World of Banished

Conversations => Suggestions and Mod Ideas => Topic started by: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 01:14:52 AM

Title: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 01:14:52 AM
Hello everyone! Some of you may know me and have followed the development of my Natural Diversity mod over at BL. For those of you who do not frequent those forums, or for those who frequent them less frequently, I will also present my works here from now on. My mod is currently in beta, so I will start with a short introduction to its contents.

Natural Diversity Mod: Beta
The Natural Diversity v1.0 Beta can be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yzyf10vmffrnd4l/NatDiv.pkm?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yzyf10vmffrnd4l/NatDiv.pkm?dl=0)

Natural Diversity is my attempt to make the world of banished resemble real nature more closely. I try to achieve this by increasing the realism of existing elements of the game, and by introducing new elements that I feel are lacking. This first version of the mod is only the start, and deals only with some aspects of the game's natural environment. My plan is to continue development, and cover the other parts in future updates.

As this is a beta, things are not perfect. There will be bugs. There will be conflicts with other mods. There will be hard drive failures. I'm joking about one of these.

Furthermore, as this is a beta, any feedback and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anything you have to say about it is welcome, though I'm specifically looking for feedback on spawn rates of the natural resources, aesthetic appeal of the new models and gameplay potential of the mod as a whole.

Usage details
- This mod will require a new game in order to work.
- Load this mod above any other mods that alter start conditions, such as CC (more info on load orders will follow after Beta)
- Currently this mod is likely not to be compatible with any alternative starting conditions introduced by other mods. Doing so might lead to severe gameplay restrictions, such as the inability to construct many of the game's core buildings.

Content

Meadows
The most impactful addition of this mod is the addition of a new biome in addition to the forest that is already present: the meadow. Meadows will spawn naturally in the world from the start of the game. They mainly consist of 'grass', which gives 'thatch' as a material when harvested by the citizens. A 'Collect Grass' option is added to the menu for this. Thatch is needed to construct buildings with thatched roofs, such as the 'Storage Barn' or 'Wooden House'.

Furthermore, the meadows will spawn herbs, roots and onions. The latter two no longer spawn in the forest, as this is not their natural habitat.
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Grass.png.6335d03e4b35f41620dae1ccb5704351.png)

Thatcher's Shed and Thatcher profession
To be able to let citizens harvest and replant grasses automatically, the 'Thatcher's Shed' is added to the game. It employs a maximum of two 'Thatchers', and has a work radius of 20.
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Thatcher.png.328007232e30e96ff9d4c1f65cba1951.png)

Seasonality for natural resources
In unmodded Banished, all natural resources are treated as if they would not be affected by low temperatures, while in reality some of them would. With this mod, all Mushrooms, half the Herbs and half the Roots will die as soon as the temperature drops below 0 C (32F).

Though the other resources will not die, their appearance will change according to the season. In Spring, herbs and onions will grow flowers. In Autumn, their flowers will wilt again.

Many new models for herbs, onions, roots and mushrooms
One of my biggest points of critique for the base game is the lack of attention that was given to the models for the natural resources. Not only are some of them completely unrealistic (onions do not grow lying in bundles on the forest floor!), it is also rather boring to see the same model many times over. Therefore this mod introduces 24 new models for herbs, 6 new onions, 18 root variants and 12 mushrooms. These will replace the old models.

The mushrooms will grow naturally in the forest, and die if the temperature drops below 0 C (32F).
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Mushroom.png.63e19effd734218c96b8377af1109be2.png)

These herbs will grow naturally in the forest or in the meadows. The annual herbs die in cold temperatures, the others only lose their flowers (or decolour) in Autumn.
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Herb.thumb.png.7056b39cd8a7b668cba09fbd72bd2eda.png)

The onions will grow in the meadows, and lose their flowers in autumn.
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Onion.png.296defc27463046381474e4d4acd8403.png)

The roots will grow in the meadows, and the annual ones will die in winter.
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Root.png.b8942d7a17dd19596ae3f7a63038152d.png)

Future plans
As mentioned before, I intend to continue development on this mod, reworking other aspects of banished's natural world and introducing more variety. Some ideas for this include reeds growing on the river banks, and an update to rocks and ores. Other suggestions are always welcome!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Discrepancy on April 11, 2017, 01:57:22 AM
Brilliant :)

I decided to start a game with it, and the varied (natural diversity) forests look excellent, as it should be. You have created an awesome mod already. Well done.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 02:01:39 AM

:D  You make me happy!


I had started to think of all these things and was about to start sketching
for a mod. Came home from shopping and there it was, already a WIP!


I think all aspects you have presented makes sense and the models are
so good!


Tanypredator was about to expand on her New Flora but she is absent now.
Would it be to much work to add a few new resources? I mean berry bushes.
You already have the start conditions. People love diversity.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on April 11, 2017, 02:33:29 AM
Functional and at the same time eye candy.

Excellent!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Discrepancy on April 11, 2017, 02:58:25 AM
sorry I'm probably not going to be great to check balancing with the vanilla buildings, but

I have a bit more to add:

Wow!, to me it actually feels like a different game. I'm using my small gather with basket spots and I have them set in different parts of the maps, some in forests, others in meadows and some bordering both.

The full meadow ones are only ever harvesting onions and a small amount of mushrooms and roots, while the forest ones will collect berries mostly, plus mushrooms and just a few onions.

Out in the forests I can see many mushrooms, but by the time my gatherer gets there many are gone, I like this. You have made a really remarkable mod.

(http://i.imgur.com/06l2iEz.jpg)

the 'look' and 'feel' has been dramatically changed from the dominating vanilla forests, the small meadows break it up and really make it lifelike.
Haha, a dilemma, why would I want to build upon this beautiful land:
(http://i.imgur.com/xUJIi2D.jpg)


some might be interested in this map seed, it's a good one:
652208702 | Valleys | Medium size | Mild climate | Disasters Off | Medium start
(http://i.imgur.com/xCFsYNu.jpg)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 03:43:51 AM
One small obstacle.
I have a 'gather food' button which I use now and then when there is a food crisis.
To make it work, the vanilla blueberry, mushroom, onion and roots must have this line:

//   Profession _requiredHarvestProfession = "Game/Profession/Profession.rsc:gatherer";

commented out. Else the workers just clear the food away. Poof...

So if you could comment that line out it would be great.
I can not put my file above yours since you probably need the changes for your mod.
This should have no other impact than - when using 'clear resources' you get to keep the food.
Gatherer works as before.

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 03:54:26 AM
Quote from: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 03:43:51 AMElse the workers just clear the food away. Poof...

True, that destruction has annoyed me since day 1...  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 05:11:29 AM
@kid1293 that is very annoying, when you make a new building/profession/resource and all of the new things get harvested into... nothing.

If you delete that code from all of the resources, does that mean that anyone will be able to pick them up regardless of profession? If so I might do so for all of my stuff.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 06:15:57 AM
@Necora - Do so, but test first with/without to see for yourself.

Here's what I did.

edit - Just a side note. Isn't the third mushroom a death cap?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 06:43:31 AM
Wow, these herbs are pretty nice @Bartender. It's even possible to identify the species from your models. May I guess?^^ I can see dandelion, echinacea, thistle, chamomile and poppy on the meadow and in the forest stinging-nettle and huh... hard.. another nettle or stachys and pulsatilla? Your mushrooms are great too. Only the red one I would not eat. ;D

Unfortunately it does not work in the North because you define thatch as building requirement (which is a cool idea) but no thatch can be harvested because it needs your start conditions. So we cannot use it there. My suggestion would be to make another mod where you offer only the model overwrite for visuals and without thatch and all other things. They are already temperature dependent in the North or by the cold realism mod. Also the statusbar and townhall UI as well as the environment.rsc are actually not necessary here and just make conflicts. Separate from that it could be a highly recommended addition also to Nordic games. Either way it is a great work!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 09:06:47 AM
Thank you for all the kind words and feedback everyone ;D! I will try to answer all the questions.

Quote from: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 02:01:39 AM
Tanypredator was about to expand on her New Flora but she is absent now.
Would it be to much work to add a few new resources? I mean berry bushes.
You already have the start conditions. People love diversity.
I have been thinking about adding some berry bushes indeed, or at least an overhaul of the current one. I'm also concidering splitting the roots into different types based on their meshes (I have carrots, turnips and radishes), to make it more consistent with the other foods.

Quote from: Discrepancy on April 11, 2017, 02:58:25 AM
Wow!, to me it actually feels like a different game. I'm using my small gather with basket spots and I have them set in different parts of the maps, some in forests, others in meadows and some bordering both.

The full meadow ones are only ever harvesting onions and a small amount of mushrooms and roots, while the forest ones will collect berries mostly, plus mushrooms and just a few onions.
If you want to make your gatherers fully compatible, the new templates I used are 'NaturalResourceHerbGrass.rsc' and 'NaturalResourceHerbAnn.rsc' for the meadow herbs, and 'NaturalResourceRootAnn.rsc' for the roots that die in winter.

As for the views, there's one thing that got me really excited as I was testing the mod. I was observing a meadow in close view, when a group of deer came out of the forest, and started feeding in the meadows. It looked like they were eating the grasses and herbs, and it just seemed so real ;D.

Quote from: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 03:43:51 AM
One small obstacle.
I have a 'gather food' button which I use now and then when there is a food crisis.
To make it work, the vanilla blueberry, mushroom, onion and roots must have this line:

//   Profession _requiredHarvestProfession = "Game/Profession/Profession.rsc:gatherer";

commented out. Else the workers just clear the food away. Poof...
This is a good suggestion, I will change this for the full release! If you'd like to make one that is fully compatible, see my comment above.

Quote from: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 06:15:57 AM
Just a side note. Isn't the third mushroom a death cap?
It is an Amanita muscaria, or fly amanita in english. Though they are indeed known as poisonous, they are edible when cooked correctly ;).

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 06:43:31 AM
Wow, these herbs are pretty nice @Bartender. It's even possible to identify the species from your models. May I guess?^^ I can see dandelion, echinacea, thistle, chamomile and poppy on the meadow and in the forest stinging-nettle and huh... hard.. another nettle or stachys and pulsatilla? Your mushrooms are great too. Only the red one I would not eat. ;D
You are right about almost all of them! I'm a biologist so I wanted them to be real plants, I'm glad they are recognizable :). The last two forest herbs are in the Lamiaceae family, a mint and an oregano.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 06:43:31 AMUnfortunately it does not work in the North because you define thatch as building requirement (which is a cool idea) but no thatch can be harvested because it needs your start conditions. So we cannot use it there. My suggestion would be to make another mod where you offer only the model overwrite for visuals and without thatch and all other things. They are already temperature dependent in the North or by the cold realism mod. Also the statusbar and townhall UI as well as the environment.rsc are actually not necessary here and just make conflicts. Separate from that it could be a highly recommended addition also to Nordic games. Either way it is a great work!
I am indeed planning to also make a 'visuals-only' version, which only updates the models without making any gameplay changes. That version should be compatible with everything. Aside from that I'm always open to seeing if it's possible to make a compatible version of the full mod somehow.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Neat mod, the plants look so good  :)

Here are some notes from my first play-through...

I have this issue where I set a footprint, but some bundles of thatch are left behind that nobody will pick up (so the structure cannot be built), see attach 1 and 2...

Another thing is the regular forester - within his circle thatch will spawn (does it? - no thatcher's hut nearby)... I need to observe this a while longer, but this may impact on the forester's performance(?)... see attach 3.

Also - is it possible to make the thatcher's circle even smaller? Though he's not that productive, he needs a lot of "real estate"... but still clogs up storage really fast... that will probably change if/when more buildings use thatch - but it would be good to find another use as well...  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
but it would be good to find another use as well...  :)

Perhaps as a fuel bundle?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 11, 2017, 11:16:25 AM
if you change "roots" to carrots,radishes,etc, remember we still need "roots" to make  our rootbeer.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: calli74 on April 11, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
Testing this out today and I really like it. I have however discovered that there is a crash problem if you have Necora's Maritimes Pine set enabled at the same time as this mod. Perhaps you and Necora can get together and figure out what is happening. The crash happens the moment the bani's begin with gathering trees and thatch.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 11, 2017, 12:10:41 PM
nice find CALLI. you saved me trying to find the reason for my crash. much appreciated.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 01:51:06 PM
@calli74 and @brads3 I started a very quick run through with only the NatDiv and PineSet enabled.
If you have NatDiv 1st and PineSet 2nd you get a crash within minutes of playing. If you have PineSet 1st and NatDiv 2nd, it all seems to run fine. I can harvest trees, foods, and thatch with no crashes.

Not sure why, but it would seem that you need the Pine Set above the natural diversity mod in your mod list order.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
Thank you for your feedback everyone! I'm flattered that you are all diving into this so enthousiastically ;D.

Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
I have this issue where I set a footprint, but some bundles of thatch are left behind that nobody will pick up (so the structure cannot be built), see attach 1 and 2...
I have tried this and I can't reproduce this bug myself. I expect that it's a conflict with another mod that changes the citizen template. If it overrides this mod then the citizens don't 'know' that thatch is something they can actually pick up.

Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Another thing is the regular forester - within his circle thatch will spawn (does it? - no thatcher's hut nearby)... I need to observe this a while longer, but this may impact on the forester's performance(?)... see attach 3.
I have observed this as well while testing, and I have a strong suspicion that it is actually intended behaviour that is hard coded by Mr. Luke. It seems that foresters will clear away any kind of resource if that specific one is blocking them from reaching a certain point that they are trying to get to. I expect that he did this to prevent them from getting stuck behind things. Essentially if the game can't find a proper path for them, they just make one themselves :P.
If your forester is in an area that has both trees and grasses growing, there might initially be some lower performance because they need to clear away some grasses that are in their way, but once those are gone there should be no influence. The fact that these thatch bundles were staying there is probably related to what I mentioned above.

Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Also - is it possible to make the thatcher's circle even smaller? Though he's not that productive, he needs a lot of "real estate"... but still clogs up storage really fast... that will probably change if/when more buildings use thatch - but it would be good to find another use as well...  :)
I'm afraid that the thatcher is indeed a bit too productive, this is a good point. I'm not sure if making it even smaller is the right solution, as one function of the building is actually to 'create' meadow areas for the other resources to grow in. If the influence area gets too small, it would kind of lose. I will make some adjustments to the growth rate of the grass, and the amount of time it takes to harvest them, as I think those are set a bit too short.

Quote from: Necora on April 11, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
but it would be good to find another use as well...  :)
Perhaps as a fuel bundle?
This is something I've thought of as well, among other things. I'll look into what other use would work best, I think it does need another way to get rid of extra stock.

Quote from: brads3 on April 11, 2017, 11:16:25 AM
if you change "roots" to carrots,radishes,etc, remember we still need "roots" to make  our rootbeer.
Good point  :)!

Quote from: calli74 on April 11, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
Testing this out today and I really like it. I have however discovered that there is a crash problem if you have Necora's Maritimes Pine set enabled at the same time as this mod. Perhaps you and Necora can get together and figure out what is happening. The crash happens the moment the bani's begin with gathering trees and thatch.
@Necora and I already briefly discussed making compatible versions of our mods, so I'm sure we'd get to the bottom of this. I think that visually our mods should go perfectly together ;D.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 02:12:46 PM
@Bartender visually you say?....

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPine1.jpg.570b419b7f369d794e1e1d083c8af8b8.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPine2.jpg.89cd7056ae3444b7448e4c8cc9798db0.jpg)

Pine Set Blueberry Bushe and Apple Trees in the meadow...
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineBlueberry.jpg.1bf886b58c29997e1ce83518bf462e6c.jpg)

Pine Set Chanterelles and Natural Diversity Mushrooms...
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineChanterelle.jpg.fbed20b4a113bb8406b428db233ad4e8.jpg)

Meadow edge with deer and Pine Set fiddleheads...
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineFiddlehead.jpg.13d8469ec14e6abf938367a2a55beab0.jpg)

I'd say they do!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 02:04:56 PMcan't reproduce this bug

Yeah, I think I messed up on my stockpiles... Just came back, built dedicated piles for everything... et voilà.
New piles, barns and limits still confuse me on occasion, one needs to be careful not to forget one type  ??? 

Sorry about that  :)


QuoteIf your forester is in an area that has both trees and grasses growing

Ah, so the bundles were from the grass the forester cut for cleaning his circle, not spawned... okay, got it.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 02:26:18 PM
I can't say you're one of a kind, you are two!
Beautiful scenes when combined.
This is going to be so good!

Thank you both for making the effort to make these mods!

@Necora  - are you making more of your trees a start condition?
@Bartender - don't forget the bushes!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 11, 2017, 02:32:21 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
I have this issue where I set a footprint, but some bundles of thatch are left behind that nobody will pick up (so the structure cannot be built), see attach 1 and 2...
I have tried this and I can't reproduce this bug myself. I expect that it's a conflict with another mod that changes the citizen template. If it overrides this mod then the citizens don't 'know' that thatch is something they can actually pick up.

first , congratulations for your first mod :)
keep it up :) you are talented :)

2nd : you talked about the citizens template....
most people overwrite it because it is the only way to see them pickup the new customs....

have you added this paragraph to your citizens ? so they can continue to work as intented ?

StorageDescription storage
{
   RawMaterialFlags _storageFlags = Edible | Fuel | Tool | Wood | Stone | Iron | Health | Clothing | Textile | Alcohol | Grain | Fruit | Vegetable | Protein | CoalFuel | Custom0 | Custom1 | Custom2 | Custom3 | Custom4 | Custom5 | Custom6 | Custom7 | Custom8 | Custom9;
   bool _areaBasedLimit = false;
   bool _available = true;
   int _volumeLimit = 100;
}
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 02:51:50 PM
@kid1293 all of the trees are in the Maritimes Tree Pack mod which will overwrite all vanilla trees with my models. The resources are not included though, I just wanted it to be a tree pack so you can use it with other mods that introduce other wild resources like the wild flora/flax/bees mods here.

http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1597.0
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 02:55:06 PM
I am two steps after you guys.
Downloaded but didn't test.  :-[
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 11, 2017, 03:27:09 PM
Zoom hack is trippy...

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH01.jpg.3c1207c57ea2860faeddf6fb0e0a4846.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH02.jpg.e3a2fd09f64af9964db7a14b66b7a55d.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH03.jpg.252f3f6f9d98d226c84bfdef2cd0a159.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH04.jpg.6650dd8c5b2d522fbf8a7a175c75dc36.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH05.jpg.8c295398e9babf9ddcedeb42c8dedd06.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH06.jpg.35a0e2f6852f037b8ad3a88611169e02.jpg)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/NatDivPineZH07.jpg.d6c2927986dc527423504954d0d11b2a.jpg)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 11, 2017, 03:38:48 PM
Quote from: Necora on April 11, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
but it would be good to find another use as well...  :)

Perhaps as a fuel bundle?

@Necora Excellent :)  There is a firebundler in CC mod, but was wondering about perhaps a woodchopper/lumber yard that also does firebundling as well, so that there can be a range of options for the 1 building, especially when there is excess of something that can't be used straight away.

@Paeng which stockpiles ended up working for you?

@Bartender this is really beautiful, I did say over in the WIP thread that it was, but wanted to echo my sentiments here too!  :)

Would love to see a super MM Bio start :D  Oh the fun we could have, with yours, Necora's and possibly @tanypredator all together ...  love, love, love! 


{EDIT} Just saw the new screenshots Necora, oh wow!  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: QueryEverything on April 11, 2017, 03:38:48 PMPaeng which stockpiles ended up working for you?

The one for "Construction Materials"...  :)

I won't forget again, not on this one - by now I got HUGE piles of them...  :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: calli74 on April 11, 2017, 04:06:02 PM
Tried it again as Necora said with pine set above and now it's working great and looking so beautiful. Will test further tomorrow.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 11, 2017, 05:23:09 PM
Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: QueryEverything on April 11, 2017, 03:38:48 PMPaeng which stockpiles ended up working for you?

The one for "Construction Materials"...  :)

I won't forget again, not on this one - by now I got HUGE piles of them...  :D


Thank you :)  You avoided the "Great stockpile dots" disaster I was about to create :D haha
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 11, 2017, 07:33:21 PM
i do hope you get this t work with other start settings. the CC medium+ that adds animals to the start does not show thatch on load. after i switched the pine mod above this and rearranged my mod order, i tried to load the CC northern frontier start. my cannons turned black. good luck figuring that glitch out.
    that glitch is caused by moving the pine mod in the mod order. will have to investigate further.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 12, 2017, 04:08:53 AM
@brads3 you know, I think the black cannons might be my fault. I have a feeling I might have named a black metal material 'cannon' because that is what I originally used it for and the name stuck, but CC might also name their texture map for their cannons as 'cannon'. If so, then with the Pine Set above CC you might get black cannons. I didn't realize that materials can also over-ride each other, if this is the case then I will change the name for an update.

Can you try moving CC above the Pine Set to check that it changes the cannons back to what they should be?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 12, 2017, 06:06:30 AM
@Bartender , nice that you have brought this over to this site.  Very nice looking mod, I especially like the looks of the thatcher's hut, I like vanilla matches.  I read you moved roots & onions to the meadow but not what you replaced them with in the forest.  To me it is natural to pick up firewood (branches or twigs to burn), I do it all the time in real life, it's only natural  :)

Edit:  Those red mushrooms must be soup mushrooms!  Wagon Vendors be Ware !
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 08:14:08 AM
Again, thanks for the kind words everyone ;D!

Quote from: Paeng on April 11, 2017, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 11, 2017, 02:04:56 PMcan't reproduce this bug

Yeah, I think I messed up on my stockpiles... Just came back, built dedicated piles for everything... et voilà.
New piles, barns and limits still confuse me on occasion, one needs to be careful not to forget one type  ??? 

Sorry about that  :)
No problem, I'm glad the issue is resolved!

Quote from: kid1293 on April 11, 2017, 02:26:18 PM
@Bartender - don't forget the bushes!
I certainly won't, though I expect that they will come in a future update. For now I want to focus on getting the balance right on what's already there ;).

Quote from: RedKetchup on April 11, 2017, 02:32:21 PM
have you added this paragraph to your citizens ? so they can continue to work as intented ?

StorageDescription storage
{
   RawMaterialFlags _storageFlags = Edible | Fuel | Tool | Wood | Stone | Iron | Health | Clothing | Textile | Alcohol | Grain | Fruit | Vegetable | Protein | CoalFuel | Custom0 | Custom1 | Custom2 | Custom3 | Custom4 | Custom5 | Custom6 | Custom7 | Custom8 | Custom9;
   bool _areaBasedLimit = false;
   bool _available = true;
   int _volumeLimit = 100;
}

Yes I have this added, I thought that there was perhaps a mod that had something else here that was causing the issue, but luckily it turned out it wasn't ;).

Quote from: brads3 on April 11, 2017, 07:33:21 PM
i do hope you get this t work with other start settings. the CC medium+ that adds animals to the start does not show thatch on load.
I'm afraid I can't do anything about the thatch not spawning in start conditions that belong to other mods, as I cannot alter those. One thing I didn't think of however, is that in those cases it becomes impossible to build any of the buildings that require thatch, since the thatcher's shed itself requires thatch to be built. I guess the easiest solution to this would be to change it so that it no longer requires thatch, but that means that I would have to adapt the model. I'll think a bit more about this.

Quote from: Abandoned on April 12, 2017, 06:06:30 AM
I read you moved roots & onions to the meadow but not what you replaced them with in the forest.  To me it is natural to pick up firewood (branches or twigs to burn), I do it all the time in real life, it's only natural  :)
I haven't replaced them with anything in the forest currently, although I did increase the spawnrates for the blueberries and mushrooms to compensate. having some branches spawn naturally for firewood sounds like an interesting idea! I'll give that some thought as well.

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 09:01:58 AM
Here's a summary of what I've gathered from your feedback so far :). Some of these things were mentioned over at BL, but I prefer to keep one list with everything in it. If I've missed anything please let me know!

These are changes I will definitely make before the release:
- Decrease the productivity of the thatcher's shed.
- Enable laborers to harvest foods and herbs (instead of destroying them).
- Change the resource limit icon of the thatcher's shed to a thatch icon.
- (internal) change the name of the grass resource file to avoid conflicts.

There's some things of which I'm still thinking about how to solve them. Wether they will be included in this version depends on how much time their solution will take:
- Find a way to make thatch obtainable when playing with start conditions of other mods (where it doesn't spawn naturally).
- Find other use(s) for thatch (possibly as fuel).
- Find a way to make the grasses sway in the wind (without giving them the billboard effect).

Ideas that might be included in future updates:
- Berry bushes
- Reeds
- Twigs and branches (for firewood)
- Separation of roots into specific root vegetables.

Ofcourse I'm still interested in more feedback and/or ideas :)!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 12, 2017, 09:25:05 AM
What material do you currently use for the crops that appear and disappear?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 12, 2017, 09:36:06 AM
anyone else having a problem with RED'S fodder with this mod enabled? i wanted to see how the grasses looked together but i am not producing fodder.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
@Necora It's a material I created myself, for which I had to adapt the BillboardMaterial.srsl. It's basically a version of the normal BillboardMaterial, except that it doesn't give the billboard effect or the swaying, just the withering. The code was pretty complicated, so I don't think I would be able to figure out how to adapt it in such a way that I would keep the swaying, but not get the billboard effect. I will look at how the swaying is coded for the FoilageMaterial, perhaps I could adapt that to my wishes.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 12, 2017, 10:40:41 AM
if i move RED"S fodder mod above yours then the thatch turns to fodder.i have fodder all over my map at start.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 12, 2017, 10:59:55 AM
oh!

did you used NaturalResourceGrass.rsc name ? because thats the one i used :(
i should have used NaturalResourceRKGrass.rsc in expectation and to make sure in case that someone would use exactly that name too :(
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 01:09:17 PM
Haha, that must look interesting! I didn't think of the possibility that someone else would do the same either @RedKetchup, I will add it to my list of changes before the release ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 12, 2017, 02:13:19 PM
it does look different. big meadow fields. i have enough grass to feed 100 zoos now.gg wiz/ i wouldn't try to use it. my fodder is wayy overpowered.funny too,the fodder stores as fodder in barns. the thatxh is suppose to go to piles.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 12, 2017, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 01:09:17 PM
Haha, that must look interesting! I didn't think of the possibility that someone else would do the same either @RedKetchup, I will add it to my list of changes before the release ;).

it is my fault :(
i didnt forsee that situation. i should have this is why i 99% use weird names in my templates to make sure that situation doesnt happend.
sorry ><
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 12, 2017, 03:46:02 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 12, 2017, 09:01:58 AM
Here's a summary of what I've gathered from your feedback so far :). Some of these things were mentioned over at BL, but I prefer to keep one list with everything in it. If I've missed anything please let me know!

These are changes I will definitely make before the release:
- Decrease the productivity of the thatcher's shed.
- Enable laborers to harvest foods and herbs (instead of destroying them).
- Change the resource limit icon of the thatcher's shed to a thatch icon.
- (internal) change the name of the grass resource file to avoid conflicts.

There's some things of which I'm still thinking about how to solve them. Wether they will be included in this version depends on how much time their solution will take:
- Find a way to make thatch obtainable when playing with start conditions of other mods (where it doesn't spawn naturally).
- Find other use(s) for thatch (possibly as fuel).
- Find a way to make the grasses sway in the wind (without giving them the billboard effect).

Ideas that might be included in future updates:
- Berry bushes
- Reeds
- Twigs and branches (for firewood)
- Separation of roots into specific root vegetables.

Ofcourse I'm still interested in more feedback and/or ideas :)!

(internal) change the name of the grass resource file to avoid conflicts.
Probably not a bad idea to have a standard naming convention in place, across the board, as @RedKetchup said he normally has his special way of doing it, that way it will be hard to 'accidentally' come across it.
So, R:, BT ( @Bartender ) NC etc ...  it's not a bad idea (you fill in the blanks, haha).
And, if you do share your resource files, at least you will remember where you first got it from etc, as needed.  :D

-- Find a way to make thatch obtainable when playing with start conditions of other mods (where it doesn't spawn naturally).
Why not use the idea Red had for his Fodder chain?  Build that Thatcher house, and a harvester/grower, using the idea of the Forester, the thatch is grown within a radius by the named grower, and harvested, then sent off to the thatcher.

From what I understand, unless your resources are included in the next CC build, they won't work with CC maps natively, so modders need to "put" it on the map manually.  Using the forestry system as a base is effcient, and no need to wait for 'seeds' from the trader.  It would also look very natural in a created field.  The Garden Walls mob by RK is a superb example of how this all functions.

- Berry bushes
- Reeds
-- With reeds, maybe ask @kralyerg if there is a way to use the CC resource, that way both mods can utilise the same Reeds output and the reeds are then able to be used across the board in terms of existing buildings.  It may also then mean that you can start building a start condition that is compatible CC straight from load. :)
-- Berry bushes ...  sweeeeet beats!!  Please, I would love a giant oversize wild Blackberry bush to show up in game some time, it's been on a wishlist for ages :D   Woot Woot :)

----------------
I played for ages yesterday (well, tried to, lol) and I really loved this as a start option, I loved seeing little areas grow, and the deer grazing in the fields, very lovely, very well done.  I built buildings I normally do as my start then realised I didn't have the resources cos they are CC start items, so, it took me a little, then I want back to 'basics' start of gameplay, and it was a new / old learning curve again, but, so far, on this save, no deaths :D

Excellent work (again) I've enjoyed this new start. :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 12, 2017, 08:54:29 PM
Hello! What you have done looks great, so much better than my first attempts :) But I still will suggest you my results, since our mods are uncompatible as far as I can see, and maybe you can include some elements of my mod. What I mean:
1) I have introduced wild cereals, very useful in a hard starts, but I have had only one model and I was going to improve it to make it sway in the wind, but now... By the way, you can use evergreen trees material to make something to sway in the wind, "Material\Foliage\FoliageMaterial.rsc".
2) I have made one bush - wild rose - you can use it as one of your bushes. And what I personally would like (probably many people would not agree) is to change berries model into blue and red mix and to include all new berries there (to make my wild rose produce berries instead of rose hips). It would decrease the amount of resource types and allow to use new berries as usual berries (to make ale for example).
3) I have introduced wild flax, the model is rather simple and it may be called overpowered, but I thought that some flowers are needed in the forest, and it is too very helpful in a hard start.
4) There are wild bees, though overspawned and the 'trump' model wants improvement.
5) There is a full manual gathering system that you can use.

What I would also like to suggest:
6) I have used mod 'cold realism' that makes all plants to disappear at winter. I think that at least all green leaves have to disappear.

My mod resource is attached.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 13, 2017, 04:50:15 AM
@tanypredator I've also added a range of things, including flax, and perhaps others have too. We did have a brief idea at BL to perhaps make a 'natural resource mega mod' or something like this. Would you be interested? Then we can make it so that everything is compatible (such as your flax not working with CC or my flax) and people have access to all wild goodies not just a select few.

Balancing something like this would be hard, because there are just so many options. But, we could find a way, or perhaps introduce themed start conditions the same way CC does, to give some choice and diversity rather than throwing everything into one super rich map start.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 05:10:12 AM
@Necora, I'm still interested in this game - at least as a player. How can we make it compatible - I know only one way, to put everything in one place (i.e., tree template). All my files are uploaded, if I can do something more, I'll try.

I've looked into BL website, but wasn't able to find anything there at all, the navigation there is a bit strange. Is your mod with flax here?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 13, 2017, 05:24:38 AM
@tanypredator the discussion was a brief couple of posts on Bartender's dev thread over there. @Bartender was thinking of adding more resources asides from just visual changes, so the convo was nothing more than 'hey, it would be cool if we can have all of the new resources in one mod or a combination mod so that you can use all new things spawned by the trees rather than one or two.'. So what I think would be good is to have like how mega mod is done, get all of the mods that introduce things to the trees and put them into one cohesive package. The issue is that between yourself, me, bartender, CC and others, there is just an awful lot of new things added which might make the forests very powerful in terms of food (one reason CC doesn't put wild grains, it is too easy to then get all your food groups right away). I agree with this, which is why it might be a neat idea to make the mod have a couple of themed starting conditions with different combinations of trees and resources from different modders for variety.

So for example, one start could be a pine start which has musrhooms, fiddleheads, bees, and a few different herbs and roots. Another could be a deciduous start that has deciduous trees, berries, mushrooms, bees. Another could be a more meadow start that has grasses, flowers, flax etc. See we can mix our resources together, rather than at the moment players having to choose between our individual mods as to what they want to use. Any items not associated with a start condition in each option can be put into a specific forester hut, so you can still access them from all start conditions.

This post is the most thought I've put into it though tbh!

My flax is in the Pine Set mod, but it is spawned only through the specific pine forester, not attached to vanilla forester trees. I wanted the pine forester to be a 'materials' kind of production more than food. But I named the flax 'rawmaterialflax' which I believe is different to how you named yours?


Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 13, 2017, 06:04:44 AM
hi, just a thought, Tany, I very much like New Flora especially the wild oats and your blue flax, would hate to lose them, I think your blue flax is the prettiest.  The wild oats have saved my town many times, with all the different seeds, even with specialized trading posts and special orders, it can be 20-30 years to get grain, so no use for mills, bakeries, etc...  It would be nice to have wild rose and wild bees also incorporated into more mods.  I personally like to pick and choose different start conditions.  These new forests and meadows look fantastic, separate or together.  Would certainly need herbs in all starts, and could use twig or branches for firewood.  Interesting concept.

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 06:34:49 AM
@Necora, I can't understand, why do all this require starting conditions? It can be made by just different mod versions, the same way I have separately wild oats, wild roses, flax, bees and several versions of new flora - all uncompatible between each other. One can just choose the version he likes most. The only reason to make new start conditions is to try to make new plants self-spawned, not spawned by trees.

My flax is RawMaterialLinen though named flax in game. I'm not satisfied with this 'linen' model, but other mods have taken my attention.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 06:37:59 AM
By the way I like to have wild grains, I would prefer to increase hardness in other ways - to enhance diseases, for example, maybe to increase food consumption (it seems to me that there already are such mods). But I'm now just starting to get into all new stuff.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 13, 2017, 07:19:05 AM
Start conditions, maybe this is the wrong term, but what ever it is on the start menu that defines the tree set used on the map. CC does this, so you can have different tree sets with different wild resources. This way, you don't have to load up a different mod each time, you just choose one. I don't know, I just figured it would be an easy way to implement it. It is just an idea!

The non-compatibility between them is the main issue. Because if someone wants to add just your wild bees, they cannot then use the new things by any one else because the game is so restrictive on how we can add new items to the map. Where as we can package it up together, in 1 big mod or lots of different versions it doesn't matter, but at least then people can use natural resource made by more than 1 person.

And the grain comment wasn't a criticism, i was just agreeing with the example of making things too powerful so having to take care of it. I also like the wild oats!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 07:24:14 AM
Ok, anyway, my sources are out there for everyone's use and I'm ready to rework them if needed, just tell. I would certainly like to have all possible variants to play!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 13, 2017, 09:57:59 AM
As I've said before on BL, a Bio-Megamod sounds like a great idea! I personally don't know everything that is out there yet though, so I will do my research and then share my opinion on how we might go about this :).

@tanypredator Thank you for sharing your ideas, and for making your source files available for use! I wouldn't feel comfortable with cherry picking out of them for my own mod, but I have tried some of your work and I think they would be great in a megamod kind of thing.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 10:23:29 AM
Then I'll wait for your decision. I don't mind 'cherry picking' at all, but I understand, that each mod-maker want to make everything as he like :) However I suggest you to look into my manual gathering system. To be honest, I like the icons that I have collected :) As for models, I believe that you can make much better, if you have time and desire, but you are free to use mine.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 13, 2017, 10:29:02 AM
Just another thought regarding combining mods into mega mods.  I would hate to see a mega combination eliminate the separate mods to choose from, especially tany's. I like the choice of using New Flora, or using just parts.  I tried CC and any tree changing starts seemed to be more than my video card could handle, the game froze up.  I am glad to see they are making it modular.  I would hate not to be able to use any of these mods because they are combined and too big and demanding for system.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 13, 2017, 12:14:52 PM
@Abandoned, I don't think that anyone is going to delete their separate mods after combining, at least I don't :) The problem is that now if you choose my mod you won't be able to see and use all the advantages of this mod, for example. I'm not going to use CC too, it is too large, but this mod looks very promising.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 14, 2017, 04:54:32 AM
@tanypredator I agree, this and other new mods look very good.  They change the whole look of the map, that's why I like to pick and choose, to set the mood.  I am glad to see CC breaking up into modules, the number of mods is getting a bit overwhelming but would not want to part with any.  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 15, 2017, 01:20:50 AM
I'd say that any attempt to combine mods should always have the goal to give more options to the player rather than less ;). So indeed, all the separate mods should remain available in case we set out to do such a thing.

Meanwhile, I'm getting v1.0 ready for full release.

If nothing else comes up, this will be the changelog:
- Grasses will now sway softly in the wind, and get frosted in snowy conditions.
- Grasses will grow slower, and take longer to harvest. This will decrease the productivity of the Thatcher's Shed.
- The Thatchers have complained about leaks in their shed. The roof of the Thatcher's Shed has been replaced by a wooden one, and it no longer requires thatch to be constructed. This makes Thatch obtainable in start conditions introduced by other mods.
- The resource limit icon of the Thatcher's Shed has been changed to match the Thatch icon.
- Thatch is now also useable as a Fuel.
- Food and Herbs are no longer destroyed when harvested by labourers, to avoid conflicts with other mods.
- (internal) The resource files that this mod adds have been given a 'NatDiv' prefix in their name, to avoid conflicts with other mods.

The new thatcher's shed:
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/ThatcherNew.png.fe0d556ded45d1664442ce7e4bd0315e.png)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 15, 2017, 09:19:21 AM
that sounds good. i would like to have teted this mod more,but with the conflicts and the overpowering thatch i have not.this will definetly improve the game. thank you
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 15, 2017, 09:56:25 AM
I certainly want more thatched roof now. :)
Leaking or not.  ;D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 15, 2017, 03:19:10 PM
Personally I'm not very skilled at designing buildings (Those with a good eye may spot that my Thatcher's Shed is in fact an adaptation of the Apiary example), but if anyone wants to do a companion mod with thatched roofs they have my blessings ;).

In other news, v1.0 of Natural Diversity is now available for download!
You can find it here: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=269 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=269)

The promised Light version (which only offers visual updates of the natural resources), is availabe too: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=270 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=270)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 17, 2017, 12:44:02 AM
Thank you for the upate @Bartender :)
Is it at all possible to get an alternate link please?  Possibly dropbox or google drive, I have very patchy internet where I am currently and have odd time outs.  Took me hours to get the original.  :(

I will persevere if you can not.  Thank you :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 17, 2017, 08:01:29 AM
Ofcourse! Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-ZePVZCUPiueHdPcnRHbGtQQzA (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-ZePVZCUPiueHdPcnRHbGtQQzA)

I also had some problems during the uploading, so I guess it's not just your connection ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 17, 2017, 08:14:03 AM
Thank you @Bartender I have it now, worked instantly!!  :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 17, 2017, 12:22:53 PM
thank you for the new link and all the fixes.this looks great. 1 of the things i like is it opens up the maps. instead of having all forests, we now have meadows mixed in.how does this compare to firewood as to burning?? is it 1 thatch=1 firewood log??? if so i would recommend a bundler shed to change it to 10 thatch =1 log.also,do you have plans to build a storage shed for the thatch?? it won't burn well if we leave it in the piles and it gets wet or damp even.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 17, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
At the moment 1 thatch is as potent as 1 firewood indeed. While testing this seemed like an ok balance, but I will definitely keep monitoring it. As I want to make a more elaborate an realistic production chain for the thatch anyway, I think there is a high chance for this to change in some way in the future. Thanks for your suggestions!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 18, 2017, 11:27:06 AM
I am overjoyed with all the positive attention that this mod received after I released version 1.0. While the suggestions for improvements are rolling in (which I am very glad to receive too!), it is time to seriously start thinking about what the next update is going to bring. Ofcourse there will be optimizations, fixes and updates of what is already there, but the most exciting part would be the new content!

Therefore, I present the first sneak peek for v1.1: the Berry Bush.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Blueberries.thumb.png.b8228bc006127f103e89533420c68fdb.png)

Some of you may have wondered why the berry bush is the only plant resource that did not receive an upgrade yet in v1.0. The reason for this is that I was unsure of how to approach this in the most realistic way. Aside from visuals, there are two issues that bother me in the original berry bush.

1. Berries can be harvested year round, while the bushes should not have fruits in winter.
2. When villagers harvest the berries, they cut down the whole bush.

Now the first problem could be resolved by making the berry bush die in cold weather, but this would not be realistic either, as berry bushes are perennials and live several years. The second problem is one that is hardcoded into the game; resources simply get destroyed the moment they get harvested. A few days ago I finally found the perfect solution to both problems, partly inspired by how DarkBibou handled the wild fruit trees in his Tree of Life mod.

In summer, this new Berry Bush will drop berries on the ground, which can be harvested by the gatherer. In winter, The Bush will lose its leaves, and will not drop any berries. The bush itself can be harvested too, but will only give firewood.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/BlueberriesDrop.png.ca71375750d214b56fb50af88798dd2a.png)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/BlueberriesW.thumb.png.e35d89c0706dd6eeab9c2a4fc6bc4d54.png)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 18, 2017, 11:30:37 AM
Looks very good. Only I'm afraid that foresters will cut them down.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 18, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
They won't ;), at least not as part of their normal gathering (sometimes foresters cut something down if it's blocking them). I made a separate template for the bushes, so they are not treated as trees by the game. I will probably make a new menu button for cutting down bushes.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 18, 2017, 12:34:35 PM
i agree with TANY. have a debate with myself here.do we want to cut them when we clear an area or do we want to leave them and have bushes in our towns to eat from?yet at the same time we don't want to clear each bush manually.that could be debated a lot i guess.if you can make coded "trees" give berries then i would suggest adding apples and maybe pears to the gatherer as well.then towns can have berry bushes and apple trees around our houses that someone actually will pick from. that is more realistic. could the bushes drop firewood pieces in the winter?
   did you decide which berries you are making?? are you making straw,rasp,blue,black berries or just a berry? can all of them be coded to use as a blueberry ? such as some of the ales are made from blueberry but the building to us shows "berry".
    if it is easier for you,make this a separate mod to add to the other instead of an upgrade.
   
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 18, 2017, 01:59:01 PM
@Bartender if you want any of my trees and resources just ask :) I'm not saying they are any good, but might save you some time. I've got apple trees, apples on the ground, and a new apple raw material mesh than the vanilla one. I've also got blueberries and cranberries which are a different style to yours but might make for diversity. I was going for low bush wild types for mine but something isn't sitting right with them, I think I need to make better textures.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on April 18, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
New berry bushes would be great @Bartender. The vanilla one is not perfect and has a strange animation. I have never seen a blueberry bush moving back and forth in the wind. The new bush in the picture looks promising. For my taste they are a still too big. I think they should have the height of your other plants. At least blueberries.

For your light version I suggest to not add new resources like this or that new berry. Better to stay with blueberries or only "virtual species" of berries. In the nordic mod I would rename blueberries in just berries then. It would be consistent to mushrooms, roots and herbs.

Your idea of making them perennial is interesting. It bothers me too that they are totally harvested and vanish in winter. But it's a good way for gameplay and balancing and just more abstract. So not really a bad solution. I just suggest to care about to not run into another unrealistic workaround by solving the first problem. I mean, to gather berries dropped down and laying some meters away from the bush is strange too. And also to get firewood from thin blueberry bushes is not realistic. Just a few thoughts to this nice mod. :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: ancientmuse on April 18, 2017, 08:06:17 PM
Personally speaking, I think all of the different varieties of wild foods should all stay the same function as the vanilla wild foods.

I really don't see any need to overcomplicate things with individual buttons to gather different things, individual gather buildings, etc.  It would start to get to be too much.

You should just be able to use your labourers (busy labourers mod) to gather "wild foods" or "herbs"... or use your gatherer's hut to do the same thing without having to specify this or that. 

All the different mushroom varieties, onion varieties, berry varieties, any herb varieties, etc etc should all just simply function as "wild foods" or "herbs" for your gatherers/labourers to collect, just like the vanilla ones do.  It's only when they put them into storage that you can see all the different types of berries that you've collected without having to tell your workers to collect each one seperately... that could get a bit frustrating as the different variety types get to become more and more should Bartender decide to continue adding different types of wild foods to his mod.

Keeping things simple and straight forward usually works best for these types of mods.


Just my $.02 worth.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 18, 2017, 11:27:30 PM
I just want to agree with several things.

"can all of them be coded to use as a blueberry ? such as some of the ales are made from blueberry but the building to us shows "berry"" - I too think that the result of gathering should be just 'berries'. I see the problem with it if you want to add red berries (and I think all player want that too :) ), but that can be solved by making red-and-blue berry mix as a rawmaterial model.

"For my taste they are a still too big. I think they should have the height of your other plants. At least blueberries." - agree. Blueberry isn't a tree, it is a small plant. Raspberry may be of a bush size and rowan may be a tree size - that latter I wanted to make, but delayed...

"I just suggest to care about to not run into another unrealistic workaround by solving the first problem. I mean, to gather berries dropped down and laying some meters away from the bush is strange too. And also to get firewood from thin blueberry bushes is not realistic. " - I suggest to leave them naturalresourse. Not very realistic to see them cut down, but easier to work around. Although for bigger bushes (such as rowan) your idea might be more suitable. Maybe there can be 1) usual small berries as naturalresourses and 2) berry trees as trees spawning berries on the ground. Maybe also apples if you like the idea. Maybe blooming appletrees  ::)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 19, 2017, 12:27:05 AM
can we get a clarification on what a blue berry is??? i see some mention a small plant. here we call huckleberries blue berries. they do grow on a bush similar to the pic. rasberry grows on thorny shrubs about the height of the reeds. strawberries grow close to the ground. we do have a black berry similar to rasberry but black. and what grandma called black caps which are smaller in size than a blackberry are sweeter.they are shaped like the tip of a finger. not trying to confuse anyone or cause a debate. was thinking that in different parts of the world things have different names.
  i'll try to explain my post earlier as well.  what we see on screen as to red or blue or black berries in texture and what it is named when it goes to storage and what the game thinks it is as to use in the coding ,i think can at times be different. so while we see red or black or blue berries being gathered,they can all be called berry when stored. yet some buildings use blueberry only,so the hope was  for all the berries to be able to be used as blueberry so those buildings will still function. there is a tavern that makes ale and it says it takes berry but it never uses any except bluebery.hope that helps.
  as to the size of the bush,that might depend on how it ends up being coded and how players use them. reason i mentioned apples or pears was we could set a gatherer in our towns. houses could have bushes and a tree or 2 in their yards that produce fruit. to me that is historically correct. i know many of the old small family farms have 1 or 2 apple trees in the front yard.generally people tried to live near their food sources.we had berry shrubs on the edge of our lawn when i was growing up. i don't envy BARTENDER at all on figuring it all out.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 19, 2017, 12:35:29 AM
I must chime in with @ancientmuse and @tanypredator - You should absolutely
keep it as blueberry resource (with different models). Later you or someone else can
make a food chain to sort out different berries if we want that.

We are spamming the game with food right now. All kinds.
It is getting to much for my taste. But the opposite - a few meat,grain,vegetables...
can be a bit boring. Hard to keep a balance that suits all players.

Berry bushes about the size of your other replacements. Goes well with your grass/thatch

Might as well harvest the whole bush. Don't break the game mechanics too much.
And besides - there are already spawning things all over the map now.

Hmmm..  I like apple blossoms. Nice touch @tanypredator !
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 19, 2017, 12:52:30 AM
Quote from: brads3 on April 19, 2017, 12:27:05 AM
can we get a clarification on what a blue berry is??? i see some mention a small plant. here we call huckleberries blue berries. they do grow on a bush similar to the pic. rasberry grows on thorny shrubs about the height of the reeds. strawberries grow close to the ground. we do have a black berry similar to rasberry but black. and what grandma called black caps which are smaller in size than a blackberry are sweeter.they are shaped like the tip of a finger. not trying to confuse anyone or cause a debate. was thinking that in different parts of the world things have different names.

Hmm, you are right :) I suppose I thought of blueberries more close to what your grandma called black caps - here in Urals we have full forests of that berry.

No, I googled, it isn't.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on April 19, 2017, 01:39:12 AM
That's what I imagine when I think of blueberries. So I would not mind if there are small or bigger patches of low bushes covering the forest floor in summer. At least in some locations to gather wild fruits. But it's my idea of a typical Nordic landscape and not a specification for this mod here. It's all up to Bartender.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on April 19, 2017, 03:47:25 AM
My blueberries are like the forests from Tom and drawing from Tany. I love to walk in these kind of forests, picking these kind of small berries from small, low plants. It's tedious, but worth the effort. But on this webpage we are from different countries, different continents and the plants are different. American blueberries are bigger, growing on larger bushes. They don't grow wild here in northern Europe, but we can buy a plant and grow them in our gardens. They give a much larger harvest but are not quite as sweet and tasty as the wild ones. The same thing with raspberries and blackberries; you can grow big berries from high plants in your garden but the small berries from the smaller wilder bushes are sweeter.

I am pretty sure, it's the same thing with a lot of common plants: They look different; are different on different locations of the world. I can remember, that I was a bit shocked, as Tany made her wild oats. Here it's a terrible weed. The only weed I know of, that has a law, that says the a farmer have to remove it from his fields, but obvious on other parts of the world, it's just a wild form of oats, that can be used as food.

I think we have to get used to this and accept, that the nature in Banished doesn't always look like the nature outside our windows. If someone like Tom or Necora have an ambition to make a mod with a geographical theme, of cause the plants ought to fit to that part of the world but otherwise; as long as it looks good and make sense. it's good to me.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on April 19, 2017, 04:12:49 AM
Quote from: Nilla
American blueberries are bigger, growing on larger bushes.

I've heard of the fact that in America everything is bigger. But I always thought it was a stereotype. ;D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on April 19, 2017, 04:32:01 AM
I vote for general "berries". A small hut to process them further into all the different types (strawberries, blueberries, cranberries,...) can be added later if the player chooses too. But berries should always be available to the player just like "fish". The inventory window is already cramped too much (we need an update to this too; buttons to sort by limits/flags).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 19, 2017, 04:53:01 AM
I'm gonna chime in on what a blueberry is... as they are a huge cash crop around here so there are lots of them.

There are two 'types' of blueberry, farmed type or 'high bush' and wild type or 'low bush' (which is also farmed, but hey). The wild type are what Tom and Nilla are referring to, and are small shrubby bushes that grow no more than 1 ft from the ground in forests/borders of forests and thickets mainly, but spread out about 30cm radius or more. They produce small berries less than 1cm in diameter, which are a range of colours from dark blue even purple to almost white and are very sweet. These are the ones you'll find growing wild here and also in places like the Alps in Northern Italy/Southern Austria. The high bush variety are the ones that have been farmed for a long time and so have been selected for their height (easy harvesting) and yield, which is a lot of larger berries over 1cm in diameter. These are more uniform in size, shape, and in (pale) blue colour, and are a much fleshier berry with less taste than their wild low bush counterparts. In Canada, you'll mostly find the wild type low bush variety in Nova Scotia, where as the larger high bush variety are farmed out west.

As for the natural resource discussion, I agree with not changing vanilla resources in the 'light version' (which is what I'm sure you made that for anyway), but I am all for different berry bushes and rawmaterials, I like the visual variation and also the more realism of having a mix of things to harvest from the map (mainly because it is what I do here at home, there are just so many berrys to get). As long as the vanilla stuff remains there, I don't see any problem introducing more variety from the map in the full mod because you are not going to break anything you just have to update the vanilla buildings to include them in recipes.

Having said that, I think my main concern is overpowering the maps with too much food, regardless of the type of it. I have learnt that it is very easy to overpower a gatherer, and it should not make the game too easy to feed yourself in the beginning with too much easily accessible on the map, which is why I am very keen on themed starts that allows you to chose from a mix of things that are either regional or selected to your tastes. It is also why I am keen on specialized forester/gatherer combinations that allow you to add some interesting diversity to the maps or unique ways to get certain resources such a the fodder by Red and your grasses.

Perhaps not having lots of specific clear resource buttons would be best, so if we do add lots of berries, then only a specified berry gatherer can go out and get them and everyone else ignores them unless clearing area for construction, like I've done with the traps and dens and things. Only a trapper can collect them.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on April 19, 2017, 05:18:21 AM
It's all up to Bartender.I love the forest if @Bartender wants to add more berries just enjoy you that I will be more colorful forest.In English there are many different names of berries:Billberry.Blackberry,Blueberry,Black Mulberry ,Cloudberry ,Cowberry.Cranberry ,Huckleberry ,Raspberry ,Wild Strawberry.I send a couple of new pictures :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 19, 2017, 05:37:22 AM
Wow, thank you all for the suggestions! I'm going to try to cover every subject that has been brought up and give my thoughts on it, but please let me know if I missed anything ;).

What is a Blueberry?
This is perhaps the most important question, and let me start by saying that the english language is horribly confusing in that respect. A lot of the fruits that are commonly refered to as 'berry', like strawberry or raspberry for example, are actually not berries in the biological sense. At the same time, tomatoes and bananas are actually berry fruits, while we would never refer to them as such. The most clear definition of a 'berry' in the common sense that we could give would be 'small, pulpy, edible fruit', which is actually not that clear at all.

Now what is refered to as 'blueberries' in english are actual berries, luckily. The only problem is, as you can see on the wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueberry), that there are 19 different species within the genus of Vaccinium that are all called blueberry. This is where a lot of the discussion came from, and I think Nilla summarized it nicely in her post. We all have different ideas about what a blueberry is supposed to look like, because we are used to seeing different species.

This first mesh that I made is based on the Northern Highbush Blueberry (Vaccinium corymbosum). I chose this species because it is native to North America, which I believe would be the location Mr. Luke had in mind when creating the game.

Scaling
Scale is always a bit of a tricky thing in games. If I would have made my meshes for the other natural resources in proportion to the size of the villagers, they would have been about 3 pixels tall at the closest zoom range. This is not desirable both from a gameplay as well as a visual perspective, so I decided to keep them on roughly the same scale as the originals.

Since blueberries are naturally quite a bit larger than onions, I can make them more true to their natural size. This Northern Highbush Blueberry for example, grows to 1.8–3.7 m (6–12 feet), for which the current size fits nicely (I've attached a picture of the bush besides a full grown tree, for a clearer reference). On a side note, harvesting firewood from these bushes would not be unrealistic in that respect. With all my meshes, I try to adapt their sizes to what is natural yet still feels right in the game.

Resource types: Generic v.s. Specific
I'm afraid this is one of those recurring discussions that will never find one clear answer. Yet I agree with everyone that it's an important one, and that we modders should seriously ask ourselves this question every time it becomes relevant. Personally, I have doubted about this for a while, but in the end I believe that simplicity is key. Therefore, all variants will give the same, 'berry' resource. This is what I've done for the roots, onions, mushrooms and herbs, and for now I have decided that it is for the best if it stays that way.

Gathering
As all dropped berries will give the same resource type ('berries'), they will simply be picked up by the vanilla gatherer. In that sense, nothing changes to both the automated and manual gathering of the berries as a resource.

Spawning
I understand and appreciate the doubts that some of you might have about the proposed change to the spawning behaviour. Therefore I will try to explain some aspects of this change more clearly.

Firstly, in all my tests on spawning behaviour, I have never seen a resource get spawned more than 2 blocks away from its 'parent'. Also in the tests of this berry bush in particular, the berries have always spawned at a distance that looks like they could indeed have fallen from the bush. This does indeed mean that this type of behaviour does not work for smaller meshes. I would have to see how to go about this if I were to include smaller berry bush species, as there the distance would become unrealistic. It could mean that I only do bigger variants, but I haven't made a choice on which species I'm going to cover, so I'm keeping all options open for now.

Secondly, I do feel that the inclusion of this behaviour offers several advantages over the vanilla situation:
- It allows for more realistic placement of the berry bushes on the map (in small patches rather than single bushes spread out through the forest).
- The inclusion of the meadows in v1.0 already meant that the specific placement of the Gatherer building now has an impact on which resources are being gathered. This behaviour would make that feature even more meaningful.
- It introduces a trade-off effect between harvesting the berries and harvesting the bushes. In a cold winter, you might want to harvest some bushes for some quick firewood, but this does mean that the next summer, you will harvest less berries. Inversely, keeping the berry bushes means that you cannot use that piece of land for any other harvesting purposes.
- As mentioned in the original post, it offers a realistic way of introducing seasonality to both the mesh of the berry bush, and the harvesting of the berries.

I hope that answers everything :). I really appreciate all the thoughts, it helps steering the development of the mod in the right direction.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 19, 2017, 06:03:30 AM
Great to see that you take this all so much seriously! :)

"Firstly, in all my tests on spawning behaviour, I have never seen a resource get spawned more than 2 blocks away from its 'parent'." - there must be a peremeter "int _seedDistance = 1;" that rules this distance, but I have not tested it deep enough.

"I would have to see how to go about this if I were to include smaller berry bush species, as there the distance would become unrealistic. It could mean that I only do bigger variants" - as I suggested, you can make both small berries that would be naturalresource and big bushes, that would spawn berries on the ground.

My worry about foresters concerned the situation, when they clear place to plant their trees. They may clear bushes out as they do with your grass (or it seems to me that they do). Maybe better to add such bushes as a trees in this case, but that may be too complicated to make it compatible with all new trees and foresters mods (at the moment I'm enjoing new Necora's Maritimes Trees :) ).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on April 19, 2017, 06:15:51 AM
Most 'berries' are indeed bushes, so with a generic bush it all makes sense.

Who knows? Maybe soon we have a way to deal with the undergrowth in new ways.
Your grass meadows/patches are proving that.

I say, go for it the way you find best. This far it is very good! I am sure you do it
with respect for the forest and the people living in the forest.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 19, 2017, 08:42:09 AM
i wonder if those low lying berries are dependant on colder climates?i know the berries here will not even live down south.this site is becoming educational.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 19, 2017, 08:57:07 AM
Not sure about cold, but I think that wild animals eat those berries before cold comes :) You can find some berry leaves to put in tea at winter forest, but not berries. Or maybe only very few and rare.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 19, 2017, 09:29:35 AM
i didn't mean they grew in winter but that they need the cold.apples need a cold dormant period to produce. or it could also be the acid soil from all those evergreens too.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 19, 2017, 01:33:32 PM
It's both actually :)! Most blueberry species have a preference for very acidic soils indeed, and need a cold winter to bear fruit.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 19, 2017, 05:40:43 PM
Quote from: tanypredator on April 19, 2017, 08:57:07 AM
Not sure about cold, but I think that wild animals eat those berries before cold comes :) You can find some berry leaves to put in tea at winter forest, but not berries. Or maybe only very few and rare.
Still hoping someone will do a health mod that uses herbal teas :)
With the berry & honey, and it has a health flag :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 22, 2017, 10:53:31 AM
As roughly a week has passed since my last update, here's v1.1 sneak peek #2! I'll try to do these once a week, to give some insight into the development proces and to gather some feedback while I'm working.

Currently I'm doing some exploration into several new directions, just to see where the ideas take me. I will use the results of this exploration to decide what the scope of the next update is going to be, after which I can work out those ideas in more detail.

Where last week was a week of berry bushes, this week my main focus was on another plant that is high on my wishlist: Reeds.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Reeds.thumb.png.fbfec1e676ba0eabf32c50e3377b300b.png)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/ReedsW.thumb.png.c46c54c9b54ab9ab11d8755437e728a2.png)

As you can see in the pictures, these reeds will grow on the waters edge naturally. I don't intend to have them grow along all the riverbanks; there will be some with reeds and some without. I'm still fiddling a bit with the spawning behaviour, but I'm already pretty happy with how natural it looks. As for all my resources, I intend to make several different species, for a nicely varied environment.

Thatch changes?
I'm currently in a heated debate with myself about how to deal with the resource for reeds. One of their main uses in the real world ofcourse is for thatching as well, but I feel that both grasses and reeds giving the 'thatch' resource directly would make it even more difficult to attain a healthy balance.

One idea I have is to create a production chain for the thatch: Instead of directly receiving thatch from harvesting grasses or reeds, you would receive 'grass bundles' or 'reed bundles'. These would then need to be processed by a new building into 'thatch', that can be used for construction.

A nice advantage of this change would be that these 'grass bundles' and 'reed bundles' could also serve as a basic resource for other new production chains (for example paper or wild cereals from grasses, or fishing equipment from reeds). A disadvantage could be that it becomes harder at the start of the game to obtain thatch and start building.

Updates to old models
The last thing I've been working on this week is to do experiment with some improvements on the models of v1.0. @Necora and @RedKetchup kindly suggested and explained to me the concept of multi-materials, which enables a whole new range of possibilities to make their behaviour even more natural. This means for example that on top of losing their flowers in winter, my herbs will also be able to have swaying leaves, and to get snowed under in winter (as suggested by @tanypredator). I'm not sure yet how exactly I am going to make use of this new technique, as I am still trying to figure out some new tricks with the Material files, but I'm pretty confident that I will manage to improve the old models conciderably for v1.1.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Herb06W.png.cecee042044e9498f83550b2d6702671.png)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Mushroom03W.png.e95562010085db411d261b8146f93300.png)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 22, 2017, 11:11:49 AM
Wow! Reeds are impressive! Maybe even too much. They are so thick and bright. But already very beautiful! And if I see right, you added some spikes to grass too, very nice.

"for example ... wild cereals from grasses" - I like that idea! I wanted to suggest it, but wasn't sure and wanted to test more. That will give more interesting options for grass use.

You are making great progress! Look forward to your new additions.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 22, 2017, 11:44:26 AM
Yeah, they look nice...

Interesting, here we are again with possible regional differences - to me they look like cat tails (Typha), which around here are not really used for thatching... the reed we use for thatching has a more feathery look (almost like a grain, wheat or such...

Can you tell a little more about the plant your reed model is based on? Just curious...  ;)

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 22, 2017, 06:40:01 PM
i figured they were cattails.as to the use i would leave the reeds as reeds,so it won't disrupt CC then. we could try bringing similar mods from the CC dock set to WOB.if you change thatch to grass,do realize you start other mods. you are warned. grass=fodder=livestock feed.that will have many requests for additional mods. to me that idea does make sence.did you decide to release the berry as a individual mod or going to keep designing and then just release a larger mod set?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 24, 2017, 06:28:03 AM
The sentiments towards the thatch production chain seem to be universally positive both here and over at BL, so I'll get working on that :).

Quote from: tanypredator on April 22, 2017, 11:11:49 AM
Wow! Reeds are impressive! Maybe even too much. They are so thick and bright. But already very beautiful! And if I see right, you added some spikes to grass too, very nice.

"for example ... wild cereals from grasses" - I like that idea! I wanted to suggest it, but wasn't sure and wanted to test more. That will give more interesting options for grass use.

I am still fiddling a bit with the texture and the AO on them, they need to be bright enough for the decolouring in winter to give the right effect, but that makes them way too bright in summer. I tried to correct this with the AO, as it does not influence the decolouring, but then they become way too dark if it rains. I'll just need to find the right balance ;).

Well spotted about the grasses! I'm just playing around a bit with some variants for those, as I felt that the meadows were still a bit boring.

Quote from: Paeng on April 22, 2017, 11:44:26 AM
Yeah, they look nice...

Interesting, here we are again with possible regional differences - to me they look like cat tails (Typha), which around here are not really used for thatching... the reed we use for thatching has a more feathery look (almost like a grain, wheat or such...

Can you tell a little more about the plant your reed model is based on? Just curious...  ;)

You are quite right, these are Typha indeed! This is one of the reasons why I want to introduce the production chain, not all types of grasses and reeds are used for thatching. I will ofcourse include some variants that are used for thatching ;), but I don't want to make separate resources out of each of them.

Quote from: brads3 on April 22, 2017, 06:40:01 PM
i figured they were cattails.as to the use i would leave the reeds as reeds,so it won't disrupt CC then. we could try bringing similar mods from the CC dock set to WOB.if you change thatch to grass,do realize you start other mods. you are warned. grass=fodder=livestock feed.that will have many requests for additional mods. to me that idea does make sence.did you decide to release the berry as a individual mod or going to keep designing and then just release a larger mod set?

Yes I will make sure that the reeds are compatible with CC if possible, to avoid getting double resources. I asked RedKetchup about his grasses too, to see if I can make the grassbundles compatible to his mod as well.

I'm indeed going to keep working, and then release everything as an update to Natural Diversity :). Ofcourse there might be some things that won't make the final cut if I don't feel quite happy about it, but I'm quite sure that the berries will be included ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 24, 2017, 07:15:35 AM
"I am still fiddling a bit with the texture and the AO on them, they need to be bright enough for the decolouring in winter to give the right effect, but that makes them way too bright in summer. I tried to correct this with the AO, as it does not influence the decolouring, but then they become way too dark if it rains. I'll just need to find the right balance"

On your pictures they are too bright (dark) at winter too. I suggest to make them thinner and add leaves, if possible. And to make them covered with snow at winter.

Also I, for one, would be glad to test your intermediate results, if you need some more feedback  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 24, 2017, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 24, 2017, 06:28:03 AM

Yes I will make sure that the reeds are compatible with CC if possible, to avoid getting double resources. I asked RedKetchup about his grasses too, to see if I can make the grassbundles compatible to his mod as well.


np , i ll send you a copy of my code of GW:Utility
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 26, 2017, 09:46:34 AM
Well, finally I'm ready with my update.
Here is a version of New Flora (with bees) compatible with NatDiv (gathering tools allow you to gather Bartender's herbs and annual roots). There are also changes in Flax models - I've made a mistake first time, making the plant too low, and gathered flax model was not realistic. Here I tried to improve them, tell me, if I should change back. https://www.dropbox.com/s/n09rzm7ozy25hjc/NewFlora.pkm?dl=0
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: TheOtherMicheal on April 26, 2017, 04:35:01 PM
@tanypredator  :) Great news
I'm downloading it now but I have to wait until I finish work today before I can test it in game (it's 7:30 on Thursday morning for me as I type this)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 26, 2017, 06:53:24 PM
Thank you @tanypredator :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 06:34:26 AM
@tanypredator Thanks for the tips! I will do an open beta before I release the next version, so everyone who wants can test it :).

Another week has passed, so it's time for sneak peek #3!

This week I have worked on quite a few different things, mainly consisting of bits and pieces for several ideas. Coincidentally there is a recurring theme though.. water! I guess @Necora inspired me with his wonderful riffle mod!

Firstly, the reeds of last week received an upgrade (they now have leaves), and I started work on the first variant. This one is a Phragmites australis, a widespread species which is commonly used for thatching.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Reeds2.thumb.png.1e0ad69fa4521dd8aa920b91356a5b46.png)

Secondly, I have been looking at other ways to improve the natural look of the rivers. I am currently testing the automatic spawning of rocks on the riverbed. These are decorative only, the bannies can't reach them, and they don't block the construction of bridges or semi-aquatic buildings. The current meshes were not intended to be water rocks, so if you think they look a bit weird then we are in agreement. Just see these screens as a 'proof of concept' ;). I intend to make other meshes that are flatter, as the erroding power of the water would make them.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/WaterRocks.thumb.png.d60a7d9efc412033980c5b255b6d7a73.png)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/WaterRocksBridge.thumb.png.ec4fefea6f807aa22d0f67311c32030b.png)

Thirdly, the plans for the thatch production chain are taking shape nicely, and it's definitely going to be included in the next version of the mod. I will share more information on how the chain is going to work exactly once there is something to show ;).

And then, last but most certainly not least, I have made a very exciting discovery yesterday evening. While I was testing an idea for one of the buildings of the production chain, I created something that I didn't even think would actually be possible. I made a little video of it being placed, just to prove that this is not a late April fools joke :P.

https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D (https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D)

Indeed, it is a placeable pool of water! It looks exactly like the normal water, though ofcourse it is entirely decorational. I have not yet tested if this could be used to make custom rivers and such, but theoretically it should be possible. I will have to play around a bit to see if I can make connecting pieces.

If I manage to create such a 'custom water tool' it will not be a part of Natural Diversity though, as it wouldn't fit within the focus of this mod. I'm thinking about adding it to the decoration pack that I promised, or just making it a separate mod all together.

That's it for this week, please share any thoughts or ideas :)!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 29, 2017, 06:53:32 AM
Quote from: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 06:34:26 AM
-----
Firstly, the reeds of last week received an upgrade (they now have leaves), and I started work on the first variant. This one is a Phragmites australis, a widespread species which is commonly used for thatching.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Reeds2.thumb.png.1e0ad69fa4521dd8aa920b91356a5b46.png) (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/Reeds2.thumb.png.1e0ad69fa4521dd8aa920b91356a5b46.png)
Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity


-----
Secondly, I have been looking at other ways to improve the natural look of the rivers. I am currently testing the automatic spawning of rocks on the riverbed.

-----
And then, last but most certainly not least, I have made a very exciting discovery yesterday evening. While I was testing an idea for one of the buildings of the production chain, I created something that I didn't even think would actually be possible. I made a little video of it being placed, just to prove that this is not a late April fools joke :P .

https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D (https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D)

Indeed, it is a placeable pool of water! It looks exactly like the normal water, though ofcourse it is entirely decorational. I have not yet tested if this could be used to make custom rivers and such, but theoretically it should be possible. I will have to play around a bit to see if I can make connecting pieces.

If I manage to create such a 'custom water tool' it will not be a part of Natural Diversity though, as it wouldn't fit within the focus of this mod. I'm thinking about adding it to the decoration pack that I promised, or just making it a separate mod all together.

That's it for this week, please share any thoughts or ideas :) !

Wow, @Bartender that's a lot of progress this week, congratulations!!  :)

1)  woohoo, Australis represents!  Go Aussie, Go!  :)  (I may be an Australian, lol)

2)  Those rocks look terrific, they are definitely going to be a positive to the game. :)

3)  Excellent, between what I found the other day (check the details here (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1635.msg31593#msg31593)), using @kralyerg terraform mod, with @Necora's riffle mod, I can definitely see a future for inland customisation for working fishing holes, ponds and new creeks - a very good headstart on this has been made, and between the 3 of you I can certainly see our maps becoming more and more broad!! 

Imagine finally being able to create a working backyard pond, or fishing hole, the things that can happen now! 

Very thrilling times ahead :) 
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on April 29, 2017, 06:55:58 AM
@Bartender

The video screen says unsupported video type or invalid file path.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: The Pilgrim on April 29, 2017, 07:08:22 AM
This is stunning. It's amazing the things that have been unlocked over the last couple of weeks that were assumed to be impossible. Great job!!!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 29, 2017, 09:21:54 AM
beautiful, just beautiful. good job.  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 29, 2017, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 06:34:26 AM

And then, last but most certainly not least, I have made a very exciting discovery yesterday evening. While I was testing an idea for one of the buildings of the production chain, I created something that I didn't even think would actually be possible. I made a little video of it being placed, just to prove that this is not a late April fools joke :P.

https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D (https://webmshare.com/play/rZw9D)

Indeed, it is a placeable pool of water! It looks exactly like the normal water, though ofcourse it is entirely decorational. I have not yet tested if this could be used to make custom rivers and such, but theoretically it should be possible. I will have to play around a bit to see if I can make connecting pieces.

If I manage to create such a 'custom water tool' it will not be a part of Natural Diversity though, as it wouldn't fit within the focus of this mod. I'm thinking about adding it to the decoration pack that I promised, or just making it a separate mod all together.

That's it for this week, please share any thoughts or ideas :)!

What the ....... ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??


i passed weeks and weeks on that and never succeeded to make that work (NMT pools, NMC canals .....)

you will need to share with me !!!!!! lol
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 03:03:25 PM
Thanks everyone :)!

@embx61 Perhaps your browser doesn't support .webm files.. I have attached some screenshots ;).

@RedKetchup I'm just polishing up some things so that I can give a clear explanation of what I did exactly, then I'm happy to share! Perhaps I'll write a little tutorial so everyone can benefit from it. I would love to see your canals with the real water flowing through them :)!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on April 29, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
Placeable water! That is a huge discovery.  :)

Now the question: can it be placed at different levels? I'm thinking Red's ponds (and canals, but they are at water level). But even water tanks and the little fountains, troughs and irrigation ditches that we already have from various mods might be able to benefit from this.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 29, 2017, 03:38:58 PM
i think thats the BIGGEST discovery ever made in this game :)
i saw you talked about the rivermaterial.slrl.....  thats something i could never figured out cause i have absolutely no knowledge of programming.
making mods with the toolkit is not programming.... in my mind ^^


cant wait to start updating the medieval canal :) that will be GORGEOUS !
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 04:20:17 PM
Haha, I guess I should start calling myself a coding magician then :P.

@elemental It can be placed at different levels. All it requires is a simple plane, which can be placed wherever you want, including as part of bigger meshes. The colour and reflection of the water do depend very much on what's below it though.. most of it is actually achieved because the terrain is coloured blue at low levels. Without that the water looks transparent, though you still see the movement and closeby reflections.

@RedKetchup The .srsl files are rather complex indeed. I am slowly starting to understand how they function, but it's still very hard to figure out how to change things. There's no way to know how the game handles them exactly, so I'm literally changing variables one by one, testing their effect in the game every time, untill I find one that does something :P.

I've managed to create quite a few interesting new materials by doing this though, which I use for my plants. Most of them combine existing features, like being able to have decolouring meshes that sway in the wind at the same time. I'm also working on a material that only shows up in winter. I believe there's still many more possibilities to discover :).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 29, 2017, 04:46:44 PM
Quote from: Bartender on April 29, 2017, 04:20:17 PM
I've managed to create quite a few interesting new materials by doing this though, which I use for my plants. Most of them combine existing features, like being able to have decolouring meshes that sway in the wind at the same time. I'm also working on a material that only shows up in winter. I believe there's still many more possibilities to discover :).


ha!

like the time i spent once with trying to make ice stalagtites appear just in winter under roof houses ^^
again, i am so bad at those complicated .slrl (slrl = seriously ^^)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on April 29, 2017, 04:59:06 PM
oh my goodness, look at that.  How amazing, great work @Bartender  :)   But Mr @RedKetchup that doesn't mean I don't still want that beautiful fishing pond of yours from NMT, when you get to it, no rush.  :)

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on April 29, 2017, 06:00:12 PM
@Bartender

Yeah, I guess that my browser not support the format.

But now I see some pictures and all I can say is that more and more some of the modders seem to do and find stuff with the Modkit what was deemed impossible. :)

Great stuff Buddy :) Cheers and going to pop open a beer (oops..euh.... of course a case of beers) :)



Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 29, 2017, 08:26:18 PM
BT, you and NECORA have definetely changed the game. the new textures is much appreciated.i am still trying to get used to these and RED's fodder fields.so many options. i will asl this though. when you dug the ground out was there water already there? i do know from when we dig down in CC some places has water and some is more just darkness. what does your pond look like over the dark holes? if you can lower the ground and have it rounded and not square can you also raise it and make new hills? how high can you go?would it be possable to start making flat topped hills that we can build on or will the game set the texture to rock at a certain height?
     yep i have many questions now. i see crazy potential and possabilities.to give you some idea of how crazy,after learning from RED's tutorials i attempted stuff with the old FS13. my goal was to make a super map by joining several maps together.with the testing i did i still think it would have been possable to create a much larger map 3 layers deep. a 16X map was done but the cameras were very glitchy once you went past 4x.don't shoot me if i come up with an idea that is near impossible.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on April 29, 2017, 08:47:14 PM
Quote from: brads3 on April 29, 2017, 08:26:18 PM
when you dug the ground out was there water already there?

No, thats the problem. when you dig, the water doesnt magically .... appear.
even if you tag the tile as Water or DeepWater, the water still doesnt appear. definitely something is missing ...
and Bartender found it while playing with RiverMaterial.srsl file.

here what that file is looking :
#include "../constants.srsl"
#include "../lighting.srsl"

struct Vertex
{
int4 position : 0;
int2 texcoord : 1;
float4 normal : 2;
}

struct Interpolant
{
float4 position : clipposition;
float4 texcoord;
float3 viewDir;
float4 screenProjection;
float4 lightFogAlpha;
#ifn DETAIL0 float4 shadowProjection; #end

}

struct Textures
{
texture2d water : 0;
texture2d frame : 1;
texture2d reflection : 2;
texturecube highlight : 3;
shadow2d e_shadowMap : 5;
}

program Normal
{
stream(Vertex) uniforms(VSConstants)
vertexshader basevs
{
float3 position = input.position.xyz.cast(float3) / float3(48.0, 48.0, 256.0);

float4x4 localToWorld = tc.transforms[0];
float3 worldPosition = localToWorld.cast(float3x4) * float4(position, 1.0);
output.position = gc.worldToProjection * float4(worldPosition, 1.0);

#if GL3
float4x4 so = float4x4(
float4(0.5, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0),
float4(0.0, 0.5, 0.0, 0.0),
float4(0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0),
float4(0.5, 0.5, 0.0, 1.0));
#else
float4x4 so = float4x4(
float4(0.5, 0.0, 0.0, 0.5),
float4(0.0, -0.5, 0.0, 0.5),
float4(0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0),
float4(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0));
#end

output.screenProjection = so * output.position;

output.lightFogAlpha.xyz = GetLightingFog(float3(0.0, 0.0, 1.0), output.position.z, lc.nearPlane, gc.fog);
output.lightFogAlpha.w = input.normal.z;

output.texcoord.xy = input.texcoord.xy.cast(float2) / 1024.0;
output.texcoord.zw = output.texcoord.xy;

output.viewDir = worldPosition - gc.cameraPosition.xyz;

#ifn DETAIL0
output.shadowProjection = lc.shadowProjection[0] * float4(worldPosition, 1.0);
#end
}
vertexshader vs : basevs
{
output.texcoord.w += gc.time.x * 0.01;
output.texcoord.y += gc.time.x * 0.02;
}
vertexshader lakevs : basevs
{
output.texcoord.wz += gc.time.xx * float2(0.01, 0.005);
output.texcoord.y += gc.time.x * -0.006 * 0.95;
}
stream(Interpolant) uniforms(PSConstants) textures(Textures)
pixelshader ps
{
// too many instructions for ps_2_0 calling GetShadowHigh... limit river to medium shadow sampling
#if DETAIL3
float shadow = GetShadowMedium(e_shadowMap, input.shadowProjection, pc.texelSize.x);
#else
float shadow = #ifn DETAIL0 GetShadowValue(e_shadowMap, input.shadowProjection, pc.texelSize.x) #else 1.0 #end;
#end

float3 normal;
normal.xy = sample(water, input.texcoord.xy).wy - 0.5;
normal.xy += sample(water, input.texcoord.zw).wy - 0.5;
normal.z = 1.0 - sqrt(dot(normal.xy, normal.xy));

float2 screenCoord = input.screenProjection.xy / input.screenProjection.w;
float4 frameBuffer = sample(frame, (screenCoord + normal.xy * 0.05));

float d = dot(-normalize(input.viewDir), normal * float3(4.0, 4.0, 1.0));

float3 dir = reflect(normalize(input.viewDir), normal);
float3 bloom = sample(highlight, dir).xyz * 1.5;

float fresnel = d * d;

float4 ref = sample(reflection, (screenCoord + normal.xy * 0.6));

float diffuseAmount = 0.33;
float refractAmount = (fresnel) * (1.0 - diffuseAmount);
float reflectAmount = (1.0 - fresnel) * (1.0 - diffuseAmount);

float3 refractColor = frameBuffer.xyz;
float3 reflectColor = ref.xyz + bloom * ref.w;
float3 diffuseColor = float3(0.5, 0.55, 0.5) * shadow;

float3 lighting = diffuseColor * diffuseAmount;
lighting += refractColor * refractAmount;
lighting += reflectColor * reflectAmount;

lighting = lerp(lighting.xyz, pc.fogColor.xyz, min(saturate(input.lightFogAlpha.z), pc.fogColor.w));
lighting = lerp(frameBuffer.xyz, lighting, frameBuffer.w);

output.color.xyz = lighting;
output.color.w = input.lightFogAlpha.w;
//output.color.xyz = frameBuffer.xyz;
//output.color.w = 1.0;
}
stream(PixelOutput)
}


i tried at some point to change the material attached to a .png to RiverMaterial.rsc .... and i ve got only errors so i dont know what Bartender did... but he is gifted :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 29, 2017, 10:31:04 PM
Wow. Just WOW!!! I knew, that these .slrl files hide treasures for mod-makers, but until now noone was able to dig into them. I wonder if it become possible now to make a new material for spring tree blooming!

Thank you, Bartender, for your work and discoveries! And yeah, NatDiv is already great and becomes more great every time!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on April 29, 2017, 10:47:54 PM
I have to say I appreciate that some of the Modders are going out of their way to try to discover new things.
I am too quickly bored to dig in all that code and keep testing and testing with no results so my hat off to you.

I have to say though that Luke could have been here a bit more helpful.
If Bartender would not have stumbled on this by accident we still would be thinking that it was impossible to place the in game water on the map.
He post some stuff on his site about making a game editor and other C++ code snippets. Mostly low level code what is maybe nice for programmers but won't do much for us modders as we don't have the source code.

It would be very nice if he extended this to sometimes show a snippet how to work with some of the deeper files like the slrl files in the Mod Kit.
and a snippet about how he does his animations would be helpful too.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 30, 2017, 12:05:12 AM
Thanks for all the kind words everyone :)!

Quote from: brads3 on April 29, 2017, 08:26:18 PM
BT, you and NECORA have definetely changed the game. the new textures is much appreciated.i am still trying to get used to these and RED's fodder fields.so many options. i will asl this though. when you dug the ground out was there water already there? i do know from when we dig down in CC some places has water and some is more just darkness. what does your pond look like over the dark holes? if you can lower the ground and have it rounded and not square can you also raise it and make new hills? how high can you go?would it be possable to start making flat topped hills that we can build on or will the game set the texture to rock at a certain height?

as RedKetchup explained, the water doesn't appear by itself. My pond will look the same no matter where you place it ;).

Now hills are a very interesting idea! I changed some values from negative to positive.. and yes! it's possible:
(http://i.imgur.com/Src2Od2.jpg)

It looks a bit weird with the underwater terrain texture on it, but that's something I can change ;). Unfortunately most buildings cannot be built on hills, because of the way they are coded. They would either flatten the terrain, or show a red tile if you try.

Quote from: tanypredator on April 29, 2017, 10:31:04 PM
Wow. Just WOW!!! I knew, that these .slrl files hide treasures for mod-makers, but until now noone was able to dig into them. I wonder if it become possible now to make a new material for spring tree blooming!
I would love to be able to change the timing of the seasonality! Reversing the process for a winter appearance is definitely possible, but I'm not sure about shifting it or changing the length of the period. It seems that the .srsl file takes that information from elsewhere, so I would not be able to alter it. I haven't tried everything yet though, so maybe I'll find it one day ;).

Quote from: embx61 on April 29, 2017, 10:47:54 PM
I have to say though that Luke could have been here a bit more helpful.
If Bartender would not have stumbled on this by accident we still would be thinking that it was impossible to place the in game water on the map.
He post some stuff on his site about making a game editor and other C++ code snippets. Mostly low level code what is maybe nice for programmers but won't do much for us modders as we don't have the source code.

It would be very nice if he extended this to sometimes show a snippet how to work with some of the deeper files like the slrl files in the Mod Kit.
and a snippet about how he does his animations would be helpful too.

I wholeheartedly agree! There are many parts of the code that are very difficult, if not impossible, to understand without knowing the game code behind it. If Mr. Luke would share some insight into these parts it could help us immensely, who knows what other crazy things might actually be possible. Working my way through these srsl files to try to understand them is a very slow process, while it shouldn't have to be if I knew what every part did. It's obviously rewarding to do this, but there might still be a lot of things I'm missing because I don't know where to look for them. Another limiting factor is that I can only go by what's already in there; perhaps there are options that Mr.  Luke created but in the end didn't utilize in his files. We would never be able to find those.

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 30, 2017, 12:39:36 AM
setting buildings on top of the hills not working does make sence. did you check how tall the hills can go?i take it according to our mountains there isn't much height we can gain.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on April 30, 2017, 01:38:22 AM
We cannot build much on hills, but what about hill plants? There was a mod, making trees to grow there, but as for me, it didn't look good. I was thinking on what specific plant could look good on hills, but nothing came to my mind. Dwarf trees? Now I think that maybe you can let your grass to grow higher, to cover small hills, maybe, herbs too?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 30, 2017, 02:44:15 AM
Quote from: Bartender on April 30, 2017, 12:05:12 AMUnfortunately most buildings cannot be built on hills

Nice, some flat top hills will definitely improve the landscape...  :D

As for building on top - well, in time it might be possible to apply some techniques like Red's second/third floor buildings or Kid's tree Houses... keep an access point at the foot of the hill and the building on top will be "usable"  ;)

Also some (ghosted?) ground plants as Tany suggested should become possible... probably depends how exact one can measure the height levels...

More cool beans...  :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 30, 2017, 03:07:13 AM
With a small hill like you have, plus the ghosted 2/3/4 floor buildings, you could certainly make a hilltop building, couldn't You? 

Imagine creating a pond with the new resources, then surrounding 1/2 side with a raised hill, pine trees scattered around, and peeking out from the top of the hill, overlooking the pond, glistening with sun sparkles and little riffles, a beautiful tall house, filled with a family of Bannies, at home eating their hard earned fish & chips, after labouring all day in the local forest encampments ...  ahhh .... bliss ...

There is hope for our Bannies yet.
Cool beans, indeed. :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 30, 2017, 03:33:40 AM
@brads3 I will do some tests to see how high they can get ;).

@tanypredator I've been playing around with this idea a bit, it would work similar to the rocks that I made spawn on the riverbed. One complication is that bannies can only harvest things up to a height of 2.0, and most hills and especially the mountains are much higher than that. Anything grown above that would have to be entirely decorational, but then there would need to be a clear distinction between what can be harvested and what cannot. For the water rocks this is not a problem as the waterline makes this distinction. I will have to do some more testing to see if I can achieve some natural looking behaviour for the hills and mountains that doesn't result in confusing gameplay.

As for what to grow there, I have been testing it with pinetrees, as OwlChemist did in his old mod. Ideally I would want a combination of different resource types though, for a proper natural look.

@QueryEverything @Paeng Since what I'm using to make the hills is technically a building, it would indeed be possible to make custom buildings on them :). I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to follow up on all these new ideas though, unless I quit my job and start modding full time ;D. What I'll do is to share my knowledge, so that other modders can use these new tricks as well. That way we can revolutionize the game together!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 30, 2017, 04:11:04 AM
Quote from: Bartender on April 30, 2017, 03:33:40 AM
@brads3 I will do some tests to see how high they can get ;).

@tanypredator I've been playing around with this idea a bit, it would work similar to the rocks that I made spawn on the riverbed. One complication is that bannies can only harvest things up to a height of 2.0, and most hills and especially the mountains are much higher than that. Anything grown above that would have to be entirely decorational, but then there would need to be a clear distinction between what can be harvested and what cannot. For the water rocks this is not a problem as the waterline makes this distinction. I will have to do some more testing to see if I can achieve some natural looking behaviour for the hills and mountains that doesn't result in confusing gameplay.

As for what to grow there, I have been testing it with pinetrees, as OwlChemist did in his old mod. Ideally I would want a combination of different resource types though, for a proper natural look.

@QueryEverything @Paeng Since what I'm using to make the hills is technically a building, it would indeed be possible to make custom buildings on them :). I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to follow up on all these new ideas though, unless I quit my job and start modding full time ;D. What I'll do is to share my knowledge, so that other modders can use these new tricks as well. That way we can revolutionize the game together!

I completely understand about time pressures @Bartender, but just the fact that this might now be possible!!!  WOW!

Re the hills & growing items - Kralyerg wrote a mod for those of us who have trouble with Bannies not being able to reach (not tall enough) trees on hillsides, therefore making it unsuitable to build into (some of the mines had this issue), so the growing of new items, I think it would need to be height dependant, or at least be optional OR, at the very least be compatible with Kral's mod, so that those of us who have short Bannies can still work the mines.  :)

Not to throw a spanner in your works - at all, just that I know that there is a problem with that and a work around was made for it.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on April 30, 2017, 06:06:49 AM
We can't build on hills? We can do loads on hills! Simply add the word 'walkable' to the create place part of the pasture, cemetery, orchard, and crop field and they can all be built and work on any height a banie can walk. This would look awesome.

We can't (yet) build roads on hills, but as far as building we can of course do that too. The reason I've not made any hill houses or barns for example is because what height do you make them? The slopes on the map are so variable placement is limited. However if we had a hill tool that made to a known height (like this) it would be very easy to float a collection of buildings at that height and have them build on hills the same as we build on water.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on April 30, 2017, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: Necora on April 30, 2017, 06:06:49 AMwhat height do you make them?

Yeah, that's what I meant about "height measurements"... we'll have to see if Bartender's "Hill Tool" can raise stuff to  (known) levels, numbers that modders can work with, to raise their models to a specific height...  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on April 30, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
Quote from: QueryEverything on April 30, 2017, 04:11:04 AM
Re the hills & growing items - Kralyerg wrote a mod for those of us who have trouble with Bannies not being able to reach (not tall enough) trees on hillsides, therefore making it unsuitable to build into (some of the mines had this issue), so the growing of new items, I think it would need to be height dependant, or at least be optional OR, at the very least be compatible with Kral's mod, so that those of us who have short Bannies can still work the mines.  :)

Not to throw a spanner in your works - at all, just that I know that there is a problem with that and a work around was made for it.

No problem, I'm always happy to receive constructive feedback like this :). I'm aware of this issue with the mod for this that was included in CC, I think that was OwlChemists mod. The mod that Kralyerg made was basically a removal tool for them right? I had a similar problem with the water rocks, but I managed to solve it by making them work similarly to the ghost decorations. As you can see in the screenshot, the bridges just get built over them, without even removing the rocks underneath. I applied the same technique to the hill plants, so this shouldn't be an issue :).

Quote from: Necora on April 30, 2017, 06:06:49 AM
We can't build on hills? We can do loads on hills! Simply add the word 'walkable' to the create place part of the pasture, cemetery, orchard, and crop field and they can all be built and work on any height a banie can walk. This would look awesome.

We can't (yet) build roads on hills, but as far as building we can of course do that too. The reason I've not made any hill houses or barns for example is because what height do you make them? The slopes on the map are so variable placement is limited. However if we had a hill tool that made to a known height (like this) it would be very easy to float a collection of buildings at that height and have them build on hills the same as we build on water.

You are totally right ofcourse :). What I meant was that the vanilla buildings don't like hills, but we as modders can do lots of things to fix that.

Quote from: Paeng on April 30, 2017, 08:43:23 AM
Yeah, that's what I meant about "height measurements"... we'll have to see if Bartender's "Hill Tool" can raise stuff to  (known) levels, numbers that modders can work with, to raise their models to a specific height...  :)
I can definitely do that! I can literally control the height of the hill by just changing a number in the template ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on April 30, 2017, 10:43:23 AM
wonder what other goodies are hiding from us in all these codes.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on April 30, 2017, 01:10:44 PM
Great find @Bartender! I tried something like this month ago adding lake materials to an object but could not make it work. :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on April 30, 2017, 05:57:31 PM
Thanks so much for the answers @Bartender :)  I really do miss my trees on the hills, but not being able to place mines was annoying, hahaha.  :D  Glad to read that there is a middle ground, around the corner :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 08, 2017, 10:18:10 AM
 A new week has started, which means that it is time to look back on the last in Sneak Peek #4!

As the fourth week of development on Natural Diversity v1.1 has passed by, the main body of the update is slowly starting to take shape. So far you have seen the new berry bushes (to finish the gathering resources overhaul), and a beautification of the natural waters with reeds and rocks. This past week, we have worked hard on laying the foundation for a production chain for grasses and reeds.

I say we, and that is not me referring to myself in majestic plural. It implies that the development of this mod is no longer in my hands alone. Some time ago the wonderfully talented Mr. @despo_20 has kindly offered to aid me by designing the buildings required for this production chain, and I have accepted his offer gratefully. His architectural skills are far beyond my capabilities, and are already proving to be of great value for the quality of this mod. Though the rough division is that I will remain responsible for improvements to the natural environment and that Despo will take responsibility for the buildings, decisions on either are taken in mutual agreement.  What you see of this mod may thus from now on be considered a team effort :).

The grasses and reeds production chain
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/5910a2749737c_NatDivchains.jpg.3972ca6bfaa775b528895bdc275b36f0.jpg)

While developing the production chain, our main goal was to lay a foundation that would provide enough use for the introduced resources on one hand, and enough space for future expansion on the other.

Currently the chain has two levels, shown vertically. The first level consists of the two production buildings, the Reaper's Shed for harvesting grasses, and a Reed Farm to harvest reeds. Harvesting grasses produces 'grass bales', a raw material that can be processed by buildings of the second level. Harvesting reeds produces 'reed bundles', which can be either processed or used as a construction material directly. These will also be compatible with the reeds introduced in CC.

The second level includes two processing buildings and another production building. The first processing building is the Thresher, where wild cereals and other edible plant parts are separated from the grass bales. It will produce 'Wild Cereals' and 'Wild Salad', both foods.

The second building in this level is the familiar Thatcher, which produces 'Thatch' from grass bales or reeds. This thatch can then be used as a construction material for buildings with thatched roofs.

The third and final building of the basic chain is the fish trap. It will require reeds to be built, and will be placeable on small rivers. As the name suggests, it produces fish. This offers a way to gather food with a building that does not require thatch,  while also introducing a use for the small rivers on the map.

That's it for this week!  As always any feedback and suggestions are more than welcome :)! To conclude, we would like to share some screenshots of the first two buildings; the Reaper's Shed and the Thresher. Both buildings were made by the amazing @despo_20 !

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/ReapersShed.png.576401894b5512bac528c6e410ed1317.png)

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/Thresher.png.300a5c5fd8bc8d7d1f49a7253fb50ecd.png)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on May 08, 2017, 10:20:59 AM
Wow

Very impressive.

All looks very nice but that Tresher building is just so awesome.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on May 08, 2017, 10:26:54 AM
I think I put my money on the right horse when I decided that this mod
is an alltime must-have !!

Fantastic models and I am very impressed with the clear, simple product chain!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on May 08, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
Great news and nice illustrations :) Will grass or reeds be used as fuel?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on May 08, 2017, 11:06:49 AM
everything @Bartender  does... is so much done like a professional !
like someone working at Blizzard Entertainement inc... or 2K... or Ubisoft....

so jealous lol
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on May 08, 2017, 12:04:04 PM
Lets be glad he is not working for one of the triple A game companies.

We probably would not see him here at all. :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 08, 2017, 12:18:35 PM
Thanks everyone! Please be aware that all credits for the visuals should go to @despo_20 ! My role this week has been mainly behind the scenes ;).

Haha, if any gaming company would want to hire me I would definitely concider it ;D. It's always been one of my many dreams to be a game developer, and I've still got some failed attempts somewhere stored on my harddrive. The modding is bringing me close enough for now though :).

@tanypredator currently that's not part the plan, but we might concider having a fuel option in there somewhere. I do have the general impression that people liked having the additional fuel in v1.0.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 08, 2017, 02:51:35 PM
I'm very glad to be joining the Bartender's project! I love his core idea and I'm really enjoying to develop it with him  :)
I'm very pleased which you like our work. It's a great incentive. Thank you all!

@tanypredator the first goal is to complete this basic chain, but the next step will be to expand it! Fuel will probably be part of the project  ;)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on May 08, 2017, 03:18:24 PM
Your welcome @despo_20

I did not know you were the one creating the houses till Bartender mentioned it.

Great work and I wish the Bartender/despo_20 team a smooth ride in the Banished Modding world :)

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 08, 2017, 03:53:26 PM
I said it over at BL but I'll say it here too. I love the buildings. This mod is looking better all the time.  ;D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on May 08, 2017, 09:29:38 PM
Quote from: Bartender on May 08, 2017, 12:18:35 PM
@tanypredator currently that's not part the plan, but we might concider having a fuel option in there somewhere. I do have the general impression that people liked having the additional fuel in v1.0.

Yes, it is nice to have some alternative to firewood. I'm always run out of logs at first several years :) A wish for using thatch as a fuel took me to Kid's RowHouses, which obtained very nice new texture in his latest update :) These houses use thatch.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on May 08, 2017, 09:38:52 PM
Hi!
Yes, and I have thatch on Forest Outpost too, and as I wrote earlier
I want to use it as a building material.
But then I would be dependent on people having Natural Diversity
loaded all times and I can't count on that. :(
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 03:52:15 AM
Thank you @embx61 !

Your buildings are of great inspiration!
I've studied your creations, along with the ones of Discrepancy, Ketchup and all the other talented modders, before starting.
I'm rather satisfied with the result  :)

@kid1293 what about a natural diversity compatible version?
I know this involves more work, but it's a possibility  ;)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 03:55:54 AM
@kid1293 I would certainly not like good starting sets like forest outpost to need other than basic starting materials or be dependent on other mods.  Collectible branches or twigs would still be my choice for extra firewood, use it all the time.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on May 09, 2017, 04:05:19 AM
Quote from: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 03:52:15 AM
I'm rather satisfied with the result  :)

@kid1293 what about a natural diversity compatible version?
I know this involves more work, but it's a possibility  ;)

You can rely on your guts! They are beautilful buildings!

Quote from: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 03:55:54 AM
@kid1293 I would certainly not like good starting sets like forest outpost to need other than basic starting materials or be dependent on other mods.  Collectible branches or twigs would still be my choice for extra firewood, use it all the time.

Don't worry! I am not going to make a 'NatDiv' version yet.
But it would be realistic in the forest.  ;)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Discrepancy on May 09, 2017, 04:29:31 AM
Looks great @Bartender  & @despo_20  :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 09, 2017, 06:44:52 AM
Quote from: Bartender on May 08, 2017, 12:18:35 PM
Thanks everyone! Please be aware that all credits for the visuals should go to @despo_20 ! My role this week has been mainly behind the scenes ;).

Haha, if any gaming company would want to hire me I would definitely concider it ;D. It's always been one of my many dreams to be a game developer, and I've still got some failed attempts somewhere stored on my harddrive. The modding is bringing me close enough for now though :).

@tanypredator currently that's not part the plan, but we might concider having a fuel option in there somewhere. I do have the general impression that people liked having the additional fuel in v1.0.
Haha, @Bartender I've said few times to my hubby, if any of your (all of you) talented modders could design a plane, I'd have you on in a heartbeat :D  The art here, BL & BI is amazing, love the work, and often show hubby the mods :)

Back to the mod:  Yes please for the fuel, I'm sure I'm not the only player that had more than I could use, and thatch was the perfect replacement for firewood in early game.  :)  I wrote about that (above), and over on your BL thread. :)

I would find that even just in a natural forest I was pulling enough thatch out to use as fuel in the forest community and found that I wasn't having too many freezing spells :)

I also posted a couple of thoughts over on BL which @despo_20 has written back to me about :) 
No harm in asking.

I don't see a reason why there couldn't be a cross over in @kid1293 idea :)  Already his gatherer harvests the thatch, and in turn, a new range of housing could be made :)  (As an optional house, unless Kid included the Thatch resource in his mods).  With the way things are now, who knows what's possible :)  The evolution of the game is exciting!!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 09, 2017, 08:47:41 AM
@tanypredator @QueryEverything We'll definitely be looking at some options for fuel then :)!

@kid1293 a NatDiv version and a non-natdiv version would be a possibility, so that people can choose ;).

@Abandoned I haven't forgotten about the branches and twigs for firewood ;). I haven't arrived at working on the forest yet though.. v1.0's main focus was on the meadows, v1.1 will most likely focus on the waters. It's definitely part of the plan to attack the woods as well at some point though!

@QueryEverything Would plains be acceptable too ;D? I'm afraid my expertise is in biology rather than aerospace engineering. I replied to your suggestions on BL as well :).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 09, 2017, 08:55:08 AM
Quote from: Bartender on May 09, 2017, 08:47:41 AM
@tanypredator @QueryEverything We'll definitely be looking at some options for fuel then :)!

@kid1293 a NatDiv version and a non-natdiv version would be a possibility, so that people can choose ;).

@Abandoned I haven't forgotten about the branches and twigs for firewood ;). I haven't arrived at working on the forest yet though.. v1.0's main focus was on the meadows, v1.1 will most likely focus on the waters. It's definitely part of the plan to attack the woods as well at some point though!

@QueryEverything Would plains be acceptable too ;D? I'm afraid my expertise is in biology rather than aerospace engineering. I replied to your suggestions on BL as well :).

I see what you did there ;)  And scenery is always a welcome add-on, there has been some big money made out of that - but there is a huge outlay as well, so it has become a very (very) niche market, with a rather large shark patrolling the waters, we haven't dipped our feet on that side of the shark net, though it is tempting :) 

Re mod:  excellent news :D  Shame for that hard worked code to be left out of future releases, haha :)  Fuel is always welcome in a wintery south :D 

Thanks for the replies, have a fab day :D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 09:45:39 AM
@Bartender   :)  will look forward to the forest then, thank you. Regarding compatibility, with The North mod, the old version had collectible firewood, I am assuming version 5 still has it.

Using thatch for fuel, to be realistic it would take a great deal of dry grass for fuel, it would burn very hot and fast but as another source of fuel in the game it would welcome. 

Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 09:45:39 AM
Using thatch for fuel, to be realistic it would take a great deal of dry grass for fuel, it would burn very hot and fast but as another source of fuel in the game it would welcome.

This is precisely the problem. It's not easy to find a realistic way to produce fuel from grass and reeds...
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on May 09, 2017, 11:50:46 AM
@Bartender - Pressure the grass (a lot of grass for one brick)
and you have a fuel equal to firewood.

About Forest Outpost and a NatDiv version. Yes.
I will start with thatch requirement for the houses.
Gatherer already collects from NatDiv.
It is not much change, but this version will require
your mod to be active or waiting for the trader.  ::)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on May 09, 2017, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 10:20:19 AMIt's not easy to find a realistic way to produce fuel from grass and reeds...

How about switchgrass, or panic grass? I read that in the 1800s, grasses were widely used as a heating fuel in the prairie regions or areas with little forested land. Farmers there relied on harvested straw and prairie grasses, or 'prairie coal', often twisted into bundles and burned in simple stoves.


Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on May 09, 2017, 08:56:15 PM
Yes, thinking of the green color of new grass bundles I also thought about drying and pressing. One more thing to consider is yield - if I noted right, one woodcutter and manual gathering (or one woodcutter and one forester) can provide sufficient (but not plentiful) amount of fuel for first 4-5 houses.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on May 09, 2017, 09:06:03 PM
To add, the tighter you bundle the grass, the slower it burns. Here we have processed fire logs that burn for a few hours (I never use them, they are more for decorative purposes IMO because you still need a lot of them to keep a fire going all night in a wood stove and they are quite expensive so I stick to good old dry wood) that are basically various organic plant material compressed into a block and doused with lighter fluid.

You know hay has been toted as an eco friendly building insulating material? If you bundle hay tightly it actually becomes a fire retardant, it is so densely packed that not enough oxygen can get in to feed the fire and it becomes pretty much fire proof. Also has good heat retaining properties when put in a wall. It is meant to be a good alternative to that nasty old asbestos and was used for such in times gone by. Perhaps a building material apart from thatch could be used from this?
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on May 09, 2017, 09:39:25 PM
from playing my last game i think of the thatch as bundles of cut dry grass. i didn't have a thatcher hut working and gathering thatch very long. going by what the bannies collected while clearing to build,there never was an over abundance of thatch. with the changes to the tree growth that this mod brings,my original wood chopper never got ahead on firewood. the bannies would burn some thatch especially the houses farther away from the chopper. now if the thatcher harvests a lot of thatch and we get overpowered with it,then i do think we will need a bundler for it. i agree burning just cut grass isn't as good as wood in amount of heat or lenght of burn time. i do find the way BT has it implemented is better than i thought originally though.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 09, 2017, 11:01:15 PM
Quote from: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 09:45:39 AM
Using thatch for fuel, to be realistic it would take a great deal of dry grass for fuel, it would burn very hot and fast but as another source of fuel in the game it would welcome.

This is precisely the problem. It's not easy to find a realistic way to produce fuel from grass and reeds...

Ah @despo_20 , but good sir, it's not uncommon :) 
https://www.ruf-briquetter.com/materials/wood-a-non-wood-biomass/straw-briquetting (https://www.ruf-briquetter.com/materials/wood-a-non-wood-biomass/straw-briquetting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_briquettes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_briquettes)
http://www.biomasscenter.org/resource-library/fact-sheets/grass-energy-basics (http://www.biomasscenter.org/resource-library/fact-sheets/grass-energy-basics)
http://www.woodbriquetteplant.com/news/briquetting-machine.html (http://www.woodbriquetteplant.com/news/briquetting-machine.html)

In fact, there's also the self-combustion of hay bales which have been recorded.  :)
Sawdust & rice, nut husks have also been used.  Maize (corn, which is a Vanilla product) has also been used.

There are many examples, and from what I read, even Nepal has used biomass briquettes for longer than recorded history.  (I wouldn't the accuracy, but let's say Wiki doesn't lie :D )

Quote from: kid1293 on May 09, 2017, 11:50:46 AM
@Bartender - Pressure the grass (a lot of grass for one brick)
and you have a fuel equal to firewood.

About Forest Outpost and a NatDiv version. Yes.
I will start with thatch requirement for the houses.
Gatherer already collects from NatDiv.
It is not much change, but this version will require
your mod to be active or waiting for the trader.  ::)

Sounds promising @kid1293 :)   woot!

Quote from: Paeng on May 09, 2017, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: despo_20 on May 09, 2017, 10:20:19 AMIt's not easy to find a realistic way to produce fuel from grass and reeds...

How about switchgrass, or panic grass? I read that in the 1800s, grasses were widely used as a heating fuel in the prairie regions or areas with little forested land. Farmers there relied on harvested straw and prairie grasses, or 'prairie coal', often twisted into bundles and burned in simple stoves.

I've had a little more poking about on this and learned more than I knew, I also learned some things I wish I didn't know about biomass fuel ...  oh, my lords, seriously went down a rabbit warren I wish I didn't with that one.  :D


Quote from: Necora on May 09, 2017, 09:06:03 PM
To add, the tighter you bundle the grass, the slower it burns. Here we have processed fire logs that burn for a few hours (I never use them, they are more for decorative purposes IMO because you still need a lot of them to keep a fire going all night in a wood stove and they are quite expensive so I stick to good old dry wood) that are basically various organic plant material compressed into a block and doused with lighter fluid.

You know hay has been toted as an eco friendly building insulating material? If you bundle hay tightly it actually becomes a fire retardant, it is so densely packed that not enough oxygen can get in to feed the fire and it becomes pretty much fire proof. Also has good heat retaining properties when put in a wall. It is meant to be a good alternative to that nasty old asbestos and was used for such in times gone by. Perhaps a building material apart from thatch could be used from this?


Where I live there are a lot of mudbrick houses, in fact there is an annual fundraiser for our local high school, the Mudbrick Tour, and they go through the processes involved and using hay & other dried items in the way that @Necora has noted. :)  I've seen how some bricks have been made. 
I was at a family friends place whilst they were adding an art studio and we asked what went into their homemade bricks, apparently everything that was in the 'pile', their house has a number of resident frogs, permanently inhabiting the building.  :D 
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 10, 2017, 01:06:02 AM
Thanks everyone for suggestions and research!

It's true that grass is used as fuel and also with good yields, but modern technologies are needed.
Modern stoves are needed to have a good performance. I think at grass pellets.
And to have good compression and drying, they need techniques that aren't compatible with a newly founded medieval or colonial village.

The problem is to create something that is useful in the early stages of the game. Just throwing straw into a fireplace isn't good.
Certainly we can create a "pressing and drying building" which refines grass bundles, reeds and also the thatches in excess into fuel bricks  ;)

I'll talk about this with my friend Bartender and we see what can be done  :)


Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 10, 2017, 02:34:28 AM
Welcome on WOB! You and Bartender are making great models and have interesting ideas. With fuel from grass I think you are right. It's hard to create something realistic. It's a rather modern technology of biogas or a very special ancient use in treeless regions. If people had wood then they used it for heating homes. Only if no wood was available they had to think about alternatives. In a Banished landscape full of forests they would use grass from a meadow to feet animals. To heat homes would be far too inefficient. But it's just talking about realism. In game you can create whatever you like and to make a realistic simulation is not the ultimate concept. :)
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 10, 2017, 04:15:11 AM
Thank you very much for all the suggestions everyone :)! We have a lot to think about ;).

I do tend to agree with what Despo and Tom Sawyer said; grasses as a biofuel would not have been common practice in the era and environment that banished is set in. Furthermore, even with modern technology, it's a rather inefficient method. Thus from a realism perspective, it's possible but maybe not the most obvious thing to do for our bannies.

From a gameplay perspective, I personally do believe that an alternative way of gathering fuel is necessary for this mod. The amount of trees on the map is reduced by the introduction of the grasses, so producing enough firewood especially early in the game may be a more difficult task. At the same time, introducing a new fuel should not make surviving the winter too easy either.

We will have some thought about this, and see if we can find an elegant solution that provides both realism and a balanced gameplay :).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
I would suggest, you look at the way @Tom Sawyer solved this in the North; the people find firewood in the woods. That's the way it worked in life anyway. I am sure no one cut a big tree just to get firewood. They used branches, small trees, dead wood.... Another, also realistic way, would be, if a forester cuts a tree, it gives 2 logs and 10 firewood (or something like that). I agree, unless you're in a desert or in the Arctic or some other area with no or very few trees, no other material is realistic.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 10, 2017, 04:40:22 AM
Thanks for the welcome @Tom Sawyer  :)

Quote from: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
I am sure no one cut a big tree just to get firewood. They used branches, small trees, dead wood...
I'm agree

Quote from: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
Another, also realistic way, would be, if a forester cuts a tree, it gives 2 logs and 10 firewood (or something like that).
I like very much this idea!
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on May 10, 2017, 04:42:22 AM
Quote from: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
I would suggest, you look at the way @Tom Sawyer solved this in the North; the people find firewood in the woods. That's the way it worked in life anyway. I am sure no one cut a big tree just to get firewood. They used branches, small trees, dead wood.... Another, also realistic way, would be, if a forester cuts a tree, it gives 2 logs and 10 firewood (or something like that). I agree, unless you're in a desert or in the Arctic or some other area with no or very few trees, no other material is realistic.

Just correcting, no it is not the way it worked in real life.

You'll never get enough wood to heat a home from just finding sticks, branches, dead wood etc. For one, it is poor fuel as it is small and not very dense, especially dead stuff. I use about 4 cords of wood just in winter to heat my very small home, and I have modern tech to help out. Colonial families would have used 30 to 40 cords of wood a year just to heat a home. This is about 1 acre of forest, so no, you won't heat your home just on foraged wood items, you need forestry to do it. Then there is the issue of dry wood, the firewood choppers in game I think we have to accept that they not only chop wood into firewood but also deal with drying the wood, it takes a good year to dry a batch of firewood to make it worth heating a home, wet wood is incredibly inefficient. Now, this isn't to say I disagree with the idea of getting firewood straight from the forest to help out a little especially if the forests are reduced due to the meadows, obviously you need your tinders and things, but getting firewood straight from the forest is not a realistic source of wood fuel to heat a home, you needed to chop trees and process the wood to do this.

Even going back to the Romans and Greeks, they had elaborate heating methods for homes and would definitely not have just foraged for fuel, you can only do this with good dry forested firewood.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on May 10, 2017, 05:16:42 AM
Regarding heating home with wood today.  We have a medium size home in cold northern US that has a solarium (sunroom) making it passive solar and we have a small woodburning stove, we have 1 acre of forest.  We have not ordered a cord of wood in years, using our own downed trees and big branches we cut and split ourselves.  Smaller branches which I call better-than-kindling pieces are stacked with a small pickup truck load of end cut scraps of hardwood from a nearby lumber yard, twigs go in kindling boxes stacked in the garage.  The other wood is stacked outside in one of three stacks and allowed to weather.  We use one to one and a half a cord a wood a year depending on the weather, very realistic.  We do have back up electric heating which we rarely use.  When power is out we have heat and a means of heating food and water and when the power isn't out there's hot apple cider or mulled wine and a long winters nap in front of the fire.   :)

Good activity and exercise for summer and fall.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 09:58:25 AM
I must correct your correcting @Necora. ;)

Of cause, different places, different way to make things, but we, too heat our house to a large part with wood. It's similar to @Abandoned; but we have very little trees ourself, so we buy most of the wood from our neighbors. It's never big trees, they are too valuable, to sell to saws and papermills. It's mostly thin trees, that are taken away, as the forest is thinned out or tips and thick branches; waste from logmaking. Of cause this is a countryside area with a lot of forests close.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on May 10, 2017, 11:22:41 AM
@Nilla can I now correct you correcting my correction? ;) Actually, I'm just clarifying. It was not the size of the tree I was contesting, more the ability to just go and collect it from the forest as if you are gathering sticks. Even thin trees are not things you would forage for you need to log the whole tree, or use left overs from logged trees, whether it is 10 inches in diameter or more, it is still not something you just go an pick up off the ground. If you split wood that is 6-12 inches thick, yes that is a thin tree, but it is also still a relatively tall tree that needs to be cut, not a shrub or fallen limb. Even if you do collect fallen limbs, they still need to be chopped and dried. My point is, to heat a home with wood, you don't simply collect it from the forest and chuck it into your stove. You need to harvest the trees, cut, chop, and dry the wood, and this counts no matter where in the world you are. This is why the chopper profession to produce firewood in game makes sense, rather than just collecting stuff. If that was the case, why don't we just burn wood straight away?

I don't know of a fuel that does not need some sort of refining to be used to heat a home. Be it reeds, wood, coal, they all need to be processed some way. Adding a resource that you can collect straight from the forest with no additional work is not realistic, and also makes the game easy. Now, like I said, I don't mind having the forest produce some firewood in small amounts, we still need kindling etc., and it is good if you have a condition where the trees are more sparse, but it is not something that should be able to fill your needs with out processing wood into firewood, or reeds in to fire bundles etc. In this case, I think it would be better to just increase the amount of wood produced per tree, which I think is rather under-powered in vanilla banished anyway.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on May 10, 2017, 11:41:37 AM
Maybe very small amount of dry twigs, then a building to process grass/reeds into some fuel brickets with a big decrease coefficient (so that a full meadow of grass with one thatcher and one drier give the same amount of fuel as one forester and one woodcutter, or even less) and small increase of tree yield :) All sounds good. Only this stuff requires great amount of testing.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 11, 2017, 03:38:48 PM
Thanks for the information everyone :). Though we risk getting into debates about geographical differences again, it's actually a great thing to receive feedback from all around the globe! Living in a country where having a fireplace is only associated with 'rustic romanticism', it's nice to read some firsthand accounts of how gathering firewood works in practice :).

As for the mod, we're currently testing some ideas, to see how they influence the availability of firewood. Our main goal will be to keep it as close to vanilla levels as possible. We'll share it once we've reached a conclusion ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: ancientmuse on May 11, 2017, 05:43:54 PM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but dried poop is also a common fuel that's used, particularly in the arctic regions beyond the treeline where wood is virtually non-existent.  It burns for a pretty long time and doesn't give off a horrid smell like you would think.

And it's a good way to make use of human and animal waste that naturally occurs on a daily basis anyways... 101 uses for "fertilizer".

Just thought I'd toss that little tidbit of useless trivia at you guys.

  :P
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on May 11, 2017, 08:25:22 PM
We already mentioned this idea :) The problem is that easy way to get fuel is most important at the beginning of game, when you don't have any animals. It only can be simulated as some building like cattle shed (if I understood right, that is the way RedKetchup has made it), consuming grass and producing dung brick fuel.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 12, 2017, 04:29:59 PM
Dung as a fuel is an interesting concept indeed ;). I am afraid though that it doesn't fit within the scope of this mod, at least not currently. We would first have to learn how to do animations for Banished before we can even think of starting on animals ;).

Perhaps some day we or someone else might pick up on the dung, and produce the shittiest mod ever :P.
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 12, 2017, 08:23:12 PM
Quote from: Bartender on May 12, 2017, 04:29:59 PM
Dung as a fuel is an interesting concept indeed ;) . I am afraid though that it doesn't fit within the scope of this mod, at least not currently. We would first have to learn how to do animations for Banished before we can even think of starting on animals ;) .

Perhaps some day we or someone else might pick up on the dung, and produce the shittiest mod ever :P .

Hahahaha, so happy that someone else said that too now :D  That has made my day !!! :D   Thanks @Bartender for the giggles :D

"produce the shittiest mod ever"
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 13, 2017, 03:48:43 AM
Ever since you suggested the name, I sincerely believe that it would be worth making a mod like that just for the endless stream of poo jokes ;).
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 13, 2017, 04:35:17 AM
I often put my dirty sense of humour on my teenage son.  "not me, he said it first"; sadly though, this was all me.  Haha.  :)
I now wonder what came first, my nonsense or his.  To be honest though @Bartender et al., I think we all know the answer to that one!! 
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on May 13, 2017, 04:47:33 AM
Seriously, you guys, an endless stream of poo jokes? What a bunch of crap!  LOL  :D ;D
Title: Re: Bartender's WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on May 13, 2017, 05:24:10 AM
Tehehe... reminds me of the days we did the Simpeg Agricultural Mod and announced it as SPAM...  :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: ancientmuse on May 14, 2017, 03:13:10 PM
Quote from: Bartender on May 12, 2017, 04:29:59 PM
Dung as a fuel is an interesting concept indeed ;). I am afraid though that it doesn't fit within the scope of this mod, at least not currently. We would first have to learn how to do animations for Banished before we can even think of starting on animals ;).

Perhaps some day we or someone else might pick up on the dung, and produce the shittiest mod ever :P.

Call me crazy but modelling a simple little wooden human outhouse where a Bannie can work at with a backhoe animation (like when they work a field) producing/gathering dung regularly would actually work pretty good.... with no need for animals at all.  Just some wood to build the outhouse originally at the start and then you're good to go.

People poop daily, so it's not an unrealistic job.

The "Poop Collector"

Has a nice ring to it, don't you think ?

:P
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on May 14, 2017, 04:21:00 PM
Quote from: ancientmuse on May 14, 2017, 03:13:10 PM
Quote from: Bartender on May 12, 2017, 04:29:59 PM
Dung as a fuel is an interesting concept indeed ;). I am afraid though that it doesn't fit within the scope of this mod, at least not currently. We would first have to learn how to do animations for Banished before we can even think of starting on animals ;).

Perhaps some day we or someone else might pick up on the dung, and produce the shittiest mod ever :P.

Call me crazy but modelling a simple little wooden human outhouse where a Bannie can work at with a backhoe animation (like when they work a field) producing/gathering dung regularly would actually work pretty good.... with no need for animals at all.  Just some wood to build the outhouse originally at the start and then you're good to go.

People poop daily, so it's not an unrealistic job.

The "Poop Collector"

Has a nice ring to it, don't you think ?

:P

Introducing the honey man with his honey wagon...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/outhouse-property-title-registration-government-land-ownership-1.4069536

Wandering down the honey lane.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: ancientmuse on May 14, 2017, 04:59:47 PM
@Necora

OMG that story is hilarious !!


See see ??

There was a worker who had to go around collecting the "honey" from the outhouses back in the day !

Nobody wants that perfume-y job, but hey somebody's gotta do it... amirite ?!

*bursts out in an evil cackle*
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: ancientmuse on May 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Welp... that cements it Necora.

You now have to build an outhouse for the "honey man" to work at to go with your maritimes mods.



Must. Keep. These. Mods. Authentic.

*snicker snicker*
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nivzamora on May 15, 2017, 11:45:50 PM
Hell speaking as an Alaskan? We still have someone who comes out to clean out the honeypot once a month ;) no Ancient times about it!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on May 16, 2017, 01:33:49 AM
Here in Sweden we have that as well. To our place he or she arrives with a large tank trunk, but on same places, they collect them more "hands on" in barrels. I guess it's about the same everywhere, if the population isn't dense enough for pipes.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 16, 2017, 02:13:50 PM
The more you know ;). I guess there are some benefits to living in a tiny country where everything is close enough to lay down some pipes ;D. Anyway..

It's tuesday already, so we're starting to run a bit behind schedule.. here's Sneak Peek #5!

This past week has been a week of a variety of things, and yet of nothing in particular. It was a week of bushes, boats, bridges, brainstorms about biofuels, and branches. There were other things, such as rocks, reeds and raw materials, but their names did not fit well into the last sentence. Other than arranging the words according to their first letter, we are afraid that there is not much of a theme to discover in this week's sneak peek. In absence of such a common denominator, we will resort to simply showing you whatever is close enough to completion to be shared.

The reed farm
My honourable colleague @despo_20 has spent most of this week working on the next part of the reeds and grasses chain; the as of yet unnamed reed farm. Due to limitations in the game code regarding the spawning of resources on the river banks, we spent a long time testing various possibilities for this building. In the end, we decided that the most realistic and historically accurate approach was to go for a boat on the small river, with a bridge connecting the two shores. The building functions similarly to a forester, planting and harvesting reeds in an influence area along the river banks. The associated profession will be a reaper, similarly to the reaper's shed that gathers grasses. The gathered reeds can be processed by the thatcher or be used for the construction of fish traps. They will also be compatible with the reeds introduced in CC.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/ReedFarm1.jpg.88fc38d17be7011b79963a05f7da17d8.jpg)
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/ReedFarm2.jpg.dfad6935af0d268b37dd2242737d1dc9.jpg)

Alternative Rocks
A few weeks ago I have shown some images of rocks in the rivers. This week, we have worked to create suitable meshes and textures for these water rocks. In the process, we have decided to kill two birds with one stone (or two flies in one slap as we say in Dutch), and start an overhaul of the rocks on land as well.

The state of diversity in the original rocks is rather appaling; there are only three meshes and they all have a bland, low-quality grey texture. To improve this, we have done several things; I have created (and am still creating) many different meshes, currently a total of 8, to allow for more diversity. Meanwhile, Despo has created several new rock textures with increasing amounts of moss/algal growth on them, for some colour variation. Lastly, a trick in the coding allows us to spawn each mesh at several different sizes, multiplying the number of variants we can create.

The result of this is that with just these 8 meshes, we have managed to create 12 unique variants for the water rocks (flat meshes with heavy algal growth textures only), and 36 unique variants for the land rocks (all meshes, with low and medium moss growth textures), a selection of which is shown in the second screenshot.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/Rocks2.png.218a03f352e066351093946246763660.png)
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/Rocks.thumb.png.f36e7d2b4e0bf0b386162f61eebce9b2.png)

That concludes this week's preview! We've been working on many other things in the past weeks, including the things we mentioned at the start of this post but didn't show. We are not quite ready to share those, but they will be shown in subsequent sneak peeks!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Necora on May 16, 2017, 02:52:09 PM
Wonderful stuff! I love the reed farm.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 16, 2017, 03:29:46 PM
The land rocks look really nice. I'm not so sure about the water ones though. Not enough of them, maybe? Or perhaps it's because they are all under the water? Can you make some buildable decorative rocks that stick out of the water? (and maybe some that sit under the water too  ;D ). That would be quite fantastic.

Have you considered making a gravel/rock stream in the smaller (shallower) creeks?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 16, 2017, 03:51:33 PM
With underwater rocks keep in mind that they cannot be removed by citizens and will block water buildings. I let them spawn very rare in the water, just to have some nice looking obstacles for a bit difficulty but it would be annoying with too many of them.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 16, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
@Tom Sawyer I remember your pic of the underwater rocks with Tany's water lilies. It looked really nice.

Ghost rocks wouldn't interfere with anything but probably can't spawn naturally.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 16, 2017, 04:22:04 PM
Yes, natural resources cannot be ghosted, as far as I know.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 17, 2017, 03:05:06 AM
@Tom Sawyer In fact they can, sort of ;). These rocks don't block construction on the water, and they don't even get removed if anything is constructed over them, as you can see in the picture.

(http://i.imgur.com/cj2D9Eu.jpg)

What I did is to add a pathBitmap to the template, like in ghosted resources:
MapDescription map
{
PathType _pathType = Normal;
bool _addOnCreate = true;

String _pathBitmap =
".";
}


Now this results in a resource without a footprint, though it has some limitations. If you spawn a resource like this on land, they will block construction. Villagers can't remove them because they are ghosted, so the construction can't be completed. However, when the resource is placed in the water, it doesn't block construction. I suspect that this is because the z-value is different, but that's just a guess.

@elemental We'll look at how to make the spawn behaviour work in such a way that it gives the most realistic result, personally I agree that it could be improved ;). There is somewhat of a limit to how dense we can make them though; filling all the rivers adds quite a number of resources to the map, which could result in performance issues on older systems if we overdo it. Adding some rocks that stick out of the water is part of the plan, as well as some waterplants in the right places.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 17, 2017, 03:43:06 AM
@Bartender My rocks did not block bridges too but trading posts and fishing docks. I have tried your snipped and it indeed produces ghosted natural resources. They cannot be removed but don't block buildings. Perfect solution for underwater rocks. Great find again! :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 17, 2017, 04:11:06 AM
We'll have to upgrade Barty to super wizard class coder.  8)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 17, 2017, 06:37:23 AM
Haha, so did I just level up ;D?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 17, 2017, 06:40:14 AM
Bartender is able to see the Matrix code  8)
Where we see rocks in the river, he sees a digital green rain  ;D


(https://i.stack.imgur.com/zymAc.gif)


Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on May 17, 2017, 06:58:19 AM
haha  ;D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 17, 2017, 09:16:29 AM
I hope Neo aka Bartender will level up completely one day to finally solve all our problems with this modkit and to speak to the architect. 8)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on May 17, 2017, 09:30:38 AM
 :)

Agree, he is transcending!
Maybe now we can beat the machine.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 17, 2017, 01:53:35 PM
Oh dear, it seems that with great power comes great responsibility. I'm not afraid of taking the red pill though ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 17, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
hahaha  ;D

Bartender, please save us!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 17, 2017, 03:04:45 PM
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/ghosted.jpg)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 17, 2017, 03:17:12 PM
I wish this place had like buttons.  ;D

And remember... there is no spoon.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on May 18, 2017, 01:57:58 AM
Quote from: elemental on May 17, 2017, 03:17:12 PM
I wish this place had like buttons.  ;D

And remember... there is no spoon.

Hmm...What do werewolves have to do with all this?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 19, 2017, 08:05:48 AM
haha, that's great @Tom Sawyer ;D!

I hope Mr. Luke reads this, then he knows I'm coming.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 19, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
I can already see the scene. But keep in mind that speaking to the architect can be quite difficult...  ;D

(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/architect.jpg)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on May 20, 2017, 02:54:39 PM
hahahah

The detail on the door is a finesse!  ;D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on May 20, 2017, 04:00:46 PM
I didn't even notice that. Thanks for pointing it out.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on May 20, 2017, 04:05:05 PM
And the reflection in the floor :)  @Tom Sawyer you really are a man of great talent ;)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 21, 2017, 04:15:15 AM
(http://www.banishedventures.com/images/playing.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on May 21, 2017, 09:22:38 AM
Tehehe... Banished on a 15" CRT... that's rich   :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tiero001 on May 26, 2017, 04:38:56 AM
can u give alternative download link other than drop box??

im having problms with the site  :(
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on May 26, 2017, 04:48:02 AM
Quote from: tiero001 on May 26, 2017, 04:38:56 AM
can u give alternative download link other than drop box??

im having problms with the site  :(
Welcome Tiero :). The alternative download link in the description is a google drive link (this one: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-ZePVZCUPiuamo5S2JnSHpyamM (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-ZePVZCUPiuamo5S2JnSHpyamM)), does that work?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 01, 2017, 08:51:46 AM
 It has been well over a week since our last update, so Sneak Peek #6 is long overdue!

The crowd: "You're late!"

Me: "A coding wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to."

Due to real life activities I am personally a bit short on time at the moment, but for the past two weeks @despo_20 and I have been working hard on several parts of the mod. We will present these to you, and we have an announcement to make, so bear with us!

The completion of the basic Grasses & Reeds Production Chain

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/1.jpg.63d273fbee059953a3b5415d76b7f023.jpg)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/2.jpg.3d4178b2d084c9019871967c0351fc83.jpg)
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/3.jpg.e28ca600fdc791b19e6e9a976b2b77e1.jpg)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/4.jpg.f9ff0a5f0e490f4fc838b685788f8b7c.jpg)

The last new building of our production chain, the fish trap, has been completed. It can be constructed on small streams, and requires wood and reed to be built. It is meant as a cheap fishing option that doesn't require thatch. It also has a durability tied to the amount of fish caught, after which the trap breaks and needs to be rebuilt.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/1.jpg.f2e72ab81ea71785c90ae4701fd75025.jpg)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/2.jpg.2bbd310e4360257a90d3134f8de49222.jpg)
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/3.jpg.5d3cf86bac4b924dccfb1916b6d77378.jpg)

As @despo_20  has designed so many wonderful new buildings for this chain, we felt that my old model for the Thatcher didn't quite fit in anymore. Therefore, it has received a completely new design, in the same style as the Reaper's Shed that we've shown before. This updated version will utilize grass bales or reed bundles to produce thatch.

And with that, our basic chain is completed! We already have quite a few plans for expansion, but this is what we'll be releasing first. Here's a complete flowchart of the chain:

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/5930353c26a54_NatDivchains.thumb.jpg.14b5ab63c026f72af02a2a3f9482400b.jpg)

Rebellious Crops

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/RebelliousCrops.thumb.png.f5e73a72750cc0c16ee9fb05c65fc2ae.png)

Based on an excellent suggestion by @QueryEverything, we have decided to revive an outdated mod made by OwlChemist, who is unfortunately no longer active as a modder for Banished. His 'Pesky Produce' mod made crops and orchard trees have a slight chance of seeding outside of their fields. This is highly realistic behaviour (plants tend not to care about artificial boundaries), and therefore fits perfectly with our goal of Natural Diversity. The crops growing outside of the fields can be harvested with a new 'clear foods' and the regular 'clear trees' toolbar buttons.

Version 1.1 release

With our basic production chain finished, we have decided to start moving towards the release of NatDiv version 1.1! Everything we've shown so far will be included in the new version, along with some other tiny things we didn't show yet. A full list of all the new and updated features will follow. The coming week(s) we will focus on polishing and testing, after which we will release an open Beta to let you have a taste and for us to gather your highly valuable feedback!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on June 01, 2017, 09:04:41 AM
And bushes... ?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 01, 2017, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: kid1293 on June 01, 2017, 09:04:41 AM
And bushes... ?
Bushes? Where did we put the bushes?  ???

;D

They're under development  ;)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on June 01, 2017, 10:14:02 AM
i like how you give us a taste now and then of progress. the charts are super informative. it will be nice to have reeds back. i think mine are dead at the moment. there are oddities to my maps that appear to be caused by the NAT DIV mod.i have to test more maps before i list them. i need more evidence.lol.   is the pesky produce optional? did you see NECORA'S latest developments? he is fixing it so all gatherers can collect the various items.
can the names of the coding files, like the resource file,be named so they can work with adam and eve start settings and not just vanilla?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on June 01, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
I wrote over on the BL thread (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/topic/1134-natural-diversity/&do=findComment&comment=7686) as well, but thought it only fitting to also post my thanks here as well.  :)

Thank you !! 
Excellent news @Bartender & @despo_20  :D  The buildings look excellent, the concept is wonderful (yes, more uses for the reeds!), and I'm thoroughly happy that you picked up Pesky, and created your own "Rebellious Crops"  Love the name!  Those little suckers were definitely rebellious ;)

I look forward to seeing the mod in the Download section ... 

Coming to a File near you ... hahaha ;)

Oh, and the modders here are all Wizards :D

Hahaha, bushes, @kid1293 I'm so glad someone else remembered to ask :D ;)



I know I have said this before, but thank you to you both for making the mod in such a way that it works as a stand-alone, but also as a companion mod to other mods, a larger piece of the puzzle.  It does take a group effort to do so (sharing resource info etc), and can sometimes misdirect your own needs (even if only for a moment), so it's fantastic to see when the co-development does work out, thank you very much :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Discrepancy on June 01, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
Wow! I love the look of that fish trap, great model. Inspiring  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on June 01, 2017, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: Discrepancy on June 01, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
Wow! I love the look of that fish trap, great model. Inspiring  :)

Agreed. The small creeks are somewhat underutilised in the game. This will help bring them to life.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 02, 2017, 03:57:58 AM
Thank you all!  :)

Quote from: elemental on June 01, 2017, 07:48:47 PM
Agreed. The small creeks are somewhat underutilised in the game. This will help bring them to life.
Valorising the small creeks is one of our goals. Fish trap and Reed farm can only be built on small creeks  ;)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 02, 2017, 09:09:00 AM
Thank you for the kind replies everyone :)! It's always great to see the buzz that our updates generate :).

Quote from: kid1293 on June 01, 2017, 09:04:41 AM
And bushes... ?

Uuuhm.. yes.. bushes. :o

*searches frantically through his files*

Yes I have those here somewhere.. They are just uuuhm... :-[

*searching intensifies*

Ahh yes.. They are uuhm... still in production. We most certainly did not forget to include them in the post or anything like that :-X.

There will be news on the bushes soon ;).

Quote from: brads3 on June 01, 2017, 10:14:02 AM
i like how you give us a taste now and then of progress. the charts are super informative. it will be nice to have reeds back. i think mine are dead at the moment. there are oddities to my maps that appear to be caused by the NAT DIV mod.i have to test more maps before i list them. i need more evidence.lol.   is the pesky produce optional? did you see NECORA'S latest developments? he is fixing it so all gatherers can collect the various items.
can the names of the coding files, like the resource file,be named so they can work with adam and eve start settings and not just vanilla?
If you're using NatDiv then wild resources introduced by CC for example won't be growing on the map indeed, at least not for the vanilla starting conditions. Similarly, the NatDiv resources won't be growing naturally on the CC starting conditions. We have plans for some changes to the starying conditions, but those probably won't be included in this update.

The pesky produce is intended to be a core feature of the mod, so not optional. Personally I see it as a realism improvement that doesn't actually change the gameplay that much, but if there is high aversion towards it we could always concider alternative ways of releasing this.

Quote from: QueryEverything on June 01, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
I know I have said this before, but thank you to you both for making the mod in such a way that it works as a stand-alone, but also as a companion mod to other mods, a larger piece of the puzzle.  It does take a group effort to do so (sharing resource info etc), and can sometimes misdirect your own needs (even if only for a moment), so it's fantastic to see when the co-development does work out, thank you very much :D
This is what I love about this community! The overal willingness to co-operate, to share knowledge and to encourage each other make it a rare thing to find :).

Quote from: elemental on June 01, 2017, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: Discrepancy on June 01, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
Wow! I love the look of that fish trap, great model. Inspiring  :)

Agreed. The small creeks are somewhat underutilised in the game. This will help bring them to life.

I got rather excited when @despo_20 proposed this idea, and he made it look even greater than I hoped it would be ;D. We indeed felt that it was a shame that the vanilla game has no function for the small streams, other than to limit pathing and construction. We hope that changing this creates more meaningful options and more optimal land use ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: DesoPL on June 02, 2017, 09:56:25 AM
This mod could work with CC or not? Looks promising.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on June 02, 2017, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: Bartender on June 02, 2017, 09:09:00 AM

The pesky produce is intended to be a core feature of the mod, so not optional. Personally I see it as a realism improvement that doesn't actually change the gameplay that much, but if there is high aversion towards it we could always concider alternative ways of releasing this.

Will the plants "jump" over fences?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on June 02, 2017, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: DesoPL on June 02, 2017, 09:56:25 AM
This mod could work with CC or not? Looks promising.
I have it playing with CC @DesoPL but, it doesn't work with custom starts, only the Vanilla stars (Easy, Medium, Valleys etc etc), it works fine with the food chains etc. 


Quote from: Gatherer on June 02, 2017, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: Bartender on June 02, 2017, 09:09:00 AM

The pesky produce is intended to be a core feature of the mod, so not optional. Personally I see it as a realism improvement that doesn't actually change the gameplay that much, but if there is high aversion towards it we could always concider alternative ways of releasing this.

Will the plants "jump" over fences?
In essence, if @Bartender is going by the original idea, then yes, essentially.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1733.0  -- is the topic I started requesting PP get a new life, and explains the original mod a bit more. :)

I was using Pesky Produce until Banished 10.7 was released, when it bugged out, and it would randomly spawn whatever was in the fields, out in the wild, so wheat in the field, would spawn random wheat tufts in random places on the map.  It would only spawn what was available to you, what you had unlocked & planted, not things still locked.
It also did it from the orchards as well.

The idea is that naturally food, (orchards & fields) can't be contained completely, so in the wild you would find random trees etc because a bird or a wind gust, nature, would pick up a seed etc and then drop it.
When I was little I remember mum always battling the pumpkins, hahaha, oh & her tomato plants.
The cat would get into the tomatoes, get caught and drop the tomato she was eating seeds & all, on her way back to the house, and over time and years, mum would find odd food & vines growing in the backyard (we eventually realised it was the cat, lol).  So, this sort of mod & add-in makes perfect sense :D

Ya know, I do have to get a photo of the Blackberry bush, must get Jnr to go and take a photo next time he lets the sheep in the field.  :D Just so Bartender has some more bush inspiration ;)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 03, 2017, 07:14:07 AM
I was going to reply to the questions here, but @QueryEverything already answered them perfectly :).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 03, 2017, 07:44:19 AM
@Bartender great looking addition to the game this will be.   :)  I just hope my real life garden will reseed like that, so much rain can't even get it planted and it's June already.  Been growing fruits and vegetables for 40 some years.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Fellow Villager on June 03, 2017, 11:17:20 AM
Well, it's a grear additon.
Do You Think To use it with something similar To domesticaTed animali?
Speaking about Grass Bale as food
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 04, 2017, 09:42:17 AM
We currently don't have any plans to include domesticated animals, but we might at some point make a link to some that exist in other mods if we can find an elegant way of doing so.

Meanwhile, it's time for Sneak Peek 6b:

As promised, here's an update on the berry bushes, as well as the reveal of a new wild resource as a little extra ;). A while ago, we showed the first new berry bush variant, which was the Northern Highbush Blueberry. The second variant that will be added is a slightly smaller species, the Black Huckleberry.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Bushes.png.79dd398a27bafb59630897257a4f2fab.png)

To refresh the memory, or to create a new one if you haven't read the earlier post; these bushes drop berries on the ground, which can be harvested by the vanilla gatherer. The bushes themselves can be harvested for a small amount of firewood when in dire need.

Falling leaves

We concider the work on these bushes as somewhat of a test, before we start on their larger cousins in an overhaul of the trees. As part of this, I've played around with a longstanding wish of mine regarding the seasonal behaviour. In the vanilla situation, when the deciduous trees lose their leaves, these simply disappear. As you may observe in the video below, the leaves that fall from these bushes will stay on the ground at their base, and get snowed over as winter comes. They then disappear again when spring arrives and the bushes make new leaves.

https://webmshare.com/play/AdYxQ (https://webmshare.com/play/AdYxQ)

Falling branches

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Branches02.png.812efc7b3b75e2ab7e934219e038cb5e.png)

Another addition that we did in preparation for when we head into the forest, are these branches that will occasionally spawn below the trees. The can be gathered manually for a small amount of firewood too, but will not have a specific gatherer associated with them. Our aim is to have these, together with the bushes, compensate for the smaller amount of trees on the map with our mod. At the same time, we do not want to make it too easy to build a supply of fuel, so these will not spawn very frequently. The balance we want to create is one where it's simply not worth it to have a worker permanently roaming the forests in search of firewood, but where sending some out to harvest in a time of need can just make the difference between surviving the winter cold or finding a frosty grave.

(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/BranchesBig.png.5b66228825ea524c3e69abe78df7aef1.png)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on June 04, 2017, 11:12:53 AM
How much more food units will be gathered from a single spawn location to compensate for continuously adding more and more different resources?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Discrepancy on June 05, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
Quote from: Bartender on June 04, 2017, 09:42:17 AM
... I've played around with a longstanding wish of mine regarding the seasonal behaviour. In the vanilla situation, when the deciduous trees lose their leaves, these simply disappear. As you may observe in the video below, the leaves that fall from these bushes will stay on the ground at their base, and get snowed over as winter comes. They then disappear again when spring arrives and the bushes make new leaves.

https://webmshare.com/play/AdYxQ (https://webmshare.com/play/AdYxQ)

This is great! love it :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 05, 2017, 05:53:08 AM
Oh my gosh, those berry bushes with falling leaves, and love the fallen branches, small amount of firewood to gather, perfect, love it   :) 

If you are considering another wild berry there is the elderberry in US & Canada, Europe too, used for pie, jelly, and elderberry wine. The pretty lacey white flower is edible and considered medicinal and can be dipped in batter and served with syrup.  I saw some blooming along the road side just the other day.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 05, 2017, 09:12:13 AM
Quote from: Gatherer on June 04, 2017, 11:12:53 AM
How much more food units will be gathered from a single spawn location to compensate for continuously adding more and more different resources?
We are testing the mod to find the correct balance of natural resources  ;)

Quote from: Discrepancy on June 05, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
This is great! love it :)
It's very great indeed! The magician made another magic!

Quote from: Abandoned on June 05, 2017, 05:53:08 AM
If you are considering another wild berry there is the elderberry in US & Canada, Europe too, used for pie, jelly, and elderberry wine. The pretty lacey white flower is edible and considered medicinal and can be dipped in batter and served with syrup.  I saw some blooming along the road side just the other day.  :)
Also in Italy we make elderberry flowers liquor. I love it!  ;D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 05, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
@despo_20 I don't think I have greeted you yet on this forum, HI  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 05, 2017, 02:34:29 PM
Thanks for the kind words :)!

Quote from: Gatherer on June 04, 2017, 11:12:53 AM
How much more food units will be gathered from a single spawn location to compensate for continuously adding more and more different resources?
It's actually very difficult to figure out how spawnrates of different resources affect each other, but from what I've seen so far there's no need to worry that there will be shortages of any kind in this mod ;). Nevertheless, as despo mentioned, we will test everything to make sure that all production rates stay within a healthy ballance.

Quote from: Abandoned on June 05, 2017, 05:53:08 AM
If you are considering another wild berry there is the elderberry in US & Canada, Europe too, used for pie, jelly, and elderberry wine. The pretty lacey white flower is edible and considered medicinal and can be dipped in batter and served with syrup.  I saw some blooming along the road side just the other day.  :)

I love the syrup that is made from elderflower blossom :)! I'm trying to stick to bushes that produce blue/black berries for now, as otherwise I would have to solve some problems with the different coloured berries. This one might fit in just fine ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 06, 2017, 03:47:08 AM
Hi @Abandoned !

You're right. It's my fault that I never introduced myself here  :(
I started modding and talking on BL and then I started writing here as if it were the same forum  ::)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 06, 2017, 04:28:33 AM
@despo_20 , oh not your fault at all, I missed the intro thread myself when I came on this site.  Wanted to say I like your buildings, I am behind in download mods, especially 107 versions because I haven't updated my game yet. I've used Natural Diversity light and like it a lot and look forward to the complete mod with those new buildings.  Great job.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 06, 2017, 06:37:15 AM
Thanks @Abandoned! We do our best  ;)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on June 13, 2017, 06:14:25 AM
Maybe you already know Mr Gandalf, ;) the combination NatDiv and @RedKetchup´s fodder farm from Garden Walls Utilities work odd together. I wrote a bit about it in my blog. http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1780.msg35735#msg35735
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 13, 2017, 06:45:26 AM
I see in your screenshots that you are using the 1.0 Beta version @Nilla , that one indeed has a problem with Red's Garden Walls Mod. In the most recent version this has been fixed ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Nilla on June 13, 2017, 07:05:34 AM
Oh, I´m pretty shure I downloaded everything new a few days ago as I started this game, obviously I missed this one. Anyhow, I´m glad you knew it and have fixed it. It´s a nice add to the game. :) (But somehow it´s a little bit of pity, I somehow love all those big flowers, I think I will keep the old version in my files, just in case I feel a little less "real nature")  :-\ ;)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 13, 2017, 12:35:14 PM
Glad it's resolved :). To be honest, I do like the grass fields Red's fodder farm creates very much, perhaps even more than my own attempt.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 17, 2017, 01:22:00 PM
There has been no big sneak peek for a while now, and there probably won't be for a little while longer. Instead, here's a small update of how things are going. Both Despo and I have been rather busy in our personal lives, so the development is a bit slower than before. We're still very much active though, and are slowly but steadily moving towards our first joint release :). Most features have been thoroughly tested by now, so once we've crossed the last few things of our list, we're ready to upload a beta version ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on June 17, 2017, 01:25:52 PM
are you making a storage barn for the thatch?it would be very helpful.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on June 17, 2017, 05:17:51 PM
many people would love to see a feature to pickup Fodder and transform to Thatch.... have an idea how we can do that ?

or you do it , or i do it.... if it is me ... i would love to get your tatched farm mesh to make something crossed over between our 2 farms like a mesh mixing both mesh look.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 18, 2017, 08:05:34 AM
@brads3 This is definitely on our list, though not for the current update. I expect it to be in the next one though ;).

@RedKetchup I think it would definitely be cool if the fodder and thatch chain could be linked! We've been thinking about it, but couldn't really find an adequate solution yet. From the perspective of our new chain, it would make most sense to make it possible to turn grass bales into fodder I think. About the building mesh, that's @despo_20 's territory ;). If you have some idea's for a link and want to give it a go, you're more than welcome :). We can supply you with the files of the new chain for that
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 19, 2017, 05:45:31 AM
Hello everyone!

As Bartender said, I'm very busy of work at this time and I'm sorry if I'm slowing down the release  :(

@RedKetchup I can give you the meshes, no problem!  ;)  We just have to understand how to link the two chains. I agree with @Bartender, turn grass bales into fodder may be the best solution
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 27, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
Natural Diversity 1.1 Beta release (for Banished 1.0.7)

After months of work, several weeks of testing, some more days of adjusting things, and a few hours of wondering how we should start this sentence, our work has finally come to an end! @despo_20 and @Bartender proudly present the Natural Diversity update 1.1 Beta. As it is a beta version, bugs will be likely to occur. If you encounter any, please kindly let us know in this thread or through a PM to either of us, preferably including screenshots. Sightings of real life bugs are unfortunately not of any relevance, and we would not appreciate receiving pictures of those.

The file can be downloaded here. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ZePVZCUPiuQ0RHc09VVktyc1k)

Below is a summary of the content of this update. A detailed explanation of each feature will be provided upon full release.

Thatch Production Chain
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/595269a88ab86_NatDivchains.thumb.jpg.44477891fe4ee8887323d09e55ec0359.jpg)

The production of thatch is now a two step production chain, introducing four new materials and five completely new buildings. The old thatcher building has been removed from the mod. The reed farm and fish trap can be placed on small rivers, introducing a new utility for these.


Natural Resources
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Reeds2.thumb.png.dde8b77ba6f5d3e95eac50a3125136fd.png)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Bushes.png.e80e19452ba685286f6d27071ce27adf.png)
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/BranchesBig.png.168a70047727a9628a5add444168285d.png)(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Rocks.thumb.png.df83f243e1b0ad92ccd8d8ed3ff08826.png)

Two new resources are added into the game, Reeds and Branches. Reeds spawn on the waters edge and give reed bundles (CC compatible), while branches occasionally fall from trees and give firewood. The Blueberries recieved an overhaul, now occurring as bushes that drop harvestable berries in summer. The bushes themselves give firewood when cut. Lastly, the rocks received new meshes and new textures, greatly increasing their diversity.


Rebellious Crops
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/RebelliousCrops.thumb.png.88e0e3a177d38e68987c6ebccd643824.png)

All vanilla crops and orchard trees have a small chance of spawning seedlings outside their fields. This functionality was requested by @QueryEverything and is based on the currently obsolete Pesky Produce mod by OwlChemist.


Aesthetics
(http://blackliquidsoftware.com/uploads/monthly_2017_06/Rocks2.thumb.png.79694a7f60fca84b501271a7d9f1048f.png)

Rocks have been added to the rivers, to give them a more natural look. These rocks are purely cosmetic; the cannot be harvested, nor will they block construction over the water.


Harvest wild foods & herbs Toolbar Buttons
Along with new toolbar buttons for the introduced buildings and resources, toolbar buttons have been added for the collection of wild foods and herbs.


Start Conditions
The vanilla start conditions have recieved a [NatDiv] prefix, to signify that these include the resources introduced in this mod. Furthermore, the easy condition has 100 Thatch added to the stockpile on start.


Updates to existing content
All natural resources included in version 1.0 have received a visual update. Parts of the models will sway in the wind, and the winter behaviour has been changed to provide a more accurate winter landscape.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on June 27, 2017, 08:09:25 AM
Awesome.

Great idea to give the small streams some useful meaning with the fish traps.

Thanks for the great work and congrats on the 1.1 Beta release :)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 27, 2017, 10:14:25 AM
very impressive indeed, eager to update my game and try this mod.   :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on June 27, 2017, 12:31:32 PM
ABANDONED, i wouold like to hear your tests for this and the pine mod.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on June 27, 2017, 08:22:55 PM
Congratulations !

i love so much the bundles/thatch graphics (and their buildings)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 28, 2017, 05:26:12 AM
@brads3 , I will blog a town with this mod for sure, it looks wonderful. I used the light version and really like it.  I will do the pine set separately another time.  I am eager to try Red's Garden Wall Utilities too.  First I must update my game and I want to separate the North and CC.  When I get to CC I'll have a few questions for you.  :)  I don't know if I will have much time today, going grocery shopping and the forecast is for more storms today and rest of the week so computer time may be limited.  Are you starting a new blog with this mod?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on June 28, 2017, 05:35:14 AM
i have to be away today also.i will load this after i get these tests of the pine mods done.the pine is a big mod so i have a few buildings to check yet.and i should check it with the flora patch.i am finding some issues. why i want a 2nd opinion before NECORA gets back.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 28, 2017, 05:47:01 AM
@brads3 I will certainly try pine set and others of Necora before he gets back.  I only Maritime Dock Set & PEI shores when they were first released. 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 28, 2017, 05:48:20 AM
Your new version looks nice. I repeat myself but you are combining interesting ideas and great design. Seems you are a good team. Thumbs up.

How do these escaping crops and trees behave? Can they be cut or gathered?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on June 28, 2017, 12:53:11 PM
Thank you for the kind words everyone :)! We've already received a few bug reports over at BL, if you encounter anything please let us know ;).

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on June 28, 2017, 05:48:20 AM
How do these escaping crops and trees behave? Can they be cut or gathered?

They can, the crops can be gathered with a new 'harvest wild food' toolbar button, while the trees can be cut with the regular 'cut trees' button.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: despo_20 on June 29, 2017, 07:00:27 AM
Thank you guys! We await your advices to improve the mod  ;)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on June 29, 2017, 02:13:52 PM
First impression, I'm impressed  :)  I just started a small test map since I am still updated but wanted a quick look-see.  The map looks very nice and lots of collectables.  I like the icons and locations on the toolbar, well done.  I didn't see the firewood branches anywhere but I didn't play very long.  I would have liked to have seen that first thatcher's hut shown on page one of this thread in the mod, or maybe a separate alternative.  It matches vanilla starting buildings so well and really looks like it uses the thatch required to build it.  Maybe a f-key roof variant on reaper, thresher, & thatcher.   Like the wild cereal, berry bushes, and rocks in the water.  As you can tell, I did more sightseeing than playing.  :)  Liked what I saw. 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on June 30, 2017, 03:14:57 AM
@ Bartender . :) The work is done super, everything I like, berry bushes are fantastic, you can see them very clearly.  I have a lot of berries, when it comes to the branches   also do not see them. I have suggestions + wild strawberries, are similar to small strawberries, grow in the forest and in the garden, the bushes would be blue - berries and red -  wild strawberries - what you on it? :D I am sending Screenshots
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 01, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
Thank you, I'm glad you are enjoying it :)! If the branches are not showing up that might be because there's some other mod loaded above NatDiv that also changes the spawning of resources from the trees. They're not very conspicuous though, so maybe they're just hidden between the trees ;).

@Abandoned We decided to change the thatcher because we wanted to have all the buildings of the mod in the same style, and we felt that it didn't quite fit in anymore. Unfortunately this indeed means that they're fitting in slightly less with the vanilla buildings, though I still think that @despo_20 managed to stay true to the feeling of the game :). I've made the promise that I would also make a decoration version of all the plants in the mod once it's completed, perhaps we could include some building alternatives in there as well.

@taniu Thank you for the pictures again :), I'd still like to add more berry types at some point, but they take a bit more time to make than most plants so I didn't get round to that yet ;). Wild strawberries would definitely be a nice addition!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 01, 2017, 04:02:42 PM
despo's building are very nice looking indeed, I just really would have liked that first little vanilla matching thatcher for town starting.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on July 01, 2017, 10:27:11 PM

Just my two cents -


The first version where bannies could go out and reap the thatch directly
to build a home made sense. A quick way to get material for building.


Now another building has to be made before they can build shelter.
I realize it has to be done that way if you want to sort out the
wild food, which you don't get with the thatch-only option.

The food is a very positive update.
And there is reed - also used to make thatch.


All in all, it is a very realistic and solid concept, well thought,
just a bit clumsy at the start of a game.

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 02, 2017, 01:33:02 AM
bah it need to be cheap, fast build, and allow maybe 1 citizen which work quick.
it need not to be a burden when you start a new game.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on July 02, 2017, 02:46:16 AM
@ Despo 20 :) The work is done super .The buildings are fantastic I really like them :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 02, 2017, 02:55:14 AM
Thanks for the feedback again :). We are very much aware that the inclusion of the thatch production chain has a big impact on the game, specifically in the early stages. Aside from realism, this impact is part of the reason why we chose to make this change; we feel that it adds another depth layer to the game. This ofcourse does increase the difficulty of the game slightly, which is the reason why we decided to add an already available stock of thatch to the easy start conditions. At the same time, buildings a Thatcher and having some labourers harvest some grasses is already enough to get your initial production going, so in that sense the increase in difficulty between the last version and this one is not that big either.

That said, we completely understand that not everyone might like these changes. My personal philosophy is that meaningful gameplay needs to have a healthy balance between giving opportunities and giving restrictions. This is what I like in games, and other people may ofcourse have different ideas about this. Unfortunately we all have to make choices in what we try to achieve with our mods, and thus accept the fact that we cannot please everyone all the time ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on July 02, 2017, 04:16:10 AM
@Bartender @ despo 20 Thank you for the positive consideration of my idea + wild strawberries
I made a small test for 2 sets -" Rreeds and Fish trap" -these sets can freely introduce small rivers, but I wanted these sets to be placed in the river and here are my conclusions;
1. Once the area has been narrowed, the "Fish trap " and the "Reaper's Boat" can be placed on the river, but the "Reaper's Boat" is better placed on the shore.
2. "Fish trap" is not fit to the shore - and people walk on the water, is it a little funny?


Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on July 02, 2017, 04:34:12 AM
@Bartender @ despo 20  :)
I have a village called "Oelrichmond" there is a lot of rivers and a lake, small river is very far from the village
I have a question if the "Fish Trap" can be adjusted to the river? Please. :)
There is also a slot on the small river that lacks a piece at the shore - when people pass through the small river they lose direction, they do not return immediately, they just walk around the area before you return back to the small river.
At "Fish Trap" 2 .jpg I added the missing piece - the lands, but add a piece of wooden ?- would look better "Fish Trap" ? :)
Some screenshots :
Thank you for your attention  :)Yours Cheers !
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 02, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
I think the solution to make a chain for Thatch is a good one and realistic as well.

To add thatch in the startup stock of resources on easy of the game is simple but very effective idea, Vanilla does the same with iron, Logs and Stone so players can build stuff what require those materials from the start to get the game going. With the thatch stock on easy players can build the building(s) what produces thatch pretty fast to get the process going.
And other starts besides easy are there for the reason to be more challenging.

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 03, 2017, 03:10:32 AM
Hello! This new version is so great, that it got me back to game, even through I'm on notebook now, so it gets hot and game looks bad.

First when I put this version in my old mod list (there were NF, DS mods, RowHouses + NatDiv, latest ForestOutpost, MaritimesTrees, some EB mods and some other small mods), it caused crashes at about half a minute from the start of game. I left only old version of RowHouses, NF and some small mods and now it works.

If NF is put above NatDiv, there is no branches. It makes game really hard. I think, I should update NF again. Also I think that wild oats can be removed now from NF version compatible with NatDiv. And it would be good if grass spawn flax and maybe wild roses, but I'm not sure, how to do that. Maybe you just would be so kind to build a version of NatDiv with flax, roses and bees included, because it would be more simple, it let to avoid doulble  gathering tools and because I hadn't made mods for a long time now... At least until you hadn't made some more beautiful flower bushes, than mine ;)

I've noticed that blueberries spawn rather far from berry bushes.

And I hadn't yet tested reeds and fish traps. I want to say that grass and reeds are too beautiful to cut them off :)

Thank you!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 03, 2017, 11:48:13 PM
"I've noticed that blueberries spawn rather far from berry bushes." - Now when I removed NF, I understand, that this fact was caused with it. I suppose you have put blueberries spawn into berry bushes template and removed it from trees template, but NF put it back there. That is easy to solve.

Also with all that branches playing is much easier. And, to be honest, with modded buildidns that don't require thatch - thatch is produced very slowly.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 04, 2017, 01:41:57 AM
Thanks again for all the feedback :)!

Quote from: taniu on July 02, 2017, 04:16:10 AM
@Bartender @ despo 20 Thank you for the positive consideration of my idea + wild strawberries
I made a small test for 2 sets -" Rreeds and Fish trap" -these sets can freely introduce small rivers, but I wanted these sets to be placed in the river and here are my conclusions;
1. Once the area has been narrowed, the "Fish trap " and the "Reaper's Boat" can be placed on the river, but the "Reaper's Boat" is better placed on the shore.
2. "Fish trap" is not fit to the shore - and people walk on the water, is it a little funny?

Quote from: taniu on July 02, 2017, 04:34:12 AM
@Bartender @ despo 20  :)
I have a village called "Oelrichmond" there is a lot of rivers and a lake, small river is very far from the village
I have a question if the "Fish Trap" can be adjusted to the river? Please. :)
There is also a slot on the small river that lacks a piece at the shore - when people pass through the small river they lose direction, they do not return immediately, they just walk around the area before you return back to the small river.

It's true that the Fish Trap and Reaper's Boat were not really made for the big rivers. For the Reaper's Boat this led to complications with growing the reeds (the influence area got too big), so we decided to limit it to the small rivers. For the Fish Trap, we've decided not to make it for the big rivers because those are being used by the trade boats. It would look very weird to have a boat sail right through the fish trap ;).

It's also true that the villagers can walk through the water along the downstream side of the fishtrap. This was the only way in which we could make sure that the workers can reach the trap itself from both sides of the river. Basically the villagers can wade through the water because they have the wood of the trap to hold on to ;).

Quote from: embx61 on July 02, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
I think the solution to make a chain for Thatch is a good one and realistic as well.

To add thatch in the startup stock of resources on easy of the game is simple but very effective idea, Vanilla does the same with iron, Logs and Stone so players can build stuff what require those materials from the start to get the game going. With the thatch stock on easy players can build the building(s) what produces thatch pretty fast to get the process going.
And other starts besides easy are there for the reason to be more challenging.

This was exactly our reasoning as well :).

Quote from: tanypredator on July 03, 2017, 03:10:32 AM
First when I put this version in my old mod list (there were NF, DS mods, RowHouses + NatDiv, latest ForestOutpost, MaritimesTrees, some EB mods and some other small mods), it caused crashes at about half a minute from the start of game. I left only old version of RowHouses, NF and some small mods and now it works.

If NF is put above NatDiv, there is no branches. It makes game really hard. I think, I should update NF again. Also I think that wild oats can be removed now from NF version compatible with NatDiv. And it would be good if grass spawn flax and maybe wild roses, but I'm not sure, how to do that. Maybe you just would be so kind to build a version of NatDiv with flax, roses and bees included, because it would be more simple, it let to avoid doulble  gathering tools and because I hadn't made mods for a long time now... At least until you hadn't made some more beautiful flower bushes, than mine ;)

Hmm.. do you have any idea which of those other mods was causing the crash when put together with NatDiv? We've had some other reports of people having crashes with certain CC start conditions.

It's a bit unfortunate but indeed, the NatDiv compatible version of NF would have to be updated again.. I like your proposition of adding them into NatDiv that would definitely be the easiest solution, I'll talk about it with Despo ;).

Just a side note; Other mods that just use thatch as a requirement shouldn't need to be updated :).

Quote from: tanypredator on July 03, 2017, 11:48:13 PM
"I've noticed that blueberries spawn rather far from berry bushes." - Now when I removed NF, I understand, that this fact was caused with it. I suppose you have put blueberries spawn into berry bushes template and removed it from trees template, but NF put it back there. That is easy to solve.

Also with all that branches playing is much easier. And, to be honest, with modded buildidns that don't require thatch - thatch is produced very slowly.
The blueberry problem is already on our list of things to fix :). I thought it would be convenient to just use the existing template for them indeed, so that the gatherers template would not have to change, but I didn't think about issues with other mods :-X.

Do you think the thatch is produced too slow? Or is it just a bit slow but still okay?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 04, 2017, 06:30:58 AM
Quote from: Bartender on July 04, 2017, 01:41:57 AM
Hmm.. do you have any idea which of those other mods was causing the crash when put together with NatDiv? We've had some other reports of people having crashes with certain CC start conditions.

I suspect 2 mods - Kid's RowHouses + NatDiv and Forest Outpost latest version, which both include your resources. I've also removed MaritimesTrees, but they must not cause any trouble, since they are just a replacer of models. Only maybe because they require more memory, than vanilla trees, and my notebook is too weak...

"I like your proposition of adding them into NatDiv" - Oh, thank you! I was looking forward for this new version, but it is not easy to play with non-fuel thatch and without branches. For another thing this branches look really great, I like to see them in forest! Hadn't you thought about branch collector? Or maybe I've lost that...

"Do you think the thatch is produced too slow? Or is it just a bit slow but still okay?" - It is definitely too slow if one play with vanilla buildings. But with modded buildings it's okay. But on the other side, I would like to see more modded buildings using thatch, if anyone will do. And that would make it too slow again.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on July 04, 2017, 08:41:39 AM
It's true that I have Tany's New Flora resources in both Rowhouses and Forest Outpost.
I have only the flax model (RawMaterialLinen.rsc) and clothes model (RawMaterialLinenClothes.rsc)
and have copied it directly with Tany's path. In my setup it is working.
I haven't played with new NatDiv and Flax patch so I haven't seen the problem.
@tanypredator and @Bartender , you are both welcome to my sources in the Laboratory.
I hope it is possible to solve. If you come up with a solution I'm happy to change my code.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 04, 2017, 09:07:51 AM
kid1293, I meant NatDiv resources, because I've put both NF and NatDiv and it worked. But you may be right that conflict is between NF and your mods, not between NatDiv and your mods. I need to test them without NatDiv to determine that. And I didn't meant Flax patch at all.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: kid1293 on July 04, 2017, 09:11:06 AM
Sorry for the confusion. I have only followed the discussion sporadic.
I hold my tongue and let you work.  :)

edit - one thing!
I always use NatDiv (the old version) and NewFlora. Even when just
starting up to test something. I never had a problem.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 04, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: Bartender on July 04, 2017, 01:41:57 AM

It's also true that the villagers can walk through the water along the downstream side of the fishtrap. This was the only way in which we could make sure that the workers can reach the trap itself from both sides of the river. Basically the villagers can wade through the water because they have the wood of the trap to hold on to ;).


and if you call a "floor"; function and set up a floor in your fbx?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 04, 2017, 12:32:12 PM
@Bartender, have you seen this report from Paeng? http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1593.msg36716;topicseen#msg36716 Seems like you made your mod too hard :) I hadn't tested food production, because of a large amount of stone required to build Thresher. I've had to start a small quarry at the very beginning of game, which I don't do usually.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: raerae1 on July 04, 2017, 11:35:43 PM
I was having problems with slow downs in game after first loading the latest NatDiv. Basically 10x speed would be like 1x at around year 3. I reverted back to the first version of NatDiv, no slow down. But after seeing some of tanypredator's comments I decided to unload Tany's New Flora instead, and reload new NatDiv. Into year 6 of a new town with no slow down, so that seems to be the conflict.

I also noticed that I still have some of the New Flora elements showing up, like the bees and flax, so maybe that is from Kid's mods? (I have the rowhouses and forest outpost mods).

Anyway, I love all the new mods, so thank you all for the work you have put into making Banished a much more interesting game.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 05, 2017, 12:29:28 AM
it is extremly hard to do something that meet our eyes satisfaction without increasing the number of polygons. i think the graphic engine is not that good.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: taniu on July 05, 2017, 02:42:22 AM
I have so set mods - there is no conflicts
1.Flax Patch
2.New Pine Flora
3.New Flora v1
4.Pine Set v 104
5.Natural Diversity v 1.1
6.Ds -Natdiv Thath Patch
7.Work Place v 1.5
8.Maritimes Trees
9.Forest Outdost v 2
10.Vegetable Garden v1.2
@RedKetchup Thank you for explaining why people walk on the water - it does not bother me. "Fish Trap " - I only tested whether the trap can be put on the river and the lake - according to me you can
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 05, 2017, 02:48:58 AM
Thanks again everyone :)

Quote from: tanypredator on July 04, 2017, 06:30:58 AM
Quote from: Bartender on July 04, 2017, 01:41:57 AM
Hmm.. do you have any idea which of those other mods was causing the crash when put together with NatDiv? We've had some other reports of people having crashes with certain CC start conditions.

I suspect 2 mods - Kid's RowHouses + NatDiv and Forest Outpost latest version, which both include your resources. I've also removed MaritimesTrees, but they must not cause any trouble, since they are just a replacer of models. Only maybe because they require more memory, than vanilla trees, and my notebook is too weak...

"I like your proposition of adding them into NatDiv" - Oh, thank you! I was looking forward for this new version, but it is not easy to play with non-fuel thatch and without branches. For another thing this branches look really great, I like to see them in forest! Hadn't you thought about branch collector? Or maybe I've lost that...

"Do you think the thatch is produced too slow? Or is it just a bit slow but still okay?" - It is definitely too slow if one play with vanilla buildings. But with modded buildings it's okay. But on the other side, I would like to see more modded buildings using thatch, if anyone will do. And that would make it too slow again.
I'll do some testing with the mods you and kid mentioned and see if I can reproduce the problem.

We decided not to add a specialized building for the branches gathering because we really want it to be a conscious choice to harvest them in specific moments. The idea is that if you want a worker dedicated to making firewood, it's much more efficient to have them cut wood in a lumber yard. The branches are just an occasional extra if you need them, but shouldn't spawn enough to really provide a stable source of firewood on their own.

We've set the thatch production a bit conservative this time, as in the last version it was a bit too powerful.. As is often the case with finding a balance, you first discover the two extremes before you hit the point of equilibrium ;). We'll probably boost it a bit.

Quote from: RedKetchup on July 04, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: Bartender on July 04, 2017, 01:41:57 AM

It's also true that the villagers can walk through the water along the downstream side of the fishtrap. This was the only way in which we could make sure that the workers can reach the trap itself from both sides of the river. Basically the villagers can wade through the water because they have the wood of the trap to hold on to ;).


and if you call a "floor"; function and set up a floor in your fbx?

This could work, but then we would have to adapt the mesh and add a bridge to it. I think the current situation is the most realistic, as fishermen tend to just walk into the water to empty traps like these ;).

Quote from: tanypredator on July 04, 2017, 12:32:12 PM
@Bartender, have you seen this report from Paeng? http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1593.msg36716;topicseen#msg36716 Seems like you made your mod too hard :) I hadn't tested food production, because of a large amount of stone required to build Thresher. I've had to start a small quarry at the very beginning of game, which I don't do usually.

Thank you for pointing this out! We'll definitely look at the food production as well then.

Quote from: raerae1 on July 04, 2017, 11:35:43 PM
I was having problems with slow downs in game after first loading the latest NatDiv. Basically 10x speed would be like 1x at around year 3. I reverted back to the first version of NatDiv, no slow down. But after seeing some of tanypredator's comments I decided to unload Tany's New Flora instead, and reload new NatDiv. Into year 6 of a new town with no slow down, so that seems to be the conflict.

I also noticed that I still have some of the New Flora elements showing up, like the bees and flax, so maybe that is from Kid's mods? (I have the rowhouses and forest outpost mods).

Anyway, I love all the new mods, so thank you all for the work you have put into making Banished a much more interesting game.

With a combination of mods that add naturally spawning resource to the game, it's always a bit difficult to tell which one is causing the slowdown exactly. Generally it's just the volume of everything combined that's causing the problem, unless one of the mods is really malfunctioning. That said, NatDiv is a pretty heavy mod. The maps are much more densely populated with the addition of our new resources, so a system that is at the low end of the game's requirements will probably have some trouble running it.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 05, 2017, 04:08:05 AM
"We decided not to add a specialized building for the branches gathering because we really want it to be a conscious choice to harvest them in specific moments. The idea is that if you want a worker dedicated to making firewood, it's much more efficient to have them cut wood in a lumber yard. The branches are just an occasional extra if you need them, but shouldn't spawn enough to really provide a stable source of firewood on their own."

Ok, I agree this is more realistic, but then I suggest you to remove berry bushes from branch collecting tool. I mean, I want to gather branches all the time, but I don't want to cut bushes, so I'm unable to send laborers to gather braches from a big area - they will cut bushes. And I have to select each branch separately. With the fact that they disappear quickly, this is little boring.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 05, 2017, 11:45:54 AM
One more thing I noted that I was afraid of from the moment you announced berry bushes. Both foresters and grass gatherer cut bushes off.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on July 05, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Bartender on July 05, 2017, 02:48:58 AMNatDiv is a pretty heavy mod. The maps are much more densely populated with the addition of our new resources, so a system that is at the low end of the game's requirements will probably have some trouble running it.

Yes, definitely... I ran NatDiv together with CC1.75 (plus a few selected of Kid, but nothing else - so it's not Tany's mod per se) and have the same as Raerae - speed 10 with peeps moving like on speed 1... rather the combined power of all, I guess.

Though I must say that I don't have that "effect" with CC_only, which at ~1.5 Gb is a real whopper but runs fairly smooth (even on my admittedly puny laptop)... might be worth checking if there is a rogue item with high poly that could be optimized yet, we've seen how one thing (e.g. a high poly crop) can do this   :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 05, 2017, 01:37:34 PM
How much poly's are the grasses/reeds?

The problem is that while a church or other big building can have a couple thousand poly's easy as the player will not place 10 or 20 of them on a map the bushes, crops, trees are a different story.

Many of those items get spawned/seeded on a map and if a player plays on a huge map it even become worse.

It is not easy however to make low poly crops/trees/bushes/scrubs what still look good in the game too.

I finally after many failed attempts decided to buy a cheap 10 plant set which looked good and are low on poly too.
So hopefully I can learn from those plants how to create those kind of items properly in Max. 4 of them I used in the Herbalist and Natural Irrigation System Deco Mods.

But even a poly count of 140 for a tree x 1000 spawned is 140.000 poly's. Then all the crops and other stuff which get spawned/seeded and it adds up fast.
10 Churches a 3200 poly's = 32K poly's and I not see players placing 10 of those huge churches on the map.

Was it not the cotton crop in CC what used to bog down systems and so BL brought the poly's down?

I like to add while the engine Luke created is all okay for Banished it cannot be compared to the Engines the triple A game companies mostly using and those can handle heavy loads quite well..

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Paeng on July 05, 2017, 01:43:08 PM
Quote from: embx61 on July 05, 2017, 01:37:34 PMWas it not the cotton crop in CC what used to bog down systems and so BL brought the poly's down?

Yeah, that was probably the first that showed how severe this can be with crops... or, as you noted, items that are built in large numbers...  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 05, 2017, 03:39:06 PM
I'm afraid it's not so much the amount of polygons per model, but rather the sheer amount of models that are being spawned. With the addition of reeds and water rocks the whole map basically gets filled with resources, instead of only the land parts. On my 3 year old mid-priced laptop I can still run a large map with no problems with NatDiv alone, but other systems may run into trouble more easily. Combining NatDiv with other mods will only make bottlenecks appear more quickly ofcourse.

I've done as much optimization as possible without losing any visual quality, so there's not much to be gained in the meshes themselves. I do think it would be possible to reduce the amount of spawning though without harming the feel of the mod, especially on the water rocks, since those are only there for aesthetic value.

Quote from: tanypredator on July 05, 2017, 04:08:05 AM
"We decided not to add a specialized building for the branches gathering because we really want it to be a conscious choice to harvest them in specific moments. The idea is that if you want a worker dedicated to making firewood, it's much more efficient to have them cut wood in a lumber yard. The branches are just an occasional extra if you need them, but shouldn't spawn enough to really provide a stable source of firewood on their own."

Ok, I agree this is more realistic, but then I suggest you to remove berry bushes from branch collecting tool. I mean, I want to gather branches all the time, but I don't want to cut bushes, so I'm unable to send laborers to gather braches from a big area - they will cut bushes. And I have to select each branch separately. With the fact that they disappear quickly, this is little boring.
I agree that this may be better. I added it to the list :). As for the removal of blueberry bushes by foresters and reapers; we knew that this was going to occur ofcourse. It makes it even more important to carefully place them ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 05, 2017, 03:59:01 PM
I agree @Bartender

You can always spawn the visual stuff less first and see if it improves for some players.

Maybe instead of spawning the rocks, keep the models but make them in a Deco Ghosting Addon. The same I did with the Irrigation.
If players then spam the map with them at least they have control themselves over it.

If still too slow then maybe spawn some meshes less, start with 5% to 10% spawn decrease on a map and just add a little bit (5 to 10%) in the yield to compensate.

But indeed your and Despo's ND Mod is not the only Mod what spawn all kind of trees, bushes, crops around and if players load them all the FPS will go down.
We have now:

CC- (Not sure if they spawn stuff too) ND, Pine set, New Flora, Garden walls, Not sure if Discrepancy, Kid, and Tom have Mods what spawns stuff too
Add to that all the crops and Orchards and it is bingo.

Luke's engine is not up to par to load all those poly's on a map. I am confident that if Banished was created using for example the cry engine those issues would be way less or not existing at all.
I see meshes for games being sold with 300K poly's so I know it is possible in the right engine to work with such high poly meshes. They use of course LOD but still.

But we have to work with what we got and most players will realize that beauty comes with a prize :)

EDIT: I called Despo Deco  :-[

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on July 05, 2017, 04:15:10 PM
It's a tricky balance problem. Mods do impact on game performance - there is no way around that - and tricks like the no smoke mod and keeping poly count down can only get you so far.

I guess one trick that might help on a large map is clearing some of the forest. Clearing resources with the debug instant build tool instantly wipes the area clean. That should help lighten the load on processor/memory etc.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 05, 2017, 05:00:16 PM
Hi all :)
@Bartender I wrote over on BL that I was loving this update, that the buildings (thanks so much @despo_20 ) are beautiful, and the mod overall is excellent.
@tanypredator I haven't had any problems running your mod with this one, I'll attach my load order for you to look at, you can omit Necora's mods if you don't use his, but keep the same order, and see if that helps you out.

I will state - all feedback needs to be clear - I run over 200 mods - I do have a 2nd copy of Banished now for Steam which I am currently setting up as a Beta only zone, so I can run tests without disrupting regular gameplay.  I used my existing setup with the new NatDiv, so things may be different than someone else's experience.

As for the map lag, on small - I don't have any problems, not initially, but then I have my settings just taken a step lower than what my system can handle (I played minecraft & wurm, and a lot of older games, so for me I'm not needing to ramp up a game as much as I need to, to enjoy it ;) ), the map was fast, I was able to zoom around, harvest, visit, place, etc without having to pause the map - then as things progressed and I added more spawning items (forestry huts etc), then I started to slow - but, I run a lot of mods - so it's not unusual.

I initially felt that the food production with grasses/salads was a bit on the slow side, that I just wasn't getting enough food production up and running for the workers families, then, I moved the buildings closer together and the storage next to each other, and that worked much, much better.

--- I did notice though when a fishing spot stopped working, it was almost instant the food drop, the first time it happened I couldn't find what I was looking for, then I remembered, they have a 'lifespan', and I was able to go and demolish, then rebuild - thank you, I really liked that.  I don't always like the idea of having to rebuild a building, but, given the nature of this particular building - in water all the time, over rocks, fish tangled in nets, hooks, hands, workers etc, it felt right that the fishing spots would need to demolished and built again. 

I just found that the fishing spots were too hard to place, even though they were designed to be on the small streams, on a small map, I only had a few places where I could place them - I think I'd like them to be more forgiving in placement. 

Because of the long edges, (and that's ok, just a lot of naked space in some cases of placement), I wonder if perhaps @despo_20 could design some protein storage that fits into that area between the stream and the roadway, it would need to be ghosted, and 2 wide - some baskets, or something in stone (like a medieval ice cooler?)

It was one of the things I had missed, was some storage that came with the mod - I know, I know - there are buttzillions of storage mods, why yours, but, I think it would fit into place there, a nice little puzzle piece.
I do currently use the BL 1x2 protein storage (which holds a massive haul), and I love it - but it doesn't match the fisheries :D

---  Reeds - I loved these, these were a delight to see when my map first spawned, the brought back some frond memories of some dried ones a relative used to have. :)

I wonder though, given that they can only spawn at x height, and the game can't create an oval - can you at least make the radius a little bigger though?  I felt that I wasn't getting enough 'bang for my tile' the way it was.  By making the radius bigger - the reeds can spread out along the banks right/left further and give some more room to the building?

****  I know this was mentioned over on BL, but I wanted to put it here before I forgot to again, the reeds aren't matching in with CC - now, I know there are those here who don't care for such things (and that's ok), but those that do use the reeds had hoped that both reeds would be compatible so that your reeds would work in CC buildings, and CC reeds would work in your buildings, and most importantly, we would end up with only 1 reeds in our inventory, not 2 :D
If you & Despo decided not to do it this way - have both the reeds use the same name (or template etc), that's cool - it's just a nice idea to know :)

Ask @Necora  one day about eggs :D  hahahahah  He keeps promising I will have 1 set of eggs ...  turns out it was just a typo in the code ;)

------------
Overall, I don't know about the numbers side of things - I didn't pay too much attention, other than it took a little while to pick up, and I felt it when the fish stopped - but, the mod - in general - it's a very beautiful mod, and I'm thrilled that you've gotten it to this point, and I'm glad it's compatible with other mods - and, thank you and Despo for the work you have put into it.

*ps:  I know somewhere in one of the help threads others talked about a RIOT program for optimising textures, to get the balance between the good and the optimal, I'm not sure if you had used that, if you'd run the textures through any optimiziation, that may help with the lag. :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 05, 2017, 09:56:55 PM
i just want to say ... i think Luke knows too there is a problem with his optimization of his graphic engine. i remember he talked about it in one of his blogs :

http://www.shiningrocksoftware.com/2016-06-23-passing-values/ (http://www.shiningrocksoftware.com/2016-06-23-passing-values/)

he talked about the animations and the shader render code..
he got to kill down his citizens to the ground to see his numbers not lagging at some point...

i strongly doubt the fixes are already in game. nothing let me think he added fixes in 1.0.7 beta1+
maybe if he really decide to release his 1.1 version with OpenGL / and linux support it will maybe fix some trouble people have at high speed.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 10:30:31 PM
I don't usually post, however I really do like this mod. Fantastic.
Some small issues I have found, and since I have trouble explaining thing I have included some picture as aids.


That pesky double egg issue shows up again.


Getting Beef Cows from a trader does not show up in inventory. They will stay in the paddock area of the Trading Dock until they die off. They also have a black and white appearance. Thought they were brown.


Both of the above showed up after loading NatDiv2. Included my top load order from NatDiv2 up as I thought mods above will modify lower mods when applicable.


This issues plus some of the ones I have seen here will in no way keep me from using this mod and its starting condition. This mod is great and ads a depth of play that enhances the wonderful work of all of those that have and are contributing to this great builder.


Thanks to all of you.





Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 05, 2017, 10:45:21 PM
strange when i read 3-4 times your list of mods.... @Kristahfer  , i dont see which mods add a black and white color to your cows. busy pasture ?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
It is odd as both the egg and cow issues appeared after loading NatDiv2. Prior to that the orginal NatDiv was in the same place with the same mods above it. Did not have the issues with the orginal NatDiv. I have nothing in my mod list that changes colors of cows at all.





Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 05, 2017, 10:59:30 PM
yes and no. m ods above can actually completely override mods below. to get a mod to influence and work better you want it higher in the list.
you might find this useful:http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1790.0   
    you also seem to have a lot of older mods. i take it the colonial charter icon is a way earlier version of CC? if so uyou would want that lower in the order since it affects the start conditions.2nd to fix the cow problem i would load the compatibility 107 mod and if that doesn't fix it ,the compatable buildings mod from BL.  did you buy trading cows,beef cows,"cows",milk cows,or freishmen cows?? you might have the wrong type of pasture as trade cows is different.i'm wondering if the trader accept all is correlated to CC and therefore bringing you all items even 1's you can't use.
  you could try moving the riffle mod down and then take all those from that mod down and put them at the top. then put the trade fix mod above everything.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 05, 2017, 11:02:23 PM
My Unified Mod changes cows to black and white but I did not see it in your mod list.

It's a Dutch thing, most cows in Holland are black and white
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 11:18:27 PM
Ah, not explaining things completely. Here is a complete list of my running mods. I am running the newest version of CC. Being 73 I am slow, I know, but it appears that all active mods work, but being slow I have not tested all of them. There are some minor issues with MegaMod, but still workable.


My better half calls me a mod hog....


edit: Thanks @embx61, I rarely use Beef Cows as I like the black and white.


Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 05, 2017, 11:19:41 PM
@Kristahfer Hiya :)

The double eggs is a known bug, it's a typo in @Necora 's code.  One version has 'egg' and the other has 'eggs' and that has delivered 2 lots of eggs now to the player.  It has been flagged to be fixed in his next update, upon his return.

The black & white cows - would be from CC, but the only reference I see to it are add-ons, not the whole mod.
Kid, RK & EB all put out Black & White cows as well, but none seem to be there.

Is that your whole mod list??

I think I'm missing something.  :D

Oh, don't touch your mod order - at this point, it looks absolutely fine, and if these are your only bugs, and 1 is actually a known bug, then don't touch your load order - it's not worth the headache, when you know it's not you, it's the mod :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 05, 2017, 11:27:07 PM
oh, I see now.

I amend my last post @Kristahfer

All is ok - the eggs are bugs; the cows are normal; load order is good
The only things I would change:

Move these nearer the top (unless specific for under CC)
banishedUImod
banishedUImt
banishedUIprofessions
Radius
BlackLiquidRain
WaterAndOtherDecorations
XP-Schools
BetterStockPiles  --  works better over MM/CC

I've had stuck animals before - I ended up having to destroy the trader and move it - it's either a pathing issue, or noone knows why the animals get stuck, it's just odd.  :(

As for the eggs you'll end up with so many that your trader will get an eggache!!  hahahaha
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 05, 2017, 11:34:25 PM
the picture of your black cows doesnt seems to be mine nor CC ones. our cows are more slim, less black, more white, and have a tail.
so probably, you didnt selected the good ones in your pastures.

also, check the numbers of cows in the pasture. if it shows 6/8 cows but see nothing inside it : that mean that they are really assigned to it but stay in the TP cause pathing / lack of update.
but if in your pasture it shows 0/8 ... then selected the wrong one.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 11:43:11 PM

Thanks @QueryEverything , I will adjust my load order. I have always been amazed that they all work.


Great Joke.....
Quote from: QueryEverything on July 05, 2017, 11:27:07 PM
As for the eggs you'll end up with so many that your trader will get an eggache!!  hahahaha


Pasture shows the correct number @RedKetchup . Not really a big issue as it does not stop other animal trades and the moving them to pasture. Eventually they will die off, or so it appears.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 05, 2017, 11:49:51 PM
Quote from: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 11:43:11 PM
Pasture shows the correct number @RedKetchup . Not really a big issue as it does not stop other animal trades and the moving them to pasture. Eventually they will die off, or so it appears.


if they are assigned then it is just a lack of update of the pathing issue. they will still work as usual, and when they will slaughter one cause too old... the resources will simply fall on the ground near the TP. citizens still will go pickup the food and leather though

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 05, 2017, 11:55:31 PM
@Kristahfer glad you liked the joke :)

Run a quick test.

Disabled the Better stock piles.  Try and place a Log (using the specialized ones), 1x30 - it should work without it.
If so, just leave the mod disabled.  You shouldn't need it - not with the Unified Mod, and the MM mods in place, as they both have specialised mods listed.

I found that only storage boosters would end up working, and now I can place 1x30 long stock piles, excellent for forestry areas etc. 

I have mine listed:

New Flora / Pine / NatDiv series
General Mods - inc Unified etc
MM/CC (inc compat) mods

The very top are game changers, map alterers, start changers, UI changes, music etc, storage expanders and so on.
Sometimes it can take a while to sort bugs out, but for the most part it's fairly straight forward. 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 06, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Hmmm... What is the weight of new foods? Seems like it is large. I can store about 400 units of meat in Kid's deco storages, but only 40 Wild Cereals!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 06, 2017, 02:05:02 PM
after way too many tests and reworking the mod order,i can report this. the way i have the order now is RED's trade fix,flax patch,pine 104,forget orchard,and then the NAT DIV 1.1.below this i have the forever forest mod which is most likely obsoleted and not working due to the order.these are my topmost mods in order from the top down.  with this order the pine vanilla gatherer collects around 600 food the 1st year.if i clear the rocks and run this farther, theory is the gatherer will collect more next year. very reasonable and no complaints with that.my herbalist is 0.he is working as a laborer. if i scroll the herb tool over the circle,there are about 4 or 5 herbs.as laborers clear land they are not finding herbs either.knowing a map can affect things,i ran 3 tests. numbers are fairly consistent.
     now if i move the forget about orchard mod below the NAT DIV,the production changes dramatically.my gatherer produces 1000 more than now.my trapper shows progress.the herbalist stays busy. he leaves his area when there is no herbs and rerturns when herbs appear.
  the orchard mod makes the orchards produce fruit the 1st year and doesn't require the trees to be cut and replanted every  few years. the conflicting files read tree growth crs. it is claiming it is conflicted with the NAT DIV and  shows no conflicts with the pine mod. i'm not sure what files the NAT DIV is using or needs to affect trees,let alone crop fruit trees.why it affects the herbs and seems to affect the trapper i have no ideas.
    in theory if i move the orchard mod down 1 below the ND,it will not work.it does claim all the tree growth files are not loaded.hopefully that gives BARTENDER some info on how it functions and clues to the mystery.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Kristahfer on July 06, 2017, 06:24:02 PM
@QueryEverything , I ran the test that you suggested. As you surmised, disabling Better Stockpile Storage and placing a specialized stockpile (Logs) worked without issue.


Thank you for that suggestion.


The only reason I have the mods without any conflict at the bottom is because I am lazy and use the Move To Top to re-position my mods where I want them, then adjust for conflicts. Placing the non-conflicting mods at the bottom means I can reduce button pushing. Since you indicated that they may work better at the top of the list I will move them and see what happens.


Again, thanks for your suggestions.


Your and the others in this forum deserve great thanks for sharing your experience and skills with us all.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 06, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
@Kristahfer that's excellent news about stock piles :)  Sometimes something may look right in game - but the 1x30 is always my 'litmus test', if I can't do that after installing a stockpile mod, then there is something wrong because I know it can be done. :D

I used to always leave the greens down the bottom, but things like UI changes etc I like to have up the top to make sure I can quick change them etc, and some of the UI ones may have fine print that they need to be near the top, so just double check.  :D

If you have any other load questions feel free to PM, or start a new thread, (poor @Bartender hahaha ;) ) you can always Tag me, I'll be happy to help you in another thread. :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 07, 2017, 04:14:37 AM
Some more testing. I'm playing with pure NatDiv, without other spawn mods.

I was able to get enough firewood for my small village of about 15 adults by manuall gathering (and I've noted that foresters gather firewood too, but as the result they gather less wood). I even have some to sale.

I have 2 reapers and 1 thresher, and I get about 450-500 food  from them.

And my forest gatherers don't get enough food. I have 1 and it gathers about 450-550 food, which is Ok, but as I can see (not tested) there is nothing to gather for any more gatherers - no more vegs left ungathered. And they gather almost no berries, because it's hard to find separate places for forester AND reaper AND gatherer. I suppose that firewood occupy forest food space.

Berries need time to "grow", but that cannot be determined visually, as well as their maturity. I don't know how many berries I've gathered manually, which really gave 4-10 berries, because they were not grown.

And just to have it all here in one place - new foods weight is too big.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 08, 2017, 08:59:47 AM
Oh dear, that's a lot of replies to sift through :P. I'll try to answer all the questions and remarks, but please let me know if I forgot anything ;).

Quote from: QueryEverything link=topic=1633.msg36793#msg36793Hi all :)
I initially felt that the food production with grasses/salads was a bit on the slow side, that I just wasn't getting enough food production up and running for the workers families, then, I moved the buildings closer together and the storage next to each other, and that worked much, much better.

.....

I just found that the fishing spots were too hard to place, even though they were designed to be on the small streams, on a small map, I only had a few places where I could place them - I think I'd like them to be more forgiving in placement.

...

Because of the long edges, (and that's ok, just a lot of naked space in some cases of placement), I wonder if perhaps @despo_20 could design some protein storage that fits into that area between the stream and the roadway, it would need to be ghosted, and 2 wide - some baskets, or something in stone (like a medieval ice cooler?)

It was one of the things I had missed, was some storage that came with the mod - I know, I know - there are buttzillions of storage mods, why yours, but, I think it would fit into place there, a nice little puzzle piece.

...

---  Reeds - I loved these, these were a delight to see when my map first spawned, the brought back some frond memories of some dried ones a relative used to have. :)

I wonder though, given that they can only spawn at x height, and the game can't create an oval - can you at least make the radius a little bigger though?  I felt that I wasn't getting enough 'bang for my tile' the way it was.  By making the radius bigger - the reeds can spread out along the banks right/left further and give some more room to the building?

****  I know this was mentioned over on BL, but I wanted to put it here before I forgot to again, the reeds aren't matching in with CC - now, I know there are those here who don't care for such things (and that's ok), but those that do use the reeds had hoped that both reeds would be compatible so that your reeds would work in CC buildings, and CC reeds would work in your buildings, and most importantly, we would end up with only 1 reeds in our inventory, not 2 :D
If you & Despo decided not to do it this way - have both the reeds use the same name (or template etc), that's cool - it's just a nice idea to know :)

....

*ps:  I know somewhere in one of the help threads others talked about a RIOT program for optimising textures, to get the balance between the good and the optimal, I'm not sure if you had used that, if you'd run the textures through any optimiziation, that may help with the lag. :D
Thank you for the elaborate feedback :)! I tried to cut out the things I can respond to, so that this post doesn't get too long :P.
- We're going to boost the production of wild cereals and wild salad slightly, so that it matches better to other sources.
- It's not easy to give enough freedom for the placement of the fish trap and reaper's boat, while still ensuring that they allign nicely with the river banks. We'll try to see if it's possible to make it a bit more lenient though.
- I know for a fact that despo already has plans for different storage areas, though they will come in a subsequent update ;).
- The reeds should be compatible with CC, as promised. This was a typo just like the Egg duplication tragedy, but it will be fixed in the full version :).
- We'll see if the radius of the reaper's boat can be made bigger without things looking too weird, we've set it quite strict currently.
- I have used the RIOT program, but thank you for suggesting it again. It's a great tool for making the texture files smaller indeed!

Quote from: Kristahfer on July 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
It is odd as both the egg and cow issues appeared after loading NatDiv2. Prior to that the orginal NatDiv was in the same place with the same mods above it. Did not have the issues with the orginal NatDiv. I have nothing in my mod list that changes colors of cows at all.

It seems that this issue was resolved already, but I just wanted to confirm that this is definitely not a result of our mod, we do nothing with eggs and cows ;).

Quote from: tanypredator on July 06, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Hmmm... What is the weight of new foods? Seems like it is large. I can store about 400 units of meat in Kid's deco storages, but only 40 Wild Cereals!

You are absolutely right! I probably copied the files from a heavy resource and forgot to change that number. The weight will be 1 for both the cereals and the salad, like it is for all food resources.

Quote from: tanypredator on July 07, 2017, 04:14:37 AM
Some more testing. I'm playing with pure NatDiv, without other spawn mods.

I was able to get enough firewood for my small village of about 15 adults by manuall gathering (and I've noted that foresters gather firewood too, but as the result they gather less wood). I even have some to sale.

I have 2 reapers and 1 thresher, and I get about 450-500 food  from them.

And my forest gatherers don't get enough food. I have 1 and it gathers about 450-550 food, which is Ok, but as I can see (not tested) there is nothing to gather for any more gatherers - no more vegs left ungathered. And they gather almost no berries, because it's hard to find separate places for forester AND reaper AND gatherer. I suppose that firewood occupy forest food space.

Berries need time to "grow", but that cannot be determined visually, as well as their maturity. I don't know how many berries I've gathered manually, which really gave 4-10 berries, because they were not grown.

And just to have it all here in one place - new foods weight is too big.

Thank you again!

- The numbers for the manual gathering of firewood seem a bit high.. I'll look into that, because it was definitely not intended to be that strong.
- The forest food numbers are supposed to be lower than in vanilla, as the gatherer will get more food from the meadows and from the berry bushes now. In all my testing I haven't been able to figure out the exact influence of adding more spawning elements to a 'parent' resource, but I don't think that the inclusion of the branches the problem. After all, our mod actually reduces the amount of resources that are being spawned in the forest.
- The berry numbers are very dependant on how big the group of bushes is, with only a few there won't be a lot of production indeed. How big the groups are seems to depend quite a lot on the map seed, I've tried to find a proper balance but it has been very difficult to find the right balance. If more people feel that the output is too low we could increase the group sizes.
- The berries 'grow' to maturity within a month, which seems to be the shortest possible time. If I could I'd change this ofcourse, but unfortunately I haven't been able to do it. I'll try again if I can find a workaround, otherwise I think it might be best to indeed make them 'grow' in size. Even though that's less realistic, it at least provides a visual cue.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 08, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
with the extreme slow down that this brings,is a lite version planned?it is odd that the upgraded version affects the forget about orchard mod but the original did not. any chance the reed fix can be added into the original version as it is it knocks out all reeds?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 08, 2017, 09:36:35 AM
Great! Nice to hear that you are working on that. I think, you can decrease the spawn chance on branches - that would decrease their yield and, if there is a correlation nevertheless, increase the amount of other plants.

And I suggest you again to include wild roses and bees - that would compensate the hardness of berry gathering :) The only note is that if you are going to add any other red berries later, maybe it would be more accurate to rename rose hips to some more abstract name, such as "red berries" :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 08, 2017, 10:41:37 AM
@Bartender, I had no slowdown or lag with the light version but I would very much like the firewood branches added to it.  I think the yield is just fine as it is and would not want to see it decreased.  The lag is quite notable when it rains or I move the map over thick forest.  Pausing when moving locations helps.

I would not want to see New Flora added to this mod. There is enough already.  Those that want to and can, can use it in addition to NatDiv.  When you load NF first you get no firewood.  I use New Flora often and would not use it with this mod now that I am using NatDiv on Meadowbrook map, I would prefer to use them on separate maps, to pick and choose at my discretion.  It would be nice if @tanypredator could add decorative cattails (or reeds as they are call in NatDiv) to her water and Other Decorations mod.  The reeds look very nice.  The meadows are beautiful.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: The Pilgrim on July 08, 2017, 10:55:54 AM
@Bartender   I am having serious lag issues even on a pretty high end system. Unfortunately this is the only mod that is causing the issues. This is happening on everything larger than a small map.
It looks stunningly beautiful, but the lag issue has to get cleared up or, at least for me, the mod will only be usable in the light version.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 08, 2017, 11:21:15 AM
Quote from: Abandoned on July 08, 2017, 10:41:37 AM
I would not want to see New Flora added to this mod. There is enough already.

That is why I first suggested to make just a version with NF included. But I understand, that it could be boring to update many separate versions. The other way is if I add branches to trees' spawn in NF.

I think I have read that Bartender was going to make deco vesion of his plants after a while.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 08, 2017, 11:41:26 AM
@tanypredator those branches added to New Flora would be great  You know how much I love NF, I have the old version with the original blue flax.  If I don't use NF I often use just the wild oats or linen production separate. Love the wild bees.  A version with those branches would be wonderful.

Now that you mention it, I think I too read something about deco plants.  That will be nice, those plants are beautiful in the meadow.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 08, 2017, 11:49:35 AM
Quote from: Abandoned on July 08, 2017, 11:41:26 AM
@tanypredator those branches added to New Flora would be great  You know how much I love NF, I have the old version with the original blue flax.  If I don't use NF I often use just the wild oats or linen production separate. Love the wild bees.  A version with those branches would be wonderful.

That is up to @Bartender to decide. Either he include my resources into a version of NatDiv (because it would just be easier and because I'm not available sometimes...), or he gives me branches resource and I include them, or maybe both... I would be Ok with any.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 08, 2017, 02:08:26 PM
@tanypredator , up to Bartender, yes of course.  I think he is going to be a little busy with this lag problem.  We shall see.  NatDiv and New Flora both great mods.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 09, 2017, 01:34:46 AM
Regarding the compatibility with New Flora, we'll look at that when this version is finished. I think a patch or compatibility version might be the best indeed, so that people can choose. If you feel like making one yourself that's also fine with us @tanypredator ;).

As for the lag, that's a bit of a difficult one to tackle.. I've done various tests on my own system, and I simply can't reproduce it. Even on a large map, with highest graphic settings, I'm getting a solid 30 fps even when completely zoomed out. Ofcourse this number gradually decreases as I start building my city, but such is the way of things in the world of Banished.

To really understand what's causing the problem, I would like to receive some more information about the lags.
- Are they lag spikes or is the game consistently slow?
- If it's mainly lag spikes, what are you looking at when they occur? Are you zoomed in or zoomed out?
- what are your graphic settings?
- which other mods are you using?

Receiving some answers to these questions would be a great help in understanding where the problem comes from :). If we're to do some more optimizations then it would mean that we'll have to do some concessions on the visual aspect of the mod, so before doing that we should be absolutely sure that what were doing will actually have an effect.

Quote from: brads3 on July 08, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
with the extreme slow down that this brings,is a lite version planned?it is odd that the upgraded version affects the forget about orchard mod but the original did not. any chance the reed fix can be added into the original version as it is it knocks out all reeds?
The plan is to release a 'light' version in the same fashion as for v1.0, so one that only changes the look of the existing natural resources. If it turns out that too many people are having lag issues, we could think of an actual light version of the full mod.

It's not odd that the update affects the orchard trees, as those have received a 'rebellious crops' functionality. This will conflict with other mods that alter the growth behaviour of the orchard trees.

Adding the reeds to the old NatDiv version retroactively is not something I would personally want to do. They would not be functional without the associated buildings, and keeping too many different versions of the mod would get messy very quickly.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Gatherer on July 09, 2017, 02:55:06 AM
A little thought on the lag issue. Is anyone experiencing it also using minimize mods for town halls and trading posts?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 09, 2017, 03:11:50 AM
Do you all mean a lag when playing at x10? Because I'm using minimize mods, but hadn't any such troubles, but I'm always playing x1. The only problem I've had is when a game is loading very long, if I use big mods, such as DS Village.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 09, 2017, 03:18:58 AM
Quote from: Bartender on July 09, 2017, 01:34:46 AM
Regarding the compatibility with New Flora, we'll look at that when this version is finished. I think a patch or compatibility version might be the best indeed, so that people can choose. If you feel like making one yourself that's also fine with us @tanypredator ;).
I can make NF+branches, as a quick solution, while you are working on other things. The reason why I suggested to join mods is that I actually don't like my gathering buildings very much (especially first ones), and because you have added manual gathering tools, that are doubled now if one plays both of our mods. And also the resources are now doubled to achive compatibility.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 09, 2017, 04:53:37 AM
@Bartender I am playing a small map, the mods I am using are listed at beginning of blog Meadowbrook story.  I notice the lag during rain or snow or when moving the camera view to a different section of the map especially over an area of vanilla trees.  I use game speed 1x, when moving the map it helps to pause first.  No difference when zooming in or out.

The only time I ever experience any lag was when trying CC Journey and not only did it lag, it completely froze up.  I have been using minimize buttons but have used before on non-cc maps with no slow down whatsoever.

I will load a beginning save game and see if the slowdown occurred before planting the cropfield, could the problem be cause by the rebellious  crop and orchard respawning?  Three extra cabbage makes little difference to the food supply, seems unnecessary. Perhaps make into a separate mod.  I am using Better Fields mod. Others mentioned no problem with earlier version of the mod. I had no problem with the light version and would like it if the branches could be added to it.

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 09, 2017, 08:22:42 AM
changing graphic settings had no affect.i am using the new pine mod with it.zoom didn't seem to help either.what was strange too i normally minimize my screen and let the game run a bit.with the game not on screen normally i gain a ton of speed.i can plan a few buildings or clear land,minimize the screen,and in a minute or so pull the window back up and the work is done. the game will progress about a season by doing this. with the new nat div it does not help. even with the window off the desktop i do not gain speed,it crawls.the workers were starting to skip and stutterstep instead of walk.it does seem to get worse the more you build.i always play at 10x.i am not using any minimize townhalls.doesn't seem to be related to just graphics. i have a feeling it has to do with the rocks in the water.don't know why though.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 09, 2017, 09:59:25 AM
More info regarding lag, hope it may help shed light on cause of problem.  I played map a bit more without making any changes.  I cut a group of trees and set garden shed forester to cut only, this helped the speed in that area somewhat. The bannies were still moving slower than normal.  I moved the camera view to an area with some buildings, some trees, some meadow, the river and brook with rocks and watched.  The bannies were moving slowly already so when it rain there seemed to be less of a slow down, the big difference was when the leaves fell off the trees and the snow covered the ground.  The bannies returned to normal 1x speed even when the snow began to fall again.  When spring came and the trees got their leaves, the bannies slowed down again but not as much as before and not as much when it rained.   ??? 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 11, 2017, 07:02:08 PM
@Bartender it was bothering me that the lag problem in Meadowbrook was not getting increasingly worse as I continued building and expanding.  Had it been a video card problem the lag should have worsened leaving me to believe it was the mod itself or a conflict.  My guess was conflict.  I decided to start a test map exactly the same as Meadowbrook but disable one mod at a time to see what I could find.  My first test map before starting Meadowbrook I had New Flora above NatDiv and got no branches spawning.  When starting Meadowbrook I put New Flora after NatDiv and got branches but no New Flora at all. I left it that way.

Now, I disabled New Flora and began test map otherwise exactly the same as Meadowbrook and no lag whatsoever, not during rain, not during snow, not when moving the camera over the forest.  New Flora seems to be the culprit.  I am wondering if @The Pilgrim and @brads3 had New Flora enabled on their NatDiv maps when they experienced their lag problem.

I would not have used two such mods together on the same map, preferring one or the other on a map for variety.  I would not like to see them combined.  Both mods are beautiful in their own right. 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: The Pilgrim on July 11, 2017, 07:40:11 PM
@Abandoned   I don't use the new flora mod.  I would agree that a conflict is just as likely, but i will say that I had a similar problem before NMT and CC optimized their poly counts way down. 
As far as conflict goes, my guess (and that is all it is is a rather undereducated guess) is that it may be the maritimes trees mod as they have to be placed into a certain order (trees on top i believe) so as not to cause a crash.  I will test this theory as soon as I can.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 11, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
@The Pilgrim , disabling New Flora seems to have solved my lag problem.  I did not have any of the Maritime mods enable. So it may just be the size of NatDiv and I had one too many mods. Mine was on a small map.  I will have to read up on Maritime again before I try those, I thought the load order problem was solved.  I don't think Brads3 came up with the cause of his NatDiv lag, I believe he said he had no problem with the earlier version.  I hope it gets solved, it is a great looking mod.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 12, 2017, 05:29:10 AM
Thank you for the information, it's helping a lot in determining the source of the problem :). Unfortunately it seems like it's indeed just a 'general' overload of the game having to handle too many things at the same time, which ofcourse is likely to happen faster in combination with other mods.

The mod is currently optimized as much as possible without losing any visual quality. @despo_20 and I are currently looking into making a 'performance' version, with slightly lower visual quality but a better optimization for those who need it. That way everyone would be able to use the mod, but we wouldn't have to compromise on visual quality for those who don't have any problems running it.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 08:28:46 AM
with all the mods i run,this mod did slow dramatically when i moved the forget orchard and forever tree mods.the higher in the order i placed the nat div the slower the game ran. when i moved it above the orchard i saw i huge slow down. i can run any other mod including the original version without a problem.i even run the pine mod.i am not using the new flora either. never seen any mod slow down a game like this did.
   the original version shows no conflicts with the orchard mod. it seems to be the changes that affect the tree mods. not saying the conflicts but whatever those files are is where it seems to be.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 12, 2017, 08:48:10 AM
@Bartender and @brads3 my best guess is still that it is a conflict caused by other mods that spawn, like new flora, test map removing that mod worked just fine.  I would think Necora's pine set would definitely be a problem. Like you said, Bartender, too many items.  I don't use all that many mods on a map at the same time so have very few problems or load orders to worry about.  I could run cc Journey without noticeable slow down, it just froze up on most map start choices.  I know I will use NatDiv or the light version often, I hope others will be able to also.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 02:35:02 PM
i ran a test of this mod by itself. without any other mods this 1 mod slows my game down father than all my other mods combined. when i took it out and ran vanilla it was like the workers had super speed.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 02:56:25 PM
There are conflicting experiences from one player to the other.

By some it slows the game down by itself and others say it run okay by itself but not with (Some) other Mods.

Abandoned had a slow down with New Flora loaded as well. When New Flora disabled it run better she reported.

I still think it is just the poly count what adds up with so many items spawned on the map.
I don't know how Luke has the spawning code done in C++ but remember, Vanilla only spawns about 3 crops (roots, herbs, berries) and the trees as well as Iron and stone and that is about it.

I would if I was in Bartenders shoes disable the rocks in the water. Compile a test version and see if the lag improves.

Finding the exact cause of this problem is one of the hardest things to do because the reports given are different from one player to the next and also depends on what PC/laptop it is running from.

Maybe some more players want to run a test game for Bartender with ONLY Nat Div loaded as mod. Nothing else and paly some years.
And then report back what the experiences are.

Giving the specs of the PC/Laptop they are running it on could be helpful too.

Don't need a whole list of DX crap but just what kind of CPU, how much RAM and the video cart model.

I am just so freaking busy to test. I hardly test my own mods to be honest. LOL
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 03:02:41 PM
Oh fuck it (Pardon my French  :P)

I going tonight play a test game with only Nat Div loaded and do a test how it performs.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 12, 2017, 03:20:15 PM
@embx61 , I agree, strange results.  I have laptop with windows 7.  Intel Pentium 3558 processor, Intel HD graphics, and 4GB Ram.  I was going to say map size could be making a big difference.  Mine story and test map is a small plain.  I believe @The Pilgrim mentioned medium and large maps and I think @brads3 uses large maps.  I like those rocks in the river but maybe a few less would help. What I thought strange was that speed seemed to improve a bit as I built more making me think problem was more conflict related than system.  Test map with all the same settings and mods except New Flora and the speed was perfectly normal,  Go Figure!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 03:31:00 PM
I must do something wrong

I downloaded NATDIV 1.1 (April 2017) and it is the only mod loaded together with the debug menu.

Start a new map (Large) and enabled only NATDIV and Debug menu.

After the game reloaded I don't see any rocks in the water, no grass meadows.

I see however 1 tatcher profession, a button to harvest grass and 1 tatcher building. That is it.

It also not make use of the community Toolbar?

I am sure this is a fault on my end and probably the result as not playing Banished anymore :)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 12, 2017, 03:52:42 PM
@embx61 the mod doesn't use the community tool bar, the icons are in different vanilla categories and have a green dot on them.  The meadows are areas with few trees and the plants disappear in winter so it takes a few months for them to show up.  There should be the dark green grasses though and I had quite a few rocks in the river and small streams.  There is also the fish trap under food I think to build across the stream and there is also the reed reaper to build.  NatDiv 1.1 is the version.  Try a smaller map maybe.  And look in menu for those green dots.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 03:57:32 PM
It looks like some is loaded and other parts not.

I went over all the icons and there are only 2 extra buttons. I thatcher hut and 1 button to harvest grass.
1 profession Thatcher.

No rocks at all in the rivers. It looks like Vanilla overall.

I see that some vanilla buildings require Thatch to build so that works.

Is there a special starting condition map I have to play? But I don't see one. Just the Vanilla Plains and Mountains.

Hmmm. No green dot on those Icons either.

When I downloaded this mod it guided me to the CC site and I got it from there. Probably never updated over there?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: khemari on July 12, 2017, 04:01:27 PM
Not your fault at all @embx61 - the latest beta wasn't published in the downloads section but just in this discussion thread - post 245 on June 28, I think you have the earlier version.

It is downloaded from https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ZePVZCUPiuQ0RHc09VVktyc1k/edit (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ZePVZCUPiuQ0RHc09VVktyc1k/edit). Hope that helps!!!  :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 04:06:01 PM
Ah, thanks

I get that one :)

Oh I see already 128 megs and the other one I got was about 46 Megs :)

Okay. Going to do some groceries and tonight I going to do a test phase.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 04:24:32 PM
It seems like a got the right version. NatDiv2.pkm

I still not see rocks in the water though.

I also see no grasses, reeds spawned on the map at the start. Is this the normal behavior and it just take a bit to spawn?

I see more buildings though and the icons have a green thingy on them.

In the map it says by condition NatDiv (Medium) So it looks like it loaded the start conditions.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 04:48:32 PM
any other mods enabled?i know this sounds dumb, but you are running 1.07 right?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 12, 2017, 04:56:46 PM
I have NatDiv v1.1 downloaded from this site download section.  @brads3 what version do you have?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 06:07:30 PM
natdiv and natdiv2.pkm
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 06:24:53 PM
Yes running 1.07 and no other mods enabled except Debug.

I have the fish trap building and the other buildings like thatcher and reaper.

3 new professions.

The question I have is, If the map reloads after enabling the mod should I see directly grasses/reeds/etc. spawned on the map?

Or are they spawning after a while?

Because I don't see any. I saw some branches in the forest though and some different mushrooms.

The PKM is named NatDiv2 and in the mod list it says version 1.1.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 06:26:40 PM
Quote from: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 06:07:30 PM
natdiv and natdiv2.pkm

Not suppose to run them both enabled are we?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 06:30:15 PM
everything you say should be right.did you look around the map more? you should see grasses and reeds.you could have been dropped into the map in a bad spot. otherwise it is working.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
here is some pics of the mod in game. notice there isn't much grass at the start point but is reeds.maps do vary some.
http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=1808.msg36575#msg36575
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 06:46:10 PM
I have no grass at all at the start. No rocks in water either.

I see branches though and slowly more mushrooms and stuff is spawning but no grass/reeds unless I place a building what seeds them.

I try a new Medium instead of large map and see if it makes a difference.

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
does your map setting say (nat div)?? it should
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 12, 2017, 08:09:07 PM
Thanks for testing embx ;)! You're indeed supposed to see the natural resources straight away. The newest version was compiled with the latest beta version of the mod kit, and you need to choose one of the NatDiv starting conditions to see them (they replace the regular easy/medium/hard). With that, everything should work.

Quote from: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 06:26:40 PM
Quote from: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 06:07:30 PM
natdiv and natdiv2.pkm

Not suppose to run them both enabled are we?

Definitely not, I wouldn't be surprised if that's a big part of why it's running so slow for you brads ;). This beta version is a stand alone, it doesn't need the old one and they would duplicate a lot of things if you have the two enabled at the same time.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 12, 2017, 08:19:04 PM
no i only run 1. i was answering which versions i have. i even tried earlier with just the new version mod with NO other mods installed.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 12, 2017, 10:56:48 PM
LOL

I first started a new game and then enabled the mod.

But of course after loading Banished FIRST add NatDiv as a Mod and then start a new game with the mod enabled :)
Then I saw the Nat Div conditions :)

Well, we can tell I do not play Banished anymore since I started Modding as I do not even know how to load a mod properly anymore  :-[

game is loaded and I see now the rocks in the water and several grasses.

No mods besides NatDiv and debug. Valleys, Large Map. NatDiv Medium. Fair.

Up to do a test drive :)



Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 12:03:55 AM
My conclusions so far.

This is just a fast overview of what I experience so far after about 40 minutes (1 year) in the game.
First I want to say what a beautiful job Bartender and Despo did.
Yes, I saw the screen shots but never saw the action life in game. one word comes to mind: Stunning!!!!

The reaper boat what also act as a bridge is a very clever design as I first wanted to build a bridge next to it but saw just in time a Bannie walking across the wooden boards :)

A lot of verts and triangles are loaded (That is one of the reasons I have Debug loaded so I can check that stuff  ;) ) but no slowdown on my AMD 8 core 4000Mhz CPU. 16 Gig GSkill RAM, and a NVidea video cart with 6 Gig RAM on board.
This is not top of the line but it is fairly close. (I always about 2 years behind the newest stuff as I not going to pay $400 for a CPU when the price is dropped to about $150 a year later. :)
And all the newest stuff is IMHO only nice for those people who measure speed/FPS with all kind of measuring software.
Believe me, our mindset will not see any difference between a CPU what came rolling of the assembly bench yesterday then the one what rolled of the bench a year ago  ;)

Tried all the speeds a bit zoomed in and out a lot and only the FPS goes from 60 to about 53/54 if I zoom out all the way.
This of course is logical because way more triangles (Poly's) and Vertices are in the screen on complete zoom out)

I zoomed in and out as fast as I could on huge patches of grass but just a little FPS drop to 53/54 FPS before going back to 60 if zoomed back in.

I will test way more then this because IMHO this mod deserves to be accessible for everyone so I hope we can come to the why it lags for several people.
I still think that the lots of poly's because of the spawning and/or other mods loaded together with NatDiv are the cause of the lag on certain systems.

I plan to do a about several 40 minutes (About 1 year) sessions everyday when I need a break from Modding for a while and the town will of course be growing.
If I reach about year ten I will start adding mods to see what happens.

I not planning running a beautiful stunning town as Paeng. Not looking at the numbers and values of production either. I leave that for our dedicated number crushers like Nilla :)

Just plop a bunch of stuff down, assign workers and let the game run at several speeds and keep an eye on FPS/lag/ other maybe issues.

So far NONE to report. It runs so far fine on my PC but I have a pretty decent one though.

I have the Town Hall inventory menu open while doing all this messing around.

At 1 year zoomed out on a certain area more then 13,5 million vertices and about 7 million triangles were loaded in the screen :)
At zoom in it dropped to about 75/80% of those numbers.

The engine can certainly handle lots of poly's pretty well it seems and so I retract my words that the engine maybe was also part to blame.

More to follow.....

EDIT:

I like to add that at 10x speed all the way zoomed out the FPS still hovered around 36 to 37 FPS.
Not bad at all for 10x speed all the way zoomed out and inventory window of the town hall open. :)

The more I think about it the more I believe it is just a certain combination of mods loaded together what is the culprit as so far NatDiv runs just fine by itself.

Also the specs of some players their PC's/laptops are maybe not up to the task of loading all those extra triangles and vertices what a mod like Natural Diversity need to look beautiful.

I understand that some want it all but I say, "sure, but you can have it all, but not all at the same time"  ;) :)



Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 13, 2017, 01:40:02 AM
Quote from: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 12:03:55 AM
A lot of verts and triangles are loaded (That is one of the reasons I have Debug loaded so I can check that stuff  ;) )

thats something i never never think to check :S

for sure all my mods adds a tons of it everywhere and everything i do.
this why i said , i am far to be good. i main concern is : things need to visually please me and i get satisfied.
also there is another thing i like : more easy to do things, i hate when it become too complicated, when it comes : i close the 3dsmax all the time and go play civ6 ^^
and i stop to draw.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 01:47:37 AM
Scrubs/trees and such are hard to model with low poly and still looking good.

We are not the paid professionals who make a bunch of $$$ by working for the big game companies as 3d moddelers and the film industry(CGI).

Don't forget, lots of those people get trained indoor while we have to do it by watching you tube videos and look for tutorials online and learn from each other.

We do it for fun, they do it as a job.




Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 02:16:45 AM
BTW Red

You optimized quite a bit of your NMT buildings?

My first buildings were high poly too because all the walls were boxes and if I cut a window out I never welded all the lines above and below those windows.
I see the same in Pilgrims houses. all those squares on the walls should have been welded but on the other hand it is a lot of work and boring.
That adds a lot of verts and poly's if not done.

For a building it will probably pass as people are not really plopping 100 of them down :)

But the spawning stuff like trees/crops/scrubs just cannot have a lot of poly's each as thousands of those are spawned on a big map.
Add to that all the crops the players seed in farm fields, the trees, orchards and players with not to good systems are in for a crawl.


Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 13, 2017, 02:34:51 AM
Quote from: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 02:16:45 AM
BTW Red

You optimized quite a bit of your NMT buildings?


oh i did !!
they were at 10k poly on first attemps lol
last time they were 1-1.5k

but i know professionals would down those at 0,8k ^^
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 03:02:38 AM
What the professionals probably do is to create the building and then shuffle it over to his apprentice to do combining the vertices and weld them where needed :)

My first buildings also had about 4 to 5000 poly's. Sheesh, I was allready happy I could put something together instead of worrying about poly's in those days LOL

But I found ways to optimize a lot since then. My walls are not boxes anymore but just plains.

The roof I start as a box but with several connecting lines
Around the outside edges I shift the lines about half on the walls so the overhang still have a double plane if I am done.
Then I delete all the other faces on the inside so that part of the roof becomes a plane.

Some more faces (Connect lines)  are needed if you want to give the roof a curve.

The other benefit is besides saving some poly's is that the diagonal lines (Moire?) you see in the game if the faces are too close together is avoided for the biggest part of the roof :)

The build stage 2 I just Detach the wall planes, move them a bit to the inside from the other plane, flip the faces and have a double plane wall. then select the lines on top and bridge the cap. :)

If all is done I go inside the main mesh and delete all the inside faces of beams so they become a U as they are not visible anyway.

Most my buildings (Besides markets because the little round fruits/veggies etc. are adding up a bit and nothing can be do about that) are about 800 to 1200 poly's average.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 13, 2017, 04:20:56 AM
but how your roof and walls are casting shadows on the groud if doesnt have your internal plane ( if you delete them (specially the roof) ) ?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 05:28:38 AM
Everything I delete is inside the building so no shadows are casted there anyway.

That is why I leave the strip around the roof what overhangs from the walls with the double plane.

The shadow from village buildings where not cast right because there was a hole underneath the roof by the porch I forgot to close up.

When I put a plane there face down the building was closed up and the shadows were casted right.

Here a image of the boarding house while I did the optimizing. At the roof ends from the inside you see the double green lines as there the roof is still double plane but all the rest is just single plane inside the house. You can also see I deleted a lot of faces from all the beams.

Also good to see the wall plane where the windows are just three faces as I moved the vertices up and welded them together in the corners.
I missed two of them though. LOL
As long as everything is closed up it works.

If I would have put backface culling on in max we would not see much in this image as we would look right through it :)

Just over 2000 poly's for a big building (10x4) with curved roofs including the building stages.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_13_07_17_5_17_09.jpeg)

And here with back culling on.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_13_07_17_5_32_59.jpeg)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 13, 2017, 06:28:33 AM
@embx61  your test results are interesting.  When you test with added mods, I suggest you add 1mod first and try alone, New Flora.

On my first test map I had NF loaded before NatDiv, I had NF bees that spawned but no NatDiv branches.  I did not play long so don't know if it would have lagged or not.  Then I changed load order with NatDiv before New Flora and started map and story. I had the NatDiv branches but no New Flora spawning at all.  Having started the story I did not disable NF, I just left as is.  It wasn't long before I noticed lag especially when moving camera over trees or when it rained.  Speed improved when it snowed. That's why I suspected mods was the problem not my computer. Also had it been my computer, the lag would have worsened the more I built which it did not.   

Next I started a test map using same map, setting, and same mods except New Flora and there was no lag whatsoever.

I highly recommend modders take play breaks especially using their own mods.  With the games Heroes of Might and Magic, I can always tell if the map maker is also a game player or just a map maker. 

I'm going to start another test map, a large map with only NatDiv and see what happens.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 06:57:26 AM
Yes I will try New Flora first.

That some things not spawn depending on load order is possible.

Both mods are probably using the same files to edit. But it should not contribute to the lag problems either way unless there is a serious code flaw.

But the code is pretty straight forward in the spawning file.

Moving camera over trees is calculating all the vertices poly's of all the trees visible in the screen.
The more you zoom out the more is visible so the more the game have to draw all those poly's

I could see a slight drop in FPS while zooming out but that is understandable. I think even Vanilla FPS drops a bit on zoom out.

At the end of year 2 on zoom out 10x speed the FPS was hovering 42/45 FPS but there where 20million vertices and about 11 million poly's according to Debug.

Game plays as a modder is nice, but I don't have (take) the time to do it.
I do a fairly fast test in a test map and if it works I consider it ready. The rest is up to the play testers. :)
But even if we test on our systems it is possible it not work right on another system while it was working on ours.

That is why the big companies have BETA test sessions for their games. Lots of players can sign up and test the game and as a thank you they receive some goodies.

Later today I will load some mods one by one to test.

I probably do Flora first and then Maritimes Pine.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 13, 2017, 07:17:37 AM
2000 ? thats good. all my little new house have 1300-1500
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 13, 2017, 07:26:04 AM
I'm not sure if that is even possible... But what if the game is just "confused" by several mods, calling to one file? So as it tries to spawn NF (which was still activated), but that was blocked by NatDiv, and that caused lag? But that doesn't explain brads3's case.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on July 13, 2017, 08:01:52 AM
TANY,i think you are on to somethig there.i did try to disable 2 mods that the nat div should be overriding.the speed did pick up some.not a lot but some.i think there is several things causing the lags. what got me was when i tried it by itself and it looked slower than when i play with all my mods. i decided to try vanilla just to see how fast they were with no mods.i did try several tests.

intel I3-2100 cpu 310ghz 6 gig ram.intel graphics. it is an accer that has been refurbished and built up.i bought it from a computer guy who built it.if there is more info that could, help please ask,i can try to find it.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 13, 2017, 08:58:46 AM
New test results.  First, my laptop is also Acer.  I did 2 more test maps.  I started to disable a few mods but then decide to leave alone with New Flora still disabled but most other mods the same ones.  I used regular vanilla valley instead of plains map and built the same buildings on each test map.  First I did a large map (my gosh, all that room to build) there was a very slight slow down when moving the camera over map and trees and when it rained, very slight difference.  The second test I changed only the map size to small and there was no speed difference or lag at all, not even when it rained. 

The problem may be the combination of mods.  I have used New Flora many times with no problem whatsoever.   I used NMT and The North with other mods added with no problem or slow down at all.  This NatDiv & NF was the first time I used more than one starting spawner mod, I like variety and to pick and choose combos.

The only other thought I had was the possibility of latest game update causing compatibility problems with mods from older mod kits.

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 13, 2017, 09:49:57 AM
Thanks for running so many tests everyone! You're all being a huge help :). I'm not quick enough to respond to all the individual messages before the discussion moves on, so here's a summary of what I've gathered from the last pages:

- One source of the problem seems to simply be the polycount. Many new resources get added, this causes lags for some people.
- In winter the lags are less bad than in summer. This makes sense, since most of the natural resources lose parts of their mesh (leaves, flowers) in winter, and thus less polygons are displayed.
- There may be a compatibility problem with some older mods. If there is any, then this is either due to the game code, or because those mods have been made with a different version of the modkit.
- Another possibility is that the new behaviours (swaying of leaves and flowers) are causing problems. Constantly updating the position of the mesh probably requires more effort than just displaying a static mesh.

I'm currently working on a 'performance' version, where I will focus mainly on reducing the 'weight' of the mod in ways that don't require too much work. If that turns out to not be enough (or not effective because the problem comes from somewhere else), we'll see if there are any other possible courses of action.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: elemental on July 13, 2017, 03:27:41 PM
Does turning shadows off make any difference? I've noticed that something about the lighting has changed with the latest beta. There is moire on surfaces that never used to have any. During some parts of the year the shadows flickering along a surface almost look like a strobe light - and that's on speed one. It never used to be like that. Luke might have fiddled with some rendering settings or something.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 03:33:08 PM
@Bartender

I loaded tanny's new flora and took a look in the mod list at the yellow conflicting files.

I probably missed it but want to be sure.

Do you and tany shared some sources? I see in her mod Natural NatDiv stuff in animations.
They are yellow so that means that the one higher in the modlist will get loaded.

I loaded a complete empty large map with just Vanilla.

I zoomed all out on the place were the bannies start from.
Paused the game and wrote down the numbers.

Objects: 5528
Triangles: 293909
Vertices: 1245168
Batches: 387
FPS: 60

NATDIV Loaded, same as above, location were the bannies start from, zoom all the way out, pause the game.

Objects: 18692
Triangles: 6491505
Vertices: 11576562
Batches: 997
FPS: 60.

So it is clear that Nat Div loads a lot extra Poly's at the start of the game (About 22x more as Vanilla) not implying that this is the cause of the problems some players have as I still get 60 FPS :)

Now going to enable Flora and see what happens.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 04:26:17 PM
Messed around with New Flora loaded as well.
Crashed the first time when reloading but on my other save map it worked.

No real changes I notice so far.
It runs okay on my system and can zoom in/out without any real hickups.
On 10x speed all zoomed out I still get over 30FPS.

In the winter poly's drop quite a bit and as Bartender explained earlier is because lots of mesh parts have disappeared in the winter by design.

Some stuff of Flora does not seem to work (Flora loaded underneath NatDiv) it recognizes the food groups like veggies/fruits but if I select a huge area to collect flax the areas are not showing any red squares so flax/cerials are not there.
But as they probably make use of some of the same files this was to be expected.

I don't know what to say to some of those who have problems with lag with Flora and NatDiv Loaded.,
I don't see a difference in a half hour play session with all kinds of zoom over the map, playing with 1x to 10x speed (Besides some parts like flax are not working) in FPS.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: tanypredator on July 15, 2017, 01:17:04 PM
I've never noticed before that deers prefer to use bridges  :D
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 15, 2017, 07:53:51 PM
@embx61 I wonder - are you loading in this order (disregard Necora's mods, this is my standard load order).
In this instance the new sticks/logs that Bartender put in may not show, I'm not sure.
When I was playing the other week when it was came out, I played on a small map, 10x speed in debug mode and was just laying buildings out and watching how the food was being processed (so, building for the chain, rather than the game play - it makes sense to me).

I wasn't watching whether or not there were logs, and to be honest, with my eyes not great the last 3 weeks now, I can't tell much difference between some things, so not the person to ask if they are there.  :D

So - try this load order, and see what happens, if you will.  I'd be interested to see if it's the same as mine. 
I will try & load today with this exact same setting whilst I have hubby home, see if he can see the logs/sticks etc.
If anyone can post a screenshot please (i'm not being a smartarse about this, I'm genuine) about what I'm looking for, that would be superb, means I can try and focus him on what he needs to look for - he's never played before, and has no idea.  Haha!!

Thank you :D

Oh & @tanypredator aren't they sweet when they do that!!  :D
I love it too when they walk the yellow line around the hunters radius, it's hilarious!!  :D

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 15, 2017, 09:11:21 PM
@QueryEverything

You have the older version of NatDiv.

It should say version 1.1 and in description "This is the second installment".

I was not really testing game play but some players reported that New Flora and NatDiv together brought lag.

I did not experience that though although some stuff was not working because probably conflict or loadorder.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: QueryEverything on July 16, 2017, 02:31:27 AM
@embx61 it's an old screenshot, but the correct load order :)  I've got the correct mods loaded, just can't take a new screenshot of the load order at the moment.  :(  I need to update my FAQ files ;)

The load order is correct, to have both New Flora & NatDiv items show, rather than the other way - where New Flora doesn't show.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 16, 2017, 04:13:43 AM
Quote from: embx61 on July 13, 2017, 04:26:17 PM
Messed around with New Flora loaded as well.
Crashed the first time when reloading but on my other save map it worked.

No real changes I notice so far.
It runs okay on my system and can zoom in/out without any real hickups.
On 10x speed all zoomed out I still get over 30FPS.

In the winter poly's drop quite a bit and as Bartender explained earlier is because lots of mesh parts have disappeared in the winter by design.

Some stuff of Flora does not seem to work (Flora loaded underneath NatDiv) it recognizes the food groups like veggies/fruits but if I select a huge area to collect flax the areas are not showing any red squares so flax/cerials are not there.
But as they probably make use of some of the same files this was to be expected.

I don't know what to say to some of those who have problems with lag with Flora and NatDiv Loaded.,
I don't see a difference in a half hour play session with all kinds of zoom over the map, playing with 1x to 10x speed (Besides some parts like flax are not working) in FPS.

Thanks= you for the testing @embx61 ! I would say that all these tests together make it very likely for the amount of polygons to be the only issue. That's good, because it's something we can fix :).

Quote from: tanypredator on July 15, 2017, 01:17:04 PM
I've never noticed before that deers prefer to use bridges  :D
I've never seen that either :P, perhaps it's because of the reeds that this becomes the easiest path across for them.. It does happen often in nature actually that animals use bridges to cross rivers, sometimes they even manage to occupy new living areas because a bridge gets built.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 16, 2017, 10:24:02 AM
I agree @Bartender

If it was code wise, or just conflicting files of different mods all systems should suffer lag.

22x more polygons then Vanilla at map start is quite a lot added from the start and older systems (Mostly laptops with integrated Video Carts) are not up to it.
Even 1.5 Gigabyte CC not have that much at map start. I think most of the size from CC comes from the tons of textures they use as FBX's and the rsc. files are rather small.

I would try first to get rid of the spawning stones in the water just to see if that helps before cutting down on the grass.
As we agreed, it is not the poly count per grass tile, but the amount spawned on the map.
Players with older systems should play a small to medium map and not a big map as that brings the poly count down a lot of the bat.

Can always make the rocks in water decorative and let the players place them themselves if they want too.

If all else fails then go with a Light version where less grasses are spawned on the map but make up for it with the yield they give.

As you probably know In the Netherlands they made several bridges over highways to connect the natural habitats on both sides of the highways.

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_16_07_17_10_21_25.jpeg)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Abandoned on July 16, 2017, 11:08:13 AM
A reminder, my NatDiv ran fine as long as I didn't have New Flora activated with it.  New Flora loaded before NatDiv, no branches.  Loaded after, no New Flora spawners at all and terrible lag especially when raining even on a small map.  I would probably prefer Nat Div light with a few water rocks and those branches.  :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 16, 2017, 11:32:06 AM
wow there is still alot of forest left in that country !
i wouldnt never thought that !
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 16, 2017, 12:03:37 PM
In Holland?

O yes, it is a small country but one of the highest populated countries in the world.
About 17 million people live in a country about the size of 1/3 of Kentucky, USA.

My beloved wife could not believe it when I told her that when I first met her :)
Kentucky have about 4 million population and is about three time as big as Holland :)

But indeed there is still plenty of nature in Holland.
A area called "the Veluwe" is famous for it's many trees.

Holland had a sea inside the country. In 1933 they closed it off in the North with a Dike.

Later they developed so called Polders inside that then Lake and cities were build on that gathered land.
The city I lived before moving to the USA is called Lelystad and is named after Engineer Lely who developed a lot of the plans to make Holland save from the water.

About 1/3 of Holland is below sea level and the Dutch always had to fight against the water.
One of the reasons I think the Dutch are the best in building Levies/Dikes/land acclamations in the world.

The palm Islands by Dubai are created by a Dutch Company. They wanted to increase Rotterdam Harbor but they had a problem.
They could not go North, South and east because of towns and cities in that area so they decided to go into the sea instead :)

Maasvlakte 2 was ready to receive the biggest ships in the world about 2 or 3 years ago.

Another famous piece of Art is the "Maeslantkering" and was the last project of the so called "Deltawerken" which started in the 60's.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 16, 2017, 12:41:54 PM
i known that Netherland were below the sea level... i always asked myself they can feel secure to that ^^
specially with the sea levels will go alot higher in the next decades :P
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on July 16, 2017, 02:00:20 PM
Haha, everyone always thinks we'll be the first to drown :P. In fact, we've been battling the water for centuries, so if anyone is up to the challenge then it's us ;). I predict that in a 100 years, Belgium and Germany will have sunk, and we'll be living quite comfortably behind our huge dams. We'll then build new islands where our neighbours once lived, and call them 'the New Netherlands' ;D.

In all seriousness, they've built a few rather large dams near the coast after the last big flood we had (in 1953), and we've never had any such flooding since ;). All the dams, dikes and dunes that protect us are constantly monitored and kept in good shape. There's also a lot of Dutch companies with great expertise in these kind of things, so if it ever turns out that our current protection is not enough, we have the means and the capacity to improve it.

(http://www.holland.com/upload_mm/4/c/f/52779_fullimage_01_nederland%20waterland_deltawerken_golven%20bij%20oosterscheldekering_resized_492x307.jpg)

These companies are also being hired all over the world to help protect against the water as embx said, so we're helping others to survive the coming climate change too :).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Savidan on July 16, 2017, 02:33:27 PM
The only country with a department just to ensured water level ^^
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 16, 2017, 02:35:50 PM
so if the sea level go up 2 meter higher... you will able to make those dams go 2-3 meter higher ?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 16, 2017, 02:42:36 PM
They estimated that the dams can be breached by a storm surge what only occurs once in 10.000 years.

But they have the technology to increase height if needed.

But the Dutch came with something new.
The Dutch even have several large plots of land with low population assigned so if there is a breach most of the water what flows in the country will be directed to those plots of land after evacuation of people and animals is completed to minimize casualties and damage.

They just give temporarily some land back to the sea.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Savidan on July 16, 2017, 02:45:35 PM
That why we are used to see mills associate with the netherlands. Not becaused mills were done for crops, but because mills were done to evacuate waters to earn land over the sea.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 16, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
yes, a lot of windmills were build to regulate the groundwater level at low lands.
Now of course most are replaced by Turbines and many mills have been broken down.
But still there are quite a few windmills left and are on the Historical Buildings List so cannot be tempered with.

Most are tourist attractions.
But some are still used to regulate the groundwater level.
Famous are the windmills at the Dutch town of "Kinderdijk" in the Netherlands.
Several Mills are lined up to get the water out of the Polder into the channels just outside it.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 20, 2017, 04:01:22 AM
A bit bored so a bit more about Rotterdam Harbor and the fight against the sea by the Dutch. :)

Below a image of Google maps with the new section of the Rotterdam Harbor "Maasvlakte 2"

Everything west of the 2 most west yellow blocks with N15 in them is new and build in the sea. the sand what was brought in from the North Sea bottom miles out with so called zuighopper ships and was sprayed with guidance of GPS to form the islands. Then a so called "blokkendam" a dam make of huge concrete blocks was put in place at the north side to protect against the sea.

The firm who did the construction (PUMA which is for this project several firms under one name) stayed so far under budget and project time table.
They are now in the process of constructing the Terminals.

About 3/4 right in the middle of the image you can see the two giant white arms of the "Measlantkering" in the river "Nieuwe Waterweg" (what stands for New Waterway) close to the yellow block N223 which was the last project and now the "Deltawerken" are done besides monitoring and maintenance.

At the "Maeslant kering" it is a computer which decide when to close it. No humans are involved. I think they closed the Maeslantkering only twice for testing purposes by humans.
It was a contest among architects and engineer firms to submit a design to close the "Nieuwe waterweg" in the event of a storm surge and this design won and several engineers in the world were not sure this design could work but the Dutch pulled it off. :)

(http://worldofbanished.com/gallery/474_20_07_17_3_38_41.jpeg)

Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on July 20, 2017, 04:32:03 AM
î can say thses people are genius engeneers
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: embx61 on July 20, 2017, 04:58:41 AM
The link provides the progress in some images of spraying the sand to form the new land win which started in January 2009 from the air :)

Lots of more information in English on that site about the new Harbor. Interesting is also how the Dutch build the Quay walls by digging trenches and using Bentonite so no formwork was needed. :)

https://www.maasvlakte2.com/en/index/show/id/407/follow-the-progress-from-the-air (https://www.maasvlakte2.com/en/index/show/id/407/follow-the-progress-from-the-air)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: qubesquared on August 15, 2017, 01:23:37 PM
First of all, awesome mod. I just got into Banished and this is mod is amazing. However, I noticed a few times within the thread that you were looking into a solution where NatDiv can be used with the CC starting conditions. Have you figured out a solution yet? Is this something that is still on the things to do?
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on August 16, 2017, 12:48:30 PM
Hi @qubesquared, thank you for your kind words :). I'm not aware of any possible way in which we could make our mod compatible with the CC starting conditions unfortunately :(. I might look into it a bit more at some point when we continue development. @despo_20 and I are both currently enjoying some well earned holidays and occupying ourselves with other things than modding, but after the summer ends we'll be back in full force ;).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on August 16, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
Quote from: Bartender on August 16, 2017, 12:48:30 PM
@despo_20 and I are both currently enjoying some well earned holidays and occupying ourselves with other things than modding, but after the summer ends we'll be back in full force ;).

i hope you enjoy your vacations :)
vacations from time to time are a must :) it always help to fill the cup :)
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: qubesquared on August 16, 2017, 02:15:26 PM
Quote from: Bartender on August 16, 2017, 12:48:30 PM
Hi @qubesquared, thank you for your kind words :) . I'm not aware of any possible way in which we could make our mod compatible with the CC starting conditions unfortunately :( . I might look into it a bit more at some point when we continue development. @despo_20 and I are both currently enjoying some well earned holidays and occupying ourselves with other things than modding, but after the summer ends we'll be back in full force ;) .

Thank you for update. I hope you enjoy your much needed vacation. Will this version work with The North mod by Tom? If not is this version of Lite: http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/175-natural-diversity-light/ (http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/175-natural-diversity-light/) the most resent? I really love the grass, reeds, and thatch incorporation of this mod. 
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Bartender on August 19, 2017, 01:30:07 AM
Compatibility with the North has the same problem as CC; it won't work with other Start Conditions than the one that NatDiv provides. This is because of the way that start conditions are programmed, and unfortunately I don't think there's any way to fix that without merging mods completely.

The Light version you link to is the most recent indeed, but once this new version of the full mod gets out of beta we will release a new light version as well :).
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: child_of_air on May 18, 2018, 01:33:11 AM
Sorry for bumping this thread, but I have been playing with this quite a bit and wanted to give you some feedback. Are you still working on this?

I really love what you've done here. The new models and the new resources really add a lot more to the game. However, on a hard start in the middle of winter, it's very difficult to get your bannies food, shelter and warmth before the first frost sets in. Your mod complicates matters significantly- it took me five tries before I could move on with only minimal deaths from starvation. I really think that you need to add additional food or additional firewood to the carts on a hard setting- the food I was given was just not enough to sustain my 18 bannies before they were able to build their first food building, due to the extra steps it took.

Please consider adding additional food to the cart. I know it's supposed to be hard, but your mod makes it too hard for my tastes. Other than that, I love it. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Voeille on May 18, 2018, 02:07:42 AM
@child_of_air
I use this mod and I've never encountered such problems. What is your starting food? For all I remember I have 200 for Adam & Eve and 1200 for the rest. And, if you run into food problems, the first thing you should do before building anything is collect forest food with your labourers (just like stone or wood). To be able to do that, you need either CC, New Flora, or Busy Laborers.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on May 18, 2018, 06:36:26 AM
you might add TOM's quickhunter to help with food. they are easy to place since you don't need to build anything and can be moved with the deer.yjose are handy for starting games to get a boost of food.there is also a quic fisherman. you can build different houses etc,so you need less thatch to get the initial construction done.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: child_of_air on May 18, 2018, 11:33:06 PM
I do actually have them forage for food, but when there are only 7 or 8 adults (I'm using Natural Diversity Hard), the process isn't very quick, and they seem to consume it almost as soon as they get it.

I have been using a hunting lodge from one of Kid's sets, because it's very easy to place and you don't need the thatch. But that's just a work around, I was hoping for a better solution.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: Voeille on May 19, 2018, 05:24:12 AM
That's really strange, for me it's always enough, and with the Adam & Eve start it builds up a lot because 2 people don't eat that much. Do you have any mods that alter food consumption? Default is 100 food per citizen per year, so the starting 1200 food should be enough for 12 people for the whole year, which is plenty of time to accumulate more.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: child_of_air on May 21, 2018, 12:07:26 AM
Nat Div Hard usually starts with 14-19 people. My last starts I had 19, 18 and 14. So perhaps those extra few people are really making the difference. Indeed, I believe they are because when I get starvation, about 3-6 people typically die, mostly children. :(

And yes, you start out with 1200 food.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on May 21, 2018, 03:14:28 AM
if i start with 12-13 people, i only setup 2-3 crops at start. but if i start between 18-21 people, i need to put a full 4 crops
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: child_of_air on May 23, 2018, 11:33:09 PM
Hard starts with zero seeds or animals. Oh well, I guess she is no longer working on this mod.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on May 24, 2018, 12:56:44 AM
Quote from: child_of_air on May 23, 2018, 11:33:09 PM
Oh well, I guess she is no longer working on this mod.

if you talk of Bartender :
He.

if you talk about embx61:
He.
and the picture of the avatar , she was his beloved wife that left this world and broke his heart.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: child_of_air on September 06, 2018, 04:44:02 AM
Fair enough. Does anyone know if he is still working on this mod? I love the models for the new buildings, very beautiful and the quality is SO high. However, I'm having an issue with the Reaper, I can't get him to reap or plant anything. I tried testing this out and waiting about 20 years.....there was still no grass, and nobody actually showed up to do the planting or reaping. The planting button just stayed blacked out after I pushed it.
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: RedKetchup on September 06, 2018, 07:59:54 AM
i doubt, last time Bartender came here was : February 16, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
Title: Re: WIP: Natural Diversity
Post by: brads3 on September 06, 2018, 10:42:24 AM
very few players can get the new version to run without sow down and lags. do you have any grass on the map? it should be growing all over and you should have a mix of forests and meadow areas.the reaper should act like a forester but grow grass instead of trees.

       this mod and the grass should work with about any other mod except the RK. the RK changes the grass from thatch to fodder and adds flowers. even then the reaper shed should grow the thatch grass. i have not tested the RK with the new Nat Div since it slows my computer.i would assume the other sheds will bundle fodder and use it as thatch.RED was able to use BARTENDERS codes to change the thatch to fodder.the game is realy good at interchanging them.

          i would double check the version you have to make sure you aren't using a lite version.don't use 2 versions at the same time. it has been a long time since reading on this mod.but it is possable the lite version adds the food plants only and not the grass.the reaper will take time to plant grass and clear stones and trees,but you should see some grass in a few seasons.

      mod order does matter to this mod to get the grass at start or all over the map. however,it shoud not cause the reaper not to plant the grass. i find it highhly unusual for the reaper "plant" button to be stuck.that tellls me you have some weird glitch.how many other mods and what odd mod could you have messing with it? open the mod list,click the mimize icon on the Nat Div mod.it will show a list of mods that are conflicting.  move the Nat Div above all of them. if you have the pine mod,put it and its patches above the Nat div.

       after all that,the only thng left would be to try different start settings to see if it matters.