News:

Welcome to World of Banished!

Main Menu

Nilla--Funsted; Industry Mining in the North

Started by Nilla, June 12, 2018, 01:37:02 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gatherer

Short term solution to your excess meat problems could be to not process beef into smoked meat.
There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

Nilla

I know. And you are probably right. There´s a lot of beef, so I don´t process all, but somehow I also find, it´s somehow the point, to process food as far as possible. In fact, it´s even worse, than it seems. All these daler, silver and gold (I have more in the ports) mostly come from selling meat.  :-\

Nilla

#47
Since I started to talk about all my meat yesterday, I will go on and tell my strategy for supporting the people. From the beginning I was self sufficient on all food. I grew apples, rye, barley, cabbage, turnips, onions. In summer everyone went out in the woods to pick blueberries and mushrooms. I was increasing the food diversity with trade; bought fruit, I don't grew for apples and blueberries; corn, and wheat for barley,; peppar, beans, potatoes, eggs, crayfish for smoked meat. (This because people get happy from many different kind of food). I also bought salt and sugar to process as much food as possible.

Now after I´ve built some industry and the population increased, I don't grow any vegetables. Sometimes I order vegetables, mainly cabbage but mostly I just buy all vegetables, and some fruit and grain the merchants bring. I try to process as much rye, cabbage, meat and fish as I can. There are 4 meat smoker; one for each; salmon, mutton, beef, venison and a handful farmers workshops. Since there is more beef than the other proteins, I sometimes switch salmon and mutton to beef. (Venison smoker is out in the woods, by the hunter and if it's short on venison, the farmer work as laborer.) If I don't forget, I still send everyone out in the woods to pick wild fruit in late summer.

At the beginning when everyone was uneducated, I bough tools and iron, when a merchant brought some. If I didn't get enough, I also produced iron and iron tools. Since I was short on textiles and clothes, I bought cheap clothes and leather. Now I buy some raw materials, if they are brought; iron ore, stone, clay, sand, leather. I also use to buy lumber and sometimes other things, if I´m short on them; I´ve just bought some coke, that I normally produce.

First picture
You can see the content in my ports. I have 2 small and I've just built my 3. big port. The small port left also contain some cheese, not shown on the picture. I "buy" all coins, gold and silver I can get. I barter trade some smoked meat also to the low price, just to get rid of it, but usually I sell to the higher price or use coins as payment. Now I use to trade with most merchants. The only one who's always sent away without any business, is the merchant who just want to pay good for wood products.

Second picture
The industrial area grows slowly. I should have calculated better as I planned it. The blast furnace can support more than 3 blacksmiths. If I locate more of them here, houses will land in more than 1 black circle. One solution would be to build some of the Nordic blacksmiths without black circle, but it feels a beet like "cheat", so I'll find something else.

Nilla

I promised some numbers in that other thread. First a small recap of my basic thoughts about balancing a trade economy: (Sorry, this is very long and only interesting for "balancing freaks" and I hope @Discrepancy, who has to do the admirable, difficult job!)

Most things are more expensive in the North. A worker need food, fuel, clothes and tools to a value of about 450 each year (vanilla 150). But he also need to support children, students, vendors, traders, teachers, builders, laborers and other not directly producing people. I just looked into my game. I have 101 producing adults, 135 children and students, 49 not directly producing adults. I don't know, how representative this is for all games from everyone, but to me and my playstyle, it's quite normal, especially with the modded happiness system and "real time ageing". Each producing person need to support almost 2 more people.

If we look at your industrial buildings @Discrepancy, with the thought, that it should be possible to run them, as a real industry; produce something with a profit, sell it and buy what you need. Each chain need a profit of at least 1300 for each worker. And I don't think, it can work, if none of the chains would bring more than this. You also need to finance building materials to expand (if you buy the material or produce them yourself doesn't matter). I don't say, that every step need this profit; but if the average of each worker in the chain is between 1300 and 2000, I think it would be challenging enough, but still possible to run large scale.

There's another very important thing; logistic (as always in Banished). The production from these "chains" variates much depending on location of the sites and how much raw material is available close. This big industrial store for all these materials doesn't really work, unless you locate every site from every production chain close to every market and that's not possible. (Only taking the consumers goods away, doesn't help much). I'll just tell two examples from this game.

Because of the happiness system and the huge black circle from the blast furnace, I decided to locate it a bit apart from other "black buildings". I built an industrial market close, because I wanted a lot of iron ore, coke and charcoal close. I also built industrial markets close to the blacksmiths/coker. After a while, I wondered, why there was no iron in the store close to the blacksmiths. I noticed, that almost all of my 2000 iron was stored in the market close to the blast furnace (but nothing in the close industrial barn). I have now replaced the large store with a small wagon vendor. It works a bit better but the worker still prefer this wagon over the close barn. (first picture)

I have one large nice specialized stockpile for clay and sand close to these pits and the industries, who needs these materials close to it. It worked very well, until I built these markets in the "iron area". Now the brick and glassmaker often need to get their material in these far away stores. When the population now starts to grow, I want to test the oil/flax chains on the other side of the village (I've started to prepare the land) but I don't think it will make much sense. The flax products will land in the markets in the "iron area" and markets in the flax area will be full of iron and ores. Some more specialisation of the markets is needed, to make this work good in a large scale.

The following numbers are based on this village. As I've said; the logistic isn't perfect but also not all too miserable.(I have worked a bit active with "fake demolishing" and other tricks)

Let's start with a couple of sites, I've turned off after realizing, that it's bad economy to let them run. I hope, I haven't miscalculated anything, but no guarantee ;) :

Lumbermill: I've already talked about it in that other thread and I'm actually using it, but mostly for firewood. One worker makes between 300 and 400 firewood depending on how much logs there are in the area. It's the same as the close chopper. (Also no good economy but you need firewood and I have no intention to export it)

Pottery; Input clay and charcoal; (the other options will not be much different)
production 100
input 20, output 32, profit 3 each
profit site: 300
suggestion: increase the price of pottery, maybe also the number of pottery produced in each "batch"  (3 clay+1 ind.fuel -> 6 pottery worth 12; input 20, output 72, profit each 8,7, estimated production 150, profit site 1300. This is to me the lowest reasonable numbers. If we also include digging for clay, that's not very profitable, and production of the fuel, it ought to be higher; a price for the pottery in the range 15-20)

Silver
Silver Mine: production average 30 (one year 36, next 24) profit 600
Silver furnace:
production 130
input 28, output 40, profit 3 each
profit site: 400
suggestion: I like, that you only get little silver ore out of the mine, but you need to get more silver from each ore and also increase the value of silver ore. (Silver is also used as coin in the North, so unless you negotiate with Tom, it's set to 10, which I find alright) Price silver ore 40, 1 ore+1 fuel-> 10 silver, input 48, output 100, profit 5,2 each, estimated production 325, profit 1700, average profit mine+process 1450. (This is also the lowest to me reasonable numbers, since you can only build one silver mine and the merchant bring very little, the profit could even be set higher than this)

This is long enough, I have more numbers from the iron/tool chain, that's in a good range. I'll write about it after the football game. Our team starts soon.

First picture
All iron in the red marked market, no iron in the blue marked market and barn.  :P

Second picture

Latest extention to the settlement. Here I make no efforts to make the people happy. I see no large difference, when I compare the production here and in the happy part of the settlement. But I haven't run it for long, so I can't say much yet.

Nilla

...continue: no good game but at least won... :)

Tools
I made the calculation on hardened tools. Steel tools has a little lower profit but also very profitable. I produce both. Hardened tools need more charcoal/coke and if I'm a bit short, I produce more steel tools. The production of steel tools is slightly higher. I use charcoal in some sites, coke in some. I made calculations for both, it's no big difference in economy, but  charcoal a little bit better. Because of these logistic problems I described, the production variates a lot. I have seen 150 but also less than 100. The average is about 120 hardened tools.

The premises for the calculations are, that you produce all raw material yourself. It is more profitable to buy some material, even to order it with ordering fee. The real profit is in the last step(s), not in producing raw material/fuel. That's the weakness with these numbers.

To produce these 120 tools worth 12 000 in trade you'll need (if you use coke):
120 iron ore     
240 coal 
68 logs

To process these material in different sites, you need 5,9 people:
1,7 blacksmiths
2,5 miner
0,8 forester
0,9 coke burner

The average profit for each worker is about 1500

Or if you use charcoal:
120 iron ore
128 logs

You need 5,6 worker in different sites:
1,7 blacksmiths
1,1 miner
1,2 forester
0,6 chopper
1 charcoal burner

The average profit is about 1600 for each worker

I've also produced some iron using lime. But it's not profitable (unless you buy material)

1 lime replaces one iron ore, otherwise it's the same numbers. The profit of the Hill Lime Kiln is low;
production 140
input 16, output 24, profit 2 each
profit site 280

rkelly17

Quote from: Nilla on June 18, 2018, 04:11:54 AM
I noticed, that almost all of my 2000 iron was stored in the market close to the blast furnace (but nothing in the close industrial barn).

@Nilla, I have never played the North and don't always pay attention to buildings I don't use, so I could be way off base here. Is the North different from vanilla, CC, etc.? I am used to iron going into storage yards, not barns. Is the industrial barn a special kind of barn that stores things that usually go in storage yards?

Nilla

Yes, @rkelly17; the North is very much different from all other mods. It changes the gameplay in different ways; other "flags", other production chains with other numbers of production and trade values, changed trade, where merchants pay a different price for the goods in barter trade, introduction of coins, introduction of this new "happiness system" (can also be used outside the North but is here fully applied) different climates, startconditions and maps.........

It's partly a different game. At least you need to rethink your old ways of playing (no use to make firewood for export as example, it's one of the least profitable goods). It's well balanced and the buildings are really, really nice, often made with real old buildings as model. One disadvantage (or not, depending on how you see it); because of its own flags and limits, it's not compatible to all other mods.

Tom Sawyer

#52
Actually it is compatible to most other mods from WOB and many are even patched by the North mod to work balanced and with special resources. Suitable and recommended mods are listed on banishedventures.com/north-compatible. :)

Reading your last posts I agree with the point that meat output can be lowered. Especially beef, together with an increased milk output and reworked tailoring or use of leather.

Discrepancy

@Nilla:) thank you very much for the detailed posts and production numbers, they help a lot.

Nilla

You're welcome @Discrepancy. I'm happy, that you can use some of it. I don't expect you to follow my advice completely, it's just something to think about. It's your mod and it will be best, if you follow your vision. You know, I like to look at the game this way. I make these calculations, I write about here anyway. Not quite as detailed but as an approximate estimation.

I just saw, that I didn't fully answer your question @rkelly17. I got caught up by praising the North. You asked about the industrial barn. It's not a part of the North, it belongs to the DS Industrial Mining Mod. This version is adapted to the North, but I think there's also a version for "vanilla gameplay". This barn holds everything (as far as I can see) except food, also "stockpile stuff".

First picture
Now I have two fully developed industrial areas. In one of them (on the right side of picture) all people are happy. Their houses are not in more than one black circle. (I have tested; some people stay happy, if they live inside two black circles, but not all of them. Additional happiness buildings have no effect.) Of course, this makes the distance between workplace and house longer. In the other industrial area on the upper left side, I haven't bothered about happiness, but everyone live close.

I have compared the production in the different sites. Generally I can say:

Happy people (5*) who live a bit away from their workplaces produce more than half happy (3*) close to their workplaces. But access to close raw material is the most important thing.

The biggest difference shows the mine, who only has a small input of logs, similar access in both areas. Average production for 1 worker; happy :95, unhappy :75. The blast furnaces also show similar difference, if there's enough ore and charcoal in the wagon close to the "happy" site: 190 - 150.

The difference between the blacksmiths are not big; 120 - 110. But the people have to search more for material in the "happy" area. The production of the coke oven in the "unhappy" area is even slightly higher 195 -200. The production of coal is too low in the "happy area".

Conclusion: Also with these large happiness detraction circles; happiness pays off, even when the workers have to live a bit away. I find the DS circles generally a bit too big (blast furnace much too big). But on the other side; the Nordic circles are sometimes a bit too small. I find @Discrepancy and @Tom Sawyer; if you could "meet the half way"; both make some changes and land somewhere in between, it would be perfect.

Second picture
I have a question about the coal pits. What are your thoughts about them @Discrepancy? They seem to have a minimum of 3 miners, it works with less, but you can't set it to less than 3 but up to 8. There are only 2 miners working at the same time. The output doesn't change much, if you use 2, 3, 4 or more miners. When I use 3 or more the others, work as laborers anyway. If one isn't far away on laborer's work, he might "jump in" at the pit, when one of the 2 needed miners takes a brake (go idling) but 2 miners make the highest output for each worker.

A small request, not at all important; just something to increase the "designing options": It would be nice to have a "mirrored" version of the Industrial Blacksmith, so you could build them "back to back". I would have liked, to place the 4 I have on this picture that way. (Is anyone surprised to hear such a request from me? ;) )


Discrepancy

The coal bell pit I have made require 3 minimum miners because someone has to use the pulley system at ground level to get the other worker out of the pit.
But, there is an issue because I had only included 2 use_points for them to work at, I have fixed this for next version.

Nilla

I have now started to test the rest of the DS Industrial buildings. Flax-linen-oil; very nice buildings, all fitting so good together, but unfortunately; an unprofitable chain. Another problem is that linen can't be used to make clothes in any of the Nordic buildings. There's also one weird thing/bug: It looks like people can eat flax but not linseed, at lest there are some flax in the houses but no linseed. The opposite could make sense, linseed mixed in bread, porridge and cereals but I've never heard of eating flax.

Flax planter and harvester
The idea with two different workers is very nice. Just a pity, that they go on to work their area in winter. I tried to micromanage and turned the sites off in winter but in this larger settlement, where I don't micromanage any fields or orchards, I forgot to turn them on in time. So now they do their tedious "work" also in winter. These two workers make less flax than two farmers on fields. The flax grows fast, so one farmer can manage quite a large field. The farmers do laborers work in winter and need less space. The output on trade value from a flax farmer or worker is low. This wouldn't matter much, if the following steps were very much more profitable, but I'm sorry to say; they are not.

Output flax harvester/planter: 280/2 =140 (and a few berries or mushrooms) ; trade value ~300
Flax farmer: 200; trade value 400

Flax weaver

This site makes something, I've been told, can't be done, as I suggested a lumber mill, that makes something like 2 lumber and 3 firwood from each log: One input, two different products out. Here 10 flax gives 1 linen and 8 linseed. I suppose you use some ingenious "trick" @Discrepancy . Maybe if I can't understand it fully, it would be nice to hear a bit more about this. Now I see in my numbers, that the output isn't exactly 1 +8 but pretty close: calculated 280 flax -> 208 lineseed + 28 linen
input 560, output 1056
profit site 500

Oil kiln
Another extraordinary building, with its tower. I love the look! So far I've only made lamp oil from linseed.
production 400
input 20, output 36, profit 1,8 each
profit site 720

If we instead use tallow and estimate the same production, the numbers are alright, especially as tallow is a by product from meat and textile production, opposite to linseed, that need two unprofitable steps to get;
input 8, output 36, profit each 3,1
profit site 1240

Suggestions to make the flax/oil chains profitable for export is difficult. There are so many different components to consider. I hear people say: Why bother? "The buildings are so nice, the flax fields are so beautiful, the flax workers are fun to watch. They are worth to build just because of that". Maybe it's true, but since they are called "Industrial" XXXX, I find that they also should work as industries; produce something with a profit, suitable for trade.

I will think a bit more about it and make some suggestions later or tomorrow.

First picture
Flax area.

Second picture
I'm also trying my "old Steckenpferd" autotrade. It's a good opportunity with all the export tools. I autotrade for food, salt and sugar in the small ports. But why does the merchant only want silver, gold and pennig and not much daler? :P :-\

Third picture
Here I want to build a "town". You can see, that  I haven't regulated the food import yet; I've bought too much. But the amount of daler gets down, so it looks to be an allright balance over all.

Discrepancy

haha, you are picking up all kinds of faults :) thank you.


I was aware of the low value production of the flax-linen chain. that is going to be re-done, thanks for the reminder.

Nilla

Quote from: Discrepancy on June 21, 2018, 06:11:27 AM
haha, you are picking up all kinds of faults :) thank you.
When I'm testing, I'm testing. I try too look at as many things I can. When I see something odd, I look closer into it and tell. :) I've seen one more thing, that might disturb other people more than me. The Bannis take shortcuts through the corners of the Bryggen Houses. I'm not sure it can be changed, if you want them to be buildable the way they are.

It isn't easier to suggest a good balance for the flax/oil chain today, but I'll make a try. There are many other possibilities, maybe you'll find something better. (I also hope, that there are no miscalculations, sometimes I simply "think too fast" and forget something)  :-\ :-[

First you need to decide; which product is the best suitable export product? I like "historically correct" products. Things that have paid an important part in the economy of a region I know of, somewhere in Northern Europe. One region in North/Middlesweden called Hälsingland, is known for its flax and linen production. The farmers and linen producers became wealthy and built big, beautiful farmhouses; called Hälsingegårdar. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1282 (maybe also an inspiration for modders) So I would say: linen would be the natural export product. Linseeds as by product could be eatable food or as raw material for oil. So I would primary increase the profit for linen.

To increase the profit, we can increase the price of the product, the production or both. I can't produce linen clothing in this game but I find, it should be possible. So even if it would be the easiest way to go; I don't think, that we can raise the price of linen too much, it would mess up clothes production. Wool and leather have a slightly higher price in the North than vanilla, (8/5, 12/10). A value of 10 for linen could fit.

If we let the weaver work with the same speed as now, but instead make 8 linen and 8 linseed from 10 flax, it could work without too many changes. I had an annual production around 200 linseed. This suggestion would give an output with a value of 200*10+200*4 = 2800. If it needs two worker (1 flax farmer and one weaver) to produce this, it would give an average profit of the reasonable 1400 for each worker. You would need 280 flax. This means the production must increase about 50% on the fields and 100% for the harvester. To make a reasonable profit, also for the farmer, the price for flax could be increased to 4. It would still be less than vegetables but at least a flax farmer can support himself and a child. (I just saw that you can put more than one farmer in this planter/harvester location. That makes it more reasonable to set the output of a farmer of a field and a farm to about the same value.)

The only change I would make by the Oil Kiln is to set the input of linseed (and nuts) equal to tallow. It will make linseed and nuts a bit less profitable than tallow to process. Still no great export product, but at least profitable enough to make it an option.

First picture
Here @Tom Sawyer is an argument against storing meat in the hunter's lodge. Until recently I had no herbalists in this village. The herbs I had, came from laborers and used for export. Everyone lived close to a market or wagon vendor and the health was on 5 stars all the time. Then I discovered 1 person without any stars at all. Of course I needed to check out why. He came from this forester house. It is well in the circle of the wagon vendor but the hunter is closer. I have looked into the forester house and never seen anything except proteins; a lot of different proteins, that are carried out in the woods. The izbas closer to the wagon all have a big variety of food.

Second picture
My new town eveloves. One block is done, with a bakery in the yard. I didn't know what the townsfolk should do for a living, until I thought of the surrounding mountains. It will be a mining community. The town might look a bit too tidy, but it will be a "gold digger town".  We'll see if they can make their living out of it.

Nilla

I'll now try to go back to one of my initial goal for this town; learning to write shorter blogs.  :-[ :-\

First picture
The happiness system still puzzles me; this family live only inside 2 happiness radii (chapel, wagon vendor) and are members of a church. The parents who have lived with good conditions all their lives are happy, the children not. This is a "rule". I've seen it several times as I've built a new village part: Adults are very easy to please, children not so.

The conclusion I make from this and other observations; the Bannis have a long memory. They remember good things and bad things for a long time.

Second picture
I find the silver anvil for spiritual happiness too cheap and small compared to the chapel. I don't think it's supposed to be built on a place like this.  ;) :-\

The missing ½ star of happiness comes from the people in the second industrial area, where all houses are close to "black industries". I'm sure it will improve as children start to move out and the number of people in each house gets down.

Third picture
This location might be more appropriate.

There are room for more mines in this area. Gold mining isn't "super profitable". It wouldn't work to support a whole settlement, just digging for gold, but at least a miner can support himself and one child.