World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: irrelevant on March 18, 2015, 07:09:29 PM

Title: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: irrelevant on March 18, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
With this town I will be challenging myself in a couple of ways.

No trade.
No education.
No vanilla markets.
Also, a pretty crappy map to start out. ;) Some promising areas to expand into however.

No big goals for pop or fast growth. Just to make the most efficient town I can make with these limitations. If the town gets big along the way, well, I can't help that.  ;)

Map

Mods - just a few, notably @Bobbi Special Doctor House, Irrelevant Tweak Crop, and @slink 's SJGL Specialized Markets.

First Moves - Since I have squash and wheat, starting out farming (ok, I'll admit it, if I hadn't gotten a grain and a veg, I would have re-rolled). Going to build a gatherer, a forester, and one wooden house the first year. The rest of the time will be spent gathering resources.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 18, 2015, 07:21:53 PM
Year 1-5

The area I've started in is too cramped to do much early development in. My plan is to build a base here for subsistence and support, and to expand into the large open area to the northwest. Eventually there will be iron mines and quarries in the hills to the west and north.

I'm also building very sparsely at the start, to avoid the risk of a disastrous fire.

Using the SJGL markets to support a smith and a tailor, to reduce pressure on the barn, and to prepare to push out into the open. I'm building as many tools as I can while I still have an educated worker to serve as blacksmith. Same with coats to a limited extent, but there just isn't that much leather. As uneducated hunters take over, leather will increasingly become a challenge (medium start, so with no trade, I'm limited to deerhide for the duration).

Nearly 9000 food; I'll never understand why people say to avoid farming at the start. To me it's the most important first build (assuming you have seeds).
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 18, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
Heh-heh. ;D ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on March 19, 2015, 02:45:59 AM
I wish you luck and I'm excited to see how you go on with this BIG challenge.  :D

OK, you have your magic hunters, but you have also forgotten to tell one big challenge you made yourself, as you started this game medium. No sheep! As I played my no-trading-game. I choose a map with one vegetable, one grain, one fruit and sheep. It will not be easy later on, to get clothes only from leather with uneducated workers.

You are so right about the farming. If you have the seeds, why wait? I never understood that eather. I also start very early with some orchards. Not primary for the fruit/nuts but for wood. Let it be planted, need very little work, put it on rest for some years, harvest a year or two, cut it down when you need wood and start over. Very efficient to get wood at the start.

I also use that "trick" if I play uneducated; make as much tools as I can, as long as I have educated workers. I plan the houses, so that one original couple is closest to blacksmith and tailor (and sometimes also woodcutter but educated laborers, picking iron and stone isn't bad eather). But you have to watch out, because these just grown up 10-years-old living at home, seem to have a real affinity to the blacksmith-, tailor- and woodcutting-crafts.  :P

Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 26, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
Year 15 - Progress at Bald Hills

Pushing out with forest nodes. @slink's markets are the foundation for expansion

Established a quarry and a mine.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 29, 2015, 05:04:39 AM
Year 20

Eight forest nodes; the obvious play here is to simply continue to expand as I have been until the usable area is full, and fill in behind with blacksmiths, farms, mines, and quarries as needed.

Really enjoying this town, and the adjustments it calls for to my normal way of doing things.

Eventually there will be no more iron for tools. If I'm still interested in this town by then, I'll need to start brewing some ale and open a couple of TPs. That will be the last resort though, and many years down the road; plenty of spots for mines on this map.

@Nilla that big cushion of tools went from ~350 to under 100 in just a few years. These guys must be breaking their tools over each other's thick skulls.

Ar the same time I nearly ran out of iron. Iron/tools is where lack of education hits hardest. You need double the normal smiths, you get half as much iron as you are used to getting, and burn through it twice as fast!

Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on March 29, 2015, 05:56:06 AM
Yes, tools (and maybe also later clothes with no sheep) will be the problem here. You will need mines and quarries. And these workers need a lot of tools. I suggest you make steel tools, at least they last a bit longer. But that's too not without difficulties. I remember as I played my big isolation settlement (with education!!!!!) with a lot of mining, the problem was tools, too. I had two blacksmiths at each market. One made steel tools and the other iron tools, than I had some toolproduction even in times as the people carried the coal into their homes.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 29, 2015, 06:26:28 AM
@Nilla Steel tools is an excellent idea, one that I shall very happily steal!  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 29, 2015, 06:28:01 PM
Year 30 - yeah, this is hard

So preoccupied with marginal stocks of tools, coats, firewood, and food that I am unable to keep up with house construction. But that's probably just as well, the last thing I need is more mouths to feed and more hearths burning firewood (and coal!)

Making steel tools requires considerable micro, switching back to iron when the coal runs out.

Had to clear out a couple of forest nodes and replace with farms, food was turning ugly.



Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 30, 2015, 05:52:43 AM
Now my bottleneck is leather for coats. This is going to turn into a problem in the next year or two.

Had an interesting idea this morning. I'm going to try doubling up the hunter's cabins (building a second cabin next to the ones I already have). Theoretically this should double the amount of leather and venison I'm getting.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: kee on March 30, 2015, 07:39:14 AM
Didn't somebody try that a while ago and found that the production didn't increase, even though the no of hunters in the circles increased?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 30, 2015, 07:49:04 AM
Not that I know about. I suspect any testing that was done was looking at adding additional hunters to existing cabins, which improves hunting only very marginally, if at all.

I don't recall seeing any testing of multiple cabins with largely overlapping circles. Based on what I have been able to deduce regarding hunting mechanics, I believe this should produce significantly better results. In any case, even if someone had tested this, I would still perform my own test, as I am the Deer Whisperer, as @Nilla can attest  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on March 30, 2015, 08:29:43 AM
But Mr, Deervisperer; it improves the result quite a bit, if you put several hunters into the hunting cabins. If I have 3 hunters, I almost get the same result as you; an average of at least 4 deer each year, instead of normally 2. But of cause; with your super hunters it´s probably different.

Try to put several hunters together. It will probably give more than one, but less than if they all have their own area. I have never seen it with hunters, but I tried it with fishing docks once. Two fishing docks sharing the same space, gives more fish than one, but each fishing dock produced less, than if it was alone.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on March 30, 2015, 06:48:07 PM
Unfortunately I'm away from my computer, so I won't be able to test this until tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 02, 2015, 09:27:44 PM
Year 42

Wow, this is tough.

Struggling mightily with iron, and therefore with tools. I figured out that uneducated farmers break tools almost as fast as miners and stonecutters, so I have cut back to one farmer per field, and shut a few fields down. I've also stopped building houses, the last thing I need is more guys. Which is too bad cause I'd like to push out farther in a couple of spots, just to have more hunting cabins.

No, my hunting cabin idea didn't work. This means that the one deer per herd per season is an absolute limit, and is not one deer per herd per season per cabin as I had hoped. So clothing is also a big problem, just barely scraping by with coats. It's a shame the dead are not stripped of clothing and tools before they are put in the ground  ;)

Also had a fire, naturally it took out a blacksmith, and two big typhus outbreaks, and three orchard infestations, all in the past 12 years. I just have one hospital; I'd like to build another but I can't spare the iron. I've noticed that the size of the iron inventory has a big impact on tool production; with 50 iron in stock I barely break even, but with 100 iron in stock I can build up a small tool surplus. YMMV with the number of smiths you have and the size of your pop.

I'm considering building a single TP, for the sole purpose of buying some sheep and maybe some tools.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on April 03, 2015, 08:04:46 AM
No, please don't build no trading port; I know it's hard but I am very curious of this experiment.

I have thought about one thing; clothes isn't quite so important as tools. What happens if some people have no clothes? I have very little experience of this, but as far as I know, they are only a bit less productive in winter, as they have to get to some warm place more often with ragged clothes. If I had played your game, I would have studied this more careful.

QuoteYMMV with the number of smiths you have and the size of your pop.

Forgive a poor non-English-speaking-person, what is YMMV?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 03, 2015, 08:09:12 AM
@Nilla I shall resist the lure of the TP (for now anyway), just for you  ;)

I agree that clothes are not as important. It just bugs me to have guys running around in rags. I suppose it is just part of the whole "uneducated isolation" existence. ;) They do get cold faster, they can't work as long, and I suspect (although I have not figured out any way to prove this one way or the other) that ultimately it has some negative impact on individual health.

YMMV = "Your Mileage May Vary." That's an advertising disclaimer used by automobile manufacturers as they are telling you about the amazing the fuel economy of the vehicle they are trying to get you to buy. It's their way of saying, "hey, if you get different results, that's not our fault."
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 03, 2015, 08:21:12 PM
Year 50

The uneducated sine wave has stepped in and saved me from my tool and clothing shortages. For now. :-X

Expanding to the east in the north as well as the center. Soon I'll need to go back and demolish some houses someplace. Don't need more mouths to feed.

The leveling tool is most useful in placing mines, which are so quirky, but you can put them pretty much where you like with just a few clicks.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 04, 2015, 11:44:59 AM
In the past I have played almost exclusively with disasters off, but lately I've been leaving them on. Also, I mostly have used orchards only sparingly, but in this isolationist town I have planted a number of them.

Is it my imagination, or are orchard infestations the most common disaster? I've had one fire, one crop infestation, and at least a half-dozen orchard infestations.

I'd been growing my orchards in large groves (several adjacent 15x4s), as near the center of this screenshot, but an infestation in such a spot is a real pain, and requires all the orchards in that grove to be ripped out.

The solution is to intersperse the orchards among crop fields, as shown at upper left and upper center.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: RedKetchup on April 04, 2015, 11:49:26 AM
:) 500 citizens ... just missing the other 9/10th for a 5k :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 04, 2015, 12:08:22 PM
Har, not with this town!  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on April 04, 2015, 12:08:40 PM
I have mostly played with disasters on, so I have some experience and yes, I find orchard infestation most common maybe together with pasture infestation.

The best thing to do, when an orchard is sick; delete it! Than is the disease away immediately. You must cut down all trees anyhow and if you delete, the infestation doesn't spread to neighbor orchards.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 04, 2015, 12:39:29 PM
Quote from: Nilla on April 04, 2015, 12:08:40 PM
I have mostly played with disasters on, so I have some experience and yes, I find orchard infestation most common maybe together with pasture infestation.

The best thing to do, when an orchard is sick; delete it! Than is the disease away immediately. You must cut down all trees anyhow and if you delete, the infestation doesn't spread to neighbor orchards.
I do, as fast as I can, but it seems always to have infected two or three of the 15x4s in that group, so I take all 4 of them out just to be sure.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 05, 2015, 12:36:01 PM
Now there's something you don't see every day....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: RedKetchup on April 05, 2015, 04:49:40 PM
they are very old to have a boy of 19 years :S. it is certainly thier grandchild lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: chillzz on April 05, 2015, 05:39:47 PM
most likely the 64/65 y.o. 'mom' visited an italian fertility doctor ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 05, 2015, 06:52:18 PM
Year 74

Back around year 56 things were threatening to spiral out of control; pop was climbing and this threatened to wreck the tool situation, so I took drastic action. Shut down about 20 houses for ~4-5 years. This resulted in a crash in first, children and then, pop. I thought I might have gone too far, as I opened the houses back up, all the females that moved in were over 40. Got down to 12 children at one point. But with a few years of micromanaging evictions, eventually the curves turned back around. Had to build a number of houses to get breeders paired up, and that's why I have so many closed houses now. At least I'm not using much stone! Just as needed to build the occasional iron mine. Got more mines on this map, I think, than I have had in all my previous towns combined!

Lots of screenies to show the important town hall panels.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Trizeropz on April 06, 2015, 02:24:36 AM
I dont understand why you have so many tree plantages but dont have taverns. Wouldnt be 2-3 plantages enough for food variety at the moment? Or do you just like how it looks?:D
If i look at another towns i feel jealous. The layout looks so much better than me^^
have fun:)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 06, 2015, 03:52:15 AM
@Trizeropz I'm getting about 5500-6000 fruit per year, not really so much. Actually it's just about the same as how much wheat and squash I'm bringing in. I believe in having plenty of food stored. 

Yes, I do like the way the orchards look, although I wish they would last longer before they started looking ragged. I know there's a mod that fixes this, but it is way OP.

We each can see the many flaws in our own towns so clearly  ;)

Thanks!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 06, 2015, 08:12:56 PM
@Trizeropz also, with no trading, there is no point to having taverns. Making ale for your guys to drink is a waste of fruit.

Year 84

Here we go again, up the sine wave roller-coaster. I just have not found the right pace of home-building to eliminate this in an uneducated town. In the early years of Bald Hills I still was building houses as if I had schools.

Uneducated burn through iron at a ferocious rate. And without sheep, clothing is very problematic, despite having 29 hunting cabins; that's one for every 20 pop.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Trizeropz on April 06, 2015, 11:10:32 PM
so in my town i only export firewood and not ale too like other guys. i just have 17 taverns for 4000 people to hold my 4,5 stars of happiness. did someone checked how much it really waste for alcohol? i compared churches with taverns. i think the local happiness they give is almost same. churches just have bigger radius. but the space they need is much different. thats why i demolished all my churches and just let my taverns there. if i destroy my taverns now too, i would have like 3 or 3,5 stars of happiness^^
so you think the food needed for aclohol isnt worth the happiness taverns give you?

have fun:)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 07, 2015, 04:23:07 AM
I have 4.5 stars here with no taverns at all. I'm not suggesting to tear down anything. As an experiment though, you could try not producing ale and see what happens. Does the ale cause happiness, or is it the tavern?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Trizeropz on April 07, 2015, 04:28:17 AM
i dont know if its the tavern or the ale and im wondering why you have 4,5 without them. im doing something wrong^^
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 07, 2015, 04:40:31 AM
I use cemeteries and wells for happiness  ;) That's why I have all those expensive little cemeteries spread around everywhere, more happiness circles than with a few larger ones.

Even better than not producing ale, take all of it and use it for trading. Just for a year or two to see what happens.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Trizeropz on April 07, 2015, 06:40:57 AM
they drink it to fast. i have now 17 taverns for 4k people. only have 2600 left. two years earlier i had 5700. and i dont want to build new ones^^
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on April 07, 2015, 06:51:10 AM
As I started to play Banished I made some experiments about the happines;

My conclusions:
Ale, churches, wells and other happines buildings, all make just a little increase of happines, hardly to notice. A waste to build, if you just use them for happines.

The only things that really have a larger impact are graveyards.

As far as I have noticed;  the only real bad "unhappiness-maker" is the death of a family member. If someone in your family dies, the stars go down to ½* of all the family members, unless there is a graveyard (not full) close. Than it might stay ***** or go down to ***. The unhappiness last their whole life. So if you have no free graveyard and a parent dies, the children will stay unhappy until they die. I haven't found anything to increase the stars in such a case.

In a normal game, where you build enough houses, there are seldom any children living at home, as the parents die of old age. It is different in a game when you build very little houses. Than there are many grown up children, still living with their parents when they die. The happines goes down. You can see this very good in my last game, where I couldn't build any new houses for many years.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 07, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
@Trizeropz you should read this http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=354.0
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 07, 2015, 06:56:39 AM
I think the most important effect of wells, chapels, etc is to cancel out the "happiness detraction" effect caused by mines and quarries, particularly in areas where they are concentrated and their circles of effect overlap and compound themselves.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Trizeropz on April 07, 2015, 07:06:47 AM
thanks @irrelevant
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 07, 2015, 11:41:51 AM
Tonight should be interesting. Nearing the top of the pop curve, and children already have crashed back down. Not going to do anything to try to manage what happens this time; no evictions or building new houses to try to get new breeders hooked up before they get too old. If I do that I'll just get another upswing that will go even higher than the last one did, and this town can't take that.

I'll take whatever happens. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 08, 2015, 07:42:22 PM
Year 100

Made it past the pop nadir; here we go again....

The subtitle of this town is "The Uneducated Struggle for Iron." It's tough. I could never have made it this far without the leveling tool making it possible to place mines.

Half my effort goes to creating new mines. The other half is juggling the number of miners, foresters, gatherers, farmers, and laborers so I'm not running into any shortages. It does no good for your guys to produce resources if you haven't enough laborers to store them....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on April 09, 2015, 01:42:28 AM
These "mine ruins" are really impressive!  ;D

You should have used the CC mod. ;) There you can upgrade the mines twice! Not for free, they use a lot of candles and lamp oil for that.

Do you know what I would have tried, if I had played your town?

I would have increased the number of fields a lot. Than close all the mines and toolmakers. All! Send the miners and blacksmiths to the farms. And see if the settlement could survive without tools.

In some of may games with uneducated, I had a lack of tools (who can believe that? ;) ) For quite a long time. I found the production not so much worse with these tool-less people. I noticed that they are running around looking for tools a lot, but if there are no tools at all, maybe they wouldn't do that.

Maybe worth a try?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 09, 2015, 05:55:37 AM
@Nilla this is so funny! This morning as I was driving to work, I had decided to do exactly this. There is nothing further to learn continuing this town as it has been going the past three cycles. But it will be very interesting to see how these uneducated folk make out with nothing but foresters, farmers, and choppers.

Oh, and hunters. But if they can eke out their existence without tools, after a few years I may see how they do without clothing as well. I'll keep the fishers instead, for meat.

Back to nature!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: Nilla on April 09, 2015, 06:14:41 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 10, 2015, 09:14:09 AM
Year 102

The stage is set and there's no turning back. I've demolished all mines, blacksmiths, and smithy markets. I've saved enough iron to build one TP and three taverns  ;)

Fully manned 19 foresters, 11 gatherers, 12 choppers, 29 hunters. Not expanding farms for now, I think there are enough. I may double up farmers however.

Tools clicking down.....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation
Post by: irrelevant on April 10, 2015, 09:45:08 AM
Year 103

Gone.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: irrelevant on April 10, 2015, 10:59:29 AM
Year 108

We don't need no stinking tools. ;)

The only adjustments I've made so far have been to build a couple more choppers, three more tailors (tailors' output seems to be halved without tools), and to double up the number of farmers, including at orchards.

Hunters seem to be unaffected by being toolless. I developed a large surplus of leather because the tailors weren't producing.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: Nilla on April 10, 2015, 12:01:07 PM
WOW!  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: irrelevant on April 11, 2015, 06:55:33 AM
Built a single tavern, and I have been watching as random villagers go to the tavern, drink a single unit of ale, and then go on about their business. I'm starting to suspect that maybe ale functions for happiness in much the same way that herbs do for health.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: rkelly17 on April 12, 2015, 04:38:27 PM
Quote from: irrelevant on April 11, 2015, 06:55:33 AM
Built a single tavern, and I have been watching as random villagers go to the tavern, drink a single unit of ale, and then go on about their business. I'm starting to suspect that maybe ale functions for happiness in much the same way that herbs do for health.

Maybe having no tools leaves more time for drinking?  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: irrelevant on April 12, 2015, 07:13:34 PM
Hm, a lesson to carry over into real life, I'm thinking  :D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Bald Hills: uneducated isolation, and now, toolless
Post by: kee on April 13, 2015, 02:17:04 AM
This got me thinking a bit the other way: How small a village can be made sustainable with no outside interference? As you' ve demonstrated the banishims can do without school, tools and trade. With enough firewood they can go unclothed as well so the challenge is to get enough food and a stable population that neither grows nor sinks into geriatrification. How few would it take?