World of Banished

Conversations => Suggestions and Mod Ideas => Topic started by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 03:23:58 AM

Title: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 03:23:58 AM
This is just an idea to make the game more interesting and realistic, most of it has already been made. :)

how to decide what the buildings are made out of?

By looking at the buildings roof, walls,windows , and other decorative items or items specific to a building.

construction material idea:



ROOFING:



**  reeds  **

(http://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/qf/544741425-landa-reed-roof-house-reed-roof-residential-building.jpg)


**   logs  **

(https://slm-assets3.secondlife.com/assets/857854/lightbox/16c18bf13c278ac77f91ea9d2ae59d99.jpg?1277160100)


**  planks  **

(https://rooflife-oregon.com/files/cedar-shake-roof-e1288133452479.jpg)


**  stones  **

(https://durationconstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/slate-roofing-installation-st-louis-1.jpg)


**  bricks  **

(https://wienerberger.co.uk/images/format1016x560cropped/20160603103132/import-folder.jpg)


(new profession can be added profession tile maker that makes log, stone and plank tiles or they can be made by blacksmith, brickwork makes brick tiles...)



WALL:



**leather or other fabric  **

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Roemermuseum_leather_tent_02.jpg)


**  clay  **

(https://d2v9y0dukr6mq2.cloudfront.net/video/thumbnail/VWhJVER/old-rustic-barn-with-clay-wall-in-meadow-in-country-house_ejxqswynl__F0000.png)


**  log  **

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lkl8W40-__U/VjqPwP_Hx3I/AAAAAAAAFhI/8NbzAMEvJbU/s1600/slavic%2Blog%2Bcabin%2B3.jpg)


**  stone  **

(https://handmadehouses.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/IMG_1640.jpg)


**  planks  **

(https://static2.bigstockphoto.com/3/2/2/large1500/223116871.jpg)


**  bricks  **

(https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2016/11/Elevating-House-By-Larkfleet-Group-Design-1020x610.jpg.860x0_q70_crop-smart.jpg)


**  plaster  **

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Dornstetten-p01_crop.JPG/1200px-Dornstetten-p01_crop.JPG)



WINDOWS:



**  reeds  **

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/thatpichai/thatpichai1606/thatpichai160600068/60008241-old-clay-house-with-small-windows.jpg)


**  leather or fabrics   **

(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/vintage-old-window-frame-leather-450w-108419249.jpg)


**  log  **

(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/DY0455/window-shutter-on-old-log-cabin-DY0455.jpg)


**  plank  **

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/wooden-cabin-timber-walls-joints-corner-window-shutters-door-57898939.jpg)


**  glass  **

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/jeilly/jeilly1802/jeilly180200044/96648517-two-vintage-front-glass-windows-of-an-old-house.jpg)





SPECIAL:



iron (needed to make blacksmiths anvil or mines to make tracks.. )
tools
hardwood
paint (for houses that are painted)
mud (for bakers mud ovens but they can also be made from clay, or mud walls and roofs)
different special metals and stone
different fabrics (cloth for windmill)
rope (for bridges)
candles
lamps (maybe for taverns)
anything you want..

Examples:

roof: plank tiles   wall: stone, plaster, planks (or hardwood/timber planks)   windows: glass

so building material for this house in banished would be:

plank tiles
stone
planks
plaster
glass


(http://naturalhomes.org/img/framing-half-timbered1.jpg)

Building that use plaster would also use other material like planks or bricks that are under the plaster.

Plaster can be made from clay, gypsum, lime or cement.

This kind of system is not too complicated but interesting in my opinion.

Wish I knew how to make modes, maybe someday... :)

Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: kid1293 on December 07, 2018, 04:18:59 AM
Interesting!
If all modders agreed to this we could have uniform and compatible product chains.
Maybe even distribute storage flags in a better, uniform way.

Sorry to say, we are a bunch of individualists that all have our own way of solving things.
Who knows? This can be a good reason to unite! :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 05:00:23 AM
That would be amazing. I started playing banished recently again. There is so many new mods, but as you said everyone is separating more and more instead of uniting. Hope others see this too. I am sure everyone would enjoy playing the game with all the astonishing and beautiful mods people made with added balanced product chain and a bit of realism. :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 07, 2018, 05:55:09 AM
Don't be so sure  :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 07, 2018, 08:41:55 AM
I'm all for more product chains, but when it comes to dealing with different types of roof tiles or different types of stones, not so much.  If we were capable of managing inventory better, it could work, but as it stands it would be out of control trying to manage things at that level.

I do agree that some of the homes should require better products.   A lot only need logs and stone when they are nice enough to actually require stone, lumber, glass, roof tiles and, of course, bricks if it's a brick building.

I am a huge fan of upgrades!   So my take would be most homes should have a level one version that is built with level one resources like logs and stone.   From there you upgrade to level two home with level two products like lumber, bricks, glass, roof tiles.   Then you have a level three upgrade that requires building supplies and home furnishings.  Each level improves efficiency and number of people, not sure how many levels of efficiency houses can have, may only be two, wood or stone.  So the third upgrade would just be for looks and maybe more people if possible.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out and what everyone can agree on.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 07, 2018, 09:00:48 AM
we have some of this. we do have buildings that are made from grass,lumber,etc.  as wanderer stated the game wasn't developed with that in mind. much of the game is seen as the bannies do lots themselves. initially we couldn't make bread,the bannies had to grind wheat and use it at their houses themselves.logs is a generic term that can mean lumber,planks,logs,slats,etc. many things in banished world were done that way, generic terms and the idea that the bannies do much more than we see.

         if we could split the inventory menu into food,materials,etc,then these ideas woud work and make sence.so far that isn't possabe so we just flood the inventory with items. CC did a good job of compiling many items into the building supplies.then buidings were built using pipes,glass,etc combined.getting a balance of the many workplaces is tough with the limit flags we have.if you coud contro each item individualy then it would be easier.
        thing is where is the line? the more complex and complicated things are the more we could chase away players. in the gamming world,each game has a point that is great.develop and change it more and nobody likes the game as much. SC4,FS13,CIV<4 or 5>,etc. anyone even buy SC5?
each has its limit.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 10:48:44 AM
But almost all of these items are in the mods already, they can use the same flags as they do now if nothing better becomes available. I dont really like cc building supplies system since glass, bricks, lumber are building supplies. Roof tiles are not necessary but RK added them and they are fine to me. This is smaller and less complicaited production chain than the one in cc. There are also 6 building materials available not only 3 so this could work.. But its just a suggestions people can and will do what they want :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 07, 2018, 11:52:38 AM
Brad asked about where the line is....   with mods, the line is set by each player on what they choose to install.   So, there is no need to stop making mods or impose any self limits on what level of mods should get built.  If somebody doesn't like a mod, they simply don't install it.

I think it's more about being realistic on what we expect from modders and what they will agree and take on as a challenge to create.

My understanding of what can be done with mods is very limited and pretty much based on what I've seen done while using MM8.01.   My only option is to throw ideas out there and see if it's even possible with modding alone.   Shoot for the moon and hopefully meet halfway once the modders say this or that can or can't be done.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 12:27:22 PM
I agree. if the players don't like what the mod adds, no need to install it, or they can install it but they dont have to use all the features.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 07, 2018, 12:44:07 PM
So, what you are saying is all the modders should make all the mods uniform and the same with the building requirements and production chains. So if players don't like it, what mods are they to use?   :D

Rhetorical question (no answer needed or wanted) Why are so many players using debug  :D



Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 01:08:48 PM
They shouldn't use any. There is two types of people, the ones that like to mod the game and the ones that dont. The ones that like the mods want the mods they pick to work together, I dont think they care much about the production chain as long as it has some balance and is not too complicated. But if they dont want to follow the chain they can trade firewood for anything or use debug tool to add stuff. Well that's what I think. But there will always be people who like 15 different colors of building for example and they just can never be pleased, or want diffrent trees or grass or fence and such.. :-\ We can start adding ideas for production chain and see how it goes, even thought most of things have a chain already :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 07, 2018, 01:15:07 PM
where is the code guy from last week? did i scare him away? we need a hardware suppy store that only the builder can take stuff from.then send all these items to it ike the wharehousesassign 3 workers to the hardware store who work as 3 builders who use these items to build.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 07, 2018, 01:16:46 PM
a part of the problem about your pictures posted at top is : to find good textures images.
we often see picture on the internet, but 99,999% they are unusable. they need to be took at 100% perpendicular, absolutely 0 tilt, no extra shadows, no extra reflect of light from the sun and any reflective material which would reflect sun/sky. and they need to be seamless so the top match the bottom, and the left match the right edges.

this is why we often see cool pictures... but we cannot do.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 07, 2018, 01:19:25 PM
<<< raises hand sheepishly "teacher,where do we find the 5th modder to do this? what kind of rope you got to tie him/her up with?"

don't take that wrong ,was ment as a friendly joke.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 01:43:28 PM
Of course the textures dont have to be the ones I used as an example, it can look however the modder choses. I thought if it is a plank wall then the building material shouldnt be stone or brick. A lot of buildings in game made from stone need only log to build, that makes no sence.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 07, 2018, 01:45:29 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 01:43:28 PM
A lot of building in game made from stone need only log to build, that makes no sence.

yup thats something. i personally try to take care when it is time to decide the building materials.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: kid1293 on December 07, 2018, 01:54:54 PM
Arguments for nothing. The production chain only tells the 'recipe' for the building
It is up to modders to supply their different textures.

Say you need 20 bricks. That does not say if they are red or yellow. It is still up
to the modders to decide texture for their buildings.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 01:58:04 PM
Anyways for plaster the chain can be:

Clay - clay pits, buildings in mods that add clay
Water - water tower, mods that add water 
Sand - shorehouses, beachs, mods that sand
Limestone - colected in stone mine

Clay + water + sand = plaster
Limestone + water + sand = plaster

Its not too comlicatated, water can even be removed if people want. :)

I think thats the only thing missing in all of the mods but so many modded buildings have it.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 07, 2018, 02:05:24 PM
didn't DS start on some of this? maybe not called "plaster " but cement and cut stones,etc.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 07, 2018, 02:05:36 PM
The way I see it...   if you want it real easy, you are basically asking to take away the challenge of the game anyway.  So what difference does it make if you have to use Debug instead and just build your town versus everything only requiring 10 logs and 10 stone to build?   From what I see, the majority of people around here are seasoned players and can pretty much accomplish any goal they want, even with vanilla.   So with the mods, it seems only logical to try and bring back some of the challenge and find ways to increase the challenge.   Those who prefer simple and easy, can just use Debug.   

I totally admit to randomly playing a map using Debug, nothing wrong it at all unless your competing in a challenge with others.  I enjoy a break from the game to just throw together things and play around with different ideas that I can use in a legit play through.  It helps to familiarize myself with everything there is.  I still haven't been all the way through MM and it seems like I've used tons of stuff out of it... there is just so much it's incredible.

Bottom line, I just can't see any complaints against more advanced mods since the Debug menu exists.  Debug menu allows anything you want to be built whether you have the items or not.  So install every building set you want and use them wherever you want.   Turn Debug free build on and off as necessary to get what you want.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 07, 2018, 02:18:21 PM
I like realism, to a point. But if it gets too complicated many players will lose interest.

Discrepancy, EB, and Red have started adding lumber/timber, glass, brick, tile, and maybe a few other materials. For me that's a good start. I'd like to see furniture used as a building material, especially in hospitals, churches, and the better types of houses.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:19:36 PM
The vannila version is missing the late "end game". But since there is no combat or kingdom to conqure, upgrading the building to most advanced and beautiful is the end game. For last level of house upgrades copper or bronze roofs can be added. Also gold and silver decorations on the noblemans houses and some other buildings like churches.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:24:25 PM
Furniture is not a building material, but it would be nice if candles and furniture can be used by bunnies same as firewood ofc at slower rate, or at leat brought into the homes, but not sure if that is possible
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 07, 2018, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:24:25 PM
Furniture is not a building material, but it would be nice if candles and furniture can be used by bunnies same as firewood ofc at slower rate, or at leat brought into the homes, but not sure if that is possible

but dont you think it would become too much CC ?
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 07, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Colonial Charter Journey is outstanding and I think it's a good foundation to build on for starting a united modders series.   So many of the mod requests I see around the forums are already in CC, they just aren't separate mods which I guess is why people don't want to use it?   But using that as a base and adding on compatible mods to CC seems very logical and a time saver.

With the MegaMod series, it's already obvious a lot of existing mods blend just fine with CC.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:46:18 PM
Dont know, I am not sure what things are in cc. But I guess furniture can be optional from mod to mod, and I dont think it should be used as building material as that makes no sence. If possible it should be used by people or made for trading. Or I dont know make suggestions :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
CC is amazing mod, but they made homewares because they couldnt add more than 3 building materials. But furniture is used by all people the ones that live in shack and in mansions, it would be needed for all types of homes, and that loses purpose
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 07, 2018, 03:02:38 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:46:18 PM
I guess furniture can be optional from mod to mod, and I dont think it should be used as building material as that makes no sence.

How can you build a church without all the pews, or a hospital without all the beds? What's inside the building is just as important as the walls and roof. It would be a bit silly to use furniture if we still only had 3 slots, but we can have up to 6 materials now. It adds that extra level of realism without making things too complicated, at least in my opinion.

Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:24:25 PM
it would be nice if candles and furniture can be used by bunnies same as firewood ofc at slower rate, or at leat brought into the homes, but not sure if that is possible

Yeah, that would be nice, but unfortunately it isn't possible. Red started making homewares as a type of luxury that gives happiness. I like that idea. The problem is alcohol/luxuries happiness doesn't really have much impact on the game.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 07, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
But furniture is used by all people the ones that live in shack and in mansions, it would be needed for all types of homes, and that loses purpose

The best compromise would be to use furniture in high quality/advanced homes only. It could still be required for hospitals and churches though, if modders wanted to go in that direction. Red added a furniture maker recently so we'll see what he does with it.  :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 07, 2018, 03:09:00 PM
problem is the game doesn't allow us to use the extra items except for trading. bannies use food ,herbs,tools,clothing,and firewood. the luxury side doesn't function well. bannies are known to drink all the ale super fast.since we don't have a slot to use furniture under or silverware,CC added them as building material.i have tried to come up with a way to implement these extrea items.none make sence or are impracticle.
        there are too many "ifs" to use such items. if we had TOM's happiness code and fine tuned it and if we could crack the luury code to have more control of how much the banies use up,then we could do more of this or that.

       someday they will take all these ideas and make a better game.there are some in development stages.when they come out with the improved game,will everyone leave me? :'( i am afraid it will get too quiet here then.the friendship level of this forum would be missed.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Gatherer on December 07, 2018, 03:12:44 PM
Are we're experiencing another wave of thought that everything should be compatible with CC/MM? :-\  Perhaps next versions of those two should be made explicitly compatible as an add-ons to RKEC or The North mod. :P

Yes, I'm one of those players who will not use mods with different types of planks, cut stones, paint, plaster, furniture,... If this idea goes forward I guess I'll just have to stick to older versions of my favourite mods.

To each their own. ;)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 07, 2018, 03:16:29 PM
i personally prefer take RKEC as basis than CC ^^
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
Well maybe there will be a new update to the game one day, or modders will get access to more things. But for now maybe agree on most common building materials and make mods compatible as much as possible. Everyone agreed on windmills and bakeries :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 07, 2018, 03:34:54 PM
we totally know people wont use 1 single mod. yes there are the CC players, and the MM players that only swear by those....

and there are us! we totally know there are people who use many mods, they would like that everything imbricate together. we know it.
and there is also : what we want to do :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 03:40:59 PM
Why are we people playing games so much and obsessing over them go play with the bunnies outside.  :P It's late. Good night everyone sleep well.. :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Gatherer on December 07, 2018, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 07, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
But for now maybe agree on most common building materials and make mods compatible as much as possible.


We already agreed on those long ago. Stone, logs, lumber, bricks, roof tiles, glass, iron and thatch.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 07, 2018, 04:14:59 PM
I would have to ask once again....   why would anyone not like CC when the exact mods they want are in there?   I'm a bit confused on that.   Is it hate just for the sake of hating it?    I wasn't around for all the CC and MM bashing I guess.

MM has already achieved a cohesive update using CC, RK, EB, DS... Kid... and others.  So it's every bit possible to keep that going since it's already well established.   Why start from scratch?
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 08, 2018, 12:46:08 AM
I just wish that there is balance when it comes to building material. If you look at a house and it has glass windows than that should be one of building materials required. There are too many houses that look so advanced but only need stone and log to build. I suggested a sytem here to make things realistic and balanced. By looking at the buildings roof, wall and windows building materials can be determend. I love cc it is really good mod, but it can be still be improved and more compatible with other mods :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 08, 2018, 01:36:56 AM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 08, 2018, 12:46:08 AM
If you look at a house and it has glass windows than that should be one of building materials required. There are too many houses that look so advanced but only need stone and log to build. I love cc it is really good mod, but it can be still be improved and more compatible with other mods :)

I totally agree with you there. CC isn't perfect, but it's not bad. Red mentioned that there might be an update to CC sometime in the new year. Now that we have 6 materials instead of just 3 they might take a look at improving that part of their mod.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 08, 2018, 02:36:57 AM
I like this illustrated list of building materials. Also any discussion on this topic. It's a source of inspiration for modders. Unification should not be the goal in my opinion. Our mods are as different as player's preferences, and that's a good thing. It was always tried to establish CC as the unified system and it failed for good reasons but was toxic for the modding community. It also leads to phrases like if you don't like the complex system, just use debug. That's not an answer on the reasonable arguments for simple solutions in this simple game. It's already a thing with generic wood vs. logs and lumber/timber/planks. Both ideas have their points. Same with reeds/thatch, nice to experiment with this material but makes also sense to keep it as a free resource for F variants and to not mess with unsatisfying reeds seeding workarounds. What caught my interest is the last picture. It can be a very nice tavern or something else for banished people. I get the wish to make it, probably also to escape from Blender right now and I should resist.^^

Edit found it.. the Bishop's house in Sheffield from Tudor period. A really nice one.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
I will try and put my statement about using debug in to better context, Tom.

The division I see happening is between people wanting mods to have more building requirements and those who don't. 

The ones who see it as a problem obviously don't want to install mods that will produce those requirements, but they still want to use the building itself.   Without an additional mod, adding glass to the game, they won't be able to build anything that requires glass since they can't make it and the traders won't bring it.   I get it... 

Some people don't like the complexity, I get it.  But why?   Let's face it, the game is already beyond easy so how many levels of easier are there between it's current state and debug?    At some point, the player has to admit to themselves that they should just use Debug.   Perfect example is growing rocks and iron like trees..  really?  Before debug, some of these had a place, but after debug, it's a whole new outlook.   If you need something to make the game easier, well... DEBUG!   The solution now exists, it's already available, use it.    Why continue being redundant?

By making things more complex, you aren't leaving anyone behind.  Debug isn't going anywhere and everyone still has access to all the same buildings.   Making things less complex, you are indeed leaving everyone else behind who wants the complexity.  You can't use Debug to create complexity, so complexity gets left behind.

Does this not make sense?   Complex way, everyone wins, the easy way only the easy way wins.   I vote that everyone wins.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 08, 2018, 01:23:01 PM
@Tom Sawyer I agree that mod variety for different player's preferences is a good thing  :) and here at WOB we have a wonderful selection of mods to suit everyone.  It is wonderful we are given so many choices and of course if players do not like the simpler basic mods they don't have to use them, since they are using debug on the more complex mods.  It is nice to play simpler when life is complex and play more complex when time permits.  The choices are also wonderful for players with less powerful systems so they too find new mods here that they can use and enjoy.  Everyone benefits.

New additions to the North look fantastic.  :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 01:34:06 PM
~~"if players do not like the simpler basic mods they don't have to use them, since they are using debug on the more complex mods."~~

This makes absolutely no sense at all.     Why would somebody not use a house just because it didn't require more complex stuff to build?   Sorry, but that's silly.   Maybe they don't like the style of house, that's one thing, but just because it's too simple to build?  Nonsense!   The motive in your comment is quite obvious though.

I don't believe any complex mods require extra PC power either.  The PC issues really only occur due to population issues and pathing.   Even with a powerful PC it can take a bit to load with lots of mods installed and that's more to do with the quantity of mods, not the complexity of what it takes to build something in the game.

If you have 10 mods for different houses that require logs and stone to build, it's the same load time for 10 mods of different houses that need stone, lumber, glass, building supplies and furnishings.   
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 08, 2018, 02:04:07 PM
I got what you mean with debug @theonlywanderer but I don't think it would be a solution. It's not just about placing a building for free if someone doesn't like the mats. Players who don't want the maximum set of resources may prefer a focused setting where every material has a meaningful function and balanced values, where production limits are working well, inventories are not flooded with items and where overview window and townhall statistics are not confused. Those players like the game clear and consistent, maybe also challenging. They don't want to grow stones like trees and also not to debug. Especially not to debug because it breaks all the consistency and challenge they were looking for. Performance on weaker systems can be another reason as Abandoned says.

That's probably not the majority of players but if you want all people winning then don't try to unify mods or to prescribe a set of resources. Better if modders can follow different concepts and players can chose what they prefer. I wrote it also because we had similar talks and it only leads to disputes about the right religion and with upset people in the end. As you already can see here. :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 02:32:50 PM
Why would anyone have to ditch their personal mods?     This is what I don't understand.

Can't a unified series exist alongside their separate goals?   I realize there is only so much a modder can do, as someone clearly stated, they aren't robots.   But there isn't any reason several directions can't coexist.

Since the models are separate from the programming, It seems obvious they can have variations in programming.

One variation can stick to vanilla level items to build and will function within any game.  This seems to be the easier route, programming wise, since only existing code needs to be used and only have to change some in code filenames, right?  Compile this and send it off as a vanilla level mod.

The other variation can be part of a unified version, which just takes the already existent model and revamps the programming to be part of a more unified experience that includes more complex product chains.   Once the unified programming code is setup, it should once again be a matter of changing some filenames in the code.    Compile this and send it off as the unified mod.

And no.. I'm not even trying to make light of what is involved in modeling and programming.  Just trying to communicate without writing a book for a comment.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 08, 2018, 02:33:34 PM
oh my gosh, how silly of me.  :D  Lets make all those simple houses more complex so some people won't want to use them.  Better yet, lets force everyone to cheat using debug.  What nonsense.  ;D
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 02:39:47 PM
Sorry abandoned, but once you add even a single mod that changes anything but appearance... you are already cheating.   Am I really to believe you have never used a single mod that changes anything else?    Sorry, but I don't believe it.   Am I now going to hear how there are different levels of cheating that are somehow are more acceptable and more honorable?  As long as you don't do this or that..... 

Am I also to believe that most people, who go looking for mods, only want to change the appearance and keep the vanilla game intact because it's so unbelievably exciting and challenging?   It's so great, that they had to go looking for mods.....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, that was easy to find....   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mods enabled and load order:

Starting and Map Changing Mods: Call of Nature Soundtrack, Banished UI Maps, Banished UI Town Names, Labor Window, RK Minimized Status, RK Vanilla TP, CC Light Rain, Climate-No Snow,  New Maps, Palm Tree Start

Tweak Mods:  Better Fields, Bigger Wheelbarrows, Busy Laborers, Fishing Dock 25%, Hunting & Gathering, Hunting Season, Increased CC, Longer Living Orchards, 1:1 Alternative,  Rock Respawn, Tiny Smoke, Woodcutter +3

Major or Must Have Mods: An Empty Square, Nomad Sign Complete, DS Jetty & Bridges v1, Kid More Houses Vanilla, Kid Old Town, Kid Old Town Ports & Pirates, Kid Tiny, Kid Wood Fort, NMT 3.1Series Canal Set

Supporting Mods:   Coal Furnace, Kid Granny's Park, Kid House Boat, Kid In Transit, Kid Storage Carts, Kid Yard Cover, Old Hunter Hut, RK Carts, RK Pigs as Livestock, Sample White Chicken, Smuggler Cave, Storage Crates
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 08, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 08, 2018, 02:11:08 PM
And i like to play very big maps, and make different "areas" City, little towns with forest between, country side. And when the bannies go work to other side on the map, the start to die on starving in the way. So i like to use debug, because i cant make my "utopia" without it. For me this game is more relax and city building. I would like to try make my "utopia" without debug, but its not possible.

This is a great example of different mods suiting different play styles. You could also argue that in this case using debug is adding MORE realism to the game. in real life the average person can walk a few kilometres (and back again) without starving to death.

Mods should make the game more fun. The problem is each of us has a different idea of exactly what 'more fun' means.

Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 08, 2018, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
The division I see happening is between people wanting mods to have more building requirements and those who don't. 

It's not just building materials, it's more vs less of everything: building materials, food items, 'useless' products that can only be used for trade. The only things that nobody seems to complain about are free-build deco items.

Quote
Some people don't like the complexity, I get it.  But why?

As best as I can tell they don't like things being added to their town hall and trader menus. I do agree that it would be nice if we could delete unwanted items from those menus. Say you imported something one time for a special purpose and you are never going to import it or use it again. It would be nice if we could remove that item from menus but unfortunately we can't.

Some of them also want to play on small maps where you just don't have room for a glassworks and whatnot. OK, not everyone has a super fast computer (I certainly don't). But to me, needing or wanting to only play small maps isn't a valid reason for insisting that no extra complexity should be added to the game. Same goes for the players who want to build massive cities and aim for as high as population as possible. For them, things like glassworks are a waste of space. We all use the mods we like and skip the ones we don't. Nothing is going to please everyone and every play style.

And lastly there is the purity argument, which is a new one. Mods should be simple because vanilla is/was simple. It's a matter of opinion so there is no point in arguing over it. If someone only wants to make reskins of vanilla buildings then that's fine. It's still new content for which I am very grateful and if I like it I'll add it to my game.  :)

These less vs more discussions keep popping up. The modders can read them and decide for themselves how they want to make their mods. Red, DS, and EB have been gradually adding things like lumber, glass, and bricks to buildings. I'm fine with that. Kid is very firmly in the logs and stone camp. I'm fine with that too. If he makes something I like I'll add it to my game.



Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 08, 2018, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 02:32:50 PM
... there isn't any reason several directions can't coexist.

Now we are on the same track. That's the only thing I expect, coexistence of several directions. But the religious war continues, I'm out at this point. ;)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
Well, everyone can call me an ass, but I don't see a need for all styles of play to be catered too.   That type of thing really snuffs out creativity, improvement, and expansion.   It pigeon holes everything to the lowest denominator.

The lowest denominator is the vanilla version of the game.  Why are people in mod forums?  There are less forums now, but why were there so many forums dedicated to modding this game if everyone was thrilled with vanilla?   Because vanilla sucks and everyone knows it does.   Once you figure it out, it's a snooze fest.   People can claim otherwise, but when they continue to use mods, well... there ya go!  So, again I ask.. why would anyone be in here if Vanilla was so awesome?  Go uninstall all the mods you use and play Vanilla.  Nobody will stop you, promise!

So... that leaves one type of person....  those who enjoy mods!   Why do they enjoy mods?  Just so they can play the vanilla game with different appearance?  I seriously doubt it.   The mechanics of Vanilla banished are every bit just as responsible for what makes it boring, the same thing over and over and over.

So... what does that leave?  People who want some type of improvement with the mods.  But what type of improvement?   Different appearance isn't enough, the game mechanics will still suck if using Vanilla game mechanics, what would be the point?   The point would come down to just wanting to build a neat city.  Great, so use debug and build away!    Build whatever you want.

But having debug is not enough, why?   The vanilla game is not a challenge, it's boring, that's why people are here looking for more, looking for something better.     What is better... what is improvement... we're still asking this question for some reason.

The reason these questions won't go away is because there is too much catering to the vanilla game.  Again, go play vanilla if that's what you want.   But the reason you go looking for mods is for something better.   Better doesn't exist if you change nothing.   How is the game better by having more houses if the same boring base vanilla game mechanics is being used?    Oh boy... I can place a new house the same way I could the vanilla house... how exciting.  I find this hard to believe that is what majority users are looking for out of mods.

I get all the story telling also, I do... it's different and can be interesting if that's what you like.  But let's face it, that is way out there for asking modders to focus on this style of game play.  Especially when debug is available and can just build to your hearts content and tell whatever grand story you want.

No... majority of mod seekers are looking for something better... something to improve the game and make it last longer, make it re-playable and bring back the challenge or even increase the challenge.   Those who enjoy making things easier already have the solution... DEBUG!!    Don't like cheating... KNOCK KNOCK... they are already cheating as soon as they mod the game.  Appearance mods typically get a pass on that.   But in the case of banished, appearance mods aren't enough to make a difference.   The vanilla game is simply too limited.   Yep, I'm an ass for saying the obvious.

Bottom line... not all styles should be catered too.  A lot of styles can simply be done by using Debug and be done with it.  No need to fool themselves in to thinking they are playing a legit round of banished after installing 50 different mods, but woah... DEBUG... that's just going too far!!

Anyway...  don't mind me... I am seriously considering letting this forum get back to their agenda's and not letting the door hit me in the ass when I leave.   I will think about it.    Not interested in disrupting the flow around here.  It's clearly all been said before.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Gatherer on December 08, 2018, 05:37:37 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
Well, everyone can call me an ass

No one is calling you an ass.

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
I don't see a need for all styles of play to be catered too. That type of thing really snuffs out creativity, improvement, and expansion. It pigeon holes everything to the lowest denominator.

Touche!
:) 

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
The lowest denominator is the vanilla version of the game.  Why are people in mod forums?  There are less forums now, but why were there so many forums dedicated to modding this game if everyone was thrilled with vanilla?   Because vanilla sucks and everyone knows it does.   Once you figure it out, it's a snooze fest.   People can claim otherwise, but when they continue to use mods, well... there ya go!  So, again I ask.. why would anyone be in here if Vanilla was so awesome?  Go uninstall all the mods you use and play Vanilla.  Nobody will stop you, promise!

TThat's the same as me telling you to go learn to mod and create upgradeable buildings with advanced materials. Nobody will stop you, promise! We need more modders.

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
So... that leaves one type of person....  those who enjoy mods!   Why do they enjoy mods?  Just so they can play the vanilla game with different appearance?  I seriously doubt it.   The mechanics of Vanilla banished are every bit just as responsible for what makes it boring, the same thing over and over and over.

There are some of us who like to play that way. Trying to build a working settlement, town, big city using different looking houses without the hassle of overly advanced materials. I'm not against using debug and I don't see it as cheating. I just don't use it personally.

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
So... what does that leave?  People who want some type of improvement with the mods.  But what type of improvement?   Different appearance isn't enough, the game mechanics will still suck if using Vanilla game mechanics, what would be the point?   The point would come down to just wanting to build a neat city.  Great, so use debug and build away!    Build whatever you want.

But having debug is not enough, why?   The vanilla game is not a challenge, it's boring, that's why people are here looking for more, looking for something better.     What is better... what is improvement... we're still asking this question for some reason.

What happens after the fifth or sixth upgrade of a house with those advanced materials? Will Kid, RK, EB and other modders be pestered for a seventh and eight upgrade then?

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
Bottom line... not all styles should be catered too.

Meaning our styles of simple leisured play should not be catered. :(

Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
Anyway...  don't mind me... I am seriously considering letting this forum get back to their agenda's and not letting the door hit me in the ass when I leave.   I will think about it.    Not interested in disrupting the flow around here.  It's clearly all been said before.

There is no need to be dramatic. We like different ideas on this forum. We just don't think they should all be catered to. See what I did there? ;)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 08, 2018, 05:39:14 PM
All ideas and opinions should be welcome. Modders like ideas and feedback, and it is them that keeps this game alive and interesting. Please help by continuing to share.

We all have to agree to disagree on some things. Lots of different play styles, no one correct way to play the game. But I do agree that vanilla is simply boring.   ;)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Gatherer on December 08, 2018, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: elemental on December 08, 2018, 05:39:14 PM
But I do agree that vanilla is simply boring.   ;)


It is. I consider it a starter kit that gives new players thirst for the modded stuff.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 08, 2018, 05:50:41 PM
Quote from: Gatherer on December 08, 2018, 05:37:37 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
Bottom line... not all styles should be catered too.

Meaning our styles of simple leisured play should not be catered. :(


I think a better way of putting it is that not every mod should try and cater to every player every time. It just isn't possible. Nor should every player expect every mod to be just right for them. Discrepancy leans towards more complexity and realism in some of his mods, especially his more recent mods. But that doesn't mean he can't do a set of simple houses too.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 06:08:53 PM
~~"That's the same as me telling you to go learn to mod"~~

No, it isn't even remotely the same in any way shape or form!   Not everyone is capable, or has the time to take up modding.

However, even if somebody creates the most complex mod the game allows, a player can still NOT INSTALL IT and can still remain playing the vanilla game.  Other players CAN install it, and either make the required materials or use the debug menu.  Basically, anyone can go backwards, but you can't go forward if no forward exists.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 06:12:27 PM
~~"What happens after the fifth or sixth upgrade of a house with those advanced materials"~~

I don't know what the game is capable of, but isn't that the point of mods, to find out?   Will they be pestered for more and more?   Aren't they already being pestered?   Why does the reason for being pestered matter?   What difference does it make if somebody is asking for a new watermill versus asking for a seventh house level, if it's even possible.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 06:22:24 PM
~~"Meaning our styles of simple leisured play should not be catered"~~

It already has been catered too... it's called DEBUG!   Your personal choice to not use it should not be a factor to stop the progression of mods for the game.

Even the vanilla game isn't a "leisure" type of game play unless you have the speed way down which makes it agonizing at best, hence the ability to speed up to 10x.   10x wouldn't exist for any other reason then the obvious!  Many of the mods out there that add lumber mills, water mills, more products, actually enhance leisure play, unless leisure play has be redefined and I didn't get the memo?   Wouldn't leisure play mean just kind of goofing around enjoying the building and not worrying about everything being managed perfectly?     That fits quite well with having more buildings and more options to fill out a town.   How is that a bad thing for leisure play?
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 08, 2018, 06:22:43 PM
house materials needed: lumber,2 types,8 sizes each,plywood 2 thicknesses,osb board,windows varrying sizes,doors,insulation 2 types,wiring 3 types,pipes, toilet,sinks,tubs,shower,cupboards,bolts,screws,nails 10 sizes,bricks,concrete blocks,chimney liner,slate,ceramic tiles,..........
wait too many for the limits.
<<<<calls LUKE got hung up on and laughed at,called me names


bannies"watch this" grabs a stone tool and builds the house.uses same tool to dig outhouse and a grave. then grabs musket and loads cannons.  "tell us we can't do it, i dare ya." we'll call RED invent steam engines and then CC to get ropes."do you prefer to be shot,shot out of a canon.or tied to the tracks and wait for the train?"

tune in next week as archeologists discover monkeys built the pyramids."humans couldn't get along long enough to accomplish such a feat."

PS there is a harder, more accurate game. it is called life, note everyone fails at it. they die trying to win.  ::)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 08, 2018, 06:37:23 PM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Abandoned on December 08, 2018, 06:48:31 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 02:39:47 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, that was easy to find....   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mods enabled and load order:

Starting and Map Changing Mods: Call of Nature Soundtrack, Banished UI Maps, Banished UI Town Names, Labor Window, RK Minimized Status, RK Vanilla TP, CC Light Rain, Climate-No Snow,  New Maps, Palm Tree Start

Tweak Mods:  Better Fields, Bigger Wheelbarrows, Busy Laborers, Fishing Dock 25%, Hunting & Gathering, Hunting Season, Increased CC, Longer Living Orchards, 1:1 Alternative,  Rock Respawn, Tiny Smoke, Woodcutter +3

Major or Must Have Mods: An Empty Square, Nomad Sign Complete, DS Jetty & Bridges v1, Kid More Houses Vanilla, Kid Old Town, Kid Old Town Ports & Pirates, Kid Tiny, Kid Wood Fort, NMT 3.1Series Canal Set

Supporting Mods:   Coal Furnace, Kid Granny's Park, Kid House Boat, Kid In Transit, Kid Storage Carts, Kid Yard Cover, Old Hunter Hut, RK Carts, RK Pigs as Livestock, Sample White Chicken, Smuggler Cave, Storage Crates


Great group of mods, thanks modders.   :)  They worked well together and I enjoyed them a great deal.  It was a fun map and story to do.  Easy to find here:

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=2622.0
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 08, 2018, 06:50:36 PM
Glad  ;) you see the humor  :D in it, Abandoned  :P... I sure did   ;D ;D ;D ;D

:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 09, 2018, 12:55:10 AM
Nice list, I vote for osb-boards and toilets.^^ Don't like it? Just use debug or go vanilla.. no?

We call that eat or die, right now I learned My way or the Highway. I like it, added to my american phrase collection. ;D
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 09, 2018, 01:01:54 AM
Hahaha but I have more suggestions for food chains and systems for balancing the numbers :p hopefully the modders can get inspired by them at least. I  am sure one day there will be a game that adds what banished is missing. I have my eye on the game Ancient Cities. There is also a fun game called one hour one life about building a civilazation but its online. :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 09, 2018, 02:17:13 AM
We would like to see your thoughts about food chains and balancing. Always nice to get inspired. There is some potential for commotion as well but this board can survive that. Maybe in a new thread to not confuse building materials.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 09, 2018, 11:36:14 AM
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 09, 2018, 12:55:10 AM
I learned My way or the Highway. I like it, added to my american phrase collection. ;D

You actually learned that a long time ago when you blocked debug from working with The North 6.

Seems "my way or the highway" is acceptable when it's your way, huh?

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 09, 2018, 12:55:10 AM
Debug options please not in this mod. It destroys so much of the game
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 09, 2018, 12:10:18 PM
Haha that's well countered. But it's only in this mod which is focused on survival and where the challenge is more real if debug is no option. I would not expect it as a unified standard thing for all mods. To use that wording, it's just one of several coexisting directions. A mod with as much as complexity and many items as possible including debug tools for free scenery design like Mega Mod is also fine and another direction. As long as it respects the opposite.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: angainor88 on December 10, 2018, 07:19:30 AM
Well, I like both some complexity (lumber, glass, etc.) but also I like playing vanilla+ (I just like having a lot of different, pretty houses). But as a modder, I would have to release two versions of every mod, one for vanilla players, and one for unified building materials. I also don't have plans (right now)  to add any buildings that make the advanced building materials, so people would have to download someone else' mod that adds those.

I think all styles of play are fine, but I'm probably not going to be making a unified mod like Red's *shrugs*
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 10, 2018, 08:33:26 AM
how long do we want the inventory?? note 2 comp screens long of 6 TH's each.142 mods. adding just the CC J woud mean another full screen at least. hats off to the modders as i proudly state there are ony 2 blank tags. without KID's many TH's could i even do this at all??

Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 10, 2018, 01:35:27 PM
Quote from: brads3 on December 10, 2018, 08:33:26 AM
how long do we want the inventory?? note 2 comp screens long of 6 TH's each.142 mods. adding just the CC J woud mean another full screen at least.

However long it ends up being is my answer.

How often do you have every single item active in your game? They only show up in your town hall list if you import them or make them. So in how many of your games is the size of the town hall list a genuine concern?

Apart from the fact that you will rarely if ever have the full list of items showing in that menu, it's an alphabetical list. It really isn't very difficult to find something in it when you want to check stock levels.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 10, 2018, 01:46:05 PM
Quote from: angainor88 on December 10, 2018, 07:19:30 AM
Well, I like both some complexity (lumber, glass, etc.) but also I like playing vanilla+ (I just like having a lot of different, pretty houses). But as a modder, I would have to release two versions of every mod, one for vanilla players, and one for unified building materials. I also don't have plans (right now)  to add any buildings that make the advanced building materials, so people would have to download someone else' mod that adds those.

I think all styles of play are fine, but I'm probably not going to be making a unified mod like Red's *shrugs*

You only have to make two versions of your mod if you want to make two versions of it. It's your mod, you decide how you want it to be.  :)

Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 11, 2018, 03:53:47 AM
Sorry that the thread has wandered off @KIM16. I just voted for taking it as inspiration and not for unified rules or standards. As I said I like this list and back to the topic, we could add the following realistic materials I came across in my current work in progress and where it is to decide if and how to add it as a managed resource. I would like it to be discussed like all others too.

Turf or Peat to build turf houses and sod roofs:

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-turf-s.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-turf.jpg)

Tar for wooden constructions and shipbuilding:

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-tar-s.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-tar.jpg)

Copper or Copper Sheets for roofs of special buildings:

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-copper-s.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-copper.jpg)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
ok,but how specific do we want to break it down to? or would a generic term fit and work better? for turf we have thatch or grass. we also do use copper just not specifically roof sheets.CC uses tin and pipes also. where we use logs now can become specific to lumber then sizes,treated or not,plywood,doors,etc.general terms might work better.

    remember too that for each item a modder creates,they have to make a chain of buildings to make that item and then a city worth of buildings that needs that item for building.to create plaster might be just 1 or 2 buildings to process it.but now you need a city set of buildings that require that material. it would become a huge project.

      in CC, a player places abuilding and reaizes they need several different materials to buid it.some of the chains to produce the materials is 5 buildings long plus miners and storage.some of the production buidings require different materials to build them. then after you have enough materials to build the buiding you wanted,you have excess materials.plus all these workers need to have houses and supplies.players who don't play CC often can be overwhelmed.a player who picks the game up to play for an hour quickly realizes that 1 house might take him a week of playing and working just to see a finsihed building.

             not saying it is right or wrong. think many of the arguements  come from forcing everyone and all modders to change. there should be room here for both sides. no need to force ideas onto anyone.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 11, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
1 house might take him a week of playing and working just to see a finished building.

Please tell me you are exaggerating here? 
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 11, 2018, 10:42:22 AM
Yes, it's a main question how specific it should be and not always easy to answer. In the end, every author has to make a decision for his mod. What I also came across are wooden shingles. In a description of a model I'm working on it's written that it was built of 160 oak trunks and 5000 hand crafted shingles. Could be exciting for big achievement buildings like the pagan temple instead of just dumping endless logs at the building site. I remember, Necora already wrote it somewhere and related to clay tiles it would be consistent to make also wooden shingles. At least interesting for modders who don't stay with generic wood anymore. Question is where to produce it? In sawmills or by a woodcarver?

Shingles made from wood and as roofing for old buildings

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-shingles-s.jpg) (http://www.banishedventures.com/images/material-shingles.jpg)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 11, 2018, 12:10:11 PM
I was thinking that wood tiles can be made in the lumber mill (timber mill) , stone tiles would be collected by stone cutters in stone mines as an option instead of stone (quarrys) and brick tiles would be made by brickworks. That way the modders don't have to make more buildings since most already have these. And players wouldn't be lost by having too many buildings to manage. :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 11, 2018, 12:27:34 PM
Something along those lines can be added for complexity but ofc its just an idea

baskets to upgrade gatherer and herbalist
bows and arrows to upgrade hunter
barrels to build a tavern or upgrade it
crates to upgrade storage buildings
candles to build advanced churches
leather to build windmill, cloth to upgrade windmill and hospital
ship to build advanced bigger trader
benches to upgrade school
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 11, 2018, 12:29:32 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 11, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
1 house might take him a week of playing and working just to see a finished building.

Please tell me you are exaggerating here?

all depends of the details. an house can maybe go up to maybe 8-16 hrs of work... (which is 1 to 2 days of work depending how you can squeeze those hours in most few days)

but when you do more specialized building, it can take alot more time, up to a week easily. you can build a box, and put a roof on top of it and pretend this is "this" or this is "that" but ... without details, it can be anything, or , everything you want. just need to pretend.

last building i made, the armor maker building took me 3 days easily.


thats something about people dont know or they have hard to figure out when they ask for more. they think they can get everything with 1 or 2 hours of work from a modder. thats a lot more than that. it can be range from 2-3 days to a week. and whoever the modder, they have lives!
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: KIM16 on December 11, 2018, 12:46:20 PM
The developer build this game kinda quickly considering he was alone. I wonder how hard is it to build a game like this. :D I will try to learn 3ds max and see if I can make something. I always enjoyed creating architectural designs. What is harder to make a model or to code it into a game? :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 11, 2018, 01:02:46 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 11, 2018, 12:46:20 PM
The developer build this game kinda quickly considering he was alone. I wonder how hard is it to build a game like this. :D I will try to learn 3ds max and see if I can make something. I always enjoyed creating architectural designs. What is harder to make a model or to code it into a game? :)

without experience, both can be hard. with experience, both are easy. details takes long though. there is a photoshop part too to add. you need textures, you need icons.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 11, 2018, 01:20:40 PM
Quote from: RedKetchup on December 11, 2018, 12:29:32 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 11, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
1 house might take him a week of playing and working just to see a finished building.

Please tell me you are exaggerating here?

all depends of the details. an house can maybe go up to maybe 8-16 hrs of work... (which is 1 to 2 days of work depending how you can squeeze those hours in most few days)

Brad was talking about the time in-game to build a house.

I realise that making mods takes time and I'm always amazed at how quickly you and the other modders come up with new content. Thanks once again for all your efforts.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 11, 2018, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
remember too that for each item a modder creates,they have to make a chain of buildings to make that item and then a city worth of buildings that needs that item for building.to create plaster might be just 1 or 2 buildings to process it.but now you need a city set of buildings that require that material. it would become a huge project.

It doesn't have to be that complicated. Yes, I would guess that some things would require a new chain. But some things could be made at an existing building, like a blacksmith or lumber mill. Importing is always an option too, if you don't think a production chain is worth the effort.

Quote
not saying it is right or wrong. think many of the arguements  come from forcing everyone and all modders to change. there should be room here for both sides. no need to force ideas onto anyone.

Yes, a very small number of people here are going to permanently change the Banished modding constitution and force all modders to use all 6 material slots on each building. Penalty for non-compliance will be... banishment. They will be forced to go and mod for Simcity 2013 for the rest of their lives. :D

Seriously though... Nobody is (or could) force any modder to change his or her ways. Ideas are discussed and suggestions are made. If modders like an idea they might use it in their mods. It really is that simple.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: RedKetchup on December 11, 2018, 02:21:05 PM
yup us too (modders) we count. and we can have our own idea. the best though, it is the discussion. everyone are evolving despending the contacts he has with exterior and the discussions he is participing :)
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: theonlywanderer on December 11, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 06:38:30 AM
1 house might take him a week of playing and working just to see a finished building.

Please tell me you are exaggerating here? 


this depends how much time you play each daysomeone that ony has an hour a day,it could take that long.you set the building, then realize all the different materials. if that house includes "building supplies" then that needs to be supplied via more production 2 chains.that can mean you need pipes,an ore mine and foundry,etc.plus housewares which is higher grade furniture.
     now i wasn't talking an experienced player who would have built the various chains before placing that house.but someone who hasn't played it could very well place the house and then notice all that.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: KIM16 on December 11, 2018, 12:10:11 PM
I was thinking that wood tiles can be made in the lumber mill (timber mill) , stone tiles would be collected by stone cutters in stone mines as an option instead of stone (quarrys) and brick tiles would be made by brickworks. That way the modders don't have to make more buildings since most already have these. And players wouldn't be lost by having too many buildings to manage. :)

i don't think this would work. it is a good idea to use existing buildings however they already are designed and coded to produces lumber and firewood.the mod would have to be recoded to produce a new item.this can affect work time as well.there hve been discussions on the balancing betwen lumber out put and firewood due to both items using the same code for work times.adding a 3rd item would mean recoding and then tryng to rebalance the outputs.

      coding takes modders a lot of time,each line has to be wrote the right way in several parts of the mod just to add a slight change. 
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 11, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
KIM,many of the items you list have been done or tried at least.i think TOM experimented with baskets and DS has has more options alsohe even has wagons that need wheels.not sure it was finished but i do rememeber him talking of a cement or plaster type material.candles are used to dig mines deeper.EB started to use pottery recently adding it to the apothecary.NECORA has the dory fishermen that need tools,traps,or nets. 
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 11, 2018, 04:41:27 PM
I did not make baskets, Brad. They are for free in my mod. Discrepancy added them as a requirement for gatherers. He also made hunting and fishing gear which is close to Kims idea of bow and arrow. Barrels for taverns or breweries is also interesting since there was even a specialized profession for crafting them. CC has barrels already if I remember right.

Shingles from sawmills is probably the best option and not a big deal to add it to the code. Why not if a modder would want to add this material.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Discrepancy on December 11, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
This is all very interesting ;)

I'm taking note.

But some of this has already been said or suggested before... discussions go around in circles just like history.
And history has shown we all end up back at the resource limits.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: Maldrick on December 12, 2018, 05:14:47 AM
Quote from: Discrepancy on December 11, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
And history has shown we all end up back at the resource limits.

Bingo.

Been lurking this thread since it started and haven't commented because this is really what it comes down to and I've been really busy working on a mod.  What can be modded and how, in the big picture, always goes back to the limits situation.

Thus far, the "standard" modded limits have been centered around what works with CC.  And it makes logical sense, in the big picture.  I would hazard a guess that more people would rather have more flexibility with what mods they run together.  Problem is, if you run fewer more specific mods, it creates a weird situation where there are simultaneously completely unused flags and not enough flags.  And how much of a problem this is largely depends on playstyle and what you are trying to do.

Personally, I don't have a set playstyle or set things I like to play with.  It depends on what day you catch me and what I'm currently into doing.  Mostly, it's no problem at all.  At times, it's insanely frustrating.  I've sat down with pen and paper and theoretically reworked the limits with different goals in mind probably a dozen times.  There are interesting things that can be done, but there has to be a focus because there aren't enough to do everything with everything.  Where that focus goes would heavily impact where modding for that set of limits goes.

Luke threw us a big bone with the 10 expanded limits.  But they came at a time where modding had already surpassed that. 20 or 30 would have been exponentially better.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 12, 2018, 06:53:19 AM
MALDRICK "....more people would rather have more flexibility....."

to me that is the key. it is more about the style of the buildings than what materials are needed.i could build a more advanced building ,would just take more planning or time.each of us have our own style of what we like, somewhat dependant on where we come from.depending on what we are doing from map to map,not all buidings fit.i know i always find myself searching thru my mods for something a little different than what i have.even with over 145 mods.

       i can remember playing CC and the start gave me an odd grain,not all windmills would use it to make flour.might have been sorghum. i set a mill and after it was built that mill wouldn't work.so there was resources and time gone.seems like i built another mill with similar problem.the mill i needed required a material that i was no way ready to produce. the easy cheap buildings do have their place and are needed.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: theonlywanderer on December 12, 2018, 10:45:09 AM
Brad, you keep hinting on the idea of new players having problems not fully understanding things and messing up.

I have to ask, what's the problem with that?   

Banished is not real life and isn't going to start a thermonuclear war if something is placed wrong.  So what, a few resources were wasted trying to figure something out.   I consider myself a pretty advanced player with MM8.01, yet I still stumble around trying to remember all the different buildings and what they do.   That's part of the fun of the game, discovering new things, making mistakes, learning with each new map.

It's not a bad thing that new players struggle, it's fully expected with a game like Banished.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: brads3 on December 12, 2018, 10:51:16 AM
true but we don't want them too overwhelmed so they stop playing.more players the better. they bring new ideas and also the potential for more modders. i think there is room for both advanced and basic building mods.
Title: Re: How to Decide what The Buildings are Made Out Of (Realistic)
Post by: elemental on December 12, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
The problem you describe with sorghum and the mill could be avoided if modders put a bit more info in the building description that we see before we build. For example, " This mill processes wheat, corn, barley, and oats". This is something that has been improving, but there are some mods that say almost nothing about what the building does.

I agree that a situation like this is not a huge problem. We've probably all done something similar without too much drama. Actually I would say having a bit of a challenge and a learning curve is better than everything being too easy and no challenge at all. If there is no challenge and no learning involved - nothing to discover - people will get bored.