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Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

Started by Nilla, February 05, 2018, 12:01:29 PM

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RedKetchup

Quote from: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
the only issue will be if the cart fills with a different item.

everything works with flags, everything in that flag are equal and cant be seperated.
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brads3

the tricky paty is how do they prioritize what goes in them or from where they get items? i gave seen vendors walk past stocked barns to get items.KID's FO barn would fill to a certain level and then the vendor would go haul the goods back.some markets will store food 1st then other items. others do the opposite.some vendors go idle more than others. others actually work with laborers more.not all vendors act the same.
    i can't see inside the coding to tell if they prioritize due to the order they are listed or by alphabetical,etc.take the idea of a grain wagon. if we knew the "trick" we could code it to priority grain. as it reaches a % limit of flour,it would move that out to make room for grain.

Turis

I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D

Gatherer

Quote from: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
like KID's log depot in the game i have now does store coal and logs.
Is coal also stored on wood stockpiles? Are you using Stop Burning Coal Mod?


Quote from: Turis on March 14, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D
Ah...But from which country's territorial waters was it fished from? :D
There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

RedKetchup

Quote from: Turis on March 14, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
I have a real serious question. If I go fishing and catch a fish, would it come with a flag or do I have to put it myself? ;D

nan they come with a stample " Made in Japan' or 'Made in USA" ^^
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brads3

@Gatherer ,my coal is being stored with logs in KID's log depot.yes i have the no burning coal mod. i took the compatabilty mods out.it could be due to mod order though. it isn't a problem yet,since i don't have much coal.

Nilla

@brads3 , the small stores from Red partly work like the charts; not quite as specialized. But as they are now, they work fine in most cases. This "flagging" do cause some trouble. It is a limit but it also makes it challenging. It's a challenge for the modders to create good specialized stores, that work in most cases and it's a challenge for use players, to use them in the best way.

I do agree with you, that distribute goods to where they are needed, is one of the real tricky parts in Banished. These specialized stores/charts/markets/piles with or without vendor, are often useful but might be tricky and cause more trouble than help. Take the markets for only one category of food as an example. It might be convenient to have a store for only protein close to dryers/salters/butchers/diaries but people who live in the neighborhood, will also get their food at that store, with a consequence of bad health, because they get only protein. The same, if you use some market puzzle with specialized market stands. They are not good, if you want a healthy population. So in many cases good location is more important than good specialized stores.

I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?

First picture

Soon I will have to upgrade my coal mine. Since you've changed the production, I also wanted to see, if candles might be good to produce for export. The profit of each candle is now the reasonable 4, but the annual production is low, so there will not be any candle production for export. The annual production is around 100, that makes a profit of 400. I wouldn't mind, if the production would be doubled. It wouldn't make the profit unreasonable and it would fit well with wax from one apiary with 2 workers. If you really want to produce a lot of candles, you'll now need 2 candlemaker for each apiary.

How do I think about products worth to export?

First there might be goods I want to get rid of. Of cause these are sold first. In this game there are no such products, maybe I should sell some wool, but I try to produce wool coats instead. We can take the coats as an example of something, that I find profitable enough to sell, not overpowered but OK. The tailors produce 80 coats each year. The profit is 10 each, that makes 800.

In this game my calculation goes like this: Each person eat 200 and need other supply (firewood, clothes, tools) worth about 50. Each adult has to support one child. That means, an average worker has to produce a value of 500. Now there are also some vendors and traders who not produce anything. So a "make even" value in this game is 600, everything below is a loss. Of cause in a vanilla game this is lower, but not much less than 400.

One small thing about the candlemaker, @RedKetchup; the menu still says 30 beeswax like it used to be. It should be changed to 16.

Second picture

I just want to confess a cheat. Normally I like to rebuild a settlement when something is destroyed but not this time. I went back to the autosave.  :-[




Gatherer

Quote from: brads3 on March 14, 2018, 01:41:11 PM
@Gatherer ,my coal is being stored with logs in KID's log depot.yes i have the no burning coal mod. i took the compatabilty mods out.it could be due to mod order though. it isn't a problem yet,since i don't have much coal.
No Burning Coal Mod interferes with log stockpiles. It makes coal and logs getting stored together. I've used this mod on some of my older maps but not anymore. Bannies prefer firewood so a few coals being siphoned away from blacksmith chain is not a catastrophe.

Quote from: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 03:54:37 AM
I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?
Used to like it as inedible but in my current town I'm drowning in it. And I'm only using a single Kid's small grain grinder. I've yet to enable work at the canal mill.
There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

RedKetchup

Quote from: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 03:54:37 AM
I've seen no comments to my suggestions to solve the "flour issue". How do you people think about flour?

One small thing about the candlemaker, @RedKetchup; the menu still says 30 beeswax like it used to be. It should be changed to 16.

yeah need more comments on flour case.

about candlemaker... you are right and i fixed it :) thanks you
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Nilla

Only played very little yesterday, so there's nothing new to show. Instead there will be some "real life" pictures, made today. If this was Banished land, the harvest this year would be miserable. We still have very deep frost all day long, even if the march sun has some power.

The first picture is made from our little jetty. The traces on the ice are from our children, who amused themselves on the ice last weekend, as it was a bit warmer.

The second is from the "village beach" and harbour. After the first ice there was a storm, that broke the ice. After that again deep Siberian frost, that made the ice floe freeze. In life it looks very beautiful. Couldn't really catch it on the picture.

The road to the mailbox. @Tom Sawyer you are absolutely right in your design of the Nordic barn, if you compare it to my neighbor's.

Gatherer

There's never enough deco stuff!!!
Fiat panis.

Nilla

Yes, I live in a nice area.

This Banished village is also a nice area. A while ago I thought, that I wanted to play it 100 years but I think it will be longer. It's still a very nice game and space enough to keep on developing. So I will go on, at least until @RedKetchup comes with a new version of this mod or the cooperation between @Tom Sawyer and @Discrepancy shows some result.

Today I want to talk about processing proteins.

First I want to ask the question: why do we process proteins?
1. To increase the amount of food.
2. To trade.
3. Diversity.

My answer is; all of these reasons. Most of the sites also work well considering all these aspects.

The list contains these numbers for each product. I hope there are not all too much miscalculation.
Annual production for one worker
Annual increase of food for one worker (output-input). This is the important value, if you want to produce food to use yourself.
Annual profit for one worker (trade value out-tradevalue in) This is the important value, if you want to export the food.

Milk
Red diary (I haven't tried the smaller)

Cheese
Production: 450
Food: 150
Profit: 2400 (new with the value of 3 gives 1000)

Cream (I haven't ran the following products a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the cheese productivity)
Production:550
Food: 200
Profit: 1800 (with the value of 4, I don't know if this is changed but 3 would give 1250 and 2 gives 700)

Butter
Production: 550
Food: 130
Profit: 2900 (with the value of 6, changed to 3 would give 1100)

Yogurt
Production: 600
Food: 200
Profit: 1400 (with the value 3, new value 2 gives 800)

Fish

Dryer
Production: 700
Food: 350
Profit: 350

Salter (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some salt)
Profit: 260 (with the value of 2 it would be 950)

Smoker (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some firewood)
Profit: 230 (with the value of 2 it would be 900)

Meat

Dryer
Production: 700
Food: 350
Profit: 350

Salter (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some salt)
Profit: 950

Smoker (I haven't ran it a whole year, the numbers are calculated from the dried fish productivity, if the "production speed" is different the numbers are wrong)
Production:700
Food: 350 (but you need some firewood)
Profit: 900

As you can see, with the planned changes of the tradeprices of the milk products, these values are good balanced. Maybe I could wish some milkproduct, that would give a little higher increased food value for "domestic use" and some fish product, that would be good to export (a change of salted/smoked fish to 2). But we can live with these values.

Pictures

I've developed this stream to a "half canal". I find it looks OK. That's the way people used to do it anyway, at least here in Sweden: If there was a stream or or a lake, where ships could go, it was used. In between a canal was built.

RedKetchup

i like your post alot

so all the numbers seems fine but 1 item : butter i will change it to 3 and all the numbers will be great :)
thanks you alot for all the insights :)

yeah this weekend will have a new build with the new numbers and all the other things i did :)
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brads3

glad to hear NILLA's take and her agreeing with these #'s. having the food production increase food amounts is smart. though in reality there is some loss in production,from a game point of view increasing it benefits the bannies.knowing NILLA looks at the trade values,it is nice to hear she is happy with the balance. this is outstanding work by both of you. give RED a pat on the back for developing the food processors this way.

Nilla

Yes @brads3, unless you're thinking about export only, the way to give sense to production chains is to increase the amount. I don't think it's unrealistic. Say you take 1 fish and make 2 fillets, 2 bags of grain to make 3 pouch of flour to give 5 bread. Nothing weird.

And yes @RedKetchup you always had a good sense for balancing. And balancing is difficult, I realize that. First it's hard to know, what is reasonable? Should you measure the values with the often overpowered vanilla buildings? I know you did that at the very beginning. But only buildings with this, makes the game too easy. But on the other hand, when everything has a much lower profit than vanilla, or has such a low profit, that they don't make any sense, doesn't work good either. Everything doesn't need to be good for export, but at least give you some value.

I will go on with the same calculation for some other products.

First I forgot the butcher yesterday, but it seem to have the same values as the dryer.

Flour
Production 1000
Food (inedible) 600
Profit 1400 (with a value of 1 ; 400)

Bread
Production 400 (estimated)
Food - 100
Profit 150

Cake
Production 550
Food 400
Profit 1600

Pie
Production 500
Food 50
Profit 2300

Perfume
Production 250
Profit 1800

I would make some changes, when it comes to flour/bread production. Here are some suggestions:

Flour; I find the trade value too high. Flour is no "natural" trade product. A change to 1 would make the production reasonable.

Bread; I would like, that bread would be a good product for domestic use, but no big trade product. Now 16 flour makes 12 bread, I think to change it (12->16) would probably not be enough, maybe 12 flour give 20 or 24 bread. The trade value of bread ought to be set down, I suggest to 1 with this higher production.

Cake; I would like cake to be a decent product; domestic and export. It's quite OK as it is, but the profit a bit too high. A trade value of 3 would be enough.

Pie; This was all time, from your very first model a long time ago, the great trade product. I don't know, if pie in a real world would be something a village like this could trade, but I like it to be anyway! I find it also OK, if they bring a good profit; not so easy to produce, you need 3 ingredients. If the increase in food is small, like it is now, you also need a good logistic to transport it fast to the port or the people would eat them and the profit will soon be gone. But maybe the profit is a bit high, even concerning these circumstances, a value of 5 (or maybe even 4 especially if the flour is set to1) could be enough.

Perfume
It's also a very high profit. But unless you can import a lot of flowers, there's a limit on how much flowers a map can give and how many perfume maker you can have on one map. I haven't tried to order flowers, I don't even know, if the merchants will bring enough. A solution could be to increase the value of flowers and keep the rest.

Picture

Here I show two sites, with opposite production. The apiary is very profitable and the fishpond not. (note the apiary has 2 and pond only 1 worker)