World of Banished

Finally we have summer! Not in Banished! In life! :) The spring was cold and ugly but now it's almost too warm. I have to go inside to cool down a bit. I will take the opportunity to tell you a little about the game I started yesterday.

I am very impressed of your work; all you diligent modders. How you guys just "spit out" numerous lovely buildings. These pictures of all variations of homes from @kid1293 and @Discrepancy brought me to this idea:

How big can a town be, if you just use each building/construction once?

What part of the game is limiting the growth? I guess there are a several 100 different kind of homes (considering all F-variations), so I guess a town of 1000-2000 inhabitants could be possible. Could it be supplied with food, fuel and other essentials with just one of each production building/unit? I don't know. But I will try to find out.

I guess, that food will be a problem. So I might stretch my rules a bit; after some time allowing one different crop on each field/orchard, not only just one field and one orchard (or a few, there are some different types). I'll prefer this over genuine "cheat mods". But who knows, maybe I will have to reach out for such mods, too.  :-\ :-[

How will I make this practically? I thought of the Mega Mod. It has a lot, but as far as I know not the latest versions of everything and I guess it could be trouble to try to load an upgrade of a mod that it includes. To load every mod, I can think of now from the start, is also not an option to me. I find the megamod quite overwhelming, but this would be even worse. I have decided to start quite simple and add mods along the way. This way, I will always get the latest version, and I hope, that possible conflicts/crashes will appear soon, so I can understand why. I deceded to start with the latest CC mod, I could find; CC Journey. It´s the biggest and I´m not sure, how it works, to load it to an existing game. After I felt, I wanted to start Adam and Eve, I also loaded the MiniBuilidngs brom the BL team. That´s all for now.

Just for fun I´m making notes of every building I build. I have 3 lists; Production buildings, Homes, Others. If anyone want to see it, I might add some kind of list, otherwise, I´ll only show you some screenhots from time to time.

Here are the first:

First picture

Year 4; Adam and Eve start; not much to see, just a few mini buildings. I was a bit unsure how it would work because it's a 1.06 version. But the only thing, I've found so far is, that the Mini Trading port doesn't load a few products with new flags, like feathers. But so far, they don't fill my barns. so no real problem.

Second picture
Year 10. I have now built all 6 vanilla houses (and the mini tent for emergencies; nomads, students getting adults before a new house was built). I will start to make "decent tools". The small fuel refinery is one of the loss making buildings, I will avoid in the futere, if I can.

There's a funny thing; "Wild Shepherd", I haven't used before. Does anyone know how it works? I've built one. He found 5 animals (the first was found by laborers as they cleared some land) but then stopped to work. I let it rest for a year or two but it doesn't seem to matter; no more animals found. Will it ever find any again if I wait long enough? I will build a normal gatherer anyway, but it would be nice to know. I have also seen, you can only build it once. What is, if I demolish it and build it somewhere else. Does it work there?

Third picture

Just a small closer picture. If I had known, that no more domesticated animals would be found, I would have built a sheep pen. But now we have cows, not all too productive, but OK.

@Nilla good luck with new scenario.  The one successful try of cc I had domestic animal wild shepherd, after a few years that was it, no more.  I converted to gatherer, I would think if you convert it that should not count as the 1 time building a gatherer hut.  :)

hmm looks like you are expanding on the LOWESVILLE theme.welcome to the CC world. what mods do you have?did you check my lists and orders???did you add RED's trader fix,CC compatability 107?? i did have problems with blank tags at the trading posts and townhalls with some mods before i totally overhauled my mod file. i do think the compatability 107 fixes many issues. trade merchants will come but not all will accept all goods.
    the mini refinery has a purpose. you have iron ore not iron. the small refinery and smelter give you the ability to process iron early in game. i am sure you noticed many buildings require higher grade materials to even build. the shpherd is a gatherer for the domesticated animals. those you can find all over the map while clearing. they sell at a good proce.you can also build several animal pens and NECORA's goat pen with them.that 1 hut works the entire map. now is it realistic?? is it too big of a cheat??? the problem some had with it was it can be overpowering. the shepherd and the spawn rate found way more animals than were needed too fast. so the domesticated fix mod was made to override it. NECORA'S forests seemed to grow the animals,after which i opted for the fix mod. i was like you getting only a few here and there before that. and i did not use the shepherd hut,figuring it was more realistic to find them on accident while expanding.
     did you use the "no wild duck"mod?? in previous versions of CC, the hunters would find ducks more than deer.hence you would not have leather for coats. it may have been adjusted in this version though.the other thing people got annoyed by the ducks quacking too. the ducks flying all over can slow down graphics and computeres also.
    the mini TH by iitself can bring nomads. if you had the tropical greenhouse it could use the bonemeal.survival coats use feathers.
      now that you stole my idea,i guess i should tell you something i realized with LOWESVILLE. there are so many forest parts with the orchard forests,it will take planning. if you intend to build every forester,you need to get to the outside edge of the map y using the smaller foresters and then place the larger foresters and orchard foresters. otherwise,you will not have enough room. and that is on a CC very large map by the way. not telling you how to play,just advice based on what i have seen.
       i personally prefer the CC and add mods instead of the megamod.  i feel it gives players more control over the mod order and how the mods work. i guess by now there has been enough time and tests and versions to fix most bugs. still from time to time they find more. mostly,the problems seem to be due to the limit flag changes now. i was concerned that by shoving so many mods into 1 ,something had to break.
       i am surprised you chose the A&E start.  i can't use it by giving up the pine forest and NAT DIV mod. i even tried a individual A&E start option mod.when the modders get caught up, there has been a suggestion to try a pair of A&E's for start.
       you shouldn't have problems with food. there are plenty of seed types. if you build 1 field for each you can build fields for quite a while before that needs to be thought about. the orchard foresters do not require seeds either. they build like any forester. good luck with it NILLA.

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
hmm looks like you are expanding on the LOWESVILLE theme.welcome to the CC world. what mods do you have?did you check my lists and orders???did you add RED's trader fix,CC compatability 107?? i did have problems with blank tags at the trading posts and townhalls with some mods before i totally overhauled my mod file. i do think the compatability 107 fixes many issues. trade merchants will come but not all will accept all goods.

Sorry, I do write long but if you read carefully, you can see that I only have CC journey and the Minimod loaded......... so far. I thought the trade fix only fixed that the game didn't crash, if you're playing a 1.06 game and get goods with new flags. You mean it also makes that 1.06 ports can load goods with new flags?  So far it doesn't bother me at all, that the mini port can't load a few goods. The way it is, is rather pleasant. Not all of these (to me  :-[) stupid CC merchants doesn´t arrive eaither.

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
    the mini refinery has a purpose. you have iron ore not iron. the small refinery and smelter give you the ability to process iron early in game.

I know. I just want to avoid it by buying iron or/and furnace fuel insted. You need 25 logs (worth 2) to produce 10 furnace fuel (wort 3): input 50; output 30. I strongly dislike buildings that destroys value, like the fuel refinery and I will only run this if I can't buy enough iron or furnace fuel. Edit: I just noticed that I was too kind to this building; it needs 25 firewood worth 4 to produce 10 furnace fuel. So the loss isn´t  only 2 for each FF but 7! (You can use charcoal and reduce the loss to 4,5)

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
the shpherd is a gatherer for the domesticated animals. those you can find all over the map while clearing. they sell at a good proce.you can also build several animal pens and NECORA's goat pen with them.that 1 hut works the entire map. now is it realistic?? is it too big of a cheat??? the problem some had with it was it can be overpowering. the shepherd and the spawn rate found way more animals than were needed too fast. so the domesticated fix mod was made to override it. NECORA'S forests seemed to grow the animals,after which i opted for the fix mod. i was like you getting only a few here and there before that. and i did not use the shepherd hut,figuring it was more realistic to find them on accident while expanding.

I don't find it overpowered at all. 5 animals (OK, each worth 250) in quite a short time, then nothing for years. And since you say, it works the whole map, it doesn't help if you demolish and rebuild it. Good to know, in this case, I will hope for more luck to find another 2 animals for my sheep pen by cleaning land.

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
     did you use the "no wild duck"mod?? in previous versions of CC, the hunters would find ducks more than deer.hence you would not have leather for coats. it may have been adjusted in this version though.the other thing people got annoyed by the ducks quacking too. the ducks flying all over can slow down graphics and computeres also.

I don't mind the ducks. I have seen, that some years there are almost as much duck meat as venison but mostly it's not that much. The quacking doesn't bother me either. I have these sounds  set very low and I often listen to music by playing anyway and hear nothing of that kind. If this will be a big town and the lags starts, I will remember this and maybe turn them out, but so far I rather like the ducks.
 

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
      now that you stole my idea,i guess i should tell you something i realized with LOWESVILLE. there are so many forest parts with the orchard forests,it will take planning. if you intend to build every forester,you need to get to the outside edge of the map y using the smaller foresters and then place the larger foresters and orchard foresters. otherwise,you will not have enough room. and that is on a CC very large map by the way. not telling you how to play,just advice based on what i have seen.

I didn't really steel your idea, but I can admit I might have got inspired by your LOWESVILLE. ;) I have no intention to build every possible building. I will not build more than one of each building, that's the difference. And the advice is good. I will probably build a lot of those forests. I'm glad to take your advices, especially on CC matters, where I don't have much experience.
   

Quote from: brads3 on May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
       i am surprised you chose the A&E start.  i can't use it by giving up the pine forest and NAT DIV mod. i even tried a individual A&E start option mod.when the modders get caught up, there has been a suggestion to try a pair of A&E's for start.

I don't understand what you mean.  Can't this start be played together with the pine forest? ???

     

yep,i did figure that you only had CC and the mini. i didn't think you added the helper mods. i may be off but my thinking was a merchant bringing "other" items was causing the error. "other" being 1.06 to a 1.07 game or as you said a 1.07 item to a 1.06 game. reason i figure that way is a 1.06 merchant,say from the mini-mod, could bring something under the old flag and cause the game to be confused since the item when it gets to the TP is flagged 1.07. i have never seen the error and i did hold 1.06 mods til after LOWESVILLE.i did attempt RED's fix to that game and loaded a save 2 seasons back.still i had a crash. i think the CC compatability 1.07 mod does help correct these issues. combined with the trade fix i see no blank tags and no double tags in testing i have done. i debugged and threw all traders on a map and a few townhalls. the mod added causes no problems so i leave them in,better safe than sorry.
      i admit i don't watch numbers as much as you. i play different. the big thing with CC is you need so many different goods and end up with too much of many items to produce some specific items. hopefully with watching the production numbers,you can adjust the limits and keep things under control more.the mini refinery was designed to produce less efficiently than the larger 1. i am plannig to feed it with NECORA's charcoal.  that way i am not using the valued logs either. i get the pine stuff for free,so only time is invested in the charcoal. different way of playing.
      i agree the merchants can be goofy. they will bring odd items to the mini trading post but that post also won't take much of the CC items.he is rather picky.
     i have seen starts similar to yours with the domesticated animals.i had a discussion with NECORA. he swears his forests don't plant and grow animals.it was after i planted a maple forest and a few years went by that i had a huge jump in domesticated animals. hopefully that was adjusted in the new versions without the domestic fix. the ducks should have been fixed by now. if you have enough leather i wouldn't be concerned. i leave the fix mods in since they don't cause problems.
        the NAT DIV and pine forests have to be played on vanilla settings. the starts will look significantly different on other starts.with those mods enabled and a A&E start you wouldn't have thatch growing,the forests would be thicker, and you will lose many of the items that the pine adds. you could plant the pine forests and get those items. i think you could grow thatch in a meadow using the thatch hut. i like having the meadows so i play with vanilla starts now. thatch is needed by so many buildings that without being able to collect it,it would change game play too.it does mean we must struggle to keep logs though.
       what else do you want to know? glad to help if i can. you have what 30 forests or is it 50? i did count them and calculated the max radius spacing.to leave as much room to build a town, i did figure most had to be on the outer edge of the map. it might have been figured at half circles,with half being over the mountains too.i start with mild climates which produces similar to the mid-atlantic states. i don't think i would have had luck with oranges or coffee.

@Nilla this looks like a great idea.
I was wondering, with the food production, what if you say had it in the beginning as 1 set layout (pastures, fields & plantations etc), so rather 1 11x7 (or what you use as a normal size for your maps), have a dedicated space so:
20 x 20, and in that you may have 4 fields and you grow your 2 seeds over the 4, then 2 pastures (2x20x10), and you fill those 2 with your starting herd - until you get more seeds and more beasts in.

I would suggest that 1 field of each seed, and 1 pasture of each animal wouldn't be a cheat at all - after all, you are testing the limits of each building, so why not of each new food resource? 

But, this journey I will definitely be following :) 

We'll see @brads3, there will be questions along the way. You can be sure on that, although at the moment I have no special question.

To the numbers: I will keep an eye on them and handle it with serenity: Avoid unprofitable buildings, as much as I can, and shamelessly use the overpowered! ;)

@QueryEverything; I'm not sure, how I will handle the fields, orchards and pastures long term. As long as I can, I will only use one of each kind; first small, later when I need more food, maximum size. I don't plan that much in advance and I don't have any usual size of anything. It's always different from one game to another, also in the same game from one area to another. I wish I could plan a little more. My towns doesn't look very good. This one looks terrible with all the buildings just thrown out. But since I can't build many markets, barns and storage, I have to build dense and i don't have the "eyes" of making it in a pleasant way.

First picture

Just a few more years; year 15. A lot of new buildings. I have moved the mini forester/gatherer/hunter a bit south, just to have space for some more suitable producers around the big general stockpile. Somewhere in the middle, you can see the very opposite to the fuelrefinery; the CC stacks burner. It's one of the most overpowered buildings I know of; making a lot of fuel from very little logs. I will use it in this game without shame!

Second picture

I don't like hi-jacking @Discrepancy's town house thread with discussions about the long inventory and profession lists. I made this screenshot, just for you @elemental, since you wanted to hear arguments, why I don't like the endless long inventory, and profession lists.

I don't even bother to open the full profession list. It takes away too much of the screen. 1/2 or 1/3 of the professions would be enough for me. That size can be kept open and useful.

This is (still) a very small game, not much more, than you can see on the pictures. As you might understand, I'm not a person, who collect different food, material.... just for the sake of diversity. Still, look at the inventory list: more than one "page". I'm sure it will get much worse, as the game continues. In 10 years there will be 2 full pages. I will not be able to make much to prevent this.

Why does this disturbs me? (Or if I'm honest, it doesn't really disturbs me, but I would prefere it to be shorter, simpler. I don't need 100 different vegetables. 10 (or maybe 20 at the most) basics and a few processed variations would be enough for me.) I'll tell you 3 reasons why:

-I like to control my games. I like to plan my production. I like to know, if I have enough rawmaterial for the things I want to produce. The small menu for general statistics isn't good enough for that (except in a few cases). I don't only want to know, that I have textiles in my store, I want to take a short peep in the inventory, to see if I have wool and leather enough to produce warm coats, or if I have to close or change the production. I don't want to search in a three pages long inventory for this.

-I like to give my Bannis a good diet. For this purpose, I like to see how much food of each category, there is in my stores, to be able to react and build more producers of a certain category; in advance before the health gets bad. That's why I normally sort the list by quantity and not alphabetically. It's easier to take a fast look at the important food categories, if there aren´t too many of them.

-I dislike the "firewood economy" (= support a whole settlement with producing and exporting one single/a few very profitable products), but i like to trade. I like to produce a surplus of things my Bannies need and export what's too much and I like to see fast, if I can put more or less of the possible products into the ports, without searching in these long lists.

But here we are with this large variety. Many people like it that way and I can live with it. Many of the modders who are active on this page also have about the same philosophy, about introducing new products and professions: Giving something more to the game, than just diversity. So it's easy to choose some mods, that fit a playstyle like mine. That's why I belong to the inventories on this page. :) ;)

only 1 of each?? that will be challenging. you are more limited than i would be,i have more mods. the colonial house set will give you a nice town look though. with the slower population growth mods,you can take time every few years to decorate and add flowers,benches,etc.
     i agree with the professions list. your should be mostly alphabtical. mine is a mess with the way it adds the mod jobs to it.i wish it was laborer,builders,and then a group of food workers,and so on. i like to keep 1 food worker per 5 bannies.shops i turn on and when they run out of material they can be laborers and stock their houses.
    i understand the inventory discussions quite well. this is why you see me flip between by quantity and alphabetical. i need to see what i have surplus of to process or trade.but i need to pick out those textiles also.
   i am glad to see you play CC. your play style is different than mineyou trade lots more than me.i try to build self-supporting towns.i hope you see something so i can learn from it.

Hi @Nilla seeing as though you pointed the discussion to here from DS's thread, I wouldn't mind talking about value and trade. If this isn't the appropriate place, tell me and I'll delete this post.

So I understand your view on buildings not running at a trade loss, i.e. never producing less than what you start with. However, I personally think that in some instances a trade value loss is very applicable. I wanted to get your opinion on if you have ever considered the non-trade value of a product? I'll use an example of home wares to explain what I mean.

Home wares - a requirement for advanced CC housing. You said the following...

QuoteNow to homeware: It's a good thought, that the Banns need some items in their houses. But in this game, they don't care about it. They are not happier, more productive or in any way better off with these items. It has no impact of the gameplay. I can accept, how it's made in CC: It's a way to make all these goods useful: If a player want to give his Bannies fancy houses, he has to produce (or buy) these things. But since it has very little impact on the gameplay, I don't like it to be "standard". If you like it that way: play CC.

However, I feel you are looking at this from a pure trade value point of view, because advanced buildings do have the effects above you say they do not. The value of home wares is not just the trade value of the pieces used to make it, but also the wider value of being able to construct a more advanced home. Advanced homes allow for more children, have far lower heating requirements, and larger storage. This means less trips to the market/storage barns/fuel piles to fill the home, and more time working or spending idling/visiting church/studying in school. These factors positively impact happiness and health, and ultimately increase productivity. I think you will find that the over all health, happiness, and productivity of a town full of high end houses is far greater than that of wooden houses.

So you are correct in saying it does not directly impact these traits of the game, as in a Bannie does not consume it and instantly be happy, but, it does impact these traits in the wider/longer term. Advanced building requirements do have a longer term impact on game play and bannie well being. So, as these advanced items do provide a longer benefit in a lot of areas of the game, is it such a bad thing if the trade value is a loss?

Now I will counter this point and accept that some of the recipes for home wares and building supplies do incur a rather dramatic loss, and this should be corrected IMO, however a slight loss or at least no gain isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the wider implications of the goods.

The main reason I think of this is because I find Banished an incredibly front loaded game, i.e. primary production is high (I always end up with copious amounts of food which never perishes (that would be fantastic)) and there is very little to actually do with these items apart from building stuff and making more advanced items which there is even less to do with. It is a dilemma I come across constantly when developing mods and asking, 'Do I really need to introduce this item?'. Also, there is nothing we can trade for that we can't produce ourselves, and there is no ultimate goal apart from filling the map. It would be real nice if there were some trade only items, I guess CC luxury items (chocolate, coffee, etc.) that you can only access via trade, have a large happiness/health boost, and are very expensive to buy, so that some of the excess advanced items are more useful apart from just buildings. Or some very expensive things that are needed to build wonders or something. I'm getting side tracked and I think I forgot my point...

NECORA,you do make a valid argument.the biggest problem is as you stated. the game was never ment to work as we are using it. we need several things fixed for those extra items to really make sence.  happiness doesn't matter enough to the game play.if it influenced workers more that would give more reason to develop towns differently. many hate making items just to trade them away.we feel like we are slaves to a unseen king or something by doing that.it really doesn't make sence to struggle and produce nice stuff to basically give it away for a piece of bread and some beans. if there was a way for bannies to use these items that again would change the game. i have ideas to "force" the bannies to use items, but i don't think they are practicle nor would they be accepted by other players. the other thing that would help the situation is if the inventory was sorted differently. it has 2 settings by amount or alphabetically. if it was by category it would help. a group of the textiles,building materials,foods,etc. the way it is now it takes time to scroll thru it to figure out what you have in stock.the more items we make the longer that list is. this affects the TH and TP but also individual markets and barns.
    i play different than NILLA. my candles for instance don't add value before i trade them by her math. i look at it as the beeswax is free,by using a CC beekeeper. so all i have invested is 1 laborer and his time.plus i figure the bannies can see at night  by making the candles. not that we have night either really.
    there is a time for both ideas and versions of the game. biggest problem i see with the higher end housing is by the time you can produce all the stuff it takes to build many of those, you have workers and shops all over the map. a large town can not be micro-managed as a small 1. i end up with small amounts of many many different items scattered all over the place. with the new flag limits we may have more controls now and can come up with ideas to help some of the issues. i think we still will wish for more though. we can not change the TP or TH menus. and we have yet to understand the happiness meter and use it .hopefully LIKE will send us more help or ideas.

Very interesting points, @Necora. Especially regarding CC homewares and advanced houses.

You say there is no ultimate goal apart from filling the map, and that's true in one sense, but the original game was more about survival than anything else. Not that I play vanilla. I just don't like it. Modding has changed the game to have more of a city-building focus, and that suits me just fine. The last few days I have been playing with your decorative trees mod. They are so much nicer in game than what I saw in the screenshots.  :)  I get more enjoyment out of simple decorative items than anything else, yet some will dismiss them as a waste of space.

So for me, the goal of the game isn't the destination, it's the journey itself. I want my villagers to be happy, and for me that means more than a balanced diet and living as close to work as is physically possible. They get spoiled with tree-lined roads and cake and other goodies even if there is no real incentive in the game to do so.

A lot of things to answer.

@RedKetchup; the mini-profession menu is a part of CC.

@brads3, I'm not sure, that I trade so much more than you do. It might have that impression, partly because I've been playing the North on harsh a lot. And if you do, you more or less have to trade, if you want a healthy population, since it makes no sense to farm in that cold climate. In this game, I more trade away things I can't use or have too much of and only take space away in my few barns, than trade for any goods. But I buy some building materials and later I will try to trade for food, but I'm not sure yet, what I can produce to sell.

And to the candles; I just built a candle maker, not to trade away the candles, just to produce a few, to be able to upgrade my stone cutter, some time. After I've produced enough candles, I will close it and sell the beeswax. I don't see it "for free". It's wort something to trade away. An educated worker makes a very small profit (each candle 0,5 trade unit and the production isn't high, with uneducated it's even a loss and you would get more, if you sell the wax). I can understand the thought; "I want my people to be able to see in the dark, so I make candles" and I would have liked, if more than the basic needs for food and fuel, would have an impact on the gameplay. But as long as it doesn't, I guess, I have too little imagination for that; too much of square head engineering thinking!

@Necora; Maybe we should start another thread with the name "Banished Philosophy" to have these discussions. ;) But I don't mind having it here. I felt it was OK, to discuss building supply in that house thread from DS but as @elemental wanted some answers, to why I don't like the large menus, I thought I'll better move it here, especially as I built my argumentation on a screenshot from this actual game.

When I made the comment on the homeware, I didn't thought of production economy at all. It's no secret, how I feel about "bad" balanced buildings (loss maker as well as "prodcutionbooster"), so I guess, it's not far fetched to misunderstand what I wrote. And I did concider the better fuel economy and larger stores. I did write "little impact" not "no impact".  ;) But I'm afraid, you are wrong, when you say, that all these things, they can do instead, have an impact on the happiness. I wish it had, but unfortunately, most of these things, that are said to make people happy, doesn't work. In a normal game, I know of just one thing, that makes people unhappy; death of a family member and two things, that works against it; graveyards for adults and for a child/student who loses a parent; the possibility to move out and found a new family early. So no, if a late game settlement with large expensive buildings is happier and healtier, it's due to other things, than the homes. (Fuel might be a problem in a large settlement, if you only have wooden houses, so I can agree a little on that point!)

Of cause, I can see that things have a "non trade value". That it can be just pleasing, to build areas with large expensive houses or a big cathedral, even if it has no impact on the gameplay. The same, if you have a prosperous settlement and are able to provide your population with a variety of expensive processed food and luxury goods, even if they would be as happy and healthy with just fish, corn, potatoes and apples.

What I do dislike, is when these big houses or the cathedral would cost the settlement a lot less, if you trade for the building material/products, instead of make them yourself. I don't need every thing to be made with profit, not everything have to be a "good" trading product. But in such a case, it shouldn't be possible to order these things from the merchants "to a bargain".

I went on with this game a little yesterday but I see, now I made no screenshots. I'll add some the next time.

Quote from: Nilla on May 26, 2017, 06:40:30 AM

What I do dislike, is when these big houses or the cathedral would cost the settlement a lot less, if you trade for the building material/products, instead of make them yourself. I don't need every thing to be made with profit, not everything have to be a "good" trading product. But in such a case, it shouldn't be possible to order these things from the merchants "to a bargain".

Personally I think many buildings are too cheap to build - or at the very least they should require more work. But that's just my opinion. Somewhere you have to draw a line between real life and the way the game works.

In real life it most definitely can be cheaper/easier to import or buy something than to make it or grow it yourself. Economy of scale. But again Banished is a game, not real life. Balancing costs is tricky, especially when so many different modders (and players) have different ideas on what they think is right.

Back to your explanation about not wanting unnecessary items... sorry but I just don't understand your reasoning. No offense intended. Let's say someone made a bakery mod with 30 different recipes. One of them is plain old bread that we already have in the game from at least 3 mods that I can think of. The other 29 are brand new bakery items. None of those items will appear in barns or in your town hall list unless you make them or buy them. If you don't need them and you don't want them then you don't have to make them. So I don't see how they can negatively impact your game if you don't make them. They will show up on trade boats but you can control what traders bring so that isn't a big problem either. Maybe I am missing something. Again, no offense intended.

@elemental. You are asking why not to add unnecessary things to the game and want to hear the reasons. But is not the logical question always "why" and not "why not"? Or better to say "what for". What for to add 29 additional bakery items in your example? If you have a good answer for that then it is not unnecessary anymore and you can talk about pro and contra of it. If not then there is no reason to add it. ;D

Reasons to not add unnecessary items are e.g.
- it costs time to make it by modders
- it costs space and makes the pkm bigger
- it increases loading time of the game
- it's a source of bugs and conflicts
- it displaces necessary items in game
- it needs actions in game to keep it away from the game
- it creates confusing production menus

I have no trouble with hijacking, @Discrepancy! The only thing, that might be bad in this case, is if someone is interested in, how such a menu is made, but never read my blog, would miss it. You know, thinking "That old hag again, writing about all these numbers in bad English, who care?" ;) But since it's mainly addressed to Red, and it seeems like he takes a look at most everything written on this page, it will work! By the way, an excellent idea @RedKetchup! This mini menu is better than the huge one, but your suggestion with a few common professions would be better! :)

Quote from: elemental on May 26, 2017, 04:11:27 PM
Personally I think many buildings are too cheap to build - or at the very least they should require more work. But that's just my opinion.

Believe it or not, @elemental, I totally agree! ;)

Quote from: elemental on May 26, 2017, 04:11:27 PM
In real life it most definitely can be cheaper/easier to import or buy something than to make it or grow it yourself. Economy of scale. But again Banished is a game, not real life. Balancing costs is tricky, especially when so many different modders (and players) have different ideas on what they think is right.

What you say is true in our globalized world today but I think you forget, that if we want to set a time period for a "Banished society" it's rather before than after the industrial revolution. I can even remember in my childhood (I'm not the youngest but it was definitely a long time later ;) ) imported goods; oranges, banans, "off season" vegetables, toys..... were exclusive things. But again I agree, Banished is a game and I do realize, how hard balancing is. But that will not stop me from pointing out, when I find something unbalanced. I know very well, that it's only my opinion, that other people think different and I never demand anything, to be changed to my liking!

Quote from: elemental on May 26, 2017, 04:11:27 PM
Back to your explanation about not wanting unnecessary items... sorry but I just don't understand your reasoning. No offense intended. Let's say someone made a bakery mod with 30 different recipes. One of them is plain old bread that we already have in the game from at least 3 mods that I can think of. The other 29 are brand new bakery items. None of those items will appear in barns or in your town hall list unless you make them or buy them. If you don't need them and you don't want them then you don't have to make them. So I don't see how they can negatively impact your game if you don't make them. They will show up on trade boats but you can control what traders bring so that isn't a big problem either. Maybe I am missing something. Again, no offense intended.

In one way you are right, @Discrepancy these 29 (or rather 27; I might use more than one of the recipes ;) ) wouldn't appear in my inventory. In fact, I would probably not even build such a bakery or if I can avoid it, not load a mod with such a bakery. As you say; there are plenty of very nice bakeries out there. I don't always order things. If I don't need something special, why would I? But if I for some reason would load a mod that includes your special bakery, the merchants would most likely "harass" me with a lot of pastry, I probably don't want. It's not a big thing, but I would prefere it simple.

But if you can't understand me, I can certainly not understand you: Why on earth do you want 30 different bakery products? I can understand, if people want to process more or less every possible raw material. I guess it's possible to make 30 different recipes for a bakery. But why give them 30 different names? Why not "bread", with a few different recipes, "cake" with a few more and maybe one or two more separate products? I don't need plum cake, apple cake, walnut cake, peacan cake......... a simple "cake" would fit for all; take less space in the inventories and by the merchants. No offense! (or maybe just a little ;) )

I just saw what @Tom Sawyer wrote, while I wrote this. I can almost delete my words and agree, but since it's already done, I may as well post it!

@Tom Sawyer I agree 100% with reasons, well said. Nilla too.  And I also like @RedKetchup thoughts on UI professions list, don't forget minimize button.  :)

I do like that short profession list, it is much easier to handle.

As for the number of resources, from my opinion I really quite like having good variation of raw materials such as different berries, fruits, vegs, I think it adds a nice variation to the game and allows you to select things you personally like or based on the region you play. To me, just having a generic 'berry' or 'fruit' does seem pretty bland really. However to counter that, I don't like lots of secondary or tertiary options. So when I want to make bread, I then want it to be general, so an option of 'fruit bread', 'veg bread', 'nut bread' etc. that allows you to use any raw ingredient but doesn't spam up the menu with different types of bread. Same with meals, just 'hot meal' would be fine, rather than different types based on different resources being made for it. Also, when we get to tertiary production of food, I would also like to see a loss and to be able to use it to cut down on food numbers, if you make a hot meal it should be something like 1 steak + 1 potato + 1 bread = 1 hot meal rather than then making 10 hot meals from it or something. It makes sense in a realistic way, but also in a technical way of the game in that the hot meal will give alternative value in multiple food groups (protein, veg, grain).

But, of course, this is my opinion only and I would like to take the time to remind people that there is no right or wrong way to enjoy the game. Neither Nilla and Tom or elemental or I are right in this sense, and that is the beauty of these games.

I am a scientist, and this last year I have been teaching an introductory course to MSc students. One part of this was the philosophy of science. A core component of the philosophy of science is 'dogmas' or when one scientific theory is based on a completely different type of thinking to another theory. The proponents of these theories can discuss, as we are here, yet the discussions devolve to arguments as neither side are able to understand each other because the theories use different language/expression/meanings/thinking methods. While either side can debate to eternity, they can never agree, only disagree, because the fundamental aspects of their theories are so incompatible that it just will never make sense to the other. Is one right or wrong? In this sense, no. In most science cases, one theory will win out over the other due to empirical evidence, but that is not applicable here. We see this in all aspects of life at the moment, science, religion, politics, and I find it fascinating that even a simple computer game can bring out the exact same tendencies! Humans beans are fascinating, but I will never understand them. I'll stick to animals :D

So talking about right or wrong, @Nilla you can't say 'you are wrong' about my previous post because I mentioned happiness, and ignore the other aspects. I said happiness is impacted by these things, as are other aspects, I didn't say happiness was the important link, it is one of a synergy of game mechanics that is central to successful game play that ultimately increases production, which was the main point of the post, perhaps this did not come across as I intended. Yes happiness in the game is over rated, but it was one factor out of a range that I said. Comment on the others too if you are going to call someone wrong, don't nit pick. I agree with your assessment on happiness, it is a shame it was never incorporated to have more of an effect on the game. It seems to me one of the biggest impacts on the game is time spent doing other things but working which includes visiting church - happiness might not impact productivity directly too much but they do spend a lot of time idling or at church or the cemetery, there fore it does decrease productivity eventually.
There are three types of happiness that buildings produce, that I can see. Spirit, Security, and Goods. This means that in the daily life of a bannie, they are coded to seek out a shot of these, and will go out of their way to visit the church, or cemetery, or well. Overall happiness values mean they spend less time at these locations, but they still have to go to them. This is my point, in a time management of the game, advanced buildings increase productivity by minimizing the time spent going to stock piles and storage places for food and fuel, etc, so they can spend more time working and the time visiting the church or cemetery doesn't impact on productivity as much as if they were also constantly going back and forth between stores/stock piles. It seems that a lot of the core game mechanics like this do not have an over arching impact, but effect how efficiently other mechanics work.

Quote from: Necora... I said happiness is impacted by these things ...

That's the point or what Nilla meant. Resources and buildings (except of cemetery) don't have any impact on happiness. As far as we know from tests it is not implemented. All kinds of alcohols or luxuries are useless for the people. You can feed them with it for fun but you cannot make a point for advanced town development or something like that.

A working and modifiable happiness system would be a really great addition to Banished. Maybe the most useful thing ever.

NILLA,i care  to hear what you say. i keep hoping you throw me a crumb of info i can use.even though we agree to disagree most times.it is funny how we play different but do agree on so much.
last time i started a conversation about the Ui,it go so severly hicjacked i left the table,room,and swam back across the ocean away from it.i agree with the way RED describes somewhat. a professions list labor,builder,then a food worker group,then a forest and resource group,then a processing group.it doesn't have to be the whole list. as RED suggested a small window with just basics would help if ordered correctly.mine  starts out alphabetical then it gets confused.it adds mod add-ons in the middle of it and ends with vendors. i use the list to set builders, keep track of when students graduate to laborers,and wish i could see the food to keep it balanced.
     i used to play and want more options. as i have played the game longer,i have changed my play style has changed and so also my thinking on adding stuff.TOM makes very good points that i had not thought of too.the amount of computer memory being used i had not considered before.
  i  wish the game would allow us to bake or cook or mix ingredients more generically. in large towns it can be a problem to set a bakery or building to work and not realize it ran our of ingredient "A" and stopped working. then you must tell it to use ingredient "B". when A and B are almost the same thing.some buildings we want and need to adjust like the BS and tools. some however,do not make sence. if you make meals it should be meat+veggy+fruit=meal. the game will not let you do that. it has to be done by each ingredient. or we have to remod everything backwards to allow for it. i do not recommend that to any modder. that is too much work.

    i think the agreement of the debate is if mods are made to bring so many different items to make those as individual mods or add-ons. make mod sets more generic with less baking or other goods. that would please both sides of the issue.

Quote from: Necora on May 27, 2017, 06:29:34 AM
But, of course, this is my opinion only and I would like to take the time to remind people that there is no right or wrong way to enjoy the game. Neither Nilla and Tom or elemental or I are right in this sense, and that is the beauty of these games.

Agree on that!!!! :)

Quote from: Necora on May 27, 2017, 06:29:34 AM
So talking about right or wrong, @Nilla you can't say 'you are wrong' about my previous post because I mentioned happiness, and ignore the other aspects. I said happiness is impacted by these things, as are other aspects, I didn't say happiness was the important link, it is one of a synergy of game mechanics that is central to successful game play that ultimately increases production, which was the main point of the post, perhaps this did not come across as I intended. Yes happiness in the game is over rated, but it was one factor out of a range that I said. Comment on the others too if you are going to call someone wrong, don't nit pick. I agree with your assessment on happiness, it is a shame it was never incorporated to have more of an effect on the game. It seems to me one of the biggest impacts on the game is time spent doing other things but working which includes visiting church - happiness might not impact productivity directly too much but they do spend a lot of time idling or at church or the cemetery, there fore it does decrease productivity eventually.
There are three types of happiness that buildings produce, that I can see. Spirit, Security, and Goods. This means that in the daily life of a bannie, they are coded to seek out a shot of these, and will go out of their way to visit the church, or cemetery, or well. Overall happiness values mean they spend less time at these locations, but they still have to go to them. This is my point, in a time management of the game, advanced buildings increase productivity by minimizing the time spent going to stock piles and storage places for food and fuel, etc, so they can spend more time working and the time visiting the church or cemetery doesn't impact on productivity as much as if they were also constantly going back and forth between stores/stock piles. It seems that a lot of the core game mechanics like this do not have an over arching impact, but effect how efficiently other mechanics work.

I'm sorry, you misunderstood me again, I only meant, you are wrong, when you say that all these things, has an impact on the happiness, not that all your argumentation was wrong. (Thank you @Tom Sawyer for your explanation.)  I may express myself clumsy, many times (English is my third language) and my skills are more in the fields of math and technology, not language. So I take the opportunity to apologize to all, if I say something clumsy. I never mean to hurt or diminish anyone. 

And @brads3, what crumbs do you need from me? If you are more specific I will deliver!

@Tom Sawyer and @Nilla hmm I think my point was lost in there too somewhere, I tend to not be able to explain myself very well in text. @Nilla I think you're English is probably as better than mine on message boards, I always struggle making my point in posts! Sorry if I sound like a broken record on this, I am not really disagreeing with you at all just trying to clarify my point about advanced buildings and things like home wares having a wider value than just trade or instant impacts as I think my initial point was completely lost in a discussion happiness that I never intended, because I agree with you.

We seem to have gotten side tracked on happiness in terms of how happy the bannies are feeling but that really wasn't the point of my posts. I never said happiness itself directly impacts productivity or has any major impact on game play. My point about bringing up the happiness codes in the buildings (and yes, some goods buildings to have them, introduced by the apiary example) is not that they make the bannies feel happy, but more the physical impact of making a banny seek out that location as part of their day to day life, regardless of how much of a positive impact it has on their well being. Does that make sense?

That means that in the day of a banny, they will go and visit a church or cemetery or apiary (if it has the code) regardless of how much of an impact the actual happiness gives to them. This, in terms of time spend doing stuff, reduces the amount of time they work. So, by reducing the amount of times a banny needs to stock up their house because it is an advanced building with loads of storage and heat capacity, the time they spend idling at church or what ever has less of an impact on over all productivity. Does this make sense? I'm not discussing how happy particular buildings make bannies, that is beside the point and as you said has very little impact on game play, but more the fact that regardless, they will go find these places, and if they can't find them, they idle. This is coded as part of their daily routine. As soon as you build a hospital, they congregate (especially if it is the first happiness producing building) regardless of how that actually impacts their happiness value, it takes time away from other things. Same with a cemetery, church, and other buildings that have a happiness code. This was the point of my discussion on advanced houses and why home wares etc. have a more wider value than trade value, as they minimize the impact such 'happiness' producing buildings have in terms of pure time spent doing other tasks.

It is the whole reason why the vanilla game had stone houses, they make everything more efficient than wooden houses as the bannies spend less time filling the houses with food and fuel. The advanced building supplies and home wares have extra value to the game by allowing you to build even better houses, making things even more efficient. If this had no impact on the game, what is the point in stone houses at all?

the more i try to explain myself it comes out like a babbling brook and my posts get longer and even i fall asleep sometimes. lol NILLA,if i knew what it was you wouldn't have to throw me the crumbs. as for me i speak hillien,it is an hillbilly-alien language i developed on my own planet.  that is why everyone kicked me off and sent me to bug earthlings.

@brads3  :D

I just wanted to add, I didn't start this discussion for an argument or anything, I just wanted @Nilla 's opinion on the wider value of certain goods beyond trade value. You have a different way of looking at the game than I, and as a player I respect that and as someone who makes a few mods I would like to learn more about it so that as I develop my stuff in the future I can incorporate the best of both of our views on the game to make awesome stuff. That is the goal, and I do apologize if it comes across as an argument or something, that is not what I intend at all and I respect all of your opinions, and if it leads to a discussion on opposite views than that is for the best, but I hope you don't think I'm just here for a dig or anything like that.

@Necora The point of stone houses in vanilla game is to need less fuel and to be less vulnerable to fire. The consumption of fuel is the main property to create advanced houses and actually we don't have something else. The use of space per inhabitant can be another but that's tricky because it means that a cheap early game building has to require more area than an expensive house.

Your text about happiness I did not understand fully. The happiness code creates a location for idling around the building. People are walking there if they are not working. If there is no idling location in town then they walk in the forest. That's all. What I remember and @Nilla knows it better is that unhappy people idle more often and are less productive because of that. But you cannot do something by building a church or feeding them with luxury items. I also think it doesn't reduce the idling time but it can be tested. So happiness system not working. The concept was nice. To create different kinds of requirements for happiness (goods, health, spirit, safety and entertainment) and to let them idle instead of working if unhappy. Really cool but not finished. The first step to make it work would be to decrease their basic happiness level to make all the buildings and resources necessary for increasing it. I tried it by changing some values in the citizen.rsc but it has no influence in game. So I gave up to work with happiness and changed the function of churches to attract nomads and balanced alcohol to be trade goods. It's a shame.

So many request's, so less time. :)

Nothing wrong with not agreeing with each other as long as the debate stays civil. :)

Lots of things are "invented" by some modders what was deemed impossible.
But reality is that not everything, despite the very good additions some modders have made by trial and error, is possible without Luke making changes to the source code.

My hope is that Luke will change at least the building requirements stuff so more building materials can be added to build buildings and who knows throws in another surprise as well.

Luke is the only one who knows what can be done with the code and what cannot be done.
I know he is a busy man and work alone but to chime in so once in a while to just say: Guys, forget it. "That what you are trying to do is not going to work" will save us modders some time".
On the other hand I understand that Luke refrains from that because "we" will ask him to make it possible.
It all comes down to one question. Is Banished close to completely finished project for Luke or is he willing to do more updates in the future?
We can only guess and I not even sure if he knows it himself.

It is not wrong to ask the modders for as much as possible but on the other hand it creates situations that lots of stuff will end up as trade only. For me personally not that much as a big deal but I can understand that some players not like it that much because of UI issues.

Making houses is pretty easy and won't affect gameplay that much. Make the houses have some more storage, use less fuel and even allow a bannie or two more and that's it.
Same for churches, chapels and the like.

Production chains is a different story. Some are easy too but it will end up with lots of stuff trade only as no real purpose can be modded in and the more materials the more the markets, storage places, and UI are subject to some problems.
I don't have that many mods and I have end products what are not more then just trade only.
Pouches, Saddles, Linseed Oil, Glass, to name a few.

Linseed Oil and glass I have a idea for but can only realize this when Luke indeed increase the building requirements so I can make paint or varnish out of Linseed Oil and Glass can be used as well.
Even a woodcarver can use linseed Oil so I can make a woodcarver building, but what does a wooden statue really do in gameplay besides trade?
Okay, some van argue that a statue can create some happiness, but I think we all agree that the happiness system (With all respect to Luke) is as easy as it is.

Same with RedKetchup's pottery. Really sad as pottery was a huge thing in the medieval times and that is IMHO the reason Red added it to Banished and I made the leatherworker chain for that same reason knowing the end products would be trade only. Only thing I can think of is to use pottery items in chains what produces fluids so to put the fluids in the pottery items as I did with glassware in the apothecary.

Even when players came with lots of ideas for the apothecary I only ended up with 3 end items as to not flood the markets with stuff what does the same for the bannies anyway.
Apothecary was a medieval thing too. THAT is why my beloved wife always wanted me to add one even realizing that it would not do more then the Vanilla herbalist does with just plain herbs. Lots of players play Banished in a sort of City building way and the more different buildings the better.

Others are number crushers and take a good look at production numbers, speed and values.

At the end though with so many mods I can honestly say that there is at least something out there for everyone what will make them happy :)

@Tom Sawyer right, and that links to the point I was originally making.

Less required fuel + more storage = less time spent picking up fuel and food and moving it to the house = more time spent working and producing other things. This is the chain I was meaning when I said that advanced houses and more specifically the advanced products needed to build them have more value to the game than just what you can trade them for, hence why I think that if they have no or even slightly less value than the resources used to produce them it isn't necessarily a bad thing because they will, over time, increase productivity of the town by freeing up the time of a worker from doing these menial tasks they have to do.

I agree that the happiness concept is good but poorly implemented, but the only reason for mentioning it was because the idle code in these buildings means that it is one extra menial task the bannies are coded to do, but one we have little control over, so if we minimize the time spent stocking the house, we are also minimizing the impact that idling has on a work cycle, hence increasing productivity of the town.

It is far fetched, and I don't know how big an impact it is, but I do think it is noticeable and so does add an extra 'intangible' value to the resources produced in the game such as home wares.

Well. @Necora I still don't understand how these advanced houses can minimize the impact of these idling locations. (I think, that's a better name, than happines building, since they generally don't bring any happiness). But never mind. I do see, that less fuel and larger storage have a positive influence. And if you go back and read, what I said the first time about the homeware, I'm not totally hostile, I just don't think it ought to be standard for all advanced buildings from different modders. I can reveal; I have already bought one homeware in my present game! :) Maybe I'll even produce some, we'll see.

And principally, just for the record; I do like to discuss things. I like different opinions. I come from a family, where we always discussed with dedication, everything from world politics to the new shoes from the neighbor, where the opinion from the children were as important as from the parents. My first boyfriend was very shocked. He came from an upper class family, where the words of the father was the only thing that mattered. The same in our family, we always discuss things. People who don't know me and my husband might think, that we are short from a divorce, but we've got along very well with eachother this way for the last 35 years!

At least you can tell me @brads3 for what do you need these crumbs? If you need them to avoid the food crises you have in you last game, I'm not sure I can help you much. You have put yourself in very difficult situation. I'm pretty sure, if I played your game, I would have hard times too: many uneducated, many unproductive children and students compared to adults, difficult map with little land to build for the start efficient forest units. The only advice I can give in such a game, just to focus of the important things: food, food, food, fuel, food, tools, food, food,..... I know you want some kind of storyline but everything extra, that doesn't contribute to the initial basic needs, will have to wait until the situation gets under control. I'm sure it will, when students graduate, when the number of children and student gets down and the number of adults grows. I've just started the game and will post a few screenshots. I'll rather doubt, that you will find any crumbs.



First picture

I haven't played much but this is the main part of my settlement. I've cut in the inventory.

Second picture.

I've started to expand to the other side of the river. You can see at the population graph, that I've just taken some new nomads. They live here. Extra for you @brads3 to look at, I've cut in the full profession list. I don't run all buildings all the time, so if it looks very much different from yours, just ask, why I have the one or other profession. I just see, that I have a few unemployed builders. That's not normal. I also have menu free laborers. That's simply because I started my latest save, to make these screenshots, but it snowed, and snowed. I just speed ran the game and all building projects were finished, students became adults without getting a profession. I will now go back to my last save and play a little. I'll tell you tomorrow, how it goes on.


Finally I want to qoute @embx61 from the wise words, he just wrote:

QuoteAt the end though with so many mods I can honestly say that there is at least something out there for everyone what make them happy :)

I will thank you all modders for that.

sorry, forgot the pictures!

 when i said "crumb" i ment tidbit of information not food ,you goof. lol. you do toss me something to chew on sometimes. as for the fort,it was on a death spiral. i did try to save it. the more i tried the worse it seemed to get. that last group of nomads,when i was trying to build food up, kicked me hard. i did do a similar map a long time back but i have lost the map code.it did much better than this 1. it was time to move on though with the barracks so full.
      NECORA,don't take us as arguing even if i use that word.  i have debated with myself sometimes too. i even loose them on occasion. like earlier i had to stop the game and figure where and what to build next. what made sence 1 way, the game and map said didn't make sence another. it's o'k. i don't want to be the same as anyone else. my name isn't jones or rockefeller. my wallet says so even.
      it is a debate as long as we don't throw stones. i try not to.NILLA has told me before to watch what i say cause it gets messed up in translations.i think debates is good for the game. we can all learn from each other by comparing different styles. i may not load all mods from every modder. that isn't because i disagree or don't like what they have done. it is because my style or tastes are different.
   i want to go back and argue with Eb though. i don't think LUKE knows  how much can be done either. i think the game,because of smart modders,has gone way past what he designed and thought could be already. i wonder if he remembers what this game was suppose to be or do when he developed it originally. i would like to hear his thoughts and impression.

   NILLA,what am i looking for with your professions list? yours is not as confusing as mine since you have less mods.i have switched mine to a scrollable window so it doesn't take up so much room.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on May 27, 2017, 04:13:10 AM


Reasons to not add unnecessary items are e.g.
- it costs time to make it by modders
- it costs space and makes the pkm bigger
- it increases loading time of the game
- it's a source of bugs and conflicts
- it displaces necessary items in game
- it needs actions in game to keep it away from the game
- it creates confusing production menus

The thing is just about everything you mention here applies to every mod. Which leads to the question: why make any mods at all? The answer to that question should be obvious.  :)

NILLA,i am not trying to hijack your thread. EB said he made the saddles and oil for trade. i thought he made the saddles to go with KID's wild west mod and the oil for lanterns in mines. is that why the buildings are bigger and fit different? they do look so n ice with the wild west set though. your herbalist building bugs me. it doesn't grow herbs ir gathers and it looks too nice for the plymouth town i keep trying to put it in.lol. the color matches up good but it functions wrong for a town and it is bigger and fancier. not ment to be a complaint if it sounded it. the mod keeps calling me to put it there.
    as to pottery,it could be used in preserving food, especially if NILLA wants it to rot and spoil. at CC they use glass and barrels to store and can food.

@brads3

If Kid finds a way to give saddles a gameplay function in his wild west mod he can introduce saddles in his mod as material.
I shared almost all my source files in our little corner here on WoB for other modders to take or lift parts out.

I personally never thought about Kid's Wild West mod when making the leatherworks chain. I made the leatherworks chain mainly because it fits the medieval theme but the problem was as with so many production chains to make the end product really useful. Sure I could have added a leather clothing item but it does not do much either.

That Luke should not know how his own game functions and what can be done with it seems a bit weird to me.
Of course he maybe 'forgot' how exactly a little thing here and there works and have to scan his code to find it again but the main functions should be obvious to him.

As a hobby programmer myself some years ago I always made notes in my program files for important functions/procedures as what they do.
IMHO Luke knows what can be done modding wise and what not. It is also in Luke's hands to extend the modkit so more functions become available.

Luke made Banished as survival game and because of modding it turned into survival game annex city building. I think that many players play Banished to make nice looking towns with lots of variety in buildings and production chains, ghosted items and that the survival part depletes after a couple of years. That is how I play at least. If I play that is. My guess is that players are more prone to play longer on a map then with vanilla because of all the mods and that is in itself a good thing.
I am also eager to hear from Luke about the success of Banished and what Modding have done to his creation.

As for the buildings too big I explained this to @Nilla in another thread. I personally think that a lot of buildings are too small. I understand that modders make small buildings because lots of players seem to like them but it is not my cup of tea.  I don't like to walk through my front door to find out that if I am taking 1 step further I am standing on the back porch :)

Production buildings need room for storage and to work, simple as that and honestly besides the church and maybe the salt works I think the buildings are just fine in size.

The Herbalist, 5x5 incl road, is a smaller version then Vanilla 6x7 as this was a request. It functions indeed the same as the vanilla herbalist. The Herbalist maybe not fit a certain town setups but so does not the vanilla herbalist in that case.  Some modded buildings will never fit a certain town setup because of either colors,size, function, and/or looks but there is not much to be done about that. With so many mods released players should be able to find their needs for a certain map/goal.

i think you took me wrong. i find it interesting how  mods from different modders can work together and compliment each other so well.it is neat how they work like that. i agree i think LUKE would be amazed and not recognize the game now.what he intended is different than how it has been changed. he should understand the coding though.  hmmm maybe NECORA will teach the banies how to ride horses someday. then everyone will need these saddles. :D

Why every mod @elemental? Would mean that every item in every mod is crap.

Let's stay with your example. To make bakery item 1 "bread" from flour makes sense and is a great addition to Banished. It's absolutely worth the effort, pkm size and loading time. No player would think about how to keep it away from the game and the production menu would not be confused because it is just one. With item 2 and 3 already the question comes "what for" but it can make sense too if produced from another raw material or with a higher trade value for export if people have enough food. But what for bakery item 4 .. 30? We both can not find an answer. Probably it's just unnecessary. Unnecessary effort, mod size and loading time. It would displace bread in game. Auto purchasing for grain players would find a totally overcrowded inventory and have to follow your advice to tell every merchant to not bring it. Clicking 29 buttons in the order menu they will scold about what the hell this modder had in mind. Not to speak about the production menu of the bakery with a scrollbar for 30 rows. It would let the player alone with the damn question "what for". :)

I agree with @Tom Sawyer.

Yes, agree and that's in line with what Luke made from the beginning.
One type of berries - mushroom - fish....

i didn't take what ELEMENTAL said as saying mods are crap. i don't think he intended it that way. i actually laughed when i saw his post. it was like a tongue in cheek way of throwing the arguement back on our heads.more like he agreed to disagree with it. i wonder by now if he is trying to be stubborn on purpose for the fun of it.

I agree 100% with Tom, Nilla, and Kid.  I've stated my opinion on this several times before in regards to inventories and merchant boats.  Some people like mega items, fine, good for them, but if that mega bakery is added to a mod set (or added to an old favorite set, the rest of us are force to use it or sacrifice it, what is that phrase some people are so fond of rudely using, "If you don't like it, don't use it."  One has to wonder how many times those people are actually using it if at all. My suggestion would be for modders to keep set items reasonable and make a separate optional mod like Greedy's Bakery or CeeCee's Hog Butchery or whatever.  Then those mega players can leave all the good "crap" for the rest of us.  AMEN

The discussion has cooled down a bit, and I got some time to go on with this game. ;)

Actually, there's not much to say; it's not a pleasant settlement, but it grows steady. There's not much to tell, not a very exciting game at the moment. I have played about 5 years every evening the past few days, that's enough, so it will take some time.

We've discussed the preference of different fuel in @Necora´s blog. @brads3 and @Tom Sawyer mean, that the Bannis prefer firewood over other fuels. I checked firewood and coal a long time ago, before the modkit, and I am pretty sure, that it wasn't that way. So I was a bit confused. But then I realized, we could all be right. There has been a number of patches and I know, that people have complained about Bannis stealing away coal from the blacksmiths. I also know, that Luke changed some things, people compained about. I find some unfortunately, like the big city fires, but others rather good, like the death marches, I don't know about firewood/coal, but to make the Bannis prefere firewood as fuel, could also be such a change.

In this settlement I have charcoal and firewood. I have looked into it again. Now, I'm sure, that they have access to both. I produce more charcoal than firewood, (charcoal is more efficient, less raw material, higher productivity) and there's more charcoal than firewood in both houses and stores. Most people live in the area of a market and as I looked, most the time they had both firewood and charcoal, but always more charcoal than firewood and once firewood was missing in the small port at the docks. I've also looked into the houses. Many of them have only charcoal, some only firewood and some have both.  I've noticed one maybe interesting thing; I've seen up to 250 charcoal in some houses, but never more than 120 firewood. Since I seldom make charcoal as fuel, I don't know the weight and I'm also not so familiar with the CC houses and how much fuel, they can store, but normally I don't see 200 firewood or more in a house. That could be an explanation, why there's so much more charcoal than firewood in my houses. They can carry more of it each time, the markets also stores more, the vendors get more at same time, so it's also better and faster distributed than firewood. As said in that other thread, I have no thatch and I think CC doesn't use coal as fuel in homes, but I will make some firebundle and see how they work.

I´ve also decided to give you your crumbles, @brads3, even if it looks like you can support your new settlement very well without them. ;) You haven't clearly said, what you really want, but I can guess, that it's my usual "numbers". I didn't intend to test the CC buildings in that way, but of cause, I can't change how I am. I look at production and economy anyway for myself, so I might as well write down some of it. But you have to be patient one or two days more. At the beginning of this game I took every nomad, so I still have enough uneducated to mess things up. But I haven't taken any new for some time, so the education will improve.

I'll post two pictures of two parts of this messy settlement. The menus shows goods in store and goods in homes.

wow,this town has grown fast. there is a lot of different productions going on.
    NILLA, i didn't make that comment to make you think. it was more said in fun.i don't have anything specific i want for a crumb. i do think that different players with different styles can have ideas that might be helpful back and forth. sorry if i confused you. i do like to have you test mods,especially when they are in development. i think you can help modders with the balancing.
    i use a couple mods that could change the firewood and charcoal needs. i think the no coal mod overrides the charcoal. it may actually just stop them from using coal. by the time i make charcoal,there is so many houses to try to check each 1.  when i get to testing the new pine forest,i  should remember to keep an eye on the house inventory more. as long as the bannies aren't starving or cold,i don't check the houses. unless i am looking for a specific item. i do think it would be good to know which item they use to heat houses and why.it might make a difference on how we use the thatch mod.

I don't think you need a "No coal" mod, when you are playing CC. I thought, that mod only prevents people from carrying coal into their homes. They don't do that in CC anyhow, but I like them to use charcoal. It's the most efficient fuel of them all, it needs very little logs to produce. It might of cause be different, if you have some additional mods, that use charcoal for other things. But I still haven't loaded any new mods. I'm still not through all the CC buildings. I will probably not build all, but I will test a few more, to see if they could be used to make export goods later in game, when I need more food than I can produce.

I haven't build all CC houses either, especially not the more expensive ones but I have started to upgrade some of the more simple houses. There are certainly a lot of different houses, in very different styles. From time to time I can buy a few building supply and a few homeware; enough for the speed I'm building. I also produced a few building supply. That's a slow process but at least I can produce some, if I need more than I can buy.

My population is now almost full educated and I have started to make some notes of production numbers, for me but also to be able to give my friend Brads his crumbles. ;) The notes are a bit confusing for myself and they would be even more for someone else. To make it easier, I've written down the products from the inventory list; starting with products from chains. When I'm not busy developing and managing my town, I look at the production of some goods. I calculate a trade win/loss of each product and will "rate" them from A to F depending on annual trade/production -profit. (I even gave some extremely profitable products an AA, maybe unsuitable but ale is among them ;)  ) That's the way I do it for me, to decide what I'm going to produce, what to sell and what to buy. Others build decorations in that time, I calculate! ;)  :-\

The numbers are annual trade profit for one worker.
AA >2000 (extremely high production and/or tradeprofit)
A :>1000 (very high production and/or tradeprofit)
B: 600-100 (high production)
C: 300-600 (good production)
D: 100-300 (small profit)
E:  0-100  (very small profit)
F loss

Ale (from cherries): 5 AA      (This means, that each ale has a trade profit of 5; you make one ale worth 8 from 3 cherries each worth 1, the production of my brewer is around 500 each year, so the profit is about 2500; more than 2000-> AA)
Barrel 0 E
Bricks F ?         (if it's not changed from previous versions, I have no brickmaker, yet (?))
Bronze 7,7 C       
Building supply DEF   (The 3 first recipes give a profit the others a loss)
Candles 0,5 E
Charcoal 2,8 AA 
Copper 6C
Copperpipe F      (I made some but don't remember/didn't note how large the loss was, but it was quite large)
Fancy Furniture 20 A
Firebundle 0,5 DE
Firewood 3,5 A-AA
Flour F ?            (if it's not changed from previous versions)
Furnace fuel -2 F
Furniture 12 B
Glass F            (I made some but don't remember how high the loss is)

this list will be continued.....

From these products I produce;
ale for export from cherries (produced and bought),
barrels (because I need some for my "tasty"  :-\ surströmming and can't buy enough),
one of bronze/copper/tin for export from bought ore,
very little building supply from bought materials,
a few candles (only enough to upgrade my mines, otherwise I sell wax and tallow)
charcoal, as fuel in homes,
fancy furniture for export when I have enough hardwood, otherwise furniture,
firewood, mainly to use as fuel in homes but I also have some in my ports but only sell a little of it. I think, I will need all firewood, I can produce for fuel, maybe even buy some later in this game. In that case I will also open my firebundler.

One question to you @brads3 (or if anyone else knows) You talked about a greenhouse, where you can use bonemeal to grow exotic fruit. I have built one in some previous game, but I can't find it anywhere. Can you help me out?

I'm not really keen on showing pictures from this town. I usually don't build very nice towns compared to many of you guys, but this one........ it's worse than usual. Messy! Many buildings are so nice but not the way I put them together. :( :-[ I made some smaller impressions, doesn't look as bad as an over all look. I can't believe what I'm producing, if you look at the first picture.  :P But I had a lot of fish, I wanted to do something whit. First I tried to smoke it, (personally I love smoked fish) but it was not good. To make a few barrels of smoked fish, you need more logs (!?) than you need to produce charcoal to heat a woodhouse a year! The second picture shows a piece of my industrial area. Some buildings produce only "F goods ";) , so they are closed. I haven't demolished them. I'm not that familiar with all of these products and who knows, I might need some of them later, lossmaker or not.

the tropical greenhouse is an add-on mod. you can find it in  KARY'S KONTRAPTIONS section.
it is always interesting to read your production notes.shows how different things can be played.you may be right about the coal not being used any more. however with out a lot of testing with so many mods,i will leave the "no burn" mod in. better safe than sorry and it does no harm. i disagree with using charcoal to heat houses. if you had to heat your own house would you burn wood to create charcoal during the summer? i think not. you would use the warm weather to griow food.coal might be used if you lived in a mountain area like west virginia. since you could dig up coal like rocks. most areas of the world don't have that option.if we were building industrial era towns,then i would say the coal might make sence.if someone was building a mining town, then maybe there they would want to burn coal.
   as to trades. when i 1st started playing banished, i took it as small group of people left on the earth trying to survive. because of that, i seldom used trade. there was nobody left to trade with.where does the merchant come from?? obviously you can't get seeds and livestock that way. you also can't have nomads. over time, i adjusted my play style and accepted trading and markets as part of the game. i still do not use it much though.
     with CC,stone trades at a high price of 7. it is an item that you have lots of at start and collect quickly while clearing for buildings and crops. i used to trade stone to aquire seeds quicker. with more mods,now  i use more stone and have times i actually run out of it. the other thing is i look at it like a cheat now. is it realistic that surviving towns would want the stone? would a trader really want to carry the heavy rocks and sink?  play styles change over time.
    i still try not to trade things i need a good supply of. food i do swaps for other food to get a variety. i generally don't buy food unless i am in trouble.
firewood is one of those need items that i don't trade.if i need totrade it then i could trade reeds. profit may be different but reeds i can grow back quicker than the firewood. coats i usually have extras and do trade. lately i trade survival coats,pelt coats ,and hide coats. i use the fur coats.
    you are right about how CC can be confusing.there is a lot of items and sme work together. some chains there are ways to work around them,not all. RED's NMT mod solves many of these. his smokehouse,meat dryer, and smoker don't need barrels.most times i don't use many of the CC buildings. opther pieces of it i use all the time.
     i agree with your math overall. one thing you may want to figure though. we never consider feeding the bannies in the equations. most time it is 1 or 2 workers so it isn't a big deal. however,if you are trading CC high grade items, you should figure it in. how many workers does it take to process the materials to make bronze or copper and to fuel the chain of buildings?? for every 5 workers,you need 1 worker producing food to feed them all.

    CC is more industrial aged than many at WOB play.some of the chains themselves do make sence though. like the food preservation options. you mentioned before about making food so it degrades,rots and decays over time. if you want to go that route,we have RED's pottery to use for preserving foods. much like the indains did. you may find some buildings you do like.  i use the old dairy because it gives butter and cheese both as output at the same time.you don't have to choose 1 or the other.

Of cause you are right about the charcoal; no one would use it to heat a house. In life it was industrial only. (And now for barbecue) As far as I know, it was a small additional income for farmers in forest areas; a work they did in winter, when there was no fieldwork. The coal was sold to mining companies. But if you play CC; it's different. You know, we're on another planet, people age 4 years every season and charcoal is the most efficient fuel. ;)

I like to trade. I do not always trade a lot, sometimes I play totally without trade. But, yes in a normal game I use trade as an additional way to support my Bannis. I seldom use the boring obvious firewood. I rather like to export a surplus of a lot of different things. Things that change as the game grows. This game is special. Since I only will build only one of each production building, I will have to trade to keep my people alive later. I'm pretty sure, that there are more houses than production buildings out there. Now it's no problem at all. I rather produce too much of everything. I investigate the different buildings, to see if it later could be run to produce profitable export goods.

At the moment I don't use many workers to feed the chains. As I say I'm investigating. I buy cupper and tin ore to test the production in the foundry. I don't think these will belong to my end game trading products, anyway. I would probably need the foundry to produce iron for tools. Unless I would find out, that it's more profitable to produce bronze, sell it and import tools. I don't think so, but for this game, I will concider all such possibilities. :)

Numbers for the rest of the goods I've produced so far:

Hardtack        0,75 C
Hide Coat      5 BD
Iron               2,5 D
Iron Tools      4,5 C
Jade statue   40 B
Joist             -38 F
Lamp oil           F  (if it's not changed, it was a loss)
Linen               B 4,5
Marble statue  65 B
Pottery            8 D
Rope                  F   (if it's not changed, it was a big loss)
Rough tools     -0,3 F
Smoked fish      2,5 B*
Steel tools        3,5 CD
Stone statue    14 D
Surströmming   2,9 B*
Survival coat    10,5 A
Rice wine             2 C
Wool coat         10 A
* It's hard to calculate a trade value for high price food. Not all of it will land in the ports. I use to estimate that ½ of it is eaten ½ exported. If you want to produce this products, to feed your Bannis, the reasons must be that they love these products, very much. It's no good business.

This picture doesn't look all too messy. The small extensions on the red and brown houses are nice (the white house will also get some as soon as I need more homes). It's actually homes! A family can live there. But since the main house is big, I guess there are a lot of space for everyone. :)

I had some problems at the beginning building one of each F-variations. (There are a few mistakes, I've found two blue houses instead of one blue and one brown. Not too many of the kind, just the wrong. But since blue is a rare color. I will leave this mistake.) You can see on these country houses, how I make it now. As far as I can see, there are 4 F-key variations (there are actually 6 but I can see no difference on 2 of them, so I build 4 of each level). I set the footprint of all variations in the same area, even if i don't need all at that time. First I get the right model, second the settlement doesn't look quite as messy, with similar houses in groups.

those are the PIILGRIM colonial houses. hopefully he returns and adds to ths mod set. i don't think you would have a food problem. you have like 20 crops plus the orchard foresters. depending on how you play it of course. it is good to see that the items i do trade,you have rated higher. like the rice wine and coats.the rice paddy can produce over 1000 rice so the rice is easy to accumulate and trade.

@brads3, I will not build a field with every crop, at least not as long as I can prevent it. I will only build one of each kind. So far 2 fields (vanilla, transparent), 2 plantages, 4 orchards, 8 pastures. (I don't have that many yet but will expand when I need more food) I also think there are some more types out there, I can use later. You saw a part of my farming area on that last picture, the orchards and fields are big. I made the orchard in (more or less) maximum size. If I remember it right CC orchards are immortal  :-\. The fields will grow, when I need more food.

No numbers this time.

I've played 40 years, the population grows fast at the moment. More than 300 inhabitants live in Osborona. I'm still exploring CC buildings to find future main export goods. I'm not through yet but next time, I guess I will have some more numbers. There are not that many more CC homes to be built; some upgrades, a few versions of some advanced types. So I decided to load three more mods.

- Kid Row Houses: Business and Housing, (it's one of my old favourites) and I haven't used the new textures
- DS Town Houses.

I have a question to you @RedKetchup; I thought about loading NMT (as you know, it's also an old favourite of mine) but I didn't really dared to. It's a 1.06 version. Would it make problem together with this 1.07 mods?

These Bruggen Houses! Lovely!! They are perfect for this game: 3 sizes, 6 colors, 4 types of each, that's 72 different buildings! :) I haven't been this excited about using houses since the red cottages from @Tom Sawyer and the 3 story NMT houses from @RedKetchup. There are a lot of lovely houses out there but to me these 3 kind of homes stands out. I will make some effort to build something nice from these homes; no promise, just an attempt.  :-\

I also have one question to you @Discrepancy; the name Bruggen? The model you showed us is from Bergen in Norway. Is it a mistake, your own name or do you plan to extend this mod with houses from Bruegge in Belgium; Bruggen a combination of Bruegge and Bergen? Bruegge is also an ancient town with medieval rowhouses, that would fit in Banished and in this mod, but a slightly different continental look. (first picture)

I just saw something strange. I ordered the baker to make bannocks. He's also using the recipe for bannocks, flour and water but he makes..........hardtack. Hm..... a mind of his own! ??? But finally, I think I can show you a picture of a part of the town, that looks nice! There are no numbers this time, just to prevent some withdrawal problems, I'll show the production menu from the town hall. ;)

i  can't say if the orchards are immortal. i use a immortal tree mod and a forever orchard mod. that way they produce the 1st year.
  NMT would work if you had added the compatibility 1.07 mod. i wouldn't add it in mid game.it might crash. you built all the variattions of all the  townhouses and  fancy colonials? that is a lot of houses.

Quote from: Nilla on June 02, 2017, 03:33:23 AM

I have a question to you @RedKetchup; I thought about loading NMT (as you know, it's also an old favourite of mine) but I didn't really dared to. It's a 1.06 version. Would it make problem together with this 1.07 mods?

the only problem that can happends :

clay chain : if you do, i would suggest to use the clay chain 3.0 too ontop of NMT2.04. it fixes the limits and flags of bricks and clay.
but you need it only if you have another mod like CC which changed it. i cannot tell that flags of @Tom Sawyer though, i think he didnt updated for 1.0.7

so i think it is all good. 1.0.6 is fully operational with 1.0.6 till you dont change the material flags :)

Thanks, Red. I'll give it a try as my next mod. But I will play with the one I have a little bit longer.

And yes Brads, I think the orchards are immortal in CC but doesn't grow faster than any other trees. (or at least, they live 20-30 years without one dead tree)

I'm still testing a lot of production buildings. Like before; some are good, some are bad. I can't remember, that I've ever made tinned fruit before, as I've played CC. But this time I have very much cherries from my large orchards. So I started a test and yes; we can can cherries! Yes we can!  ;) It's even quite profitable, especially if you sell the product. But unfortunately you can't make jam from cherries, ??? I had to buy some apples to try the preservist. It's also OK, especially if you don't produce the bottles or the sugar yourself. Here are some more numbers:

Tin (Tin mine) : 6 D , the productivity is very low. I misunderstood the text, that says; "upgrade the mine for significant more production". I thought it would produce faster, but it looks like it only contains more material
Copper (copper mine) 6E  even worse than the tin mine. I did upgrade this one, too but just so that I could demolish it.
Bread (DS, Bryggen bakery) 0,6 D
Bannocks (DS Bryggen bakery) 0,75 C (but it makes hardtack !) ???
Tinned fruit 2,25 A
Sugar (cane) 0,57 E
Tobacco 0,33 E
Fruit Jam 1,8 B
Silk cocoon 3 D
Cured leather 6C
Silk 2 B

First picture

Year 45, 329 inhabitants. This is my messy industrial area. It doesn't look nice but it works. It's built around the large stockpile and the large industrial store. Storage space is a small problem. I have to build different than usual. I like many small stockpiles and barns but I can only build each once, so this is the way it has to be!  :-\

Second picture

My harbour area under development. For the first time in this game, I produce less food than I use. I will increase the size of my fields. They could be built 30*30. I have no idea if such large fields work. Have anyone tried? How many farmers do you need on that one? Theoretically it could produce 6300 each year. But I'm not sure. It looked like 8 farmers on a ~20*20 field had some trouble. Unless I used the "cheaty" pick-up function, it didn't work well. Even then they have problems, to get everything in the barns before next spring. You can see it on the third picture from my farming area. When the fields grow bigger, I will need more farmers and they need more houses in this area.

 :) nice town.

Quote from: Nilla on June 02, 2017, 03:33:23 AM
I also have one question to you @Discrepancy; the name Bruggen? The model you showed us is from Bergen in Norway. Is it a mistake, your own name or do you plan to extend this mod with houses from Bruegge in Belgium; Bruggen a combination of Bruegge and Bergen? Bruegge is also an ancient town with medieval rowhouses, that would fit in Banished and in this mod, but a slightly different continental look. (first picture)

it should be Bryggen - the y does look like a u in some fonts. Bryggen  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryggen)(the dock), also known as Tyskebryggen is a series of Hanseatic commercial buildings lining the eastern side of the Vågen harbour in Bergen, Norway.

But thanks for the info and picture on Bruegge, maybe another style to eventually undertake.  ;)

QuoteI just saw something strange. I ordered the baker to make bannocks. He's also using the recipe for bannocks, flour and water but he makes..........hardtack. Hm..... a mind of his own! ???

:) yes that is normal behavior if you are playing with this mod under CC. It utilizes the same Resource file, but my mod changes the display name to bannocks.

i usually do 10x10 fields so have no info on 20x.if you figure out the pickup option it is suppose to be handy. i never seem to get very good results with it.
to me it doesn't help much.i guess if you had a early frost maybe it might.
    you say my tobacco is low but if i don't grow it how am i to smoke it? i don't want to run out.lol i like having mods that help. i have a few different ways to can that don't require the tin.
    i still have issues with processing food. the way i think  logically it should work is you get more out for the food you put in. so it should increase your food reserves.it seems to increase value. that doesn't help the banniies because 1 food is 1 rather it;s value is 1 or 5 makes no difference.i do process some but after i get a good amount stored.
    with the issues i have lately and your numbers,i wonder how much we can affect the production with mod orders.i haven't considered that before.
i use the oder for building style and functions.if the game works i go with it. i haven't looked up numbers from older mods and tried to use it to make the productions higher.i did see EB's oilpress make the sunflower crop overpowering on production before.

Thank you @Discrepancy for explaining Bryggen. Stupid of me, I should have remembered the name of this old/rebuilt part of the town, I've been there several times.  :-[ Anyway, I like this mod very much! :)

@Discrepancy & @Nilla that just started a wonderful little historical tour via google & wiki ;)  Wow ... 
What a way to spend Sunday morning, imagining sipping latte whilst peeking into these beautiful buildings and learning the history of them.  :D

@Nilla , your waterfront area looks really nice with those new houses of Discrepancy's  :)

Yes, @Abandoned they are great!

I went on playing a little bit more yesterday but I can see now, that I made no screenshots. I thought I did. It's a part of the fun writing this blog: go back to your screenshots and see what you made the day before. I will start the game and make some at the point where I stopped.

First picture

My huge fields and the rowhouse settlement for my farmers. I can't recommend to build such large fields, definitely not! You need a lot of farmers and still they don't do their job properly. I have 12-15 farmer assigned to each field but there are never more than a handfull there working at the same time. The rest I don't know what they are doing. That path tool somehow have a bug, it doesn't always show where people work/live.  :( It will soon be frost and there's still a lot of pumpkins and beetroots to be harvested. I just counted: 4 working farmers on the pumpkin field, 3 on the beetroot. Many of the people you can see are laborers, carrying the vegetables into the barns. At least, they are doing their job. :) Also in spring; the fields aren't done until summer. Your 10*10 fields make much more sense @brads3!

Second picture

I now have my first load order problem.  :( The White Swan from Kid's rowhousemod didn't want to produce any cider. It was only used as store, until I changed the load order and put the Raw House Production above CC. I hope this will not bring any new problems. If I remember it right, the White Swan used to produce more. Maybe not quite as much as a vanilla brewery but close to it. Have you changed any numbers @kid1293? Or is it still some compability problem?

I guess I will have to cut these weird looking birches hanging at the tunnel!  ;D
I think I also ought to close one or two of the water towers. The two bakers, who use DS recipe, don't seem to need that much water. I also should get rid of some whale blubber. I buy flour, have done it all the time. Lately I also was a bit short on proteins, so I've bought some milk.

I can't attach any screenshots. This happens now and then. I don't know it it's my internet connection or this web page. I'll post the text and will try to add the pictures later.

@Nilla what is that building with the circle of brickwork and wall around it?  It must be one of cc's I don't recall seeing.

That building is a big storage. Very good to have on that spot! :)

Quote from: Nilla on June 04, 2017, 08:20:01 AM
I now have my first load order problem.  :( The White Swan from Kid's rowhousemod didn't want to produce any cider. It was only used as store, until I changed the load order and put the Raw House Production above CC. I hope this will not bring any new problems. If I remember it right, the White Swan used to produce more. Maybe not quite as much as a vanilla brewery but close to it. Have you changed any numbers @kid1293? Or is it still some compability problem?

I have double checked. I didn't change anything in the pub.
I don't recall if CC also has cider. (I never use CC).

Not much gaming time the past few days. My daughter who was in Australia the past year was visiting. But now she's left and I will relax with a bit more Banshed.

I have loaded NMT and the Garden Wall Utility to the game. I hope it will work!

No, @kid1293 , I don't think there's any cider in CC, at least I haven't seen any, but I haven't all buildings, so there might be some somewhere. I just started the game; The Swan produced 70 cider last year. As far as I remember it use to be 300-400. There is a "normal" brewery close and for some reason, ale often lands in the Swan. I guess it doesn't produce any cider, if there's ale in the store. The problem might be, that ale isn't consumed in the CC brewery. I will continue to keep an eye on it and maybe build another one in another location, where no ale brewery is close.

@Nilla  300-400 is normal. I can't think of anything that is causing this.
Vanilla ingredients. Same numbers as ale.  ?

BUILD a lucury cellar between the 2 so they put the ale and cider in it.it will only take 1 square space. i don't remember troubles with it before as long as i had enough apples. i useually ship most of the cider. CC should have cider in a distillery i believe. i always used the swan cause yopu don't need the building materials to build it.

First picture
The alcohol store might be a good idea @brads3. But I'm not so sure. The alcohol is transported to the ports fast anyway. You can see, there's more or less nothing in the stores. I've put alcohol in every port, just to get it out of the way, as fast as I can. But it brings no change: My first Swan still doesn't work well, but  my second, out in the farming area works rather normal. So, it's no compability problem. I've rather found another reason: Bad location! There are 3 breweries in that area. Even if I have a lot of cherries, they don't always get there fast enough for all of them. I've noticed, that it's not always cherries at the big market, and seldom any in that big store. I've tried to use a trading post to gather cherries into that area but 5000 cherries were fast gone. There are several smaller markets, from where it's closer to the big store, than to the area, where the cherries are produced. Somehow, the Swan seems to have a worse situation, than both the other breweries; 310 quay brewery, 490 vanilla, 40 Swan. I can't understand that large difference.

Second picture
I had the "funny" freeze bug". It's been a long time. For those who doesn't know it. Be happy! If you got it, it means, that everyone, and I do mean everyone from all over the map goes to one special building, to get warm. Like if it was the single spot on the whole big map warm enough. Those who are lucky, starts their journey towards this excellent warmth, close enough to get there, but everyone isn't that fortunate. Those who comes from far, freeze or starve to death. Nothing can stop people who has started these death marches. But if you can identify the "interesting spot" and set it to demolition, no one new will start to go there. In my case, it's one of these raw houses. It looks like the entrance is half blocked, close to the river. It might be such things, that causes this but I have had it in (to me) fully normal buildings as well.

Third picture
The NMT salter doesn't work with CC salt. The baker (!)(I've always loved this profession in your food process buildings @RedKetchup) just walk from the stockpile to the saltery and back, carrying 50 salt, but doesn't deliver.

I'm not sure, if I want to go on with this game. It doesn't really "catch me". It's easier than I thought. I have the 1000 inhabitants, I wanted from the start. I see no big problems for at least another 500. Maybe I'll just say goodbye.  :-\

@Nilla  - I have gone over the files again and can't find what has happened.
Did this happen after you started with the modular Rowhouses?


Only one thing comes to mind. I have a very small storage in the pub. ( 300 , same as vanilla)
If that limit is reached you maybe need to take the cider to trade port.

@Nilla the NMT old Salty doesn't work without CC either.  In my last map North Mining Town built it next to the salt mine and storage and laborer would take salt to old salty but not leave it there, took it back to storage.  I told Red about problem.  I demolished old salty and built old smokey.

NILLA, i know we discussed it but did you ever load the COMPATABILITY 1.07 above the CC??
ABANDONED,that is strange.hopefully TOM has a better explanation or solution. i wonder if you had a mod that was 1.07 override the flags.

yeah salt has been changed of flags in many 1.0.7 mods. for me was a textile back in day ... but now can be many things ^^.
there is so much things in NMT. need so much courage to adapt those ^^

North Mountain Town, no 107 new flag mods used, The North v5.1 for 106 & Medieval Town v 2.04 No salt delivered to Old Salty

Quote from: Abandoned on June 09, 2017, 11:06:59 AM
North Mountain Town, no 107 new flag mods used, The North v5.1 for 106 & Medieval Town v 2.04 No salt delivered to Old Salty

this is because north changed it to something else

the problem though is my fault, like i said lately, the ALL profession buildings should have ALL the flags.
back in time, i wasnt awared of this golden rule and it makes the building flags-proof; no matter how someone can decide to give another flag... it would still always work fine.

@RedKetchup good you know where that problem was so it does not carry over to new update modular.  What wonderful sets NMT and the North both are.  :)

Quote from: Abandoned on June 09, 2017, 01:05:36 PM
@RedKetchup good you know where that problem was so it does not carry over to new update modular.  What wonderful sets NMT and the North both are.  :)

indeed !!!
we have many beautiful sets in here :) not only NMT and North, all @Discrepancy , @kid1293 , @embx61 , @Necora , @Bartender & @despo20  stuffs are GREAT too !!

I agree with you @RedKetchup and @Abandoned; many great sets of mods out there! The list of new mods to test is never empty! It also makes a lot of fun to return to "old favourits" And most things are really good! :)

First picture

@kid1293: I'm sure; there's nothing wrong with the Swan! I turned the two CC breweries off. And......... look at the picture. The production looks very much different! (They weren't off the whole year). Also the production from the other Swan out in the farming area increased. It used to be decent; around 300. After I turned the other breweries off, it increased to 420. So it looks like it's some influence from the CC breweries here as well, only less than on the closer building. I have ran vanilla breweries and your Swan together on other maps but never noticed any problems. @brads3 and other CC players; have you seen something like this?

Second picture
I have decided to put an end to this experiment. At least it proves, how many mods there is out there. I haven't even used many of those, I planned to use, but as I said. I thought it would be a bigger challenge.

The town is very messy. You can see it on this picture from the "hart" of the settlement.

Third picture
Of cause this NMT settlement is too dense; the buildings much too close to eachother. Sorry @RedKetchup for the misuse. This is a great mod. An all time favourite!

You can see, that food is no problem. A safe game all the time:~ 1 year consumption in the stores. I like it that way. Not neccessarily because it´s safe. Of cause it is. You must never fear starvation. But more important is, that the distribution of all food categories to all parts of the settlement works much better, with these larger stores.

Some more pictures

Fourth picture

The baker who carried salt around, has bin reassigned to dry meat instead. And yes @brads3, I have the compability mod, but I think, it only has an influence on the trade.

I had some small fuel issues. You can see, that the amount was slowly getting down from year to year. But then I realized, that there were 2 CC sawmills, I haven't built, yet. You can see one in my NMT settlement on the last picture. Although a big sawmill with 2 worker doesn't produce more than a small chopper, it saved the situation. For once, I must make a compliment to the CC balancing. The sawmills are good balanced; not the chopper! Anyhow, fuel would have been a bigger problem than food (and other essentials) if I had chosen to go on with this town. As far as I know, there are not so many more fuel producers to load. But I would have managed. I produce enough high value goods to buy some fuel.


Fifth picture

Again the big fields. It's early spring. I have 12-16 farmers assigned to each field. They should be crowded, but aren't! Conclusion: big fields doesn't really work. The sowing is done late and some crop often freeze. Somehow the game doesn't let all assigned farmers work the fields at the same time.

You can see the production numbers. I have to buy some food. No problem so far. I have more export goods, than I need and can increase some production, if I want to. The limiting thing would probably be the number of available ports. But there are some I haven't built yet and I don't buy everything the merchants bring now, so I guess I could feed another 1000 people without all too much trouble.

Sixth picture

Big pastures are no problem. It takes a lot of time until the herds are big enough to give meat but now they produce a lot.

You can see my stores. Some things like flour and sugar are 100% imported. I also see that I've forgotten to put feathers in the ports. I used to produce survival coats, but since I was a bit short on fuel, I started to turn the reed into firebundles instead and forgot about the feathers.

what are the size of your crops and orchards ?
and also where from this brownish crop to the left ? i like it

just to report.my salty works fine with CC.

Maximum size of fields and orchards is 30*30. The largest are of that size, the others a bit smaller. The brown field is a CC plantation. (I like the look, too, looks more like a freshly plowed field, than the light vanilla soil, that looks very dry and not very fertile!) It's meant for not eatable things (different limit) and I do grow cotton there from time to time, but food works as well, so if I have enough cotton I grow something else.

You say your NMT salter works, @brads3? How did you do that?

mine always worked. i think you all are broken or you broke RED's mods.

I'm glad you found out what happened, @Nilla .
And I'm glad bannies get their cider. :)