Nilla-testing RK Editor Choice beta 08 -09-10-11

[brads3]

i will clarify i don't want an A&E to be easy to play. if i load any A&E start,some mods don't work. the pine mod and ND are affected and the items won't appear at all.i wish there was a way to "trick" the program into thinking it loaded a medimu start but with ony w bannies.like 4-2,you still get the 2 bannies and could have less resources but the game would allow the other mods to fully work.
     i mentioned the North because she normally plays that. many of her ideas reflect TOM's great work there.or vise versa too.and she is too crazy.she lives near the north pole but doesn't hand out presents. but she wears a red suit with horns....... wait what

[RedKetchup]

RK Ed has a A&E

[brads3]

after this game,i'll have to clear my registry and try it. normally the pine and nd are set to work on medium start. switching to an A&E turns them off.not sure why. i even tried an addon mod that should have just changed the bannie count and start resources.i need Nilla to send me a tornado right at the start to knock out half the population and most of the resources.LOL

[Denis de la Rive]

I'm still confused, why do you want these to override RK Ed, there are many great aspects of this mod, maybe I'm just getting old. Otherwise, you have to choose which mods you use, its impossible to have everything, even with MM.

[brads3]

have you seen my village blogs? i never play right.

[galensgranny]

I'm still confused, why do you want these to override RK Ed, there are many great aspects of this mod, maybe I'm just getting old. Otherwise, you have to choose which mods you use, its impossible to have everything, even with MM.

You were asking Brad, but I also have been playing with over riding parts of RK Choice since I don't want to clear that grass/thatch that is all over the place right now, and I don't want to get involved with the flower situation yet.  I do not understand the fodder farming system yet.  But, I LOVE his new buildings that are not available separately. 

Right now, I am mostly playing for style and layout, while keeping the Bannies fed and warm.  But the looks matters more to me right now.  I am just now starting to have to make iron, having gotten used to making bricks and roof tiles for a while now, so I want to keep playing mostly like I was used to, but with adding the having to make iron and get some other building supplies for Red's new buildings.  After I get used to all that, I will try with RK Choice as the main mod.  Then I will tackle how the fodder farming and flower perfume whatever it is chain works.  Basically, for me, all at once it was too big a change for me.  I don't want to have learn too much new at once since when I have my play time, I want to basically have some mindless escapism fun with different city designs.

[Denis de la Rive]

Nothing wrong with playing like that, but it should not be the source of comments on how aspects you override work, or more clearly how you want them to fit your personal mod choices. If you only want to discuss graphics, that is also OK, but I feel he is discussing things like starting conditions he want to be compatible with other mods.

I can't understand why he wants Red to take a step back simply so he can use his favorite mods. When I comment on a mod, I never try to make it like what someone else has already done, I look at the mod as it is, or could be.

I firmly believe Red can create a very wonderful mod that can be used by many people, but it should not be a copy of what has already been published.

Again, if you choose certain mods you must live with the consequences, its not up to mod makers to fix everything for you.

Note Nilla stated she likes playing with only one mod, so why should she be forced to use others to make RK Ed work?

Sorry Nilla if this conversation is getting too far from your work. 

[galensgranny]

Thanks, @Nilla , for your detailed start showing how you did things, even with just starting with only two Bannies!  So with more Bannies to start, it would not take as many years to get materials for RK's Choice trade port, and not as long for them to build a tailor to getsome new clothes as it took you with just two to start.  I do feel badly for the Bannies wearing rags.

The first thing I built after the house, was that big woodchopper. A bit stupid, if a couple stranded out in the woods with more or less nothing, will have to build this rather impressive workplace as one of the first things, when the forest is full of wood.

Yes, that it why I use Kid's tiny chopper from his Tiny Separate mod when I first start a game.  No way would a few people who have an ax not chop a bit of wood for a fireplace in at least one house first so they don't freeze to death, and then get to cutting enough wood for more buildings.

about firewood.....
you know at beginning, fodder-thatch was some kind of "firewood" and it was taking care of what you are asking ^^
but i ve got to change it. not sure i like the change though because i liked that idea. of course, although as much as i loved that idea, i was also getting some feelings about it was making the game so easy too...

but with your suggestion, i can maybe add some brambles spawns which would give some "firewood" and since the spawns would be more rare like wild food, maybe it can be a good thing. i like the idea to send a couple of bannies to gather firewood for half of a season sometimes to prepare for the winter

That is a good idea, for Bannies to be able to gather something for the first fireplaces before building a entire building before being able to get a few logs to burn to not freeze to death while building that wood cutter building.     But, you don't want to gather brambles!  Brambles are a dense prickly shrub, like wild roses, or blackberry bushes, both of which have sharp thorns and would not be used to burn for a fireplace.  Instead, gathering fallen branches would be what one would do for building a fire.  Maybe just call it "branches".

[Nilla]

Much happenend in this thread last night, seems like most of you live "over see", active when we here in Europe are sleeping tight. I don't mind, all kind of discussion here, at least as long as it is done in a polite/friendly/respectful way. (OK, some exceptions may be allowed; @brads3 might be rude and @Turis cheeky. Some natural forces can't be changed. )

about firewood

Yes, @brads3 is right; the idea of collecting firewood in the woods comes from the North and since I've played the North a lot, of cause I thought of it, and missed it, as I started this A&E game and needed firewood. Normally in a Nordic game, I don't use this opportunity much. It's useful at the beginning or when you realize, that it's late autumn and your stocks of firewood are almost empty, it's easier to send some people out in the woods, than build another chopper. The gatherers also collect firewood in the North, it's good that way, because there's as good as no wild food in the forest in Winter. In a "vanilla gameplay" it's different; wild food also spawn in winter, and I guess introducing these collectable branches, may interfere in another way here.

I'm not sure, that the game was easier, as thatch was a fuel. I rather found it more difficult. Of cause not the start. There you are right @RedKetchup, it's easier with burnable thatch. I mean later in game, if you want to use the fodder-fertilizer chain. I think it's difficult enough to get thatch for the horses now, when thatch is labled as building material and carried around to every possible location, where such material can be stored. Labled as fuel as well, was worse. You needed to have huge overproduction of firewood, a very good logistic for it, otherwise thatch was burned and not enough food for your horses left. I find, it would have been a pity, if this has limited the use of this unique and very nice chain of production. I do recommend to try this chain @galensgranny!. At the beginning, as the settlement is small and you also get a lot of fodder by clearing ground, these difficulties I write about, aren't big.

Something called live is calling. I'll write more this afternoon.

[Nilla]

Back home. I will continue my comments of your comments.

about A&E start

It's not very difficult to start Adam and Eve, @RedKetchup, at least not when you're used to micromanage things. For people who don't really know, what micromanagement is good for and how to use it, I suggest to try an A&E start. Here it's absolutely necessary, although I made it a little more difficult than it had to be. I think it's wiser to let the fist children stay uneducated, but I need my fun, too.

It is a bit weird, when you play A&E with else vanilla settings or this RKEd only, that you have to build those large buildings, to produce a few basic things. I mentioned the "professional" wood cutter to supply one house with firewood and the advanced tailor for a few coats. (A blacksmith contain some technology, a special processing, that makes some kind of separate building necessary, so that building is more OK to make early). But you have seen; it works. But normally I would recommend to use some additional mods, like @kid1293´s "Forest Outpost", "Tiny" and some of his workplaces, to get a more comfortable start.

About RK Ed

You misunderstood me, @Denis de la Rive, when you think, that I always like to play with just one mod. It's only, if I want to test a major mod like this, I get a much better feeling for the advantage/disadvantage/possibilities/shortcoming/development potential.......if I play it pure. There are others who are keen on testing, how it work with other mods, in different ways; from a normal set of mods to the most insane mixture (Yes, @brads3; I'm talking about you )

I can assure everyone, including you Denis, this mod is a great stand alone mod. I will not say, it makes the game harder. It makes it more complex, (I hope, that word has the same meaning in English as it has in Swedish and German), more interesting, gives you more possibilities, without really changing the gameplay. Though I can understand, that some things may be a bit overwhelming, the first time you see it, and I find your approach @galensgranny smart; take one new thing after the other, if it feels too much to try everything at once.

But I also find, that @RedKetchup has made some wise compromises, just to make it more playable, also for not so experienced player. (Maybe not absolute beginners, who play their first game, but I find, that no modder should think of them in the first place. If they become problems using a lot of/large mods, so be it. They should learn the basics first.) I first found; hm... the foundry, too simple; only ore, no fuel? But after thinking a bit about it, I find this good; a compromise between the too simple original Banished with iron on the ground and the more complex smelter from other mods, where you need a processed fuel as well. I would have managed charcoal, furnacefuel, coke or whatever there is, but I can also live with this compromise.

Production formulas

I'm a bit "geeky" so of cause, I'm intrested to see your formulas, @Denis de la Rive. Especially, if they contain more than only the "basics": amount and period of production.

And finally to my present game

First mission accomplished; I now have a beautiful lighthouse and a small clinic; not used so far because no one was ill. There are also some more development.  I'll show you some pictures.

First picture

The impressive lighthouse soon done. As expected, hardest (=took the most time) was to collect all stone that was needed.

Second picture

Some merchants have an optimism far beyond stupidity. Do you think this one will make some business here?

I know, I said I want no trade with firewood, but this is just now at the beginning. I will take it away as soon as I have something else to sell the resource merchant, that makes sense. It will be perfume.

Third picture

There's been a small setback. This is somehow a cursed area. If you look at the food graph, you can see a severe drop last year; it was a fire, that destroyed the hunter, herbalist and the worse thing; the forset barn, the main barn for storing food in this village. That was not enough, as soon as everything was rebuilt the young forester Cecilin was hit by a tree and left her student husband alone with a newborn! 

Fourth picture

Finally food store back where it should be, and time to build the clinic.

You wished the charts to be tested @RedKetchup and you know, your wish is my command. But I'll only try those, that I feel make sense.  Here you can see two, that work: one for logs by the woodcutter and one for Miscellaneous by the perfume maker. The chart for logs doesn't contain much, just a little over 100 so it has to be refilled often. The other chart could hold a lot of flowers for the perfume maker and he can also put his perfume there, almost a little too nice and easy. I've also tried the chart for materials, I built 2 of them; one close to the glass- and brickmaker for clay and sand and one close to the stable for fertilizer, but I don't get any of them to work better than stockpiles. There's always too much dung by the glass and brickmaker and sand and clay by the greenhouse. I will keep them and see, if I come up with a way to use them.

Fifth picture

I've played a few more years after my first goals were done. Here's the largest part of the settlement. A canal is under construction, I've rebuilt the initial woodhouses, most to my favourite NMT houses, but I also had to build a few of these nice colorful houses. It's been I while since I build my first. Thank you @RedKetchup for the fun you gave us all during these years!

[brads3]

Nilla,i think part of the issue with storage may be that we players see amounts and the game and coding reads by weight. can you tell how many logs a vendor with a wheelbarrow will haul?  what amounts are you getting with the mixed material cart? that fertilizer has messed with you a lot.not sure how to conquer that unless you had a barn or manure pit that just stored the fertilizer.

[Denis de la Rive]

First I live five time zones from you and I'm active late, so there is a delay. Its not quite the north but we have sub-arctic winters. I will try to not assume so much from a few comments. 

I think the collected firewood could be called "brush wood", (which is defined in english as: wood collected from the forest floor to make a fire), if you use the same fuel flag then it will be work exactly as like firewood. As a separate resource it can be spawned as part of the starting conditions, the rest is simple. What is important is that it is not made a replacement for firewood, but something you get to help when you need it. You have to limit the numbers since it will be present until the end of the game, just like other spawned resources, you get some with each field/orchard or building you make. You can then play with the resource file's numbers to make it even more limited as a trade item. I would look at weight as a possible limiting factor.

I think A&E is a perfect example of how you can make the game interesting without making the actual mod content too difficult. I have written often that players should create their own challenges, like Nilla's choice to educate very early. I use things like culture, in my latest town, all fields are 15 x15, orchards 5 x 20, it gives a certain look. I once had a cult of the apple tree, creating many structures around the decorative apple tree, including a death ritual complex, (a ceremonial plaza between the church and the grave yard). You can also decide to ignore game functions, or resources, (for example no trading for iron), to make it "harder", again it the player's choice. There are so many things a player can imagine that a designer won't even think of.

I also would like this RK Ed to be as independent as possible, it would be wrong to think otherwise, and it would be a waste of so much effort. What I am trying to do is make it as accessible as possible to most players. If it evolves in a different direction, then all I ask is that it should be indicated up front. I indicated to Red some important questions that he needs to answer as a designer in the other discussion.

I'm happy to share my formulas with you, and yes they take into account many more factors, including investment, input value, and time. What I first did was to create basic values, for building cost, and work by averaging those from vanilla buildings. I think that this is as close as we can get to the mind of Luke. I use those numbers to compare what a new building or production chain adds. For example if time of production is longer than the basic value then the product of production should have more value, the same for investment, (building cost). When combined with the input value of resources you can find a fair trade value for the end result. Again there are always design and historical considerations that will help decide the final result.

What you get is a tool that can help you decide the balance of your mod. By having a formula you can play with the numbers in a scientific way that helps you avoid many of the pitfalls of an educated guess. If I change how many input resources are used, what should the output number be. Do I want to make it so educated workers make you more of a profit? If I want this to be good for trading, how long should it take to make? Or more simply how much should a resource be worth? Its a lot about added value.

I have to rewrite the presentation, but if you still want I can post it here later. I'm just afraid it might take over your blog, something I don't want to do.

I continue to like your story.

[Turis]

@Nilla Cheeky? hmm... I have to check what that word means in the dictionary.

[brads3]

TURIS,don't pick on NILLA. she will curse you. she already got me.

[Turis]

But, I agree with her. I'm a cheeky fellow.