Author Topic: Nordic Landscape  (Read 81064 times)

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Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2016, 02:21:58 AM »
What a beautiful house! And some birches around like in banished. Very nice. The dormer and the winter garden is new. Everything else from the outside is original I think. And in each photo from sweden i see this white seating area arranged next to the house. I think every swedish family has exactly this type of decorative items.^^

The barns are interesting. Looks like a stable as you said. In my region there are old "stablebarns" like that but not in red of course.

Now i understand the value of 400 and I think thats a good balance. It's profitable but not much. It's just firewood and not a high value product.

1800 per year for steel tools is really high. It is difficult to realize this product because the coal and mining is hard. But i think about it and maybe it should be reduced. The wool is increased to 10 like leather because it have the same function and use value. So the tailor makes a wool or leather (10) to a coat (15) = 50% or 5 per coat. ~ 750 per year. I think steel tools should get a value per year of round about 1000 to be the best but not overpowered. Thats a price of 18 instead of 24 and exactly 50% profit to the rawmaterials.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2016, 12:21:02 PM »
What a beautiful house! And some birches around like in banished. Very nice. The dormer and the winter garden is new. Everything else from the outside is original I think. And in each photo from sweden i see this white seating area arranged next to the house. I think every swedish family has exactly this type of decorative items.^^


Thank you. You're right about the dormer and the winter garden (they are actually our "sins") but there are many more changes from the original, only some could be seen from this side of the house. But you can see the windows; they are not original, nor is the "patio" and the back door leading to it. There are also a porch at the front door, a balcony, a bath room extension, not to be seen. It is like most of the old Swedish houses; they have been modernized continuously. You rarely find an old original house, unless you go to a museum village. Somehow it's a pity, but on the other hand, you don't have to be sorry, if you want a modern winter garden. You don't spoil anything, you're just continue the tradition. ;)

And yes you're right, these garden furniture are very common. They are cheap, wheather resistant and comfortable.

Now to the game.

I didn't realize that the value of wool was changed to 10. This make sheep pastures very profitable. Maybe too profitable. I like the idea that raw material is expensive, that you lose much of the profit from processing it, if you order it from the merchants. That makes the game more interesting. I also like the idea that the profit is higher, if you produce complicated products. Steel tools should give more profit than iron tools and iron tools more profits than iron, if you see what I mean. The same with clothing; warm coats should give more profit than simple clothing.

There is only one small difference between tools and clothing: The blacksmith produces about the same amount of steel or iron tools each year, but a tailor produces almost the double amount of wool/leather clothing than warm clothes. This makes the warm coats quite uninteresting to sell, compared to wool clothes, even if the profit of each coat is bigger. I have a suggestion; maybe you should change the value of wool back to 5 and change the value of wool coats to 10. Than the profit of each wool coat is the same as a hide coat and the profit of warm coats will increase. The only disadvantage I can see, is that if someone will buy clothes (I don't think anyone normally does) wool coats with the same value for the population is cheaper. But I don't think itīs is a big problem.

The profit of steel tools is high. It might be good to get it down a bit. But as I said; I like that the yearly profit for steel tools is higher than for iron tools.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2016, 02:43:24 PM »
Yes, you just continues the tradition. And history is going on. In 100 years your winter garden will be traditional, original and historically significant.^^

I am working on original old swedish houses without such sins and I hope it will be eventually done.

About the clothes I'm thinking. Warm clothes are a high valuable product as well and people from the north should be experts of warm clothing. Are you sure about the production? I thought the tailor makes the same amount of warm clothing and only needs more material.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2016, 04:33:00 AM »

About the clothes I'm thinking. Warm clothes are a high valuable product as well and people from the north should be experts of warm clothing. Are you sure about the production? I thought the tailor makes the same amount of warm clothing and only needs more material.

Yes, I'm sure. At least itīs that way in my games. Here it's about double as many wool coats than warm coats. I'm not sure, if the difference is that big always. I have very much wool and less leather (650-85 at present). There is enough leather, but I'm a little stingy when it comes to vendors at present (mining takes a lot of manpower) so the tailor who makes warm coats might have to walk a bit to get leather. But I've seen this before. The production of wool/leather coats is always much higher than warm coats. I have just acquired some cows to improve the situation.

I will attach a picture with the actual production numbers.

I played a bit yesterday. It runs good. I had to build a second trading port, not because I want to buy more stuff. I produce too much things, I want to sell and the first port was almost full. You may see, that I'm playing a little bit with orchards and gaining logs from them. I've tried some new seeds. Apples give way more fruit than the walnut trees, they start to grow earlier. I also tried squash, that's the most frost resistant crop. But I have given it up. Even if it can be harvested longer than beans, it grows too slow and gives less than the fast growing beans. So I suppose it will be beans and apples in the future.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2016, 06:42:55 AM »
You rule the nordic climate. But you are an experienced player and you know what to do. Maybe you come in trouble with food and health when the population is growing. And maybe the difficulty level should be a bit harder.

Squash is the best crop for cold climate in the vanilla game. Not in the mod. I did not know what is squash. I played it sometimes with a friend.^^ I found out, it's a kind of pumpkin and not really frost resistant. Apple is one of the good fruits, yes and there is another tree. I saw plantages of them in southern Norway.

To the clothing. I believe you. But I don't understand it. The work time is defined in the tailor template and it's not bound to the product. Maybe the tailor needs more time to get the raw materials for warm clothes and could be optimized by short distances... I will make a test too.

Merchants come round about 2 times in a year and 3 times if you are an active trader (dismiss...). It seems to work and you don't have to pave the river bank. Thats good for the environment.^^
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 03:16:38 PM by Tom Sawyer »

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2016, 04:45:13 AM »
I went on with the game yesterday. The settlement has passed 500 inhabitants. Still prosperous, well fed, healthy and quite happy.

I rely much on my shepherds. My main export product is mutton. There's much more than I need. There's also too much venison, wool, and wool clothes.

Clothes production: I have increased the stores of leather. As I thought, it increased the productivity of the warm coats. It's still less than wool coats but not 100% anymore, rather 50% less.

Playing with this mod is harder than a vanilla game. You can't rely on the two main sources of supply from a normal game; farming and trade with high profitable products (wood, ale). But it's still good manageable. If you want to make it harder (I would appreciate that, there are not many (if any at all) mods out there that make that) I suggest you cut the prize of meat to 2, the wool to 5 and the wool coats to 10. The nuts could stay at a prize of 3. They are hard to produce and anyone who tries should be rewarded. As it is now the pastures with sheep (and cattle) are the most profitable construction.

To my taste the merchants arrive too often. But you are right, you certainly don't need many ports and that's good. I just built my 4th. I built it because the other were too full. I couldn't even buy 300 stones.  :-\  But how often the merchants arrive isn't really important, it has no big influence on how difficult the game is, so if you like it this way, it's OK. I have developed a strategy that works fine for me. If I don't need anything I don't care about the merchant, he will go away eventually and if I need something, there's often a merchant or two at a port. The trade is quite relaxed this way.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 05:23:22 AM »
Just a small review;

I wanted to play until I had 1000 inhabitants before i went to bed yesterday, but was too busy developing new areas, that I missed it. Anyhow everything runs smooth. I took some nomads to speed things up. First I didn't want to. With these smaller profits, uneducated workers will spoil a lot, if they turn up as woodcutters, foresters, tailors, blacksmiths..... but I realized, that a few uneducated doesn't really matter. The settlement is stable enough to endure some nomads.

The map is soon full, but I think I can make 2000 inhabitants. At least I will go for it.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 04:03:55 PM »
Hei Nilla!

Developing new areas is much more important than going to bed.^^ Thank you for your testing and good information about balancing. My knowledge of your game in summary: It is too easy on harsh. It's the most difficult level and should be a better challenge. You found the way by specializing in meat production. Thats a point. Crops and fruits are nerfed by the dependence on climate. Life Stock is not dependend in the game and so you can go for enough food. The only problem is the health but not really. We need to change the meat, especially the overpowered sheep. The realistic way would be to increase the required area. Shorter summer / growing season means more area per animal. I think the 4x4 per sheep is right and a lower density would not look good. But sheep should bred for wool primary and for meat subordinated. 100 mutton could be a better balance in relation to the 200 beef. For the cattle the idea of ​​a increased area is not bad i think. Maybe increased to a 5x5. What do you mean?

To change the trade value ​​of meat/mutton is a good idea. A similar idea I have is to increase grain to 2. So the import will be more difficult. All types of food are coming from far away should be more expensive. Peaches and pepper for example.

Omg. We make so many nerfs. But people love buffs and hate nerfs.^^ No matter. We want to make it realistic and hard and you are right. There are not many mods do that. I like 1:1 agening for example.

I think with a pure "wood strategy" you would need the merchants to get the food. If you had to build the 4 trading posts because the others were full, you need storage space. More or maybe better barns? Or a material to storage the trade value.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 02:54:15 AM »
The realistic way would be to increase the required area. Shorter summer / growing season means more area per animal. I think the 4x4 per sheep is right and a lower density would not look good. But sheep should bred for wool primary and for meat subordinated. 100 mutton could be a better balance in relation to the 200 beef. For the cattle the idea of ​​a increased area is not bad i think. Maybe increased to a 5x5. What do you mean?

You're a clever man! Excellent idea. I can't say if your suggested numbers are reasonable, not without testing. Anyhow, I would like if the importance/profit of all animals were about the same, also the not very profitable chicken. Maybe if you leave the chicken as they are (or maybe even increase the prize of eggs) together with making the other animals less productive/ less profitable.

To change the trade value ​​of meat/mutton is a good idea. A similar idea I have is to increase grain to 2. So the import will be more difficult. All types of food are coming from far away should be more expensive. Peaches and pepper for example.

I'm not sure about the grain. I don't even think it's realistic. Grain (not wheat and corn but ray and barley) was always the basic in Nordic food (unless you go to real arctic regions and their main food was rein deer, fish or seals). So the idea of expensive grain is a bit wrong to me.

I have another idea that would make the trade a little bit more interesting and harder. What is if the prize of food you order, is much higher than food the merchant bring without ordering:
That would also have some realistic sense. If you really need something you must pay more, also for cheap products.
Suggestion: (Not ordered food/ordered food).
Vegetables, grain, fish 1/2
Fruit, meat 2/3
Eggs, nuts, "exclusive products" 3/5 (no practical importance, I don't think anyone will order this)

If you make the "exclusive products" like peaches and peppar more expensive or not, has no big importance to the gameplay it's more a "feel right" thing.

I don't know if it's possible to program different % increase of the ordered prize on different products. But maybe you can round the figures up instead of down.

Omg. We make so many nerfs. But people love buffs and hate nerfs.^^ No matter. We want to make it realistic and hard and you are right. There are not many mods do that. I like 1:1 agening for example.

I have noticed that too. But we are a couple of geeks, who really want a challenge. So I hope you will go on, even if the users are few. Besides it's a good idea to realease the nice colored houses as a separate mod for those who are more into design than problem solving.

If you had to build the 4 trading posts because the others were full, you need storage space. More or maybe better barns? Or a material to storage the trade value.

Yes it might be a good idea to add a storage building where you can carry the things you want to sell later (or for another reason store on a special location). @RedKetchup has made one of those and there is also one in the CC mod. Yours of cause has to look like a Swedish barn but with the same/similar function.  ;)

I will play more later. I hope I can reach the 2000 inhabitants tonight, wonīt go to bed before I got it.  ;)




Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 04:38:15 AM »
You are a sophisticated woman. The numbers were only from the feeling and I just like round numbers. But if you want a derivation, here it is ... The summer in the North is shortened about 2 months. Thats about 25% shorter. The required area of ​​a cattle is 20 tiles. To increase it to a 5x5 also means 25%. :)

To the grain. Ok, but we only have this wheat and corn. ^^ Perhaps we make later times rye and barley. Nordic people love beer and beer is made from barley and malt and hops. Oh, we have a lot to do.

And I realize you don't like my reindeer. It would only be for the polar region. Actually you're right. Maybe I have to make a polar mod. That would be the impossible mode. ;D

Your idea to trade prices are very good. At first glance, unfortunately I find no way to define a different price range.

Exclusive Products is well said. I want exclusive products from the south. Peaches and pepper (also corn) should be more expensive. The right feeling is also important.

For the storage problem, only we need to increase the capacity of the barns. But you will get a Swedish barn. I am working on it.

Let's see if you can reach the 2k.

Offline tanypredator

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 07:29:09 AM »
To the grain. Ok, but we only have this wheat and corn. ^^ Perhaps we make later times rye and barley. Nordic people love beer and beer is made from barley and malt and hops. Oh, we have a lot to do.

If you want, you may use my oats mod or only oats model, the source is uploaded together with mod. For the fields it probably shoud be colored more golden. I'm going to make wild rye or barley (or both) too, but not soon.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 08:46:00 AM »
Hi Tany, I noticed your Wildoats. A nice idea and I think it's good that you want to make it realistic with temperature etc.. Thank you for your offer. I keep it in mind.

Hm, I think about barley. Actually, I don't want fields with grain in the north. But I want to brew proper beer. In my country there are huge fields of barley, but we don't eat it. We make masses of beer.^^ Perhaps we could make it as a material that is exclusively for brewing. Is just a thought.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:06:30 AM by Tom Sawyer »

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 04:13:45 AM »
You are a sophisticated woman. The numbers were only from the feeling and I just like round numbers. But if you want a derivation, here it is ... The summer in the North is shortened about 2 months. Thats about 25% shorter. The required area of ​​a cattle is 20 tiles. To increase it to a 5x5 also means 25%. :)

I might be a lot of things, but sophisticated? Hm, I wouldn't think of that.  ;D :D
And yes, the numbers sounds reasonable, but as I said: It has to be tested, to see how it influences the game. Theory is one thing, how it really works, another.

And I realize you don't like my reindeer. It would only be for the polar region. Actually you're right. Maybe I have to make a polar mod. That would be the impossible mode. ;D

I'm sorry. I saw the changed color of the deer but I didn't realize it was reindeer. Actually it never crossed my mind. In the game these animals are a hunting pray and in Sweden reindeer are domestic animals, owned by someone and you would get a lot of trouble if you hunted them. I've heard, that there are some places in Norway with wild reindeer, that could be hunted but that's an exception. I thought you have adapted the color of the deer to the climate. I winter they are more gray, not so red as they are in summer.

For the storage problem, only we need to increase the capacity of the barns. But you will get a Swedish barn. I am working on it.

I don't think, that bigger barns is a good idea. I find, that one of the challenges with Banished, is to build enough barns in right places, without spoiling ground and materials by building too many. Bigger barns would make the game easier and we don't want that, am I right?


Hm, I think about barley. Actually, I don't want fields with grain in the north. But I want to brew proper beer. In my country there are huge fields of barley, but we don't eat it. We make masses of beer.^^ Perhaps we could make it as a material that is exclusively for brewing. Is just a thought.

It looks like you want to make your mod historically correct. And historically in North Sweden barely was the most common bread crop. It's the most frost resistant of all grain. As far as I know, it was the main food source, at least before 1900. It was cooked to porridge, used for bread (not the kind of bread we know today, much harder and dryer) and of cause, as you know it; used to make beer. So if you want to have barely only for beer, it's historically wrong for this region.

Where are you from? Germany?

Now to my little game. It's over. It was very nice. I reached the 2000 inhabitants, without real trouble. It's sound and stable.

Could it have been built bigger?

Yes of cause, with a big map, this was medium. But on a medium map, it would probably work as well, but be a bit tricky. The main problem is logs. The production need space and order the expensive logs, is no good option. It might even be better to order firewood and use the logs, you produce yourself to make tools for sale. This will lead to another problem; the location of the blacksmiths. I located the blacksmiths and tailors all over the map; at the markets and close to mines/barns where the wool was stored. This meant, that the stupid traders ran all over the map collecting 2 steel tools here or 1 woolcoat there; very inefficient. There were a lot of tools and coats in the stores, but there was no time to fill the port, until the next boat arrived.

I made some experiments, when the map was full, and I just ran the game to check, if the settlement was stable: Potatoes and cherries grow better, than my beans and apples in this climate. I like that potatoes are good, they where an important food source, but cherries? Of cause they grow in the north, you can see these old sour cherry trees at many old farms. But you cannot store cherries, you have to preseve them with sugar (expensive). Apples could be stored and dried to be used more or less all year. So I would prefere, if apples was the best fruit.



Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2016, 06:39:19 AM »
Historically correctly it should be. That's a nice incentive.

The reindeer we should paint back. I don't want trouble because of hunting.^^ In your description it's livestock. But it is cooped in a fenced pasture?

Barley is interesting. A suitable kind of grain would make the game easier, but it would be correct. As food of course. I think the Germans also ate barley as porridge...^^

The storage of food, especially fruits, is a problem in itself. There was a suggestion to make the food perishable. But that will not come. It would be interesting and we could do a lot with it. The processing of certain fruits we could simulate, for example by apples are processed into something that brings more food. And with cherries you can not make it or only at great expense with sugar, as you say. RedKetchup makes something in this direction with NMT.

That's very nice that you had fun with the little game. Now it's my turn to make new stuff and then we can test the theory... :)

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nordic Landscape
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2016, 03:38:29 AM »
I don't know much about reindeer breeding. I have lived in North Sweden but in the coastal region, where there are no reindeer. I know, that they could only be owned by the Sami people. They are not held in pastures, they are held i the mountains. However there are fences in these mountains, many kilometer long, not closed, just long. There are also some small corrals. To my knowledge they are only used once or twice a year, when the herds are collected and brought into these corrals. They young animals are marked and some are slaughtered.

I have seen this once. It was pure occasional. One autumn we were hiking in the mountain. It was quite late in the season, no snow yet, but I can remember, that it was frost on the tent i the morning. Suddenly we saw parked cars, in the mountain, far away from the common road. Around a bend there were people and a lot of reindeers, hundreds maybe a thousand of them in the corrals. The people were really cathing them with lassos. It was impressive. Most impressive was, as one big herd was released again to the mountain. It was a great experience.

But talking about historically correct; It might have been, that reindeer were hunted a long time ago. The Sami people were much discriminated and the settlers from the south might very well have hunted their reindeer. I don't know.

I'm excited to see your next version of the mod. I'll be glad to be "test pilot".