World of Banished

Sightseeing => Village Blogs => Topic started by: irrelevant on December 23, 2014, 06:52:58 PM

Title: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 23, 2014, 06:52:58 PM
ETA: The first 200 years (up to page 7) is just getting GP established and going for achievements. Along the way I started to rely increasingly on auto-trading to relieve some of the tedium of trading. After getting the tenure achievement, I went on experimenting with auto-trading, and with letting the town run unattended for long periods of time.

So having grown bored with the mod-induced lack of challenge, I have decided to start a new, unmodded town aimed at getting the rest of the achievements.

These are: Uneducated, Jack of All Trades, Firefighter, Miner, Mason, Builder, and Tenure.

My plan is to get all of these achievements without building any schools at all. Well, obviously I'll need at least one school for JOAT and Builder.

Starting out with a Gatherer, a Forester in a clear space set to plant only, another forester to harvest logs and stone, and a hunter. As always, I put down two farms immediately, to give food a bump. A single house only to get through the first winter.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on December 23, 2014, 08:34:22 PM
Year 2

Added a chopper, an herbalist, a blacksmith underway, and 4 more houses. Need to get 2 more couples hooked up in houses, and that will be it for a couple of years. Of course there is a serious imbalance between M and F children.  ::)

Going to need more storage soon, the choice is between a barn and a market. Probly will opt for the market, it is so much more useful.

May abandon one of the farms next year, food is not an issue just now. The issue now is logs.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on December 23, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
ah ha! this is why you asked about uneducated production ! hehe
i answered your question  :D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on December 24, 2014, 02:48:22 AM
Very good.

I am sure this will be a lot of fun. For you to play, sweat and complain about your unproductive people and for us to read about it. I wish you luck!

Do you really think you can make the 200 years? I was never close on that, but I know you are a patient person. :)

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on December 24, 2014, 06:09:39 AM
@nolla, yes, I think I can do that, I just have to be careful not to over-expand population. With all uneducated workers, providing for a big town for that long would be very difficult.

I'm leaving town for a few days, so I won't be working on Gopher Prairie again before Saturday. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, everyone!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on December 30, 2014, 05:06:55 PM
Year 4

Feeling the uneducated pinch. Still have the original 10 educated workers, but it's tough controlling where they work. Ideally I'd like to have an educated blacksmith for as long as possible, but he keeps swapping out. Educated foresters mostly, and farmers, and the gatherer. I don't really mind uneducated fishers, and uneducated farmers wouldn't be so bad, the main thing is 2 logs/stone/iron vs 3 per tree/rock.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 01, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Year 13

Got the original settlement (Village One) stabilized finally, food and firewood self-sufficient. Tools are going to be a problem, as @Nilla has previously reported.

A second settlement (Village Two) begun across the river. Things will be much less densely concentrated, as more foresters and gatherers are needed to provide logs and food for a given pop. Once trade is going, can begin to transition forest to farmland, but more farms will be needed to support a given level of pop.

The question I have for @Nilla (or anyone) now is, will quarries/mines still produce the same total of stone/iron, just at a slower pace, or will the total output before exhaustion be only 2/3s what would be produced with educated workers?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 02, 2015, 03:09:15 AM
Nice to see you back @irrelevant.

I can say nothing to mines and quarries with uneducated workers. In the games I played without schools, I never built any. They are inefficient with educated workers and with uneducated? Wouldn't like to think about that. And besides; I never had enough spare workers. Until the last few years in that big fast game, everyone was needed to produce food, fuel and to build.

I have tried another uneducated game the last days: I wanted to test if my assumption; that it isn't possible to build as fast as I did in my Doolin without mods, was right. And it was. At least I couldn't do it. I ran out of buildingmaterials. My workers were occupied elsewhere, so mines and quarries wouldn't have used much. I had a couple of trading ports, but too few to get enough stones and iron delivered and there were no use building more, because I didn't have enough to sell. I didn't blog thatone because I suspected from the start, that it would be a short game.  ;) :-\
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 02, 2015, 08:11:18 AM
@Nilla I can understand why you never had enough workers, with your fast expansion! However, I think if I expand more slowly, and concentrate on building up a food surplus (you know how I do  ;) ), I will be able to rely mainly on hunting, gathering, and fishing for food, with some farming to supplement needed grain, and will have sufficient workers left over for mining. Going to need more foresters than usual to provide logs, at least until I reach pop 150 and can get some big rafts of logs coming in thru trade, so hunting and gathering will fit in well there.

I don't see my pop expanding beyond a few hundred, 400-500 tops. I'm envisioning a few more low-density hamlets, similar to what I have already got started here. These will be spread farther apart than my normal towns, to allow for the large forester operations I believe I will need.

The three big challenges I see are building materials, tools, and goods for trade. I already can see that I am not going to be able to rely on surface stone for much more than a few buildings in any future settlements; the penalty for uneducated hits very hard here. Since two of the achievements I am going for are Miner and Mason, it makes sense to me to get a quarry and a mine established in the next few years. There are several good locations for these to the north and east of the new crossriver settlement.

I don't think I would call mining and quarrying inefficient, at least not with educated workers, but it certainly is a slow business. Much will depend on the meaning of the uneducated parameters for mining iron and stone:

mining iron:
   int _lowCreateCount = 1;
   int _highCreateCount = 2;

mining stones:
   int _lowCreateCount = 1;
   int _highCreateCount = 2;

If this just means that it is only half as fast, I think it is something I can live with. If it means that it not only is half as fast, but also that a given quarry/mine can produce only half the total output, that will be a serious problem. That's another reason I want to get a mine and/or a quarry set up fairly soon, so I can see which of these is the case.

Another possibility I see is sheep. This may be an error on the part of the developer, but it looks like there is no uneducated penalty for producing wool:

pasture wool:
   int _lowCreateCount = 6;
   int _highCreateCount = 6;

If this is the case, then it would make sense to set up some pastures; wool coats are very good for trade (although of course production of them will be only half as fast as normal, and will consume twice as much wool).

tailor:
   int _lowCreateCount = 1;
   int _highCreateCount = 2;

The other possibility I see for trade is ale. The uneducated penalty here is again not so severe:

tavern:
   int _lowCreateCount = 7;
   int _highCreateCount = 10;

Importing fruit, of course.

Firewood and especially tools are very bad. This is because there is are two compounding penalties, the one for trees=>logs (and surface rocks=>iron), and then the ones for logs=>firewood and for logs/iron=>tools.

You get only 2 logs per tree and 2 iron per rock rather than 3.

You get only 3 firewood per log, so that means one tree can yield only 6 firewood, rather than 12 with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time.

You get only 1 tool per log+stone rather than 2, so that means tree+rock=>2 tools, rather than 6 with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time.

I can see trading some firewood, especially once I am importing logs, but I can't see trading tools as an option at all. In fact I shall most likely be importing tools.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 03, 2015, 06:05:28 AM
All you say makes sense. But my opinion is still, that especially quarries are very inefficient (got it right this time with the in-prefix  ;D). Can you remember my non-trading-settlement? How I struggled with the productivity of the quarries? How the quarryworkers moved around and lived everywhere on the map, except in the houses I built for them? But of cause, that was a dense farming based settlement. Maybe you can avoid this, if you build the way you plan. It will be interesting to follow

I think the idea of a forestbased economy with these uneducated workers is interesting, a good way to build, if you don't plan to build very big: You need a lot more wood than with educated workers, the gatherers are quite productive, the hunters gives you meat to sell, especially in combination with fish for the population. Also the idea with sheep sounds good. Together with wool for clothing, they give meat to sell.

When I read your blog, I almost feel the urge to start a new uneducated, unmodded game myself. But if I do, I will again try a fast and if possible big game. Not from the start. That attempt failed. But I think maybe it is possible to build a trade-farming economy and when the trade is established, increase the growth. I will think a bit about it and maybe give it a chance.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 03, 2015, 05:14:42 PM
Year 22

Just built the quarry. My first stonecutter took two whacks at the rock and was crushed.  ::)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 03, 2015, 05:50:48 PM
Quarry is at 98% and I've taken 30 stone, therefore quarry capacity is halved with uneducated workers; total output will be 1500 stone rather than 3000. Presumably mines will be the same story.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on January 03, 2015, 06:06:19 PM
probably
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 04, 2015, 12:58:50 AM
@RedKetchup  Bonjour, mon ami; Happy New Year!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on January 04, 2015, 03:31:36 AM
Happy new year 2015 Mon Ami :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 04, 2015, 05:45:30 AM
Quarry is at 98% and I've taken 30 stone, therefore quarry capacity is halved with uneducated workers; total output will be 1500 stone rather than 3000. Presumably mines will be the same story.

 :(
Another argument against quarries. These accidental deaths is another one.

I was always a bit surprised at the beginning. There was so much complain about these death marches. And yes, some people were starving all the time in larger settlements. But if you played a bit careful in remote areas, there were not more starvation deaths than accidents in mines and quarries.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 08, 2015, 07:45:57 PM
Early Spring 26

Village One area - original forest node is gone, turning into peach orchards and farms. Really need to start upgrading houses now that I finally have a stock of stone and iron. The hunter there center right in the midst of orchards and farms is still bagging five deer per year, year in and year out, with just the one hunter.

Hunting cabins are awesome resource providers. I have 5 cabins that produce 3000-4000 venison and 75-100 leather every year, with 5 uneducated hunters. There is no other producer that can compare to this; placement is the key, watch the herds, they do the same thing over and over on maybe a one year? two-year? cycle. Takes a lot of development before they change.

Village Two - four forest nodes and, finally, sheep. That took forever. Upper left is future Fourth Settlement.

Village Three - for now just a forest node, the next market and TP will be here.

Death Valley - mines and quarries, inactive for now. Will be re-activated in the future just to get the Mason and Miner achievements.

I was always a bit surprised at the beginning. There was so much complain about these death marches. And yes, some people were starving all the time in larger settlements. But if you played a bit careful in remote areas, there were not more starvation deaths than accidents in mines and quarries.

@Nilla  Reading on the Reddit sub (and the Steam forum, don't even get me started on that), lots of folks just aren't at all careful or systematic about how they build their towns. They send their guys out helter-skelter and build all over the map, then complain that the AI is bugged cause all their guys are starving. ::)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 09, 2015, 07:40:23 AM
Youīre an expert on hunting lodges. I never have 5 deer in a year for one hunter. Not even on what I find "perfect locations" with several flocks of deer in the hunting area. But I have noticed too, that hunters still find animals even if most of the area is used for other things.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: suzuki on January 12, 2015, 10:42:10 PM
Thanks for all your village blogs. 8)

I really like Banished and just recently started playing.

Seems like this website is not-so-active anymore, but your blogs especially, and Nilla's are great read and educational.

You're approach on setup the entire town and just pause all the buildings I found interesting. However this locks resources I think.

I've tried both slow games and fast games now. Up to 400-500 at my top game. (Slow games 1x 2x speed, fast 5x 10x speed)

Slow games are kind of slow, when you've done fast games for a while, but I have now started a slow one and I feel I have better control this way.

Keep it up! :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 16, 2015, 05:44:53 PM
@suzuki Thanks very much for your comment. I've been using the plan-and-pause method for some time, ever since I stole it from @RedKetchup's blog of his pop 5000 town. ;)

It does not lock up resources, unless you should happen to delay pausing the construction. In that case your laborers may already be tasked with bringing in the consruction mats. Once that happens, the only thing that can stop them is to demolish, which is truly a last resort as you lose half of what has already been placed.

I want to point out that I always pause the game when I am placing new structures. That way I can be sure to get the structures paused before anyone is tasked with bringing in construction mats. In this case a structure can sit paused for years and no construction mats will ever be brought until you unpause.

There are two disadvantages to laying down structures and pausing them for long periods:
1) The trees in the footprint will eventually die, and you will get no logs from them.
2) Your foresters will be unable to plant new trees in the footprint.

Just things to consider.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 16, 2015, 06:18:17 PM
Youīre an expert on hunting lodges. I never have 5 deer in a year for one hunter. Not even on what I find "perfect locations" with several flocks of deer in the hunting area. But I have noticed too, that hunters still find animals even if most of the area is used for other things.
Yes, people have the misconception that hunting cabins need to be in the forest. They can be anywhere. They are underutilized I think.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 16, 2015, 08:07:40 PM
Year 32 - pop 281

Concentrating on slow steady expansion, mainly of forest nodes and hunters. Still just three markets, three TPs. Main trade goods are ale, venison/mutton, firewood. Some coats, and iron tools for steel tools (at a loss in TV, but even so it's the best way to get them).

Village One

Village Two

Village Three

Future Village Four

Future Village Five
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 17, 2015, 04:38:41 AM
It looks really good. What is your strategy for the number of new houses?

Seems like you use the TP for stocking. A good thing if you don't want to build so many barns. ;)

It looks like the nomads are going away. Suppose you will not take any.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 17, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
It looks really good. What is your strategy for the number of new houses?

Seems like you use the TP for stocking. A good thing if you don't want to build so many barns. ;)

It looks like the nomads are going away. Suppose you will not take any.
So far I'm just adding houses as I need them for workers in new areas. I have no systematic plan for adding certain numbers of houses per year though. Just going to go slow.

I'm keeping my peaches banked in the TPs, rather than releasing them into circulation all at once.

You are correct, the nomads are leaving. No nomads in this town. Perhaps I shall accept some when I get to the point where I am ready to get the Miners and Masons achievements. Those will be the last two though, I'm thinking.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 17, 2015, 05:12:25 PM
Uneducated!  ;)

Technically, I could start building schools now. But I'm not going to, it's too interesting without them.  :)

Of course at some point I'll have to, in order to get Builder. I just won't hire a teacher.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on January 17, 2015, 09:58:40 PM
hey congrats ! better late than never !
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 18, 2015, 06:59:26 AM
Merci, mon ami!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Mmdrgtobldrgn on January 18, 2015, 07:26:59 AM
Love the 67 labor pool

congrats on the achievement :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 18, 2015, 03:35:09 PM
I like having lots of laborers.  ;)

If this wasn't an uneducated town, there would be like 50-60 students instead.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 20, 2015, 07:23:56 PM
Year 35

Village Four on the left, with planned development. About time for another swath of farms here somewhere. Village Two on the right.

Third planned forest node at Village Three.

This Village Three hunter bagged 6 deer last year, a single hunter. Deer (9 hunting cabins), sheep, and ale are carrying this uneducated town.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 24, 2015, 09:43:04 PM
Year 37 - Everything running pretty smoothly, nice surpluses of food, tools, and clothing.

Village 1 - pretty much mature, except there will be a chapel replacing the field near the cemetery for the builder achievement.

Village 2 - also mature, but farms and pastures eventually will replace the forest node just to the west.

Village 3 -  also needs a farming grid

Village 4 - nearing completion, with forest node under development.

Village 5 - just being developed, market under way with producers and TP to follow. Also forest nodes to be place on the periphery (needs a bridge or two).


Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 26, 2015, 07:57:08 PM
Year 41 - been running on 10x, that's different; feels like driving a bit too fast for the road conditions!

Villages 1-5, future village 6 - the market will go around where the forester is now, with a TP on the river and a fisher or two on the lake.

Wanted to get them with crops in the fields, so much prettier than snow.

Probly just this one more village to build, the rest will be filling in farms and pushing out with forest nodes.

All I need now for Builder is a mine, a hostel, and a school. For Jack of all Trades, I'll need a teacher as well, I'll have to think about how to do that. I suppose that should be the last thing; I'd like to get Tenure with 100% uneducated, just because. ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 28, 2015, 01:20:00 AM

All I need now for Builder is a mine, a hostel, and a school. For Jack of all Trades, I'll need a teacher as well, I'll have to think about how to do that. I suppose that should be the last thing; I'd like to get Tenure with 100% uneducated, just because. ;)

That will be no problem, as far as I can see. The students will not be educated before they leave school and that takes some years. So I don't think that a few of them a few years in school will change the 100% uneducated. You donīt even have to demolish the school, just take the teacher away.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on January 28, 2015, 12:56:01 PM
For Jack of all Trades, I'll need a teacher as well, I'll have to think about how to do that. I suppose that should be the last thing; I'd like to get Tenure with 100% uneducated, just because. ;)

Remember that length of schooling is dependent on time of travel. If you put your school far from housing everyone will take a long, long time to graduate. You may be able to get the achievement and fire the teacher before anyone graduates.

Year 41 - been running on 10x, that's different; feels like driving a bit too fast for the road conditions!

Embrace the adventure!  ;D

Seriously, I play at 10X most of the time (pause to think and plan, 1X during epidemic) because I'm so impatient. I need to learn to relax and smell the pine trees.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 28, 2015, 09:30:23 PM
Year 45

Villages Two and Four; new farms.

Village Five, fully developed and ready for farms.

Villages One and Three.

Experimenting with auto-purchasing, have not used in months, going to give it another shot. If I'm to make it to 200 years without losing it, I will need to do this. Trading is so tedious. First couple of years, okay.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 28, 2015, 09:33:51 PM

All I need now for Builder is a mine, a hostel, and a school. For Jack of all Trades, I'll need a teacher as well, I'll have to think about how to do that. I suppose that should be the last thing; I'd like to get Tenure with 100% uneducated, just because. ;)

That will be no problem, as far as I can see. The students will not be educated before they leave school and that takes some years. So I don't think that a few of them a few years in school will change the 100% uneducated. You donīt even have to demolish the school, just take the teacher away.

@Nilla  You get the Jack of All Trades achievement if you have someone working in every trade for five years. The school/teacher will take some thought.

For Jack of all Trades, I'll need a teacher as well, I'll have to think about how to do that. I suppose that should be the last thing; I'd like to get Tenure with 100% uneducated, just because. ;)

Remember that length of schooling is dependent on time of travel. If you put your school far from housing everyone will take a long, long time to graduate. You may be able to get the achievement and fire the teacher before anyone graduates.


@rkelly17 , Great idea, this is probably the solution.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on January 29, 2015, 06:42:07 AM
Sorry, I forgot the 5 years. That means 20 Banished years and students graduating with 30, so you have to build the school very far away if you try the idea of @rkelly17 . Maybe it is possible, maybe not. Hope you try it and tell how it works.

If this doesn't work, maybe you could try to build the school on one side of a stream (maybe also one teacherhouse with a teacher too old to have children and a barn/market so the teacher doesn't starve/freeze) than demolish the bridge.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on January 29, 2015, 07:37:49 AM
maybe you could try to build the school on one side of a stream (maybe also one teacherhouse with a teacher too old to have children and a barn/market so the teacher doesn't starve/freeze) than demolish the bridge.
@Nilla that's a great idea!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on January 29, 2015, 09:03:18 AM
Sorry, I forgot the 5 years. That means 20 Banished years and students graduating with 30, so you have to build the school very far away if you try the idea of @rkelly17 . Maybe it is possible, maybe not. Hope you try it and tell how it works.

If this doesn't work, maybe you could try to build the school on one side of a stream (maybe also one teacherhouse with a teacher too old to have children and a barn/market so the teacher doesn't starve/freeze) than demolish the bridge.

This is a devilish idea.  ;D  In my very limited (once or twice) experience when you cut the bridge the person on the "wrong" side goes homeless--even when there is a house--but with a house and a stocked barn it might work.

Of course, another option is get Tenure uneducated, then build a school and run it for five years to get Jack of All Trades. I'm assuming, though, that you want something a bit more flamboyant than that.  ;D

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 03, 2015, 07:59:05 PM
Year 50

Village Three - farms replace forest node.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 03, 2015, 08:20:54 PM
Sorry, I forgot the 5 years. That means 20 Banished years and students graduating with 30, so you have to build the school very far away if you try the idea of @rkelly17 . Maybe it is possible, maybe not. Hope you try it and tell how it works.

If this doesn't work, maybe you could try to build the school on one side of a stream (maybe also one teacherhouse with a teacher too old to have children and a barn/market so the teacher doesn't starve/freeze) than demolish the bridge.

This is a devilish idea.  ;D  In my very limited (once or twice) experience when you cut the bridge the person on the "wrong" side goes homeless--even when there is a house--but with a house and a stocked barn it might work.

Of course, another option is get Tenure uneducated, then build a school and run it for five years to get Jack of All Trades. I'm assuming, though, that you want something a bit more flamboyant than that.  ;D

@rkelly17 Flamboyant doesn't really matter--well, maybe just a little bit ;) ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 04, 2015, 03:25:13 AM
The last picture isnīt very flamboyant (had to look for translation of that word).

It looks very much like something built by @irrelevant. ;)
Nice, neat, many barns. :D ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 04, 2015, 09:09:41 AM
The last picture isnīt very flamboyant (had to look for translation of that word).

And now that you have looked it up, I hope you will use it often. I seem to remember that you are Swedish? Is there an equivalent word? I know a fair number of people of Scandinavian heritage here in Canada and in the US (I taught in a Lutheran seminary for 30 years) and only a few try to be flamboyant. My German ancestors would try it occasionally; my Irish ancestors lived it out every day. Personally I aim for "eccentric."  Definition of an eccentric: Crazy person with either (a) a lot of money, or (b) a Ph. D.

It looks very much like something built by @irrelevant. ;)
Nice, neat, many barns. :D ;)

Maybe "flamboyant" isn't quite the right word, though anyone who holds the record for most nomads accepted is certainly in the running to be declared "flamboyant" even if he does have lots of barns.  ;D

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 04, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
You just can't have too many barns, it's impossible. :D

Early Summer 52 - Village Six started

Forest operations near Village Five
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 05, 2015, 04:37:01 AM
This is what I got as I looked for flamboyant (sounds like a French word originally)

"(of a person or their behavior) tending to attract attention because of their exuberance, confidence, and stylishness.
"a flamboyant display of aerobatics"
synonymer: exuberant, confident, lively, animated, vibrant, vivacious
of or denoting a style of French Gothic architecture marked by wavy flamelike tracery and ornate decoration.
"To house his accumulation of art and curiosities he bought the hôtel of the abbots of Cluny that had been built in the flamboyant Gothic style around 1500."
synonymer: elaborate, ornate, fancy, baroque, rococo"

and 8 (!) slightly different Swedish translations. :)

@rkelly17 Yes I am Swedish and my husband is German and I have lived many years in Germany. From my point of view we Swedes are more flmboyant then the Germans. But we are a small country, with only a few people, so maybe abroad we try adapt ourselves to the customs of the country we are visiting.



Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 05, 2015, 05:49:28 AM
and 8 (!) slightly different Swedish translations. :)

8! I love a language with options.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 05, 2015, 07:58:25 PM
Late Summer 55

The village concept is working out very well as a way to deal with the limitations of an uneducated workforce. Each village is basically self-sufficient, with a market, a TP, two choppers, two taverns, a tailor, a smith, a fisher or two, farms, and forest nodes. Auto-purchase is working well, building up surpluses of all categories. An important decision has been slow pop growth, number of families far exceeds the number of houses. Large surplus of laborers, 25%+ of pop.

Villages Two and Four.

Villages One and Six, new farms.

Villages Three and Five.


Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 06, 2015, 02:15:01 AM
I think you have found a great strategy for an uneducated population.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 07, 2015, 09:14:22 PM
Year 61

Village 1 thru 6, Death Valley

Going to let this run overnight on 10x, something I never have done before, just to see what happens.



Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 07, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
Year 66 - Builder

Sitting here watching; fine-tuning the production limits and the auto purchasing is crucial if you are going to let your town run unattended. Selling tools is a bad idea, particularly with uneducated.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 08, 2015, 03:22:29 AM
Death Valley? Is that because of all the accidents at the mines and quarries?

I had a new very realistic work related death in my CC game, this time not accidental but long turn. A charcoal burner died from inhaling too much smoke and dust.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 08, 2015, 08:12:44 AM
@Nilla  Yes, that's right. I didn't just make that up, there is an actual spot in the California desert that is called Death Valley.

That is indeed a fitting death for a charcoal burner.

Year 101

Didn't really get as far as I anticipated overnight. Apparently a disease hit and re-set the speed to 1x.

Just as well, I had the iron, tool, wool, and coat auto-purchase set up poorly, resulting in the barns and stockpiles all filling up. I've been dealing with that all morning. Finally I accepted a batch of nomads just to consume some stuff, and to work in the quarries, aiming for the Mason achievement.

Edit: Gah! In less than a year, those boarding houses are now empty!  >:(

Year 104 - Mason

In 3 years, with 60 uneducated stonecutters, 6 were crushed by rocks. Now we'll see how the miners do  ;D

Year 107 - Miner. Three deaths in the mines. Not what I expected.

Year 111 - Jack of All Trades. At one point I forgot and fired all my builders, and that reset the clock. Got 6-8 educated workers by mistake. Oh well.

All that's left now is Firefighter and Tenure.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 08, 2015, 03:09:45 PM
I am a bis disappointed from the 5% educated, but congratulations anyhow.  ;)

How old where the educated student at that far away school?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 08, 2015, 03:50:36 PM
I am a bis disappointed from the 5% educated, but congratulations anyhow.  ;)

How old where the educated student at that far away school?
@Nilla, Thanks!  ;D  Surprisingly not so old, 18-19. I would've expected 20s. There were some houses not so far away, but no children in them.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on February 08, 2015, 05:13:28 PM
congrats on your achievements :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 09, 2015, 05:29:35 AM
Merci, mon ami! :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 09, 2015, 05:49:25 PM
Had a population struggle unlike anything I've ever experienced before. Accepted two batches of nomads in a row, had plenty of food, clothing, and tools for them, and boarding houses. They soon moved out of the BHs into regular housing.

I never had any intention of building more houses though, and the number of families soon far outnumbered the number of houses.

In just a few years, the population crashed severely (no housing turnover, so no new families, so no new babies), resulting in large housing surplus. I had to go through and find all of the fractured families, fire all my builders and demolish their housing (forcing them into the BHs), and reclaim the houses one by one. At the same time my food production is far in excess of need (with storage full to bursting) so I cut the gatherers in half and shut down about 40% of my farms.

I've almost got this sorted out, after ten years of effort.

No matter what your problem is, nomads are almost never going to be the solution.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 10, 2015, 03:56:17 AM
That's an interesting graph.

I am also sure that the nomads was the cause of the trouble. You had a very nice population graph, with a small but constant variation. You cannot disturb that. Each small interference has a larger impact than you expect. I've noticed that, too, in my attempts of keeping the population constant. And two batches of nomads; that's not even a small interference.

Why did you take the nomads anyway? If you didn't want to make new houses. I am a bit astonished. Haven't seen that kind of experiments in your towns so far. Venturous experiments, that's kind of my speciality. ;) You are more the thoughtful and patient kind of builder, at least so far.  But maybe you are a bit bored, nothing new happens anymore in that old town.  ??? ;)

I am eager to see the next daring changes.   ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 10, 2015, 06:12:23 AM
@Nilla I took them to put workers into first the quarries and then the mines, the only reason. ;D I didn't think my pop could support the diversion of labor into the size workforce (60) required for the achievements. I had the empty boarding houses sitting there for them; I failed to consider that they would move out and take over the general housing as quickly as they did.  :o

Had I stopped with the first batch (72, I think), I would still have been okay. But I took a second batch (~80-90) to fill the boarding houses back up (they are right next to the mines), and to help deal with my oversupply problem by bringing in additional consumers. That was my first main error. I should have just shut down half of my farms, which I finally ended up doing a couple of years ago.

Even then there would have been no problem had I compensated by building additional houses. That was my second main error.

But, things are just about back to normal now.  I may be able to auto-run overnight again tonight.

My aim from here on out to Year 200 is to make this town be as boring as possible  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 10, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
No matter what your problem is, nomads are almost never going to be the solution.

Says the man who holds the record!

 ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 11, 2015, 07:32:24 PM
Year 129

So much for boring! ;D

One thing I have learned from this town is that uneducated towns are far more volatile from a population standpoint than educated towns are (look at how much houses vs families had changed in just 9 years; this is why @Nilla got pop 5000 in just 30 years in Doolin). This is obvious if you think about it, families form and children come when the parents are 10 years old. I tried to recover too fast from my population mismanagement, I reclaimed the demolished houses too quickly, and I am going to pay for that with another, bigger, pop surge and crash, and I'll have to do the whole thing over again.

But it is interesting, and therefore, fun. ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 12, 2015, 02:11:32 AM
That's a comfort! To make a town as boring as possible seems to be............ boring ;)

Perhaps you have already thought about it, but I will remind you about your boardinghouse. If the number of children goes down too much, use them to create new families.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 12, 2015, 05:59:37 PM
Yeah, I tore them down, needed the space. Plus I'm not sure that any level of micromanagement could prevent this coming mess.  ;D

Edit: I built one back, you're right, it will make a difference, but it will take lots of work.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 13, 2015, 08:40:14 PM
Year 136

So inspired by @Nilla's suggestion to use my BH I have undertaken some serious population management. Investing a lot of time in going through the housing one by one and demolishing 2-3 houses at a time, moving the families into the BH (where the children from the demolished houses hook up into new units), then reclaiming the demolished houses. The newly formed families move into the reclaimed houses, and the empty-nest oldsters take the next available housing. When the BH has sufficient space I rinse and repeat.

I am concentrating on getting the 30-something females hooked up. I don't want to create yet another pop surge, so I'm picking the spinsters, thinking they will produce one or at most two children. So I go through the houses looking for 30 y/o female basement-dwellers, then search out likely males to pair up with them.

It really slows me down, but it is interesting work. There are some fun stories here, but it probably is best just to consider them briefly, without too much detail, and then move on ;). Lots better than 20 years ago, when my indiscriminate matchmaking was causing all the 10-y/os to pair up. :o

Emergency Village 7, built to replace the former BHs, and to consume food and resources.

Emergency Villages 8 & 9, built to provide housing and emergency food production. If it isn't obvious, these days I always leave the job of harvesting surface stone and iron to the foresters.

Frontier forest nodes; if necessary, Market 10 will replace the barn under construction at center.

Last year 14 uneducated hunters at 14 cabins produced 6400 venison and 160 leather, essentially all of which went into TPs where it was traded for 20,800 peaches and pecans, for an ultimate yield of 1485 food per hunter. Not bad for uneducated.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 16, 2015, 02:37:09 PM
Year 152

Village Ten underway. Need more houses and therefore more farms.

Village Ten, Village Nine. Once the sine wave gets started, it is really difficult to get it stopped. With uneducated, it is doubly hard, with the kids hooking up and having kids at age 10. They get a full house by 25, and then live another 50 years.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 17, 2015, 03:39:12 AM
The sinus-graph is impressing. It looks like you built slightly more houses continuously. Each "max" is a bit higher than the last. It also looks like you have stopped to work with the population to minimize the variations. It's maybe not possible to stop it with the uneducated, but to minimize it. I have some suggestions how to do it, if you wasn't to try during your next 40 years.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 17, 2015, 03:55:28 PM
@Nilla Part of my problem is that during the pop crashes I end up with the inevitable large number of houses with one adult (and sometimes a child or two) in them. During each crash I have micromanaged this by firing all builders and "demolishing" all of these houses, then gradually recovering them as couples become available.

The result of this each time has been a huge surge in new children, and a ballooning population that totally outstrips my ability to build new houses in the following years. This leads to the next crash.

Of course I would be interested in hearing about any ideas you had for controlling this. The next crash is just around the corner  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 18, 2015, 03:54:01 AM
I would try this:

Look at the number of children. Choose an "ideal number". (about 12% of the constant =average? population, we have discussed this before.) To make it easy, say your choice is 100 children.

As soon as the number of children gets higher than 110, send a bunch of old childless people to the boarding house and close their homes, and don't open them, until the number of children is down to 100 again. As long as there are old people in the boardinghouse, there will be no new couple and I hope less children.

As soon as the number of children goes under 90 (and there are no closed houses to open), send a bunch of families with adult children to the boardinghouse (I wouldn't mind too much about the individual age of the mothers, look at is as an average thing). And new couples will be found, in the boardinghouse or in the homes, it doesn't matter.

I think to succeed to work with the population is to act early, as so many other things in Banished. Not wait until the population grows/reduces but be ahead of the development = looking at the next generation and act there.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 18, 2015, 08:03:07 AM
@Nilla Part of my problem is that during the pop crashes I end up with the inevitable large number of houses with one adult (and sometimes a child or two) in them. During each crash I have micromanaged this by firing all builders and "demolishing" all of these houses, then gradually recovering them as couples become available.

The result of this each time has been a huge surge in new children, and a ballooning population that totally outstrips my ability to build new houses in the following years. This leads to the next crash.

Of course I would be interested in hearing about any ideas you had for controlling this. The next crash is just around the corner  ;D

Far be it from me to claim to be an expert on Banished matchmaking, so any advice I give is worth what you pay for it.  ;)  What I would try is not to worry about getting everybody a house when you have a surplus of "families" without housing. In such a case build 2-4 houses per year and see if that smooths things out a bit. That should let some of your couples get together and start having babies, but hold some off until later when they can get a house and do the same, but not in such pronounced waves. The question would be how well that works with uneducated workers.

I think that even with a very balanced new houses/new couples approach, cycles are unavoidable after a certain population level. It may be built in from the early wave of deaths when the first generation dies at close to the same time.  :-\
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 18, 2015, 06:28:57 PM
I would try this:

Look at the number of children. Choose an "ideal number". (about 12% of the constant =average? population, we have discussed this before.) To make it easy, say your choice is 100 children.

As soon as the number of children gets higher than 110, send a bunch of old childless people to the boarding house and close their homes, and don't open them, until the number of children is down to 100 again. As long as there are old people in the boardinghouse, there will be no new couple and I hope less children.

As soon as the number of children goes under 90 (and there are no closed houses to open), send a bunch of families with adult children to the boardinghouse (I wouldn't mind too much about the individual age of the mothers, look at is as an average thing). And new couples will be found, in the boardinghouse or in the homes, it doesn't matter.

I think to succeed to work with the population is to act early, as so many other things in Banished. Not wait until the population grows/reduces but be ahead of the development = looking at the next generation and act there.
@Nilla, I agree with this general approach as a way to prevent this from happening, but I'm not sure I can make it work here. My reasons for thinking this are 1) uneducated changes the calculations because they start reproducing at 10 rather than at 16-20, and 2) I am so far gone into the sine wave, I don't think I can pull this out using feedback. It's like using the thermostat to try to adjust the heat in your house on a -10C day with the windows open.  ;) I need to get out ahead of the curve somehow. As you say, "to succeed with the population is to act early." which I failed to do.

Far be it from me to claim to be an expert on Banished matchmaking, so any advice I give is worth what you pay for it.  ;)  What I would try is not to worry about getting everybody a house when you have a surplus of "families" without housing. In such a case build 2-4 houses per year and see if that smooths things out a bit. That should let some of your couples get together and start having babies, but hold some off until later when they can get a house and do the same, but not in such pronounced waves. The question would be how well that works with uneducated workers.

I think that even with a very balanced new houses/new couples approach, cycles are unavoidable after a certain population level. It may be built in from the early wave of deaths when the first generation dies at close to the same time.  :-\
I think you are selling yourself short; you have been here longer than most of us, and I reckon you have figured out a thing or two ;) I've pretty much decided that since what I was doing before was not working (indeed was making things worse), this time I am going to continue building houses and forget about the pop crash. I don't think 2-4 houses/year is going to make much difference though, maybe something more like 15-20. In any case, I'll see what happens when you let them spread out among the empty houses as they like. It may make the crash worse, but the rebound may also be less steep. And anyway, I only have to keep this going another 44 years  ;D ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 18, 2015, 06:54:54 PM
Year 156

Village Ten, Village Nine - expanding farms and housing
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 19, 2015, 03:29:41 AM
I agree with this general approach as a way to prevent this from happening, but I'm not sure I can make it work here. My reasons for thinking this are 1) uneducated changes the calculations because they start reproducing at 10 rather than at 16-20, and 2) I am so far gone into the sine wave, I don't think I can pull this out using feedback. It's like using the thermostat to try to adjust the heat in your house on a -10C day with the windows open.  ;) I need to get out ahead of the curve somehow. As you say, "to succeed with the population is to act early." which I failed to do.

I think you are wrong. I think it is possible to change this, not easy, but possible.

Some day I might prove you're wrong!  ;) I haven't that 200 year achievement. I never felt any kind of challenge in trying for that one. This might be a chance. I'll let you know, be sure of that.  ;D

But of cause I think it is wise to build houses and expand all the time, slow or fast, doesn't matter. The main thing; expansion. That's how the game was designed.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 19, 2015, 09:05:46 AM
I think you are selling yourself short; you have been here longer than most of us, and I reckon you have figured out a thing or two ;) I've pretty much decided that since what I was doing before was not working (indeed was making things worse), this time I am going to continue building houses and forget about the pop crash. I don't think 2-4 houses/year is going to make much difference though, maybe something more like 15-20. In any case, I'll see what happens when you let them spread out among the empty houses as they like. It may make the crash worse, but the rebound may also be less steep. And anyway, I only have to keep this going another 44 years  ;D ;)

Thank you for the complement!  :)  You are no doubt right about the numbers. I forgot how big Gopher Prairie had become. 2-4 would be a tiny drop in the bucket. Sometime we should do some sort of experiment on the optimum percentage for number of houses vs. number of "families."
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 19, 2015, 05:23:34 PM
But of cause I think it is wise to build houses and expand all the time, slow or fast, doesn't matter. The main thing; expansion. That's how the game was designed.
Yes, this is a mistake I made in this town. I built the way I always do, maybe even a bit slower. But that doesn't work for uneducated, who reproduce faster than educated. And then I took the nomads  ::)

Sometime we should do some sort of experiment on the optimum percentage for number of houses vs. number of "families."

Yes, there is a great need for this.

Year 156

Villages Four, Two, and Seven.

Villages Five, Eight, and Ten.

Villages Nine and Six.

Villages One, Three, and Eight.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 21, 2015, 07:46:05 PM
Year 163

Heading down the sine wave again. No special measures taken this time, other than to follow @Nilla's advice to try to keep the number of children around 100. Even that hasn't worked out, as large numbers of houses are being vacated, and new couples are moving in. Three diseases in three years didn't help matters; 30-40 died in a tuberculosis outbreak. Fortunately I was able to contain a smallpox outbreak to patient 0. After the TB, built three more hospitals.

Villages One thru Ten
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 22, 2015, 01:51:23 AM
I kind of like that sine wave. But I've been thinking a little bit more about this "divorce phenomenon" in Banished. I don't think it is a bug. It must be made deliberately, for some purpose. What is, if the purpose is to make these population variations smaller? Because I think it might work that way. Think about the consequences , not short term, but, for a whole population circle. (Sorry, it's hard to explain my thoughts in English).

You have more homes than families -> couple split ->the population will not grow so fast as if all homes were available. After a short time there will be much more families then homes ->adult children cannot move out. They must wait until people die. If some couples are split up at the generation before, more houses will be available in phase of the game as free homes are desperately needed. -> More couples could have children-> the minimum will not be so low as at the circle before.

I think, if you don't force the couples together, the max and min of the sine graph could be a bit more flat.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 22, 2015, 06:37:24 AM
@Nilla, that is an interesting idea, and we may soon see if this does have a dampening effect. Year 165, and my number of families has again fallen to near the number of houses. ;D

Actually, now that I'm looking at it, I'm not so sure; this cycle looks different from the previous cycles. The number of children has increased ahead of where it had previously with respect to the bottom of the curve. And you can see the curve is flattening out at a much higher level than in previous cycles.

Year 163 on the left, year 165 on the right. You can see the number of families has fallen by 100, but the pop has fallen only by 22. The difference is in the number of children (uh-oh). I fear another pop surge to new highs (although wouldn't it be nice if the curve was just flatter, as you suggest?) :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 22, 2015, 09:20:00 AM
I am making an experiment (my CC-mod trading game is too booring). I let it run at 10x and look from time to time what happends. (Maybe I should make an extra blog about it.) I have some ideas what I want to test.

I have built 50 houses and now I'm just looking. The population has reached a maximum (about 200) and a minimum (about 90) and is now growing again. I have forced all separated couples together). Next time I will not. Than I will build a couple of schools and see if something changes.

The picture shows how it looks right now.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on February 22, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
I kind of like that sine wave. But I've been thinking a little bit more about this "divorce phenomenon" in Banished. I don't think it is a bug. It must be made deliberately, for some purpose. What is, if the purpose is to make these population variations smaller? Because I think it might work that way. Think about the consequences , not short term, but, for a whole population circle. (Sorry, it's hard to explain my thoughts in English).

You have more homes than families -> couple split ->the population will not grow so fast as if all homes were available. After a short time there will be much more families then homes ->adult children cannot move out. They must wait until people die. If some couples are split up at the generation before, more houses will be available in phase of the game as free homes are desperately needed. -> More couples could have children-> the minimum will not be so low as at the circle before.

I think, if you don't force the couples together, the max and min of the sine graph could be a bit more flat.

I think, though, that I have seen it reported that couples splitting into two houses does NOT interfere with reproduction. I'm not sure about that myself because I always try to prevent it from happening. I wish I could remember where I saw the post--it is one of those vague recollections one has as one gets older.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 22, 2015, 10:46:17 AM
Yes they still reproduce, when they are separated. They might even get more children, than if they lived together. If they split and two children live with the father, the mother could theoretically have four children still living at home (5 person in one house). But I didn't mean that, just that more houses would be available for the next generation, at a time as they are very much needed.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 23, 2015, 05:47:39 PM
Jeez! I was wondering when I could stop building freaking wells. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 24, 2015, 06:07:12 AM
Year 170

Food reserve. Housing reserve.

Actually there are maybe 15 paused stone houses, with most of the const mats delivered. I just need to decide what #/children to aim at before I unpause them. I'm thinking 280-300.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 24, 2015, 05:37:56 PM
I just really love farms. I wish I could get that CC farm texture/color without going for the whole mod.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 24, 2015, 06:34:42 PM
Pretty good forest node production for 8 uneducated workers.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 24, 2015, 07:17:46 PM
Year 173

Emergency Village Eleven. When you gotta build housing fast, you gotta build wooden houses.

Aiming at expanding out into the western and southern hinterland.

I'm sure I could just let it run and get to year 200 overnight, but I'm thinking longer-term here. I want to see how far I can push this uneducated town, both for pop and for longevity.

What is the longest-lived town anyone has ever seen?  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 25, 2015, 02:36:01 AM

I'm sure I could just let it run and get to year 200 overnight, but I'm thinking longer-term here. I want to see how far I can push this uneducated town, both for pop and for longevity.

What is the longest-lived town anyone has ever seen?  ;)

Like to see that. :)

I haven't seen so many old towns, >200 years, but my fast Doolin, 29 years old or something, had 4900 uneducated inhabitants, so there you will have some work ;). But of cause I played that one with mods and that's a lot easier.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 26, 2015, 08:03:52 PM
Year 176

@Nilla 4900 uneducated! I don't think I'll be interested in touching that  :o But I can see pushing this town to 250 years.

If I can survive my current food shortage that is ;) I expanded into two new villages; I didn't really consider the way that uneducated breed like rabbits when you give them housing. So compounded with two bad harvests in the past five years, I now I have a food crisis.

Normally I like to grow all crops because I like the way it looks, but for now I have switched all my vegetable fields to beans and all of my grain fields to wheat, because I really need this next harvest to max out. :-X
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on February 27, 2015, 02:05:07 AM
Not a boring game. I am glad you left that goal.  ;)

Good luck with the harvest. I am surprised that you, of all people, have a food shortage! But this shows again; if you expand, you have to be ahead with the food production. It's surprising how fast it goes from (over)safe 200 food for each person to a crisis.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 27, 2015, 08:46:08 PM
Year 179

The wheat and beans trick seems to have helped some. I also put two farmers in each of my 15x4 orchards, those harvests improved as well.

Pop is shrinking, very slowly.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on February 27, 2015, 10:40:35 PM
so you kinda still only using corn and wheat ?

you dont use the little tweak mod i made for you ?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 28, 2015, 05:17:03 AM
@RedKetchup yes, I always use it, except I'm going for achievements with this town. ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on February 28, 2015, 07:08:54 AM
oh ok, je comprend :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on February 28, 2015, 08:25:43 PM
Year 180

Food still trending up.

Pop heading down, yay! :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on March 05, 2015, 11:01:53 AM
Year 190

Almost there!

Year 196

New stuff on the south frontier.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on March 05, 2015, 08:13:56 PM
Year 200

Tenure, the last achievement. 0% educated.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on March 06, 2015, 02:16:07 AM
Congratulations! That's really tenure! Will you go on with that town?

I have some questions to the happiness-graph. I suppose they are more unhappy, when there are much more families than homes. Have you noticed any big difference at the behavior or productivity? Do you know any other measures than grave yards and other "happines"-buildings or letting the young people move out, to minimize the unhappiness?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on March 06, 2015, 05:49:49 AM
Congratulations! That's really tenure! Will you go on with that town?

I have some questions to the happiness-graph. I suppose they are more unhappy, when there are much more families than homes. Have you noticed any big difference at the behavior or productivity? Do you know any other measures than grave yards and other "happines"-buildings or letting the young people move out, to minimize the unhappiness?
@Nilla, Thanks! :) Maybe, I'm not sure. The population fluctuations are causing real problems in food supply and storage. I may try the flowerchild challenge. Beyond that, no plan really.

I think the dips in happiness occur during the die-offs, caused by insufficient cemetery space.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on March 06, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
Year 200

Tenure, the last achievement. 0% educated.

Congratulations, @irrelevant. It has always seemed to me that Tenure is the ultimate achievement.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on March 06, 2015, 05:48:33 PM
@rkelly17 Thanks! It certainly does take the longest to get! I really enjoyed this town. Uneducated was a real challenge.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 17, 2015, 07:47:24 PM
Early Winter 265 - pop 0  :o

So I had some time Sunday evening, but not time enough really to do justice to Needmore, so I dusted off Gopher Prairie, my uneducated tenure achievement town, tweaked the auto-purchases, and let it run for 11 hours while I was at work today.

It was a bit eerie to come home to a dead town! Not just dead, but dead for 50 years.

Interestingly, the first thing to go was coats. This seems to have begun a cascade of failure, as the foresters fell behind, then the woodchoppers. Once the firewood was gone, the food dwindled rapidly as no one was working any longer.

I've gone back to year 200, added some choppers and some taverns. Reduced the amount of firewood and coats in the TPs. Quit buying tools and increased buying logs and wool. We'll see. That uneducated sine wave doesn't help any, as GP nearly runs out of laborers near the bottom. 

Going to let it run overnight, see if I get any further (farther?) ;D

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 18, 2015, 03:53:05 AM
Spring 229 - pop 1405

But poised to die. Ran out of tools this time, caused by cutting back too far on autobuying iron. Although my Bald Hills blog showed that an uneducated town can live with no tools at all, such a town must be optimized to do so by having lots of firewood production, and can't rely on trading.

The end most likely would come this winter, running out of food and firewood both. If not this winter, then almost certainly the next. But anyway this time GP lasted 15+ years longer.

Back to year 209. Tweaking autopurchase program to buy more iron. Running again today.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on August 18, 2015, 06:38:27 AM
Early Winter 265 - pop 0  :o

So I had some time Sunday evening, but not time enough really to do justice to Needmore, so I dusted off Gopher Prairie, my uneducated tenure achievement town, tweaked the auto-purchases, and let it run for 11 hours while I was at work today.

It was a bit eerie to come home to a dead town! Not just dead, but dead for 50 years.

You've got more guts than I do. I've never let a town run by itself, constantly micro-managing. I do like the look of the dead town, though--all those question marks. "What the hell?"  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 18, 2015, 06:46:22 AM
Just playing around.  :) But if I can get it to live unattended all day or overnight, I'll try to see how far it can go.

Yes, the sea of question marks was spooky when I first looked at it after 11 hours. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 18, 2015, 05:42:24 PM
When I got home this evening I found the game had crashed out right after I started it up this morning, and I didn't notice. So no interesting report tonight. Instead, here's another view of the questioning dead for @rkelly17  ;D

Of course, it won't let me upload an attachment. >:(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 19, 2015, 06:47:58 AM
Late Spring 240 - pop 1815

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. But a new problem has made itself apparent, a product of the uneducated sine wave.

You can see GP currently has 638 laborers. But look down through the other professions. Most of them are under-staffed. This is because at the bottom of the sine wave, there are no laborers at all, and so no one to take the place of a professional who dies. This causes resource production problems; right now GP is nearly out of firewood, despite having the most logs it has ever had in stock.

The total amount of understaffing is 128. Assuming the next bottom will be similar to the last one, I need to cut back the professional force by this amount to insure that this doesn't keep happening. Obvious places to cut are farms/orchards, fishers, foresters, TPs, and markets, yet I don't want to cut too deep in any single profession as that brings problems of its own.

This will take some thought. Ideas, comments, and suggestions are welcome.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 19, 2015, 08:08:48 AM
woah sounds like the old bug. i thought it was fixed !!!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 19, 2015, 08:15:31 AM
@RedKetchup  I don't think it's a bug, it's just what happens in an uneducated town. The uneducated pop curve is a big sine wave; in my case pop is ~2000 adults at the top and ~850 adults at the bottom. I currently have 965 jobs created. Once all the laborers are gone, none are available to take the place of a worker when they die. This shows up here because I am letting the town run for several hours unattended. If I was sitting in front of the game, I would be assigning laborers to other jobs as they became available. But with the game unattended, it can run for many years with the jobs unfilled.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on August 19, 2015, 09:13:53 AM
This will take some thought. Ideas, comments, and suggestions are welcome.

Lately I've been doing fine with TPs at 3 each and markets at 2-4 depending on how far they are from a source of supply. I suspect that this is because they aren't working all the time, but only when they need to restock. I also only use 1 herbalist per worksite and have a fairly low herb limit. Not sure what to do with other professions. You seem to use fewer hunters than I do already. I suppose that if one has other sources for fruits and vegetables you can understaff gatherers without much problem. My fishers usually way over produce as well. I don't do mines and quarries, preferring to trade booze for stone and iron (I use the specialized TP mod, so only a few TPs needed). If you come up with good ideas for surviving the sine wave (even in educated communities it happens when the map gets filled up and you can't expand any more--just not quite as violent), please publish.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 19, 2015, 07:20:16 PM
I hit on a big labor-saver; cutting all my bean fields down to 1 farmer. I'll still get decent production no matter what (unless the "farmer-lives-clear-across-the-map" syndrome kicks in >:( ). Beyond that I've knocked the orchards down from 3 to 2, and cut the TPs from 20 to 16 each.

I hate to skimp on vendors, I don't like for the stock to go under 50%, which it does at some of the markets if they have fewer than 12-15 vendors.

Putting 5000 beans in each TP; I have 250K of the things, may as well put them to work. ;D

The pop curve seems to be flattening at a lower zenith than the past couple of times. Of course I can't post a screenshot.  >:(

Going to let it run overnight again, starting from Autumn 241.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 20, 2015, 07:47:13 AM
Crashed out again overnight, not long after I left it (I know because there was no new autosave). I don't understand what is happening here, it never crashes out while I am sitting there watching it.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on August 21, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
This is a very interesting experiment. I am very surprised that everyone died. I can't really understand why that happened. I have had several rally bad starvation. But I never killed everyone.

The problem with the workforce is interesting. Can you feed and support an uneducated population with so few workers that the laborers never fall below 0? Interesting. I'm looking forward to see more.

Sorry about the crash. Could it have to do with some energy saving mode of the computer? That it will be shut down by it self when you don't use it. I noticed when I ran Banished unattended, that the computer "thought" that it wasn't used and went into energy-saving-mode. The game didnīt crash, but it was paused. I had to turn it off.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 22, 2015, 11:06:58 AM
This is a very interesting experiment. I am very surprised that everyone died. I can't really understand why that happened. I have had several rally bad starvation. But I never killed everyone.

The problem with the workforce is interesting. Can you feed and support an uneducated population with so few workers that the laborers never fall below 0? Interesting. I'm looking forward to see more.

Sorry about the crash. Could it have to do with some energy saving mode of the computer? That it will be shut down by it self when you don't use it. I noticed when I ran Banished unattended, that the computer "thought" that it wasn't used and went into energy-saving-mode. The game didnīt crash, but it was paused. I had to turn it off.
@Nilla

I think what happened is they all froze, not starved. There was a bit of food left, but zero firewood.

Pretty sure this town can be self-sustaining. I'm at the office right now, but when I left home a couple of hours ago, it was on year 270. It had run for 6 hours with very little input from me. Hopefully it will still be running when I get back home. I'll put up some more images then.

I have all of the energy-saving features turned off. The screen never goes dark.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 22, 2015, 01:53:58 PM
Year 284 - pop 1900

At the last bottom of the sine wave, lost 19 professionals; that's manageable.

Got too much iron, need to tweak the purchase program. Other than that, everything is humming along just fine  :D

Setting good production limits is nearly as important as setting good auto-trades.

Screen 1 - graphs and occupations

Screen 2 - inventories and autotrades
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 22, 2015, 08:20:59 PM
Year 300 - pop 1171

The graphs look pretty much the same as they did in 284, so I won't post them this time.

The only thing that I haven't really got sorted out yet is iron; I should probably just quit putting tools in the TPs. There's only 100 in each, but if I have to buy iron, why am I selling tools?   

Of course unable to upload images.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 23, 2015, 03:31:08 AM
There's only 100 in each, but if I have to buy iron, why am I selling tools?   

bah for making profit :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 23, 2015, 05:31:14 AM
@RedKetchup, the town is 100% uneducated; since I'm buying iron, I'm just breaking even on tools. ;D

I stopped selling them, and the iron curve flattened out, more or less.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 23, 2015, 07:22:15 AM
ah ok , i c
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 23, 2015, 10:44:18 AM
Year 331 - still running since last night
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 23, 2015, 06:55:24 PM
Year 350

Spent much of the afternoon and evening monitoring and tweaking trading (I have no life ;D ) . No matter how well you have your autotrades set up, you can still get stung by, say, a string of resource merchants. At one point GP ran out of fruit for ale, which caused ale production to cease, which impacted purchases of everything else. I had to intervene and direct trading for a couple of years. The 9999 trade limit is a real weak spot for autotrading/autorunning like this. A boat can bring 32000 peaches, but if you aren't sitting there running things, the boat is going to leave with 22001 of them still on board. Probably 8 TPs is really too few for doing this, but I don't have enough producers to stock more TPs.

If I haven't mentioned it before, I'm using the mod that eliminates seed and livestock traders.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 23, 2015, 11:43:36 PM
unfortunatly, we cannot get rid of this '9999' limit :(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 24, 2015, 05:53:47 AM
@RedKetchup yeah, I didn't really think it was possible, or someone probly would have done it by now  ;)

Here's the image from year 350. Look at those lush managed forests; the reason they look like that is I hit the log limit. Going to need to bump it up or the gatherers' and herbalists' production will be impaired.

I also don't like the way the pop curve looks; the most recent bottom is way higher than the previous ones. If it goes corresponding higher at the top, food could get tight today  :P
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 24, 2015, 06:03:04 AM
healthy forests :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 24, 2015, 09:07:40 AM
Yes, they are very pretty  :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 24, 2015, 05:14:45 PM
Year 378

After running unattended for ten hours today. Big pop die-off back about 15 years ago again resulted in ~100 unfilled jobs. I was fortunate to come through that as well as I did.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 25, 2015, 05:14:13 AM
Year 400 - another milestone. I guess I'm going for 500.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on August 25, 2015, 07:40:48 AM
Year 400 - another milestone. I guess I'm going for 500.

You are crazy!  ;) ;D

One question: Did your population recover from that "almost (?) starvation by themselves or did it happen in the time you were there?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 25, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
@Nilla, it happened while I was away.

One thing I really have begun to appreciate is that in addition to the food shown on the food graph, there normally is an average of 200-250 food in each house; in this case that means another ~120,000 food. So the food inventory hitting zero doesn't mean that folks automatically start to starve. You can see that the food bounced up and down at an extremely low level, but the fact that some food was available meant that the home stocks were enough to carry things along. Most importantly, the workers didn't panic and leave their jobs! For this reason, I now have new respect for fishers and gatherers and the steady food income they provide.

Actually, looking at the graphs again, there may have been some starvation. That would possibly account for the steeper and deeper than normal pop dip there. But if it happened, it was not widespread and lasted only for a short time.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 25, 2015, 08:04:32 AM

You are crazy!  ;) ;D


 ;D You may be right.  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: RedKetchup on August 25, 2015, 03:47:17 PM

You are crazy!  ;) ;D


 ;D You may be right.  ;)

he is !!! lol

but after 500 years.... they should be mining asteroids and they should be in space lol colonizing outer planets lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: xyris on August 25, 2015, 03:56:58 PM
Not crazy!  I'm interested.  I plan to go to 500 years on my current map just to see what happens.   :P
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 25, 2015, 04:59:53 PM

You are crazy!  ;) ;D


 ;D You may be right.  ;)

he is !!! lol

but after 500 years.... they should be mining asteroids and they should be in space lol colonizing outer planets lol

I'm sorry, it is not possible to create such a mod  ;) ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 25, 2015, 05:02:45 PM
Not crazy!  I'm interested.  I plan to go to 500 years on my current map just to see what happens.   :P
@xyris Good luck! I'd be interested to see your progress. My top tip would be, don't try to do it without schools! ;)

If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask. I love answering questions. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: Nilla on August 26, 2015, 03:28:58 AM
Not crazy!  I'm interested.  I plan to go to 500 years on my current map just to see what happens.   :P

As you might understand, I don't really mean @irrelevant is crazy or at least not (much  :-\) crazier than the rest of us Banished-geeks. And yes this experiment is VERY interesting. To me that food graph in pic 378 exactly shows the thing that fascinates me most by this game: It went well several cycles. There was a food surplus between 300 and 800k. Than, for some reason I don't quite understand (do you know why @irrelevant?) the lowest population wasn't as low as at the cycles before, so there wasn't quite as much food stored as at the years before. The population high was also a little bit higher than before and that huge food storage was within a few years gone.

And @xyris: I like very much to see your progress on that old town, too.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: irrelevant on August 26, 2015, 06:08:59 AM
Year 433

@Nilla I'm fairly certain that the answer to your question lies in the demographic mix, specifically what are the ages of the female bannies who are forming new households as the curve moves down and houses become available. If lots of them are younger (young enough to have 2-3 children), the curve will flatten out sooner. If lots of them are older (will have only 1 child or possibly none), the trough will be deeper. And probably the most important factor that would have an effect on their ages would be the number of elderly singles who hang onto their homes for a long time. Are there large numbers of elderly widows living alone, or are there enough elderly widowers for them to move in with, leaving a vacant house sooner rather than later.

You can see on the image 1 pop curve, the shallow troughs were followed by higher than normal spikes in the number of children, which lead directly to the higher peaks on the pop sine wave. These seem inevitably to be followed by deeper troughs, as more houses stay occupied longer, delaying the formation of new households with females of childbearing age, who then will have fewer children.

Of course we have no visibility into any of this, but it feels completely random to me. It would be nice if we could access the bannie database and extract data on the population, but this is not possible unfortunately. To me, this would be the largest single improvement that could be made to the game at this point; not going to hold my breath waiting for it though.

Today begins a huge experiment; I left the game running on 5X when I left home this morning at 8am. I won't return to it until 6pm tomorrow. If it doesn't crash out, it will run for 34 hours. That would be the supreme test of Gopher Prairie's balance, and if it goes well, will surely run past year 500. Personally, I give it about a 25% chance of success, but if it does work that would be a very high note to go out on.

Or would it just encourage me to go for 1000?  ;) ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: rkelly17 on August 26, 2015, 07:38:47 AM
@Nilla I'm fairly certain that the answer to your question lies in the demographic mix, specifically what are the ages of the female bannies who are forming new households as the curve moves down and houses become available. If lots of them are younger (young enough to have 2-3 children), the curve will flatten out sooner. If lots of them are older (will have only 1 child or possibly none), the trough will be deeper. And probably the most important factor that would have an effect on their ages would be the number of elderly singles who hang onto their homes for a long time. Are there large numbers of elderly widows living alone, or are there enough elderly widowers for them to move in with, leaving a vacant house sooner rather than later.

You can see on the image 1 pop curve, the shallow troughs were followed by higher than normal spikes in the number of children, which lead directly to the higher peaks on the pop sine wave. These seem inevitably to be followed by deeper troughs, as more houses stay occupied longer, delaying the formation of new households with females of childbearing age, who then will have fewer children.

Of course we have no visibility into any of this, but it feels completely random to me. It would be nice if we could access the bannie database and extract data on the population, but this is not possible unfortunately. To me, this would be the largest single improvement that could be made to the game at this point; not going to hold my breath waiting for it though.

The other factor is likely demographic: ratio of males to females in a particular age group. This is quite noticeable in the early game when there are so few citizens, but I'm beginning to think it may happen at random points throughout the game. I usually watch to see who moves into a new house as it's built and every so often I've been noticing that most of the men or most of the women moving in are 10 years older then their new partner. I don't think that the game picks the oldest unmarried citizen for the next new house (I've seen it do just the opposite too many times), but I'm assuming that a pool of older citizens who haven't yet found a suitable partner stands behind this observed phenomenon. In the town I'm working on just now (my first Colonial Charter settlement) I had to build a large number of farms and food production facilities quickly (got too involved setting up non-food production chains and lost track  ::) ) and put in many houses for workers. I noticed that 85-90% of the women were 30+ while the men were mostly 20-25. As you said, we can't see inside the demographics, but this sure looks like the result of an oversupply of females. Maybe they will produce fewer children, thus saving the town from the massive population explosion which often follows a mistake like this. I really should pay more attention.  :(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 26, 2015, 08:20:13 AM
@rkelly17 I think you are absolutely right about the ratio. This is also a factor. I have noticed such age disparity between the members of new households. On the other hand, GP is large enough I would think that these instances surely have to average out. And there seems to be no pattern to it. You can get a 15 y/o "man" moving in with a 35 y/o woman in one house, and in the next house you get a pair of 20 y/os. I think the luck of this draw can have a lot to do with these pop curve fluctuations. If you roll a string of older women hooking up, that has an impact.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: rkelly17 on August 26, 2015, 11:37:33 AM
@rkelly17 I think you are absolutely right about the ratio. This is also a factor. I have noticed such age disparity between the members of new households. On the other hand, GP is large enough I would think that these instances surely have to average out. And there seems to be no pattern to it. You can get a 15 y/o "man" moving in with a 35 y/o woman in one house, and in the next house you get a pair of 20 y/os. I think the luck of this draw can have a lot to do with these pop curve fluctuations. If you roll a string of older women hooking up, that has an impact.

Like all things where the law of averages plays a roll, my guess is that it evens out over large numbers but fluctuates with smaller samples. After 500 years you will no doubt have seen half women and half men, but this year . . . .

And I agree that there is no pattern to coupling--except maybe that no one will partner with a student if an adult is available. And I wouldn't want to bet my life on that!  :-\ So one 18 year old citizen may choose a 30 year old partner even though many 18-23 year-olds are available--or not.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: Nilla on August 26, 2015, 11:48:39 AM
Yes. I'm sure you are both right and I thought like you @irrelevant that these "gender distribution" unbalance wouldn't have that impact in this large settlement, but as we see, it sometimes does.

There are some other things, that have an influence on the population:

The gender of the people who dies. If there are a large number of old widows/widowers, that occupies homes by themselves, there will be less houses free for new couples.

Than we have this separations. I am pretty sure, that in periods when the population is low, there are less families, than houses. That means separations. I don't know how to prevent this and I have never seen couples moving in together again spontaneously. So even if there are about the same number of separations in every cycle (and I don't think it is) the impact is different, depending on the age of the separated couples.

So I suppose with these random effects combined, there are these variations even in such a large settlement as GP.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 26, 2015, 03:24:07 PM
Year 459

My plans changed, I came home this evening, will be gone tomorrow night.

The last two pop cycles have been much better behaved than the previous four or five were. That makes things run so much better. Just need to rebalance log, wool, and iron inventories, and I'll be good to go for tomorrow.

Food is in great shape, as a result.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: getting the rest of the achievements
Post by: xyris on August 27, 2015, 09:55:25 PM

Good luck! I'd be interested to see your progress. My top tip would be, don't try to do it without schools! ;)

If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask. I love answering questions. ;D

Thank you!  I haven't been playing lately, I'll have to get back to it. 


Just need to rebalance log, wool, and iron inventories, and I'll be good to go for tomorrow.

Food is in great shape, as a result.

Yes, I found out about rebalancing. The food level dropped significantly because the barns closest to the crops were full of wool. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 28, 2015, 06:52:59 AM

Good luck! I'd be interested to see your progress. My top tip would be, don't try to do it without schools! ;)

If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask. I love answering questions. ;D

Thank you!  I haven't been playing lately, I'll have to get back to it. 


Just need to rebalance log, wool, and iron inventories, and I'll be good to go for tomorrow.

Food is in great shape, as a result.

Yes, I found out about rebalancing. The food level dropped significantly because the barns closest to the crops were full of wool. 


@xyris  I have found that balancing wool and leather is one of the biggest challenges. The main reason for this is that there is no separate graph for these commodities, so you either have to go from memory of past inventory levels, or else you have to keep track on paper. Neither is ideal.

As you have seen, wool and leather compete with food for barn space, so it is essential not to let this go uncontrolled. My solution has been to put all leather into the TPs, and to make wool coats. I have limited my wool production to be somewhat less than enough to keep my tailors supplied, and I supplement my production by auto-trading for small quantities of wool; I buy 50-200 wool from every resource boat. I've also set a limit of 9000 on wool coats, and I do not normally use wool coats for trade. I try to keep 2000-4000 wool in stock. If I have lots of coats and lots of wool, I'll put a few wool coats in each TP (50-100, never more).

Tools are similar, although I have no iron production at all and so all iron is purchased. There is a limit of 9000 on tool production, and I keep a close watch on how much iron I have in stock. I try to keep 4000-8000 iron on hand, and adjust auto-purchasing as needed.  I never use tools for trade. If you are not sitting watching your town run, trading away tools is asking for trouble. Plus, with uneducated, there is 0 profit in iron tools.

I also buy 50 steel tools from every resource merchant.

Note that I have just 8 TPs, and I place orders with all merchants for everything I need. Every time I come to the town after I have let it run all day or overnight, I find I need to go through and make some changes to the auto-trading, and perhaps also some changes to merchant orders. I currently am ordering logs, wool, iron, and steel tools from the resource merchants; apples, pecans, logs, and iron from the general goods merchants; and apples and pecans from the food merchants.

What I am trading away is moderate amounts of firewood (500-1000 in each TP, firewood production limit is currently 32,000), all mushrooms, all venison, all mutton, all leather, all ale, and 2500 beans per TP.

I am running with the mod that prevents seed and livestock merchants from coming.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 28, 2015, 03:08:45 PM
Year 507  :)

Crashed out after running unattended for 16 hours. The town is in such good shape, I'm confident if it hadn't crashed it would still be alive after the 34 hours that I was gone.

I have to say, this makes me happy.  :D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: xyris on August 28, 2015, 03:49:41 PM
Those graphs are so impressive! Stable at 500 years is some achievement.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 28, 2015, 08:36:29 PM
@xyris, thanks! It feels pretty good.

I only wish @snapster were here to tell me I was being stupid and shortsighted, and that what I'm doing is too easy ;) (you had to be here a few months ago to get this)

Tomorrow I will have the opportunity to let GP run ~24 hours unattended.

I guess I am going for 1000 years. Could probly do that in a week or two.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 29, 2015, 01:33:21 PM
year 538 - getting ready to let it run 18 hours
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: Nilla on August 29, 2015, 04:57:00 PM
Yes I agree! it's very impressive.

Have you done anything to make the population graph look like that? I mean so regular.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 29, 2015, 08:40:59 PM
Nope, it's just doing whatever it feels like doing. All I'm fussing with is trading.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 500 years
Post by: Nilla on August 30, 2015, 03:47:43 AM
So that "bad" cycle, back in 300 something was just bad luck, some circumstances that worked together in an disadvantageous way. Interesting.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 30, 2015, 05:49:05 PM
@Nilla There was one die-off that was steeper than the others. It corresponded with running out of firewood, so it may have been freezing, or it could have been one of the nastier diseases. But It did seem to throw off the equilibrium of the sine wave.

Year 600

Ran 27 hours straight, unattended for all but 3-4 hours.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2015, 06:43:52 AM
Closing in on year 700. The game is still running continuously on 5x since Saturday 29 Aug, except for three hours yesterday afternoon (crashed out).

Year 700
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: xyris on September 01, 2015, 04:41:53 PM
 700 is amazing!  8)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2015, 05:49:49 PM
GP is doing all the work now, I'm just along for the ride.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 02, 2015, 01:37:10 AM
GP is doing all the work now, I'm just along for the ride.
You're too modest. To get there you need to have a very good feeling for what they (GP) are doing. It doesn't work by itself, unless it's very good balanced. In every aspect. And I must say, as always; very good work.

You haven't shown the profession list lately. If you suspect, that a disease caused that trouble you had some 100 years ago. How many doctors do you have. And what are your thoughts about location of hospitals. Because I think now, the only thing that really can disturb the balance, is a really bad disease. So I suppose you have more doctors in good locations than usually.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 02, 2015, 06:11:03 AM
You're too modest. To get there you need to have a very good feeling for what they (GP) are doing. It doesn't work by itself, unless it's very good balanced. In every aspect. And I must say, as always; very good work.

Thanks @Nilla!  :)

You haven't shown the profession list lately. If you suspect, that a disease caused that trouble you had some 100 years ago. How many doctors do you have. And what are your thoughts about location of hospitals. Because I think now, the only thing that really can disturb the balance, is a really bad disease. So I suppose you have more doctors in good locations than usually.

That steeper than normal die-off was 450 325 years ago  ;) :D The professions list has changed very little since then. I now have fewer farmers (changed a number of wheat fields to beans, and cut back all bean fields to a single farmer) and more traders (20/TP; it's the only way I can be sure to have enough goods--esp ale, venison, and mutton--available for trade every time the merchants come). I'll put up the professions panel in the next picture.

I now have 10 hospitals, most of them in good locations, but there is one near the middle of town that isn't really in such a good spot. I've done what I could to make its location unattractive as a thoroughfare, but there are always local workers nearby, mainly farmers.  Of course the trade off always is, is it better to have one in a less than ideal location, or to make sick bannies walk farther to get to their hospital?

I get disease outbreaks quite often, every year or two it seems, and I've watched many of them sputter out, limited to patient 0 or to the second generation. Only one outbreak really took hold, cholera IIRC, and even that one only infected ~30-40 at its peak. GP is not a dense town, and I think that in my case here this is more important than hospitals in keeping outbreaks from going out of control.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 02, 2015, 05:56:39 PM
Year 749 - the power went out shortly after 0900 today, so the game wasn't running for nearly nine hours  :(

Here's the bad hospital and the professions panel.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 03, 2015, 04:12:28 PM
Year 800

You can see on the professions tab that there are fewer workers than slots for some jobs (farmers, choppers, etc). Pop fell below the number of job assignments just slightly. Now on the way back up, you can see the new laborers
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 03, 2015, 06:24:41 PM
Year 806

The latest graphs.

Production limits and stats.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 04, 2015, 03:19:56 AM
Iīve said it before; these graphs are so impressive! Go for the 1000!  :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 06, 2015, 10:28:40 AM
@Nilla I am, I am! :)

Year 891

Nothing very interesting is happening. GP would be much farther along, but just about 45 minutes after I left home for 18 hours on Friday evening, a cat took a stroll across my keyboard and stepped on the spacebar. ::)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 07, 2015, 04:10:56 AM
GP would be much farther along, but just about 45 minutes after I left home for 18 hours on Friday evening, a cat took a stroll across my keyboard and stepped on the spacebar. ::)

Yea, the computer cats! To my experience, they like it even more when a human tries to do some work at the computer.  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 07, 2015, 02:39:43 PM
Just sitting here with my assistants trying to reach 1000.

I mouse lefthanded, so the black and white one is really helping a lot. ::)

Year 944, three years per hour on 10X (sigh).
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: OldnRetired on September 07, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
I guess you have no trouble getting an accurate "Cat-Scan" ....... Two at a time !!!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 07, 2015, 11:27:34 PM
@OldnRetired I have four cats, sometimes they all help. That's often when I walk away.  ;);D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Barring power failures, crashes, and helpful cats, today should be the day! This morning I left GP running on 2X, year 990.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2015, 03:04:49 PM
Year 1009

And, done! :P
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 08, 2015, 03:39:15 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!

you are crazy !!!!!!!!

wow ! CONGRATULATIONS !!!!
we can say your are the Master of... Total Efficiency Towns !
Thats another Mastery to add to your long list :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2015, 04:56:49 PM
@RedKetchup merci, mon ami!  :) You are too kind.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
Year 1018 (I'm in the middle of an experiment)  ;)

Crop porn

The market in this shot is over 1000 years old, as are many of the buildings around it.

The barn just to the left of the market is the original barn. And the potato field just below that barn has been there since year 2 (not always potatoes, though).
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: assobanana76 on September 09, 2015, 01:32:44 AM
Year 1009

And, done! :P

great!! compliments!!
chapeau!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 09, 2015, 03:09:46 AM
I knew you would make it! Congratulations from me as well.

Year 1018 (I'm in the middle of an experiment)  ;)


1018! Are you never satisfied? Looks like you really want to teach your cats how to play Banished. I wish you much luck! Teaching cats anything they don't want is a task. I know! We have had a number of cats (and dogs and other animals) but no pet at the moment.

If your experiment isn't teaching the cats how to play computer games; tell us more about it!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 09, 2015, 06:28:53 AM
Thank you @assobanana76! Thanks @Nilla!

The experiment is to explore the relationship between foresters on the one hand and herbalists and gatherers on the other. What effect does the relative age and condition of the managed forest have on herb and food production within that forest? People have varying ideas about this, but I've never seen anyone do a study of it.

I've selected an isolated forest group and set the four foresters to plant only, and I'm recording annual output of herbalist and gatherer as the forest becomes increasingly dense. So far the results have not been what I expected to find, but I'm not finished yet and will write more about that this evening.

After I get the forest as dense as it can possibly be (when annual herbalist and gatherer output seems no longer to be changing), I'll set the foresters to Cut + Plant, and see what happens to annual herbalist and gatherer output as the forest thins out.

Yes, I learned long ago that you can train a cat to do anything, as long as that thing is exactly what the cat wants to do in the first place. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: assobanana76 on September 10, 2015, 12:17:50 AM
as I recall in my last city I dedicated a forest at the forester and one at gatherer / herbalist, but as I usually did not pay much attention to the results .. I was just hoping to increase the production of logs since I had freed up more space .. but then the city has made crash, i did not quite understand why, so ..
Your experiment will tell me if the my idea was good or not ..
thank you!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: xyris on September 10, 2015, 02:50:06 AM
Absolutely amazing.  Congratulations!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 10, 2015, 07:59:26 AM
@xyris thanks!

as I recall in my last city I dedicated a forest at the forester and one at gatherer / herbalist, but as I usually did not pay much attention to the results .. I was just hoping to increase the production of logs since I had freed up more space .. but then the city has made crash, i did not quite understand why, so ..
Your experiment will tell me if the my idea was good or not ..
thank you!

I didn't get to work on this much last night, hopefully finish up tonight.

But I doubt whether anything you did regarding one or two forest circles could have enough impact to cause your town to crash.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: assobanana76 on September 10, 2015, 08:06:39 AM
oh no .. the crash is probably due to some mod, or the combination of a few mods, or the graphics settings (error reporting more frequent concerns DX9) or who knows what else!  :'(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 10, 2015, 02:03:44 PM
Good idea!
I have studied the combination gatherer/forester a lot but not in a "scientific" way; making notes.

My conclusions were; if you want to optimize food+logs. 2 foresters together with the gatherers is the best. My impression was, that you could get even more food from the gatherer if you turn the forester off (no cutting, no planting) in the right moment; forest dense but not too dense. Last time I made some experiments like that, was in that attempt for the mountain king we made together. There were enough logs and we wanted to produce as much food as possible. It seemed to be better to have 2 foresters in one node and none in the next, than one forester in each. I think I wrote a little bit about it somewhere, too.

But as I said; I'm not sure of anything of this. It will be very interesting to see your results.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2015, 11:17:51 AM
Year 1042

Well, I don't really know what to think about what I've been seeing. I'll start with the one obvious thing.

An herbalist will produce like gangbusters in a very dense forest where no cutting is taking place. When I started the experiment, the (uneducated, remember) herbalist was producing in the 20/year range. In addition to the herbalist, this forest circle has a gatherers' hut with four workers, a hunting cabin with one hunter, and one forester cabin with four workers set to cut and plant. At the start, I set the forester to plant only. The herbalist's output increased rapidly, and within 5 years was producing 100/year. This continued for five more years, until I turned cutting back on at the forester. Production quickly went back down to the 20/year range.

Now, what's happening with the gatherer? I wish I could figure it out, but so far it has me baffled. When I stopped the forester from cutting, the (uneducated) 4-man crew at the gatherers hut was producing an average of ~2200/year. As the forest grew denser, production at the hut increased to ~2500/year. I had expected to find that as the forest grew denser, there would be less space available for the forest food to grow in, and production would decline. But the high point came of 2652 came 7 years after I turned cutting off.

After 10 years, I turned cutting back on.

Production at the gatherers' hut declined immediately, at first right back to the ~2200 level it had been at before I stopped the forester cutting, and then it declined even farther, down to ~2000. The low point of ~1760 came 7 years after cutting started again.

Then, for reasons not clear to me, production started climbing again, trending pretty steadily upward over the next 20 years or so. The average now is in the 2300-2400 range.

Going to keep watching.


Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
Year 1048

I may have figured it out. There is one data item that the gatherer's output curve is tracking very closely, and that is the pop curve. As the number of laborers falls, so does the production at this outlying gatherers' hut.

I've always felt that this was true, that if there weren't enough laborers to store the gatherers' harvest, the gatherers would have to store it themselves and output would suffer; I didn't think that it would be more important than the state of the forest though. Now I'm tempted to say that the condition of the forest has essentially no effect on gatherer production at all.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: Nilla on September 12, 2015, 03:04:52 PM
Interesting. One question: Do you cut with 4 cutters or less? As far as I have noticed the gatherers produce less if you cut heavily but not if you cut more careful with less foresters.

But sure, itīs like all other Banished production: the logistic is the most important part.

Iīm looking forward for your next report.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: xyris on September 14, 2015, 10:55:10 PM
Quote
I've always felt that this was true, that if there weren't enough laborers to store the gatherers' harvest, the gatherers would have to store it themselves and output would suffer;

Thank you!   I wondered why the gatherer output dropped  That explains it.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 15, 2015, 05:47:51 AM
Interesting. One question: Do you cut with 4 cutters or less? As far as I have noticed the gatherers produce less if you cut heavily but not if you cut more careful with less foresters.

But sure, itīs like all other Banished production: the logistic is the most important part.

Iīm looking forward for your next report.
@Nilla that was with four foresters the whole time. I may repeat the experiment with two foresters at some point, but keeping the rest of GP running at the same time is such tedious work! It was way past time for me to start a new town (Beanblossom).

@xyris you're welcome! :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on June 17, 2017, 06:41:24 PM
Here is the last save I have from this town.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: brads3 on June 17, 2017, 07:00:49 PM
that was an amazing town that went a long time.i hope to see more of what you come up with.glad to see you are still playing.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on June 20, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
that was an amazing town that went a long time.i hope to see more of what you come up with.glad to see you are still playing.
Thank you!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 30, 2017, 04:56:18 PM
Twelve hours unattended, just because.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on August 30, 2017, 05:01:33 PM
Twelve hours unattended, just because.

just because it has now .... over 1000 years ? lol

when you will have space crafts ? lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: irrelevant on August 30, 2017, 05:17:19 PM
Just because it's all set up and fine-tuned, and all I have to do is start it up before I go to work  ;D

My 6000 pop record got left in the dust, maybe if I get GP to 2000 years, I'll have something no one else will be able to beat....or even want to try!

Don't worry, when I'm sitting in front of my computer, I'm working on NMT crops.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: now trying for extreme tenure, 1000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on August 30, 2017, 06:15:11 PM
Don't worry, when I'm sitting in front of my computer, I'm working on NMT crops.

sweet :) i count on you to produce something like this http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=2 (http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=2) for the new crops :)
btw, it reminds me to add those numbers for the vanilla ones :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on August 30, 2017, 06:22:07 PM
@RedKetchup Yes, I am planning to do exactly this. It will take me a few days though. I still don't even have all the seeds purchased, and I want to grow all the crops for a few years to get a feel for them.

Looks like I still have five left to buy.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on August 31, 2017, 05:12:52 PM
Year 1174.  Twenty hours unattended. The only tweaking needed after that time is to refill the vacant professions from the bottom of the sine wave, and split pastures to refill the ones that died from not having a herdsman.

Tomorrow evening I'll post a professions panel showing the vacant professions from the next bottom. Note here I've added four redundant herdsmen as a hedge against this, herdsmen is the one profession where unfilled jobs really hurts; when herdsmen say bye-bye, sheep die.  ;)

99% clothed? I've got 5000 coats in stock, if you're running around naked, that's on you.  :o
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on August 31, 2017, 06:01:50 PM
how comes with 900 laborers.... shepperds deaths havent be replaced ? lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on August 31, 2017, 06:11:20 PM
how comes with 900 laborers.... shepperds deaths havent be replaced ? lol
The pop swings from ~2000 adults at the high to ~750-850 at the low, and I have 907 professionals. The laborers all disappear first, but after that it's random what professionals die. When the sine wave starts back up, in an unattended town, all the new workers are just laborers. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on August 31, 2017, 09:21:56 PM
i take it you experimented and that was the best balance you found?i know many players have tried to find a stable population that self-maintains.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2017, 04:19:50 AM
@RedKetchup Here's what happens, you can see all the laborers are gone, and we're not quite at the bottom yet.

@brads3 No, not really. In fact I would say that this town is far from ideal. But it was the one I used to get the tenure achievement, and then it just kept going.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 01, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
ouch. thats really a bad curve that repeate all the time . nothing can be done to smooth the curve ?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2017, 07:35:25 AM
No, that's a fact of life in a 100% uneducated town where no new houses are ever built. Educated would be similar, but with less drastic swings.

I suppose an interesting experiment would be to build a bunch of schools....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 01, 2017, 08:51:59 AM
i don't think education would matter. it seems to be related to housing and population.  i take it you ran this with vanilla age speed as well. i know it has been attempted but i don't know of anyone that has found a "happy" equilibrium balance. which is why i asked.not trying to be critical at all.what is your housing count? i would guess it is near 500.with 2000 adults it should be 1000.
   the town i am running now,i never get the housing up where i want it.the game expands the population fast enough that it has been consistently 100 houses short of where i think it should be.and this is with a 1:1 propertime mod.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2017, 10:06:36 AM
@brads3 There are 558 houses. The town is all vanilla.

The reason I think educated would have a flatter sine wave is because education would delay the girls having children until they finish school.

The sine wave is caused by

1) available houses all filling up on the upswing of the pop curve

2) birth rate declines because there are no houses for new families to form in, pop curve levels off

3) normal die-off of oldsters far exceeds new births, pop curve heads down

4) as houses open up for new families, births begin to climb, pop curve starts to level off

5) finally there are houses available for all new families, pop curve turns back up.

Delaying the age at which girls have children should slow the increase some, plus fewer child-bearing years could possibly reduce the number of children that some families have.


Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2017, 07:24:30 PM
Well, this should be interesting, the first structures I've built in over 1000 years, 13 schools. Not going to start them up just yet, I'll wait until the pop curve is approaching the bottom. I think that will be the least disruptive time to start, and will have the maximum effect on slowing the pop growth of the next wave.

I also shut down all of the smiths, since I hardly ever make tools any longer. This also will save me from having to buy iron.

I also shut down all of the foresters, as logs are cheap and I get plenty through trade. This freed up 62 workers, which should help mitigate the effects of the professional die-off at the bottom of the pop wave.

One thing I hadn't thought of until now, education will increase my food production; I may need to build more barns @Nilla  ;D ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 01, 2017, 07:49:54 PM
yes,educated workers will increase the production. i think adding schools without housing will delay the curve.not convinced it will totally stop the yoyo wave though.your average house has how many generations in it? 3 or 4? so quite a few have to die off before there is room for new children. i don't want to see you kill such a long map. the schools could delay the child bearing of the recovery and make the whole thing worse even.be careful.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 01, 2017, 08:39:25 PM
yes,educated workers will increase the production. i think adding schools without housing will delay the curve.not convinced it will totally stop the yoyo wave though.your average house has how many generations in it? 3 or 4? so quite a few have to die off before there is room for new children. i don't want to see you kill such a long map. the schools could delay the child bearing of the recovery and make the whole thing worse even.be careful.

I'll make a save before I turn on the schools, don't worry about that. ;)

No, it won't stop the sine wave, but I believe it will flatten it out, which is all I want.

You can have only two generations in one house, two parents and their three children is the max.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 02, 2017, 07:37:19 AM
Year 1273

Activated 14 schools in 1246, near the bottom of the pop wave. The wave is definitely flatter now, and it's cycle time seems to have increased, but who knows what it's going to do as it nears the next trough. Still lost a few professionals (15 or so) when all the laborers died off.

At the top of the wave, 14 schools was not enough, you can see the educated % dip, that's when the schools got full. One thing I didn't consider was that when I turned the schools on, there were more houses than families. This led to students marrying and moving into houses of their own, houses that were no doubt very far from their schools in many cases, resulting in long delays in their graduation.

In retrospect, I should have activated the schools when the number of families exceeded the number of houses, doing so would have alleviated some of that. Oh well.

Town needs rebalancing, got too much wool, too many coats. Going to shut down some farms as all that food production no longer is needed. But no time for Banished just now, and when I do have time I'm going to be testing the revised @RedKetchup crops in my other active town.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 02, 2017, 01:51:12 PM
Year 1289

So I came back from 6 hours of work and errand-running to this.

Introducing education has worked out much as I expected, only better. :)

Instead of swinging between 2000 and 800, it looks like my work force now will fluctuate between 1400 and 1000. This will take care of the problem of the professionals dying off. I'll even be able to add some traders and vendors.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 02, 2017, 02:11:51 PM
impressive. glad it worked out.am surprised just the education balanced it that well.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 02, 2017, 02:26:25 PM
Thanks! It's important to remember that lack of education has demographic effects in addition what it does to production.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 02, 2017, 04:23:25 PM
Thanks! It's important to remember that lack of education has demographic effects in addition what it does to production.

education is a must in every cities no matter what :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 03, 2017, 06:41:12 PM
Year 1342

The new pop curve is still seeking its equilibrium.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 03, 2017, 09:35:08 PM
your sin* and cos* lines are better
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 04, 2017, 04:32:39 PM
Year 1403

This is interesting, a deep trough followed by a shallow one, twice in a row exactly the same, looks like it's going to do it again.

I wonder if this has to do with the fact that my schools fill up, there isn't enough room for everyone to become educated? Guessing that it might, I knocked down the chapel and built two more schools....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 04, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
looks like more bannies have to die off and then the number of students can increase.the schools have space but no bannies that need them.i think in some houses old bannies are dying and the next set can't have children since they are up there in age also.then as more die,the houses are replenished with younger bannies that can have children. that is what i ment by having 4th generation and 3rd in houses. that being said,more schools might delay the population recovering and actually smooth the student line out.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 04, 2017, 05:49:50 PM
You can see the "student" line on the graph flattening out at the top, every time. That means no space for more students. This means some uneducated adults, with corresponding demographic shenanigans. Is that what's causing the intermittent tall peaks and deep dips in the pop curve? We'll see.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 05, 2017, 03:49:05 AM
Two more schools wasn't enough, 14% uneducated  :(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 06, 2017, 04:12:53 AM
Year 1520

Built one more school in 1480, looks like that might have done it.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 06, 2017, 06:04:28 PM
Wow, came home to a tool crisis, no tools (I'd had 7000 tools when I left home this morning) and 400 tool-less bannies. Good thing it didn't go on longer. Fortunately had 800 iron, turned on the 11 smiths and started overriding the tool auto-purchases. Took some time to get the merchies to bring iron, I had canceled all iron orders 2-3 centuries ago. Then the iron started arriving, and there wasn't room in the TPs to buy it, they were full of mushrooms!

That was exciting. Not sure what caused it though.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 06, 2017, 09:25:31 PM
yes a bannies can break down his tool and need another one...
but also, when a bannie die: tool get lost, a new baby born: need a tool
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 07, 2017, 11:23:41 AM
yes a bannies can break down his tool and need another one...
but also, when a bannie die: tool get lost, a new baby born: need a tool
Yes, but that had been happening for 1600 years already!  ;)

I believe what happened here was that the pop curve changing resulted in a slightly higher consumption of tools than had previously been the case. My auto-purchases were still set up for what was needed before I built the last schools. Tool consumption hadn't really seemed to change all that much, but when you are running unattended for 11 hours at a time, even a slight downward trend in some commodity can reach zero before you discover it.

Right now running unattended from 7:30 this morning until 2:30 tomorrow afternoon (31 hours). Did I get the tools back under control? We'll find out  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2017, 03:38:52 PM
Year 1705

Ran out of iron, and the barns are full of leather, wool, tools, and coats. A few unfilled professions, and less logs and food than I would like to have, but no big problems after 34.5 hours unattended.

Pop curve is settling down nicely.

This is a nice little town here in the attachment. Quite self-sufficient with its TP and market, two choppers near the port, two breweries on the market. And surrounded by farms to feed it.

The swath of fields to the left of the market is a pretty good example of my approach to farming. Housing and storage adjacent to every field.

Gopher Prairie has 14 little towns like this. Fun to tinker with.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 08, 2017, 03:45:10 PM
Not sure where this hunter is finding his deer, but certainly demonstrates that a hunting cabin doesn't need to be in the woods to be a decent producer!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 09, 2017, 04:26:50 PM
Year 1763 - Guess this new asymmetrical pop curve is the new normal. Keeps repeating those two peak/valley combos.

I think if I had enough schools that would regulate it. But I have no idea how many "enough" might be, and finding out seems like more work than I care to do.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 09, 2017, 09:02:12 PM
you did smoothe it out. i can't imagine playing a map that long. would seem to be boring after it was built so far.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 09, 2017, 09:58:58 PM
@brads3 Well, there's lots of tinkering, it's interesting. Plus most of the time, it's just running by itself.

Built 7 more schools in "underserved" areas. Let's see what that does.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 10, 2017, 06:30:27 PM
Year 1807

Pop curve still has not settled down. Took batches of nomads (71 and 98) near the bottom of the past two cycles, to avoid running out of laborers and to try to change my demographic mix, hoping to change the curve in a positive way. Just grasping at straws here.

If anyone is interested in poking around this ant farm, I am attaching the latest save. Note that you probably will need to have some mods as shown in the first image, and should you upload this town, you could possibly get achievements (or not, not really sure).

Who knows, you might not need the mods. @RedKetchup what do you think? Smaller Vendor Buildings for sure I'd say, I have three of the small Farm Stands built. Don't know about the others.

If you do download it and if it doesn't crash, you should be able to just let it run as long as you like without managing anything.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 10, 2017, 07:24:19 PM
Who was it who said, "no matter what your problem is, nomads are almost never going to be the solution.?"

Oh, yeah; that was me. ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 11, 2017, 02:29:53 AM
Year 1833

Interesting, the most recent trough was pretty similar to the two previous ones, both of which were altered by taking the nomads. Sure would be nice if this would continue.

You can see in the professions panel the extent of job loss at the bottom, I'm 26 professionals short. I could live with that easily enough by short-staffing some gatherers, foresters, and fishers, or maybe close down a few more farms.

If not, I've thought of a couple more things I can try. I could go on a house-building program, build 20-30 new houses, which would give me a larger laborer pool. Or I could shut down all the excess houses at the next bottom (about 100 houses), and gradually recover them back into use over 10-20 years, the same number each year. This would slow the curve on the upswing, probably make it not climb so high, and possibly flatten out the wave significantly.   
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 11, 2017, 05:57:49 PM
Year 1878

Will the pop curve behave, or will it drop thru the floor? The suspense!  :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 11, 2017, 07:48:16 PM
Year 1884

Oh, yeah.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 11, 2017, 08:48:40 PM
Year 1878

Will the pop curve behave, or will it drop thru the floor? The suspense!  :)

dont forget around 1969 you need a citizen called Amstrong and you need to send him to a new map called :The Moon !.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2017, 08:55:39 AM
And in 2017 I'll need one named @RedKetchup to create that mod.....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: brads3 on September 12, 2017, 09:03:38 AM
LOL good job IRR
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 12, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
And in 2017 I'll need one named @RedKetchup to create that mod.....

whats about a space shuttle in wood with a stone base ? lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2017, 05:04:10 PM
LOL good job IRR
@brads3 Thanks! It sure seems like taking the nomads knocked that pop curve into shape, anyway....

I'm going to choose to believe that was it  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2017, 05:05:37 PM
And in 2017 I'll need one named @RedKetchup to create that mod.....

whats about a space shuttle in wood with a stone base ? lol
Might be just a bit off, I think.... :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 1000 (or maybe 2000) years
Post by: irrelevant on September 12, 2017, 05:27:48 PM
Year 1956

Getting close to my goal, maybe tomorrow.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2017 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 13, 2017, 11:20:51 AM
Year 2017, Late Summer

And, done!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on September 13, 2017, 11:39:42 AM
CONGRATS!!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on September 13, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
woot !!!

Congratulations @irrelevant  !
The longest EVERLASTING city !
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Abandoned on September 13, 2017, 01:37:21 PM
Amazing  :)  well done.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on September 13, 2017, 04:34:39 PM
Thanks, everyone! I'm pleased with this. Now working on something different. :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on October 18, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
Year 2129, just because I can.  ;D

GP reminds me of a model train layout. The work is more or less all done, every once in awhile it's fun to fire it up and watch the trains go around.

Actually, I have been making a number of changes, first time in many years. I added 6 TPs, 2 on the river and 4 on landlocked lakes just for overflow storage when my barns filled up with junk. I took out a few farms and one pasture and built 30 new houses and at least that many new barns. Ten new breweries, a couple hunters, four new farm stands, and tore down four woodchoppers.

A couple of times I took nomads in an effort to change the pop sine wave, jury is still out on that effort.   
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on October 21, 2017, 03:47:19 PM
Year 2294

Image 1 - The pop sine wave is much more regular now.

Image 2 - Thinking of the first major expansion in 2000 years, 2 markets, 6-8 breweries, farms, appropriate housing. and two TPs replacing the forest groups here.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on October 21, 2017, 05:10:06 PM
Course if I do this it will be the end of unattended running for the next 30 years. But I think the town needs this.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on October 27, 2017, 09:14:06 PM
Year 2319

Phase One of the new development - Village 11 13
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Abandoned on November 03, 2017, 04:25:22 PM
 :) very nice @irrelevant , I can't imagine playing a map like this, much less letting it play itself.  Impressive.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 04, 2017, 06:51:48 AM
:) very nice @irrelevant , I can't imagine playing a map like this, much less letting it play itself.  Impressive.
@Abandoned thanks for the kind words. I'm not very creative/artistic like you, @brads3, and @Paeng are; I'm a technician, and messing around with this town is fun for me.   
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Abandoned on November 04, 2017, 06:55:04 AM
@irrelevant , that is what makes it interesting  :)  We each play different.  We are missing @Nilla who is so good with production numbers and comparisons.  :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 04, 2017, 07:04:41 AM
yes, @Nilla is the best. I hope she returns one day.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 04, 2017, 07:12:23 PM
Year 2323

Villages 13 and 14.

Trying to decide whether to run unattended, or build village 15, replacing the forest group across the river.

No, can't run unattended until I see how low the new pop curve goes at the bottom. I've built 50 new houses, added 70 professionals in the past ten years.

Now producing 20,000 ale annually from 43 brewers.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 04, 2017, 10:14:49 PM
i wish i could build a city as big without errors kicking me out. you hold the record on time also.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 05, 2017, 04:20:48 PM
Wow, 23,890 ale from 43 brewers, average 555.6/brewer.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 05, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
you hold the record on time also.
That is indeed my goal, that no one will ever surpass this town.   ;)

Going to get it back in auto-run condition, this time with no danger of professionals all dying, and letting it go for....how many years?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 05, 2017, 05:06:32 PM
That is indeed my goal, that no one will ever surpass this town.   ;)


for sure !!!!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 05, 2017, 06:33:57 PM
 :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: galensgranny on November 05, 2017, 11:16:26 PM
That's amazing that you had a town go for so long, irrelevant! 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 07, 2017, 07:48:50 AM
That's amazing that you had a town go for so long, irrelevant!
@galensgranny thanks very much  :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 07, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Year 2339

So since I built those houses the pop curve is definitely doing something different. This last trough I still had over 300 laborers, so I have some room to play here.

Since I have many farms that are turned off, I'm can make some big changes with food production. Shut down all hunters, bumped up all fishers to maximum staff. Stopped buying nuts. This should still take care of protein, and now I don't have to fuss around with two kinds of textiles. Simplify!

Shut down all gatherers to stop my barns from filling up with mushrooms, and converted 8-10 farms into 20 new 15x4 peach orchards to make up for the lost berry production. Didn't want to do this before as I use two farmers per orchard, two of which (four farmers) take the same space as one farm with a single farmer. But if my laborer cushion is going to be 300, I can afford this.

Still have a bunch of wool in TP's, will gradually return that to general inventory for coat production. I'll let my guys eat the mutton instead of trying to trade it away (which only ever happens manually in any case).

If I am short food, I still have about 25 farms I can start back up, even after converting several into orchards. Plus, there is plenty of forest available to clear out if needed, since all I'm taking from forestry now is logs and herbs.

That's a lot of change in a town that didn't change much for 2000 years!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 08, 2017, 08:06:33 AM
Most of the changes I have made/am making here are in response to my discovery that only the highest trade value (TV) item in the TPs ever gets traded away in auto-trading. So even though I was putting mutton, vension, wool, leather, coats, and mushrooms in my TPs, the only stuff that ever got traded away was ale and firewood. I was having to do a considerable amount of manual trading to get rid of the other stuff, and manual trading is exactly what I am trying to avoid.

So now I am basically down to trading just ale and firewood. I'm going to need to refine what stocks of each I have in each of my 12 active TPs, so that some TPs have a higher TV of firewood, and the rest have a higher TV of ale. It will take some fussing around to get this balanced so that the appropriate amount of firewood is getting traded away. Right now my ale production is maxed out because I trade it all away, but firewood production is very inefficient as it keeps getting shut off by hitting the inventory limit.

I can't just go ahead and raise the limit indefinitely because there are only so many stockpiles, even on a large map. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 11, 2017, 04:07:36 PM
Year 2369

Ran unattended overnight. The pop curve swung much lower, looks like it's in a two-phase variation again, one moderate cycle followed by a severe one. Lost 130 professionals including many farmers, to the point where food production didn't keep up. This won't do!  ;)

Filled all the vacancies and added back 2 gatherers per hut, until I get the food back up to 800k or so.

Previously when I had a two-phase cycle like this, I found that accepting nomads on the down curve helped regularize the pattern. I'll probably try this again.

Also all but ran out of iron. Iron/tool strategy needs some work.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 11, 2017, 04:12:43 PM
with that many laborers i am surprised it would drop the population to the point of starvation.i wonder if a 1:1 age mod would actually solve this. the world will never know cause nobody will run a game as far.lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 14, 2017, 05:35:56 PM
Year 2397

Dude.

Working on creating new families near the top of the curve, using fake demos.

with that many laborers i am surprised it would drop the population to the point of starvation.i wonder if a 1:1 age mod would actually solve this. the world will never know cause nobody will run a game as far.lol

As long as the curve is swinging like it is, hundreds of laborers can die in just a few years with very few replacements.

Hoping for a band of nomads in the next couple of years, that's what I need to give this pop curve a nice kick.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 14, 2017, 06:45:59 PM
Year 2399

And there ya go.

Hope it's not smallpox.

Typhus. Not great, could be worse.

How do homeless people decide which hospital to go to?

Got up to 17 sick guys; I was able to stop it by jumping on each new case and firing him from his job. When you do that they go straight to the hospital. Nothing you can do about children, students, and laborers of course, but you can do what you can do.

And hard on the heels comes dysentery, not so bad.

That one got up to 4.

I'd take another band of nomads in the next 5-6 years. Want to slam this pop curve hard.

Still year 2399. Influenza. The mildest disease.

Stopped at patient zero.

Early Spring 2400. Mumps. Lowest chance of transmission of all diseases. But it's an idling child, the worst. Lucky break, he fell ill near his home, which was near a hospital. Stopped at patient zero.

Summer 2400, looks like that's it for now. I did identify a weakness in my hospital arrangements, and am building one more.

Nomads can be useful, but they certainly are filthy!

Be sure to check out the "Diseases" thread: http://worldofbanished.com/index.php?topic=357.msg4517#msg4517
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 15, 2017, 04:49:38 AM
yikes,huh. wonder if those diseases is what has been affecting your population swings before? never even thought about that side. according to SLINK's chart, you should have a third of the working adults set to laborers as insurance.then no matter what disease occurs,you wouldn't lose a assigned worker. that is a huge amount.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 15, 2017, 06:28:26 AM
yikes,huh. wonder if those diseases is what has been affecting your population swings before? never even thought about that side. according to SLINK's chart, you should have a third of the working adults set to laborers as insurance.then no matter what disease occurs,you wouldn't lose a assigned worker. that is a huge amount.
Pretty sure not. It would show up as a nearly vertical drop in the 100-year pop curve.

None of my guys died because of these disease outbreaks. Unless you get one of the really nasty ones (Plague, 33%, Cholera 25%, Smallpox 20%), only a very small % will be fatal.

When you do get a disease outbreak, it will be Plague only 1% of the time.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 15, 2017, 06:09:53 PM
Another band of nomads came in 2402. This time only 104 of them.

Was not expecting more so soon, still have more families than houses. If it was a larger group I'd take them, but this small lot is not worth chasing down sick guys for the next year over.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 17, 2017, 08:12:57 PM
Year 2406

Took a band of nomads near the bottom of the pop curve. Got 6 disease outbreaks in less than 2 years. ::)

Okay, and now, back to running unattended. :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: pappa on November 18, 2017, 07:03:22 AM
Its amazing one can go this long with one map.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 18, 2017, 05:48:19 PM
@pappa  it's a fun town to play around with.

Year 2436 - woke up this morning to a food crisis. I have no idea what happened; there was no die-off of farmers, all farms were fully-staffed. Took several hours of manual trading and fiddling around with food producers to get it turned around. Fortunately I had ~80k food banked in my four landlocked TPs.

Have 80@ 15x4 orchards, something I rarely use. My main problem with them is that even these small ones need two farmers each to produce full harvests. With a single farmer they get maybe 60%.

The pop curve is in uncharted territory. I'm not building more housing or accepting more nomads until is settles down into something more regular. Makes it tough to let it run AFK (away from keyboard) but I'm going to do it overnight again tonight anyway.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 18, 2017, 06:55:52 PM
let me guess you ran a dictatorship and stole the food with taxes and traded it for gold? LOL. did your bannies waunder off to join  a church or cemetary and not get back to the fields in time? that is a huge drop off. my orchards with 1 worker at 10x10 produce as much as a normal crop field. ohh wait i have a forget about orchard mod so i don't have to prune them all the time. that may be why you need 2 workers.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 19, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
let me guess you ran a dictatorship and stole the food with taxes and traded it for gold? LOL. did your bannies waunder off to join  a church or cemetary and not get back to the fields in time? that is a huge drop off. my orchards with 1 worker at 10x10 produce as much as a normal crop field. ohh wait i have a forget about orchard mod so i don't have to prune them all the time. that may be why you need 2 workers.
@brads3  I don't know what those guys get up to down there ;)  Yeah, very little in the way of mods in this town.

Year 2464

Woke up to this; now that's looking promising.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 19, 2017, 05:14:35 PM
One of the mods I'm using is Bobbi's Special Doctor House, which supposedly has removed the happiness radius from the Hospitals, but my hospitals still seem to be idiot-magnets. :o >:(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 19, 2017, 05:58:52 PM
did you added Bobbi doctor house before or after you built the hospital ? like for example, the hospital was originally built while not using any mods.... and then later you added the mod ? maybe you need to destroy it and rebuild
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 19, 2017, 11:48:21 PM
did you added Bobbi doctor house before or after you built the hospital ? like for example, the hospital was originally built while not using any mods.... and then later you added the mod ? maybe you need to destroy it and rebuild
The one in the image was built after I enabled the mod. I do have some that are unmodded, but this one is definitely a modded one.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 20, 2017, 12:43:47 AM
very strange then

maybe they are attracted by the doctor himself ^^
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 20, 2017, 08:25:22 AM
very strange then

maybe they are attracted by the doctor himself ^^
That's probably it. He has a magnetic personality. :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 20, 2017, 03:58:16 PM
very strange then

maybe they are attracted by the doctor himself ^^
That's probably it. He has a magnetic personality. :)

yeah probably haha
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 20, 2017, 04:20:12 PM
Year 2523

Just ran 24 hours with only a couple minor tweaks to auto-purchases. No manual trading at all.

Good-looking pop curve. No professionals lost last cycle, but I did lose maybe 50 on the cycle before.

edit: looks a little steep heading down this time, compare the distance between adults and total pop with earlier curves. Also, children and students are noticeably down. Bet this time is a deeper trough = lost professionals.

Items in Storage

Items in TPs

Items in Homes
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 20, 2017, 04:41:49 PM
your population still drops by 35%. more than i would expect. how many houses compared to working adults do you have on the high end? i try to keep 1 house per 2 workers. but i use an aging mod to balance the game different than you. did you setting housing based on number of families?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 20, 2017, 06:13:32 PM
@brads3 There are 666 homes. Looks like there are just over 2000 adults on the high end.

There was no method that went into the number of houses. The sine wave is baked into this town, an artifact from 2400 years ago when I quit building houses in the first place. At the time I had no idea of running the town for two or three more millennia.  ;) I think there is no way to stop it, once it gets started.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 20, 2017, 06:30:50 PM
stop what,the insanity?? LOL looks like you need 300+ more houses.but that would take another 100 years to balance after you built them. at least you have it functioning decent.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 20, 2017, 06:42:01 PM
It's not just a question of building a certain number of houses, but more important is when to build them. If you build them at the wrong time, you are just making things worse. Also, you can't just build them all in one lump, you need to taper in, and taper off. That is beyond what is possible, I think.

Plus, you can't just build housing, you need markets, and food producers. In my next 2500-year town  ;) :D I'll give a lot more thought to when and how to stop building new homes. This is the key, you have to taper off home construction over a period of many years if you hope to have a manageable pop sine wave.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 20, 2017, 06:43:36 PM
And now, at the very bottom, with 666 houses and 481 families, I get 179 nomads. It is soooo tempting.....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 20, 2017, 06:55:38 PM
i agree with some but not all. yes, if you build houses the population will go up in the short run and therefore require food. however,you already have the population you want. die offs due to food shortage would counter with the population growth. it should trade older for younger children.
    my theory is if you had the families you have now split up, you would have more balance.where as now, by the time you have educated workers to replenish,you have no young children since they are still stuck in the same houses.you have 4 adults in a house and therefore can't have children.you basically are losing an entire generation.
        what would be a neat test is to build 150 houses,not increase the food. run it 100 yrs after the last house is built and see how the curve is then. i understand your thinnking of doing it slowly. but that is if the plan is to grow and expand. in your case you aren't trying to increase the population.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 20, 2017, 07:49:32 PM
i am not sure we can get to a number of population and finally get it stable even if i tend to think that the more pop and more stable should be ^^
i think we gone through that question at some point, 3-4 years ago
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 21, 2017, 01:39:22 PM
150 houses is too many, too many for me, anyway. I'll put up a save if you want to try it  ;) There's only stone enough for 46.

I might build 20-30; finding good spots for them isn't easy though.

I have no hope of making a stable pop. I just want to have enough guys so my laborers don't all die in the trough.

See the screenie for mods needed to run this town. Probably only really need Tweaking Crops and Vendor Buildings.

eta: And I see now that Bobbi's Special Doctor House is not enabled. :( :o >:(
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 21, 2017, 05:25:56 PM
Got 32 house foundations built. I'll finish them when the number of families exceeds current number of houses, that will be halfway up the curve.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 22, 2017, 02:26:02 PM
i would test it except i don't wanta mess up my mod order i have.plus you do have some mods that i don't included . i thought you was plain vanilla.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 22, 2017, 03:15:01 PM
First 1000 years or so, it was plain vanilla.  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 22, 2017, 07:23:39 PM
eta: And I see now that Bobbi's Special Doctor House is not enabled. :( :o >:(

thats what i saw !! ^^
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 09:14:26 AM
Year 2536

So I ended up building 50 new stone houses. I had all the foundations ready, then I hired builders in early summer 2535. At that time I had 666 houses and 666 families.

At first I never had more than 20 builders working on them at once, because I didn't want them all to finish at the same time. I wanted to add about 5/month, which was slightly fewer than the number of families I'd been getting. Of course the builders didn't cooperate, completing 6 houses in one month, then two in the next, then two more, then 9, then zero, etc.

Then, after only 4 houses completed in 5 months, I went ahead and released all of them. At that time there were 27 left to build; in 6 months these were all done.

But after 15 months they were all complete. I now have 716 houses and 725 families. We'll see what that does to the pop curve and the labor situation. If the outcome is favorable, I may do this again on the next upswing of the sine wave. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: brads3 on November 23, 2017, 12:16:38 PM
that should tell you something. i am curios to see how the population curve stablizes for a while. that may take a coule waves. my next idea would be what ratio of laborers to population should there be to keep a balance and still allow for disease deaths?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 12:37:47 PM
that should tell you something. i am curios to see how the population curve stablizes for a while. that may take a coule waves. my next idea would be what ratio of laborers to population should there be to keep a balance and still allow for disease deaths?
Not really worried about disease deaths. I have well-sited hospitals, and have lost almost no one to disease in hundreds of years. The chances of a really nasty disease are vanishingly small. If one hits and I lose hundreds of guys, I'd prefer dealing with that, instead of overbuilding against a remote contingency.

What I consider about diseases is the nuisance effect of having scores of workers disabled for months at a time. This is undesirable, so I don't allow it to happen. ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 12:39:11 PM
@RedKetchup speaking of diseases, I enabled Bobbi's special doctor house, saved and restarted. Demolished and rebuilt 8 hospitals. Checked the mod list and it is disabled again. Version 1(1.04B). Just tried enabling again, and it crashed out when I unpaused. It is disabled again. Could it possibly be incompatible with 1.07?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 23, 2017, 12:54:40 PM
@RedKetchup speaking of diseases, I enabled Bobbi's special doctor house, saved and restarted. Demolished and rebuilt 8 hospitals. Checked the mod list and it is disabled again. Version 1(1.04B). Just tried enabling again, and it crashed out when I unpaused. It is disabled again. Could it possibly be incompatible with 1.07?

100% compatible with 1.07

you certainly maybe forget one somewhere on the map.

why not let it ON all the time ?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 01:20:07 PM
Well, originally I had it off because of the achievements.

And then I turned it on (I thought) and rebuilt some of my hospitals.

Then I discovered it actually was disabled, so I enabled it (again, I thought) and rebuilt most of my hospitals.

Now I find it is disabled again.

When I enable, it asks if I want to save and restart. I say yes. When it comes back, I unpause, and the game crashes out. When it starts back up, it is disabled again.

Is it possible that I need to demolish all of my hospitals before I enable? Is having some vanilla hospitals present when I enable causing problems?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Maldrick on November 23, 2017, 02:38:53 PM
@irrelevant Is this my buddy Mango from the reddit?

Think you mentioned this project a while back over there.  Crazy person! :P
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 23, 2017, 03:00:01 PM
yeah destroy all hospital. save on new slot. dont quit. enable mod in the save game, let it reload. and then save again another slot and see how it goes

in the profession window => physician : you can see if you still have an hospital in game.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 04:34:15 PM
@irrelevant Is this my buddy Mango from the reddit?

Think you mentioned this project a while back over there.  Crazy person! :P
@Maldrick It is! Who are you over there? Mortal Smurf?

yeah destroy all hospital. save on new slot. dont quit. enable mod in the save game, let it reload. and then save again another slot and see how it goes

in the profession window => physician : you can see if you still have an hospital in game.
@RedKetchup I'll give it a shot. And hope I don't get smallpoxed while I'm doing it! Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 05:08:55 PM
Done! Took four months. Not bad. Looks like that did it, no idlers seen so far. :)

@RedKetchup Merci, mon ami!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 05:58:26 PM
Ancient industrial ruins discovered on the outskirts of town!!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: RedKetchup on November 23, 2017, 07:47:01 PM
haha nice :) told you :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 08:14:25 PM
@RedKetchup You were right once again! :)

There's not much to do in a forest hamlet, so the villagers congregate at the farm stand to exchange gossip.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Maldrick on November 23, 2017, 10:17:58 PM
@Maldrick It is! Who are you over there? Mortal Smurf?

MaldrickTV :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 23, 2017, 10:48:31 PM
Ah, ok. I remember. You haven't been around r/banished in awhile.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: Maldrick on November 25, 2017, 02:09:18 PM
Ah, ok. I remember. You haven't been around r/banished in awhile.

Yeah I got sidetracked with some other games towards the end of the summer.  Was in the closed test for Ostriv.  In Alpha 1 now and is still very basic but has tons of potential to be a really amazing game.  Also randomly got into 7 Days to Die.  Bit of a departure for me as I avoid zombie games as a rule but the survival aspects and the crafting / building are addicting. In a lot of the same ways as Banished for some reason, I find.

Good to see you here.  Your dedication to your town is inspiring. Not sure I've ever stuck with one past a few weeks.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 26, 2017, 02:00:59 PM
It's fun. Learning a lot with this town.

Year 2546

Changed my ordering strategy. Stopped ordering coats, tools, and iron from the General Goods merchant. That stuff is clogging up his boat when what I really need him to bring is logs. It worked cause before he was bringing 200-1000 logs/boat, and now it's 1000-2000.

Stopped ordering logs from the Resource merchant. He never brought very many at a time in any case. Now he's just bringing coats, tools, and iron.

Buying peaches and pecans from the Food merchant and also from the GG merchant.

Hope to be back to running unattended soon.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 26, 2017, 08:27:50 PM
Year 2554

The pop curve certainly has been changed by the construction of 50 homes in 2536, and of maybe 10-15 homes since then. It will be interesting to see where the new bottom is.

As I need to go to bed, and I'm not going to go unattended into uncharted pop curve territory, we'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what the new pop curve looks like.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 27, 2017, 07:38:57 AM
This particular band of nomads belonged to a sect that considers engineering to be the Devil's mischief.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: kid1293 on November 27, 2017, 09:05:15 AM
 ;D

Thanks!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 27, 2017, 02:02:33 PM
You're welcome! :)

Year 2562

The pop curve looks very promising, the additional housing made a big difference. I think the timing of the construction was an important factor as well. There were still ~330 laborers at the bottom of the curve. Now, is this a two-phase sine wave? Most likely. What will the next trough look like?

I have 51 additional house foundations complete and paused; when shall I build them (if at all)? Obviously, I want to do what I did before; build them on the up curve, just as the number of families exceeds the number of houses. But next cycle, or the one after? Depends what the wave looks like the next time down.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2000 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 27, 2017, 06:11:14 PM
Year 2568

Uh-oh, high peak means deep trough to follow. Maybe I should build those houses on the way down....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 29, 2017, 03:29:11 PM
Year 2602

Let it run while I was at work today. Lost 43 professionals at the bottom of the wave, that's not so bad.

Still not sure when the best time to build the 51 queued-up houses would be. Now I'm thinking just after the next high peak, as the curve starts down towards the next deep trough.

Strategic inventory reserve, stored in landlocked TPs

Shutting down the hunters and gatherers again, they require too much micro to get rid of the mushrooms and leather. That's 62 jobs, should have done that earlier, would have left a small cushion at the bottom of the previous wave.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 30, 2017, 03:33:11 PM
Year 2652

After 24 hours with zero input, I come home to an even deeper trough. Lost 110 professionals (172 more than I lost last time). Got some tweaking up to do with auto-purchases, buying too much iron, too many coats.

Still haven't built those houses.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on November 30, 2017, 07:41:00 PM
Year 2657

Some new stuff. Pop curve is definitely doing something weird. Too bad I'll be asleep when it happens  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: kid1293 on November 30, 2017, 10:45:59 PM
2600 years and it flattens out?

Too good to be true.  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on December 01, 2017, 06:04:33 AM
I made a longer Banished brake but now I feel a little bit tempted to play again. So I took a small look to see what's going on on this page. And what do I see: My old friend @irrelevant active wit one of his oooooooold towns. That's a nice surprise. It's always a peasure to read about your findings. :) But the achievement "tenure" is 200 not 2000 years!!! :D You are crazy!

My explanation to the flat curve: "Random factor": Young women happened to move into empty houses, not old spinsters.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: kid1293 on December 01, 2017, 06:10:33 AM
I do not want be off-topic, but - Glad to see you, Nilla!

(Det har varit tomt.)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: brads3 on December 01, 2017, 07:02:32 AM
WOOOOW. NILLA is that really you???

IRRELEVANT,i don't like my own tests and math. i shake my head at it. it might be possable but not practical to flatten the population graph. your way has worked better with the waves.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on December 01, 2017, 07:11:41 AM
Thanks guys! Yes! It's me. And you've been very busy. I've looked around on this page and I don't know what new mods I want to start to test first. You made some really nice new stuff @kid1293 and so have other modders.

And @brads3, to your population experiments. You've come to the right conclusion. It's impossible to keep a stable population, if you let the game "run by itself". You can do it with a lot of micromanagement, controlling the number of children, who are born each year. But as soon as you leave the town, the sine wave is there.

Sorry @irrelevant for hi jacking this thread.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 01, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
I made a longer Banished brake but now I feel a little bit tempted to play again. So I took a small look to see what's going on on this page. And what do I see: My old friend @irrelevant active wit one of his oooooooold towns. That's a nice surprise. It's always a peasure to read about your findings. :) But the achievement "tenure" is 200 not 2000 years!!! :D You are crazy!

My explanation to the flat curve: "Random factor": Young women happened to move into empty houses, not old spinsters.

@Nilla So good to see you back!

I just can't stay away from this town.

Also, I have noticed that the sine wave may take one of three basic patterns.
1) regular oscillation, repeating essentially the same one curve over and over.
2) irregular, following no discernible pattern
3) a "two-phase" oscillation, where there is a moderate up and down curve, followed by a more severe up and down curve, which repeats over and over. That is what I am in right now. Not exactly sure what causes this, but the cause of the higher peak must somehow be contained in the demographics of the shallower trough that precedes it, and the cause of the shallower peak must somehow be contained in the demographics of the deeper trough that precedes it.

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 01, 2017, 10:56:45 AM
2600 years and it flattens out?

Too good to be true.  ;)

Yes, too good to be true, as it isn't true  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 01, 2017, 10:58:50 AM
WOOOOW. NILLA is that really you???

IRRELEVANT,i don't like my own tests and math. i shake my head at it. it might be possable but not practical to flatten the population graph. your way has worked better with the waves.
@Nilla is right, there is no way to prevent it, except through never-ending micromanagement of the number of children being born.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 01, 2017, 10:59:42 AM
Sorry @irrelevant for hi jacking this thread.
Hijack all you like, I don't mind. :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 01, 2017, 04:53:54 PM
@Nilla The two-phase sine wave.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 02, 2017, 09:19:45 AM
Year 2679

In an effort to jolt this pop curve into regular oscillation, picked up 191 nomads nearing the bottom of the curve.

Also picked up eleven twelve thirteen disease outbreaks (including smallpox, my favorite) in the following two years. Bobbi's Special Doctor House makes dealing with these so much easier.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 03, 2017, 05:59:26 PM
Year 2724

Been running 33 hours with a couple of tweaks to auto-purchases.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 05, 2017, 05:40:38 PM
Year 2775

This was yesterday evening after 57 hours of continuous running, 95% unattended. The only input from me was tweaking purchases of iron, tools, and clothing, and releasing some wool, coats, and tools from the strategic reserve.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on December 05, 2017, 09:53:53 PM
i dont think there is a way to have better curves than this !
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 06, 2017, 03:47:47 PM
Year 2824

Uhhh, no.

@RedKetchup I don't know, it's looking better now. Been over 100 years since my laborers all died off.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 08, 2017, 03:59:27 PM
Year 2897

 :o  ???

Yikes!! Left home for 36 hours, return to a firewood/log/tool/iron/ale crisis. Returned just in time (I hope), early winter with 1140 firewood in general inventory, 8533 in TPs, and 11133 in homes, with annual consumption around 16,000.

Turned off automatic trading, dumping all firewood out of TPs, and moving in wool, wool coats, and herbs for trade. Of course I've had hunters turned off for a century, so there's no leather at all. ::)

This will be fun! 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 08, 2017, 04:01:07 PM
At least the pop curve looks good. :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 08, 2017, 04:30:43 PM
Now I see what caused this. In order to squeak in under the bottom of the pop curve, I had cut down the numbers of vendors at my 33 markets/farm stands some 200 years ago. Every market has just a couple too few vendors, which compounded over a couple of centuries resulted in producers and homeowners having to make longer and longer shopping trips to keep their homes and businesses adequately supplied.

Markets varying from 5% to 50% of capacity. Added 72 vendors (about 30%).

This has never happened to me before, very interesting.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on December 09, 2017, 03:03:35 AM
seems you've got an iron crisis which triggered a tool crisis which triggered a firewood crisis lol
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on December 09, 2017, 04:42:54 PM
Now I see what caused this. In order to squeak in under the bottom of the pop curve, I had cut down the numbers of vendors at my 33 markets/farm stands some 200 years ago. Every market has just a couple too few vendors, which compounded over a couple of centuries resulted in producers and homeowners having to make longer and longer shopping trips to keep their homes and businesses adequately supplied.

Markets varying from 5% to 50% of capacity. Added 72 vendors (about 30%).

This has never happened to me before, very interesting.

Really? Wasnīt it rather like Red says; an iron crisis? You didnīt order enough iron, to produce enough tools, and we all know how bad tool less people work. Of cause, too few vendors set the productivity down but tool less people a lot more.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 09, 2017, 06:09:36 PM
@Nilla I think so; that's the only thing that can explain running out of ale in the TPs. I had 250k peaches in storage, but ale production had fallen to about 10k/year (down from ~21k), and there was only 7000 ale total in the TPs, which should have had 36,000. The brewers were doing something other than brewing with their time.

It reached a point where two things happened: there was so little ale in the TPs that firewood started getting traded away at a much higher rate, and there was no longer enough trade value in the TPs to buy sufficient logs to support the firewood production. I had fruit as the first item in the auto-purchase list, then logs. Ultimately fruit was the only thing getting bought.

Yes, having no tools played a part in that, but I was running out of tools before firewood inventory took its nose dive.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 10, 2017, 06:12:10 AM
Hm. Maybe they were looking for firewood. Maybe everyone was looking for firewood.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 10, 2017, 11:35:46 AM
So two years of manual trading later I've got 38,600 firewood on the map, compared with 21,000 when I discovered the crisis. Going to be a long way back to the 134,000 that I had in happier times. :o

I saw I still had 25 wooden houses, gradually upgrading those to stone during the winter months. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on December 10, 2017, 12:08:00 PM
stone / wood housing : very big difference
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on December 10, 2017, 12:20:50 PM
@Nilla I think so; that's the only thing that can explain running out of ale in the TPs. I had 250k peaches in storage, but ale production had fallen to about 10k/year (down from ~21k), and there was only 7000 ale total in the TPs, which should have had 36,000. The brewers were doing something other than brewing with their time.

It reached a point where two things happened: there was so little ale in the TPs that firewood started getting traded away at a much higher rate, and there was no longer enough trade value in the TPs to buy sufficient logs to support the firewood production. I had fruit as the first item in the auto-purchase list, then logs. Ultimately fruit was the only thing getting bought.

Yes, having no tools played a part in that, but I was running out of tools before firewood inventory took its nose dive.

Of cause it's hard to estimate what initiated the crisis. But you say it yourself; you ran out of tools before you ran out of firewood. So the low firewood production came because of tool less choppers. Was it the same with the brewers? Tool- less brewers will not produce much. Or was it, like you suggest, that you couldn't buy enough iron because the brewers didn't produce enough, because they have to walk too far to get fruit. I guess it will be impossible to figure out, unless you try to reproduce the trouble. Maybe first fix everything to work fine. Then take away vendors and see what happens.

As far as I remember; what's first on the auto purchase list, doesn't matter. If you can't buy everything, it's pretty random what you get.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 10, 2017, 03:42:29 PM
stone / wood housing : very big difference
Indeed, but only 3% of my houses were wood, all the rest stone.

Of cause it's hard to estimate what initiated the crisis. But you say it yourself; you ran out of tools before you ran out of firewood. So the low firewood production came because of tool less choppers. Was it the same with the brewers? Tool- less brewers will not produce much. Or was it, like you suggest, that you couldn't buy enough iron because the brewers didn't produce enough, because they have to walk too far to get fruit. I guess it will be impossible to figure out, unless you try to reproduce the trouble. Maybe first fix everything to work fine. Then take away vendors and see what happens.

We'll see; sounds like more work than I want to do. ;) Most likely it was just one more cascade of compounding failures, probably started by running out of tools as you say.

I wasn't aware that brewers were heavily dependent on tools.

As far as I remember; what's first on the auto purchase list, doesn't matter. If you can't buy everything, it's pretty random what you get.

Supposedly the order in which you have arranged the purchases, is they order in which the purchases are executed. If that isn't the case, I've certainly been wasting a lot of time clicking those stupid little arrows up and down!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on December 10, 2017, 03:48:07 PM
Just saw something very odd. An outbreak of scarlet fever started with a brewer who was on his way to get something to eat. But when I checked where his home was, I saw he was headed in the opposite direction. He walked all the way to the other side of the map and finally stopped at some seemingly random house for his meal. Now he is on his way all the way back to where he was when he became ill (of course spreading disease in his wake) to go to the hospital near his home. He'll probably get well before he gets there.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: brads3 on December 10, 2017, 04:29:16 PM
LOL. i had 1 earluier walk way out in the forest where nothing was. took a leak and walked back to town and went home to eat. weird bannies.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on December 11, 2017, 06:28:01 AM
Quote
Supposedly the order in which you have arranged the purchases, is they order in which the purchases are executed. If that isn't the case, I've certainly been wasting a lot of time clicking those stupid little arrows up and down!

You're right. I'm sorry. I mixed things up. It's the things you sell, that's random. What you get, follows the order list, as far as I remember.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 08, 2018, 07:45:41 PM
Year 2906

Finally! Got inventories back under control and have got auto-purchase going again. Going to let it run overnight. I hope it still remembers how.

When I get to Year 3000 I'm going to quit. I mean it this time!  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on March 08, 2018, 08:23:50 PM
haha 3000 years lol
only you who can do this !!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: brads3 on March 08, 2018, 10:32:51 PM
glad to see you are still around and playing. did you say 5000?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 09, 2018, 03:55:48 PM
glad to see you are still around and playing. did you say 5000?
No, I did NOT!  ;D

Year 2945

Ran 36 years in 19 unattended hours, a bit under 2 years/hour. Pretty bad for 10x. GP is rather painful to run any way other than unattended.   

This last pop cycle featured a high peak and a deep trough that resulted in die-offs of professionals. I don't suppose I'll ever get that problem licked, as close as I am to Y3K.

Showing the losses on the Professions Panel, plus most of the interesting Town Hall panels showing how much fun (NOT) the recovery from the iron/tool/ale/firewood crisis has been.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 09, 2018, 03:59:56 PM
haha 3000 years lol
only you who can do this !!
Bonjour, mon ami!

Not true, though; I see @smurphys7 has his sights set on Y5K. Although he seems to be taking a break (hope nothing bad happened to his town), if anyone can get to 5000, it's him. GP's never going to do it  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 09, 2018, 05:31:20 PM
In case anyone's wondering what I did to recover from running out of logs, firewood, ale, iron, and tools:

First, I FREAKED OUT!

Then I decided what I needed to do was concentrate on building up my inventories of logs, iron, tools, and peaches. Stopped buying anything but these. Maxxed out foresters, even if it meant stripping the forests bare. Put two hunters in every hunting cabin (to get venison and leather for trade). Built a few more woodcutters. It was not easy to find decent spots for them.

The biggest problem (with no firewood and very little ale) was what to put into the TPs to use for trade. Fortunately, I had built four landlocked TPs where I had some goodies stashed away. What I did have was herbs, wool, wool coats, and mushrooms. This (plus mutton, venison, and leather) was basically what I traded on for the 3-4 years that it took to get ale stocks built back up to a decent level. It took maybe ten more years before I could start putting firewood back into the TPs.

Now I'm basically out of wool, and coat inventories are way down, but that's not really a problem.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on March 09, 2018, 07:55:38 PM
ah i thought because the resources merchants didnt show up for a century ^^
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 09, 2018, 08:04:26 PM
ah i thought because the resources merchants didnt show up for a century ^^
Yah, resource merchants are the only ones I buy iron, tools, and coats from, but even I'm not that unlucky  ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 10, 2018, 05:15:06 AM
You are at the top of your population graph which is when you are consuming the most possible goods.  You have built up good stockpiles at this point.  That's a very good sign.  As your population goes down you should still produce about the same but have less consumption.

My game seems to play itself much more effectively when all the UI windows are closed.  The General Statistics Panel, the Town Hall panel, the Event Log and the Jobs window all have noticeable affects on play speed. 
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 11, 2018, 10:11:25 AM
Year 3009

Despite what I said, I'm not going to stop ;) About 15 years ago I finally built the 47 additional houses that I laid the foundations for about 150 years ago. I'm trying to fix the pop curve so it no longer dips low enough that all the laborers die off and professions become unstaffed. This is the one remaining issue that prevents GP from being capable of running unattended for infinite periods. I would like to get there.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: brads3 on March 11, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
to do that,my theory is you need to bring the children count up. that way there is a better ratio between adult workers and children.in a perfect world, you want enough students to replace die offs and no more. do you get diseases frequently that kills a lot of workers? this would make it very difficult.
      running the game so many years,i am suprised you haven't found a better balance. i notice you have trade posts set to maintain supplies well.then seems you have a whoops or die offs that lead to problems. are all the schools becoming full and sending the children to laborers earlier?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 11, 2018, 02:30:03 PM
to do that,my theory is you need to bring the children count up. that way there is a better ratio between adult workers and children.in a perfect world, you want enough students to replace die offs and no more. do you get diseases frequently that kills a lot of workers? this would make it very difficult.
I don't think so, but I don't really know. Most of the time the town is running, I'm either at work or asleep. But hardly anyone has ever died of a disease while I've been watching. Of course I act very aggressively to minimize the impact of any outbreak. Who knows what happens when I'm not around.

      running the game so many years,i am suprised you haven't found a better balance.
Found a better balance of what?

i notice you have trade posts set to maintain supplies well.then seems you have a whoops or die offs that lead to problems. are all the schools becoming full and sending the children to laborers earlier?
There are 30 schools, space for 600 students. I don't believe I ever have more than 450 or so.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 04:25:33 AM
Year 3044

Well, building those extra houses did not help at all, in fact it may have made things worse.

I've thought of something else to try. Next trough, I'm going to shut down a significant portion of available houses. I will recover them gradually over the next 20(?) years until they all are open again. This is intended to simulate the slow, steady construction of homes that I didn't do 3000 years ago. This certainly would do something to the sine wave! I'd appreciate any comments and advice from anyone and everyone regarding this plan.

How many do I shut down? At what rate should I recover them?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 12, 2018, 08:34:04 AM
Here's my understanding:

Goal: Run town indefinitely with no interaction.
Remaining problem: rare sharp population drop offs.

My suggestions: 
1) Pick a housing number and go with it. 

My approach is normally "build as many houses as food production supports".  You may want a different approach due to size.  Changing things "resets" the experiment.  There's no "slow steady construction" of homes if your intent is to not touch anything for 1,000 years.  There's a total number of houses and that's it.

2) Remove inefficiency.

Cutting down inefficiency has two important benefits: 1) better ratio of total population to employed workers and 2) smaller town size allows for faster simulation.

Remove less effective farms, hunters, orchards, pastures, etc.

3) Reduce the total number of jobs.

The less employed workers the better.  I don't think you've encountered the biggest possible drop-off.  I think your total employed worker count should be close to your house count. 

I'd look at reducing Vendors and Traders.  School system doesn't need to be perfect: consider dropping some teachers.  Herbalists, Clerics, Physicians, etc. 

4) Expectations: this stuff is hard.

I think a good analogy is think of your town like a car or a house.  A town with minor occasional human input is like a car with regular maintenance.  A town with no input is like the rover on mars.  You need to design it to survive on its own.  Fortunately, creating the town is nothing like actually sending a rover to Mars.

This isn't rocket science, but it isn't putting air in your tires and changing your oil either.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 12, 2018, 08:45:06 AM
If I understand it right, you will "play active" =be at the computer for a while.

First I think this is somehow a "mission impossible". If you remember, I made several attempts to get a constant population. It also went very well as long as I payed attention. I only looked at the number of children; held them around 15 %, closed and opened houses to keep it that way, also used some boarding houses from time to time.

I held the population constant for many years but as soon as I left the settlement, the sine wave was there again. Even if the population was very well mixed in age, as I left the settlement, the "random factor" struck; distribution of gender, age of the woman as she moves out, accidental deaths..... all these things made the attempts in vane.

I think the only way to succeed is to occupy as few people as possible; to have many free laborers, so that you never run out of professionals. Produce as much of the "necessary stuff" as possible with as few people as needed. Overthink each professional. Maybe even accept some starvation at "peak times".

Edit, I just see, that the real expert has answered, it looks like heīs thoughts are in this direction as well. (I speak of @smurphys7)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 09:04:27 AM
Here's my understanding:

Goal: Run town indefinitely with no interaction.
Remaining problem: rare sharp population drop offs.
I'd say the sharp drop-offs aren't rare, they happen every 40 years, every second sine wave cycle.

My suggestions: 
1) Pick a housing number and go with it. 

My approach is normally "build as many houses as food production supports".  You may want a different approach due to size.  Changing things "resets" the experiment.  There's no "slow steady construction" of homes if your intent is to not touch anything for 1,000 years.  There's a total number of houses and that's it.
Pop size and food production are pretty well balanced and have been for many years.

2) Remove inefficiency.

Cutting down inefficiency has two important benefits: 1) better ratio of total population to employed workers and 2) smaller town size allows for faster simulation.

Remove less effective farms, hunters, orchards, pastures, etc.
I don't really have any inefficient producers any longer. Sometimes I don't get full harvests, but that's because my farms mainly have just one farmer.

3) Reduce the total number of jobs.

The less employed workers the better.  I don't think you've encountered the biggest possible drop-off.  I think your total employed worker count should be close to your house count. 

I'd look at reducing Vendors and Traders.  School system doesn't need to be perfect: consider dropping some teachers.  Herbalists, Clerics, Physicians, etc. 
I might be able to cut some traders. I think the vendors are as low as they can go. They are necessary for efficient ale production, which is centered on markets (currently averaging ~440 ale/brewer/year, which is pretty good). 13 herbalists, 11 physicians, not much pickup possible there. No churches.

Before I do much more cutting, I want to try to flatten out the pop curve. I know I can't make it go away, but I think it can be less severe than it is.

Thanks for replying!

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 09:10:59 AM
If I understand it right, you will "play active" =be at the computer for a while.

First I think this is somehow a "mission impossible". If you remember, I made several attempts to get a constant population. It also went very well as long as I payed attention. I only looked at the number of children; held them around 15 %, closed and opened houses to keep it that way, also used some boarding houses from time to time.
I'm not thinking of getting a constant population, I know this is not possible. All I want to do is flatten out the sine wave so the peaks and troughs are less extreme.

I held the population constant for many years but as soon as I left the settlement, the sine wave was there again. Even if the population was very well mixed in age, as I left the settlement, the "random factor" struck; distribution of gender, age of the woman as she moves out, accidental deaths..... all these things made the attempts in vane.

I think the only way to succeed is to occupy as few people as possible; to have many free laborers, so that you never run out of professionals. Produce as much of the "necessary stuff" as possible with as few people as needed. Overthink each professional. Maybe even accept some starvation at "peak times".
Yeah, I've already been experimenting with the number of professionals for centuries. I've tried it with fewer gathers, with no gatherers, with fewer fishers, with no fishers, with one farmer per orchard, with only two foresters per lodge, with fewer vendors, with fewer traders. Everything brings its own problem. I'm not against tinkering with the number of jobs, but I've already been doing it all along.

I really believe this sine wave is very extreme and can be flattened, and that is what I want to try to do. My population currently ages together and dies together. If I can spread out the ageing and the dying so it takes place more evenly, that should flatten out the curves. For that to happen, the births need to be spread out more evenly. That's what I hope to accomplish by closing a large portion of my housing (right as the births are starting to rise?), and re-opening it over a period of several years. I might need to do this more than one time.

Thanks for your reply, @Nilla!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 12, 2018, 09:50:23 AM
I understand, that you don't want to flatten the curve, I just wanted to say; even if you manage to flatten it a generation or two, these random factors will strike and you will have the same sine wave again. I'll be glad to be proved wrong. But I'm sorry to say, I think it's the way Banished works.

I also meant to really overthink the professions: More "out of the box" and not only something like; a population of x normally needs y herbalists, I have y-2 and can't cut it more. That's not enough. You must ask yourself; do I need any herbalists at all? Do I need any doctors at all? What happens if they all get sick? Do I need any unproductive orchards? Can I relocate my brewers? That kind of thinking.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 10:00:51 AM
@Nilla Good point on the herbalists, I don't really need them. As for doctors, I've had towns with not enough doctors and don't really want to cut here. There are only 11 of them in any case.

I know what happens when they all get sick, everyone goes and stands in the doorway of their home until eventually everyone in the town is sick and no work gets done for a couple of months. ;)

I'll try cutting a gatherer and a fisher from each site. Maybe cut one forester per lodge. Maybe one or two traders per TP. Maybe one vendor per market. This might add up to 100. Overnight I lost ~250 professionals in the most recent trough.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 10:28:51 AM
@Nilla I know this isn't really very much out-of-the-box, as you are urging. I'm not much of an out-of-the-box kind of guy. That's why I gave up on playing with mods, it was too much for me, too many choices. I guess there's a reason I have a boring conventional job.  ;)

I'm more of a find-something-that-works-and-hone-it-until-it's-ready-to-break kind of guy ;D
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 12, 2018, 10:33:17 AM
I think you should drop all of the Fisherman and all of the Foresters outside of the 1 with each Gathering Hut.
 Each Fisherman produces 500? Trade value per year.  Each Forester produces 200?  Trade value per year.

That's inefficient.  Have them do something else, or nothing else.  Trade for Fish and Logs.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 10:36:06 AM
Maybe I'll just quit trading altogether. Then I wouldn't need any traders, brewers, or eventually, blacksmiths. I could fire about half of the vendors.

Toolless farmers, though, one per farm might not cut it.....of course I wouldn't need all those peach orchards.....
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 12, 2018, 10:47:28 AM
You would need to do TONS of tweaking if you dropped trading entirely.  It would be insanely time consuming to balance.

Farming is possible but inconsistent.  Finding out how much you produce in the long-term would be difficult and time consuming.  Clothing production is difficult but possible to manage.  You need to make sure you neither fill up with textiles nor coats.  Firewood is difficult.  Running out of tools drastically cuts down Log and Firewood production.  Producing enough logs for a self-sufficient town is tough.  Each house doesn't strictly need Firewood.

My major concern is your House to Minimum Adults ratio.  I believe, but I am not certain, that a larger town allows a better ratio.  Your town is drastically larger than any of my towns.  For my smaller towns, the maximum number of jobs (or minimum number of adults) is somewhere below the number of houses.  For my very small towns, in the 30-50 houses range, the total number of jobs could only be 40% of the number of houses.  So a town of 30 homes allowed 12 jobs.  A 50 home town allowed 20 jobs.  My town of 70 homes, so far, has seen a minimum number of 59 adults. 

Right now you are at something like 750 Homes and 1000+ Jobs.  It's possible that this could work.  Personally, I would be shooting for an even number of jobs and homes.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: brads3 on March 12, 2018, 12:13:00 PM
i am curious to hear IRRELEVANT's take on that. i usuually figure 2 workers per house and 10% to laborers.so at 750 houses,1500 workers with 150 laborers. different way of playing. to me you are talking 500-750 extra laborers that need to be fed. what is your plan to feed all those workers or keep them busy?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 12, 2018, 01:17:28 PM
@Nilla I know this isn't really very much out-of-the-box, as you are urging. I'm not much of an out-of-the-box kind of guy. That's why I gave up on playing with mods, it was too much for me, too many choices. I guess there's a reason I have a boring conventional job.  ;)

I'm more of a find-something-that-works-and-hone-it-until-it's-ready-to-break kind of guy ;D

 :D    Guess, why I told you this "out of the box" stuff? ;)

Quote
Right now you are at something like 750 Homes and 1000+ Jobs.  It's possible that this could work.  Personally, I would be shooting for an even number of jobs and homes.

My guess is that a larger settlement is less vulnerable than a small. These extreme high and low population depends on different random "events". In a large settlement there are much more of every thing; childbirths, uneven gender, deaths,,,,,,,, good and bad things are more likely to take eachother out.

Do each of you have any numbers like average ration max/min? That would be interesting to compare. If I look briefly on the graphs you've published, the first settlement from @smurphys7 had a variation between 25 and 150, a ration of 6, the second  50/250 a ratio of 5, @irrelevantīs 700/2800 a ratio of 4. I guess this means, that you can have a little bit more professions compared to homes in a larger settlement.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 12, 2018, 01:44:15 PM
We have insufficient data.  Collecting the data is difficult for multiple reasons.  I intended to make a post asking modders if we could get better data.  I guess this is as good a time as any.

Do we know how the 100 Year population graphs are created?  Do we have access to the data behind it?  Do we have access to any variables the game tracks that go into it?  Can we make a 200, 500, or 1,000 year graph?  How about the production tab, etc?  Can we make the production tab do 1,000 years?

Then it's a question of "what do you want your town to survive?"  The lowest population point in 100 years, the lowest population point in 500 years, or the lowest population point in 5,000 years?

The "fluke years" (https://i.imgur.com/HusVXdP.png) are not regular events.  Some are worse than others.  What level of robustness constitutes an "infinite town"?  Surviving a 100, 500 or 5,000 year fluke year?  Does surviving the regular bottoms count?  Does surviving a "hey that was pretty bad and rare" one count?  Or does surviving a "what the... how is that even possible" fluke year constitute an infinite town.

The methods irrelevant and I use both aren't ideal for collecting data.  It will take irrelevant 3 months of continuous 24 hours a day simulation to go through 1,000 years.  I don't watch my simulation.  Hundreds of years go by and I never see the graph.  I only know "pass/fail".  I may have a picture of years 200-300 and years 900-1000 but I have no idea what happened from 300-900.  I only know if my town died or not.

I do know that I am getting different required ratios in my towns.  I suspect either town side and/or imperfect education are major factors.  Could be both or neither.

My intention is to make a town that can survive the most insane, 1 in 5,000 year, fluke years.  I have not confirmed, but I believe I have done that with trading and with starvation.  I have yet to do that with no trading, no starvation.  I am currently simulating that when I can.  I am 1,000 years in and this picture of a fluke "year" (https://i.imgur.com/HusVXdP.png) (same as above) is the worst I have had so far.  I was watching when it happened.  My town reached 59 adults.  My town employs 50 citizens.  That means at the lowest point my town had 9 Laborers.  I don't know if I encountered worse fluke years between years 300 and 700.  I don't have the data.  I only know that I did NOT encounter a fluke year that went below 50 adults.  I don't know if that is the worst fluke year possible.  I will find out with more simulation.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 03:52:30 PM
i am curious to hear IRRELEVANT's take on that. i usuually figure 2 workers per house and 10% to laborers.so at 750 houses,1500 workers with 150 laborers. different way of playing. to me you are talking 500-750 extra laborers that need to be fed. what is your plan to feed all those workers or keep them busy?
I have 783 homes, and at the moment there are 1124 jobs and 498 laborers. I don't begrudge the laborers their food, they keep the producers producing by storing their production. Food has not been a problem for centuries.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 03:56:22 PM
I think you should drop all of the Fisherman and all of the Foresters outside of the 1 with each Gathering Hut.
 Each Fisherman produces 500? Trade value per year.  Each Forester produces 200?  Trade value per year.

That's inefficient.  Have them do something else, or nothing else.  Trade for Fish and Logs.
There is a limit to how much food you can buy. Auto-trading is not really a very good method of supplying food, due to the 9999 limit per food type. Twelve TPs (plus 63@15x4 peach orchards) can barely keep the 47 breweries running.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 12, 2018, 04:09:54 PM

My major concern is your House to Minimum Adults ratio.  I believe, but I am not certain, that a larger town allows a better ratio.  Your town is drastically larger than any of my towns.  For my smaller towns, the maximum number of jobs (or minimum number of adults) is somewhere below the number of houses.  For my very small towns, in the 30-50 houses range, the total number of jobs could only be 40% of the number of houses.  So a town of 30 homes allowed 12 jobs.  A 50 home town allowed 20 jobs.  My town of 70 homes, so far, has seen a minimum number of 59 adults. 

Right now you are at something like 750 Homes and 1000+ Jobs.  It's possible that this could work.  Personally, I would be shooting for an even number of jobs and homes.
A larger town definitely allows for a higher ratio. For example, Sink Mill at pop 5140 had 1466 homes, with 2750 jobs and 965 laborers. Rickettstown at pop 4000 had 1163 homes, with 2007 workers and 623 laborers. In year 1242, Gopher Prairie had 558 homes, with 877 jobs and 942 laborers (or 0 laborers, depending on where you were on the sine wave).
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 13, 2018, 06:56:02 PM
It will take irrelevant 3 months of continuous 24 hours a day simulation to go through 1,000 years.
Math's off somewhere. I can do two years/hour. That's 500 hours for 1000 years. 500 hours is 3 weeks, not 3 months.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 13, 2018, 07:24:26 PM
Year 3001

Now, this is interesting. The pop sine wave has started flattening out, apparently all on its own. Or is it?

Not being a believer in happy accidents, I looked for a possible cause, and I think there may be one.

I shut down all the herbalists, thanks to @Nilla's challenging me to think outside the box. As a result, I lost half a heart. As a result, my guys on average aren't living as long. As a result, the houses are opening up faster for new families to form on the down slope of the pop curve.

I haven't lost a professional in 70 years (knock on wood).

Maybe I'll switch all my wheat fields to beans, and see what that does.  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Discrepancy on March 13, 2018, 08:13:05 PM
We have insufficient data.  Collecting the data is difficult for multiple reasons.  I intended to make a post asking modders if we could get better data.  I guess this is as good a time as any.

Do we know how the 100 Year population graphs are created?  Do we have access to the data behind it?  Do we have access to any variables the game tracks that go into it?  Can we make a 200, 500, or 1,000 year graph?  How about the production tab, etc?  Can we make the production tab do 1,000 years?

I do not believe we have the ability to do this. I just checked and tried adjusting a few things but it appears all of these parts of the code are hidden.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 14, 2018, 02:05:39 AM
Do you really mean, that they live shorter, if the health is poor? I haven't seen that. If you remember long ago, I played a game with only protein as food. I couldn't see anything significant and I know, I had people with 80 and more. But I think small differences are hard to see in such a game but would show here, long term.

Opposite to you, I believe in coincidences and random factors working together and against eachother! ;)

So, please give them only beans! My guess is, that it doesn't matter; that your highs will get back real high and your lows real low. But again, I hope that you can prove me wrong!
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 14, 2018, 07:16:46 AM
I don't believe Health affects lifespan.  I did some attempts with Herbalist on and 4.5 Hearts and Herbalist off with 1.5 Hearts.  I saw no differences. 

My tests weren't scientific.  If there was an effect it wasn't very noticable.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 05:35:58 PM
Year 3137

Still have got the two-phase sine wave, but it still is less extreme. Just had my first die-off of professionals in 100 years, lost 35. Very moderate compared with the past, oh I don't know, 300-500 years.

I'm still believing that health has an effect. If it shortens life, it wouldn't have to be by much, even a couple of years would make a difference in a town this size I think.

Or it might be something else that health effects. If it reduced the chance of getting a baby even slightly, that could explain this as well.

Getting ready to switch the wheat farms over to beans. That will free me up some farmers (21 as it turned out), as many of my wheat fields have 2 farmers, but almost none of the bean fields do. 

Trying something else new, up til now I have had basically the same stock in trade at every TP, 3500 firewood, 3500 ale, 2000 mushroom, and 500 leather. I'm going to make some specialized TPs. Two will have 9990 mushrooms, 2000 firewood, 1000 ale, and 800 leather. One has 2000 leather, 2000 firewood, and 1000 ale. Trying to work out a way to unload the mushrooms and leather without resorting to manual trading every time I sit at the game. That stuff just never gets used and it piles up.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 14, 2018, 05:38:37 PM
Getting there!  Good work.

Is it possible to increase the size of any of your chards?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 05:52:22 PM
Getting there!  Good work.

Is it possible to increase the size of any of your chards?
No, can't really change the size of anything, it is all pretty much locked in. Plus, in vanilla, 15x4 is the optimal use of size for yield.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 05:58:34 PM
Got 70,000 wheat in storage and 30,000 in homes. It will take some time to get rid of all that.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: smurphys7 on March 14, 2018, 06:03:08 PM
I think you are at the point where you care more about per worker than per land square.  15x7 and 15x10 are both do-able orchard sizes by a single worker in vanilla.  But you are also limited by what you already have laid out.  Changing things would take forever and may not be possible.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 06:22:29 PM
I think you are at the point where you care more about per worker than per land square.  15x7 and 15x10 are both do-able orchard sizes by a single worker in vanilla.  But you are also limited by what you already have laid out.  Changing things would take forever and may not be possible.
I've never had much luck with orchards. I'm growing peaches because I need them for the breweries. But even with 15x4 I find that yields suffer tremendously when I cut from two farmers to one.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 06:25:14 PM
Damn! Even with 1000 ale, 1000 firewood, 500 leather and 8500 mushrooms in the TP, it trades away everything else to the General Goods merchant and leaves all the mushrooms behind. :o >:( :(

Going down to 500 ale and 400 leather.

Same thing with the leather. 2000 leather, 1000 ale, 1000 firewood, trades away the ale and the firewood, leaves the leather untouched.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 06:42:24 PM
I just noticed, ten years or so prior to the previous high peak and low trough where I lost 35 professionals, health spiked back to 5 hearts for a few years. I had full health due to complete diet without herbs. I'm just too good  ;)

Getting rid of wheat will fix that.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 06:54:17 PM
It took some of the mushrooms, but only because it took everything else first.

I hate to have nothing but mushrooms in the TP because the Resource merchants won't take them, but it looks like I have no choice.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 07:07:18 PM
Well, that's better, anyway.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on March 14, 2018, 07:09:38 PM
Damn! Even with 1000 ale, 1000 firewood, 500 leather and 8500 mushrooms in the TP, it trades away everything else to the General Goods merchant and leaves all the mushrooms behind. :o >:( :(

Going down to 500 ale and 400 leather.

Same thing with the leather. 2000 leather, 1000 ale, 1000 firewood, trades away the ale and the firewood, leaves the leather untouched.

you cannot put those food ontop of exchange list ?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 07:14:45 PM
you cannot put those food ontop of exchange list ?
There is no way to prioritize what you sell, only what you purchase. A serious shortcoming for auto-trading.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 14, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
There we go! :)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: RedKetchup on March 14, 2018, 10:08:08 PM
you cannot put those food ontop of exchange list ?
There is no way to prioritize what you sell, only what you purchase. A serious shortcoming for auto-trading.


oh ok
so what he takes first ? things with the highest value first ?
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 02:23:36 AM
I just saw another thing, that might save you a few professionals; you have very small pastures. This is another "out of the box" thinking. @smurphys7 is right. Normally when we build a larger efficient settlement, we care about using the land in the best way. Normally using a worker more or less isn't critical, at this point you normally have much more laborers than you need. I would rebuild the pastures and try to make them bigger. At least I don't think, that the wool/meat production will suffer.

Maybe you could also sell some mutton and be able to close some brewers to be able to cut some orchards. You are right; orchards are a pain. Most of the time some trees are dead or too small to give fruit. The harvest also starts too late for one farmer to manage the full harvest many years. I would try to cut the number of breweries to only use the fruit you can buy.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 04:10:12 AM
Thought of one more "out of the box" thing to test.

Have you tried not to sell any mushrooms? Do they really overfill the barns?

My experience is, that they do at the beginning and mid of a game, but as the settlement grows the vendors manage to distribute them to the markets. The traders are also very busy running around finding 3 mushrooms here and 5 there. You need a lot of traders to sell mushrooms combined with ale. Because if the traders don't empty the brewery fast enough, the people will drink too much or the production will get down, because the ale isn't transported to the port fast enough.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 15, 2018, 05:42:18 AM
oh ok
so what he takes first ? things with the highest value first ?
It's inconsistent. Often it seems to be the item with this highest total TV, but you can see in my first two examples, mushrooms and leather had the highest TV and were ignored
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 15, 2018, 05:45:41 AM
Thought of one more "out of the box" thing to test.

Have you tried not to sell any mushrooms? Do they really overfill the barns?

My experience is, that they do at the beginning and mid of a game, but as the settlement grows the vendors manage to distribute them to the markets. The traders are also very busy running around finding 3 mushrooms here and 5 there. You need a lot of traders to sell mushrooms combined with ale. Because if the traders don't empty the brewery fast enough, the people will drink too much or the production will get down, because the ale isn't transported to the port fast enough.
@Nilla, believe it or not, I have all kinds of problems with my barns filling up, to the point where it starts to interfere with farm harvesting. Probably the simplest solution would be to turn the gatherers off altogether, but I have experimented with that several times and it always results in my food inventory trending down. This wouldn't be such a big deal if not for the fact that I want to run unattended for many years at a time; trends in either direction are undesirable.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Tom Sawyer on March 15, 2018, 06:30:30 AM
As far as I know, it's completely random what the game picks from the inventory for auto trading.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 15, 2018, 11:38:50 AM
I certainly do believe that your barns are over full when the population is low. There's still more or less the same production independent on the population. And maybe it's not such a big problem if the production gets down these years. If your barns are full, you don't need more food, anyway.

I guess that this stored food is used in population highs later. Of cause, a barn full of mushrooms leave less space for other less spacial food. This is a + for selling mushrooms. But your problem is now to reduce your professionals. As i said; selling mushrooms and ale together bring other problems. I guess, that you can save traders, brewers and fruit farmers, if you don't sell any mushrooms. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the problems not to sell them will be bigger than the advantages. Sorry for being such a pain in the a**, but in your place, I would at least want to know for sure.  :-[ ;)

Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 15, 2018, 07:05:24 PM
@Nilla the traders are working okay now, gathering and trading away mushrooms and leather. I have one TP dedicated to each, with 20 traders each. I can afford that.

I certainly didn't expect that cutting out wheat would have this dramatic effect on health! Noticed a couple of things. Diseases are hitting me more often now, 2-3 times/year, which is unusual. Also I have noticed many women dying in childbirth, but this could be just a fluke, or just cause I'm watching more closely. Or just possibly because that's what poor health does.

In any case, the pop curve has changed significantly from before I fired all the herbalists. The lack of hearts offends me, but the town seems to be functioning better. Fewer laborers than I'm used to,    bumped up purchases of logs slightly. ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: Nilla on March 16, 2018, 10:34:45 AM
Sounds like a clever way to solve the problem. At least as long as you can spare the 2*20 traders. (maybe it could also work decent with less)

As far as I know, deceases do hit more often, if the health is bad. Childbirth deaths; I don't know, and also never heard, that it should depend on the health. I know, @Tom Sawyer has played with the deceases and made it even more likely, to get them with a poor health in some of his mods. Maybe he (or some other modder) knows about the childbirth deaths.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 18, 2018, 05:21:52 PM
Year 3237

I'll knock on wood as I say it looks like the two-phase problem is just about gone. This really is the last thing standing between me and just letting it run forever.

I did two things that may have helped. One, I started growing moderate amounts of wheat. Now mostly have four hearts (still have the herbalists turned off), this seems to be better than five, certainly better than two, the multiple disease outbreaks/year were unnerving, just a matter of time until it's smallpox or plague.

Two, a couple of times I went through and one at a time closed down and then re-opened each school, through all thirty schools twice each time. I think I had a real problem with students who married, then moved far away from home and therefore had long student careers. This would have a demographic effect. As soon as I did this I stopped getting the extreme peak/valley combo; it's been more than 100 years since all my laborers died. Let's see if it sticks.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 22, 2018, 04:52:12 PM
Year 3375

Running over 100 hours continuously since the last bit of management, and in that time the only click of intervention was about 60 years ago, near the bottom of the previous low. You can see the jump in the yellow curve.

I could see that the curve was headed to a bottom that would kill off all the laborers, so I took in a handy band of nomads.

The pop curve has been amazingly regular since then.

No longer getting 2 years/hour, lately it's been a bit less than 1.5/hour
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 2500 years
Post by: irrelevant on March 26, 2018, 05:59:14 PM
Year 3524

149 more years, 97 more hours, zero stops, zero intervention.

250 hours and 285 years of continuous running.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: irrelevant on July 03, 2018, 07:45:07 PM
Year 3535

I have to admit, @smurphys7 getting to year 5000 really took the wind out of my sails. My goal for some time has been to get to 5000, which I thought was a goal no one else was ever likely to reach. But I've recovered. Mostly.  ;)

My goal now is still 5000 (or maybe more, if my plan works), which would take forever, unless I can moderate the sine wave to the point where I no longer need to rebalance workers and laborers every 50 years or so. I'm going to try to flatten the wave to the point that I never lose all my laborers.

To do that, my plan is to shut down my extra houses, and to release them back into circulation in a very stingy way, so the pop curve climbs in a more shallow manner. I hope this will result in a flatter sine wave. We'll see.

Image 1 - I have started this program at the bottom of the wave. You can see that I have 783 houses and 600 families. I went through and closed down every house that was empty (not many of these) plus every house that had a single male. I could have selected every house with a single female just as easily. I figured this was a reasonable proxy for unnecessary houses.

Image 2 - And when I finished this, I had 615 houses. Good enough. Look at all the homeless guys.

Image 3 - By the time all the homeless folk had settled in, I was down to 611 homes and 594 families. This is my starting point. From here I'll run attended until all the houses are open again, but my plan is to let the number of families fall behind the number of houses. I expect the result to be a flatter pop curve.     
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: Nilla on July 04, 2018, 01:01:39 AM
I expect the result to be a flatter pop curve.     

................forget it! ;) It will work for one, maybe two or at the most three waves and then be back to "normal" again.  :'(

But please prove me wrong! I'm happy to see you back here again @irrelevant and that you haven't given this game up. It's always a pleasure to see what you'll try as next. (But if it doesn't work, you can always go back to my old suggestion with the mushrooms and save a bunch of traders) ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: irrelevant on July 04, 2018, 06:15:23 AM
@Nilla I knew that's what you would tell me.  :) But I have to try it, otherwise it will make me crazy. I've been thinking about it for months.
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: irrelevant on July 08, 2018, 12:25:35 PM
It didn't do a damned thing. Pop curve completely unchanged.  ::)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: Nilla on July 10, 2018, 03:02:19 AM
Should I be surprised?  ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: irrelevant on July 10, 2018, 07:39:12 AM
You, surprised? Never.  ;)

But now I'm thinking I just did it at the wrong point of the pop curve. :D

So I'm going to try again. What have I got better to do? ;)
Title: Re: irrelevant: Gopher Prairie: extreme tenure, 3500 years
Post by: brads3 on July 10, 2018, 08:30:59 AM
you should know better than to say that to a woman. they all have lists miles long of sstuff for us to do.LOL