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Request: no children until 18 y/o

Started by MarkJerue, February 10, 2017, 11:27:24 AM

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MarkJerue

Can someone consider making a mod that makes it so the parents have to be 18 before they can have children?

I watched a YouTuber (see https://youtu.be/sPHbU7tMNL4?t=11m17s ) painfully look at a 12 y/o mother and a 25 y/o father have a child and wince. It made me think of this!

The Pilgrim

I guess someone could do it but, you are asking to have a medieval simulation adapt to our modern cultural mores.  Though I think 15 would be more historically accurate.

QueryEverything

Quote from: The Pilgrim on February 10, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
I guess someone could do it but, you are asking to have a medieval simulation adapt to our modern cultural mores.  Though I think 15 would be more historically accurate.
But, as the mod is optional, where is the harm?
Not all of us play as medieval hamlet builders, there are a few of us that mix it up a little.  A mod, is a mod, it's dynamic to a gamers perspective, I think this mod is a great idea, and it makes it more interesting for some players as they have to relearn their game style / pattern ...

I do see your point @The Pilgrim about accuracy :)

I had a nightmare (won't go into details), so I could really use this mod right about now ...  I am a little gun-shy of thinking about how my Banniminions are expanding ...  ugh.
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TheOtherMicheal

#3
WARNING: Rant ahead 
People really need to stop projecting their 21st century social concepts onto this game. Life in the medieval era was vastly different to today and people's lifespans could often be brutally short by today's standards. Life back then was more violent, childbirth was riskier, childhood death was very common, disease & injury were far more common, sanitation and medical care were basic, civil rights for people were even more basic, useful knowledge of germs didn't exist and schooling as we know it today was practically non-existent for the majority of children. People could die from something as basic as an infected tooth.

Most couples did not have the luxury of waiting until they were in their mid-late 20s to start a family.
A typical person employed in physical labour was lucky to live into their 40s. So if you're expecting to live only to about 40-45, then "middle age" is about 23. Which means you need to have children to look after you when you're too old or too injured to work. Which means you start having children in your mid-teens

Depending on the region of the world you were living in, a marriage was a political or social arrangement and had little room for "boy meets girl, they fall in love, they get married. Couples were often betrothed to each other in childhood, as in before they were 13 years of age. Again, depending on what region of the world you were in, a couple might be married when the female was 13 and the male 17 and their first child would typically be when she was 15-17.

However depending on various social or political factors, customs/traditions and so on, the female may have been older and the male may have been much older and sometimes younger than the female. The age of consent to marry in Western Europe at that time was generally around 12 years of age but the marriage was often not consummated until the girl was 14-16 to give her a better chance at a healthy childbirth. However if a male heir was needed in a family, the girl could be required to start having children at an earlier age because girls were considered to be ready for pregnancy as soon as they started menstruating. In some parts of Europe in the 12th century a person (or rather, their parents) could give their consent to marry at the age of 7 years and older.

People today have to stop thinking that people back then lived into their 90s, they have to realize that lifespans were often as short as 40 years and when you're considered old at 40, you're considered middle-aged at 20 so you need to start a family in your early teens if you want enough children to actually survive long enough to look after you when you're too old/too injured to work.

And after all that ranting, you're playing a game. Stop thinking of it as real life in the 21st century, it's just a game so there's no need for people to project their beliefs onto it.

QueryEverything

#4
@TheOtherMicheal valid points, for the timeline, however the core concept of this is  --it is a game-- and also --the mod is elective--, meaning that if people feel the want to play it without historical accuracy, then that's cool, and the mod is elective, so not everyone must have it.

I think (politely) that the ones projecting politics on to the game, and their beliefs, are those opposing the mod development.  I think the original request is reasonable, and it's no big deal.

I'm not sure why the request warranted a rant, valid (contextually to game history) as it may have been, had it been for a permanent change by Luke, the game developer. 

If my post seems ranty, or smarmy, I mean it not to be, just, not sure why the request has become about history & politics.

Enjoy the Saturday ...  :D


(edit) why not split the difference and have 16?  But, both parents must be 16+, not just the girl.  Given that this is an acceptable cultural age currently (not ideal for schooling etc, but definitely workable!!! :)) why not 16?  I still stand by the original post, and support the request for 18, but, 16 is good too to be more palatable for those that want more accuracy.
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brads3

i think the best mod we have for this and keeping toward history and a balance is the propertime mod. they should be out of school,move out from the parents,and begin child-bearing at about 16.and the max child-bearing age was increased to give back population growth that is lost by the difference from the vanilla time to 1 yr=1yr time. there are other age mods but thats the best for balance.

TheOtherMicheal

@QueryEverything yeah it probably did not warrant a rant but I've heard this sort of request a few times from people who feel that the ages used in vanilla are "creepy" or "wrong". The problem I have is that generally, these people are not putting anything into context and all this has come about at the same time when some people have been wanting to revise history so they can edit out the parts they find unpalatable. I have a strong objection to revising anything if it removes the facts, even more so when people want the facts removed because they don't want to deal with the reality.

This is the same mentality that has seen some college students recently ask for "trigger warnings" on text books so that they can avoid things that they don't like or that make them unhappy. And I see it as exactly the same mentality that fosters suspicion, intolerance and ultimately bigotry of anything/anyone different to the person making the judgement.

QueryEverything

@brads3 excellent idea, I haven't used it as I'm fine with the timeline currently (and I don't think too much about the life cycle), but from reading on it, it's a good, balanced mod :)

@TheOtherMicheal I agree with you, real world context, I have issues with rewriting things, unless it's been proven historically that our initial findings were inaccurate.  History was written by the winners in some cases, however thankfully with more modern archiving I'm hoping our future will contain accurate assessments and representations of history. :)

I do agree some text books maybe should come with trigger warnings, although, I have to ask, at what age?  Surely those in college and university's and upper high school know what they're studying and then surely you should know what is in your text books!!  Ugh!!  (Maybe some Lit & Arts books may cause an issue, but honestly ...  the mind boggles).
Thank you for the well informed conversation. 
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brads3

i never worried bout the breeding ages of the other aging mods. the problems i saw was the vanilla would go too fast and outgrow the resources. plus the farms are set on a year base but population was what 3x or 4x that?the biggest arguement i had on the 1:1 yr mods,there were several attempts,wwas the school start age was too high.in reality the kids would be helping on the farm way earlier than those mods allowed. i think as players,we have more control and don't have the big yoyo swings in food and resources now.the game tends to go slow at the beginning but that gives time to stock barns for future nomads or populations.plus those early years ,most players use to plan what they want to do with the map.

http://banishedinfo.com/mods/view/27-one-year-is-one-year-Update-24-16052032#changelog
if someone does want a different way of playing thou,they should go thru the change log at that link. it was changed multiple times. every person plays different,you might find a balance that works for you.

Gatherer

I have no probs with the game's 10 year old mothers and 12 year olds living with 50, 60 or even 70+ yea old folk. Also I have no probs with mods that try to fix this as long as these are just standalone mods. I don't want these "fixes" in the vanilla game. In my opinion the aging and coupling is just right, it was different times back then.
There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

Nilla

@MarkJerue; you don't need any mods to rise the age of the mothers: Just build enough schools. If a girl lives very close to a school, she might get her first child with 16 or 17 but in most cases it will last longer. It's only uneducated that could have children that young.

But don´t forget; this is a computer game. There are many not realistic features.  ;)

MarkJerue

Thanks y'all for the discussion!

I wasn't more weirded-out by the 30-somethings guys marrying the 14ish girls... makes sense for a medieval period. It's more the 40-something women marrying the 12 year-old boys and having children, or the 11 and 10 year-olds having kids...yeeeek.


RedKetchup

Quote from: MarkJerue on February 15, 2017, 08:02:15 AM
Thanks y'all for the discussion!

I wasn't more weirded-out by the 30-somethings guys marrying the 14ish girls... makes sense for a medieval period. It's more the 40-something women marrying the 12 year-old boys and having children, or the 11 and 10 year-olds having kids...yeeeek.

depends how they look LOL
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TheOtherMicheal

My apologies for disrupting the thread @MarkJerue  As others have mentioned, it's not my place to tell people what mods they should have, everyone is free to use or not use whatever mod and they're free to request whatever they feel will make their game experience better. I reacted so strongly because I had seen similar requests where the person making the request said basically, "the game is broken because of this, someone has to make a mod to fix it" and that mentality irks me unreasonably  :o