World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: Nilla on May 06, 2017, 02:18:50 AM

Title: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 06, 2017, 02:18:50 AM
I was a bit absent from this page and from playing Banished lately. From time to time something called "life" strikes you but anyhow, I have started a new game. I just haven't written about it. I will now.

The Town's name is Ambril. I only have 2 mods loaded: The latest versions of the North ( @Tom Sawyer) and the Jetty and Bridges ( @Discrepancy). Maybe I will add some more along the way.

First I have a request to Tom: I would like to have an unpainted version of the medium barn. It looks a bit odd, if the people can't afford to paint their houses, but they have a red barn, that also has larger windows than the house. The new small storage in the same style as the new houses are nice but really small. I have doubled them on each spot but can't do without any larger storage for long. The first picture shows an impression of the village. I've put the red barn a bit away from the houses, but I would have preferred an unpainted variation. (without or with only very small windows)

I have tested the jetty trading port. It doesn't work on the lake. I have tried it in three positions. Each would have worked in my last game. It seems to have been changed somehow. I haven't tried it on the river, yet (too far away from the village so far) but I find, it's the great thing with this port; the possibility to place it on various locations. It would be a pity, if it wasn't possible. The second picture shows one position that doesn't work. The merchant passes, without stopping at the port.

I've built a few new jetty buildings; the fishdryer (I wasn't sure that it would use salmon, but it does) and also the mollusks farm. When people walk from this farm to the storage, they fall into the water and it's not possible to build a corner part (red footprint on the third picture). Is it possible to make a ghosted version? The production of these buildings are less than a fisher but still in a reasonable range.

The third picture also shows my storage. As always in the North; there's a lot of salmon. To my surprise i also have a lot of iron ore. Have you changed anything here @Tom Sawyer?
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: QueryEverything on May 06, 2017, 02:53:38 AM
I've been playing with the new release of the Jetty mod, and haven't had a problem with the trader, directly on the river - so it may just be a lake 'quirk'.  :(

I've also used the mollusc farm  and haven't noticed any issues, I was going to build a bridge across to the other land mass, I think I will do so from the corner, the same one you are having problems with, and see if the Bannies do the same thing.  :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Discrepancy on May 06, 2017, 03:15:11 AM
@QueryEverything, Nilla is using the alternative version made for the North that doesn't have the new flags and the Merchants Office, it is only available from a post I made in The North forum page.

@Nilla, I am yet to build a trade port. I haven't actually played the town since I posted. I will try it now, and look at the code to see why.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: QueryEverything on May 06, 2017, 03:21:59 AM
Oh, yes - I remember seeing that and making note of it  (btw, do you want me to add it to my list I'm doing for the workbook @Discrepancy ??); I completely didn't register that @Nilla may be using it...  oopsies! 
I will still check on the mollusc walking though ;)  No harm :D
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 06, 2017, 04:02:29 AM
I make a bigger storage building for the log cabins. Then we have two sizes for old times. The red barns are more suitable for the cottages. Ore output is increased yes, to avoid early game tool crisis on plain maps and to balance gold from mines which is not in game yet. It was 8/6 and now 16/12 but I already have reduced it to 12/9 while playing around with this version. It should be still a feeling to be keen on new ore spots.

And if the boats don't find the trading post then it is such a lake quirk as Query says. It can happen on maps with large lakes if the port is too far away from the route. Not cool for your people. But the jetty mod is not the culprit.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 06, 2017, 04:54:19 AM
@Nilla good to see wise Nordic woman has returned North  :) , am thinking of going there myself, now eager to try newest version, I am glad it is for 1.0.6.  I was going to post and ask you if you had plans to start map.  One of us would have to all the great statistics and production numbers, you know me, always looking at the scenery.  Glad there is an alternative to jetty and bridges also. I'll be along in a couple of days I hope, I have some file work to do first.  New additions to the North look really good.

edit: nilla, what start condition did you use ?
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 07, 2017, 02:40:33 AM
I'm sorry I was a bit careless, telling you which mods I'm using. Yes, @Discrepancy is right, I'm using the version of the Jetty and Bridges without the Merchants Office. The Game crashed with the "normal" version together with the North. So he was kind enough, to make a separate version. :) It's unlikely to me, that the behaviour of the merchants has anything to do with this, but maybe it does. What do I understand about modding?. In any case, the vanilla trading ports on the lake work perfectly fine, so there is something with the Jetty Ports, that are different; that prevent the merchants from stopping. I haven't tried to build it in any other location but I will, when the settlement reaches the river. Yes, and I also loaded one more mod: Kid's Forest outpost. The reason was, that you can't build a Nordic School from the start, it needs brick and a school, that looks like the vanilla building, doesn't fit in my Nordic world. We've never had schools that look like that. The simple interim roof from the Forest outpost fits better for the start.

The wise old Nordic woman was also careless, not telling you the settings: Medium size, Lakeland 18672168, harsh climate, survivors, disasters on.

I have tried some of the new buildings. The trapper is very profitable; I have had production of more than 150, (furs worth 24) the average maybe a little less. It variates a lot (maybe because I take every nomad and they mess up the production numbers). In any case, the annual profit is very high >3000. Alright, the area is huge, so you can't "spam" them and you will probably not have many "perfect" areas either. But it's the other way around, if you want to make coats from the furs. That's not a very good business (input 3*24, output 80). Not much use to make coats for export, not every coat will go into the port, so in real, it would be a loss. You usually have some thoughts, when you set your production numbers @Tom Sawyer, what are your thoughts about fur/fur coats?

I would very much like to build the lovely looking bank. But I don't really want to build it as some kind of "useless" monument. So far, I have no use for a bank. I never have more than a few spare coins on rare occasions. I've doubled the trading ports but it's still the same. I want to keep enough coins in the ports, to buy what I want, when a merchant arrive, at the moment 100 daler and 100 penning. It looks like the merchants bring the same amount of coins, as they did in your last version of the North. We have discussed this before and I think, if you really want to make the bank useful, they should bring more coins. Now, I can always "buy" every coin and still have trading goods left. Maybe it will change as the settlement grows and the boats bring more coins and I suppose, that the bank is more a late game building, so we will see, how it will turn out later.

Two more small things that occurred to me: the nice little church can only be built once. At the moment I don't want more than this one but on a large map, maybe it would be nice to be able to build more chapels. Could there be trouble with nomads? I've never built two nomad attractors exactly the same but I have had several different nomad attractors and they work fine together. It also seems that the number of nomads is low. So far it's always only 2 of them and my settlement has passed 100 inhabitants. The second thing is the wooden well; it only needs a few logs to be built. I find it too cheap compared to the vanilla well. A well has to have a part of stones beneath the ground, that you don't see. I suggest, that this one also need some stone, but a bit less than the other.

One thing to the Jetty buildings: The market contains all kind of material, like wool, ore, charcoal, that you don't need there out on the jetties. If you don't have plans for jetty blacksmiths, tailors and other production buildings, that use these materials, I would suggest that you think a bit about, what this market should contain. As it is now, it has only disadvantages; it take space, the vendors have to spend time carrying these things you don't need there and the material is missing somewhere else. (First picture)

Second picture

My village center. I like the look very much. The different buildings fit good together. It´s nice, that the "old" houses are lower, than the "new". How much better heat economy has the red houses compared to the brown? There´s also a free space on the other side of the road from the school. I will keep it free, and see if I ever can use a bank.

But look at the background!  :( You know what I mean @Tom Sawyer! ;)


Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 07, 2017, 04:41:53 AM
@Nilla , I see buildings there with grass roofs, very nice.  thank you for starting info, we play different so I will go a different route and leave the jetty building to you, forest outpost a starting must for me also.  The nomad lamp post numbers must be set the same as kid's well that bring only a few each year to start, the numbers do go up with time, no flood of nomads before you can feed them.  If it allows to be able to build more than one, it must be okay I think. I am looking forward to another trip North, I have a lot of notes from wise Nordic woman's advice.  :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 07, 2017, 11:01:53 AM
Then I was wrong with the lake as cause for passing merchants @Nilla. Can it be that there was too much built around the jetty port and blocks it? But I have no clue.

Trappers are profitable, yes. And of course they have to be in a Nordic theme. But as you said they need a large hunting ground with old natural forest to get such an amount of fur. Especially in early game when your people reach the new untouched land. If you are starting your forestry it will decrease and if you are totally overworking your forest for maximum wood production then fur animals will almost disappear. So with a growing settlement the trappers will lose their importance but it's also up to the player.

Fur is an export good in the North. Secondary you can make warm coats from it for your own people. To sell the coats is also possible of course and brings a similar profit like other coats. But I want to create a fur trading for the right atmosphere. This I had in mind.

The bank I actually wanted to include with new flags and when precious metals come in game. But I have finished the model and it already works for coins. It is rather a building for a bigger settlement and I'm curious if you will use it one day. The amount of money is increased but it also depends on the number of trading posts and of your success. Nilla always rocks the map in a way that too much resources are stocked. ;)

We already talked about the new old well and it will get some stone as well.^^

The wooden chapel attracts a couple per year or even more. That can be a lot. For more nomads you can build a village (vanilla) church which attracts in addition. I plan to add more churches in this row of unique buildings with increasing costs. Spamming cheap chapels for nomads I would like to avoid.

Thank you very much for your reports. And I really like the combination of the jetty buildings with my landscape. I will look at it in game too. Probably there is something to make it work in the North.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: QueryEverything on May 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
I'm sorry I was a bit careless, telling you which mods I'm using. Yes, @Discrepancy is right, I'm using the version of the Jetty and Bridges without the Merchants Office.
{snip}

Not at all careless @Nilla you add so much to your blogs that sometimes I overlook things, and that one was on me (no arguments), thank you for updating the information though.  :D
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 09, 2017, 04:34:22 AM
@Nilla , I see buildings there with grass roofs, very nice.  thank you for starting info, we play different so I will go a different route and leave the jetty building to you, forest outpost a starting must for me also.  The nomad lamp post numbers must be set the same as kid's well that bring only a few each year to start, the numbers do go up with time, no flood of nomads before you can feed them.  If it allows to be able to build more than one, it must be okay I think. I am looking forward to another trip North, I have a lot of notes from wise Nordic woman's advice.  :)

Yes, I like the look of these old fashioned houses with grass roofs and wooden roofs, too. And it's not a nomad lamp, it's the small chapel, that attracts nomads. My settlement has now grown to almost 200 inhabitants. Each year 1 or 2 nomad families arrive; between 2 and 8 people. I don't see nomads as a "reward", that you somehow must prevent people from getting. I see them more as an obstacle; if you play well, you can take some, and get a fast growth but a normal growth of a settlement; building a house for every adult girl as soon as possible, is much better. I didn't really want the possibility to take more nomads later in the game, as I asked for a possibility to build more chapels. The way I use to play, nomads mid game are totally useless; some time along the way, I can't/will not build houses as soon as a girl gets educated. New nomads would delay it even more, not bring any growth at all, just decrease the education rate. I meant, it would just be nice to have this little church in a second village center. The large vanilla is too "unscandinavian" for me.

Good to know about the trappers. It will be a good idea, to build one in areas not developed yet. I do have a strange problem with them. From time to time the sign pops up, that the limit has been reached. It appears on all 3 trappers at the same time. I have increased all limits to 999999, but nothing changes. Then after ½year or something like that, for some reason, I don't understand, the sign disappears and the trappers work normally again, after ½ year it appears again. Weird!

It's OK, that furs is an excellent trading good, and fur coats not, but the profit of fur coats are much less than other coats As example; Fur Coats; input 3*24=72, output 80, profit 8 or10%, Nordic Coats: input 3*12=36, output 56, profit 20 or 35%. Maybe you could change the "recipe"; that 2 furs gives 1 coat. That would even the numbers. But it's not a big thing, I can live with it the way it is.

I'm starting to get a few spare coins; (I have built 4 trading ports, normally too many but I will try too accumulate coins) I could even sell all of my "high price goods" once, so it looks brighter for the use of a bank. :) If I understand it right; it's a pure storage. It doesn't bring any profit, like intrest on the money.

First picture

I don't really understand the difference between the Driftwood Seacher and Driftwood Collector, except that you can choose the things he finds. It says, that the output of the Seacher is lower, but I see no big difference. Last year 2 searcher collected 180 logs and 2 collector 90 of each logs and firewood. There is a very small log storage, that can be built on the jetty. That's good, but it could be a bit bigger, it gets full in 1/3 year with one driftwood searcher! But where should the firewood be put? It could be a good idea to locate a jetty firewoodcutter close to the driftwoodcollector, but I haven't found any firewood storage (except the market but you don't always want a big market close).

Second picture


The merchant touches the port on his way, but refuses to stop. I have just built a new one on the blue marked spot on the river. I'll let you know, if it works.

Third picture

The weird limit sign on the trapper.

A bad omen! The small chapel burned! Do we have a pyroman in this village? The fire didn't start at the chapel but in the house next to it. In my village there was a very old, very beautiful medieval wooden church, similar to this. It was torched by a crazy man some years ago! I didn't want to recapitulate that in Banished. :(

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 09, 2017, 04:59:03 AM
@Nilla I agree nomad taking is tricky and sometimes hard decision, extra workers early vs education. I also think a non nomad version of the church is a good idea, like kid's mission mod has.  Hopefully church fire not an omen of things to come.  The jetty building is coming along nicely, I like the driftwood = firewood.

I hope to be starting North map soon, only have basic idea and still considering mods to use.  See you soon in the North :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: RedKetchup on May 09, 2017, 06:15:56 AM
Bad citizens ! Bad citizens !!

 :P
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 10, 2017, 02:57:23 AM
It seems the wooden Chapel burns very well. My next chapel will something from stone. I found a nice photo. I can make the wooden chapel standalone without function to place it in addition as you like. But was it really Nilla who is asking for a decorative version of it? ;D
 
At the trapper you found a bug. There is a textile flag in it which makes them follow the coins instead of materials. Your trappers were stopping when you had 200 or more coins in barns. It will be fixed in 5.1 which I will upload next days. In your current game you can increase the coin limit in your village hall. It's not in the limit tool because useless (normally).

The profit of 8 is indeed a bit small for the fur coat in comparison to 20 for a nordic coat. I will adjust it.

The bank is a storage location, yes. There is no profit generated. At least not directly. If the fire had hit your barn or trading post instead of your chapel then it would have been a kind of profit in the bank.

And I don't wonder why you are "swimming" in logs. They are growing in this lake. ;)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 10, 2017, 05:57:54 AM
@Nilla good job so far.  I am glad I did not get starting yet, will wait for update.  I have town name and most mods decided on but not much more done.  I am wondering @Tom Sawyer if the mod My Precious from cc BL site is compatible.  I would place it after the North.  I am looking forward to trip North.  :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 10, 2017, 06:57:49 AM
I have tested the My Precious mod and it works @Abandoned. No conflict and green in your mod list. All the stuff is flagged as textile. That means you can use the coin limit for production, it will be brought by export merchants together with nordic coins and it will be stored in the nordic bank.

I cannot say how much the purchasing power of merchants will decrease with this mod. They will bring a lot of junk like diamonds (worth 6) instead of dalers (worth 100) but maybe the amount is high enough to compensate it. You will find out. :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Gatherer on May 10, 2017, 09:04:15 AM
@Abandoned I have used My Precious mod in my last town and I wish I had not. I've built 4 mines and filled them with 6-8 workers each and was producing ~50 gold nuggets per mine every year. So fas so good if only the toolsmiths would produce enough coins. But 1 gold nugget only gives 1 coin worth 12 trade value. Plus the toolsmith building is too big for only 2 workers.

For a small starter town it's not so bad. On the other hand minting coins on your own should be reserved for when you have a big and fully developed town in mid-to-late game in my opinion.

Now if there's been an update for this mod I don't know. Maybe the numbers have been fixed.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 10, 2017, 09:41:03 AM
I can make the wooden chapel standalone without function to place it in addition as you like. But was it really Nilla who is asking for a decorative version of it? ;D

Yes I was! I'm not sure, that I would use it much myself. But because I don't have the skill to build these nice towns myself, I don't lack the ability to understand people who can. ;)

 
At the trapper you found a bug. There is a textile flag in it which makes them follow the coins instead of materials. Your trappers were stopping when you had 200 or more coins in barns. It will be fixed in 5.1 which I will upload next days. In your current game you can increase the coin limit in your village hall. It's not in the limit tool because useless (normally).

OK, that explains the weird behaviour. I'm glad you found the reason and my game could help a bit. It did occur just as I could save a few daler. So, I did build a bank. Really not much of use, because things changed. I had to buy some more grain and vegetables and the export merchant weren't always rich enough, to buy all my stuff, so the bank normally looks like the second picture.  :(

 
And I don't wonder why you are "swimming" in logs. They are growing in this lake. ;)

Yes! It's not as weird as it looks. In fact quite logical, in a lake like that. I don't know, if you're familiar with, how logs were transported from the big forests to the saws and papermills at the coast 100, 200 years ago as the industrial revolution arrived to north Scandinavia. They were transported on the rivers, carried by the stream. It took time but worked well. Workers followed the logs to make sure, that everything went well; log floater, if Google is right. It was a pretty dangerous job, as far as I know. They had to balance on the logs out on the cold river. But they couldn't be everywhere, of cause the one or other log went missing, especially if the river passed a lake like this. So if you search for it, you will find a lot of logs. It's real logs, not firewood. So the log option is the right on this location.

Maybe the output is a bit high of the driftwood searcher compared to foresters, that need a lot of space. But on the other hand, my opinion is, that vanilla foresters are too unproductive, compared to other professions. Here in the North it's a bit different, because logs are more valuable. But in a normal game, with vanilla values 100 logs for one worker, is rather too low, than to high. So I think the actual production numbers are as reasonable as they can be.

I have one more question to these Driftwood collector/searcher; The menu says, that it has to be at least 2 workers. What does it mean? I thought it wouldn't work with only one. But it does. You can't change the number of workers but it work with only one. I didn't ran it long, so I don't know how much less logs are collected.

They will bring a lot of junk like diamonds
;D :D

And yes, like @Gatherer  I can remember I tried that My Precious mod, for quite some time, and the production numbers were ridiculous. It's been a while, so it might have been changed. But it's better to send the people fishing, than to the goldmines. Nicer, less dangerous work and much, much more profitable! ;)

First picture

It took some time but finally a merchant arrived to the jetty port, decently built on the river. Do you use the CC-merchants, @Discrepancy?  :-\

Second picture.

The bank is nice, But I'm sorry to say; this is a typical picture.  :( But I shouldn't complain too much; my trappers work again. ;) Honestly, if you play on harsh, I don't think there will not be possible to save much coins; you have to buy too much expensive food, if you want a healthy population. On mild with better farming, it would work. But on the other hand, to what use will you save a lot of coins? When you don't have to buy anything?

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 10, 2017, 12:31:06 PM
@Tom Sawyer thank you for info on compatibility, I was not sure if My Precious would work with the North, glad to here it will?

@Gatherer I have used the My Precious mod before in Mountain Mines story #8 and did find the mine production to be low (thanks for reminding me of that) but when using the production chain for jewelry or statues it was profitable.  I have the old version with the jade quarry.  However, I am thinking more in terms of the story line I have in mind than profit at this point, maybe not such a good plan for the North but we will see.

@Nilla your logging info takes me right back to the start of Smallville if you recall loggers jammed up the river trying to get logs to built a railroad downriver, some died others abandoned the town.  I am anxious to see how my next expedition does in the North, yours seems to be going quite well.  :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 12, 2017, 02:35:35 AM
Yes @Abandoned , it's going well. I can even store a few coins in my bank. :) It is possible also on harsh climate, but I'm pushing the trade hard; 5 TP for some 300 inhabitants. That's not really an agreeable way of playing.

There's one new building, I haven't said anything about, yet. That's the small diary hut. To work well, it need a lot of milk and I only have the normal cows. (I think there are mods with cows that gives more milk but less meat.) One big pasture isn't enough to keep the diary running all the time. The production seems to be in a reasonable range, quite good, if you have enough milk and the building looks sweet together with the old houses. You can build an old fashioned "fäbod". ;)

Now I understand what a "derelict jetty building" means.  :( I saw it in the description of the Driftwood Gatherer, but didn't really understand it. My first 2 buildings of this kind stopped producing. I don't mind. They have gathered all driftwood in that area, time to move on. Seems logical to me. But you can't demolish the building. I tried and it caused a great deal of trouble, the way I had built it; people can't pass there anymore and unfortunately across the (former) Driftwood Collector was the only way, to get to a few houses, fisher.......... I can understand, that mines and quarries leave traces, that they can't be entirely removed. But a wooden building? Makes no sense to me.

First picture

Sweet little Nordic impression. Diary hut i center.

Second picture

Demolished driftwood collector (red circle). Before I built the blue marked jetty, the only way to get to the houses and fisher behind, was across the now half demolished building. That's the reason tor the trouble. Advice: Don't demolish any of the buildings, that stopped producing. Another advice to @Discrepancy: Let the building material be the last collected driftwood; please make these buildings possible to demolish. ;)  :-\

Third picture

An over-all-look at the jetty part of the settlement. The long jetty in the middle of the lake looks a bit weird, but the builders are busy, building a market on the empty spot. It takes a bit longer, than the jetties. I had plans to connect the two jetty villages, but I think I will leave this settlement.

The graph shows the content in my bank! Not bad. I also now have 300 daler in each port. I need it when a merchant arrives with a lot of grain. With all these ports, I don't have to order any food. The small jetty port is different from the other. It has the "good" CC merchants, could hold a lot of goods, more than the vanilla and the merchants bring a lot of goods. You can sell all your stuff to the high price. For the North, it takes away the meaning of the coins.

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Discrepancy on May 12, 2017, 02:50:39 AM
Okay next update I will make them removable... my issue with this was that we could just rebuild one in the same spot... oh well, it is just a game. I could just make it upgrade into something else I suppose.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 12, 2017, 05:33:12 AM
@Nilla did the update work on your saved game or must you restart such a nice town?  Regarding milk cows, both Kid and Red have mods of separate cows, black & white or red & white.  I am thinking Tom has included Red's NMT compatible cows in the North mod.  On test maps that kept freezing up I had kid's black & white cows.  When I saw the small dairy hut, I took out Kid's cows.  I also took out a few other mods and then test map stopped freezing and I got red & white milk cows.  So I started a new map and if beginning goes well I'll be good to go.  :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Paeng on May 12, 2017, 06:25:49 AM
Okay next update I will make them removable... my issue with this was that we could just rebuild one in the same spot...

yeah... my idea was to make the slower "searcher" into a 'derelict' house (build farther away from settlements), but maintain the "collector"... or upgrade him to a regular gatherer or such...

Having both turn derelict is a bit wasteful  ;)

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 12, 2017, 06:47:52 AM

yeah... my idea was to make the slower "searcher" indo a 'derelict' house, but maintain the "collector"... or upgrade him to a regular gatherer or such...

Having both turn derelict is a bit wasteful  ;)

First, the are both similar fast; the annual production seemed to be more or less the same. I also built one of each, shortly after eachother and they both went empty at about the same time.

Second, your suggestion seems very odd to me @Paeng . If you're searching for wood in a slow way, you can go on much longer before your lake is "overfished", but if you're doing it fast, sooner or later, there will be no more wood to find. If one of these building should be derelict, than the faster: A punishment for "overfishing".  But as I said, I find it weird, that it's not possible to demolish a building made of wood.

I can understand your concern @Discrepancy, that it's too easy to rebuild one on the same spot. But at least, it take some time and cost some materials. An upgrade? Yes maybe. If we think this way. The close driftwood is all collected, but the collector has a skill in his profession. If he gets a boat and some equipment, he could go further and find more wood. That would make sense.

I haven't tried to upgrade @Abandoned. I like this town too, but a new start makes a lot of fun. And I can guess, that there will be some problem, if I upgraded, so I will start a new one. Maybe I will load some other mods; better milkcows and maybe some other.

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Paeng on May 12, 2017, 07:01:04 AM
Yeah well, all that realism again... LOL  ;)

I just find the idea of having an occasional ruined building in the boonies rather charming...  :)
Once you know the "mechanics", you can build them a bit out of the way...
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 12, 2017, 07:13:53 AM
What is, if someone will create a decorative ruin, just for you @Paeng? No practicle use, just looking charming!  ;) ;D

Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 13, 2017, 01:07:04 AM
I updated the latest version of the North to this game. It worked.......... for a while. Then it crashed, as I thought it would.

In any case I had a chance to look at the new Achievements. Well, they are no big challenge!  In fact, you only have to set one footprint of a building, to get one. But I guess/hope it's just the start. Now when you've found out how you can make it @Tom Sawyer , maybe there will come some more interesting thing.

I almost forgot; I took a look at the new looking medium barn; at least as footprint (I don´t think it got built). Very nice. :)
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 13, 2017, 03:49:29 AM
In fact, you only have to set one footprint of a building, to get one.

UFF! You have destroyed my day. At first glance I cannot see a way to solve this.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 14, 2017, 02:01:09 AM
Sorry!  :-[
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 16, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
I tried something with upgrade buttons to make the icons visible after finishing the buildings but as always with the nonexistent upgrade function in Banished it doesn't really work. We need an upgrade option where nothing is demolished or at least no materials appear and block the building site. So good bye, achievement toolbar. Frustrating but I'm glad you found this problem so quickly @Nilla.
Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: embx61 on May 16, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
Don't let it discourage you @Tom Sawyer.

It was a very good attempt to add something nice to the game.
While some modders still discover new things in the code what works some things will just never work unless Luke make changed to the C++ code.

I for one admire what you tried to do with the achievement system.


Title: Re: Ambril - Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 17, 2017, 12:43:52 AM
I like the idea very much, as well. Sorry, that it doesn´t work.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 18, 2017, 04:37:33 AM
I started a new Nordic game the other night, a town with the weird name Kismethportuna. I haven't played much, so there haven't been much to report. Primary I wanted to test two things: DS Advanced Blast Furnace in the North and the Nomad start option. I have played once with the Nomad start (~50 people) but it was in an earlier version, with educated nomads to start with. I haven't dared to try it since they are "real" nomads.

It's no good to test new things (Blast furnace) with a (partly) uneducated population. You'll never know, if there are uneducated messing up with the production numbers. In this case, it doesn't matter. I don't suppose there's much need of a Blast furnace the first 15 years or so. I'm not playing a real time mod, so the initial uneducated population will long be gone, until it's time to build it. So the "bugs" in the first version didn't matter. I will change to the new version now, but it will still take some time until this settlement is ready for heavy industry.

Anyhow, the nomad start is tough! I haven't starved or frozen anyone to death (at least not yet) but there were shortage of most things, from time to time and never my usual big stores of food. I hope it will be better now, as the educational level increases.

First picture

Overall picture from year 6, 107 inhabitants. I've cut in the starting conditions. I choose this map, because I will need a lot of space, to look for wild food at the beginning. They do have some seeds from the start, but farming in a harsh climate doesn't give much. It's easier to fish and look for wild animals and plants.

You can see, that it's very little tools and clothes in my stores. I've tried to settle young educated people close to blacksmith and tailor, but somehow the old people seem very unwilling to leave these professions to the young. They have enough food, but you can see, it's mostly fish and meat.

Second picture

Town center in year 9, 146 inhabitants. You can see at the store of tools and clothes, that the young people finally persuaded their parents, that they are better suited for these professions. I still have problems, to increase the food store. I have only been able to buy a small amount of vegetables once, years ago. The merchants are more interested in buying than selling. But at least, I now have a nice stock of coins to use, when finally a nice food merchant arrive.



Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2017, 03:42:03 AM
As I thought, things worked out fine. It's a big difference to play with educated workers. I'm now in year 19 and everyone is educated. I've started to build an industrial area. I made quite a few screenshots along the way. I'll show some of them and say a little something to each of them.

First picture

Year 15. These are my last two surviving initial settlers.

Second picture

The food merchants still more or less boycott this settlement. I have no idea, what it did to annoy them. Maybe not buying some expensive fruit or peppar, the few times they paid their visit. The miller at the center of this picture wasn't much busy. Just once could he grind some corn. But the people are content normally eating fish and on special days some meat with a desert of berries with milk.

The 3 herbalists are busy, so the people are still healthy enough, but now in April all herbs from last year are gone. But spring is in the air and things will sort out. You can see, that I've closed some of the fishing places. There are two reasons: more than enough food, not enough workers.

Third picture

The graph shows why I'm short on worker. The nomad start with 50 people made it look like this; the number of adults hasn't grown the last 5 years, because all the initial settlers became old and died in a short time. The number of graduated students can't more than just keep up.

I've built a bank. Not that I really need one. But I had a few spare coins and it's such a nice building. I can admit, that the location here isn't very appealing. This settlement has no town center, at least not yet. Maybe I will try to make one later, moving the sheep somewhere else. That's why I choose to build the bank close to the village hall.

More to come but I will make a new post. I sometimes have trouble, if I add too many pictures.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2017, 04:08:03 AM
First picture

This is the start of my industrial area. I like the idea of an early industry very much. The miners homes fit well in this industrial area. Not beautiful but appropriate and comfortable. Of cause they need some place to get their supply. The look of the Nordic store doesn't really fit in these surroundings. A company store in a design similar to the houses would be nice.

I can't say much about the production yet, but it seems quite low for such a big building like the blast furnace. I'll tell a bit more when I've played a few years and have some numbers.

You can see, that the food merchants finally stopped their boycott.

Second picture

I would suggest, that you increase the height of the mine entrance @Discrepancy. It looks odd when all the heads of the miners pop out of the roof.

The look of the Blast Furnace and Coke Oven is great; fire and smoke. Real industry!

You can also see the food graph. Everything is under control. It wasn't so at the beginning.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Discrepancy on May 20, 2017, 04:15:43 AM
If you build a road into the mine,  they will keep their heads! :)

I do agree also that the blast furnace should work quicker. Next update.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 20, 2017, 01:35:56 PM
Thank you for the tip, I will build that road into the mine. I've played a bit more and it actually looks like 2 blacksmiths in the blast furnace produce less iron than 1 smelter in a small Nordic bloomery together with 1 blacksmith producing iron from iron bloom. I'll give you some more numbers tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 21, 2017, 12:11:17 AM
The industrial style looks very nice in your game. Really a great work @Discrepancy. Maybe the bloomery can get a small nerf but it has to work in early game with a worker switching between charcoal pit, blommery and smithy. And I think such a blaster should be able to process the iron for a whole town of 1000 people or so. Of course with more workers. A small calculation of how many tools are needed in such a town per year could help to get a feeling how fast it should work.

And another question @Nilla. What was happened in year 9 when your food graph decided to go up north? :)
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 21, 2017, 09:28:02 AM
If you build a road into the mine,  they will keep their heads! :)

Sorry, it didn't work. The head still pops out of the roof; now it's just the head, not the whole upper part of the body.

Maybe the bloomery can get a small nerf but it has to work in early game with a worker switching between charcoal pit, blommery and smithy. And I think such a blaster should be able to process the iron for a whole town of 1000 people or so. Of course with more workers. A small calculation of how many tools are needed in such a town per year could help to get a feeling how fast it should work.

And another question @Nilla. What was happened in year 9 when your food graph decided to go up north? :)

To the last question: I didn't do anything special. Just played a "normal" game, where everyone doing things, that make sense. The circumstances helped; higher educational rate, lower rate unproductive/productive, a lot of fisher, a couple of food merchants.....foodgraph goes North! ;)

Now to the iron production. It's obvious; bloomery+blacksmith produces more than 2 blacksmiths in the blaster. To my opinion; it's not the way it ought to work. The hard question is; does the blaster produce too little or the bloomery too much? I've ran both production ways simultaneously and I also ran 2 blasters, one with charcoal and one with coke. As far as I can see; the production numbers are the same but charcoal is more profitable than coke. Only if a settlement runs short on logs, coke could maybe be an alternative. Here are my production numbers. I hope, that there aren´t too much miscalculation.

The numbers from the blaster, small mine, coke oven and coal pit are from only a few years on this location. (So not 100% reliable). I have recalculated the production for one worker.  Of cause; this is the North and I'm using the North trade values; very much different from vanilla. It's the values you get selling for coins to the "right" merchant.

Blast furnace: 66-94 iron; input 16, output 28, profit 12 -> annual profit: 792-1124
(2 worker; 94 each, 4 worker; 80 each, 5 worker 66-76 each)
It looks like the production pro worker is lower, if you use more workers in the same site. You can see this sometimes on other buildings as well, but not always. I don't understand why it is this way.

Small mine 48-54 iron ore (10 miners) input 1, output 12, profit 11 -> annual profit 528-594

Coal pit 128-150 (3 miners), profit 512-600

Coke oven 108-128, input 4, output 8, profit 4 -> annual profit 432-512

Charcoal Pit 220-288, input 3, output 8, profit 5 -> annual profit 1100-1440

Bloomery 180-220, input 28, output 28, profit 0

Blacksmith 232-264 iron. Input 16, output 28, profit 12 -> annual profit 2496- 2880 (or ½ for each smelter and blacksmith)

Now to the question; what is reasonable for production sites like these? Tom means a blast furnace ought to produce enough iron for a settlement of 1000 inhabitants. How many tools does such a settlement need? That is hard to say. It depends. Miners and stonecutters need a lot more tools, than many other professions. If you only produce iron tools, they will need a lot more than steel tools (or even hardened steel tools, if you use mods for that). My guess; a lot of miners, stonecutter and other high work professions with iron tools, would need close to 1000. Few miners with hardened steel tools, would maybe not need more than 250. (A blast furnace with 5 blacksmiths produces average 350 iron now.) Just to say something; let's say the 1000 people town need 500 steel tools and 100 iron for construction.

How much material do we need for this and how many people would be involved in the production?

alt 1 furnace with coke
2,4 blacksmiths making 500 steel tools from 500 steel, 250 charcoal, 125 logs
2,2 blacksmiths making 500 steel from 500 iron and 250 charcoal
8,5 blacksmiths in the blaster making 600 iron from 600 iron ore and 300 coke
12 miner getting 600 iron ore using 60 logs
2,2 blacksmiths in the coke oven making 300 coke from 300 coal
5 miner in the coal bell pit getting 600 coal (half will land in peoples homes as fuel, replacing the work of 0,3 chopper+0,7 forester)
2 charcoalburner making 500 charcoal from 500 firewood
0,6 woodcutter making 500 firewood from 125 logs
3 foresters getting 310 logs
 together ~37 worker

alt 2 bloomery
2,4 blacksmiths making 500 steel tools from 500 steel, 250 charcoal, 125 logs
2,2 blacksmiths making 500 steel from 500 iron and 250 charcoal
2,6 blacksmiths making 600 iron from 300 iron bloom and 150 charcoal
3 smelter making 600 iron bloom from 600 iron ore and 600 charcoal
12 miner getting 600 iron ore using 60 logs
5 charcaolburner making 1250 charcoal from 1250 firewood
1,4 woodcutter making 1250 firewood from 312 logs
4,4 foresters getting 500 logs
together ~33 worker

30-40 people working to produce tools and iron for a 1000 people town isn't much.

If we look at trade profit. In the North a person need food, fuel, tools, clothing to a tradevalue around 500 each year. That means, that miners and workers of the coke oven produce just enough to support themselves. Generally in Banished miners (and other producers of raw materials) have a low production, so there's not much to say about that. If I remember it right, the Nordic mine has a production in this range, too. But of cause there are children, traders, vendors and others to support, so a trade value of 1000-2000 is reasonable for other professions.

So again what is reasonable? This long text need a short answer. All production sites (maybe except the coke oven) have a production/profit in a reasonable range. The problem is, that the small scale production is more profitable than the industrial. My suggestion; increase the production in the blaster, decrease it in the bloomery. I can understand your concern @Tom Sawyer; that the production at the beginning will be too slow, when you have to alter worker between different tool making professions. All these steps; charcoal, ironbloom, iron, tools produce about 20 each month. You need more charcoal, so to produce 20 tools it needs around 5 month. If the bloomery only produce the half, it would take 6 month. It would still work fine to produce enough tools at the beginning. (Irritating slow with a surviver start but it would work). And I'm not sure that you have to cut it as much as 100%.

Just one picture

It seems like the limit in the blast oven is connected to logs. ???

Just for information: The company that runs the quarry provides its worker with a different kind of houses! ;) 
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Nilla
Only if a settlement runs short on logs, coke could maybe be an alternative.

Would be realistic. People were using charcoal in Europe till forests were depleted in 17/18 century (at least where the industry was growing). Then they started to dig into the ground for an alternative fuel. With enough wood actually no need for mining coal. The same in Banished.

Quote from: Nilla
It looks like the production pro worker is lower, if you use more workers in the same site. You can see this sometimes on other buildings as well, but not always. I don't understand why it is this way.

It occurs if a model has less "use" and "create" points than added workers. If a production building has 1 point and 2 workers are added, they will not produce more than what 1 worker would get. Or only a bit more because the second one can work while the first one is doing something else. So the values are probably not right in your test.

I find it difficult to balance furnace and bloomery. To lower the primitive construction by 50% is a good way to start as you said. If a smelter in the industrial building will have the twice speed it should work in general. It already comes by making the iron directly and without hand forging the bloom.

So the new bloomery will produce about 150 bloom maximum in a year. Still enough for a village and I also think that it can be managed in hard starts. My values are worktime 8 * workrequired 5 = about 37 turns * 4/3 = 150/110 iron bloom.

If we use the same values to make iron directly with up to 8 or 10 workers, the DS machine can produce up to 1500 iron in a year. Enough to provide a developed town or for export. Just my first thoughts.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Discrepancy on May 22, 2017, 03:39:03 AM
... my blast furnace already has 5 use points and 6 create points. But I will also increase.

I will speed it up as my values currently are workTime 8 and workRequired 8, which is too slow.

It seems like the limit in the blast oven is connected to logs. ???
good find! :)

I will work on update now.

thanks @Nilla & @Tom Sawyer
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Abandoned on May 22, 2017, 05:35:20 AM
@Nilla , I strongly disagree with lowing production of the bloomer.  I don't recall reading in any of you previous North towns that the production was too much.  This recommendation now is a comparison with Blast Furnace mod, and assumes the two will be used together .. not very likely on small or mountain maps.  This comparison also does not take in start conditions with less than 50 people, uneducated nomads, or proper time.  I would find it a real hardship in the North if bloomery production was lowered.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 22, 2017, 11:25:38 AM
@Nilla , I strongly disagree with lowing production of the bloomer.  I don't recall reading in any of you previous North towns that the production was too much.  This recommendation now is a comparison with Blast Furnace mod, and assumes the two will be used together .. not very likely on small or mountain maps.  This comparison also does not take in start conditions with less than 50 people, uneducated nomads, or proper time.  I would find it a real hardship in the North if bloomery production was lowered.

As  I said in that long thread:
Quote
All production sites (maybe except the coke oven) have a production/profit in a reasonable range. The problem is, that the small scale production is more profitable than the industrial.
That's the reason I didn't complain about the production of the bloomery before.
and
Quote
All these steps; charcoal, ironbloom, iron, tools produce about 20 each month. You need more charcoal, so to produce 20 tools it needs around 5 month. If the bloomery only produces the half, it would take 6 month. It would still work fine to produce enough tools at the beginning. (Irritating slow with a survivor start but it would work). And I'm not sure that you have to cut it as much as 100%.

I did concider a start with less than 50 people, even a start with 8 poor tool-less people, who need a lot longer, than even uneducated to produce a few tools. ;) And to decrease the production of one of the steps in the chain, doesn't make things so much harder than they are.

Maybe you are right; you will probably not build a blast furnace for a small settlement. But the other way around; If you want a blast furnace on a big map to support a large settlement (or on a small map for a small settlement in order to export tools), you will always build a bloomery first, when you play the North. With those production numbers, a player like me, would not concider to build a blast furnace.

Now @Discrepancy made an update and the production for each worker at the blast furnace has increased to about the same level as the bloomery + blacksmith. It would be enough for me, to build such an impressive building, if I need a lot of iron. I still would prefere, that a worker in this large site, would produce more than in the small. I find Tom's suggestion to reduce the production with about 1/3 is good. I'm sure @Abandoned, it will not hurt you too much. But if there are too much of protests, I can live with it the way it is now as well.   

@Discrepancy, I downloaded the upgrade. The blast furnace worked fine. I didn't even had to demolish (I had 2 sites and rebuilt one of them, just to be sure, but it wouldn't have been necessary). I used 10 blacksmiths in one of them and 2 in the other. I ran them two years. 10 blacksmiths produced average 102 iron each, 2 blacksmiths 120. Seems reasonable. We don´t want it too powerful.

I didn't really develop the settlement in these years, as I checked the new production numbers, so I had time to look around. One question to you @Tom Sawyer. You said about the trapper, that the production would get down after a while, if he is located in an area with busy forestry. My first trappers, mainly active in my first forests, still makes 160-170 furs each year after ~20 years. There haven't been 4 foresters in each sites all the time; sometimes I have more logs than I can use and the space in my ports is limited. Is this the reason, that they still catches a lot of animals?

Now to the strange thing? Look at the picture: How does this CC merchant with all his CC goods (and all his following colleges) found their way to the North? I didn't change anything, except the new version of the blast furnace. What I did yesterday, was to download the latest CC-version. It's not activated, but can it spook around in this game all the same? ??? I didn't play with it, just opened one map to take a look at the menu! Or did you @Discrepancy willingly/unwillingly make any changes by the trade?

Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 22, 2017, 12:41:02 PM
Wow, so much stuff to smoke.^^ It seems your export merchants were rowing over the whole pond or they were in Amsterdam. ;D

They are Nordic traders but something added resources from the colony to your game. Maybe there was something happened when you loaded CC in another map but would be strange.

And I guess the forests are not overworked. At least they don't have an impact yet. Or trappers can find enough animals in their larger area behind the foresters.
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Nilla on May 23, 2017, 03:46:18 AM
Wow, so much stuff to smoke.^^ It seems your export merchants were rowing over the whole pond or they were in Amsterdam. ;D
:D
Feathers?? Smoke??? Have you found a new use for this product? There´s not much hep left, so I guess the merchant used it himself and lost his way.  ;)


I also noticed, that I couldn't make a save of this game. So, something has been messed up. But I have new ideas, maybe I will try tonight and there will be a new blog tomorrow!  :-\
Title: Re: Ambril and followers- Nilla´s latest modtest
Post by: Discrepancy on May 23, 2017, 05:34:27 AM
The merchant had 4000 tobacco leaf... maybe something along with the hemp...

the cc merchants and resources aren't from me... that is weird. For the resources to show along with the sprites. etc.