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Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

Started by Nilla, February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM

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Denis de la Rive

He uses is a statement of fact, like it is blue, he is using is an action, like running, he used is an action in the past, like using a tool yesterday, he used to, is an action in the past, (mostly after it has ended), something he has stopped doing, like he made tools yesterday, but now he is a vendor, he is used to, something you are comfortable with, like a old wool sweater. Hope this is helpful.  :)

I again want you to understand that your mistakes a very minor. Where we live, Red and me we speak french, but North America is an english dominated so we have to learn english. My schooling is in both so I understand how a language can be difficult to learn.

When we discuss storage, flags are important to understand, sometimes they are different from what is written in the game toolbars. What is in a tool bar is to help the player understand what a resource is in simple words, not exactly what it is called in the code. Using these types of exact descriptions would only cause confusion. I have looked at what Red has made public, about his resources, and unless it has changed they have the same flag, custom 7. That is why flowers and fertilizer are placed in the same storage place.

I was thinking about the lack of specialized storage, (meaning for barns, and carts), a simple solution could be to use a version of the carts without a vendor. Instead of a market, they are a barn. It would work like the specialized stockpiles, but with only one flag for things that don't go there.

As I think about documentation, I have a good idea of what is needed. Again I have not discussed it with Red, so this is just an idea. You could have something like a spreadsheet, or charts similar to what has been done by CC, not a copy, where you can find information like Red posted in his answer about jewelry. This kind of document can help many people, and can be customized to fit what is best. If you take the raw numbers and make them public then many people will be happy. What it becomes is a slightly more detailed version of the tool tip, but all in one place.

I also think you could make something like a catalog where you explain the meaning of things like flags, production chains, and starting conditions. You can also present your choices, and why you made things work in your own, (the designer's) way. Here I am also thinking of "The North", since Tom Sawyer has written he is also interested in making some documentation. A simple file with images, (PDF), that show how things work, and explains things like; which cart will accept what resource. Thinking again of jewelry, you could show the production from start to end, again with examples. This can also help to understand how to create resources that need more than one thing, or use more than one building.

Where you can explain concepts like burn, how warm a house is. You can also explain how to make things so that it is easier for someone new to enjoy the mod. It can also have a section on tricks, and advice from experts like you. As I look at your canal problem, I could have written in the document, "sometimes it is better to use the levelling tool before you place the canal", or "it happens that some pieces will not always fit perfectly". If there are situations that a designer can't fix those can also be included, like "villagers will often walk over a ghosted fence, this a function of how ghosted objects work in the game, and it can not be avoided, or changed by a mod maker".

If you wanted to you could also show why building like the barber have a health feature. As you see I have a good idea of what can be done.  :)

I agree there is no best way to play, only a bad way when everybody dies.  ;)

I hope happiness is not a problem for you, but how long has it been since the tornado?

So more on balance:

I think you must account for all the factors when creating a balance formula, the cost of the building, the cost of the resources used and the time involved in production. This will give you and added value factor you can use to see how much a produced good is worth. This is often the cause of many problems of balance. Some you can fix by controlling resource rarity, others by playing with the numbers.

Terms: investment is the cost of building the production site, work cycle is how long it takes to make the product, input is what you need to make it, value is the trade cost of your input resources, output is what you get from the production. All values except time are in final trade value, for vanilla, logs 2, iron 5, stone 7. Custom resources use those programmed by the mod maker, for example flowers would be 1.

I will explain what I did so I don't have to create too many charts. I made an average of the values for vanilla buildings that are similar to what we are looking at. If you look at the building you can link them in groups that are similar, like production, mining, civics, housing. Some things like fields and pastures are important, and you can't change how they work. I also think that the way hunting/gathering/fishing work in the game makes them not important to these calculation.

I think you can use the following buildings as a examples of production, taylor, blacksmith, wood chopper, brewery. Originally I had included the herbalist, but it fits better with the gathering group. This gives us B, (the average vanilla build cost) = 370, and K, (the average of vanilla total work) = 21, but you can also add mining when the work in similar to that, KM = 70.

If you wanted to you could include things like mines and gathering but I feel such building work create instead of transform, so should only be used if the building works in a similar way.

With this information we can now look at what is being added. You need the building cost, = C, and total work of the new building = W. You also need the input number, = I, the input value, = V and output of the production = O.

We then create a formula.

Investment is: IN = C ÷ B

Work cycle is: CY = W ÷ K

Then final trade value is FT= ((IN+CY -1) x (IxV)) ÷ O

As an example something from CC, since I don't have the numbers from RK Ed.

Glass, building cost: 54 logs, 24 stone, 10 iron = 326, time (16 x 8) = 128

Input goods and value: firewood (8 x 4), sand (25 x 1) = 57, output uneducated is 7 glass.

So IN is 326 ÷ 370 = .88

So CY = 128 ÷ 21 = 6.09, or CY = 128 ÷ 70 = 1.83

So O = 7

Considering how much work is need to make glass we go with KM instead of K

Then we have FT = ((.88+1.83 -1) x (32+25)) ÷ 7, or (1.71x57) ÷ 7 = 13,92, or 14.

With this information you can now adjust you production chain so it fit what you want it to do. You must remember this is a tool to help the mod maker see how his additions fit in with the basic values of the game. If you change work, input, or building cost then it will change the final result.  If you have a final number you can then change the other factor to get what you want. A simple spread can be programmed to do all the work. Having something like this makes it better than having to guess, and constantly change your numbers.

There is a logic to idea that things that are harder to make, or have a large investment will be rare, and traders will pay more for them.

I have used uneducated output because I think education should add value, unless it is something simple like wood chopping. Again a mod maker can adjust for this with in his code, like having the same output for both types of workers.

I had also started something similar for housing, but it need more work.

There you have it a bit complicated, but once you understand it, easy to use.

Impact craters? this place really is cursed.  ;)

I'm happy you like our discussions.  :)

Nilla

Yes I like our discussions! But I really don't know what to say! So, I will simply speak straight forward and ask you directly:

Don't you read what I write? I could understand that. I know, I write too long. But in that case, please don't pretend you do and tell me. Or is my English so bad, that it's hard to understand? You just said, it wasn't and I don't take you for a liar, so I guess this is not the case.

So, it looks like you think I'm stupid. I can assure you, I'm not! If I say repeatedly, that dung and flowers don't belong to the same "flag" in this mod and are not stored at the same place, they aren't! None of my "complains" about the dung, say anything about flowers. None of all my pictures from the stores with dung and fodder show any flowers. Maybe that could also be a clue.

It seems, that you're a clever and helpful guy, and I have a friendly advice; play a game with RKEd before you start giving advice and explain things. I guess, this would be nicer for everyone, including yourself and bring far better quality to your advice.

I will answer more tomorrow, if you still want to. I know you're a proud Fresh Canadian, so I might take a risk by speaking this clear. I really don't want to offend you and I hope I haven't.

RedKetchup

euh......

flowers are custom7 = Miscellaneous
dung is now custom4 = Materials (the change happended when Nilla asked to be stored outside instead of next of the wheat and the watermelons ^^
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galensgranny

Quote from: Nilla**Which is the right way to express this: "he uses" or "he's using"?

@Nilla,
They are both correct, but one could be a better choice in some cases. 

QuoteHe uses the word "Materials" containing, dung, ...

"He uses" is fine there.  I would replace "containing" with "to include".

QuoteHe's using the word "Miscellaneous", containing flowers, ...

That is fine also.  The full meaning is "He is using the word "miscellaneous" [for his mods] to include ...."  Of course you don't need to write in "for his mods" because it was clear that the discussion is about his mods.

Probably it would be ideal to stick to one format for both sentences to be consistent, but this is not an advanced English test, so it's all good.

They are both being used as verbs.  He uses, he is using- he does both!  Uses it currently, and used it previously, and apparently will continue to use.   ;D

English is my native language.  American English, that is. 

Your English is really good! I am amazed that you know three languages!

Regarding the detailed technical talk, I suppose it is fine to get into such extreme analysis of the game, with formulas and all, but that seems to be a bit much to me.  I'll wait for the simple summary of what is best for what purpose.

Denis de la Rive

I used the files Red shared, so that is why I made the mistake, He should update them here, http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0.

Sometimes things change, and it is not always easy to follow every single little change in every mod. There are so many and my focus is not on a single mod, or mod maker.

I do not think you are stupid, I write from the information I have. I understand you are angry, but I could say the same when it comes to the way information is shared. I think some of this could be solved with better documentation.

It would be difficult for you to offend me since I respect you very much, and so that you know I like it when people write honestly about what they think, and feel.

Actually its Anglo-Québecois for me.  ;)

English is a contextual language, meaning that words are understood by looking at the words that come with it. An example is bear/bare which can mean many things, and when spoken sounds the same. Bare means: without or nude, bear means: to carry, to endure, (emotions, or burden), or a large furry mammal. It is by looking at the the words that are nearby that you understand which one is correct. For example. " a bare/bear...", needs to answer the question what with the next words,(even more so if spoken since bear/bare sound the same). Is it a wall, leg, or something big and dangerous? Other languages use grammar to help you understand meaning, old english use to be like that, how a word ended was a clue to things like gender. French is very much a gender dependant language, with things like un/une. While in english you get a simple the. From what I understand of Japanese, the inflection you use can change the meaning of the spoken word. Chinese has something like 15 different versions, but since their writing system uses symbols for words not sounds every chinese person can read it easily, even if they can't understand a different spoken language.

So getting back to bear/bare, the words before and after will determine what you are talking/writing about. This is why people have some problems learning it as a second language. The simplicity of the grammar comes at the cost of being confusing for a non native speaker. We are taught to ask, (always think): who, what, when, where, and, how, when we read, it becomes a reflex, so we do not think about it.

You should understand that this makes it easier for readers to understand what you write, it is simple to ignore the grammar mistakes if you are clear in what you write. People will understand that bear/bare means the animal from words like fur, meat, or carrying from things like tools, far, or burden with death, or pain. You are very good at making the context, (meaning), clear, the rest is not that important.

I hope you still like me, I am sorry if I made you feel bad.  :)

RedKetchup

Quote from: Denis de la Rive on March 25, 2018, 02:43:24 PM
I used the files Red shared, so that is why I made the mistake, He should update them here, http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1607.0.



sorry fixed, added new fertilizer that goes inside a stockpile
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Nilla

I'm glad @Denis de la Rive, that you're not offended. I'm not mad at you, never was. But you must know; I'm an engineer and all my professional life, I've worked in "male structures". I made a decision early in my career, that I would not tolerate any kind of "master suppression techniques" (I think you call it in English); attempts to hold you down, not listening, make you invisible, ridiculous,,,, because you're a girl (could be immigrant, disabled, homosexual,,,,,,as well). I decided to always speak up and take the consequences. It has caused me some trouble but more respect. I have developed a quite sensible "bell", that rings, at the first signs. And this bell rang, as I read these entries; as it seemed, that you didn't listen to what i said.

I thank you, Denis as well as @galensgranny in your attempts to teach me some of this difficult English language. Swedish is a small language, we need to learn foreign languages, if we want to communicate with more people, than our fellow countrymen. I have lived many years in Germany. My husband is German and normally we speak German at home. He knows Swedish as well but we made a decision, when we moved to Sweden 20 years ago with 2 school children, that we would go on and speak only German at home. We wanted the children to stay bilingual. And we are so used to German, that we continued, even after the children have moved out.

Back to Banished.

To your formula

I will give you some of my thoughts, just to think about. We don't just want some fancy numbers, we want them to tell something; Be a help for the modder to make well balanced buildings and for the player to choose buildings and products.

I think, it's good to relate the numbers from a modded building with the numbers from compareable vanilla buildings. The problem is only, that the vanilla buildings are so different. I will not use math terminology, but if you make an average from numbers with a large variation, there are problems. It's maybe better to chose one specific building in each category.

What is the interest in mixing investment and production? In that case, you must also concider the time in which this building is used. No one knows, how long a player choose to play; it could be a few years (where the investment cost is important) or a few thousand years (!)(where the initial investment is totally uninteresting). I find, it would be better to calculate a number, that tells, how long it take, to "pay off" the investment. This would have the disadvantage, that the modder have two different numbers to work with; one for investment and one for production but I think, this would be more reliable. As alternative, you can build in an average time, in which the investment is supposed to be used in your formula, but without this, I find, your number has a limited use and the influence of the investment part, will generally be too high.

The numbers for uneducated as "standard"? I don't know. OK, you can see education as bonus or uneducation as penalty, I guess in the end it will be the same. I find the "standard" should be set to what people normally use. I (and most other player I know) generally have a high education rate. That's why I would prefere that to be the standard. And I do agree with you, that the modders should variate this uneducated penalty/education bonus more, than in vanilla, depending on the profession.

To my game

I haven't played many years but the settlement grows. It's a lot to do all the time, a very nice game. I can't say much more about the jewelery chain, than that you need a lot of random mines to get gems enough, to run the gemcutter continuously. I have a lot of "impact craters" and there will have to be more!  ;D

First picture

Just a small winter impression from my industrial area.

Second picture

Here's an overview in summer.

Third picture.

Here's the other area, where I expand. I haven't calculated, but I'm sure, there's no economy in my industry, at least not yet and the people have to be supported somehow. I've cut in the graph, where you can see the happiness and compare it to the population growth. You can also see, where the tornado was. It doesn't show much influence on the happines. I was lucky and had just built my only graveyard before it struck and most of the dead got a grave. I expect the happiness to get down from here. Two reason; many miners, many accidents and I have difficulties to produce enough bricks and rooftiles to build a house immediately for each young person. When young people can't move out as early as possible, it influences the happiness in a double negative way; more children live at home when a parent dies of old age, and when an unhappy person move out late, he doesn't recover happiness.

RedKetchup

your town looks so great :) the first screenshot... i ll try to make a fancy screen for the game with it :)
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Nilla

That would be cool, a picture from me! ;) But it's completely your "fault", that this town looks so good. You have made very lovely buildings. Even someone like me can build a good looking town. We have a proverb here in Sweden that says "Even a blind hen might find a grain", you can transfer it to "Even Nilla might build a nice looking town"! ;)

A small wish; a brewery in the same style as the gemcutter/jeweler/candlemaker. Wouldn't it be nice? I'm not very fond of the vanilla brewery, not even in your "clothes".

RedKetchup

Quote from: Nilla on March 26, 2018, 06:42:24 AM
That would be cool, a picture from me! ;) But it's completely your "fault", that this town looks so good. You have made very lovely buildings. Even someone like me can build a good looking town. We have a proverb here in Sweden that says "Even a blind hen might find a grain", you can transfer it to "Even Nilla might build a nice looking town"! ;)

A small wish; a brewery in the same style as the gemcutter/jeweler/candlemaker. Wouldn't it be nice? I'm not very fond of the vanilla brewery, not even in your "clothes".

you are right all the way :) from first word to the last one of your post :)
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galensgranny

Quote from: Nilla on March 26, 2018, 05:35:47 AM
I'm glad @Denis de la Rive, that you're not offended. I'm not mad at you, never was. But you must know; I'm an engineer and all my professional life, I've worked in "male structures". I made a decision early in my career, that I would not tolerate any kind of "master suppression techniques" (I think you call it in English); attempts to hold you down, not listening, make you invisible, ridiculous,,,, because you're a girl (could be immigrant, disabled, homosexual,,,,,,as well). I decided to always speak up and take the consequences. It has caused me some trouble but more respect. I have developed a quite sensible "bell", that rings, at the first signs. And this bell rang, as I read these entries; as it seemed, that you didn't listen to what i said.

@Nilla , you explained so well and so articulately what many men tend to do to women!  Here is an American English slang that goes with that "master suppression"- mansplaining.  The "splaining" is short for "explain".  Here is more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining.  I think some men don't realize they are doing it, but it would be good if they paid better attention.

Your town looks good, Nilla!  I haven't used canals yet, but I see how nice they are so will start using them.

RedKetchup

so i made a Loading Screen... from your screenshot :)
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Nilla

:) If I had known, that you wanted to use the picture, I would have put vendors in the closed charts, to take away these signs.

RedKetchup

Quote from: Nilla on March 27, 2018, 01:52:09 AM
:) If I had known, that you wanted to use the picture, I would have put vendors in the closed charts, to take away these signs.

yeah i prefer not have any status icons :) and no UI open neither :)
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