeed". I will in a few days. I will go on with this game a little longer. I didn't play yesterday and I want to see the consequences of the many young children in this part of the game.

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion for a bet @brads3. Is it survive more than 4 years? In that case, of cause I will bet against it. If I manage 60 years in a real age mod. I will manage at least 60/4= 15 in a "normal" speed, probably longer! ;) What's the stake of the bet?  ;D
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 11, 2017, 08:09:29 AM
no i was thinking 4 attempts of starting and killing off the banis.i remember a few games it took you a few attempts before you got a good plan to manage the town so it did not have big die offs. the impossable start took you a few,and i thought you restarted the "iron" about 2 or 3 times.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 11, 2017, 08:26:29 AM
i haven't had a chance to play in a couple weeks since i loaded the new CC version. i had to chase gremlins after the load. finally i did find the mod that was crashing me. i ws able to do some testing on some mods yesterday.
  yep,i like being different. but being crazy is fun.lol. but i do enjoy reading abandoned stories and see how different mods look. it is neat to see how everyone plays. makes for a better game that we aren't forced to play the same or get to the same goal.more freedom.
   i was working on playing with the north and cc in 1 map. wanted to build every different building in 1 map. it was going to take many months. the game was functioning though there were some glitches. with several new huge mods added the last couple weeks,i am unsure and debating with myself on which way i want to play and build.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 11, 2017, 08:28:40 AM
@brads3 I accept the bet and I think she will manage it right from the first start. But after some years she will get problems because the speed aging people are dying down before they can build up a working settlement under these conditions. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 12, 2017, 03:46:25 AM
OK. @brads3, now I understand. And you might be right, I'm not so sure, that I can make it at the first attempt. The start of survivors+ harsh climate + ironman/woman is hard. A start with normal aging isn't different from one with real time, so I know how it has to be done, but there is absolutely no room for the smallest mistake. Maybe I will try it tonight.

I played a few more years. It's quite obvious, how the food graph and the population is connected. Many children-> Food down. Now the stores were big enough, so there's no real problem. But if the number of unproductive gets higher than about 50% of the productive, I can't even produce, as much food as they need in a good year. If it's a cold summer, more is missing, than I can buy. I have developed a "rule" about nomads. I only take nomads, if the educational rate rises above 75%. That seems to work alright.

@Tom Sawyer, you have increased the amount of money the merchants bring at the beginning, but it looks like it's not increasing with the population (at least not between 10-70). As I said; I must buy food, but I have to make a lot of barter trade. I don't get enough coins. I have more goods to sell, than the merchant have coins. In a normal Nordic game, I like it that way; you don't have to buy so much food, you can make some gambling and wait. But here you really have to buy more or less all you can get, there's no room for gambling. If the merchants would have brought more coins, I could have bought more food and developed the settlement faster-> more fun.

Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 12, 2017, 04:24:39 AM
@Nilla The next step of stacking imported goods is at 100 people. Before it was another step at 50 for less goods at the beginning. They also bring a bit more in general. Probably we should keep the balance of the standard version or increase it slightly.

I look forward to your attempts on speed. :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Abandoned on February 12, 2017, 05:05:12 AM
@Nilla , doing good so far, looking forward to seeing how this town grows, those are some pretty big lakes.  :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 12, 2017, 12:06:33 PM
NILLA,do you have a rough idea of what you average food production per food worker is?? food worker being hunters,gatherers,fishermen,farmers,etc.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 13, 2017, 04:32:18 AM
@Tom Sawyer, as I said; I don't know how much coins, I like the merchants to bring. In a normal game I find it perfect, the way it has been before. In ironman however it's different. You had well understood, that my biggest problem was the speed. When you have played as much Banished as I have, you learn to control your population. You know quite well how many houses to build at what point, to get the population growth you want. Fast or slow; you have control. If each person need more food, like in ironman, you only have to figure out; how many mouths your population could feed and then let the settlement grow in a sustainable way. I can't produce much more food than I did (without any additional mods) but I could produce a bit more profitable goods to sell. I also now made a lot of barter trade. If it was possible to use the profit of the coins more, I could have bought more food; not to increase my stores, but to be able to let the population grow a bit faster. Of cause, I could have built a second trading port earlier (and maybe a third) to get this, but I don't really like to spam a settlement with ports. I will think a bit more about this in my next game.

Sorry @Abandoned; I've learned from you; Just as it's getting really interesting, you have to say goodbye! ;) I will leave this settlement. But the iron experiment will continue!

@brads3. This is the North played on harsh, so it's very much different from CC, where one ricefarmer can produce 4000 food.  ::) I have a mixture of educated and uneducated workers, so the production varies a bit more than usual but I guess the average is about:

shepherd (2 shepherds work 5 maximum sheepruns): 1200
reindeer herdsman/hunter: 900
fisher: 450
gatherer 200 (+some firewood, that also increases the productivity of the forester)
farmer 200 (not working the whole year)

I wanted to start my new game yesterday, this time IronwomanSpeed. But that sure was a big struggle. I didn't find a map. Usually, I don't put much effort in finding the right map. Most of the time the first is good enough. On rare occasions, if I want something special or sometimes, when the starting position is impossible, I might have to look at a few, but never like this.

Except a starting position from where you can gather enough wild food to survive the first year, I didn't want more than 10 people (stranded has 6 adults). It would be too hard to support more children from the start. I think I looked at 20 maps. The first picture shows a summery: 15 people on an island! (It wasn't always 15 people and an island, but if the map looked alright, there were a lot of children and if there were few children, they were stranded on an island or a tiny neck of land, where they never could have found enough food, without building a bridge or walk far and there will be no time for that, if they want to survive the first winter.) I like these Nordic lake maps. But after 5 islands in a row, I thought; maybe I'll go for a Nordic wast forest map instead; at least there will be no islans! Ha!Ha! Look at the second picture: I was really haunted by islands >:( ::)

I said to myself; I will look at 10 more maps. If I can't use any of them; I will quit this project. It's "Fate", shouldn't be!  It took to number 9, until I found my map. I can't believe it. I have never seen such a nice map and only 2 children. F I N A L L Y !  :) :D

@brads3 and @Tom Sawyer you are both wrong. ;) It didn't take 4 attempts to survive the start, but it didn't work the first time either. If you've tried to start a Nordic game; survivors on harsh with ironman/woman you will know, that the time to build a barn and a house, get some food and firewood is very short. You have to be very precise and only do what's absolutely needed, to avoid, that anyone starves or freezes to death. On my first attempt, I first marked enough trees to cut and after that one stone. (I build the smallest Nordic barn and the Izba. I need some 40 logs and 4 stones. I choose that house, because it's faster to build than a vanilla wood house; 3 builders can work on it). Unfortunately one laborer carried these 4 stones around and didn't want to put them on the stock pile, >:( so it took too long to start to build the house; everyone froze to death! :'( The second time, I marked the stone before the trees and everything went well.

Since the search for a proper map took so long, I didn't play much. The third picture shows how far I got. I forgot to make a picture of the maps and mods. I'll make one the next time. I have the Forest outpost and the Tiny mod loaded from my last game. But I have decided not to use the small very convenient workshop. I know you find it a bit "cheaty" for this difficult conditions @Tom Sawyer!  ;)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 14, 2017, 03:32:21 AM
I see, this little rascal with the stones in his trouser pocket screwed my bet.^^ The vanilla wooden hut is faster, also with only 2 workers and the best choice for the start. You could not know and I made a Wiki term (http://www.banishedventures.com/wiki/izba/) for it. But in any case you have mastered this start, even with proper smithy and tailoring. Great! It will be interesting to see the influence of the speed aging under these conditions. :)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 15, 2017, 04:00:19 AM
You are right @Tom Sawyer, I can see, that it's faster to build a wooden house than an Izba. I should have known. I looked at it the first time I used the Russian house some time ago. Did I look/calculated that bad or have you changed anything? Anyway, it doesn't matter, it worked this way, too.

I like this game better than my last; not that slow. I have only played a few years, so there's not much to tell. Things are under control. We will see how it will look, as the first generation starts to die of old age, but I think it will be fine. One question @Tom Sawyer: Have you made any changes at the vanilla marketplace? I seldom build one, when I play the North, so I don't remember. Does it also store raw material, like ore, iron....... or only "consumers products"? I have seen a few reindeer furs once, otherwise nothing so far. Maybe some materials will land there, if I let the vendor work a bit longer.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 15, 2017, 05:59:51 AM
I did not change anything in the last versions. Actually the difference in building time is minimal. Its more the building materials which makes the vanilla hut to the best choice at the start. The marketplace stores food, fuels, herbs, tools, clothes and materials (metals, textiles, charcoal). No logs, stones or ores. It looks a bit like a lack of small markets for early game if you have to build a huge market place. Maybe it's not so good that the village shop is a brick building. But we have nice small markets from Kid for example.

With your speedies it seems to work. Probably we will never beat this vanilla cheat aging.^^
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: brads3 on February 15, 2017, 08:06:54 AM
how much are you holding back your population growth??  no offence but usually you have lots more people by now. the number of people you have looks like my game pace after i add a nomad couple or 2. not tryint to wish evil on you,but don't you play with disasters on?? 1 storm and you is in trouble.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 15, 2017, 09:59:20 AM
I had two, what I think, good reasons to build that big vanilla marketplace. First I wanted to make sure, that the blacksmith and tailor could get enough material even after a while. If you start with the small workshop, it doesn't matter much. It works at the beginning and will be replaced with better located blacksmiths and tailors anyhow. The small market from @kid1293, that I used in my first ironman game, only contains consumers goods. For my second purpose; to get the food from the remote barns close to where people live, it would have been good enough, but the big one also supports a larger area and one market will be enough for a long time. That means, I don't have to alter vendors between several markets. I guess it will take long, until I have people enough to occupy 2 vendors.

I hold the start back very much @brads. Just the start, now I don't have to care about it much. If you want a game with a fast growth. The beginning is very important. Here I had only 2 children from the start. Normally with a fast growth; I wouldn't have chosen it. I also was very slow building houses for everyone. At my first picture from this village from year 3, you can only see one house. Most people are still homeless. If I want a fast growth, I build houses as fast as I can. (Or at least I let every family live in the hous(es), for some time each, to let every family have a baby) I didn't do any of that here. Deliberately not. The start is hard. I wanted it slow.

And I do like a small fire or tornado from time to time to cheer things up a bit, if it gets boring!  The infestations however, I could do without!;)
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 16, 2017, 05:42:59 AM
I see, that again I forgot to show you the map settings and mods. Here they are. Except ironwoman and the North I think, I've only used the small round Tiny Town hall from @kid1293 and of cause the Izba. The vanilla town hall isn't one of my favourite Banished buildings, so I decided to use this much nicer one, even if it's faster and cheaper to build. ;)

I'm changing the strategy a little bit from my first iron attempt. I will reduce the farming; no fields but still some apple orchards. Fruit is expensive to buy and the time a farmer has to spend picking apples is very short. I will try to produce more high value export goods in this game. I don't plan to take any nomads and now after my 2 uneducated are dead, a high production is guaranteed.  You may see, that I've already built a second trading port. I will buy vegetable and grain, trying to avoid barter trade. I'm also buying some iron ore and wool. It will take some time, until I can reach a mountain to build a mine and I'm not sure, how long the bog iron will last. It took some time until I got the sheep. If I hadn't bought wool, there wouldn't have bin enough clothing.

As i found this map, I thought it was perfect, but of cause, the perfect maps are rare. This one has a nice big spot of flat land, some good positions for fisher and room in between for a few trading ports but the mountains for a mine are far away, same as a stream for a mill. And if I build a mill in the closest stream up north, I will block the access to the east lake for traders. I haven't decided yet, what I will do if/when, I can expand that far.

As expected, one thing is harder in vanilla aging; the number of old age deaths. It seems like a lot of people die at the same time. I've cut in the population graph. The number of adults gets down from time to time and I get too few workers. In the real time speed, it was easier to plan, how to micromanage. On the other hand, I thought, it would be easier to plan the "right" population growth in this game, but I'm not so sure it is. If you get too many unproductive children and students, of cause, it doesn't take a long, until some students are graduated. But often some old people die as well, and nothing is changed.

But despite these difficulties, this game runs well. I'm kind of glad, that I got some experience of this iron options in that other slow speed game. So far I can manage.

Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 17, 2017, 05:50:09 AM
A small report from my Elkhorning. Year 34, the settlemet still lives. At the moment I'm struggling with many old age deaths. The grownups population gets down, but there are a lot of children and students. This makes it very hard to have enough people for all work, that has to be done. It takes several years to clear land to build more pastures and orchards. This might be crucial for the further development.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 17, 2017, 08:57:13 AM
Maybe I was not totally wrong in our little bet. That speed people run out of childbearing age too fast under these conditions. At least, if I compare the pop graph with your real time game... it was not slower there.

And I found a mining location not far away from your settlement. ;D
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 17, 2017, 10:14:52 AM
yes, I have noticed, too, that this game is almost as slow as the real time game. I'm a bit surprised. But I ran it unusually slow (too slow!) at the beginning, and, you are so right, overaging can be a problem. And yes I also know that I can build 2 mines (one on each side of the mountain) on the other side of the river. I guess it's the way I'm going. But I still have iron enough. I can even put some steel tools in the trading ports.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 20, 2017, 05:23:43 AM
I've played a little bit more. I can say the "iron mode" works, even if you're playing the North with a harsh climate;
- if you let the settlement grow slow
- if you micromanage a lot

It works with "vanilla speed" and "real time speed". It's a little bit easier to control the growth, if you play "real time speed" but "vanilla speed" is on the other hand a bit more forgiving, if you make a mistake and let the number of children grow too high.

Do I like it?

Yes and no!

- Yes, it's interesting, because it's really a challenge. There's not much room for mistakes. All the time I have too few people. The challenge is to use them well. All the time I'm tempted to let the settlement grow faster but as soon as I try, I start to get trouble. I like that.

- No, the game is too slow. It has to be, to work. After I've found out how to micromanage, it's quite tedious. Same things all the time. Each month; let the shepherds tend another pasture, every couple of month; let the vendor fill another market, every spring; let some forester be gatherers and herbalist, every July send more or less everyone to pick apples, when the first frost comes; let them go back to their original work....... the same things year after year. Not much creativity and problem solving here.  :-\

I guess I will play "iron woman" again from time to time. But I don't think I will again on " Nordic harsh". I have proved, that it's possible, but I can't see how it could be made in a to me agreeable speed and without much (after some time boring) micromanagement. Maybe it will be possible on a mild climate or without the North. I will think about it and probably try something later.

Anyhow, I will play this game a little bit more. Despite what I said about slow and tedious, it's still interesting enough. I've cut in some graphs. All of a sudden, there are a lot of new young adults. That made it possible/necessary to develop the settlement a bit faster. I've built and filled two more trading ports. I have to buy 3000-6000 food every year, depending on the climate, that's more or less every vegetable and grain, the merchants bring. I don't get enough coins, so I have to barter trade a lot. That's the reason for these 2 more ports. Without them, I don't think there would be enough food.

As I guessed a few years later, as the second picture shows, the number of adults doesn't grow anymore, just the number of children and students. But I think we will manage this, too. With 4 ports, the deliveries of food will be enough. I only hope, there will be enough to sell on a longer term. I will now cross the river to get some iron ore, to be able to produce more steel tools. The first building on the other side is a market. It's always a good thing to start with, when you're developing new areas.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 27, 2017, 03:05:49 AM
I have played my Elkhorning from time to time, also the last week. There wasn't much new to tell, so I haven't written anything. As the number of adults grew, I expanded the settlement. It is very obvious; a settlement can support about 50% students+children. If it's getting more, the store of food gets down, if it's getting less, the store increases. At least this is valid on harsh, the way I play, without/with just a few additional mods. If it's real time aging or vanilla doesn't matter.

As I stopped, it was a period of many "unproductive". You can see, that the food storage are getting down. There has been many old age deaths lately, so more or less every couple has a house. There are many students, who soon will graduate. They would have had to stay at their parents a bit longer. I can build another 1-2 trading port. There are enough tools and Nordic coats in the stores to sell. As the number of adults again increases, I could have built some more food producers and sent more workers into the mines (I had to close some of my tool production, because I hadn't enough ore and not enough miners). I see no big crisis coming.

I have decided to make an end now. I've played 70 years, the same as the last iron game. There are more people here, but not much more; about +50%. As I've said it isn't possible to grow fast, at least not on harsh. The settlement isn't very big, only 129 inhabitants. 2 screenshots shows more or less everything. I've cut in some graphs.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 27, 2017, 02:55:45 PM
Thank you very much for your iron games @Nilla. It was nice to follow and to learn about how it works, because it was just a shot in the dark to make +100% of needed food and clothing. I will make an update with students at 10 years. Apart from that I would like to keep it this way if you don't have other suggestions. The difficulty via food is a mixed thing. It needs much more active playing and thinking about productivity and trading and that's good. But it also makes the game progress very slow as you showed. So it's an interesting option for a real challenge but only if you don't want a fast progress. The coat per 2 years instead of 4 is for me the better balance, also for a normal game. But it's to be balanced via production numbers there. I will not change the citizen.rsc in the Nordic mod itself.
Title: Re: Nilla, Firestelluride - testing the North, Ironman
Post by: Nilla on February 28, 2017, 04:21:00 AM
Yes, becoming a student with 10 is better than 12. Maybe you could also think about increasing the distance between the children. As it is now; you build a house for a family of 5. It takes about 4 years and the house is full. Maybe, if you build enough houses, there could be a second "batch" of children around 20 years later. I think it would be better for the game, with maybe 4 years between the children.

As you could see, it's hard but possible to give the Bannis +100% food. The +100% clothes only have an importance at the beginning, before you have any sheep. With only reindeer, it's hard (when not impossible) to give everyone clothes. Later, you don't notice so much. You need a lot of sheep and you don't get quite as many Nordic coat to export but still no problem.