Author Topic: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more  (Read 1382 times)

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Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2017, 05:46:52 PM »
ohh no no no. the game would have to be able to read and google the terms itself.lmao with so many mods and different jobs aded. i guess it would only have to read the print lines in the code and total them all together. seriously? hmm laborers,builders then a food group;farmers,hunters ,gatherers,fishermen, it is already flawed the rice workers in CC are dock workers. the shoreman finds frogs,turtles ,and clay or sand......
   after that the list is debatable. essentials would be blacksmiths,taliors,firewood cutters.
   seriously if it was a quick easy mod and possible i would wish for the laborers,builders, and the food producers. that would be enough for a menu. most of us i think build towns with a tailor and BS in them. i use the TH to know how my clothing and tools are.its a good reference to what item is stocked more than another.what is overstocked can be processed or traded. but don't get crazy and do lots of work.

Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2017, 05:52:01 PM »
i agree EMBx, it isn't that the other skilled laborers aren't needed. the problem is the way the game program says we have 5 millers and 4 bakers,etc.it doesn't group all the food proccessors into 1. it can't figure that all bakers are bakers it lists them separately.

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2017, 05:57:42 PM »
@brads3

The game put all the bakers together as one baker if profession _baker is used in the code.

It was a oversight by @Discrepancy that he had DS in front of it and that's why there where two bakers and millers in Nilla's game.

It works the same with raw Materials. If the names are the same the game will just use one.
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Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »
Here is my village kitchen set up.
In front you can see that I have 2 food stalls (to gather the ingredients that I need)
And behind it are some beehives from Kid's Work Place mod
To the front, right, is Necora's hospital and further right is the housing for the workers in there.
I have also included a Food Wagon, and 2 of Red's horses in there.

The red markouts, are terraforming, the whole area was overgrown with trees I couldn't get a clear shot of any of the buildings and I had to clear it all out. :)

This was on a map pre-Embx markets :)
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Offline brads3

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2017, 06:04:47 PM »
tell the game that not me EMBX.lol. maybe the game can't translate languages right. maybe it translates as it prints to the screen not before.5 different languages=5tags. who knows

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2017, 07:10:50 PM »
Brads

The C++ source code have functions and procedures where modders can tie into. I always call them hooks.

So if a modder makes a profession Baker the game compiles it into profession _baker.

All the string tables, sprite sheets, etc. are linked to the profession _baker object.

That is why the game can use different languages if the modders have the string tables available.

So the game sees a baker and find all the files attached to it like the string tables, what icon to load and so on.
If it find another baker from another Mod it uses the bakers stringtables, spritesheets etc. from the mod what is highest in the Modlist as long as the compiled object have the same name.

If you look at Nilla's screenshot you see the two bakers have each their own Icon, they also will have their own text, etc.

profession _baker is a object but so is DSprofession _baker or profession _EBbaker but because the names are different the game will load them all separate and so we'll see two or even three bakers as the object names are not the same.

That is why we modders try to be as compatible as possible and use the same names.

That is it about in a nutshell :)
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2017, 03:47:35 AM »
That is the dilemma us modders face. Some want high outputs and some want lower outputs.

I'm well aware of that!  :D
That's why I always try to point out, that my comments are my opinion, not more, not less! I just wish, that every modder had some kind of "policy" some kind of "rule of thumbs" for him/herself, when it comes to production numbers. Like my "reasonable" range, not necessarily the same as mine. But I can also understand, that it's not easy to get the output you want, even if you have such a "policy".

The issue with same buildings using the same input/output raw materials from different mods will always be tricky to balance.
The building highest in the modlist will 'win' and those numbers are taken if I am not mistaken.

At least I did a test with RedKetchups Water Tower and my Water Well and the values changed to the values which mod was highest in the modlist.
I also did that test with saltworks and Red's saltmine and the values changed to the mods values which was higher in the modlist.

That is the reason RedKetchup have his water as NMWater as the output as the Fountain Mod water output was very high and so to avoid this. CC, Discrepancy, an me use NMWater as well.

Yes, I thought it was like this. I have noticed it in some case, too. But how can the output of water be so different from your buildings, if you all use the same water? Sorry, I don't really have to understand that.  :-\

Fisher:
The Village Fishing Dock use exactly the same production and radius as vanilla. I had a request to possibly make this an upgrade model for higher production, so I am toying with the idea of having a simple dock (with less output) that will upgrade to this for the higher production and to utilise the Fishing Gear resource as a cost.

The Village fisher building actually has a larger radius than the vanilla, if you look at them together. I think it's because you can use more fishermen in it. The same with the other; watersidefisher (1) < bridgefisher(2) < jettyfisher (3) < vanilla fisher (4) < village fisher (5 or 6?).

I'm no fan of upgradable buildings. I've written about it before. It might make some sense in a case like this, with a fisher. At the beginning, you don't need so much fish. You want a cheap, fast to build place, to get food for a few people. Later, you'll need more. You can also afford a more expensive building (material/worktime). It will probably be a good idea to have it on the same spot as the first fisher; an upgrade can make sense. Although it's not much different from demolishing the initial building and make a new. In the case of upgrade, I think, you also need to keep the same area of the footprint. I don't really like, that a small initial fisher should be as big as a late game building. But if you make it upgradeable, please make it possible to build the upgradeable building without the detour of the initial! Itīs not good late game, if you first had to build a small one and immediately have to upgrade it.

Also the water pump; Why not make it possible to use more worker in the existing pump, if you need more water, instead of an upgradeable version? It would also give this more expensive building an advantage over the wells.

Kitchen/Bakery/Acorns:
I wrote earlier about removing all the different variants of Fish, so the kitchen recipes will be changing and I will look into making them produce slightly more food than consuming.
Also, Acorns will be changed slightly. Right now they are worth 0, so have no trade value. But they are an edible/grain. I will change this to edible only, so no nutrition value, it will require to be changed into Gruel or flour and then into Bread or Bannocks to get any nutritious value.

Slightly more food than consuming? Does that mean, that you want the cooked food to be a trading product with increased value?

The idea of taking away the grain-flag from acorn isn't a bad idea. As far as I know acorns are poisonous to eat as they are. They have to be processed somehow; I guess more, than other grain. I didn't realize the trade value 0. I've noticed however that the merchants only bring 1 acorn.

Some professions are not bad though to have a different name because it was and is a skill to be a baker or a miller.

But easy stuff like getting water from a well, or sand from the beach, etc can be done by a regular laborer (Worker).

I agree! That's why I wrote, "thinking two or three times, before introducing a new profession" and not: don't use any new professions.


Offline Abandoned

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2017, 04:57:14 AM »
Regarding professions and profession lists, I agree there are way too many (especially cc that I tried) but they are distinguishable.  I like Red's use of generic worker for odd jobs.  I for one would not like farmers doing anything but tending crop fields and orchards, also would not like to have gatherers overused for other jobs.  DS Banished UI Professions mod is very nice.  I would like it if the listings were in alphabetical order now that there are so many.

Online embx61

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2017, 05:19:51 AM »
Quote
Yes, I thought it was like this. I have noticed it in some case, too. But how can the output of water be so different from your buildings, if you all use the same water? Sorry, I don't really have to understand that. 

Even when our values in the Raw Materials files are the same also the work time and work required must be taken into account. Those are set in the building template file so are not shared between mods I think.

I think I have mine set at
float _workTime = 5.0;
int _workRequired = 20;

The lower the values the faster they work. For lots of stuff in Vanilla it is 4.0 - 10. but for mining I think it is 4.0 - 60.


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Offline Paeng

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
Why not make it possible to use more worker in the existing pump, if you need more water, instead of an upgradeable version?

I always found that to be a good way to "naturally" upgrade buildings, specially larger ones - the infamous huge wood cutter with only one workspace comes to mind... of course there is always the worry that such an item becomes "abused", too overpowered for early game scenarios...  :(

* Although I also have no problem at all with upgradable buildings either... I think they have their place, if used in the right context...  :)
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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2017, 05:43:23 AM »
Even when our values in the Raw Materials files are the same also the work time and work required must be taken into account. Those are set in the building template file so are not shared between mods I think.

I think I have mine set at
float _workTime = 5.0;
int _workRequired = 20;

The lower the values the faster they work. For lots of stuff in Vanilla it is 4.0 - 10. but for mining I think it is 4.0 - 60.

Thank you for explaining. Does int _workRequired have an influence on how much/how fast something is produced or just how fast tools are worn out?

I want to continue my last thread and speak about the balancing of some more buildings I've tested.

Village fisher (DS)
This is the food producer I didn't had as I wrote last. I've built one now, just to test it. It looks great! I have more fish than I need, so I've only put one fisher in it. Despite the huge area (first picture), this one fisher catches less fish, than a small bridge fisher. But of cause, the building will probably give more fish, than the bridge, if it's full. I don't mind the output of 600, that's very reasonable. It's rather the small bridge, that's overpowered.

Now to the other production buildings.

Firewood yard, DS
Both versions are lovely. Perfect size, nice look. I find the vanilla chopper overpowered. This is worse. I haven't checked the production numbers a lot. I'm only using the wood for my houses and I have managed to support a 500 inhabitant town with only 2 of these small yards (in one of them 2 choppers work). They produce a lot; last year the single chopper made 1312, two chopper 1944. If you wanted to export firewood, you could support a large town with a few of them. (Trade profit 3,5 for each wood or 2,5 if the food merchant pays less for wood). In any case, I find it much too much.

Village forester, DS
Like all your buildings @Discrepancy, it looks good. I only have one on this map, and it's not a "perfect circle" but it seems to have vanilla values. The forester is one of the vanilla buildings, that I find, has a too low production.

Village workshops, DS
There are 3 different sizes. I have only built the two smaller. I see no use in this town for a bigger one, where you can use 2 blacksmiths. The smallest is perfect for the start, to make tools, hide coats, fishing-, hunting gear and baskets. It has a low production rate, but that's alright. I use it now from time to time to make hide coats from the leather from my only hunting lodge. The mid size produces more than enough baskets and wagon parts and before I had any coal for better tools, also iron tools. I have no production numbers, since I didn't run it constantly but the production seems quite high, at least for baskets.

Blacksmiths, DS
There are two different blacksmiths, both can use 2 workers, they have a little different size, the village blacksmith can produce iron, steel and hardened tools together with fishing- and hunting gear, the Crest Family Blacksmith the same except hunting gear. I only produce hardened tools. The Village Blacksmith use to produce a bit more, but I think, it's because of the better location. The production between 100 and 140 hardened tools each year for one blacksmith is reasonable.

Tailors, DS
I haven't build a village tailor, yet because I have too little leather and no sheep and I guess that it only makes vanilla clothing. Instead I make canvas coats in the weaving guild. You can put 2 tailors in the building, one produces about 200 coats or 300 canvas each year. I produce coats for my population and I also sell the surplus. The profit is too high; Canvas coats are worth 15, production cost only 4. That gives a profit of more than 2000 for one tailor. An annual production of 200 is also a bit more than a vanilla tailor can produce. 

I've also made some flags. I've also built a flag pole but I don't understand how I can put up a flag. In any case, flags would be a good trade product with a reasonable profit. I produce about 100 flags each year (trade profit 8,6 each). The problem is, that your trading ports doesn't load flags (like a lot of other things, like canvas, wax, candles, the leather products from @embx61......). I have just built a vanilla port, to get rid of all these things, my population can't use.

Candle maker, DS
I think you are using CC values for this building. That makes it quite uninteresting to produce candles, at least as long as there's no use for it in your village. (and even if it was, it would be better to buy candles, than to produce them). The production rate is low, same as the profit (not more than about 50 each year).

Salt and leather production, embx
The buildings look nice. They are quite large but I don't mind. Salt seems to be "flagged" together with coal. In this game it disturbed me a bit. I produce hardened tools and need a lot of coal. I buy some, but the merchants are not always that relable, so I've set the limit to 400 and when the stores get down, my miners start to work. It's a convenient way to play. When I produce salt, I can't do that anymore. It's no big problem and I'm not sure that another "flag" for salt, would be better. It seems to be the logical choice; minerals/ore. I just wanted to tell. Production numbers: salt 240-312, tannery: 50-60, trade profit 300-360, leatherwork: poaches ~130, saddles ~100, trade profit 130/260. Generally the production of ores and minerals are low in Banished, so the salt production is in a reasonable range. You can also use 2 workers, if you need more salt (maybe you could concider to increase it to more, if you really would need a lot). Also the profit for cured leather as an intermediate product, is good. But I find the end product ought to give a better profit. It's for export only, it's an endproduct of a chain, I find an annual profit of 500-1000 reasonable for such products.

Just some comment to the pictures

First picture

This is my town now; year 37, 566 inhabitants, everything under control. You can see, that the output of the large fisher is smaller than the small bridge fisher.

Second picture

Just a small thought. As I said, I build a flag pole to test how flags work (didn't found out how). But I also took a look at the other decorations. It would be nice to have a "ghosted" boat, to be able to be put in a position like I suggest here. You can also see my store; of cause in a settlement like this, a lot of fish!

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2017, 06:41:04 AM »
@Nilla,

thank you for the feedback :)

Yes, Salt is flagged as Minerals and that use the flag CoalFuel with the Limit as Coal.
This is how the modders talked while I was absent with the Black liquid team on how to best use the 10 new limits from Luke so it would be as compatible as possible with different mods.

I agree with most of the flags/limits set and only have some reservations about Industrial Fuel as it only have 1 product attached to it so far, but on the other hand so does Iron, Stone and Logs in vanilla. But there are still two reserved limits what is not in use so far so I am completely fine with how the modders decided to set the Limits/Flags.

So if I change salt to another limit/flag then it screws with most other mods as I believe Kid, RedK, Nicora, BL, Discrepancy, using the same limits/flags as set at the modders meeting and kralyerg made the newlimit Resource files.

Yeah, some of my building can be quite large but I am not into 2x3 buildings, besides markets and small sheds. I have nothing against it but I worked in construction and it is just not real enough for me to live and/or work in a cigar box. LOL and to be honest, but this is of course personal, even with my bigger buildings I hardly fill out a medium or even a small map before I get bored and start another IF I play Banished that is :) . I personally think it is a bit of a trend lately to produce 3x4 or even smaller buildings as people seem to like them. If the trend keep going we probably end up with 1x1 buildings soon. LOL. Again, I have nothing against it but it is not my cup of tea and I would have a hard time creating those buildings because of the small size.

Some can argue it is just a game, and it is, but I try to be as much as possible with some real world scales and this is not a sneer to you as you clearly stated you did not mind the bigger buildings. :) I just explain why I make them my way but I will work on the salt works because it is indeed rather big for what it does. I think the other buildings are not that big (Besides the huge church) but again, that is personal.

I first designed the Salt works so there were open air salt pans (That why it is big) but scrapped it after more then halfway done because saltpans are only mostly used in dry climates with not much rain, and after some more research came with the idea to just use a brine well but was too lazy/bored to start all over with that building as I wanted to release the leatherworks chain what needed the salt.
I will probably use some of the buildings in the salt works and tie them more together to save some space.

As for work_required. kralyerg explained it one time on the forums but cannot find the post but it is how much they use the tool in a shift (work time) So if I understood it right it is 20 times using the tool to get 1 of the 5 done if it is set at 5.0 / 20. or it is the other way around but maybe someone else can chime in if I have that right or not. All I know is that the lower those values the faster they produce. That is why mining in Vanilla take quite some time because I think Luke has it set to 4.0 /60.

Again, thanks for the feedback and I hope you understand why I make the buildings as they are. :)

EDIT: Oops I forgot, I am glad that you like most of the production numbers for salt and leather products. I made it in such a way that uneducated workers would even lose some.
I can increase the end products Pouches and saddles a bit in the next build and allow the Salt works to have another worker or 2.

I also like to add that Banished, without a zoom hack, is already quite dull if it come to zoom in. The smaller the buildings and even less details are seen. I like to add at least some detail to my buildings, like extruding window frames,  posts, so calles gutter boards, and so on and if I make 2x3 buildings it won't show at all in the game because of the small size and are just a waste of poly's and time.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 06:57:53 AM by embx61 »
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Online embx61

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2017, 09:04:10 AM »
I worked on the salt works and decreased the size from 8x9 Including Road to 8x7 Including road.
That is 16 tiles saved.

I upload the newer version some later today if I have redone the AO maps.
I also changed profession from salt worker to just  a worker to save a profession.

Further added 1 more worker so that the salt works can employ up to 3 workers instead of 2 and got rid of the ground texture

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Offline Discrepancy

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2017, 07:40:23 PM »
Okay, I will try to slow the Arch Bridge Fishing Spot down. That is too much fish!

I will also slow the firewood yards down. I did notice this myself but kept forgetting to do so.

I'm not sure if I can speed up the forester. The only way we could get a larger production is by making a new 'DSNaturalResourceTree.rsc' and having the forester replant a faster growing species. But this would still require the old forest to be cut down firstly.

The Weaving Guild / Village Tailor - I did make the changes to slow down the canvas production before. It really is on par with making Wool Coats I think. I honestly think the vanilla tailor production is wrong in the first place. So if I am going to balance it, I think the vanilla production numbers need to change as they are also too profitable.

The decorative flags for the flag poles I didn't manage to get working last update and were causing a CTD. When I pick up DSSV: Production again I will get these working.

The upcoming DS Jetty & Bridge update I have made changes to allow all flags into the jetty trading posts.
I have also changed the boats to being 'ghosted' decorations.

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla, Greilingwood and Bechtelswiev, testing DS-mods and more
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2017, 07:40:38 AM »
@Discrepancy re the Bridge Fishing spot - I find it is very dependant on placement. 
In a spot where there is deeper water, (in the above shot there is at least 3/4 of fishing room) you can get up to that amount of fish - but, you place it over a stream, in the shallows, and a narrow fishing space and it doesn't produce anywhere near that much.

Same as the standard fisherman - it needs to be in the perfect spot to get over 100 per fisherman.

I wouldn't change the numbers up too much as looking at that screenshot, I would say location is everything!!
Currently the Bridge is right out into the lake, there is a huge section of open water, and it's the deeper water there.  Compared to the other fishing building.  (The bottom spot is partly in the shallows, but look how many free fishing tiles there are around it).

I thought given that the fishing spot was a bridge, and a small radius that it wouldn't be affected by location, but for me it really is dependant on it, and I have been known to terraform around it so I could boost the numbers as they were low.

@Nilla what do you get if you place the Bridge over a narrow stream, in a 2 water tile (4 across, 2 water & 2 banks) location, in the shallows?

I don't have Banished booted at the moment, but I can run a comparison over the weekend, if not then, possibly Monday - depends on how much gaming time I get this weekend.  :)
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