Author Topic: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods  (Read 2872 times)

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Online Necora

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2017, 05:43:04 PM »
I agree... I played through and got annoyed with it. I think the only solution is to remove firewood from the cutter and have a separate wood chopper. If I reduce the work required and work time more, the lumber aspect will be over powered.

I also got annoyed having to build the huge vanilla trade post, so made a new one for the PEI shore set. It is small and gets the job done.

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2017, 08:53:28 PM »
I think that was one of my earlier concerns we chatted about on BL about the power of the chopper vs the lumber.
I still think *cough cough* that a small 2 x 2 to match the tailor would be excellent, with a matching house.
They could then line up with the x4 house & the town hall etc, in nice pairs. :)
But that's just me.

Back to the numbers (and sidelining my 2x2 requests :)  ) I'm still having problems with the ropes and their speed etc.  Will certainly take a look now with your new updates.  2 per season change was quite frustrating.  But, we will see now :D
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Online Necora

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2017, 09:00:37 PM »
@QueryEverything rope isn't necessarily a problem with speed, it is more a problem with the amount of resources needed to make them. As for your question over at BL about load order, this is probably the first thing that I am possibly going to change from CC (I think I will definitely have to change). I had rope with CC values to make it compatible, but 150 ish hemp/flax for two rope? That is crazy high. I know it takes a lot to make rope, but still that is a bit extreme. A good hemp crop field only produces like 300 hemp a year, so you get 6 ropes with an educated worker. (Note, these are 1.6 numbers). My dock rope maker has the same work time/work required as the CC one I think. Also, the value of rope is 1 - quite high for something that will go into a resource chain but at the same time 2 - a massive loss in value compared to the amount of flax/hemp needed to make it.

This change is not yet in the new update, I didn't think about it to be honest you should have reminded me ;) but it will be changed soon.

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2017, 09:05:52 PM »
If I reminded you about all my wishlist things ...  hahaha ...  :)

I think in your case, definitely still loading over CC, I don't mind the change in the icons & images, but because your content is pushed out more regularly it makes sense to me that yours above CC, and this is exactly why.  Correcting things on the fly, and altering existing numbers from resources. 

Thanks for doing all of this.  I've just grabbed Sherbrooke now, and will wait a little bit before loading a new map, there have been quite a few new releases today by members :D  happy days indeed!  :D
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2017, 04:52:38 AM »

have been quite a few new releases today by members :D  happy days indeed!  :D

It's getting almost stressful with all those new things. There's so much new, I want to test. There are also some "old favourites" I want to return to. I'm retired with health issues, so I have a lot of time. Who said this is a dead game?  ;D

As next I will load the upgrades and go on with this game (if possible). Are the upgrades compatible?

I forget one thing: I wanted to tell you, how I like the small houses.

I very much like the look of them; both the colorful and the "tarred" design. It's really great to see, how the same buildings give the settlement a totally different look depending only on the color. I also like the look of the upgraded houses. They look a bit "crazy"; not so neat, rather "out of the  box". That's adorable.

But unfortunately, in a normal game, I'm sorry to say; I wouldn't build any of these houses. Why?

First reason, I don't like upgrading buildings. I rare cases, I can see there might be a point, to have an upgradable building; A small cheap production building or storage, could maybe be upgraded to a larger, more productive one, or the only upgradable building in a vanilla game; a cheap simple house could be upgraded to a more efficient later in the game. But in these cases; like the vanilla house; it should always be possible to build the upgraded version without the detour of the simple building. Why on earth should I demolish a whole house, throw its inhabitants out on the streets, just to extend it with a room on the second floor? I see only one case, where it has a sense; if you want to use more than 3 different building materials. (Like the more advanced houses in the early CC versions, before they got the clever idea of packaging building materials.)

Second reason, the basic houses are only for a 3 person family. In a normal game, they are useless. You have to upgrade. (Or use a lot of tedious tricks and micromanagement) You can't develop a settlement without babies, I prefere many babies. Only on rare occasions, playing real time (maybe with @Tom Sawyer´s ironman or other special difficulties) a house for a small family can be useful, if you want to slow the population growth down. You can do without tricks and micromanagement with 4 person houses, but not if you want the settlement to grow fast.

I can understand, that you choose these small families. The houses are small and cheap and should have some disadvantage to larger, more expensive buildings. You don't want to "overpower" anything. I like that thought, but it's a pity, if the consequences would be, that they seldom would be used.

If it was my mod, I would make the small version for a 4 person family, the upgraded version also buildable from the menu, without detour for 5, but especially the smallest version, only store a small amount of food and fuel.

The pictures show impressions from different parts of the same settlement; same mod, different look. :)

Online Necora

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2017, 07:03:52 AM »
@Nilla all current versions of all mods are (should be) fully compatible, and load order doesn't really matter.

Regarding the houses, I like small ones with low families, if I know about it first! I used the log cabins in CC for years and had population problems, didn't realize until then that the family only has 1 child at a time. But once changing my style to accommodate this, they certainly have a use in game. When I start a game, for the first year, I only have one or two small houses as a place for food an warmth. Too many, and you struggle with firewood. Late game, for controlling population, they are great in mining/forestry outposts, and the upgrade function can be useful too. I see how having the upgraded cabins on the tool bar can help, but I kinda like this style of upgrade. If I want a bigger capacity, I upgrade before anyone moves in. It is a shame the upgrade system is so destructive in Banished because I would like to use it for the fishery buildings too so that things like dory can have more use to upgrade buildings when they 'run out' but it seems like too much to do. Plus you cannot have a circular update, i.e. you can't update to the same building, the mod kit gets stuck in a loop and crashes.

I've had a couple of people mention the same as you, but I can't decide what I like best. I think I will add more houses soon, that way you have the small cabins as a choice if needed. The upgrade will remain upgrade only though.

Online Necora

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2017, 08:38:56 PM »
@Nilla so I had a good play through this evening, and I now totally agree with you about the cabins! I had a few for a year or so, but once I started building the town up properly I found myself instantly upgrading them. For the next update I'll increase the family of the cabin to 4 and the upgrade to 5.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2017, 05:31:08 AM »
I`pleased to hear that. :)

I like the look of these cabins and it would be a pity, if they had such a limited use to a player with little patience, such as me!  ;)

I have a few more production numbers. I didn't use the upgraded version of the Pine Set but the others. Everything is for 1 worker.

Mariteme farmer
Milk (Milk Pen) 360-420 

Goat milk 120-200
Wool        66-96  annual profit of Goat Pen 590

Egg       150-180
Feather 108-144 annual profit of Hen Hutch 290


I have some comments to this. As always; only my opinion. Take it for what it is! The production of milk is OK; about the same as protein from your shore fisher. This is a bigger, more expensive building, but you can put several farmers in it, so that's OK. I find, the production of wool from the goat pen too high. You need a large sheep pasture to produce the same amount. That's also the reason, the annual profit is higher than the other. The goat milk production is OK compared to the larger milk pen. I would reduce the wool production at least 50%. Your chicken farmer are really cruel; tearing feathers from living chicken; really bad people!  >:( ;) (They produce a lot of feathers but no chicken meat) Personally I don't like feathers as a product. In CC they can make pillows and some weird survival coats and maybe something else I don't remember, but as long as you don't have these production chains in your mod (and I would think once or twice, before I introduce something like that) I would change the output to chicken meat.

I haven't prodcued more domestic animals, than I need in my buildings. It seems like production cost=trade value, the farmer, who breed the animals, would work for nothing. So it's not a trade product. Of cause; not everything has to be a suitable trade product, but I find it's a pity to have a nice big building, that stands closed most of the time. You don't need that many animals yourself. I might be wrong, I don't play much CC, but I think their production cost is 200 for a trade value of 250. Maybe the "production speed" is too high for a profit of 50 for each animal. I had a feeling, that the animals, I needed were produced quite fast. I have a lot of corn at the moment (I even had to close my corn fields) so I will let it run a whole year to see how much is produced. As alternative you could make a butcher, that slaughtered the domestic animals and made meat/meat products of them.

Maple products


Maple sap 500  trade profit 100

Cider (apples)    190-260    trade profit 800
Whiskey             330           trade profit 1200     

The location of the maple boiler isn´t very good. The pine forest with charcoaler and the maple forest are located on each side of the settlement. The boiler is close to the maple forest, but they have to walk far, to get chatcoal, so a better location would probably increase the production. (pine forest and maple forest close to eachother) Most of the time, as I ran the alcohol producers, I bought maple syrup and apples, so the location close to the trading port is good, but I might have ran short on maple syrup some time.

If you want to use the alcohol for your population without additional mods, you'll need an inn. Now it's export only. Your people might get annoyed, never be able to taste these products. ;)

Maybe you should also think a bit about some industrial market/warehouse with vendors, who active gather rawmaterial together, where you can locate production sites close. It's not necessary. As you can see, the production numbers and the profit of these maple products are high as it is (but still only 1/3 -1/2 of the vanilla brewery :) ). But if you want to build large settlements, partly dependent on trade, such a market makes it easier. Without any it works as well, you have to think more about good locations, and that makes the game more challenging.

I also produced some rope. I will not write about the production. I think you're well aware of the fact, that it needs a lot of material and the loss of each rope in trade units is huge. I think you should do something to change this; I can see several ways to go: less raw material, changed trade values..... but why not keep it hard and expensive to produce. As long as you don't need much (and as I can see it, you don't). Just don't let it be a trade product: Let no merchant bring rope and the products you need rope to make, like dories. I think that's possible.

Picture

I've built your new small trading port. It works fine. It's small, you can't store much goods in it. It's more than enough, for this small settlement with only some 80 peeps. In fact, I have more things I want to sell, than I need to buy. But soon enough as the settlement grows, you will need a larger port. Do you have some plans for that?

You can see my inventory. I just noticed, that I have much too much food. (my usual problem) :-\ I've sent the fisher home and changed the production of the fields from corn to hemp.

Offline grammycat

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2017, 06:50:15 AM »
I definitely agree with Nilla on the houses-they are rapidly becoming some of my favorite, except for the occupancy numbers and upgrading right off.  An upgrade to 5, as you suggested, would be so much better.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 07:48:51 AM by grammycat »

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2017, 02:15:12 PM »
I love the houses as well, and I find even when not building near the water I am using the bright colours, even in my forest!! 
It will be great to have larger families :)  Thanks @Necora

@Nilla we have different play styles, and I don't always agree on 'the numbers', but, thank you for all the feedback you have been offering up, it gives a different perspective to the game. 
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2017, 03:49:18 AM »
Yes, @QueryEverything, that's the cool thing with Banished; it's possible to enjoy playing in so many ways, everyone has their own. And to the "numbers"; when I make my comments and suggestions: It's only my opinion, based on my way of playing. I'm well aware, that other people may see it different. I don't expect, that a modder change everything, the way I think, would be the best. But I hope, that my suggestions and comments could be something to think about, a help to see things also from another point of view.

Anyway I started a new game yesterday evening. I added some more mods, I haven't played with: Red's Training camp, the Colonial Houses and Producers from Kid (I used them in the MegaMod but not as a separate mod) and some other smaller mods from @RedKetchup and @kid1293 .

I also use @Tom Sawyer's ironman. It is actually ironman not iron woman. ;) In my mod list I have one of each; the difference is that ironman is real time aging, iron woman is vanilla speed. I decided to keep it that way, to keep them apart. My Nordic games with this mods showed, that the speed in which the settlement grows, isn't that big after all. With the real time mod it's a bit easier, to control the population growth, so I chose it. If you haven't followed the development of the Nordic mod and my earlier testing blogs, I can tell, that with ironman/woman every Banni need the double amount of food and clothing. I wanted to test it in a game with vanilla game play. So far, I've only tested it in the North.

The picture shows more or less my whole settlement in year 14.

There's a forester, gatherer, hunter ( @Necora´s vanilla versions) just behind the "photographer". I can see, that the active circle is smaller than it was. :) Have you changed anything else with the output of the forester? Anyhow the production numbers doesn't seem to have changed a lot for one worker. Maybe the gatherers collects a little less, if you use 2 and the hunter also find in average one deer less, than he did with the big circle, but a single forester produce at least the same as he did with the large circle. (I haven't enough people to use more than 1, yet).

As I played the North on harsh climate, I got trouble, as soon as the number of children+student was more than 50% of the adults. Here with vanilla gameplay, the adults can support about 100%. That's a big difference; seems to be a faster growth and much less micromanagement in this game! :)

I've seen, that you've added a market to the Pine mod. It can hold a lot of goods, for the size and the cost. It also looks very much like the material storage. What are your plans? Will you leave it that way. I'm not sure, but I think I saw another design from you somewhere.

I can quote myself:
Quote
Let no merchant bring rope and the products you need rope to make
I think it is that way now. I also think, that no merchant bring any material with the "new flags". This is also something to think about. Should it stay that way? It's not so easy, to see the consequences, so early in a game. Do we really need to buy these materials? An easy way to go, would maybe be to make a little change of the merchants. Let the same merchant bring seeds and lifestock and let the free merchant bring all new materials (maybe with some small exceptions).

I've also seen one small thing to fix, that I've always forgot to tell; whiskey has no name in the inventory and at the merchant. It's just a barrel with no text. You can see it in the inventory at the picture from my last post.
 

Online Necora

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 06:45:08 PM »
@Nilla I never got around to replying to previous comments so here goes.

I find, the production of wool from the goat pen too high. You need a large sheep pasture to produce the same amount. That's also the reason, the annual profit is higher than the other. The goat milk production is OK compared to the larger milk pen. I would reduce the wool production at least 50%.

Hmm. There is a problem with this and how the game works, and it is a big limitation in the game mechanics. It is the same issue with lumber/firewood from earlier. In the building, especially as this has no input, the only thing I can change is the work time/work required for the whole thing. You can't change the output one resource without changing the other, unless there is something I am missing. If I change the work required/work time, make it slower, then milk will also become slower. The high/low create values of a resource are in the file for the resource, not the building. So in this case, if I was to change the wool output and not the milk output, I would have to change the vanilla rawmaterialwool.rsc file to reduce the number of wool produced per work time/work required combination (high/low create values). This would also reduce it for everything else that makes wool, so it would be still comparatively overpowered.

The only option is to add another type of wool to the game, and I don't think I particularly want to do that.

Quote
Your chicken farmer are really cruel; tearing feathers from living chicken; really bad people!  >:( ;)

Or.. they pick the discarded feathers out of the coop, if you want to think of it in a nicer way ;). But I agree, feathers without killing is an odd one.

Quote
(They produce a lot of feathers but no chicken meat) Personally I don't like feathers as a product. In CC they can make pillows and some weird survival coats and maybe something else I don't remember, but as long as you don't have these production chains in your mod (and I would think once or twice, before I introduce something like that) I would change the output to chicken meat.

Well, it will be too small a hutch to have chicken produced IMO. Maybe, but I'm not sure. I will use feathers later in clothing as a 'down' material. I'm still thinking through re-vamping the clothing options to make them more interesting, and adding more than just coats. It annoys me that my bannies are running around in nothing but a leather jacket... no wonder reproduction rates are often low.

Quote
I haven't produced more domestic animals, than I need in my buildings. It seems like production cost=trade value, the farmer, who breed the animals, would work for nothing. So it's not a trade product. Of cause; not everything has to be a suitable trade product, but I find it's a pity to have a nice big building, that stands closed most of the time. You don't need that many animals yourself. I might be wrong, I don't play much CC, but I think their production cost is 200 for a trade value of 250. Maybe the "production speed" is too high for a profit of 50 for each animal. I had a feeling, that the animals, I needed were produced quite fast. I have a lot of corn at the moment (I even had to close my corn fields) so I will let it run a whole year to see how much is produced. As alternative you could make a butcher, that slaughtered the domestic animals and made meat/meat products of them.

I'm not sure about the newest incarnation of CC, by my numbers were from Kralyergs' stable mod. If they have changed the numbers, I will do so as well. I like the domesticated animal resource, you don't just start a goat pen with no goats, so it makes a nice bit of complexity and realism to the game. I would, however, rather that they had a better purpose i.e. that you need a constant supply of them to produce things not just to build the pens. After all, it is hard not to overpower the pens that even if they need 12 animals, they then produce food for nothing forever. It would either make the building need to be re-build it or keep supplying it with animals to produce stuff. That would need a lot of work balancing though, for example you'd be looking at trying to make it use 2 domesticated animals a year to produce say 700 food for a 200 unit profit. I've no idea how to make a building work that slow.

Re. Alcohol - I just made a tavern, and a matching (but two story) hostel :) Pic attached.

Re. Vendors - I didn't want to make a whole set of small markets, there are plenty out there already and mine would not be too different visually. I really like the market puzzle mod by @kid1293 but not sure if it is updated yet for the new flags. I did want at least a central market for each set though. We'll see how it all develops!

Re. Rope: You can't stop a merchant from bringing individual items, but you can stop them bringing all of that flag, so in this case the 'crafted' flag. While I agree that is a good idea, it will vanish as soon as you add other mods that re-introduce the flag.

Re. Port: Yup, there will be one in each dock set (PEI, NS, Offshore) and even some specialized ones which I use heavily late game.

And the next one...

Yes, @QueryEverything, that's the cool thing with Banished; it's possible to enjoy playing in so many ways, everyone has their own. And to the "numbers"; when I make my comments and suggestions: It's only my opinion, based on my way of playing. I'm well aware, that other people may see it different. I don't expect, that a modder change everything, the way I think, would be the best. But I hope, that my suggestions and comments could be something to think about, a help to see things also from another point of view.

Totally appreciate the feed back. From reading the boards, I think a lot of the time unless there are bugs in the mods that need to be fixed, they get downloaded and used, and very little info comes back to us about what people think of them in terms of not only visuals but the actual play ability of them in terms of production chains etc. So this is great.

Re. Forester: This one is complicated. I did reduce the radius, and it does have an effect on the other buildings too, but not much effect on the forester itself. I don't know how or why the output is different from vanilla, it shouldn't be. After all, the vanilla radius is huge compared, and at the start of the game you are not filling it with 4 workers, there are not enough bannies. I am not sure, apart from increasing the amount of log produced in the rawmaterialwood.rsc file, that I can improve this output.

Re. Market: Yup the structure will stay the same, but I will decrease the radius and storage. At the moment it is vanilla to make sure it works. While I will keep it the same style, I am planning some decorative market add-ons that you can use to add whatever visual stalls etc. that you want to all markets. It will give some good variation I think. And yeah, there is another one in the Sherbrooke set which is currently under testing.

Re. Merchants: I am wondering if there is something I forgot to do with the new flags there. I will ask people. I noticed some // in the file and not sure if I need to remove that or not.

Whiskey has been noted.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 06:48:25 PM by Necora »

Offline kid1293

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2017, 12:32:00 AM »

Short reply - I have not added any new flags to Market Puzzle,
I want to ensure the flags are being used and not placed on the wrong
market stall. I know this a cowardly way to do it (you jump first) :)
but most of my mods are in fact only vanilla resources.
One more thing. I wait for Luke to release 1.0.7 with maybe some changes and
CC to go modular using the new flags. Then I go over my mods again and update.

If you have any suggestions for flags and improvement I am all ears (eyes ? ).

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2017, 12:58:13 AM »
The wool output of sheep is not defined in the wool resource @Necora. So if you decrease the production of your pen it does not influence sheep pastures. And you also can do it by worktime instead of create values.

Vanilla sheep produce 4 wool per year on 16 game tiles. So 1 wool per 4 tiles. That's a reference value for other wool producers. Actually I don't like wool from goats. Maybe goat hair with much less amount than wool and higher trade value or so. Or better just meat and milk from goats. It's all up to you but it would be cool to not replace our cute sheep by an overpowered milky wool goat. :)

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Re: Testing Necora´s Canadian mods
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2017, 04:41:50 AM »
@kid1293 I'd say that is smart not cowardly, better be sure than have to re-do it all again.

@Tom Sawyer interesting. The way I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, is that the pasture is set up to drop 4 wool per year per sheep as you say, so 4 instances of wool being harvested. However, that does not mean that you get 4 wool per sheep per year, but 4 wool drops. Each wool drop will produce 6/6 high/low amounts of wool according to the wool template. That means that you actually get 6*4 or 24 individual counts of wool in total from each animal. And it is also the same between educated and non-educated workers. Now, I could change the work time and work required to reach 24, but this would mean also reducing the amount of milk produced. The building produces both items 'at random'...

Code: [Select]
ConsumeProduceDescription consumeproduce
{
Product _products
[
{
ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialGoatsMilk.rsc";
ResourceLimit _resourceLimit = Food;
}
{
ComponentDescription _produceMaterial = "Template/RawMaterialWool.rsc";
ResourceLimit _resourceLimit = Textile;
}
]

float _workTime = 8.0;
ToolType _toolType = Hoe;
int _workRequired = 10;
int _initialProduct = -1; // -1 for all products

}

So increasing work time/work required would decrease the amount of both resources, not just one. I don't believe we can change the frequency of each individually? This is why I mentioned changing the high/low create of wool is the only way to separate wool production from milk production in this building, but in doing so it will also decrease the amount produced by the pasture.

I could increase the create values of goats milk to compensate for this, it is currently 10/8 high/low. As long as I remember this when I make bigger pens or put them into a pasture.

However, I'm not planning to put them into a pasture, because I have no idea how to animate them.


Quote
Actually I don't like wool from goats. Maybe goat hair with much less amount than wool and higher trade value or so. Or better just meat and milk from goats. It's all up to you but it would be cool to not replace our cute sheep by an overpowered milky wool goat

But what about cashmere? That is goat wool, not hair. I think it would perhaps be better to add this as a new resource, rather than use wool even if I want to ultimately use it for the same things in the clothing chain.

I would like to add meat for them, same with chicken meat for the hutches, however it doesn't really work for these buildings. They are small pens, so constantly producing meat will mean that you are constantly killing your only goat. The idea is to replicate having a small family yard with one animal that they saved up to buy (expensive domesticated animal resource) that will provide a constant yet low supply of milk or eggs or wool etc. that can feed the family and add a little to sell.