Aging Mod Debate - Age Comparison
Vanilla adult/student 10-15 marry 10 babies 10-40
Real Time adult/student 10-15 marry 16 babies 17-44
Kid Proper Time adult/student 10-15 marry 15 babies 15-50
1:1 adult/student 6-12 marry 7 babies 15-35
1:1 My Alternative adult/student 7-11 marry 15 babies 15-45
The subject of aging mod use has been discussed many times on different threads,
@Nilla. Is it easier or harder using them? I think the vanilla start conditions tells a lot - easy, medium, and hard. The more buildings and people the easier it is. The fewer buildings and people the harder it is. With more people you can build more building, you can produce more. With fewer people you can produce what is need to survive (if there are not too many children to feed), it is difficult to produce extra to trade for seeds or livestock or other needed items. Difficult choice - extra worker or student. We all know education is important for more productive workers, one of few workers must be made a teacher. We know the effect of accepting uneducated nomads. I would not want to use aging mod without using Kid's Nomad Sign Complete or Nomad Well where % of nomads I control, and I don't think many other players would want to either.
The above chart also says a lot. It is not hard to tell which has highest population growth. With aging mods it is a lot of years before the starting children become educated workers and are old enough to marry, and have babies, and longer still for those babies to do the same.
Easier or harder - debatable - a matter of opinion. With knowledge and good strategy, with or without aging mod, the game is easier. Aging mods are definately not for everyone.
It´s been quite some time since I played other real-time ageing mods than Norseman and Ironman. Here children get students/adults with 12 and marry with 15, so it´s a longer time to support the unproductive children and students than in most other mods. You say that a few adults need to support a lot of children and that makes it harder to provide for everything they need. Sure, that´s right but everything happens so slow that you have so much time to discover what you need, build, develop and produce a surplus. It will also take much longer until mistakes will be punished.
In my present town, I build much too much, not necessarily because I need it, just because I want to do something. I guess it´s a matter of mentality. I´m the impatient kind, as you might have noticed. My population is now about 300 and to me, it´s now as hard/as easy as in vanilla speed. I don´t know if the map is big enough but if I can go on to say 500-800 I know it will be very difficult because it will grow much faster than a vanilla game. At least that was my impression the few times I had patience enough to build that big.
The very first aging mod I ever tried was your version
@Abandoned and boy what a difference in comparison to vanilla! I went back to vanilla briefly for like three or four games and it was like a breath of fresh air to be unshackled from that aging mod. :D
Now I am trying out North v6.2 with the Norseman aging mod and as I expected it was really slow again. I only played two games with your aging mod version when using RKEC, and I am currently in North with another game map/starting condition. I haven't used either of these aging mods very long and to be honest I am unable to tell a difference -- all I know is they are both slow, and I agree much harder when starting out; for me anyhow.
I like the idea of the aging mods, but for me as a brand new player it sure does make life hard! :P
a lot of the debate depends on your goal if you want to build a city and fill the map,then the vanilla speed is better.if you want to build villages and expand then an age mod helps.part of what started the age mods,was people didn't like kids at 13 having babies. many didn't like the young ages of the girls. the other side was old age. how old can a bannies be before he dies? it is a nice accomplishment when you keep them alive until they are 80 or so. hence there are many options even to each age mod. propertimemod i have is different than the final cut.
i can find stuff to do to keep us busy. there is always tomorrow to be ready for we can haul logs and cut firewood,set more traps,build more barns,etc grandma sends them to plant flowers or weed around the lilacs. grandpa is old and wants more benches. his knees get tired often. the children don't need to be very educated to haul rocks and logs.
the vanilla speed is wrong.it is set for a game. the bannies grow food on a year base plant in the spring and harvest in the fall. yet you want 9 mths to be 1 and a half months? that is like driving a lawn mower in a car race and wonder why you get run over or cant keep up. the bannies will get upset they will growl at you to build more houses. and then they demand a rest or they slow down. as you build those houses they are multiplying and now need more food. they are never content and happy. it can be a frantic pace.
I did have statistics all line up but they got uneven when I posted, tried to fix but couldn't. Thread does not like my tabs.
@brads3 I agree, vanilla speed is best for big city and high populations and those with less patience.
@Nilla you build much bigger towns than I do, our play styles are quite different. I still enjoy watching the building stages and the season changing and the animals. The first time I played The North after Tom Sawyer added the black grouse I missed taking care of many things because I kept watching those grouse crossing back and forth :D I wrote it into the story. The 1:1 alternative suits my play style well and it gives me 1 extra year to get the school built than the original 1:1 mod.
@MarkAnthony :D I read your try with my version, :D it does take some adjustment. I played vanilla quite awhile before I tried aging mods and found it difficult also. The slower start suits my play style and storytelling well. I would not want to play without a nomad attracter. Those extra workers are so important at the beginning and it is extremely frustrating when they arrive at the end of the map and cannot reach town, they will usually starve to death. I believe brads3 mentioned this to you before. Two ways to handle this is if they are not in town do not accept them unless you can quickly build a bridge nearby. I do not want to have to deny those early much needed nomads so I like to have a mod with a free to build jetty piece that can be quickly place over small stream or river. Kid's Houseboat mod and (soon to be released) Kid Fish n Ships mod has small jetty piece. Be sure first that you have enough food on hand. I have not tried Norseman aging mod but The North is very nice change of scene. :)
even dumb nomads should be smart enough to throw rocks across a stream. i don't feel bad debuging in a CC rough bridge if needed. you all worry about getting those 1st children a school too much. the amish put theirs to work on the farms.doesn't take much to haul rocks or cut trees.even less efficient, 1 worker still produces more than none. if the 1srt set of bannies is busy with the main workplaces, odds are the un-educated becomes a laborer. unless you are in a north climate,you can push the education down 10-20% without causing trouble.
there is good to the mini mod townhall. i do like the way it brings nomads. the size of the nomad groups increase but it is in proportion to your population. they don't throw huge groups at the beginning. 1 advantage is it spaces the nomads out. the 1st group usually arrives within 5 years. the next groups are about every 3 years apart. 1st it is more realistic than nomads waunderring out of the woods every year. 2nd it gives you time to recover from the extra supply needs and building construction.you loose 1 year of food by the time crop fields are cleared. plus you are busy that year building houses.the next year, you can stockpile food and tools again. this leaves you enough time to start building ahead for the next nomad set. even with using KID's nomad catchers,i like to do that pattern.. after the 1st few sets to get the game started,it works to make a smoother pace.
Quote from: brads3 on June 30, 2019, 10:18:08 PM
you all worry about getting those 1st children a school too much.
In my current North game with Anders & Ella start, I got my first kid to school rofl! :P
Yeah, modded... but... SCHOOL!!! ;D
@Abandoned asked me to make a jetty for nomad rescuing.
I have included it in my NomadSign Complete and put it here for all to download.
It is free to build and easily visible from a distance.
:) Thank you so much
@kid1293 for adding the jetty nomad crossing to the Nomad Sign, it works as it should. For those who don't know, the Nomad Sign is located in the Town Service section of the vanilla toolbar.
@brads3 I like the mini town hall also but Kid Nomad Sign and well have % to chose, thus you can chose 100% to start and 10% later on when your population grows. Mini town hall you will begin getting more than you want and have no choice but to accept or deny. I also really like the mini school and hospital - very quick to build and handy. I like variety and do not use it on every map. Try the jetty pieces Kid added, they work really well to rescue stuck nomads.
Quote from: kid1293 on July 01, 2019, 01:36:17 AM
@Abandoned asked me to make a jetty for nomad rescuing.
I have included it in my NomadSign Complete and put it here for all to download.
It is free to build and easily visible from a distance.
Hi
@kid1293 and
@Abandoned It'll take me a
while looong while to get the hang of things, especially in the regard to switching mods in and out. I mean some mods you can add to a current game with no issue; some you can add to a current game but have to destroy something before you add it; some you add but then are forced to start a whole new game; and then there is the issue of whether they have to be placed above or below others etc,.! ???
It all makes my head spin! lol :P So until my head stops spinning and I get more comfortable with doing this, can you please instruct me as to where I should place this when using North v6.2.
I'm guessing above, right? hehe
Thanks
No worry. The Nomad Sign is working on a separate code and can be placed anywhere.
It is not even red in the mod list. :)
Thanks for the quick response
@kid1293 Can I add this to my current game, and if I can I assume it has to be at the very bottom right since you cannot change the order of mods during a game. Right?
@MarkAnthony I know exactly what you mean. :) I have a system that does not require any mod list arranging - only enabling and disabling. I rarely add anything to an existing map (never remove something). Some mods like CC, RKEC, and The North I think are complete by themselves and really need nothing added. Nomad Sign complete should be perfectly safe to add to existing map,
@kid1293 will correct me if I am wrong. I would place it above The North I would think. I have it in my mod list just above what I consider major mods.
If you feel safe with dropping it in at the bottom it is okay.
It will be called with the placement of the sign. No interaction with other mods.
:) :) :) It would be a very long message ;D I have almost 300 mods but I will be happy to explain my system. As soon as I have a chance I will start a thread. You can get some idea by looking at the Intro page of one of my blog stories, I list the mods that are enabled for each map and story.
I do not use mod manager but others do and seem to like it very much. I have my mods arrange a bit different and it works well for me. It is a bit of work to set up and a tedious task if list gets mixed up. I have learned how to avoid having that happen. :)
@MarkAnthony I will definitely start a thread about my system with a good summery of how it works and the type of mods in each section. Since we all have different likes and dislikes the mods would differ and I have many that are probably no longer available I will not list them all.
Nice to hear you are reading my stories :)
My Mod List System thread can be found here:
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=3126.0
It's only a debate if we have to take everybody's personal way of playing in to account and every other mod they use.
If you just focus on the intent of the Vanilla game and just the aging mod, it's pretty simple. Increase aging speed will make things harder, decrease aging speed will make things easier.
Why?
The vanilla game has 5:1 aging and it's production values were focused around that speed. If you increase aging speed, it's much harder for production to keep up. Decrease aging speed, it's far easier for production to keep up.
It's hard to argue with basic math. I recall somewhere where the game designer said he was constantly battling with the numbers to find some kind of balance between time, aging and production and said it was really tough. Makes sense, because it can be highly subjective. As we see in the forum, some like to fast build, others like to build slow.
The game designer had to find that middle compromise. We all know the game has a certain balance you must achieve or things go bad real quick. You can't grow too fast, production can't keep up. You can't grow too slow, your people die of old age before enough children grow up.
I'm curious what the debate really is? To use it or not use it? That's not a debate, that's a personal choice.
I will not repeat what was stated in the first post of this thread, but the subject was again brought up whether aging mods made the game easier or harder. It does not involve basic math because basic math does not factor in the education rate or anything else that affects production.
@theonlywanderer perhaps you will tell us if you use an aging mod and why or why not? Why is it your personal choice?
@Abandoned LOL! What? Everything about Banished is basic math.
I repeat "basic math because basic math does not factor in the education rate or anything else that affects production".
Thank you for your replies
Yeah, okay....
So... you have 20 citizens, they each need 100 food a year.... hmmmm... yeah I can see your dilemma, that's like quantum physics level right there.
You have 20 log homes, they each need 25 fuel a year, Stone about 18.... whew, that's simply not even possible to understand, just way beyond human capabilities.
Crops, Pastures, Orchards all have expected values depending on size and educated and non educated worker. Many charts exist that detail all these out.
You have to use these basic values to know what you need to build. IE... 1 crop can produce up to 847 food per year with educated workers.
None of this changes do to an aging mod. Even if the mod includes changes to these values, the modder should provide that information about what they changed.
@theonlywanderer No one said that an aging mod changes production totals. Education rate and other factors do, with or without an aging mod, a little more complex than 2+2
I have tried to be nice but again you are rude, insulting, and condescending. Quoting you from the Aging Mod Challenge Thread "You clearly cannot comprehend and I'm tired of dealing with your idiocy." I am locking this thread. Please do not post on the Challenge Thread again, but feel free to remove your insulting post. Thank you