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Started by solarscreen, May 16, 2014, 07:34:51 PM

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solarscreen

I never had a start up problem or had the game crash on me so I'm going to revert my game install back to 1.00 and play some new maps from there until the official standalone patch is released.

However, we may not see a standalone patch.  Steam provides a good way for the dev to keep track of his game players, issues, and a way to ensure the patches get pushed out.  I may be wrong but with attention being pulled in other directions, simpler is easier.

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slink

We had better see a standalone patch.  Just saying, you know?   ???

Kaldir

I don't see why an official patch wouldn't be both Steam and Standalone. The beta patch being Steam-only is something completely different than an official patch, and could have several valid (imho) reasons.

When the patch arrives, it will be for all, I'm sure.

solarscreen

Quote from: Kaldir on May 17, 2014, 05:59:54 AM
I don't see why an official patch wouldn't be both Steam and Standalone. The beta patch being Steam-only is something completely different than an official patch, and could have several valid (imho) reasons.

When the patch arrives, it will be for all, I'm sure.

My feeling comes from this:

You have to make your program or patch first, then add in the steam code.  Just as easy to compile without the steam as it is with.  So there's only a few reasons why no standalone beta.

1.  He didn't want to pay for the bandwidth needed to supply standalone beta update files.
2.  He wanted to use the existing Steam infrastructure to deliver the beta update and capture input.
3.  He is only going to supply a Steam update and is using that system now to supply the beta update.

Now, with that in mind also think about the absolute silence from him and his moderator on the SRS website and I think he is simplifying his life and this game as he moves on to new projects and other things.
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Kaldir

#4
I suspect the 2nd (or maybe 1st) option was indeed why he only made the Steam beta patch.

On the other hand, he:
1. dedicated some years of his life to making this game;
2. chose to have both a standalone and Steam edition;
3. bothered to give out a steam code to those who bought the standalone edition;
4. explicitely chose to have a DRM-free edition of his game;
5. created and distributed the 1.0.1 beta patch for the standalone game;
6. actually listens to his community, appearent from the changes in the 1.0.2 beta patch.

With that in mind, I seriously doubt he would already abandon a part of his community by not updating the game for them. And I doubt he will risk the negative publicity and potential legal issues. Especially if he wants to get new projects going under SRS.

His silence is probably mostly due to the large amount of work that goes into support and debugging. I guess he seriously underestimated that, like he more often underestimated the amount of time things take. And the moderator was just a bad choice, I guess.

All ofcourse just my speculations.

slink

I will never, ever, buy anything from him again if he uses bait-n-switch on us with Banished.  Tarn Adams is happy with my annual donations, which are several times annually what I paid once for Banished.  If Luke is so hot to to program for game machines and/or an online captive market, I will let him go without remorse.

If, however, he is kicking back and drinking some wine while he ponders how to make his most recent patch work correctly, I can understand that.  Or beer.  Either one.  Doesn't matter, as long as the final patch arrives for non-Steam users, eventually.   ;)

Pythias

I am sure he'll provide a patch for us.  I'm just annoyed at the lack of information and the inability to participate in the beta testing of this new patch.  He said a few weeks, but it looks like this patch created a few more issues which could well push the release date back.  I'd have preferred he release a patch that fixes specific issues, and then a part b patch that addresses the rest.

Of course this is all new to him too, I'm guessing and he'll learn assuming he keeps his focus on Banished.  I'm a little worried about that too, based off some of his comments.

mariesalias

I am positive that the patch will be released for everyone! If he wanted his game to be just Steam, he would have made it just Steam.

While there are some differences in coding between the two, for patches/updates it isn't as huge as difference as you might think (judging by other games that use both methods), and will not be a huge deal to write up the stand-alone patch version.

There are some very good reasons to release the beta for the patch on Steam and not everywhere.

1. He has more control over the number of users/testers.
2. It has to be opted into and many/most Steam users are familiar with testing beta updates already.
3. It has its own built in forum for feedback/complaints. The more savvy people will post their bugs at both forums, which may help differentiate between game errors and user errors.
4. He does not have every user updating to the beta patch without really understanding that it IS a beta patch and what that means. Many people see a patch or update and just jump in without checking to see that it is complete or in testing. And then many people don't understand that testing an update may mean that it could break things more.
5. Because of #4, he gets to minimize all the complaints and QQ that would otherwise come in when something might break with the beta patch. Steam users have to actually opt into it, so presumably, they understand the risks... well most of them. ;p So we can assume there will be much less of the "the update" broke my game!" vague complaints.

From a testing POV, it makes a lot of sense to use the Steam opt-in Beta testing system.

As Kaldir pointed out, Luke actually does listen to the community which is more then many game producers do. He is mostly silent but as he listens, I don't really mind it. I'd rather see results then have a chatty developer. :) 

I have been following Banished development for years and Luke never appeared as the type of developer who would be jumping into conversations on forums and such. He is devoted to the project and over the years has instilled in me a sense of his integrity and commitment to Banished. I can not even imagine him now abandoning part of his game in favor of another part. The game is his baby, or babies might be a better analogy in this sense (Steam and Stand-alone). I could not imagine him abandoning one twin in favor of the other.

I believe he did say that he would release the patch for everyone once it was stable?

slink

Quote from: mariesalias on May 18, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
I am positive that the patch will be released for everyone! If he wanted his game to be just Steam, he would have made it just Steam.

While there are some differences in coding between the two, for patches/updates it isn't as huge as difference as you might think (judging by other games that use both methods), and will not be a huge deal to write up the stand-alone patch version.

There are some very good reasons to release the beta for the patch on Steam and not everywhere.

1. He has more control over the number of users/testers.
2. It has to be opted into and many/most Steam users are familiar with testing beta updates already.
3. It has its own built in forum for feedback/complaints. The more savvy people will post their bugs at both forums, which may help differentiate between game errors and user errors.
4. He does not have every user updating to the beta patch without really understanding that it IS a beta patch and what that means. Many people see a patch or update and just jump in without checking to see that it is complete or in testing. And then many people don't understand that testing an update may mean that it could break things more.
5. Because of #4, he gets to minimize all the complaints and QQ that would otherwise come in when something might break with the beta patch. Steam users have to actually opt into it, so presumably, they understand the risks... well most of them. ;p So we can assume there will be much less of the "the update" broke my game!" vague complaints.

From a testing POV, it makes a lot of sense to use the Steam opt-in Beta testing system.

As Kaldir pointed out, Luke actually does listen to the community which is more then many game producers do. He is mostly silent but as he listens, I don't really mind it. I'd rather see results then have a chatty developer. :) 

I have been following Banished development for years and Luke never appeared as the type of developer who would be jumping into conversations on forums and such. He is devoted to the project and over the years has instilled in me a sense of his integrity and commitment to Banished. I can not even imagine him now abandoning part of his game in favor of another part. The game is his baby, or babies might be a better analogy in this sense (Steam and Stand-alone). I could not imagine him abandoning one twin in favor of the other.

I believe he did say that he would release the patch for everyone once it was stable?

That makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation.  Steam users have to opt in?  What do you think non-Steam users have to do?  Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically?  That doesn't happen, let me assure you.  Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent.  Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.

And yes, he said that we would all get the patch when he was done with it, whenever that is, and if he keeps his word, which @solarscreen suggested he would not.  Thus the fire on the water.   ;)

Kaldir

Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 12:48:01 PMThat makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation.  Steam users have to opt in?  What do you think non-Steam users have to do?  Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically?  That doesn't happen, let me assure you.  Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent.  Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.
It's not so much that Steam users are wiser, but that Steam has a beta framework available. Steam users that enable that will know (even if they ignore it) that it is a beta option, and not the regular one. If Luke put a beta patch up for download here, plenty of users (no, not all) will just read patch, and download it. Downloading from a site feels different from opting in to a beta system like Steams. And the Steam system means you don't have to be computer savvy to install that beta patch.

solarscreen

Let me weigh in on this subject again, since I started it...
Above all, I am not disparaging the dev or doubting his word.

HOWEVER:

I do think it is possible that Steam will be the sole outlet for this game in the future.

I hope I am wrong and Luke continues to make his UNPRECEDENTED drm free version of the game available.

But, he is a VERY busy man and one that prefers to keep things sane, reasonable, and simple.  I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT SENTIMENT.  Good for him.

I just don't see any reason not to release the beta just like he released the emergency patch for people who could not even play the game.

Twice the feedback - twice the testing - twice the attention for a successful correction of issues.  Win - Win.

BUT, in the end, it is his game, his life, his problem.  I like what we have and think it could go much further in the future.  It was also a lot of work and very stressful.


REGARDLESS - I am currently playing back on 1.0.0...

... and I'm noticing the priority tool doesn't seem to working as well?  Hmmm, maybe the patch has more to it than just crash and startup fixes.
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slink

Quote from: Kaldir on May 18, 2014, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 12:48:01 PMThat makes no sense whatsoever, since most of the non-Steam users I know are older people, and more computer savvy than many of the so-called modern generation.  Steam users have to opt in?  What do you think non-Steam users have to do?  Just turn on the computer and it downloads and updates itself automatically?  That doesn't happen, let me assure you.  Whatever his reason(s), it isn't because the average Steam user is older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or more intelligent.  Maybe it is, in fact, because on the average they are not those things.
It's not so much that Steam users are wiser, but that Steam has a beta framework available. Steam users that enable that will know (even if they ignore it) that it is a beta option, and not the regular one. If Luke put a beta patch up for download here, plenty of users (no, not all) will just read patch, and download it. Downloading from a site feels different from opting in to a beta system like Steams. And the Steam system means you don't have to be computer savvy to install that beta patch.

Are you telling me that no Steam user ever figures "What the hell, might as well", and downloads a beta patch, to their subsequent dismay?  The only thing Luke gains is possibly a legal disclaimer, and since nothing at all on your computer is affected, except for games saved subsequent to the patch, the disclaimer disclaims responsibility for nothing at all.  What fool runs an game upgrade without saving a copy of the un-patched game and all of the saves, anyway?

Basically, he has more Steam users than non-Steam users and he is putting his effort into pleasing the greater number of users since he is splitting his efforts between Banished and some other projects.  That's all it is.  Remember, he isn't used to customer support.  He said himself that whenever in the past he finished a game console game, it was finished, and he went on to the next project.  Life was simpler for him then, and he has expressed a wish to return to that simplicity.  Whereas I have no desire whatsoever to be limited by a game machine or by an online game service.  Caveat venditor.

mariesalias

Sorry, I was not trying to imply that Steam users were more mature or smarter than non-Steam users!

I have played so many games over the years that I have seen people just blindly update or patch many, many times! And then complain about it when their game breaks or acts up. Problem is they just complain and don't actually post bug reports that could help.

So I do think it makes sense to do the testing for a patch in a somewhat-controllable environment. While many Banished players do seem to be more mature and savvy then the general populace of gamers (no offence intended to anyone), not using or using Steam is not a fair way to judge this. Wile there are many Steam users who are younger and immature, there are also many older Steam users, as well. They just tend not to QQ on the forums and such so are perhaps less visible. On the other hand, most younger gamers I know do not yet have Steam, though this is not a huge number of people so I can't really draw any conclusions from it.

And saying this, I have to laugh because my seven-year-old has his own Steam account and games. But he never interacts socially with the internet or anyone on it except family. :D  I will add, since i have taken flack for letting him have his own computer before, that his computer desk is directly next to mine and he is always supervised while on it. He already wishes to learn how to program so he can make mods for Spore, Portal/2, Minecraft, and Starcraft 2, and as he wanted to learn to read last year so he could play more advanced games and now excels at it, I have no doubt he will be programming in the next couple years. By the time he is a teen (or sooner) I have no doubt that he will be a more computer-savvy person then I am! My personal aim is to make sure he is a responsible and considerate internet user, which sadly so many young people today are not.

Anyway, one thing I have no doubt of is that most (if not all) of the posters who post here and on the SRS forum are older, wiser, kinder, more educated, more experienced, or(and) more intelligent then one generally finds on most gaming forums! I have to say though, from my experience, you guys are the exception, not the rule. And not something Luke or any game developer can count on. :)

Forgive me for not placing quotations around the quote from you, but ! was afraid it might sound sarcastic, which would be the opposite of my intention. 


slink

Good thing you didn't put quotes around it since you added the word "and".   ;D

mariesalias

Quote from: slink on May 18, 2014, 01:17:00 PM
What fool runs an game upgrade without saving a copy of the un-patched game and all of the saves, anyway?
...

Basically, he has more Steam users than non-Steam users and he is putting his effort into pleasing the greater number of users since he is splitting his efforts between Banished and some other projects.  That's all it is.  Remember, he isn't used to customer support.  He said himself that whenever in the past he finished a game console game, it was finished, and he went on to the next project.  Life was simpler for him then, and he has expressed a wish to return to that simplicity.  Whereas I have no desire whatsoever to be limited by a game machine or by an online game service.  Caveat venditor.

Unfortunately many, many, many gamers do not make backups. I have been active on too many gaming forums over the years, and this is a near- constant condition! People get upset, even furious, because their games/saves got messed up or destroyed and they did not make a backup.

I have seen no numbers on whether he has more Steam users vs Stand Alone users. Or of how accurate those numbers could be, for instance I have both the Stand Alone version and the Steam version active. Do I count as one or both?

And I do think Luke may be missing the old simplicity of being able to release a game and be done with it. But he made the change to be independent and was successful with his first offering, and I can not see him going back to working in a corporate setting again! At least, I have not read anything to suggest he is contemplating such. This type of situation may be one reason he makes so few public statements. In the gaming world, it is so easy for everyone to dissect what developers say and construe it to mean so many different things. I can not think of a game, off-hand, where this does not happen. It does become a no-win situation. As anything you say is considered written-in-stone or as a promise, but then everything is taken to have different meanings by different people. The American-English language is wonderful and terrible in its ability to convey so many different meanings with the same words.

That Luke was actually able to finish the game and released it in such a polished state speaks volumes about him as a developer! I have known independent game developers in the past, and even worked with a couple, and just making it to the end with a finished product is a huge endeavor. Especially if you don't go the kick-starter/early access type of route. I seriously can not see him abandoning half of his game! He does not even need to be doing this patch as most of it is not game-breaking really. He really could just move on to the modding aspect. He really is showing us how much he cares about this game with his actions. He may not have the social niceties that everyone might wish for, but he is committed the game, that much is obvious. :)

I do however, believe that once he gets Banished as stable as he wants it to be, he will move on to the modding pack, and then he will be done with the game. At least for awhile, while he works on a new project or two. I believe with his next game release he will make sure he has people in place to handle some of the aspects that have taken him by surprise this time. So the next release will not be as stressful a process as this one has been for him. He strikes me as a smart man who will learn from past experiences.