World of Banished

I downloaded all new/reworked DS-mods yesterday and started a game. It was late and I had some problems finding a map, so I didn't really play, just started. I'm not very choosy in picking a map. Most maps are fine with me. But when I test new mods, I want all my people to be educated, no uneducated, that mess up the production numbers. Some mods have small schools, that could be built very fast, this one not. (At least I haven't found one). If you start on medium or easy, you have some building materials from the start, so a school with normal demand on material, can be built fast. But when I test mods, that contains a lot of buildings, I want to avoid vanilla buildings as far as possible. So I started my game on hard and was haunted by the 9-years old.  >:(  ;)

I have seen, that you can use a lot of builders to build the school fast like some other buildings, you want soon like the gatherer. I like that but still, the wood and stone must be collected, so it will hardly work anyway. I think it took 10 attempts. Even a map with only 3 children had a 9-year old. Finally, this map! I didn't even had to build the school the first I did. The oldest child was 6.   :D

I have some questions to you @Discrepancy:

You have your own versions of most buildings, but I haven't found a forester. Have I missed it or aren't there any? If you have none; why? It would be nice to have similar looking buildings in the woods. I started with a medium sized gatherer. (fit best to the vanilla forester) Normally I also build a fisher from the start for a basic supply on food, but the starting spot isn't directly at the river or a lake, so I built a apiary insted. That will support my people with the basic food. Now I can play with the other new things. :)

I've built a tent camp; with wooden tents. I haven't found anything about the heat economy. I can only see, that the small tens can be upgraded to leather tents with better heat economy. How are they compared to vanilla houses?

Of cause, I have to try these mini hunter/gatherer and I will also try the fisher as soon as I can. I like the idea. It's a development of @Tom Sawyer´s instant workplaces, but it cost a little to establish one. Good!

The radius of the hunter is very small, it's seldom a deer in a circle, but I have established 4 places and switch a hunter between them, when I see a deer. It's a thing you can do at the beginning, with few people, so I guess this is only something, that are primary useful right at the start. I can agree with what other people have said, that it's hard to find the wee workplace in the woods. But I can also agree with you @Discrepancy, that it's hard to make in another way, if we want it small. I use the big footprint of the vanilla market, to sea ch for the "red spot", when I want to find it. It works good.

I have just produced some baskets to test the different gatherers. It looks like they are consumed, if you want acorns but work "for ever" with the other resources. If I understand it right, the eternal gatherer need trees to find something, the acorn alternative can be put anywhere. I haven't tried it yet but it looks like the basket is broken after you've collected 55 acorns. That's very poor quality! Especially as the other gear seems to the most excellent work.  :-\ I have understood, that this is a test to see how it works with some tools that are consumed. The idea is interesting, I will say more when I've tested it.

The picture shows my settlement, not very big but it´s only been there for a little more than a year!

glad to see you do this test blog,NILLA. it will give us a chance to see how the various buildings work.can we get some good close up pics of the different buildings?? thank you

OK Brads. I've played another two years and have a couple of more buildings to show.

First picture shows my tent camp. It looks like 6 tents but it's actually 4 units. ??? (Single tent for 3 , double for 5 people). In the background you can see the school and one house. I wanted them to be a small unit, that's why they are built so close. In front we have a woodchopper, a small workshop and an apiary.

Second picture shows my forest. A pity, that there are no forester in the same style. The other buildings are lovely. And as far as I can see, they have vanilla values.

The third picture shows the Celtic round house and a barn. I find the house too big to be for a family of 4. But it's nice. Something very different from most other buildings.

I've also tested the different small gatherers, who use baskets. I don't see, why I should use the acorn gatherer. The other collected around 1000 food, in one year, without using more than 1 basket. The other consumed the other 4 baskets and collected only 220 food. The baskets aren't expensive, but it took all spring, so I don't think he will reach the same output as the other, even with more baskets.

i like those firepits. i take it they burn without a worker constantly feeding the fires? is there a decoratioon option to those or they are only available with the tents?

Decorations? Me? No! They belong to the tents. One family, one fire. I like them, too. :)

I have to reverse what I said yesterday.

QuoteI've also tested the different small gatherers, who use baskets. I don't see, why I should use the acorn gatherer. The other collected around 1000 food, in one year, without using more than 1 basket. The other consumed the other 4 baskets and collected only 220 food. The baskets aren't expensive, but it took all spring, so I don't think he will reach the same output as the other, even with more baskets

The small gatherer who collects the normal food, didn't pick that much wild food the foolowing years. It was only the first year. A year or two later, it's only around 400, what's quite reasonable. As I guessed, the lady in the basket on my picture didn't collect 1000 acorns, but 700, and that's very good. For this she needs 13 baskets, not an high input.

I also tested the small fisher, I built one on the stream, unfortunately in the wrong direction. It looks a bit funny, but he actually catches some fish. :) I want to compare this fisher on the small stream with a college on the river. These action circles by the fisher and gatherers are a bit confusing. The small fisher has an area, that stays when hi´s built. That implicates that it has an radius and that the fisher on the river will catch more, than the fisher on the stream. The jetty fisher, though has a circle on the footprint but it disappears, as the fisher is built. Does that mean, that it has no action area and that you can fill the surroundings with other buildings without losing productivity? The same thing with the small acorn gatherer. It has an area, as you set the footprint but none as it's "built".

The fishmonger isn't changed, as far as I can see. No input of fish. I might remember wrong, but it looks like the productivity is higher, than it was in the last version. Or maybe this one is only good located.

Thanks for the excellent testing @Nilla ,

I am working on a forester for the set... originally the hunter was going to be the forester, but I changed my mind half way through making it. But there is another I've started on.

Also a Herbalist and Hospital are near completion for DSSV:Services.

I have also found the same with the small gatherer in testing - large fluctuations in productivity, I am not sure why it does this, the same seems to happen with the water pump, so maybe it is tied with the gatherer profession.

Yes the small fisher can be tricky to place, I included the extra empty tile to be placed close to the water - I think I wrote this in the toolbar tool-tip.

So far all of the fishing spots still use the vanilla code, so the radius is functional and if things are built into the area it should lower production.

The acorn gatherer isn't effected by the radius, I just added that so it would give the perception that it is ;)
but it is really just a production building like the blacksmith: it takes in one item (Gathering Baskets) & produces another (Acorns)
I like to think the cost associated is perhaps in the storage of the acorns. The gather puts them all in the basket then drops off at the nearest storage place, leaving them in the basket, as just dumping acorns into the barn could be quite dangerous underfoot :)   -- well that is my opinion on them consuming the baskets.

Fishmonger hasn't changed a lot, that is on my next to do updates, though yes the sorting/production should be a bit quicker. It should be consuming fish, I will have to see what is happening. I know the UI needs work.
The Fishmonger can be placed anywhere, it isn't dependent on anything except for the fish input and the workers.

School is too expensive? adds a challenge :)

I will put together something of the fuel usage of all the buildings - but that said, I just looked through the code and because the last build I re-wrote a lot of the code I had not updated it from vanilla stonehouse values. The plan though is for the tents to not be very economical in fuel usage at all - requiring fuel for most, if not all of the year. This will make stocking up on firewood early very important (as always).
That does bring up an issue with this game: we can make so many changes to make the start harder, but not so much later game.

The hunter I will give a larger radius, but like I have said on the mod forum page, I am still trying to make the work-sites more dependable on the specialized gear.

Thanks for testing & feedback.


There are no decorations of the campfires @brads3 , they are part of the tent housing. If I make decorative, they will not flame/burn unless a worker is assigned to them like RK's.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM

I am working on a forester for the set... originally the hunter was going to be the forester, but I changed my mind half way through making it. But there is another I've started on.

Also a Herbalist and Hospital are near completion for DSSV:Services.

Nice to hear.:)

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
I have also found the same with the small gatherer in testing - large fluctuations in productivity, I am not sure why it does this, the same seems to happen with the water pump, so maybe it is tied with the gatherer profession.

I placed the gatherer in a dense forest, that was the reason for the high harvest the first year. When he had picked all the "old" food, new food doesn't grow that fast. My output was around 400 all following years, and didn't variate much. I find that a reasonable value, so there is no need to change anything here.

I built a water pump yesterday. It has only ran a few years but the output was very constant. It's quite low, just around 160. I don't know yet, where you can use water and how much, so I can't say, if I find it too low or good that way.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
Yes the small fisher can be tricky to place, I included the extra empty tile to be placed close to the water - I think I wrote this in the toolbar tool-tip.

So far all of the fishing spots still use the vanilla code, so the radius is functional and if things are built into the area it should lower production.

The small fisher is alright. You may place it wrong the first time you use it, but you do that once or twice, then you know how to put it. It work in the wrong way and it's cheap to build new, so I see no need to change anything.

It's a small difference between the small fisher on the stream and the same fisher on the river. The output is quite high for such a small fisher; I noted values 434-595 on the stream and 528-688 on the river. The jetty fisher produces more; 835-910. I find that very high for one fisher, but I guess, that's the way it will be with vanilla values. Since you say the radius is important; I like to see the radius on the jetty fisher, after it's built. It disappears now.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
The acorn gatherer isn't effected by the radius, I just added that so it would give the perception that it is ;)
but it is really just a production building like the blacksmith: it takes in one item (Gathering Baskets) & produces another (Acorns)
I like to think the cost associated is perhaps in the storage of the acorns. The gather puts them all in the basket then drops off at the nearest storage place, leaving them in the basket, as just dumping acorns into the barn could be quite dangerous underfoot :)   -- well that is my opinion on them consuming the baskets.

In fact, I don't mind the numbers of baskets. My criticism was more an attempt of irony.  :-\

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
Fishmonger hasn't changed a lot, that is on my next to do updates, though yes the sorting/production should be a bit quicker. It should be consuming fish, I will have to see what is happening. I know the UI needs work.
The Fishmonger can be placed anywhere, it isn't dependent on anything except for the fish input and the workers.

It needs in input. The way it is now, it produces too much compared to other food producers, more than 1000 with an average value around 2.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
School is too expensive? adds a challenge :)

No, the school is not too expensive. I didn't mean that. It's similar to vanilla values.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
I will put together something of the fuel usage of all the buildings - but that said, I just looked through the code and because the last build I re-wrote a lot of the code I had not updated it from vanilla stonehouse values. The plan though is for the tents to not be very economical in fuel usage at all - requiring fuel for most, if not all of the year. This will make stocking up on firewood early very important (as always).
That does bring up an issue with this game: we can make so many changes to make the start harder, but not so much later game.

That sounds good to me. It doesn't seem, like the tents need much fuel, rather less than a vanilla wood house.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM
The hunter I will give a larger radius, but like I have said on the mod forum page, I am still trying to make the work-sites more dependable on the specialized gear.

The way it is now, it doesn't need any changes. It's too cheap for a larger radius. I'm curious to see, if you find a way to use the gear.

Thank you for your work. It makes fun to play with. :)

I was a way a few days and as I came back and looked into WOB, I was a bit overwhelmed from all what's written here, in these few days. Even if we're not so many people active on this page; those who are, are very productive. :)

Anyway I decided yesterday, that I want to start a new game. I still want to make mainly a "DS-town". It makes a lot of fun to play with the mods from @Discrepancy, but I also want to test some from, @embx61, the new version of @RedKetchup´s Garden utilities and I was very pleased, as I saw, that @kralyerg has published some of the CC maps as a separate mod. You might have noticed, that I'm not a big fan of the complete big CC mod. But it has a lot of "goodies", also for me; these maps are one of them. Thanks again @kralyerg for making them separate! I hope to see some more small, "CC splitted" mods. :)

I choose a map with very little buildable area: CC marsh, small (267453688, if someone want to know). I'm not sure, if it's the right map, if I want to test a lot of mods; there might be too little space to build all I want, but I want to really fill a map again; push it to the limit of what is possible.

The name of my new town is Bechtelsveiw. I've played 9 years. I'll show you some pictures and tell a little about my decisions.

First picture.
My first screenshot shows the settlement after one year. You can see at the map, that there isn't much land to build on. Building materials will be a problem. There's no iron close and only one spot (up in the left corner) where you can build a forester. I will have to trade for a lot of building materials and try to "save" as much as possible at the beginning. The basic support with food will bring less problem, but my people will have to eat a lot of fish, if they like it or not!  :-\

I started to build the smallest workshop and produced 8 fishing gear, 8 hunting gear and some baskets for the start. You can see 2 small fisher, the (at the moment) closed hunting spots and maybe if you look carefully an acorn gatherer. From time to time, when I see a deer in one of the small hunting circles, I assign a hunter. The small, very cheap workshop is great at the beginning. It doesn't work fast but along with this special gear, it can produce iron tools and hide coats.

The people will have to make do with tents at the beginning. I want the settlement to grow as fast as I can, so no homes for less than 5 people. I don't want to build any vanilla wood houses, so the only options for the start are the larger wooden tents. I find it a little bit of pity, that most of your very nice houses are for only 4 (some even 3 people) @Discrepancy. I know; a settlement grows also with 4-person-houses and you also have the possibility to micromanage to get a fast growth, but as long as there is a possibility to build (not vanilla) homes for 5 people, I will do this: tents at the beginning, town houses later.

As in most of my games, the school was one of the first buildings.

Second picture
Year 7. I've expanded my settlement up to the forest in north west and just built my first real house (and a lot of other things you may see on this picture)! :)

I wanted to build 2 wagon vendors; one that you can see in the center of the town and one for the people up in the north west. I've always liked them very much. But now I couldn't understand how to get the wagon parts. It says that the workshop can construct them, the smallest can't. I built a larger, it couldn't make it either. It took some time until I saw, that I had the wrong loading order of the mods. Wagon vendor above production!

Iron was the biggest problem. After I've "picked" everything I could reach, I thought of building long bridges to the south. I looked at locations and tried the cheapest possibilities, but it would have needed 100s of logs, that I don't have. I don't like mines (and quarries) but I realized, that it wouldn't be possible to develop the settlement, the way I wanted without them. So I decided to make a small "cheat"; load Kids tiny mod. Actually; it's one of my favourites. It's not really a cheat mod, you don't get "something for nothing" but it has some very nice things, that saves a lot of building material and work: In this game I have used the tiny mine, quarry, town hall and the gardener.

Third picture
Year 9. This is where I stopped yesterday. The buildable area is rare. Enough logs is the biggest problem. It's going to be a dense settlement. Efficient use of the land is priority, nevertheless I will try to make it look as good as I can. I don't have the skill; the eye for beauty and details, that some of you have, but I will try my best to make a dense, nice settlement. Your buildings @Discrepancy give me the best opportunity!

NILLA,have we grown so big we need text files attached to the mods to tell us what they contain and a preferred mod order?? i have sometimes had to go back thru websites looking info up when weeding older mods.we could get ABANDONED to make us a list,she does have all the notes.lol
i do hope CC gives you all the other starts like the forts and the shipwreck.

Yes, @brads3; I think, that we sometimes have to go back to the description of the mod, maybe not attached files but to the download page. I think we have to live with that, if we want, that the modders work with development of their mods. It's a small effort compared to their work! Of cause, we can chose to use the big mods to avoid this, but I happen to like the modular system, where I can choose the mods I like. A little effort to get the mods in the "right" order doesn't matter.

Just a few pictures from my settlement from year 14-15, closing in on 100 inhabitants. The starting spot has a town look; buildings dense together, a lot of townhouses. The people in the "countryside" still have to make do with the tents. You can see that the log problems are solved: I got some orchard seeds; first peacan, then the more useful plums. I grow orchards primary to get logs. I let them grow, harvest the nuts/fruit once or twice, then I cut them for the logs. I find these dense orchards a bit overpowered; one farmer just harvested more than 2000 plums at the largest one.  :-\

As you can see on my third picture, I love to play with the jetty parts. This is the perfect map! I am looking forward on the houses.

I think @brads3 is right, I do need to include a text file with some of my mods regarding load orders and what is included/changed in them.

With the new move to split mods up, we sometimes have to be careful of shared resources, to myself this has proven a headache, hence the reason why the next iterations of my mods will change the way many of my resources are handled.
The mod DS Wagon Vendor does require to be loaded over the DSSV: Production mod because it alters the 'Village Workshop' to produce the wagon parts.
When I was updating this mod the other week I debated on whether to make the new resource 'Wagon Parts' or not, I decided I would as I see the markets as more a specialty market in that they can be built on roads and also constructed and removed faster than normal markets - also there will be some Wagon Homes eventually.

The new upcoming release of DS Jetty & Bridge will only include 1 new resource: 'RawMaterialMollusc.rsc' gone will be the 'Mussel', 'Clam', 'Snail' as well as the Fishmonger and all the range of different fish. One day I will handle these in a separate single mod.

The next release of DSSV: Production I have made the dense orchard even more likely to suffer & spread disease, though this won't effect the harvest, nor change anything if played with disasters off.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 19, 2017, 10:56:03 PM
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When I was updating this mod the other week I debated on whether to make the new resource 'Wagon Parts' or not, I decided I would as I see the markets as more a specialty market in that they can be built on roads and also constructed and removed faster than normal markets - also there will be some Wagon Homes eventually.
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read, read, nod, nod, WHAT NOW?  (excited), did you say "Wagon Homes" waaahay now!  Sweet beats!  :)

Very excited @Discrepancy ;)

I'm not sure, that you'll need an extra textfile, as long as you write those things in the description on the mod load page. Of cause the text has to be upgraded, if the mod is upgraded. That will do for me. I find it easier, if I need more information to go there, than to look for an extra textfile somewhere.

As i said; I've always liked the wagon vendors, since the first version. Wagon homes, I agree with Query; looking forward on that! It's no big thing, if you use wagon parts or the basic materials; you only need 2 for each wagon, they are easy to build in a small building you can use for other things, you need more of, as well. It's interesting to introduce more "building materials" than logs, iron and stones. I have one question to this. I haven't found any wagon vendor that carries textiles. Is this intentional?

And please, @Discrepancy; don't take away the fishmonger. I would miss it very much! It's a really nice building, perfect for the shoreline. OK, it does need a little "work". As it is now; the output is too high. It would need an input or a reduced output. To me the number of the different kind of fish is too large as well. But I know, that's a matter of taste and playstyle. Some people can't have diversity enough, while some of us rather prefere shorter lists in the trading ports and inventories. I wondered about the snails etc. I found no building where they could be caught. I thought you planned something. But if you take them away, don't forget to change the recipes in your kitchen. (I have some thoughts about the balancing of the kitchen, but I haven't run it long enough to write about it, yet)

If you want to take away buildings from the jetties, I wouldn't miss the well for firefighting. It has no use there (unless you want another idling spot  :-\). People use water from the lake or river, if there's a fire. As it is now, the chopper on the jetty also has a limited use. It need to be located close to stockpiles or storage for logs and firewood. I haven't found such a storage for the jetty.

I'm experimenting with the trading ports on the jetty; how they work and can be located. I have a couple of things you could look into. I'm sure you know many of them but I'll  write down, what I've found anyway:

- People walk under the water instead of on the trading port on some parts
- No merchant bring animals to your ports.
- You can't put any canvas into the port (and a few other things I don't really want to sell but tested, like fishing and hunting gear)
- The merchant bring a secret good, worth 10, (second picture)
- You can build the port in ways, that no merchant arrive to it. I am experimenting with different ways of building it. The merchant on the first picture, just passed without visiting the port (red circle). Before I closed the jetty (blue circle) he passed under the fishmonger (green circle) but he refuses to arrive now. The same, as I replace a part of the jetty with a bridge (blue circle on the second picture); no merchant. I will continue these experiments and tell you more. I have some ideas of what I want to test.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up about the jetty well.
You are right, they will go and get the water from river or lake.... but, from what I've observed with playing before with CC docks, if you are built out in the middle of a lake and a fire starts - the people won't go to the nearest exposed water spot, but to the nearest shoreline, which can be quite a distance away. So in this instance, the well is necessary :)

Fishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place? still unsure.

Yes new building, where the Molluscs will be farmed and gathered at a Jetty Mollusc Farm. There are also a few other new buildings.
I'm halfway through re-writing all the code and have just finished adding AO to the last of the jetty pieces. I should have the new version up within a couple of weeks if RL keeps calm.

@Discrepancy , wagon homes?  That sounds like my gypsy wagon camp in the making  :)  the new wagon vendors look great.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 20, 2017, 04:09:07 AM
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Fishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place? still unsure.

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I like that idea of the drying place, it's on my favourite things list :)  (you can blame Vikings for that ;) )

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 20, 2017, 04:09:07 AMFishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place?

Yeah, drying, salting... any kind of processing would be welcome  :)


As for the many different types of fish... I tried to sort them, according to their value, sell all that are worth 2+ and have the rest eaten by my pop... but, yeah... the micro managing is quite tedious  :P

I would like some processing like drying and salting of fish on the jetty, too.

I made some more experimenting with jetty/bridges/merchants. I can't say I understand how it work. Maybe someone else can.

First picture.

Before I demolished the storage (blue) no merchant arrives to this port (red).

Second picture

Here is a drawbridge. Merchants arrive to the port, you can see the foot print from.

Third picture

This drawbridge works different. No merchant passes beneath it. Normally they use the path where the bridge is. As I closed the entrance to the port by building jetty parts, where the merchant is on this picture, no merchant arrived to the ports in my harbour area.

Can anyone explain the difference?

If anyone try similar experiments, you have to be a bit patient. The first merchant to each port that arrives after you have "closed the access" can pass, even ½ year after the bridges or jetties are built. The same if you demolish something and open the harbour again. It takes one merchant, until it works properly again.

I will continue these experiments and try to understand how it works. So far I see no logic.

That is just like my observations with this.

There doesn't seem to be a clear pattern with it either. All the code for them are written the same, but some will allow travel, while others not, and sometimes a new game will give different results ;( it has frustrated me for months.

in the new version I have included a way to build the jetties/bridges like normal bridges (drag, drop and build) this will at least allow players to build them across streams & rivers and should not influence traders.
I'm also making some more visual alternates, and the drawbridges will have 'Closed' variant, which can have a once off upgrade to 'Open'.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 21, 2017, 10:22:27 PMThere doesn't seem to be a clear pattern with it either.

No, there isn't...  :(

I have experimented a lot with this, mainly trying to "break" the paths - mostly unsuccessful, in 99% all my (DS) ports, bridges etc. work just fine, even the diagonals... the few I did manage to break, and many (non-'scientific') observations of other's attemps (on different forums) are that in most cases they seem to dislike -

* certain terrain features - on a (properly river-connected) lake that is "hidden" behind a sharp corner or a peninsula (so the boat has no clear "line of sight" to the port)... or those low landbridges that are sometimes ignored, sometimes not...

* multiple connected lakes - again starting with a properly river-connected lake that has more lakes connected (no visible land-bridges), the farther the lake the higher the probability of not being seen...

like the marsh-map Nilla shows - that type seems to be really hard on traders, apparently they dislike it when you build a bridge across a previously travelled path, even if it is far away from the main river - meaning a bridge not across the main river but somewhere else on the map, like across a lake or so... weird, but yeah...

* ports that are cramped (no offense meant) or tightly packed with other structures and / or built at odd angles (relative to the shoreline) - I always try to build ports along a waterway (like the water flows, as opposed to angled or perpendicular), with a bit of space before and after the actual landing space, avoiding other structures to jut out into the waterway, or building a port "around the corner", or protruding structures immediately across the port, narrowing the waterway to just 1 or two tiles (that sometimes gives me problems even in vanilla)...


My impression is that it's not the Jetty or bridge code, but messy terrain and pathing errors... that probably get compounded, the more we try to build out of the vanilla scope.

My way - since I don't want to forego modular and diagonal bridges - make a save, build the port or bridge(s) and observe for at least two successive boats before committing to the new structure... repeat when building additional ones. Not ideal, and you may lose a year or two... but hey  :D

I think, it's a good idea to make your very nice looking, bridges buildable as a "normal bridge". Thank you, @Discrepancy!

I can agree with most of your observations @Paeng. As long as there's just a river, or you're only building trading ports on the river, not in lakes, there will be no problem. I'm also sure, it has nothing to do with the mods themselves. You can have these problems in a pure vanilla game as well.

I've also found out, why the first draw bridge seemed to work, without blocking the passage for the merchant. It was a bit stupid of me not to see. It's not really a bridge. People can't pass, because it has no proper "landing" on one side. As I built one, the merchants don't visit that port anymore. (First picture) Now it seems more logical to me: On a map like this with a lot of lakes, you can't "block" the access to a port with jetty parts and jetty bridges, if you want merchants to arrive. As soon as people can pass, no merchant will!

In this game, it doesn't matter much. I have more ports, than I need. It might even be a trick to make the merchants arrive more seldom! Have one cheap piece somewhere, that you can demolish, if you want the merchants to arrive. When you've bought enough of what you wanted, rebuild it and let them pass without disturbing you!  :-\ :P

These jetty/merchant experiments take time. I have to wait for a few merchants to see the result. In that time I had a lot of time to develop the town and test some buildings. I'll show you a few impressions and menus. The second picture shows more or less the whole prosperous town in the year 32: 367 inhabitans living on a small space. The third picture is a small impression from the original city center; not much free space there!  :-\ I find your mods are really nice @Discrepancy! Even the way I build; too dense, no decorations at all; the town looks good!  :) I have one question to you @Discrepancy and to you @embx61. I'm testing both of your bakeries. But why do you need different kind of bakers?

The fourth picture shows another similar impression from a smaller center. It also shows my inventory. This town lives on trade. I have to buy all food categories except proteins, I have a lot of fish, that I also sell together with a few other things. I`ve cut in the content in my ports. I don't really want to sell gathering baskets. I had too many and wanted to test, if they can be loaded into the port. You can see; they can't. Same thing with candles. I buy (order) flour, plums, onions, beans, pumpkins (so I can run the village kitchen) and logs. I also buy a few iron, coal and stones.

@Nilla,

I just loaded DS Village Production and looked at the professions in the modlist rollout in the mod list.

It seems that @Discrepancy have his professions with DS in front of it so it says DSProfession _baker.crs.

That is why there are also 2 millers.

just profession _baker.crs will share the professions with other mods and the icons each modder have made for the profession(s) will be used by the mod what is highest in the mod list.

Discrepancy have the rawmaterials (No DS in front of it) all good so they share it with other mods so I suspect it is a oversight with the professions.

Thank you @embx61 for looking. I hope you will change this @Discrepancy. If you use a lot of mods, the profession list is long enough, without having the same profession twice. Generally, I think all you modders ought to look at @RedKetchup and how he deals with new professions; thinking two or three times, before introducing a new profession and if possible use an existing one for your new mods.

I don't know, what has happened to me. Since I started this game, I don't think I've written once about balancing! I must be sick!  ;) :-\

So I will catch up and only write about balancing this time! Just a warning to everyone, who isn't interested. This will be long! Stop read now!

I will write a bit about every profession, I've tried so far. First, I will explain, what I mean, when I'm talking about balancing and what I mean, with the words I'm using. This is my opinion based on my way of playing. The numbers comes from this game. When I compare numbers, it's always for one worker.

Reasonable - That's what I like all production to be. A reasonable average annual production for a food producer is about 500 (if it uses an input, of cause the output has to be reduced with it), a bit less, (but not less than 200) if it's cheap, small or maybe also for an intermediate product in a production chain, a bit more, if it needs a lot of space, or have a complicated chain (but not more than 1000). Similar for other buildings; a range between 200 and 1000 as annual profit is reasonable.

Overpowered - The production is too high, related to the circumstances.

Valueless - The profit of this building is too low. It can be a a too low productivity or a too high input related to the output. It mustn't be a loss, but if a worker doesn't at least "earn" his own living, I don't see much use of a production building.

Of cause, there might be exceptions. But in such a case, I want it to understand the reasons. (not necessarily agree on them) .

The buildings are (almost) all from @Discrepancy (DS), only a few from @embx61 and one from @RedKetchup .

Gatherers (DS)
I like the idea of the small basket gatherers. If you put the "normal" on a perfect spot, he might pick very much food the first year (>1000) but it will be reduced to a reasonable level (~400) the folloving years. The acorn gatherer is overpowered. I've noted up to 1155 acorns annual. The normal gatherer buildings, could be built with different large active area. Not a bad idea. I use the medium. It looks like it collects less than a vanilla gatherer, I'm not sure, it might just be the location on this map. The output is a bit low for that large area, but still in a reasonable range.

Fisher (DS)
There are several different fisher. I haven't built the big fisher, yet. It has a huge influence area, especially for this small map, but I will build one. It looks great! If you place the jetty/bridge fisher good, they catch a lot of fish; up to 1000, the small  waterside fisher less (343-688). I don't have more than 1 fisher in any jetty spot (yet? have more fish than I need presently) with 2 fisher in each, the output for each will most likely be reduced, the same if the active area is "disturbed", so the average value may be 600-700. You say, you use vanilla values for the fisher, @Discrepancy. You can build them on the jetties with a very good influence area, that gives a high output; it's slightly overpowered. But on the other hand, there might be a reason to leave it that way. A "jetty society" like this lives on fishing, trading fish for other food. Of cause, they are good at it.

Water pump (DS, embx, RK)
I have compared the water pumps/wells from you guys. The annual production is very different. DS:160-176, embx: 304-368, RK: 464-608. I find it problematic, when buildings, doing the same thing, have such a different output. It can't be explained in used space or how expensive they are; contrary DS waterpump is the largest and most expensive, RK well is the smallest. For a simple product like this, I find a production of about 400 reasonable. The look of your pump is great @Discrepancy; a good decoration, but it's quite valueless as a production building.

Beeshelter (DS)
I've only used the version where you can choose the output. I see no use in making anything except normal honey. Why are the other products so much less worth? Honey: 480-576, wax: ~300, comb: ~50 worth 3=150, jelly: ~18 worth 8=144. I can see the problem: It makes sense, that the production is low; a bee hive doesn't produce that much of these things but unless you have very special reason to use these other products, I see no value.

Windmills (DS,embx)
I must confess, I haven't built any of these but I will write a little about them anyway. I like the look of both but the reason, I didn't build any is, that they are totally valueless! They even destroy food; making 14 flour from 20 grain. Why would anyone want to use a mill like that? I know, it's the CC values and as I've said, as I talked about water; it's a problem when, buildings doing the same thing, have different "numbers" but there are outher mills out there, that make more sense. Why use these numbers?

Hunters (DS)
The "normal" hunter seems to have vanilla value; no reason to change that (even if it's quite overpowered if you succeed in selling all the meat, but the output is low, if you use it yourself). The small hunter using hunting gear makes fun to use at the beginning, if you see some deer in his circle. If you leave one, hunting all the time, he doesn't get many deer but it's good and reasonable.

Kitchen (DS)
This is a very good idea. In a Banished society, of cause there's a community kitchen, where people can grab a cooked meal. There are two different; one for gruel and one for more "exclusive"meals. I like the look of both. They look perfect in the surroundings, but I have one problem: None of them increase the amount of food, instead the value. Unfortunately the Banni doesn't care, if he eats one normal fish, worth 1 or one delicious Fishermans Catch, worth 7. I've demolished the gruel kitchen. I only have acorns and it makes no sense making gruel from them. I've kept the large one, exporting the products. Really, it's quite weird. A society like this would never have exported cooked food, but it's the only thing, that make sense. (a profit of around 950 if everything gets to the ports, that will hardly be the case, but the profit is still in a reasonable range) But I would very much like, that these buildings made sense for the Bannis. They are too good, to be for export and decoration only! Why don't you make something like the bakery? Not 3 beans, 3 pumpkins, 3 onions and 1 firewood to make 12 stew worth 5 like now, instead 30-40 stew worth one? (12*5=60 would be too much).

Bakery (DS,embx)
I've only produced bread and some bannocks, no cakes or pies yet. It's a bit more complicated, when you have to import the ingredients, but I will later. The "recipes" and production numbers are different comparing the both bakeries. In this case, it doesn't matter as much, as by the more simple products, like water and flour. Production numbers: DS Bakery: bannocks ~500-> 375 (reduced with the input) bread ~1000-> 650. Both are reasonable but why so much more profitable to make bread? embx Old Bakery: bread ~2000 -> 1200. This bakery is larger than the DS building, so I wouldn't mind a bit higher production but this is overpowered, especially when you can use 2 bakers. I had to send one home, since I was "swimming" in bread and saw that the production in the bakery was over 4000.

This is more than enough. I will write about the other buildings some other time. I hope, I wasn't all too negative. I do appreciate your work. Despite all these negative things I write, I like your mods! I don't expect everything to be changed to my liking, it's only my opinion; a little something to think about.

a lot to think about @Nilla , thanks for all the production information  :)

to bad we can't write a mod to teach the program how to read. this way it would set the menu with less tags and not overly generic the jobs.say xxxfisherrman=fisherman, ABC mllworker=millworker . there is a huge list to the menu. i should change to a builder and labor menu but i like to see how many farmers and other food workers i have. the longer i run a map the more those numbers do matter.
  better yet if the menu organized the list by category: food workers,city service,miners,production-brick,lumber,candles,etc

Thanks @Nilla for the feedback regarding some of my mods.

The windmill and Bakery are old mods. The windmill was my first mod for Banished and just took CC numbers for flour without any thinking about it ,and if I remember right I asked for feedback about production numbers for the bakery and never got any feedback on the values. I will go over the numbers for both and let the bakery using water too as it is realistic in bread making.
I guess the water well is about right? It gave more water at release but turned it down after feedback the output was too high.
That is the dilemma us modders face. Some want high outputs and some want lower outputs.

The issue with same buildings using the same input/output raw materials from different mods will always be tricky to balance.
The building highest in the modlist will 'win' and those numbers are taken if I am not mistaken.

At least I did a test with RedKetchups Water Tower and my Water Well and the values changed to the values which mod was highest in the modlist.
I also did that test with saltworks and Red's saltmine and the values changed to the mods values which was higher in the modlist.

That is the reason RedKetchup have his water as NMWater as the output as the Fountain Mod water output was very high and so to avoid this. CC, Discrepancy, an me use NMWater as well.

And don't feel bad about your feedback. It is feedback as this what make us modders go for better values and stuff :)






 

Love the feedback, not negative at all :)

Gatherers:
Acorn Gatherer is a bit too high I agree, it has a constant cost of Gathering Baskets, but not enough. I will lower the output slightly and increase worktime in next release of DSSV:Production.
The next release will also see the other forest food gatherers and gather with basket also work better with Natural Diversity mod.

Fisher:
The Village Fishing Dock use exactly the same production and radius as vanilla. I had a request to possibly make this an upgrade model for higher production, so I am toying with the idea of having a simple dock (with less output) that will upgrade to this for the higher production and to utilise the Fishing Gear resource as a cost. I am still adjusting many of the radius' for all my fishing spots trying to get a good balanced output. Thanks for your thoughts.

Water Pump:
I realise mine is the biggest water pump, and the slowest now :)
It will be increased slightly to about embx61's well output of about 300-350. It will also have an upgrade for an even faster production - this will be needed one day when I make my distillery.

Bee Shelter:
Comb Honey and Royal Jelly aren't really important to have, but offer a few other resources that some like :) myself included. I did keep the likelihood of these low as in RL. The Royal Jelly can only be produced by an Educated worker also. These I'm not going to change, I like it.
Beeswax numbers are the same as in CC, but my apiary works slower with smaller footprint. Candles will be included in a mine cost for possible next release.

Hunters:
The Hunt with Hunting Gear will be changed to allow immediate demolish from UI, slightly larger footprint and no kill limit. Otherwise it requires too much micro-managing I find.

Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.
I did always find the grain-flour-bakery chain in CC a bit strange, but nonetheless I still copied their production numbers! well, WOB is my banished home, so I will alter this in the next release to something that makes a small profit in mill, and larger profit in bakery. The higher bread production compared to the bannocks is just because it still is using the same values as CC.



The professions I will also change, I didn't realise it was doing this. So yes an oversight on my behalf. Thanks @Nilla & @embx61 .

I'm trying to keep my professions list down. I could do something like RK has with the generic 'Worker' or try to utilise other professions more.
The water pump already uses the Gatherer profession to gather the water.
I might remove the 'Cook' from the kitchens and just have that as a 'Baker' also.
The Mill could be operated by a Farmer?
Bee Shelters could be Gatherers also.


@brads3 , we can change the way the professions list is organised by altering the sort priority number in the code. I guess it would be possible to make an override professions mod to do this. If you can make a list of all the professions, and in the order you think, I will see if it works.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 23, 2017, 04:23:46 PM
I'm trying to keep my professions list down. I could do something like RK has with the generic 'Worker' or try to utilise other professions more.
The water pump already uses the Gatherer profession to gather the water.
I might remove the 'Cook' from the kitchens and just have that as a 'Baker' also.
The Mill could be operated by a Farmer?
Bee Shelters could be Gatherers also.

sounds a very very great idea :)
this profession list is way too much long for nothing.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 23, 2017, 04:23:46 PM
Love the feedback, not negative at all :)

-----

Bee Shelter:
Comb Honey and Royal Jelly aren't really important to have, but offer a few other resources that some like :) myself included. I did keep the likelihood of these low as in RL. The Royal Jelly can only be produced by an Educated worker also. These I'm not going to change, I like it.
Beeswax numbers are the same as in CC, but my apiary works slower with smaller footprint. Candles will be included in a mine cost for possible next release.

Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.
I did always find the grain-flour-bakery chain in CC a bit strange, but nonetheless I still copied their production numbers! well, WOB is my banished home, so I will alter this in the next release to something that makes a small profit in mill, and larger profit in bakery. The higher bread production compared to the bannocks is just because it still is using the same values as CC.

@brads3 , we can change the way the professions list is organised by altering the sort priority number in the code. I guess it would be possible to make an override professions mod to do this. If you can make a list of all the professions, and in the order you think, I will see if it works.

Just had a couple of thoughts, after reading what @Nilla wrote, and what I saw in my game yesterday.

Bees - so, that explains that lack of Jelly.  I always enjoyed the jelly as an added health option, after all it's been known for centuries that bee goodness is good :)  But, I didn't have an educated worker assigned.  :(

Kitchen - yes, I found that I was only able to use 3 recipe out of all 3 kitchens, in fact I had to demolish the 2 I couldn't use as I saw no need to keep them when I simply didn't have the ingredients.  I rarely get a map that has a grain at the start, and Tany's New Flora doesn't work with other start conditions currently (until MM gets updated, or people work Tany's items into their start options).

I was however able to make Hunters Stew, and it was good :)  Always sold out at the stalls!!
I could have made the mushroom based recipes, but I didn't ever have enough mushrooms.

If you are removing the multi-fish meals, can you please consider put in a protein recipe based on the Vanilla protein options.  Beef, chicken, mutton, venison, fish, eggs, paired with the vanilla gatherers items.

Village Kitchen
Eggs:  ( @RedKetchup has a very nice omelette) Eggs + Onion + Firewood = Omelette with Shallots
Protein + Onions etc - like the Hunters Stew, but with the different proteins

Village Bakery:  Flour (some form of acorn flour?? or wild oat) + Eggs + Berries = Custard Tart

Additional "Kitchen" - Camp Kitchen, a smaller version of the kitchen, and it shares a couple of recipes from each:
Gruel / Bakery & Village Kitchen, with additional camp oven style recipes:  Damper; Blueberry Pie (or Porridge) with Wild Oats & Acorns.

I will probably add this comment to the actual mod thread, if you would prefer. 
But, given it came up here, sorry I jacked your thread @Nilla :D

----
Re the professions:  I don't mind so much new ones, it's the ones where it's the same name - but there are 2 of them.
There is a CC professions list, and I have most mods so I can screenshot the profession screen for use, if someone was to create an override mod - just means it needs to be updated as new professions are released.    (As for the order, I would say alphabetical, except for the core starter professions maybe?  Definitely builder near the top!!, but certainly alphabetical)

Ok, I think I'm done.  Sorry :(

Yeah, my water well using a worker too.

Some professions are not bad though to have a different name because it was and is a skill to be a baker or a miller.

But easy stuff like getting water from a well, or sand from the beach, etc can be done by a regular laborer (Worker).

I maybe make my tanner a leatherworker too or the other way around to save a profession and gather Brine from a Brine Well to produce salt can be done by a worker too.

ohh no no no. the game would have to be able to read and google the terms itself.lmao with so many mods and different jobs aded. i guess it would only have to read the print lines in the code and total them all together. seriously? hmm laborers,builders then a food group;farmers,hunters ,gatherers,fishermen, it is already flawed the rice workers in CC are dock workers. the shoreman finds frogs,turtles ,and clay or sand......
   after that the list is debatable. essentials would be blacksmiths,taliors,firewood cutters.
   seriously if it was a quick easy mod and possible i would wish for the laborers,builders, and the food producers. that would be enough for a menu. most of us i think build towns with a tailor and BS in them. i use the TH to know how my clothing and tools are.its a good reference to what item is stocked more than another.what is overstocked can be processed or traded. but don't get crazy and do lots of work.

i agree EMBx, it isn't that the other skilled laborers aren't needed. the problem is the way the game program says we have 5 millers and 4 bakers,etc.it doesn't group all the food proccessors into 1. it can't figure that all bakers are bakers it lists them separately.

@brads3

The game put all the bakers together as one baker if profession _baker is used in the code.

It was a oversight by @Discrepancy that he had DS in front of it and that's why there where two bakers and millers in Nilla's game.

It works the same with raw Materials. If the names are the same the game will just use one.

Here is my village kitchen set up.
In front you can see that I have 2 food stalls (to gather the ingredients that I need)
And behind it are some beehives from Kid's Work Place mod
To the front, right, is Necora's hospital and further right is the housing for the workers in there.
I have also included a Food Wagon, and 2 of Red's horses in there.

The red markouts, are terraforming, the whole area was overgrown with trees I couldn't get a clear shot of any of the buildings and I had to clear it all out. :)

This was on a map pre-Embx markets :)

tell the game that not me EMBX.lol. maybe the game can't translate languages right. maybe it translates as it prints to the screen not before.5 different languages=5tags. who knows

Brads

The C++ source code have functions and procedures where modders can tie into. I always call them hooks.

So if a modder makes a profession Baker the game compiles it into profession _baker.

All the string tables, sprite sheets, etc. are linked to the profession _baker object.

That is why the game can use different languages if the modders have the string tables available.

So the game sees a baker and find all the files attached to it like the string tables, what icon to load and so on.
If it find another baker from another Mod it uses the bakers stringtables, spritesheets etc. from the mod what is highest in the Modlist as long as the compiled object have the same name.

If you look at Nilla's screenshot you see the two bakers have each their own Icon, they also will have their own text, etc.

profession _baker is a object but so is DSprofession _baker or profession _EBbaker but because the names are different the game will load them all separate and so we'll see two or even three bakers as the object names are not the same.

That is why we modders try to be as compatible as possible and use the same names.

That is it about in a nutshell :)

Quote from: embx61 on April 23, 2017, 01:19:59 PM
That is the dilemma us modders face. Some want high outputs and some want lower outputs.

I'm well aware of that!  :D
That's why I always try to point out, that my comments are my opinion, not more, not less! I just wish, that every modder had some kind of "policy" some kind of "rule of thumbs" for him/herself, when it comes to production numbers. Like my "reasonable" range, not necessarily the same as mine. But I can also understand, that it's not easy to get the output you want, even if you have such a "policy".

Quote from: embx61 on April 23, 2017, 01:19:59 PM
The issue with same buildings using the same input/output raw materials from different mods will always be tricky to balance.
The building highest in the modlist will 'win' and those numbers are taken if I am not mistaken.

At least I did a test with RedKetchups Water Tower and my Water Well and the values changed to the values which mod was highest in the modlist.
I also did that test with saltworks and Red's saltmine and the values changed to the mods values which was higher in the modlist.

That is the reason RedKetchup have his water as NMWater as the output as the Fountain Mod water output was very high and so to avoid this. CC, Discrepancy, an me use NMWater as well.

Yes, I thought it was like this. I have noticed it in some case, too. But how can the output of water be so different from your buildings, if you all use the same water? Sorry, I don't really have to understand that.  :-\

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 23, 2017, 04:23:46 PM
Fisher:
The Village Fishing Dock use exactly the same production and radius as vanilla. I had a request to possibly make this an upgrade model for higher production, so I am toying with the idea of having a simple dock (with less output) that will upgrade to this for the higher production and to utilise the Fishing Gear resource as a cost.

The Village fisher building actually has a larger radius than the vanilla, if you look at them together. I think it's because you can use more fishermen in it. The same with the other; watersidefisher (1) < bridgefisher(2) < jettyfisher (3) < vanilla fisher (4) < village fisher (5 or 6?).

I'm no fan of upgradable buildings. I've written about it before. It might make some sense in a case like this, with a fisher. At the beginning, you don't need so much fish. You want a cheap, fast to build place, to get food for a few people. Later, you'll need more. You can also afford a more expensive building (material/worktime). It will probably be a good idea to have it on the same spot as the first fisher; an upgrade can make sense. Although it's not much different from demolishing the initial building and make a new. In the case of upgrade, I think, you also need to keep the same area of the footprint. I don't really like, that a small initial fisher should be as big as a late game building. But if you make it upgradeable, please make it possible to build the upgradeable building without the detour of the initial! It´s not good late game, if you first had to build a small one and immediately have to upgrade it.

Also the water pump; Why not make it possible to use more worker in the existing pump, if you need more water, instead of an upgradeable version? It would also give this more expensive building an advantage over the wells.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 23, 2017, 04:23:46 PM
Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.

Slightly more food than consuming? Does that mean, that you want the cooked food to be a trading product with increased value?

The idea of taking away the grain-flag from acorn isn't a bad idea. As far as I know acorns are poisonous to eat as they are. They have to be processed somehow; I guess more, than other grain. I didn't realize the trade value 0. I've noticed however that the merchants only bring 1 acorn.

Quote from: embx61 on April 23, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
Some professions are not bad though to have a different name because it was and is a skill to be a baker or a miller.

But easy stuff like getting water from a well, or sand from the beach, etc can be done by a regular laborer (Worker).

I agree! That's why I wrote, "thinking two or three times, before introducing a new profession" and not: don't use any new professions.

Regarding professions and profession lists, I agree there are way too many (especially cc that I tried) but they are distinguishable.  I like Red's use of generic worker for odd jobs.  I for one would not like farmers doing anything but tending crop fields and orchards, also would not like to have gatherers overused for other jobs.  DS Banished UI Professions mod is very nice.  I would like it if the listings were in alphabetical order now that there are so many.

QuoteYes, I thought it was like this. I have noticed it in some case, too. But how can the output of water be so different from your buildings, if you all use the same water? Sorry, I don't really have to understand that. 

Even when our values in the Raw Materials files are the same also the work time and work required must be taken into account. Those are set in the building template file so are not shared between mods I think.

I think I have mine set at
float _workTime = 5.0;
int _workRequired = 20;

The lower the values the faster they work. For lots of stuff in Vanilla it is 4.0 - 10. but for mining I think it is 4.0 - 60.

Quote from: Nilla on April 24, 2017, 03:47:35 AMWhy not make it possible to use more worker in the existing pump, if you need more water, instead of an upgradeable version?

I always found that to be a good way to "naturally" upgrade buildings, specially larger ones - the infamous huge wood cutter with only one workspace comes to mind... of course there is always the worry that such an item becomes "abused", too overpowered for early game scenarios...  :(

* Although I also have no problem at all with upgradable buildings either... I think they have their place, if used in the right context...  :)

Quote from: embx61 on April 24, 2017, 05:19:51 AM
Even when our values in the Raw Materials files are the same also the work time and work required must be taken into account. Those are set in the building template file so are not shared between mods I think.

I think I have mine set at
float _workTime = 5.0;
int _workRequired = 20;

The lower the values the faster they work. For lots of stuff in Vanilla it is 4.0 - 10. but for mining I think it is 4.0 - 60.

Thank you for explaining. Does int _workRequired have an influence on how much/how fast something is produced or just how fast tools are worn out?

I want to continue my last thread and speak about the balancing of some more buildings I've tested.

Village fisher (DS)
This is the food producer I didn't had as I wrote last. I've built one now, just to test it. It looks great! I have more fish than I need, so I've only put one fisher in it. Despite the huge area (first picture), this one fisher catches less fish, than a small bridge fisher. But of cause, the building will probably give more fish, than the bridge, if it's full. I don't mind the output of 600, that's very reasonable. It's rather the small bridge, that's overpowered.

Now to the other production buildings.

Firewood yard, DS
Both versions are lovely. Perfect size, nice look. I find the vanilla chopper overpowered. This is worse. I haven't checked the production numbers a lot. I'm only using the wood for my houses and I have managed to support a 500 inhabitant town with only 2 of these small yards (in one of them 2 choppers work). They produce a lot; last year the single chopper made 1312, two chopper 1944. If you wanted to export firewood, you could support a large town with a few of them. (Trade profit 3,5 for each wood or 2,5 if the food merchant pays less for wood). In any case, I find it much too much.

Village forester, DS
Like all your buildings @Discrepancy, it looks good. I only have one on this map, and it's not a "perfect circle" but it seems to have vanilla values. The forester is one of the vanilla buildings, that I find, has a too low production.

Village workshops, DS
There are 3 different sizes. I have only built the two smaller. I see no use in this town for a bigger one, where you can use 2 blacksmiths. The smallest is perfect for the start, to make tools, hide coats, fishing-, hunting gear and baskets. It has a low production rate, but that's alright. I use it now from time to time to make hide coats from the leather from my only hunting lodge. The mid size produces more than enough baskets and wagon parts and before I had any coal for better tools, also iron tools. I have no production numbers, since I didn't run it constantly but the production seems quite high, at least for baskets.

Blacksmiths, DS
There are two different blacksmiths, both can use 2 workers, they have a little different size, the village blacksmith can produce iron, steel and hardened tools together with fishing- and hunting gear, the Crest Family Blacksmith the same except hunting gear. I only produce hardened tools. The Village Blacksmith use to produce a bit more, but I think, it's because of the better location. The production between 100 and 140 hardened tools each year for one blacksmith is reasonable.

Tailors, DS
I haven't build a village tailor, yet because I have too little leather and no sheep and I guess that it only makes vanilla clothing. Instead I make canvas coats in the weaving guild. You can put 2 tailors in the building, one produces about 200 coats or 300 canvas each year. I produce coats for my population and I also sell the surplus. The profit is too high; Canvas coats are worth 15, production cost only 4. That gives a profit of more than 2000 for one tailor. An annual production of 200 is also a bit more than a vanilla tailor can produce. 

I've also made some flags. I've also built a flag pole but I don't understand how I can put up a flag. In any case, flags would be a good trade product with a reasonable profit. I produce about 100 flags each year (trade profit 8,6 each). The problem is, that your trading ports doesn't load flags (like a lot of other things, like canvas, wax, candles, the leather products from @embx61......). I have just built a vanilla port, to get rid of all these things, my population can't use.

Candle maker, DS
I think you are using CC values for this building. That makes it quite uninteresting to produce candles, at least as long as there's no use for it in your village. (and even if it was, it would be better to buy candles, than to produce them). The production rate is low, same as the profit (not more than about 50 each year).

Salt and leather production, embx
The buildings look nice. They are quite large but I don't mind. Salt seems to be "flagged" together with coal. In this game it disturbed me a bit. I produce hardened tools and need a lot of coal. I buy some, but the merchants are not always that relable, so I've set the limit to 400 and when the stores get down, my miners start to work. It's a convenient way to play. When I produce salt, I can't do that anymore. It's no big problem and I'm not sure that another "flag" for salt, would be better. It seems to be the logical choice; minerals/ore. I just wanted to tell. Production numbers: salt 240-312, tannery: 50-60, trade profit 300-360, leatherwork: poaches ~130, saddles ~100, trade profit 130/260. Generally the production of ores and minerals are low in Banished, so the salt production is in a reasonable range. You can also use 2 workers, if you need more salt (maybe you could concider to increase it to more, if you really would need a lot). Also the profit for cured leather as an intermediate product, is good. But I find the end product ought to give a better profit. It's for export only, it's an endproduct of a chain, I find an annual profit of 500-1000 reasonable for such products.

Just some comment to the pictures

First picture

This is my town now; year 37, 566 inhabitants, everything under control. You can see, that the output of the large fisher is smaller than the small bridge fisher.

Second picture

Just a small thought. As I said, I build a flag pole to test how flags work (didn't found out how). But I also took a look at the other decorations. It would be nice to have a "ghosted" boat, to be able to be put in a position like I suggest here. You can also see my store; of cause in a settlement like this, a lot of fish!

@Nilla,

thank you for the feedback :)

Yes, Salt is flagged as Minerals and that use the flag CoalFuel with the Limit as Coal.
This is how the modders talked while I was absent with the Black liquid team on how to best use the 10 new limits from Luke so it would be as compatible as possible with different mods.

I agree with most of the flags/limits set and only have some reservations about Industrial Fuel as it only have 1 product attached to it so far, but on the other hand so does Iron, Stone and Logs in vanilla. But there are still two reserved limits what is not in use so far so I am completely fine with how the modders decided to set the Limits/Flags.

So if I change salt to another limit/flag then it screws with most other mods as I believe Kid, RedK, Nicora, BL, Discrepancy, using the same limits/flags as set at the modders meeting and kralyerg made the newlimit Resource files.

Yeah, some of my building can be quite large but I am not into 2x3 buildings, besides markets and small sheds. I have nothing against it but I worked in construction and it is just not real enough for me to live and/or work in a cigar box. LOL and to be honest, but this is of course personal, even with my bigger buildings I hardly fill out a medium or even a small map before I get bored and start another IF I play Banished that is :) . I personally think it is a bit of a trend lately to produce 3x4 or even smaller buildings as people seem to like them. If the trend keep going we probably end up with 1x1 buildings soon. LOL. Again, I have nothing against it but it is not my cup of tea and I would have a hard time creating those buildings because of the small size.

Some can argue it is just a game, and it is, but I try to be as much as possible with some real world scales and this is not a sneer to you as you clearly stated you did not mind the bigger buildings. :) I just explain why I make them my way but I will work on the salt works because it is indeed rather big for what it does. I think the other buildings are not that big (Besides the huge church) but again, that is personal.

I first designed the Salt works so there were open air salt pans (That why it is big) but scrapped it after more then halfway done because saltpans are only mostly used in dry climates with not much rain, and after some more research came with the idea to just use a brine well but was too lazy/bored to start all over with that building as I wanted to release the leatherworks chain what needed the salt.
I will probably use some of the buildings in the salt works and tie them more together to save some space.

As for work_required. kralyerg explained it one time on the forums but cannot find the post but it is how much they use the tool in a shift (work time) So if I understood it right it is 20 times using the tool to get 1 of the 5 done if it is set at 5.0 / 20. or it is the other way around but maybe someone else can chime in if I have that right or not. All I know is that the lower those values the faster they produce. That is why mining in Vanilla take quite some time because I think Luke has it set to 4.0 /60.

Again, thanks for the feedback and I hope you understand why I make the buildings as they are. :)

EDIT: Oops I forgot, I am glad that you like most of the production numbers for salt and leather products. I made it in such a way that uneducated workers would even lose some.
I can increase the end products Pouches and saddles a bit in the next build and allow the Salt works to have another worker or 2.

I also like to add that Banished, without a zoom hack, is already quite dull if it come to zoom in. The smaller the buildings and even less details are seen. I like to add at least some detail to my buildings, like extruding window frames,  posts, so calles gutter boards, and so on and if I make 2x3 buildings it won't show at all in the game because of the small size and are just a waste of poly's and time.

I worked on the salt works and decreased the size from 8x9 Including Road to 8x7 Including road.
That is 16 tiles saved.

I upload the newer version some later today if I have redone the AO maps.
I also changed profession from salt worker to just  a worker to save a profession.

Further added 1 more worker so that the salt works can employ up to 3 workers instead of 2 and got rid of the ground texture

Okay, I will try to slow the Arch Bridge Fishing Spot down. That is too much fish!

I will also slow the firewood yards down. I did notice this myself but kept forgetting to do so.

I'm not sure if I can speed up the forester. The only way we could get a larger production is by making a new 'DSNaturalResourceTree.rsc' and having the forester replant a faster growing species. But this would still require the old forest to be cut down firstly.

The Weaving Guild / Village Tailor - I did make the changes to slow down the canvas production before. It really is on par with making Wool Coats I think. I honestly think the vanilla tailor production is wrong in the first place. So if I am going to balance it, I think the vanilla production numbers need to change as they are also too profitable.

The decorative flags for the flag poles I didn't manage to get working last update and were causing a CTD. When I pick up DSSV: Production again I will get these working.

The upcoming DS Jetty & Bridge update I have made changes to allow all flags into the jetty trading posts.
I have also changed the boats to being 'ghosted' decorations.

@Discrepancy re the Bridge Fishing spot - I find it is very dependant on placement. 
In a spot where there is deeper water, (in the above shot there is at least 3/4 of fishing room) you can get up to that amount of fish - but, you place it over a stream, in the shallows, and a narrow fishing space and it doesn't produce anywhere near that much.

Same as the standard fisherman - it needs to be in the perfect spot to get over 100 per fisherman.

I wouldn't change the numbers up too much as looking at that screenshot, I would say location is everything!!
Currently the Bridge is right out into the lake, there is a huge section of open water, and it's the deeper water there.  Compared to the other fishing building.  (The bottom spot is partly in the shallows, but look how many free fishing tiles there are around it).

I thought given that the fishing spot was a bridge, and a small radius that it wouldn't be affected by location, but for me it really is dependant on it, and I have been known to terraform around it so I could boost the numbers as they were low.

@Nilla what do you get if you place the Bridge over a narrow stream, in a 2 water tile (4 across, 2 water & 2 banks) location, in the shallows?

I don't have Banished booted at the moment, but I can run a comparison over the weekend, if not then, possibly Monday - depends on how much gaming time I get this weekend.  :)

As I said, @embx61, I don't mind, that your buildings are larger than some others. You might have a point in that the details are better to see, if a building is a bit bigger. The only problem i see, is that it might look a bit weird, if you combine the smaller and larger buildings. But that's nothing you modders ought to bother about. Diversity is good. It's up to us players to use them in sensible way.

Quote from: QueryEverything on April 28, 2017, 07:40:38 AM

Same as the standard fisherman - it needs to be in the perfect spot to get over 100 per fisherman.
@Nilla what do you get if you place the Bridge over a narrow stream, in a 2 water tile (4 across, 2 water & 2 banks) location, in the shallows?

Of cause, the location is important for all normal fisher, that's part of the fun!100 fish? I never had that low production, not even at a very bad location. I haven't tested the bridge on a stream. I rarely use a stream for fishing, and on this map there are plenty of lakes, no problem to find a good spot. But I did test the small gear-fisher on a stream on my last game. It too is dependant on location. I noted production between 343 and 595, it was on a creek with much water. The output of fish is also very much dependent on the distance to a storage. The fishermen normally carries their catch to the stores themselves and in that time, they don't fish. Always build a storage next to a fisher and don't forget to look from time to time, that it's not full. And terraforming around a fisher? I don't think that it works.

Here´s a screenshot of the fisher on the stream. (picture in the midle) Don´t look at the number . It´s just started.   http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1621.msg30747#msg30747

@Nilla

I understood it was not a problem for you as my buildings are bigger :)
And you are right that we as modders try to be as compatible as possible but at the other hand still have our own "rules and ideas" for sizes, values, detailing, textures, etc.

It is a very good thing that we differ in our approaches and is the main reason we have such a lot of diversity in Banished while I can understand that some mods work better with certain other mods and not with others.

It is up to each player which mods will fit together or not.

I have uploaded the new version of the Saltworks :)
It is 16 tiles smaller and I allowed it to have 1 more worker so max 3 workers. I also changed the saltworker profession to just a worker.
You have to delete the old one in a save though or the game will pretty sure crash because I got rid of the ground plate too as I felt that players want to fill in the road tiles with their own choice :)

I am currently working on the bakery and leatherworker to adjust some of the values. The bakery will also make use of water in 2 of the 3 recipies.
I also change the leatherworker profession to be a tanner too as they are pretty much close related.

So that saves 2 professions :)