Nilla- Hitchco, testing the latest version of the North

[Nilla]

I downloaded the beta of the latest version of @Tom Sawyer´s very nice mod and started a new game. It was quite late, so I didn't get very far, but I have a few impressions:

First I had a crash.

I had a bunch of mods loaded, so I suppose there's some real conflict, but it really doesn't matter. I wanted to make this test "pure", with only the Nordic mod, anyway. After all other mods were gone, there were no more problems.

As usual, I didn't put much effort in choosing "the right" map. I like these big lakes, and I like this Micky Mouse lake especially. The starting position seemed alright, so the first map was started. Later I discovered, that it was a small mistake. There are 7 children. That's too much with an impossible start with only 6 adults. I also made the mistake, to start to build up a tool production right after the first house and barn. I should have started with the school, to get at least some of them educated. Now I didn't and I have to bother with all these uneducated, who mess up my tool production, because as usual; the uneducated prefer the professions of blacksmiths and tailors and with this mod; they like smelter, too. 

In any case; I have produced some tools and clothing. I'm not sure how much material was spoiled by the uneducated and can certainly not say anything about the production numbers. But I can say, that the long production chain makes it more complicated to get tools, but as you can see; not impossible. 

First picture

Map seed and settings. If you look carefully in the snow, you might see the iron spots.

Second picture

I have started to build houses for the uneducated as far away from the tool production area as possible.

[Tom Sawyer]

Nice to see you at a new map with the test version. I hope your Hitchco will not be a Hitchcock thriller for me...

In this version you don't need to care about uneducated blacksmiths and tailors. They have the same penalty of 3/4 like the other professions. I changed it in this way because there is no possibility to control this issue and it was annoying for the player.

[Whoyou13]

cannot be unseen, the map looks like mickey mouse.

[Nilla]

Nice to see you at a new map with the test version. I hope your Hitchco will not be a Hitchcock thriller for me...

In this version you don't need to care about uneducated blacksmiths and tailors. They have the same penalty of 3/4 like the other professions. I changed it in this way because there is no possibility to control this issue and it was annoying for the player.

We will see, it's the random name given from start, maybe it's an omen! 

So you say, all production sites have the same uneducated penalty? Good to know. I was wondering a bit, that I managed to produce some tools at the beginning with so many uneducated. It doesn't matter much now, the initial uneducated are getting old and I don't intend to take any nomads.

I went on playing yesterday. I know my weakness; my threads have a tendency of being too long and I guess this one will be, too. So here is the short version:

I've played about 10 years. These are my impression so far.

1. It's hard! 

2. Toolproduction works.

3. The new trading values are surely interesting!

And here is the long version:

Tool production is a long chain, involving many people. These people aren't available for other things, like food production. Of cause that makes the game harder at the beginning. You also have to alter the people between the sites a lot more than usually. It's also difficult to control, how much you have in your stores of each component. As I wanted to build my trading port (it's one of the few buildings, that still needs iron) I noticed, that I had processed all iron to steel. It didn't take too long to produce enough iron but still; more difficult than earlier versions. Since I hadn't produced anything in this chain continuously yet, I can't say much to the production numbers. So far it looks alright to me.

I have 2 suggestions to improve the handling of toolmaking:

-Go back to store the materials on stockpiles.
Since they are not shown separately on any menu, you have to search through the barns to look what materials you have, before you have a town hall and that's no fun. Even after the townhall is built, you have to look carefully at the inventory. And that's not so funny either. If the materials were stored on stockpiles, a quick look would be enough to see, that there are a big pile of charcoal, iron bloom or whatever. I don't know, why you changed it in the first place. Until now it didn't matter, but with this long production chain, it's a bit inconvenient.

-Make the menu of the blacksmith larger
Now it contains two lines. If I produce iron, steel and steeltools the same year at the same blacksmith, I can't see how much steeltools he produced. I would like to know.

Now to my first impressions of the trade

I built the trading port, stopped the game, put 1 of each good and took a look. WOW! This is something! (First picture) This will be fun to test!

Than the first merchant, one for export goods arrived and I was chocked! This "son of a bitch" pays less, than these official prizes! What is this! The nice utopia, where the merchant works for nothing; delivering everything you want and demanding the same price, if he sells it as he pays you, if he buys it, is taken away. This greedy capitalistic society, where a merchant wants more then "air and love" (Luft und Liebe as you Germans say) introduced to Banished. What should I say?    .........GREAT IDEA! 

Since I haven't traded much yet, I can't say much to how it works but these are my first thoughts, for what it's worth;

It is probably a very good strategy, to be selfsufficient on as many things as possible, especially on food.

The merchant takes 25%. If you order something, it's another 25 (20?) %. And with these prices, you have this "ordering fee" on everything. It's tough. I can't say yet, if it's too much, if it makes import of larger amount of food just harder or quite impossible. It depends much on how profitable the export goods are. We will see.

The only thing that's worth 1, is selling fish. If fish was too profitable in your very first version @Tom Sawyer , it might be a little bit too bad here. The merchant also have a 100% profit on fish. I said it; He's a bastard! But the same here, the game will show, how it works later.

I also see you have taken away the penning. I don't think that it's a good idea. The merchant shouldn't bring a lot of it, but I had this: One of the early merchants brought 4 chicken. 1 chicken cost 40, 4 chickens 160. I only had 13 daler. Why should I pay 2 daler and give this greedy scoundrel a tip of 40? No way! No chicken!  (I know, I'm the greedy one but at the beginning every fish, every piece of firewood is important and I want to have the feeling, that I'm not wasting anything unnecessarily)

You have also taken away the importance of the money. I will think about the consequences and tell you what I think later.

I also have two suggestions to improvethe trade.
-Give us the penning back, just a few.
-If you take a look into the tradingport menu, it shows the prices the merchant demands, if you buy these things. But you don't want to buy, you want to sell these goods. I would prefere, that the prices the merchant pays are shown. (Don't know if it's possible to change)

I think I made another mistake, as I choose this map; it only have one small stream for crayfish down in the south west. I will expand that way, but it will take some time. Anyhow, I don't think it matters much. Unless you can make booze from fish, it will take some time to get enough surplus of anything to make some alcoholic beverage. So the crayfishparty must wait. We will see if it ever will be possible.

A little something to the pictures

First picture

New prizes if you buy the stuff. The merchant pays you at least 25% less. You can see that I have big health problems. The people have to feed mainly on fish.

Second picture

I've finally built a city hall. I cut in some graphs. I'm still struggling with the health. You can't see it, but I don't build houses for every couple. I will let the population grow slowly. I have ordered sheep, but since I turned his chicken down, the crooked seed and animal merchant doesn't visit me anymore. 

[Tom Sawyer]

- Go back to store the materials on stockpiles.

Yes, it would be very pleasant to see more stored resources on the map. But all of them need different models of nice looking piles. Logs, stones and bricks are suitable, but how to pile charcoal, iron ore and bloom and all upcoming resources such as silver, copper and so on. I will try to model some piles. And maybe some of them on piles and the others in barns. Or not in barns but in special locations, that we don't need to look at all (food) barns here and there. It's old hat to separate barns for food and goods but it could make sense here. We can use the warehouse with or without the 'market function' and barns would be for food and consumable goods only, not for industrial raw materials. Would be realistic and could solve the issue of scattered materials.

... before you have a town hall and that's no fun.

The town hall could be replaced by a suitable smaller (Nordic) building. Just to get the statistics in early game.

- Make the menu of the blacksmith larger

Good idea and a simple fix.

- Give us the penning back, just a few.

There were some reasons to remove the penning because of the new merchants. But it's also possible to keep it with a small amount. I don't want that the player has the feeling to waste anything unnecessarily.

- If you take a look into the tradingport menu, it shows the prices the merchant demands, if you buy these things. But you don't want to buy, you want to sell these goods. I would prefere, that the prices the merchant pays are shown. (Don't know if it's possible to change)

Not possible.

If fish was too profitable in your very first version @Tom Sawyer , it might be a little bit too bad here.

Maybe you are right but lets talk about it when you have played a bit more with the bastards.^^ The idea behind the fish price was that this food is perishable and difficult to trade without loss. That's why the merchants need the high profit. Fruits and veges have a range of 3:2 and grain (not perishable) have the best ratio of 4:3. All suitable trading goods have it. Stockfish could be a typical Nordic product with a good trade ratio (4:3) instead of freshly caught fish (2:1). It's already included in NMT but could be a more important part of the Nordic game.

... the crayfishparty must wait.

Business before pleasure.

[Nilla]

Yes, it would be very pleasant to see more stored resources on the map. But all of them need different models of nice looking piles. Logs, stones and bricks are suitable, but how to pile charcoal, iron ore and bloom and all upcoming resources such as silver, copper and so on. I will try to model some piles. And maybe some of them on piles and the others in barns. Or not in barns but in special locations, that we don't need to look at all (food) barns here and there. It's old hat to separate barns for food and goods but it could make sense here. We can use the warehouse with or without the 'market function' and barns would be for food and consumable goods only, not for industrial raw materials. Would be realistic and could solve the issue of scattered materials.

I suppose, you are right. It would be hard to see the difference between the materials on stockpiles in winter anyway, and the winter is long. Maybe as you say, a special industrial barn is better. If you don't want to put too much work into it, you could use your two smaller barns as model; make them red for "costum goods" and brown for "industrial purposes.

The town hall could be replaced by a suitable smaller (Nordic) building. Just to get the statistics in early game.

I like the idea of a Nordic city hall. The vanilla version doesn't really fit in Nordic surroundings (same as the church and the hospital). I think it should be in the style of your other buildings and than it would need bricks and rooftiles. That's no early materials anyway. So the idea of the industrial barns is better for a more relaxed start.

There were some reasons to remove the penning because of the new merchants. But it's also possible to keep it with a small amount. I don't want that the player has the feeling to waste anything unnecessarily.

If it brings some trouble, that I haven't thought of, it's not such a big thing. It's just me being "stingy". If I think about it; the only time, you have to give this "tip", is if you want to buy chicken (or maybe also if you order some things from the seed and animal merchant). In other cases, I use fish as "small coins" to adjust the deal.

Maybe you are right but lets talk about it when you have played a bit more with the bastards.^^ The idea behind the fish price was that this food is perishable and difficult to trade without loss. That's why the merchants need the high profit. Fruits and veges have a range of 3:2 and grain (not perishable) have the best ratio of 4:3. All suitable trading goods have it. Stockfish could be a typical Nordic product with a good trade ratio (4:3) instead of freshly caught fish (2:1). It's already included in NMT but could be a more important part of the Nordic game.

I think it works with fish worth 1. If you doubled it, it would be to much. A decent fisher produces a trade value of about 600. That's alright. If you doubled it, it would be in the same range as a charcoalburner or a smelter and that would be too much.

I like the idea behind the price difference between selling and buying. And I always thought, that the ideas from @RedKetchup in the NMT, to dry the food was excellent. I would like that (or something similar) included in the Nordic mod. As you said, it would fit historically. Perhaps you could ask him if you could use it. Maybe you could also introduce salt. Not to produce but as a trading good, that had to be imported. Salting was a very common method of preservation and salt was historically one of the main import goods.

You might see @Tom Sayer, that I've changed my mind about some of my initial suggestions, so take it for what it is; thoughts, impressions, a base for discussion. I hope it's what you want and that you don't mind or feel offended.

Now to what I played yesterday.

First picture

It took until year 13, I even had to build a second trading port, but finally the merchant for seeds and animals arrived. The things he brought wasn't perfect, but cherries had shown to grow decent in the past, so I bought the seeds. Unfortunately I forgot to order potatoes, but soon a second merchant arrived with bean- and apple seeds and than I ordered the potatoes. It doesn't look as if the numbers of the crops are changed. Potatoes and apples still seem to be the best vegetable/fruit.

You can see that at this time, I still have problems with health. There is enough food, but I can't increase the stores; it's just enough, not more. Good! 

In the port you see at my picture, I sell logs, venison and fish. I also sell charcoal, iron bloom and steel tools, when I have enough of it. One of the very nice things with the Nordic mod from the first version on was, that there's no obvious "best trading" good. In this version there are even more options. I have no idea, what the best thing is. Presently my strategy is to sell goods, I have a little more of, than I need. As far as I have looked into it; everything brings a decent profit, some more, some less. I have said it before; I'm really impressed of your balancing @Tom Sayer! One example: There were just enough iron ore on the ground to use, until I had enough people to assign a couple of miners. By the way, I like your mine. It has a huge footprint, so it was a little bit hard to find a place for it. But it seems like it never runs out, so it's OK.

Second picture

Here you can see, that things have turned out quite well. There's still no big stores of food, but now at least I feel a little bit more secure. Health has improved a lot. I could buy wheat, herbs (ordered by some merchants) and also some fruit and vegetables (not ordered), that together with my farming products, improved the situation.

One "funny"  thing to tell: The first years of farming, before I could buy the herbs, the harvest was really bad. I was annoyed by these damned farmers. As soon as I started the harvest (at harsh you always have to start the harvest manual, if you want anything from your fields and orchards) they ran away to the herbalist! Every year the same! Of cause they did. I hadn't enough herbs. The few I had, were collected in summer. And to the same time as the harvest should have begun, there were herbs for everyone, also for the farmers. So, the harvest must wait! Up to the herbalist, before someone else take the herbs. 

I´ve lost one star. There have been a lot of deaths; normal old age, but also a lot of childbirth deaths and accidents. The population doesn't grow presently. There are only few young girls and a lot of old bachelors, living at their parents. Have you changed anything here, @Tom Sawyer ? Or maybe these mysterious deaths is the Hitchcock influence..........

[Tom Sawyer]

I want to hear every thought, reasoned or not. I like this discussion. It brings new ideas and better balancing and I'm never offended.

I like the idea of nordic fish processing. It could be stockfish (just dried) and klippfish (with imported salt) and if we want a third product, lye fish / lutefisk ... you know? Maybe too special but the fish factory is now on my list and 3 products with different effort and prices would be perfect. The only thing is that these products are made from cod and not from salmon. But to catch cod in the river would be weird. What do the Nordic experts think?

Town hall, hospital and a church are also on my list. Maybe next version.

To differ the storage buildings by color is a good idea. Anyway, I want to try a few models of piled materials. Maybe in form of open crates with bulk goods such as ore and coal. To see some of these materials on the map would be the best game experience, as you said.

Yes, chickens are the only special trade good that can not exactly paid without pennies (a sheep 3 dalers, a cow 8 dalers, seeds 25). A chicken could be exactly 1 daler instead of 40 penning. But before you use fish as small coins ( ) I will keep the pennings.

Yes, temperature ranges of crops are unchanged to version 3. And I don't have changed anything with the citizens. The required area of the mine is similar to the vanilla mine. It avoids mine entrances close together and if the mountain is to small to place a mine, then there is no ore or coal deposit...

[kid1293]

The river connects to the sea.
Why not make a shore-bound fish-factory?
With possible landing docks.

[Nilla]

I want to hear every thought, reasoned or not. I like this discussion. It brings new ideas and better balancing and I'm never offended.

You will!

I like the idea of nordic fish processing. It could be stockfish (just dried) and klippfish (with imported salt) and if we want a third product, lye fish / lutefisk ... you know? Maybe too special but the fish factory is now on my list and 3 products with different effort and prices would be perfect. The only thing is that these products are made from cod and not from salmon. But to catch cod in the river would be weird. What do the Nordic experts think?

The river connects to the sea.
Why not make a shore-bound fish-factory?
With possible landing docks.

It's a good idea to connect a fish factory to the river, but you don't need cod to process fish. Salmon often was and still is processed; smoked or "gravad" Google says marinated, but it's a special marination with much salt. I have never heard of dried salmon, but other lake fish could be dried; like "lake", burbot (if Google translation is right and yes, lake isn't the water, where the fish swims, but the name of the fish!). Lutfisk, the Swedish name of this dried, and then marinated fish, that we eat at Christmas, is as far as I know made from "lake"/burbot (freshwater fish) or "långa"/ling fish (seewater fish). Maybe it's different in Norway, they might use cod. Maybe @Pangaea knows more.

But also other kind of food; meat, vegetables and fruit were dried or at least the meat, salted. But fish might be a good start.

Yes, chickens are the only special trade good that can not exactly paid without pennies (a sheep 3 dalers, a cow 8 dalers, seeds 25). A chicken could be exactly 1 daler instead of 40 penning. But before you use fish as small coins ( ) I will keep the pennings.

Perhaps the chicken could cost 50, sold in pairs. But with penningar, it doesn't matter.

And I don't have changed anything with the citizens. The required area of the mine is similar to the vanilla mine. It avoids mine entrances close together and if the mountain is to small to place a mine, then there is no ore or coal deposit...

I had the impression that it was bigger. So the mountains at my starting position must have bin unsuitable for mines, not much ore. But I finally found a good place. I had to put it on exactly that spot, one tile right or left didn't work. Random factor, like my many deaths. Or should we say Hitchcock factor in that later case. 

And to that other thread; make a flagpole if you want to. As you say; it's common in our countries.

[Nilla]

I played a few more years. Things have turned out quite well.

First picture

I can now afford my beloved red houses. But the hospital and the townhall in the background doesn't really fit the picture. I'm glad, that you have plans to replace them, @Tom Sawyer. Sure, we have some old stone buildings; churches, castles, big houses, but unless it's really a ruin, they use to have a chalk layer and sometimes paint. Stone ruins often shows traces of that.

I've cut in some graphs: population grows, food store grows, health increases and happiness at least doesn't drop anymore, but the many deaths in a short time, will influence the happiness for some time. I should probably have built a graveyard. 

Second picture

I promised to think a little about the daler. In the latest version you couldn't buy anything without daler, now their importans is smaller.

At the beginning of a game you'll need some to buy seeds and animals. After that, you don't really need any coins. But they are still useful. Now; still early in the game, manpower is valuable. I have to "micromanage" a lot. Especially during the harvest. I can't afford to have many "unproductive" traders. This picture shows very good, the use of daler in this part of the game. I can't exactly remember what I bought from the last merchant, but since there's not much goods left, I suppose it was food (I buy as much grain, I can afford and still some fruit). My only trader hasn't had much time to fill the stores, but I have 100 daler in trading port and can buy 2000 wheat if I want to.

Later in the game, when you want to buy much from each merchant and need more goods in the port, the daler might be helpful, too. You can store a high value in the port, without filling it so much, that you can't buy much goods, before the port is filled to 100%.

Still, the importance of the coins is small. I think it's a pity. You have introduced something new into the game, @Tom Sawyer and I would like it, to be more important, than it is now. What if the merchants give some kind of discount, if you pay with coins? I suppose it could not be made directly but I think with "tricks"; either you pay less for the daler by the export merchant; say 80-90 (there should still be some profit for the merchant left) or the other merchants give you more for the daler you "bought" for 100, say 110-120. Maybe this would need some small adjustment on some of the trading prices/production numbers (it shouldn't be too profitable to trade). Maybe you could think about it.

Third picture

Have you taken away both roots and onions? I have discovered that the gatherers only collect berries, mushrooms and firewood.

You can see my stores. This year, the harvest was really miserable, less than ½ of normal. The temperature didn't once reached 10 C, so there wasn't much to harvest. Still I won't starve, I have food in my stores and if it's getting really bad, I can put more fisher into my fishing docks. I like to have less workers in these kind of plants, that occupies more than one. It's easy to increase the production fast, if needed. 

[Tom Sawyer]

What if the merchants give some kind of discount, if you pay with coins? I suppose it could not be made directly but I think with "tricks"; either you pay less for the daler by the export merchant

I had in mind that a timber merchant for example will pay the best price for logs (12 instead of 9). It would be reasonable because he really wants the material for a special demand and you can make a good deal. It's also possible to let pay the full price by all export merchants in the general post, especially for logs or for more or all kinds of resources. It would remove the new price range if you trade with the export merchants for money. You would lost the control of it if you use auto purchasing in the general post and it would be better to have the specialized post. I should make this timber trading post instead of talking about it since a long time.

Have you taken away both roots and onions? I have discovered that the gatherers only collect berries, mushrooms and firewood.

They are not removed but maybe too rare now. It's a quest for Nordic adventurers: Go to the woods and find out whats happened with onions and roots.

[Nilla]

To the trading post.

Don't spend to much effort @Tom Sawyer on making the autotrading perfect. No bugs, like in the earlier version, but a disadvantage in some cases, doesn't really matter. I promise, I will test it sometime later in this game, but I don't think, I would really want to use it.

Why?

First, if you play the Nordic mod under harsh conditions, you will trade, you need to trade, but I don't think you could support your population mainly with trade; you will not need a lot of trading ports. It's no big trouble to handle a few manually.

Second and most important; now I sell a lot of different goods. (See last picture) I export two categories of goods; high value food (and some fish as loose change)  and the surplus of all other goods that make a decent profit; charcoal, tools, clothes, logs, herbs........... I store a suitable amount of all these things in my ports and when a merchant arrives, who sells something I want, I look into the inventory, to see what I can sell. I can't sell everything every time. I need these things, too. This strategy wouldn't work with autotrading. Autotrading only works, if you have few goods to sell and you must either have a huge overproduction (vanilla firewood) or really not need it (vanilla ale). As far as I see, there are no goods like this in the Nordic mod. Thanks for that!

And to a special timber merchant; I wouldn't want one, that buys mainly logs. It's an important export good at the beginning of the game but now, I still have some in the port, but I seldom sell any. Even if the logs give a decent profit, the space is limited and they are needed for several other purposes. Maybe it would be different, if I used a flat map and spammed it with foresters. It could be worth a try; flat map, only forest-connected production, no farming, no export of "advanced" products. Perhaps it will be my next game. I guess autotrading could work in a case like that. Could be an interesting experiment.

Now, as I speak about trade, I will tell you @Tom Sawyer, I find there are too many export merchants and too few, who sell food. It works, as it is, I get enough food (wheat) but I have to buy a lot each time one arrives, because, it can take years until next time. It would be more convenient, if the food merchant arrived more often. The "exporter" could bring more coins each time to compensate, if he was more rare.

It's a quest for Nordic adventurers: Go to the woods and find out whats happened with onions and roots.

I suppose the reindeer ate them!  No, again, you are so right @Tom Sawyer!  If I go into the woods, I collect berries and/or mushrooms, never roots or onions. I don't even know, if there are any eatable in our forests at all. There's ramson (Bärlauch in German) but here you use the leaves, I think it has small "onions" as root, but I have never picked any. Other roots I've heard of are rather to use by a herbalist for healing, than as food.

Now to the game

First picture

As i stopped the game the day before yesterday, I had a really bad harvest, the summer was cold. The first year yesterday wasn't a bit better. Look at the fields and the temperature! It just turned august, the temperature is 6 C. It never went above 8, the whole summer! These two bad summers in a row did hurt, the stores went down, but maybe it didn't hurt enough! Should it be possible to manage two real bad harvests in a row, without any starvation, playing with the worse possible settings?

Second picture

Here's an explanation to the "lost stars". I've opened the menus of all houses with "young" (or rather unmarried) adults. 10 bachelors and 1 young women. She has something to choose among! 

Third picture

I'm expanding towards the "crayfish party" !  I'm beginning to think it could be possible to get enough surplus, to make some booze! As soon as I've built some houses for the workers, there will be a second "forest node" down south east.

Again I've cut in some graphs. You can see that the food stores went down to about 5000 after the 2 bad harvests. The two following summers where "warm" with good harvest, the food merchant also payed his visit. After the many deaths in a short time the population has started to grow again, slow but constant, just passing 100 inhabitants.

Fourth picture.

Here, together with the old parts of the settlement, you can see the inventory and what I store in the port. The trademenu doesn't look like that. I cut in the left part, to show you everything I sell. Before I went to bed yesterday, I made a check on the production economy. I will take away the iron bloom from the ports. It's no good economy to sell. I must have made a miscalculation, as I looked into it briefly at the beginning.

[Tom Sawyer]

I suppose the reindeer ate them! 

This answer is wrong. The quest has not been completed. You do not get the reward. Maybe another adventurer has more luck.

[Nilla]

Hm!
Since I've bin working all my professional life as an environmental engineer, I ought to have suggested something more obvious, than blaming the innocent beasts! Sorry! I guess I missed my chance, it's up to someone else to find the Right answer! 

[Turis]

The reindeer are eating the onions and roots... my guess.