Author Topic: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more  (Read 1924 times)

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Offline Nilla

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I downloaded all new/reworked DS-mods yesterday and started a game. It was late and I had some problems finding a map, so I didn't really play, just started. I'm not very choosy in picking a map. Most maps are fine with me. But when I test new mods, I want all my people to be educated, no uneducated, that mess up the production numbers. Some mods have small schools, that could be built very fast, this one not. (At least I haven't found one). If you start on medium or easy, you have some building materials from the start, so a school with normal demand on material, can be built fast. But when I test mods, that contains a lot of buildings, I want to avoid vanilla buildings as far as possible. So I started my game on hard and was haunted by the 9-years old.  >:(  ;)

I have seen, that you can use a lot of builders to build the school fast like some other buildings, you want soon like the gatherer. I like that but still, the wood and stone must be collected, so it will hardly work anyway. I think it took 10 attempts. Even a map with only 3 children had a 9-year old. Finally, this map! I didn't even had to build the school the first I did. The oldest child was 6.   :D

I have some questions to you @Discrepancy:

You have your own versions of most buildings, but I haven't found a forester. Have I missed it or aren't there any? If you have none; why? It would be nice to have similar looking buildings in the woods. I started with a medium sized gatherer. (fit best to the vanilla forester) Normally I also build a fisher from the start for a basic supply on food, but the starting spot isn't directly at the river or a lake, so I built a apiary insted. That will support my people with the basic food. Now I can play with the other new things. :)

I've built a tent camp; with wooden tents. I haven't found anything about the heat economy. I can only see, that the small tens can be upgraded to leather tents with better heat economy. How are they compared to vanilla houses?

Of cause, I have to try these mini hunter/gatherer and I will also try the fisher as soon as I can. I like the idea. It's a development of @Tom Sawyerīs instant workplaces, but it cost a little to establish one. Good!

The radius of the hunter is very small, it's seldom a deer in a circle, but I have established 4 places and switch a hunter between them, when I see a deer. It's a thing you can do at the beginning, with few people, so I guess this is only something, that are primary useful right at the start. I can agree with what other people have said, that it's hard to find the wee workplace in the woods. But I can also agree with you @Discrepancy, that it's hard to make in another way, if we want it small. I use the big footprint of the vanilla market, to sea ch for the "red spot", when I want to find it. It works good.

I have just produced some baskets to test the different gatherers. It looks like they are consumed, if you want acorns but work "for ever" with the other resources. If I understand it right, the eternal gatherer need trees to find something, the acorn alternative can be put anywhere. I haven't tried it yet but it looks like the basket is broken after you've collected 55 acorns. That's very poor quality! Especially as the other gear seems to the most excellent work.  :-\ I have understood, that this is a test to see how it works with some tools that are consumed. The idea is interesting, I will say more when I've tested it.

The picture shows my settlement, not very big but itīs only been there for a little more than a year!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 05:22:57 AM by Nilla »

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2017, 09:34:40 AM »
glad to see you do this test blog,NILLA. it will give us a chance to see how the various buildings work.can we get some good close up pics of the different buildings?? thank you

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2017, 01:56:24 PM »
OK Brads. I've played another two years and have a couple of more buildings to show.

First picture shows my tent camp. It looks like 6 tents but it's actually 4 units. ??? (Single tent for 3 , double for 5 people). In the background you can see the school and one house. I wanted them to be a small unit, that's why they are built so close. In front we have a woodchopper, a small workshop and an apiary.

Second picture shows my forest. A pity, that there are no forester in the same style. The other buildings are lovely. And as far as I can see, they have vanilla values.

The third picture shows the Celtic round house and a barn. I find the house too big to be for a family of 4. But it's nice. Something very different from most other buildings.

I've also tested the different small gatherers, who use baskets. I don't see, why I should use the acorn gatherer. The other collected around 1000 food, in one year, without using more than 1 basket. The other consumed the other 4 baskets and collected only 220 food. The baskets aren't expensive, but it took all spring, so I don't think he will reach the same output as the other, even with more baskets.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2017, 03:38:45 PM »
i like those firepits. i take it they burn without a worker constantly feeding the fires? is there a decoratioon option to those or they are only available with the tents?

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 09:02:15 AM »
Decorations? Me? No! They belong to the tents. One family, one fire. I like them, too. :)

I have to reverse what I said yesterday.

Quote
I've also tested the different small gatherers, who use baskets. I don't see, why I should use the acorn gatherer. The other collected around 1000 food, in one year, without using more than 1 basket. The other consumed the other 4 baskets and collected only 220 food. The baskets aren't expensive, but it took all spring, so I don't think he will reach the same output as the other, even with more baskets

The small gatherer who collects the normal food, didn't pick that much wild food the foolowing years. It was only the first year. A year or two later, it's only around 400, what's quite reasonable. As I guessed, the lady in the basket on my picture didn't collect 1000 acorns, but 700, and that's very good. For this she needs 13 baskets, not an high input.

I also tested the small fisher, I built one on the stream, unfortunately in the wrong direction. It looks a bit funny, but he actually catches some fish. :) I want to compare this fisher on the small stream with a college on the river. These action circles by the fisher and gatherers are a bit confusing. The small fisher has an area, that stays when hiīs built. That implicates that it has an radius and that the fisher on the river will catch more, than the fisher on the stream. The jetty fisher, though has a circle on the footprint but it disappears, as the fisher is built. Does that mean, that it has no action area and that you can fill the surroundings with other buildings without losing productivity? The same thing with the small acorn gatherer. It has an area, as you set the footprint but none as it's "built".

The fishmonger isn't changed, as far as I can see. No input of fish. I might remember wrong, but it looks like the productivity is higher, than it was in the last version. Or maybe this one is only good located.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 10:41:38 AM by Nilla »

Online Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 01:29:55 AM »
Thanks for the excellent testing @Nilla ,

I am working on a forester for the set... originally the hunter was going to be the forester, but I changed my mind half way through making it. But there is another I've started on.

Also a Herbalist and Hospital are near completion for DSSV:Services.

I have also found the same with the small gatherer in testing - large fluctuations in productivity, I am not sure why it does this, the same seems to happen with the water pump, so maybe it is tied with the gatherer profession.

Yes the small fisher can be tricky to place, I included the extra empty tile to be placed close to the water - I think I wrote this in the toolbar tool-tip.

So far all of the fishing spots still use the vanilla code, so the radius is functional and if things are built into the area it should lower production.

The acorn gatherer isn't effected by the radius, I just added that so it would give the perception that it is ;)
but it is really just a production building like the blacksmith: it takes in one item (Gathering Baskets) & produces another (Acorns)
I like to think the cost associated is perhaps in the storage of the acorns. The gather puts them all in the basket then drops off at the nearest storage place, leaving them in the basket, as just dumping acorns into the barn could be quite dangerous underfoot :)   -- well that is my opinion on them consuming the baskets.

Fishmonger hasn't changed a lot, that is on my next to do updates, though yes the sorting/production should be a bit quicker. It should be consuming fish, I will have to see what is happening. I know the UI needs work.
The Fishmonger can be placed anywhere, it isn't dependent on anything except for the fish input and the workers.

School is too expensive? adds a challenge :)

I will put together something of the fuel usage of all the buildings - but that said, I just looked through the code and because the last build I re-wrote a lot of the code I had not updated it from vanilla stonehouse values. The plan though is for the tents to not be very economical in fuel usage at all - requiring fuel for most, if not all of the year. This will make stocking up on firewood early very important (as always).
That does bring up an issue with this game: we can make so many changes to make the start harder, but not so much later game.

The hunter I will give a larger radius, but like I have said on the mod forum page, I am still trying to make the work-sites more dependable on the specialized gear.

Thanks for testing & feedback.


There are no decorations of the campfires @brads3 , they are part of the tent housing. If I make decorative, they will not flame/burn unless a worker is assigned to them like RK's.


Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 04:13:39 AM »

I am working on a forester for the set... originally the hunter was going to be the forester, but I changed my mind half way through making it. But there is another I've started on.

Also a Herbalist and Hospital are near completion for DSSV:Services.

Nice to hear.:)

I have also found the same with the small gatherer in testing - large fluctuations in productivity, I am not sure why it does this, the same seems to happen with the water pump, so maybe it is tied with the gatherer profession.

I placed the gatherer in a dense forest, that was the reason for the high harvest the first year. When he had picked all the "old" food, new food doesn't grow that fast. My output was around 400 all following years, and didn't variate much. I find that a reasonable value, so there is no need to change anything here.

I built a water pump yesterday. It has only ran a few years but the output was very constant. It's quite low, just around 160. I don't know yet, where you can use water and how much, so I can't say, if I find it too low or good that way.

Yes the small fisher can be tricky to place, I included the extra empty tile to be placed close to the water - I think I wrote this in the toolbar tool-tip.

So far all of the fishing spots still use the vanilla code, so the radius is functional and if things are built into the area it should lower production.

The small fisher is alright. You may place it wrong the first time you use it, but you do that once or twice, then you know how to put it. It work in the wrong way and it's cheap to build new, so I see no need to change anything.

It's a small difference between the small fisher on the stream and the same fisher on the river. The output is quite high for such a small fisher; I noted values 434-595 on the stream and 528-688 on the river. The jetty fisher produces more; 835-910. I find that very high for one fisher, but I guess, that's the way it will be with vanilla values. Since you say the radius is important; I like to see the radius on the jetty fisher, after it's built. It disappears now.

The acorn gatherer isn't effected by the radius, I just added that so it would give the perception that it is ;)
but it is really just a production building like the blacksmith: it takes in one item (Gathering Baskets) & produces another (Acorns)
I like to think the cost associated is perhaps in the storage of the acorns. The gather puts them all in the basket then drops off at the nearest storage place, leaving them in the basket, as just dumping acorns into the barn could be quite dangerous underfoot :)   -- well that is my opinion on them consuming the baskets.

In fact, I don't mind the numbers of baskets. My criticism was more an attempt of irony.  :-\


Fishmonger hasn't changed a lot, that is on my next to do updates, though yes the sorting/production should be a bit quicker. It should be consuming fish, I will have to see what is happening. I know the UI needs work.
The Fishmonger can be placed anywhere, it isn't dependent on anything except for the fish input and the workers.

It needs in input. The way it is now, it produces too much compared to other food producers, more than 1000 with an average value around 2.

School is too expensive? adds a challenge :)

No, the school is not too expensive. I didn't mean that. It's similar to vanilla values.

I will put together something of the fuel usage of all the buildings - but that said, I just looked through the code and because the last build I re-wrote a lot of the code I had not updated it from vanilla stonehouse values. The plan though is for the tents to not be very economical in fuel usage at all - requiring fuel for most, if not all of the year. This will make stocking up on firewood early very important (as always).
That does bring up an issue with this game: we can make so many changes to make the start harder, but not so much later game.

That sounds good to me. It doesn't seem, like the tents need much fuel, rather less than a vanilla wood house.


The hunter I will give a larger radius, but like I have said on the mod forum page, I am still trying to make the work-sites more dependable on the specialized gear.

The way it is now, it doesn't need any changes. It's too cheap for a larger radius. I'm curious to see, if you find a way to use the gear.

Thank you for your work. It makes fun to play with. :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood, testing DS-mods
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 05:22:24 AM »
I was a way a few days and as I came back and looked into WOB, I was a bit overwhelmed from all what's written here, in these few days. Even if we're not so many people active on this page; those who are, are very productive. :)

Anyway I decided yesterday, that I want to start a new game. I still want to make mainly a "DS-town". It makes a lot of fun to play with the mods from @Discrepancy, but I also want to test some from, @embx61, the new version of @RedKetchupīs Garden utilities and I was very pleased, as I saw, that @kralyerg has published some of the CC maps as a separate mod. You might have noticed, that I'm not a big fan of the complete big CC mod. But it has a lot of "goodies", also for me; these maps are one of them. Thanks again @kralyerg for making them separate! I hope to see some more small, "CC splitted" mods. :)

I choose a map with very little buildable area: CC marsh, small (267453688, if someone want to know). I'm not sure, if it's the right map, if I want to test a lot of mods; there might be too little space to build all I want, but I want to really fill a map again; push it to the limit of what is possible.

The name of my new town is Bechtelsveiw. I've played 9 years. I'll show you some pictures and tell a little about my decisions.

First picture.
My first screenshot shows the settlement after one year. You can see at the map, that there isn't much land to build on. Building materials will be a problem. There's no iron close and only one spot (up in the left corner) where you can build a forester. I will have to trade for a lot of building materials and try to "save" as much as possible at the beginning. The basic support with food will bring less problem, but my people will have to eat a lot of fish, if they like it or not!  :-\

I started to build the smallest workshop and produced 8 fishing gear, 8 hunting gear and some baskets for the start. You can see 2 small fisher, the (at the moment) closed hunting spots and maybe if you look carefully an acorn gatherer. From time to time, when I see a deer in one of the small hunting circles, I assign a hunter. The small, very cheap workshop is great at the beginning. It doesn't work fast but along with this special gear, it can produce iron tools and hide coats.

The people will have to make do with tents at the beginning. I want the settlement to grow as fast as I can, so no homes for less than 5 people. I don't want to build any vanilla wood houses, so the only options for the start are the larger wooden tents. I find it a little bit of pity, that most of your very nice houses are for only 4 (some even 3 people) @Discrepancy. I know; a settlement grows also with 4-person-houses and you also have the possibility to micromanage to get a fast growth, but as long as there is a possibility to build (not vanilla) homes for 5 people, I will do this: tents at the beginning, town houses later.

As in most of my games, the school was one of the first buildings.

Second picture

Year 7. I've expanded my settlement up to the forest in north west and just built my first real house (and a lot of other things you may see on this picture)! :)

I wanted to build 2 wagon vendors; one that you can see in the center of the town and one for the people up in the north west. I've always liked them very much. But now I couldn't understand how to get the wagon parts. It says that the workshop can construct them, the smallest can't. I built a larger, it couldn't make it either. It took some time until I saw, that I had the wrong loading order of the mods. Wagon vendor above production!

Iron was the biggest problem. After I've "picked" everything I could reach, I thought of building long bridges to the south. I looked at locations and tried the cheapest possibilities, but it would have needed 100s of logs, that I don't have. I don't like mines (and quarries) but I realized, that it wouldn't be possible to develop the settlement, the way I wanted without them. So I decided to make a small "cheat"; load Kids tiny mod. Actually; it's one of my favourites. It's not really a cheat mod, you don't get "something for nothing" but it has some very nice things, that saves a lot of building material and work: In this game I have used the tiny mine, quarry, town hall and the gardener.

Third picture
Year 9. This is where I stopped yesterday. The buildable area is rare. Enough logs is the biggest problem. It's going to be a dense settlement. Efficient use of the land is priority, nevertheless I will try to make it look as good as I can. I don't have the skill; the eye for beauty and details, that some of you have, but I will try my best to make a dense, nice settlement. Your buildings @Discrepancy give me the best opportunity!


Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 08:49:34 AM »
NILLA,have we grown so big we need text files attached to the mods to tell us what they contain and a preferred mod order?? i have sometimes had to go back thru websites looking info up when weeding older mods.we could get ABANDONED to make us a list,she does have all the notes.lol
i do hope CC gives you all the other starts like the forts and the shipwreck.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 04:27:39 AM »
Yes, @brads3; I think, that we sometimes have to go back to the description of the mod, maybe not attached files but to the download page. I think we have to live with that, if we want, that the modders work with development of their mods. It's a small effort compared to their work! Of cause, we can chose to use the big mods to avoid this, but I happen to like the modular system, where I can choose the mods I like. A little effort to get the mods in the "right" order doesn't matter.

Just a few pictures from my settlement from year 14-15, closing in on 100 inhabitants. The starting spot has a town look; buildings dense together, a lot of townhouses. The people in the "countryside" still have to make do with the tents. You can see that the log problems are solved: I got some orchard seeds; first peacan, then the more useful plums. I grow orchards primary to get logs. I let them grow, harvest the nuts/fruit once or twice, then I cut them for the logs. I find these dense orchards a bit overpowered; one farmer just harvested more than 2000 plums at the largest one.  :-\

As you can see on my third picture, I love to play with the jetty parts. This is the perfect map! I am looking forward on the houses.


Online Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 10:56:03 PM »
I think @brads3 is right, I do need to include a text file with some of my mods regarding load orders and what is included/changed in them.

With the new move to split mods up, we sometimes have to be careful of shared resources, to myself this has proven a headache, hence the reason why the next iterations of my mods will change the way many of my resources are handled.
The mod DS Wagon Vendor does require to be loaded over the DSSV: Production mod because it alters the 'Village Workshop' to produce the wagon parts.
When I was updating this mod the other week I debated on whether to make the new resource 'Wagon Parts' or not, I decided I would as I see the markets as more a specialty market in that they can be built on roads and also constructed and removed faster than normal markets - also there will be some Wagon Homes eventually.

The new upcoming release of DS Jetty & Bridge will only include 1 new resource: 'RawMaterialMollusc.rsc' gone will be the 'Mussel', 'Clam', 'Snail' as well as the Fishmonger and all the range of different fish. One day I will handle these in a separate single mod.

The next release of DSSV: Production I have made the dense orchard even more likely to suffer & spread disease, though this won't effect the harvest, nor change anything if played with disasters off.

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 02:29:50 AM »
-----
When I was updating this mod the other week I debated on whether to make the new resource 'Wagon Parts' or not, I decided I would as I see the markets as more a specialty market in that they can be built on roads and also constructed and removed faster than normal markets - also there will be some Wagon Homes eventually.
-----

read, read, nod, nod, WHAT NOW?  (excited), did you say "Wagon Homes" waaahay now!  Sweet beats!  :)

Very excited @Discrepancy ;)
~ QE, I query because I like learning new things. 

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(Gently) Please: if you download mods please rate them, this helps & encourages the modders. :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 02:49:02 AM »
I'm not sure, that you'll need an extra textfile, as long as you write those things in the description on the mod load page. Of cause the text has to be upgraded, if the mod is upgraded. That will do for me. I find it easier, if I need more information to go there, than to look for an extra textfile somewhere.

As i said; I've always liked the wagon vendors, since the first version. Wagon homes, I agree with Query; looking forward on that! It's no big thing, if you use wagon parts or the basic materials; you only need 2 for each wagon, they are easy to build in a small building you can use for other things, you need more of, as well. It's interesting to introduce more "building materials" than logs, iron and stones. I have one question to this. I haven't found any wagon vendor that carries textiles. Is this intentional?

And please, @Discrepancy; don't take away the fishmonger. I would miss it very much! It's a really nice building, perfect for the shoreline. OK, it does need a little "work". As it is now; the output is too high. It would need an input or a reduced output. To me the number of the different kind of fish is too large as well. But I know, that's a matter of taste and playstyle. Some people can't have diversity enough, while some of us rather prefere shorter lists in the trading ports and inventories. I wondered about the snails etc. I found no building where they could be caught. I thought you planned something. But if you take them away, don't forget to change the recipes in your kitchen. (I have some thoughts about the balancing of the kitchen, but I haven't run it long enough to write about it, yet)

If you want to take away buildings from the jetties, I wouldn't miss the well for firefighting. It has no use there (unless you want another idling spot  :-\). People use water from the lake or river, if there's a fire. As it is now, the chopper on the jetty also has a limited use. It need to be located close to stockpiles or storage for logs and firewood. I haven't found such a storage for the jetty.

I'm experimenting with the trading ports on the jetty; how they work and can be located. I have a couple of things you could look into. I'm sure you know many of them but I'll  write down, what I've found anyway:

- People walk under the water instead of on the trading port on some parts
- No merchant bring animals to your ports.
- You can't put any canvas into the port (and a few other things I don't really want to sell but tested, like fishing and hunting gear)
- The merchant bring a secret good, worth 10, (second picture)
- You can build the port in ways, that no merchant arrive to it. I am experimenting with different ways of building it. The merchant on the first picture, just passed without visiting the port (red circle). Before I closed the jetty (blue circle) he passed under the fishmonger (green circle) but he refuses to arrive now. The same, as I replace a part of the jetty with a bridge (blue circle on the second picture); no merchant. I will continue these experiments and tell you more. I have some ideas of what I want to test.

Online Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 04:09:07 AM »
I was wondering when someone would bring that up about the jetty well.
You are right, they will go and get the water from river or lake.... but, from what I've observed with playing before with CC docks, if you are built out in the middle of a lake and a fire starts - the people won't go to the nearest exposed water spot, but to the nearest shoreline, which can be quite a distance away. So in this instance, the well is necessary :)

Fishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place? still unsure.

Yes new building, where the Molluscs will be farmed and gathered at a Jetty Mollusc Farm. There are also a few other new buildings.
I'm halfway through re-writing all the code and have just finished adding AO to the last of the jetty pieces. I should have the new version up within a couple of weeks if RL keeps calm.

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 07:02:01 AM »
@Discrepancy , wagon homes?  That sounds like my gypsy wagon camp in the making  :)  the new wagon vendors look great.