World of Banished

Conversations => General Discussion => Topic started by: irrelevant on June 23, 2014, 07:46:31 AM

Title: Using Wheat to make Ale - DON'T DO IT!
Post by: irrelevant on June 23, 2014, 07:46:31 AM
Ok, we all know that using wheat to make ale is dumb.

Except, it isn't always.

I spend a great deal of my time (micromanagement in trading for fruit at 9 TPs) and storage space (for tens of thousands of imported fruit each year) making ale from fruit at 17 breweries.

I have tens of thousands of wheat (as well as corn, beans, etc) in storage. What I am having a hard time with is finding storage space for the fruit I import for ale production, as well as for the huge amount of food I produce annually from more than 200 farms.

So, I can alleviate two problems by switching a number of my breweries from fruit to wheat.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: mariesalias on June 23, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
Is the conversion for wheat different from fruit? I haven't paid too much attention to Taverns, except to note that berries are not efficient for it. In my farming challenge town I have so much overstock of wheat I am making ale from it to trade for food and logs, as my woodcutters do not want to keep up with the demand for firewood even though they should be.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on June 23, 2014, 11:11:54 AM
the problem i have about taking wheat to make ale is the fact they take 100 wheat for 10 ale. 1 brewer can raze a huge reserve of wheat in few seconds (or months i mean). and after when you notice all wheat gone and you check your ale ?? very very few.  :'(

it is :

10 wheat per ale
6 berries per ale
or 3 of apple/peach/plum/ect per ale

i think it s better to sell 10,000 wheat for 10,000 apples (same price 1:1) you ll get 333% more
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: mariesalias on June 23, 2014, 11:33:49 AM
I thought Berries were the ones that took 10 per. I must have mixed up the numbers. :D

Usually I only use fruit, but as I said, my current town is producing so much wheat (and corn) that I need to get rid of some of it! I will keep this in mind though as food becomes more of an issue.


ETA:  I am also maintaining large stockpiles of fruits from trading meats, but you have a point about efficiency.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on June 23, 2014, 11:57:31 AM
http://banished-wiki.com/wiki/Ale (http://banished-wiki.com/wiki/Ale)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 23, 2014, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: mariesalias on June 23, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
In my farming challenge town I have so much overstock of wheat I am making ale from it to trade for food and logs, as my woodcutters do not want to keep up with the demand for firewood even though they should be.

This is one of the issues I have had trouble with too. In my case the problem was first the declining supply of logs, and then once I ramped up imports the distribution of logs from the TPs to the choppers.

The overstock of wheat combined with a general lack of storage space is why I am thinking of using the mountains of wheat to make ale.

Quote from: RedKetchup on June 23, 2014, 11:11:54 AM

i think it s better to sell 10,000 wheat for 10,000 apples (same price 1:1) you ll get 333% more

Ordinarily it would be, except for the whole storage issue; I don't want to keep 10,000 wheat stocked at a TP waiting for the fruit vendor to arrive. In the meantime I also need to buy logs, coal, iron, wool, leather....and for that I need ale. I believe that ale is very high in value in relation to the amount of space it consumes at the TP.

Does anyone know how much ale "weighs" per unit?

edit: Ale apparently weighs only 1 per unit. That means that a TP with 9,999 ale (the max of a single item you can place in one TP) has a trade value of ~80,000, compared with the ~10,000 trade value of the same amount of wheat.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: slink on June 23, 2014, 12:08:57 PM
The alcoholic production of the materials seems to be related to the ease of obtaining them.

I agree though, that tremendous amounts of food disappear into taverns, never to be seen again.  I suppose it makes a decent trade good, but I've never seen it have any effect on my populations.

One can trade wheat for logs, coal, iron, wool, and leather.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Paeng on June 24, 2014, 01:32:12 AM
Well, looking at the chart here -
http://banishedinfo.com/t/Trade_calculator/production

it shows that you are even losing money when trading ale made from wheat...
At 100 product cost it will bring 80 (8 x 10), a loss of -20 (or -0.2 profit ratio).


Quote from: slink on June 23, 2014, 12:08:57 PMI suppose it makes a decent trade good

Yeah, ale made from Fruit brings in a good price...
At 30 product cost it will bring 80 (8 x 10), a profit of 50 (or 1.667 profit ratio)...

Only Wool (2) and Firewood (7) ratios are higher...
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 05:24:26 AM
I understand I'm losing money. It isn't about money.

My citizens don't consume all the food I produce (plus they eat half the fruit I buy for ale production). My barns, markets, and houses are full of wheat (and beans and corn and fruit). It's about freeing up storage space.

I can either build more barns and fill them up too, or I can do something useful with it.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on June 24, 2014, 09:27:24 AM
i would build a new trading post just for that. 10k wheat in inventory and autobuy 10k of fruits (or something else)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: rkelly17 on June 24, 2014, 09:32:52 AM
Far be it from me to claim any expertise at all in trading. I feel like I'm always  on the edge of disaster when I'm dependent on trade for essentials. What I am doing in my 500 farmer town is growing massive amounts of cherries (they were the first fruit I had available) to supply my taverns. Since the challenge is to get over 500 farmers, I'm not as frugal with them as I might be otherwise. I do have quite a bit of wheat (also corn, beans and cabbage--wish the traders took sauerkraut), but I'm a bit afraid to ferment it because of a bad experience in my early playing of Banished (Can we say "spiral of death," class?). I'm having the same issue as @irrelevant: I'm not getting in enough logs for firewood, building and tool making. Now I'm buying firewood and coal (as well as running 4 coal mines) to try and keep everybody warm. I have plenty of cherry ale  ::) to sell, but the traders are not bringing enough logs.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 09:57:42 AM
I'm buying 90% of my fruit, so that is second on my autotrade priority (after logs); for some reason I dislike orchards. I hate it when they start looking ragged. I know, I'm a wacko.

I'm going to experiment with wheat into ale and see how it goes. I'll also give packing one TP with wheat a try, just for @RedKetchup  ;)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Paeng on June 24, 2014, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 09:57:42 AMfor some reason I dislike orchards. I hate it when they start looking ragged.

;D yeah, same here...

also I find orchards absolutely unpredictable in terms of yield... once they look ragged, their results are really spurious - one year I get 780, the next 320, the one after 460... nothing I can really work with or make a plan... on top of that, I have not figured out a good way to get most of the harvest to my brewers - so much disappears into barns, markets and private households... and that poor brewer does not really have much chance against the vendors with their fat carts...

Have you found a good strategy to supply your breweries with fruit?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
Where possible the 21 breweries are placed at the 9 ports with barns adjacent, or at the markets nearest the ports, and I buy as much fruit as I can. I've standardized on plum and cherry and place orders for both. Some boats bring 12-16,000 fruit. The brewers rarely run out, only if I get a really bad string of seed and livestock merchants.

The citizens still eat tons. Not sure how much I'm buying in a year; last year 22,800 fruit went into ale production. Right now there's 15,000 fruit in homes, and 150,000 food total. Current pop is 1900+, so that's about 9 months' consumption.

Based on that I'd guess I'm buying 40-45,000 fruit. If you count all that against what the ale is bringing in (maybe 60,000) it's not great. But citizens need fruit, so I'd be buying tons of it anyway since I'm hardly producing any.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Paeng on June 24, 2014, 04:20:06 PM
Thanks... yeah, I'll have to change a bit. I had tried to set up a system where my markets would get most fruit from my local orchards, and the brewers get the imports... but that bogged down pretty fast  :o
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 05:25:19 PM
Here's an example. Five breweries in this screenie @ two port/market combos.

Another one. Six breweries in here with another one building (in the spot where I just demolished my first hospital, smack in the center of town). ;D
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on June 24, 2014, 06:02:08 PM
woah 1927 citizens !\/! so lovely !
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
My second town  8)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 24, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
Okay, one unanticipated glitch with using wheat to make ale, the volume produced is limited by the inputs, not by the output. In other words, the annual production of ale at a brewery using wheat is only 30% as much as at one using fruit. So, plan B: jam the TPs with wheat for trade, as @RedKetchup suggested.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: rkelly17 on June 25, 2014, 06:21:42 AM
Quote from: Paeng on June 24, 2014, 01:57:27 PM
Have you found a good strategy to supply your breweries with fruit?

In the 500 farmer challenge town, where I am trying to maximize the number of farmers, I am keeping 18 taverns supplied with cherries. I have been growing most of them myself--every couple of years I buy a thousand or two just to make sure, but normal supply is over 10,000. That involves many, many 4 high by 15 wide cherry orchards, probably 4-6 per tavern. In a normal settlement I'm not sure I'd do that. Most of my 4 times 9X9 farms have one 9X9 square devoted to fruit other than cherries for the citizens to eat. There are large blocks of 15X4 cherry orchards near every cluster of taverns, which are mostly near trading posts since I'm selling all the ale. Lately I've noticed that the predominant fruit in most of my markets is also cherries, since that is what is most plentiful of the fruits, so every couple of years I'm buying 2-4000 peaches, pears, plums or apples to supplement.

Like I said, though, I don't think I'd do this in a normal town. Those taverns consume a lot of fruit.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on June 25, 2014, 11:48:48 AM
ya in my 500 farmers map i closed all brewers since 3-4 years, since my food stock got murdered by bad frost. maybe before final save i ll put them up, depending of my stock/production/used
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: mariesalias on June 25, 2014, 04:18:55 PM
Okay, you guys have convinced me! I traded away my overstock of wheat and am focusing on just three fruits to buy for all the taverns. I have some orchards of all the fruits so the people will still have fruit.

I did not put any of my taverns very near trade posts though (so far) and only two are near the orchards currently. I am not used to having so many farms and taverns; it is a learning experience for sure!
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 26, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
Also related to trading and production, I'm abandoning making steel tools. From now on I'm making only iron tools to sell, and I'll buy steel tools; iron sell for 8 and steel cost only 12. If I run out, they can use the damn iron tools. I'm tired of buying coal so my heat seekers can use it in their homes. They snap it up and burn through it like crack.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on June 26, 2014, 09:16:42 PM

Quote from: irrelevant on June 26, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
I'm tired of buying coal so my heat seekers can use it in their homes. They snap it up and burn through it like crack.
...and now there's a firewood crisis.  ::)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Paeng on July 04, 2014, 04:24:04 PM
Quote from: mariesalias on June 25, 2014, 04:18:55 PMam focusing on just three fruits to buy for all the taverns. I have some orchards of all the fruits so the people will still have fruit.

Yeah, I'm going a similar route - some orchards with different fruit and nuts, as supplement for my markets (and town 'eye-candy'  ;) )... while my breweries (currently 7) are dotted around my map (without any real concern about proximity to ports and such), I buy ONE fruit (currently pears, by the thousands) for ALL my brewers... The pear-ale goes directly to my ports, and I make good profit on it, allowing to buy e.g. steel tools (which, like Irrelevant, I have given up to produce on my own)... and I don't really have to do much management for it.

For my playing-style I like this brewery/orchard combination best... otherwise I find orchards for general food production way too unreliable...
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: rkelly17 on July 05, 2014, 07:50:18 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on June 26, 2014, 09:16:42 PM

Quote from: irrelevant on June 26, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
I'm tired of buying coal so my heat seekers can use it in their homes. They snap it up and burn through it like crack.
...and now there's a firewood crisis.  ::)

This is why I gave up on making steel tools. The little buggers are so greedy of coal that I have never been able to avoid an eventual tool crisis when trying to make steel tools. Now I just use coal to supplement firewood as needed. In my largest settlements I end up buying firewood and coal as well as woodcutting and mining. I really should build more stone houses.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 05, 2014, 09:33:18 AM
@rkelly17  In my vegetarian town, I'm being pretty diligent about building mainly stone houses. In those cases where I slap down wooden houses (on the edge of expansion where raw materials and laborers are scarce), I go back through and upgrade pretty much continuously. Having a few boarding houses scattered around makes this relatively painless, plus there's the added bonus of evicting the basement dwellers and encouraging them to hook up.

It is making a huge difference in both the firewood and also the log situation.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: mariesalias on July 05, 2014, 12:12:05 PM
I am also making an effort in my vegetarian town to build more stone houses. I don't know if I can build all stone houses though, as I am not crazy about the models for them.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: rkelly17 on July 06, 2014, 10:53:15 AM
Quote from: irrelevant on July 05, 2014, 09:33:18 AM
@rkelly17  In my vegetarian town, I'm being pretty diligent about building mainly stone houses. In those cases where I slap down wooden houses (on the edge of expansion where raw materials and laborers are scarce), I go back through and upgrade pretty much continuously. Having a few boarding houses scattered around makes this relatively painless, plus there's the added bonus of evicting the basement dwellers and encouraging them to hook up.

It is making a huge difference in both the firewood and also the log situation.

I know I should probably build more stone houses. In the early going I never have enough stone and then I have certain aesthetic sensibilities which lead me to build log houses on farms and in forest villages. In my vegetarian town I am trading in enough stone that I could convert all of my log houses to stone--if I just remember to.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on July 06, 2014, 11:39:15 AM
in my vegetarian chalenge i never never did a wooden house. since year 0, before i click 'play' only stone houses were settled on the ground.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: canis39 on July 08, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
That is interesting, in my vegetarian town, I am only using wooden houses. I have something like 250 houses and all are wooden except maybe 10 or so.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: mariesalias on July 10, 2014, 01:29:42 AM
I can't even afford the resources yet to make a full half of the houses stone but I can upgrade some later.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 27, 2014, 03:40:23 PM
In my current town, I managed to build up a large stockpile of all kinds of resources (i.e. 80k food, 5k stone, 4k iron, etc.), and although the herbalists' production vary greatly, the citizens don't use herbs very quickly. 

The only issue is I always run short of is Ale.  When I use fruit, the fruits disappear way before next harvest because people eat them even while there's a huge supply of other food.  When there are fruits available, they get pulled around to other markets where there are no brewers or ones using a different recipe.  The only time I can consistently make ale is when I import tons of fruits.  It's such a hassle to micromanage trade with like 15 trading posts and switch the production to whatever fruit.  Playing that style with reliance on heavy trading makes the game something else, imo.

Like OP said, I don't mind inefficiencies; because if you're rich in other resources, it doesn't matter much.  Is wheat the answer to consistent ale?  Why do we have to use traders to snatch it up before everyone gets drunk and it disappears?  How come people smoke herbs at a slower rate?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on July 27, 2014, 03:44:47 PM
i think 2-3 trading post are OP, but having 10+ TP are just a pain. on every hour of play , i pass maybe like 45mins just cause the merchants. thats sad.

of course markets will always try to get of everything to sell in their markets, this include the fruits you would hope to keep for your taverns, you need to plan more fruits just cause that, you ll know their need their shared part.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 27, 2014, 04:05:22 PM
I took a look at the trading challenge; it doesn't seem fun. 

In any case, I don't think berries are the answer.  It's not as inefficient as wheat, but taverns produce berry ale much slower than using fruits.  This is probably due to the distribution of berries along the perimeter of forest nodes, and it takes the brewers and/or vendors time to grab them, and plus it dries up faster on conversion. 

I'm considering changing all fields to wheat to try it.  It seems easier to maintain a large stock?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on July 27, 2014, 05:10:25 PM
arent you scared to get out of food and everyone getting hungry and die ?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 27, 2014, 05:11:53 PM
@Dookie  No, wheat is the worst. To make ten ale it takes 100 wheat, 60 berries, or 30 of any other fruit. This in itself wouldn't be so bad, as you can grow scads of wheat, but the limitation then becomes how many inputs the brewer can carry in one trip from storage to the tavern. The limit is 100 points (but so often guys only pick up 84 for some reason).

First, remember that only the brewer himself can move wheat/berries/fruit to the tavern for ale production.

That means that, using wheat, at best the brewer can make one batch of ale, then he has to go get more wheat; in practice he'll have to move three loads of wheat to make two batches of ale. With berries it's not quite as bad, but still the theoretical maximum is 3 loads of berries to make 5 batches of ale; in practice it will be 3 loads for 4 batches.  But with other fruits, from a single load of fruit he can make 2 or 3 batches of ale.

Of course each batch of ale takes the same amount of time to brew, regardless of what you are making it from. So time spent restocking is the critical factor; every trip to storage for more supplies significantly reduces the time available for production. In practice I find that annual ale output from wheat is about 25-35% of that from fruit, and using berries is about half. Which is intuitive, given the ratios.

The best way to make ale is to standardize on one type of fruit, and trade for tons of it. Use wheat to buy fruit, if wheat is what you've got. Grow some fruit to supplement your purchases if you can spare the land, but don't rely on orchards alone for serious ale production. I have 30 taverns in my trading challenge town, no way I could grow anything like enough fruit (~30,000/year, plus that much more that the people eat), and orchards just seem like a waste of land when I can mega-farm and trade beans and corn (and later, ale, when I'm producing oceans of that) for fruit instead.

I start out with my first tavern making ale from berries, because typically I have a tavern before I get a steady supply of fruit. But as soon a food merchant brings fruit of any kind, I switch to that.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: salamander on July 28, 2014, 03:06:03 AM
@irrelevant -- Thanks for that explanation; it's one of the clearest I've seen.

I generally make ale from fruit if I can, but that decision's only based on the amount of wheat/berries/fruit needed ... I'd never even thought to consider the amount of time it takes to keep the tavern supplied.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 28, 2014, 05:06:40 AM
@salamander  You're welcome! Over the years, I have studied taverns quite closely, from top to bottom, inside and out. ;)
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 29, 2014, 09:30:10 AM
One more remark about ale. I think the key to ale production is tavern placement. The best possible location for the tavern is immediately adjacent to the market, fronting it. This will make the brewer's trip to pick up more fruit as short as it can possibly be, allowing him to brew more batches of ale in a given amount of time than he would be able to if he were located farther out in the market circle.

Actually, I believe this is the key to all production. There's a reason that markets stock resources for all production buildings. It's so that producers abutting the market can have the shortest trip possible to pick up resources, and therefore will be able to spend the greatest possible amount of time in production. Let the vendors search far and wide for the resources, that's what they are for.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: tomplum68 on July 29, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
how many breweries can a market support?  if you theoretically put no houses in a market's radius and only breweries, would the vendors get only the items the breweries were calling for?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: salamander on July 29, 2014, 12:35:31 PM
Based on what others have seen, markets will stock resources to support a single production building ... ie, enough iron for one blacksmith, enough logs for one blacksmith and one woodcutter, etc ...

Taverns are a little different in practice because wheat/berries/fruit can be used for food as well as ale making, and markets stock a fair amount of food.  So, you may be able to support more than one tavern just because of the amount of food markets routinely stock.  On the other hand, I have taverns in market circles in which the market just doesn't stock the supplies the tavern needs.  Whether this is because the market is stocking supplies for another tavern in the circle, or for some other reason, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: RedKetchup on July 29, 2014, 12:44:31 PM
sometimes i wish we can do a ... Ask the Devs thread and get them answer our questions (like we often do with Blizzard and Warcraft) :P
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 29, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
I have a number of markets that are supporting two of each production building. I suspect they could support more than that, if the vendors had a nearby source for the needed resources. I do have one market that is supporting 8 blacksmiths, but there are 4 TPs pretty close by, and lots of stockpiles with iron. I'm assuming the blacksmiths are going to the market rather than to the stockpiles, because the market is closer, in between; the stockpiles being right there make it easy for the market to keep logs and iron in stock -- Screen 1

I think what the market does is, it tries to maintain a certain level of each resource. If that resource gets used, it sends a vendor to get more. If it keeps getting used, it sends out more vendors. If you have enough vendors, and the resources are near at hand, you can support a considerable resource flow through that market.

My production buildings rarely stop production, because I maintain very high inventories of fruit, iron, logs, and wool, coming in through 20 TPs, so the inputs are located from one end of the river to the other. Vendors rarely have to go very far from their markets to find critical resources. When I look at the markets that are supporting ale production, I normally see 200-500 fruit at each one, sometimes even over 1000. I have very little production at remote markets, though, mainly firewood, but also some coats and tools.

Most of my markets have 12 vendors, this is in a town with 2700 pop and 24 markets, so it is a fairly mature system. Obviously at earlier stages, there will not be nearly this many vendors, the first few markets when first built typically get only one vendor or possibly two.

edit: just got home and reviewed my markets; it had been some time since I had done that. The typical 12-vendor markets were showing some signs of strain (total lack of iron at some) so I have bumped the number of vendors to 15 or 20, depending on the situation.

Regardless of anything else though, every market had fruit, and lots of it. I assume this is because fruit is also a food, kept in stock for the villagers.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 29, 2014, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: tomplum68 on July 29, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
if you theoretically put no houses in a market's radius and only breweries, would the vendors get only the items the breweries were calling for?
No, markets will stock some amount of pretty much any item except stone, regardless of what is built in the market circle. I think it was @mariesalias who did some testing of this, but I can't remember exactly where that was posted.

edit:
it was @slink, not @mariesalias, who did this testing.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: slink on July 29, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
I built a market with no buildings within its circle, and it stocked all item types available excepting, as @irrelevant points out, stone.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 29, 2014, 04:53:12 PM
@slink  ah, it was you! Thanks for the correction. That test was well-done; simple and definitive.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 29, 2014, 06:21:42 PM
You all are right.  Wheat is terrible for ale production rates.   And yeah, I had the taverns right next to the market for that reason.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 29, 2014, 08:07:44 PM
@Dookie  Did you actually try wheat into ale? I did in my previous town, switched about half of my taverns (that would have been 8 or ten at the time) to wheat for several months; it was awful. :o That was when I figured this out.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 31, 2014, 03:34:00 PM
yeah @irrelevant,  I switched my crops and had wheat up the wazoo after harvest.  The taverns still produced less. 

I think it has to do with how much raw material a brewer can carry and how much wheat/berry/fruit a tavern can hold.  (i.e. inventory space)  Since the recipe depletes the wheat and berries at a faster rate, the brewer has to go get it more frequently.  He's spending more time in transit apparently. 

IRL, brewing most these fruits is very similar.  Sure, an apple cider master brewer can't make the perfect plum wine, but it doesn't make sense for him to be grabbing only apples when there's a limited supply.  It's like a tavern serving only one type of liquor.

For simplicity, I think the way it's setup in the game is fine though.  BUT, it makes berries and wheat not viable for ale production.  You never want to make berry or wheat ale in this game, even if you have plenty of berries or wheat.  Why give us the option when it's like a guaranteed fail?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 31, 2014, 04:32:22 PM
Quote from: Dookie on July 31, 2014, 03:34:00 PM
yeah @irrelevant,  I switched my crops and had wheat up the wazoo after harvest.  The taverns still produced less. 

I think it has to do with how much raw material a brewer can carry and how much wheat/berry/fruit a tavern can hold.  (i.e. inventory space)  Since the recipe depletes the wheat and berries at a faster rate, the brewer has to go get it more frequently.  He's spending more time in transit apparently. 

@Dookie Yes, you have it I think :D

If you have no fruit other than berries, you can still make ale for trade. I almost always get a tavern built before I'm getting a regular supply of fruit through trade, so I'm using berries. It's still better than not making ale.

As far as wheat is concerned, I think that in the original concept for this game, happiness (and health) played a much more central role than it appears to at present, and that ale would contribute significantly to happiness, and that it would therefore pay to make ale from wheat in happiness, rather than having no ale.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 31, 2014, 06:01:56 PM
It might have been cool to have the health and happiness provide buffs of some sort, but I could see how that could make the early game even slower due to debuffs. 

@irrelevant
The taverns can produce a small ale surplus from berries when you don't have many folks drinking it quickly.  Once I get some population, I have to place taverns close to where traders can grab it.  My issue isn't that I can't produce enough ale to trade.
It's more like you need many taverns and a large supply of fruit to supply your citizens--nevermind trade.  It steers you towards monoculture (i.e. single type of fruit orchards) OR heavy importation.  Berries and wheat are a waste of tavern utility because the bottleneck isn't the supply of raw materials, but rather, inventory space.  Why would a brewer only carry and store such a small amount?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on July 31, 2014, 06:49:35 PM
You solve the ale storage problem by having the traders suck it into the TPs. I try not to let my guys drink any of it. It's all for trade. It is the best trade good per storage value there is, 8 for 1.

I have 33 taverns; this past year I produced ~13,000 ale. All the fruit is imported. I buy all I can, and let the guys eat as much as they want; after all they need it for 5-heart health. Earlier I had been banking big stocks of fruit in my TPs, like 45,000, just so my guys wouldn't eat it all. But now I can afford to buy enough that I don't care, I just let it go, and keep 2000 in a number of TPs in case of hard times or many seed traders in a row  :D

If I have any ale sitting in the taverns it's either because I don't have enough traders or I don't have the desired ale inventory in the TPs set high enough.

The ideal ale inventory in storage is 0. I have 28,000 ale in my TPs, and 397 in storage.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on July 31, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
That is a solution; as we mentioned before using traders to grab it, but I don't like it.

The problem is two sided and multifaceted:  On the demand side, your villagers drink it too quickly.  Okay, the solution is to just produce more.  When it comes to other products like firewood or clothing, it's pretty easy match to the supply to demand because we're not dealing with this inventory bottleneck. 

For example, citizens consume clothing relatively slowly, so it's easy for tailors to produce a surplus.  (This is roughly the same situation for tools, although less so).

Example 2, if you have plenty of logs, then you won't run out of firewood if you have enough woodcutters.  That's because the cutters carry enough raw material (logs) and store more at their workplace relative to the output.  In other words, it doesn't take 50 logs to make 1 firewood.   This helps in several different ways. 
1) It's easier for vendors at markets to maintain a supply of local logs.
2) Cutters aren't wasting as much time grabbing logs since logs aren't running out as frequently at the woodshop. 

Relative to consumption rate, the raw materials inventory issue is unique to ale.  Traders can get around it; so of course, we can use this OP mechanic, but I rather not abuse.   I prefer using 1-3 trading posts.  I also would like to produce some ale if I have a ton of wheat without having a swarm of traders snatch it up.  I'd like the feeling of having my whole town drunk and plenty of ale to go around :D
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: salamander on August 01, 2014, 04:23:22 AM
This is just an impression with nothing to back it up, but it seems that ale disappears from taverns in waves.  I wonder if those drinking binges coincide with periods when you don't have laborers doing anything at the moment.  If so, keeping your laborers busy could make more ale available for trading before it gets slurped up.

Anyone noticed something similar?
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: Dookie on August 01, 2014, 08:23:16 PM
Yes, folks take (sometimes large) chunks of resources to consume at their house.  I've also noticed that they go on binges where the ale disappears rapidly although it usually coincides with when one of my taverns has the wrong recipe or runs low on raw materials.

In my current town, my workforce is unbalanced with too many free laborers, so perhaps you're on to something about idle drinking.  I think an individual can grab too much at once whereas the brewer can't grab enough materials to make the same amount.  For every drinker you would need like so many taverns.   Look at irrelevant and the 33 taverns and still has to pull ale with traders.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: irrelevant on August 30, 2014, 06:53:14 PM
Well of course I'm pulling ale with the traders, I'm making ale to use for trade, not for my guys to drink!  ;D

Just wanted to say one more thing about ale, kind of a summary. The keys to making lots of ale for trading, and making it continuously.

As for buying fruit, this is what I do. Any boat arriving with fruit, the first thing I do (after buying any logs with firewood) is spend 1000 ale to buy 8000 fruit. This replaces the 3000 fruit it took to make that ale, provides 3000 fruit for food, and contributes 2000 to making even more ale.
Title: Re: Using Wheat to make Ale
Post by: rkelly17 on August 31, 2014, 07:23:28 AM
I'll second what @irrelevant said about ale: trade it, don't drink it. I do it a bit differently than he does, but the effect is the same. Keep trading post demand higher than current capacity.