Author Topic: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more  (Read 2023 times)

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Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 07:38:40 AM »
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Fishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place? still unsure.

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I like that idea of the drying place, it's on my favourite things list :)  (you can blame Vikings for that ;) )
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Offline Paeng

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 07:51:44 AM »
Fishmonger building will stay but now be a storage place for now, or maybe a fish drying place?

Yeah, drying, salting... any kind of processing would be welcome  :)


As for the many different types of fish... I tried to sort them, according to their value, sell all that are worth 2+ and have the rest eaten by my pop... but, yeah... the micro managing is quite tedious  :P
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Online Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 05:06:43 AM »
I would like some processing like drying and salting of fish on the jetty, too.

I made some more experimenting with jetty/bridges/merchants. I can't say I understand how it work. Maybe someone else can.

First picture.

Before I demolished the storage (blue) no merchant arrives to this port (red).

Second picture

Here is a drawbridge. Merchants arrive to the port, you can see the foot print from.

Third picture

This drawbridge works different. No merchant passes beneath it. Normally they use the path where the bridge is. As I closed the entrance to the port by building jetty parts, where the merchant is on this picture, no merchant arrived to the ports in my harbour area.

Can anyone explain the difference?

If anyone try similar experiments, you have to be a bit patient. The first merchant to each port that arrives after you have "closed the access" can pass, even year after the bridges or jetties are built. The same if you demolish something and open the harbour again. It takes one merchant, until it works properly again.

I will continue these experiments and try to understand how it works. So far I see no logic.

Offline Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 10:22:27 PM »
That is just like my observations with this.

There doesn't seem to be a clear pattern with it either. All the code for them are written the same, but some will allow travel, while others not, and sometimes a new game will give different results ;( it has frustrated me for months.

in the new version I have included a way to build the jetties/bridges like normal bridges (drag, drop and build) this will at least allow players to build them across streams & rivers and should not influence traders.
I'm also making some more visual alternates, and the drawbridges will have 'Closed' variant, which can have a once off upgrade to 'Open'.

Offline Paeng

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 02:56:57 AM »
There doesn't seem to be a clear pattern with it either.

No, there isn't...  :(

I have experimented a lot with this, mainly trying to "break" the paths - mostly unsuccessful, in 99% all my (DS) ports, bridges etc. work just fine, even the diagonals... the few I did manage to break, and many (non-'scientific') observations of other's attemps (on different forums) are that in most cases they seem to dislike -

* certain terrain features - on a (properly river-connected) lake that is "hidden" behind a sharp corner or a peninsula (so the boat has no clear "line of sight" to the port)... or those low landbridges that are sometimes ignored, sometimes not...

* multiple connected lakes - again starting with a properly river-connected lake that has more lakes connected (no visible land-bridges), the farther the lake the higher the probability of not being seen...

like the marsh-map Nilla shows - that type seems to be really hard on traders, apparently they dislike it when you build a bridge across a previously travelled path, even if it is far away from the main river - meaning a bridge not across the main river but somewhere else on the map, like across a lake or so... weird, but yeah...

* ports that are cramped (no offense meant) or tightly packed with other structures and / or built at odd angles (relative to the shoreline) - I always try to build ports along a waterway (like the water flows, as opposed to angled or perpendicular), with a bit of space before and after the actual landing space, avoiding other structures to jut out into the waterway, or building a port "around the corner", or protruding structures immediately across the port, narrowing the waterway to just 1 or two tiles (that sometimes gives me problems even in vanilla)...


My impression is that it's not the Jetty or bridge code, but messy terrain and pathing errors... that probably get compounded, the more we try to build out of the vanilla scope.

My way - since I don't want to forego modular and diagonal bridges - make a save, build the port or bridge(s) and observe for at least two successive boats before committing to the new structure... repeat when building additional ones. Not ideal, and you may lose a year or two... but hey  :D
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Online Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2017, 04:45:25 AM »
I think, it's a good idea to make your very nice looking, bridges buildable as a "normal bridge". Thank you, @Discrepancy!

I can agree with most of your observations @Paeng. As long as there's just a river, or you're only building trading ports on the river, not in lakes, there will be no problem. I'm also sure, it has nothing to do with the mods themselves. You can have these problems in a pure vanilla game as well.

I've also found out, why the first draw bridge seemed to work, without blocking the passage for the merchant. It was a bit stupid of me not to see. It's not really a bridge. People can't pass, because it has no proper "landing" on one side. As I built one, the merchants don't visit that port anymore. (First picture) Now it seems more logical to me: On a map like this with a lot of lakes, you can't "block" the access to a port with jetty parts and jetty bridges, if you want merchants to arrive. As soon as people can pass, no merchant will!

In this game, it doesn't matter much. I have more ports, than I need. It might even be a trick to make the merchants arrive more seldom! Have one cheap piece somewhere, that you can demolish, if you want the merchants to arrive. When you've bought enough of what you wanted, rebuild it and let them pass without disturbing you!  :-\ :P

These jetty/merchant experiments take time. I have to wait for a few merchants to see the result. In that time I had a lot of time to develop the town and test some buildings. I'll show you a few impressions and menus. The second picture shows more or less the whole prosperous town in the year 32: 367 inhabitans living on a small space. The third picture is a small impression from the original city center; not much free space there!  :-\ I find your mods are really nice @Discrepancy! Even the way I build; too dense, no decorations at all; the town looks good!  :) I have one question to you @Discrepancy and to you @embx61. I'm testing both of your bakeries. But why do you need different kind of bakers?

The fourth picture shows another similar impression from a smaller center. It also shows my inventory. This town lives on trade. I have to buy all food categories except proteins, I have a lot of fish, that I also sell together with a few other things. I`ve cut in the content in my ports. I don't really want to sell gathering baskets. I had too many and wanted to test, if they can be loaded into the port. You can see; they can't. Same thing with candles. I buy (order) flour, plums, onions, beans, pumpkins (so I can run the village kitchen) and logs. I also buy a few iron, coal and stones.


Offline embx61

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 12:20:23 PM »
@Nilla,

I just loaded DS Village Production and looked at the professions in the modlist rollout in the mod list.

It seems that @Discrepancy have his professions with DS in front of it so it says DSProfession _baker.crs.

That is why there are also 2 millers.

just profession _baker.crs will share the professions with other mods and the icons each modder have made for the profession(s) will be used by the mod what is highest in the mod list.

Discrepancy have the rawmaterials (No DS in front of it) all good so they share it with other mods so I suspect it is a oversight with the professions.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:41:31 PM by embx61 »
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Online Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2017, 05:46:24 AM »
Thank you @embx61 for looking. I hope you will change this @Discrepancy. If you use a lot of mods, the profession list is long enough, without having the same profession twice. Generally, I think all you modders ought to look at @RedKetchup and how he deals with new professions; thinking two or three times, before introducing a new profession and if possible use an existing one for your new mods.

I don't know, what has happened to me. Since I started this game, I don't think I've written once about balancing! I must be sick!  ;) :-\

So I will catch up and only write about balancing this time! Just a warning to everyone, who isn't interested. This will be long! Stop read now!

I will write a bit about every profession, I've tried so far. First, I will explain, what I mean, when I'm talking about balancing and what I mean, with the words I'm using. This is my opinion based on my way of playing. The numbers comes from this game. When I compare numbers, it's always for one worker.

Reasonable - That's what I like all production to be. A reasonable average annual production for a food producer is about 500 (if it uses an input, of cause the output has to be reduced with it), a bit less, (but not less than 200) if it's cheap, small or maybe also for an intermediate product in a production chain, a bit more, if it needs a lot of space, or have a complicated chain (but not more than 1000). Similar for other buildings; a range between 200 and 1000 as annual profit is reasonable.

Overpowered - The production is too high, related to the circumstances.

Valueless - The profit of this building is too low. It can be a a too low productivity or a too high input related to the output. It mustn't be a loss, but if a worker doesn't at least "earn" his own living, I don't see much use of a production building.

Of cause, there might be exceptions. But in such a case, I want it to understand the reasons. (not necessarily agree on them) .

The buildings are (almost) all from @Discrepancy (DS), only a few from @embx61 and one from @RedKetchup .

Gatherers (DS)
I like the idea of the small basket gatherers. If you put the "normal" on a perfect spot, he might pick very much food the first year (>1000) but it will be reduced to a reasonable level (~400) the folloving years. The acorn gatherer is overpowered. I've noted up to 1155 acorns annual. The normal gatherer buildings, could be built with different large active area. Not a bad idea. I use the medium. It looks like it collects less than a vanilla gatherer, I'm not sure, it might just be the location on this map. The output is a bit low for that large area, but still in a reasonable range.

Fisher (DS)
There are several different fisher. I haven't built the big fisher, yet. It has a huge influence area, especially for this small map, but I will build one. It looks great! If you place the jetty/bridge fisher good, they catch a lot of fish; up to 1000, the small  waterside fisher less (343-688). I don't have more than 1 fisher in any jetty spot (yet? have more fish than I need presently) with 2 fisher in each, the output for each will most likely be reduced, the same if the active area is "disturbed", so the average value may be 600-700. You say, you use vanilla values for the fisher, @Discrepancy. You can build them on the jetties with a very good influence area, that gives a high output; it's slightly overpowered. But on the other hand, there might be a reason to leave it that way. A "jetty society" like this lives on fishing, trading fish for other food. Of cause, they are good at it.

Water pump (DS, embx, RK)
I have compared the water pumps/wells from you guys. The annual production is very different. DS:160-176, embx: 304-368, RK: 464-608. I find it problematic, when buildings, doing the same thing, have such a different output. It can't be explained in used space or how expensive they are; contrary DS waterpump is the largest and most expensive, RK well is the smallest. For a simple product like this, I find a production of about 400 reasonable. The look of your pump is great @Discrepancy; a good decoration, but it's quite valueless as a production building.

Beeshelter (DS)
I've only used the version where you can choose the output. I see no use in making anything except normal honey. Why are the other products so much less worth? Honey: 480-576, wax: ~300, comb: ~50 worth 3=150, jelly: ~18 worth 8=144. I can see the problem: It makes sense, that the production is low; a bee hive doesn't produce that much of these things but unless you have very special reason to use these other products, I see no value.

Windmills (DS,embx)
I must confess, I haven't built any of these but I will write a little about them anyway. I like the look of both but the reason, I didn't build any is, that they are totally valueless! They even destroy food; making 14 flour from 20 grain. Why would anyone want to use a mill like that? I know, it's the CC values and as I've said, as I talked about water; it's a problem when, buildings doing the same thing, have different "numbers" but there are outher mills out there, that make more sense. Why use these numbers?

Hunters (DS)
The "normal" hunter seems to have vanilla value; no reason to change that (even if it's quite overpowered if you succeed in selling all the meat, but the output is low, if you use it yourself). The small hunter using hunting gear makes fun to use at the beginning, if you see some deer in his circle. If you leave one, hunting all the time, he doesn't get many deer but it's good and reasonable.

Kitchen (DS)
This is a very good idea. In a Banished society, of cause there's a community kitchen, where people can grab a cooked meal. There are two different; one for gruel and one for more "exclusive"meals. I like the look of both. They look perfect in the surroundings, but I have one problem: None of them increase the amount of food, instead the value. Unfortunately the Banni doesn't care, if he eats one normal fish, worth 1 or one delicious Fishermans Catch, worth 7. I've demolished the gruel kitchen. I only have acorns and it makes no sense making gruel from them. I've kept the large one, exporting the products. Really, it's quite weird. A society like this would never have exported cooked food, but it's the only thing, that make sense. (a profit of around 950 if everything gets to the ports, that will hardly be the case, but the profit is still in a reasonable range) But I would very much like, that these buildings made sense for the Bannis. They are too good, to be for export and decoration only! Why don't you make something like the bakery? Not 3 beans, 3 pumpkins, 3 onions and 1 firewood to make 12 stew worth 5 like now, instead 30-40 stew worth one? (12*5=60 would be too much).

Bakery (DS,embx)
I've only produced bread and some bannocks, no cakes or pies yet. It's a bit more complicated, when you have to import the ingredients, but I will later. The "recipes" and production numbers are different comparing the both bakeries. In this case, it doesn't matter as much, as by the more simple products, like water and flour. Production numbers: DS Bakery: bannocks ~500-> 375 (reduced with the input) bread ~1000-> 650. Both are reasonable but why so much more profitable to make bread? embx Old Bakery: bread ~2000 -> 1200. This bakery is larger than the DS building, so I wouldn't mind a bit higher production but this is overpowered, especially when you can use 2 bakers. I had to send one home, since I was "swimming" in bread and saw that the production in the bakery was over 4000.

This is more than enough. I will write about the other buildings some other time. I hope, I wasn't all too negative. I do appreciate your work. Despite all these negative things I write, I like your mods! I don't expect everything to be changed to my liking, it's only my opinion; a little something to think about.

Offline Abandoned

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2017, 06:18:05 AM »
a lot to think about @Nilla , thanks for all the production information  :)

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2017, 09:27:21 AM »
to bad we can't write a mod to teach the program how to read. this way it would set the menu with less tags and not overly generic the jobs.say xxxfisherrman=fisherman, ABC mllworker=millworker . there is a huge list to the menu. i should change to a builder and labor menu but i like to see how many farmers and other food workers i have. the longer i run a map the more those numbers do matter.
  better yet if the menu organized the list by category: food workers,city service,miners,production-brick,lumber,candles,etc

Offline embx61

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2017, 01:19:59 PM »
Thanks @Nilla for the feedback regarding some of my mods.

The windmill and Bakery are old mods. The windmill was my first mod for Banished and just took CC numbers for flour without any thinking about it ,and if I remember right I asked for feedback about production numbers for the bakery and never got any feedback on the values. I will go over the numbers for both and let the bakery using water too as it is realistic in bread making.
I guess the water well is about right? It gave more water at release but turned it down after feedback the output was too high.
That is the dilemma us modders face. Some want high outputs and some want lower outputs.

The issue with same buildings using the same input/output raw materials from different mods will always be tricky to balance.
The building highest in the modlist will 'win' and those numbers are taken if I am not mistaken.

At least I did a test with RedKetchups Water Tower and my Water Well and the values changed to the values which mod was highest in the modlist.
I also did that test with saltworks and Red's saltmine and the values changed to the mods values which was higher in the modlist.

That is the reason RedKetchup have his water as NMWater as the output as the Fountain Mod water output was very high and so to avoid this. CC, Discrepancy, an me use NMWater as well.

And don't feel bad about your feedback. It is feedback as this what make us modders go for better values and stuff :)






 



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Offline Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2017, 04:23:46 PM »
Love the feedback, not negative at all :)

Gatherers:
Acorn Gatherer is a bit too high I agree, it has a constant cost of Gathering Baskets, but not enough. I will lower the output slightly and increase worktime in next release of DSSV:Production.
The next release will also see the other forest food gatherers and gather with basket also work better with Natural Diversity mod.

Fisher:
The Village Fishing Dock use exactly the same production and radius as vanilla. I had a request to possibly make this an upgrade model for higher production, so I am toying with the idea of having a simple dock (with less output) that will upgrade to this for the higher production and to utilise the Fishing Gear resource as a cost. I am still adjusting many of the radius' for all my fishing spots trying to get a good balanced output. Thanks for your thoughts.

Water Pump:
I realise mine is the biggest water pump, and the slowest now :)
It will be increased slightly to about embx61's well output of about 300-350. It will also have an upgrade for an even faster production - this will be needed one day when I make my distillery.

Bee Shelter:
Comb Honey and Royal Jelly aren't really important to have, but offer a few other resources that some like :) myself included. I did keep the likelihood of these low as in RL. The Royal Jelly can only be produced by an Educated worker also. These I'm not going to change, I like it.
Beeswax numbers are the same as in CC, but my apiary works slower with smaller footprint. Candles will be included in a mine cost for possible next release.

Hunters:
The Hunt with Hunting Gear will be changed to allow immediate demolish from UI, slightly larger footprint and no kill limit. Otherwise it requires too much micro-managing I find.

Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.
I did always find the grain-flour-bakery chain in CC a bit strange, but nonetheless I still copied their production numbers! well, WOB is my banished home, so I will alter this in the next release to something that makes a small profit in mill, and larger profit in bakery. The higher bread production compared to the bannocks is just because it still is using the same values as CC.



The professions I will also change, I didn't realise it was doing this. So yes an oversight on my behalf. Thanks @Nilla & @embx61 .

I'm trying to keep my professions list down. I could do something like RK has with the generic 'Worker' or try to utilise other professions more.
The water pump already uses the Gatherer profession to gather the water.
I might remove the 'Cook' from the kitchens and just have that as a 'Baker' also.
The Mill could be operated by a Farmer?
Bee Shelters could be Gatherers also.


@brads3 , we can change the way the professions list is organised by altering the sort priority number in the code. I guess it would be possible to make an override professions mod to do this. If you can make a list of all the professions, and in the order you think, I will see if it works.


Offline RedKetchup

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2017, 05:17:18 PM »
I'm trying to keep my professions list down. I could do something like RK has with the generic 'Worker' or try to utilise other professions more.
The water pump already uses the Gatherer profession to gather the water.
I might remove the 'Cook' from the kitchens and just have that as a 'Baker' also.
The Mill could be operated by a Farmer?
Bee Shelters could be Gatherers also.



sounds a very very great idea :)
this profession list is way too much long for nothing.
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Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2017, 05:42:47 PM »
Love the feedback, not negative at all :)

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Bee Shelter:
Comb Honey and Royal Jelly aren't really important to have, but offer a few other resources that some like :) myself included. I did keep the likelihood of these low as in RL. The Royal Jelly can only be produced by an Educated worker also. These I'm not going to change, I like it.
Beeswax numbers are the same as in CC, but my apiary works slower with smaller footprint. Candles will be included in a mine cost for possible next release.

Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.
I did always find the grain-flour-bakery chain in CC a bit strange, but nonetheless I still copied their production numbers! well, WOB is my banished home, so I will alter this in the next release to something that makes a small profit in mill, and larger profit in bakery. The higher bread production compared to the bannocks is just because it still is using the same values as CC.

@brads3 , we can change the way the professions list is organised by altering the sort priority number in the code. I guess it would be possible to make an override professions mod to do this. If you can make a list of all the professions, and in the order you think, I will see if it works.



Just had a couple of thoughts, after reading what @Nilla wrote, and what I saw in my game yesterday.

Bees - so, that explains that lack of Jelly.  I always enjoyed the jelly as an added health option, after all it's been known for centuries that bee goodness is good :)  But, I didn't have an educated worker assigned.  :(

Kitchen - yes, I found that I was only able to use 3 recipe out of all 3 kitchens, in fact I had to demolish the 2 I couldn't use as I saw no need to keep them when I simply didn't have the ingredients.  I rarely get a map that has a grain at the start, and Tany's New Flora doesn't work with other start conditions currently (until MM gets updated, or people work Tany's items into their start options).

I was however able to make Hunters Stew, and it was good :)  Always sold out at the stalls!!
I could have made the mushroom based recipes, but I didn't ever have enough mushrooms.

If you are removing the multi-fish meals, can you please consider put in a protein recipe based on the Vanilla protein options.  Beef, chicken, mutton, venison, fish, eggs, paired with the vanilla gatherers items.

Village Kitchen
Eggs:  ( @RedKetchup has a very nice omelette) Eggs + Onion + Firewood = Omelette with Shallots
Protein + Onions etc - like the Hunters Stew, but with the different proteins

Village Bakery:  Flour (some form of acorn flour?? or wild oat) + Eggs + Berries = Custard Tart

Additional "Kitchen" - Camp Kitchen, a smaller version of the kitchen, and it shares a couple of recipes from each:
Gruel / Bakery & Village Kitchen, with additional camp oven style recipes:  Damper; Blueberry Pie (or Porridge) with Wild Oats & Acorns.

I will probably add this comment to the actual mod thread, if you would prefer. 
But, given it came up here, sorry I jacked your thread @Nilla :D

----
Re the professions:  I don't mind so much new ones, it's the ones where it's the same name - but there are 2 of them.
There is a CC professions list, and I have most mods so I can screenshot the profession screen for use, if someone was to create an override mod - just means it needs to be updated as new professions are released.    (As for the order, I would say alphabetical, except for the core starter professions maybe?  Definitely builder near the top!!, but certainly alphabetical)

Ok, I think I'm done.  Sorry :(
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Offline embx61

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2017, 05:46:19 PM »
Yeah, my water well using a worker too.

Some professions are not bad though to have a different name because it was and is a skill to be a baker or a miller.

But easy stuff like getting water from a well, or sand from the beach, etc can be done by a regular laborer (Worker).

I maybe make my tanner a leatherworker too or the other way around to save a profession and gather Brine from a Brine Well to produce salt can be done by a worker too.
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