Author Topic: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest  (Read 1917 times)

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Offline embx61

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Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2017, 05:09:22 PM »
Don't let it discourage you @Tom Sawyer.

It was a very good attempt to add something nice to the game.
While some modders still discover new things in the code what works some things will just never work unless Luke make changed to the C++ code.

I for one admire what you tried to do with the achievement system.


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Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2017, 12:43:52 AM »
I like the idea very much, as well. Sorry, that it doesn´t work.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2017, 04:37:33 AM »
I started a new Nordic game the other night, a town with the weird name Kismethportuna. I haven't played much, so there haven't been much to report. Primary I wanted to test two things: DS Advanced Blast Furnace in the North and the Nomad start option. I have played once with the Nomad start (~50 people) but it was in an earlier version, with educated nomads to start with. I haven't dared to try it since they are "real" nomads.

It's no good to test new things (Blast furnace) with a (partly) uneducated population. You'll never know, if there are uneducated messing up with the production numbers. In this case, it doesn't matter. I don't suppose there's much need of a Blast furnace the first 15 years or so. I'm not playing a real time mod, so the initial uneducated population will long be gone, until it's time to build it. So the "bugs" in the first version didn't matter. I will change to the new version now, but it will still take some time until this settlement is ready for heavy industry.

Anyhow, the nomad start is tough! I haven't starved or frozen anyone to death (at least not yet) but there were shortage of most things, from time to time and never my usual big stores of food. I hope it will be better now, as the educational level increases.

First picture

Overall picture from year 6, 107 inhabitants. I've cut in the starting conditions. I choose this map, because I will need a lot of space, to look for wild food at the beginning. They do have some seeds from the start, but farming in a harsh climate doesn't give much. It's easier to fish and look for wild animals and plants.

You can see, that it's very little tools and clothes in my stores. I've tried to settle young educated people close to blacksmith and tailor, but somehow the old people seem very unwilling to leave these professions to the young. They have enough food, but you can see, it's mostly fish and meat.

Second picture

Town center in year 9, 146 inhabitants. You can see at the store of tools and clothes, that the young people finally persuaded their parents, that they are better suited for these professions. I still have problems, to increase the food store. I have only been able to buy a small amount of vegetables once, years ago. The merchants are more interested in buying than selling. But at least, I now have a nice stock of coins to use, when finally a nice food merchant arrive.




Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2017, 03:42:03 AM »
As I thought, things worked out fine. It's a big difference to play with educated workers. I'm now in year 19 and everyone is educated. I've started to build an industrial area. I made quite a few screenshots along the way. I'll show some of them and say a little something to each of them.

First picture

Year 15. These are my last two surviving initial settlers.

Second picture

The food merchants still more or less boycott this settlement. I have no idea, what it did to annoy them. Maybe not buying some expensive fruit or peppar, the few times they paid their visit. The miller at the center of this picture wasn't much busy. Just once could he grind some corn. But the people are content normally eating fish and on special days some meat with a desert of berries with milk.

The 3 herbalists are busy, so the people are still healthy enough, but now in April all herbs from last year are gone. But spring is in the air and things will sort out. You can see, that I've closed some of the fishing places. There are two reasons: more than enough food, not enough workers.

Third picture

The graph shows why I'm short on worker. The nomad start with 50 people made it look like this; the number of adults hasn't grown the last 5 years, because all the initial settlers became old and died in a short time. The number of graduated students can't more than just keep up.

I've built a bank. Not that I really need one. But I had a few spare coins and it's such a nice building. I can admit, that the location here isn't very appealing. This settlement has no town center, at least not yet. Maybe I will try to make one later, moving the sheep somewhere else. That's why I choose to build the bank close to the village hall.

More to come but I will make a new post. I sometimes have trouble, if I add too many pictures.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2017, 04:08:03 AM »
First picture

This is the start of my industrial area. I like the idea of an early industry very much. The miners homes fit well in this industrial area. Not beautiful but appropriate and comfortable. Of cause they need some place to get their supply. The look of the Nordic store doesn't really fit in these surroundings. A company store in a design similar to the houses would be nice.

I can't say much about the production yet, but it seems quite low for such a big building like the blast furnace. I'll tell a bit more when I've played a few years and have some numbers.

You can see, that the food merchants finally stopped their boycott.

Second picture

I would suggest, that you increase the height of the mine entrance @Discrepancy. It looks odd when all the heads of the miners pop out of the roof.

The look of the Blast Furnace and Coke Oven is great; fire and smoke. Real industry!

You can also see the food graph. Everything is under control. It wasn't so at the beginning.

Online Discrepancy

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2017, 04:15:43 AM »
If you build a road into the mine,  they will keep their heads! :)

I do agree also that the blast furnace should work quicker. Next update.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2017, 01:35:56 PM »
Thank you for the tip, I will build that road into the mine. I've played a bit more and it actually looks like 2 blacksmiths in the blast furnace produce less iron than 1 smelter in a small Nordic bloomery together with 1 blacksmith producing iron from iron bloom. I'll give you some more numbers tomorrow.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2017, 12:11:17 AM »
The industrial style looks very nice in your game. Really a great work @Discrepancy. Maybe the bloomery can get a small nerf but it has to work in early game with a worker switching between charcoal pit, blommery and smithy. And I think such a blaster should be able to process the iron for a whole town of 1000 people or so. Of course with more workers. A small calculation of how many tools are needed in such a town per year could help to get a feeling how fast it should work.

And another question @Nilla. What was happened in year 9 when your food graph decided to go up north? :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2017, 09:28:02 AM »
If you build a road into the mine,  they will keep their heads! :)

Sorry, it didn't work. The head still pops out of the roof; now it's just the head, not the whole upper part of the body.

Maybe the bloomery can get a small nerf but it has to work in early game with a worker switching between charcoal pit, blommery and smithy. And I think such a blaster should be able to process the iron for a whole town of 1000 people or so. Of course with more workers. A small calculation of how many tools are needed in such a town per year could help to get a feeling how fast it should work.

And another question @Nilla. What was happened in year 9 when your food graph decided to go up north? :)

To the last question: I didn't do anything special. Just played a "normal" game, where everyone doing things, that make sense. The circumstances helped; higher educational rate, lower rate unproductive/productive, a lot of fisher, a couple of food merchants.....foodgraph goes North! ;)

Now to the iron production. It's obvious; bloomery+blacksmith produces more than 2 blacksmiths in the blaster. To my opinion; it's not the way it ought to work. The hard question is; does the blaster produce too little or the bloomery too much? I've ran both production ways simultaneously and I also ran 2 blasters, one with charcoal and one with coke. As far as I can see; the production numbers are the same but charcoal is more profitable than coke. Only if a settlement runs short on logs, coke could maybe be an alternative. Here are my production numbers. I hope, that there aren´t too much miscalculation.

The numbers from the blaster, small mine, coke oven and coal pit are from only a few years on this location. (So not 100% reliable). I have recalculated the production for one worker.  Of cause; this is the North and I'm using the North trade values; very much different from vanilla. It's the values you get selling for coins to the "right" merchant.

Blast furnace: 66-94 iron; input 16, output 28, profit 12 -> annual profit: 792-1124
(2 worker; 94 each, 4 worker; 80 each, 5 worker 66-76 each)
It looks like the production pro worker is lower, if you use more workers in the same site. You can see this sometimes on other buildings as well, but not always. I don't understand why it is this way.

Small mine 48-54 iron ore (10 miners) input 1, output 12, profit 11 -> annual profit 528-594

Coal pit 128-150 (3 miners), profit 512-600

Coke oven 108-128, input 4, output 8, profit 4 -> annual profit 432-512

Charcoal Pit 220-288, input 3, output 8, profit 5 -> annual profit 1100-1440

Bloomery 180-220, input 28, output 28, profit 0

Blacksmith 232-264 iron. Input 16, output 28, profit 12 -> annual profit 2496- 2880 (or ½ for each smelter and blacksmith)

Now to the question; what is reasonable for production sites like these? Tom means a blast furnace ought to produce enough iron for a settlement of 1000 inhabitants. How many tools does such a settlement need? That is hard to say. It depends. Miners and stonecutters need a lot more tools, than many other professions. If you only produce iron tools, they will need a lot more than steel tools (or even hardened steel tools, if you use mods for that). My guess; a lot of miners, stonecutter and other high work professions with iron tools, would need close to 1000. Few miners with hardened steel tools, would maybe not need more than 250. (A blast furnace with 5 blacksmiths produces average 350 iron now.) Just to say something; let's say the 1000 people town need 500 steel tools and 100 iron for construction.

How much material do we need for this and how many people would be involved in the production?

alt 1 furnace with coke
2,4 blacksmiths making 500 steel tools from 500 steel, 250 charcoal, 125 logs
2,2 blacksmiths making 500 steel from 500 iron and 250 charcoal
8,5 blacksmiths in the blaster making 600 iron from 600 iron ore and 300 coke
12 miner getting 600 iron ore using 60 logs
2,2 blacksmiths in the coke oven making 300 coke from 300 coal
5 miner in the coal bell pit getting 600 coal (half will land in peoples homes as fuel, replacing the work of 0,3 chopper+0,7 forester)
2 charcoalburner making 500 charcoal from 500 firewood
0,6 woodcutter making 500 firewood from 125 logs
3 foresters getting 310 logs
 together ~37 worker

alt 2 bloomery
2,4 blacksmiths making 500 steel tools from 500 steel, 250 charcoal, 125 logs
2,2 blacksmiths making 500 steel from 500 iron and 250 charcoal
2,6 blacksmiths making 600 iron from 300 iron bloom and 150 charcoal
3 smelter making 600 iron bloom from 600 iron ore and 600 charcoal
12 miner getting 600 iron ore using 60 logs
5 charcaolburner making 1250 charcoal from 1250 firewood
1,4 woodcutter making 1250 firewood from 312 logs
4,4 foresters getting 500 logs
together ~33 worker

30-40 people working to produce tools and iron for a 1000 people town isn't much.

If we look at trade profit. In the North a person need food, fuel, tools, clothing to a tradevalue around 500 each year. That means, that miners and workers of the coke oven produce just enough to support themselves. Generally in Banished miners (and other producers of raw materials) have a low production, so there's not much to say about that. If I remember it right, the Nordic mine has a production in this range, too. But of cause there are children, traders, vendors and others to support, so a trade value of 1000-2000 is reasonable for other professions.

So again what is reasonable? This long text need a short answer. All production sites (maybe except the coke oven) have a production/profit in a reasonable range. The problem is, that the small scale production is more profitable than the industrial. My suggestion; increase the production in the blaster, decrease it in the bloomery. I can understand your concern @Tom Sawyer; that the production at the beginning will be too slow, when you have to alter worker between different tool making professions. All these steps; charcoal, ironbloom, iron, tools produce about 20 each month. You need more charcoal, so to produce 20 tools it needs around 5 month. If the bloomery only produce the half, it would take 6 month. It would still work fine to produce enough tools at the beginning. (Irritating slow with a surviver start but it would work). And I'm not sure that you have to cut it as much as 100%.

Just one picture

It seems like the limit in the blast oven is connected to logs. ???

Just for information: The company that runs the quarry provides its worker with a different kind of houses! ;) 

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM »
Quote from: Nilla
Only if a settlement runs short on logs, coke could maybe be an alternative.

Would be realistic. People were using charcoal in Europe till forests were depleted in 17/18 century (at least where the industry was growing). Then they started to dig into the ground for an alternative fuel. With enough wood actually no need for mining coal. The same in Banished.

Quote from: Nilla
It looks like the production pro worker is lower, if you use more workers in the same site. You can see this sometimes on other buildings as well, but not always. I don't understand why it is this way.

It occurs if a model has less "use" and "create" points than added workers. If a production building has 1 point and 2 workers are added, they will not produce more than what 1 worker would get. Or only a bit more because the second one can work while the first one is doing something else. So the values are probably not right in your test.

I find it difficult to balance furnace and bloomery. To lower the primitive construction by 50% is a good way to start as you said. If a smelter in the industrial building will have the twice speed it should work in general. It already comes by making the iron directly and without hand forging the bloom.

So the new bloomery will produce about 150 bloom maximum in a year. Still enough for a village and I also think that it can be managed in hard starts. My values are worktime 8 * workrequired 5 = about 37 turns * 4/3 = 150/110 iron bloom.

If we use the same values to make iron directly with up to 8 or 10 workers, the DS machine can produce up to 1500 iron in a year. Enough to provide a developed town or for export. Just my first thoughts.

Online Discrepancy

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2017, 03:39:03 AM »
... my blast furnace already has 5 use points and 6 create points. But I will also increase.

I will speed it up as my values currently are workTime 8 and workRequired 8, which is too slow.

It seems like the limit in the blast oven is connected to logs. ???
good find! :)

I will work on update now.

thanks @Nilla & @Tom Sawyer

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2017, 05:35:20 AM »
@Nilla , I strongly disagree with lowing production of the bloomer.  I don't recall reading in any of you previous North towns that the production was too much.  This recommendation now is a comparison with Blast Furnace mod, and assumes the two will be used together .. not very likely on small or mountain maps.  This comparison also does not take in start conditions with less than 50 people, uneducated nomads, or proper time.  I would find it a real hardship in the North if bloomery production was lowered.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2017, 11:25:38 AM »
@Nilla , I strongly disagree with lowing production of the bloomer.  I don't recall reading in any of you previous North towns that the production was too much.  This recommendation now is a comparison with Blast Furnace mod, and assumes the two will be used together .. not very likely on small or mountain maps.  This comparison also does not take in start conditions with less than 50 people, uneducated nomads, or proper time.  I would find it a real hardship in the North if bloomery production was lowered.

As  I said in that long thread:
Quote
All production sites (maybe except the coke oven) have a production/profit in a reasonable range. The problem is, that the small scale production is more profitable than the industrial.
That's the reason I didn't complain about the production of the bloomery before.
and
Quote
All these steps; charcoal, ironbloom, iron, tools produce about 20 each month. You need more charcoal, so to produce 20 tools it needs around 5 month. If the bloomery only produces the half, it would take 6 month. It would still work fine to produce enough tools at the beginning. (Irritating slow with a survivor start but it would work). And I'm not sure that you have to cut it as much as 100%.

I did concider a start with less than 50 people, even a start with 8 poor tool-less people, who need a lot longer, than even uneducated to produce a few tools. ;) And to decrease the production of one of the steps in the chain, doesn't make things so much harder than they are.

Maybe you are right; you will probably not build a blast furnace for a small settlement. But the other way around; If you want a blast furnace on a big map to support a large settlement (or on a small map for a small settlement in order to export tools), you will always build a bloomery first, when you play the North. With those production numbers, a player like me, would not concider to build a blast furnace.

Now @Discrepancy made an update and the production for each worker at the blast furnace has increased to about the same level as the bloomery + blacksmith. It would be enough for me, to build such an impressive building, if I need a lot of iron. I still would prefere, that a worker in this large site, would produce more than in the small. I find Tom's suggestion to reduce the production with about 1/3 is good. I'm sure @Abandoned, it will not hurt you too much. But if there are too much of protests, I can live with it the way it is now as well.   

@Discrepancy, I downloaded the upgrade. The blast furnace worked fine. I didn't even had to demolish (I had 2 sites and rebuilt one of them, just to be sure, but it wouldn't have been necessary). I used 10 blacksmiths in one of them and 2 in the other. I ran them two years. 10 blacksmiths produced average 102 iron each, 2 blacksmiths 120. Seems reasonable. We don´t want it too powerful.

I didn't really develop the settlement in these years, as I checked the new production numbers, so I had time to look around. One question to you @Tom Sawyer. You said about the trapper, that the production would get down after a while, if he is located in an area with busy forestry. My first trappers, mainly active in my first forests, still makes 160-170 furs each year after ~20 years. There haven't been 4 foresters in each sites all the time; sometimes I have more logs than I can use and the space in my ports is limited. Is this the reason, that they still catches a lot of animals?

Now to the strange thing? Look at the picture: How does this CC merchant with all his CC goods (and all his following colleges) found their way to the North? I didn't change anything, except the new version of the blast furnace. What I did yesterday, was to download the latest CC-version. It's not activated, but can it spook around in this game all the same? ??? I didn't play with it, just opened one map to take a look at the menu! Or did you @Discrepancy willingly/unwillingly make any changes by the trade?


Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2017, 12:41:02 PM »
Wow, so much stuff to smoke.^^ It seems your export merchants were rowing over the whole pond or they were in Amsterdam. ;D

They are Nordic traders but something added resources from the colony to your game. Maybe there was something happened when you loaded CC in another map but would be strange.

And I guess the forests are not overworked. At least they don't have an impact yet. Or trappers can find enough animals in their larger area behind the foresters.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2017, 03:46:18 AM »
Wow, so much stuff to smoke.^^ It seems your export merchants were rowing over the whole pond or they were in Amsterdam. ;D
:D
Feathers?? Smoke??? Have you found a new use for this product? There´s not much hep left, so I guess the merchant used it himself and lost his way.  ;)


I also noticed, that I couldn't make a save of this game. So, something has been messed up. But I have new ideas, maybe I will try tonight and there will be a new blog tomorrow!  :-\
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:49:20 AM by Nilla »