Author Topic: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each  (Read 2788 times)

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Offline Nilla

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Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« on: May 24, 2017, 08:24:49 AM »
Finally we have summer! Not in Banished! In life! :) The spring was cold and ugly but now it's almost too warm. I have to go inside to cool down a bit. I will take the opportunity to tell you a little about the game I started yesterday.

I am very impressed of your work; all you diligent modders. How you guys just "spit out" numerous lovely buildings. These pictures of all variations of homes from @kid1293 and @Discrepancy brought me to this idea:

How big can a town be, if you just use each building/construction once?

What part of the game is limiting the growth? I guess there are a several 100 different kind of homes (considering all F-variations), so I guess a town of 1000-2000 inhabitants could be possible. Could it be supplied with food, fuel and other essentials with just one of each production building/unit? I don't know. But I will try to find out.

I guess, that food will be a problem. So I might stretch my rules a bit; after some time allowing one different crop on each field/orchard, not only just one field and one orchard (or a few, there are some different types). I'll prefer this over genuine "cheat mods". But who knows, maybe I will have to reach out for such mods, too.  :-\ :-[

How will I make this practically? I thought of the Mega Mod. It has a lot, but as far as I know not the latest versions of everything and I guess it could be trouble to try to load an upgrade of a mod that it includes. To load every mod, I can think of now from the start, is also not an option to me. I find the megamod quite overwhelming, but this would be even worse. I have decided to start quite simple and add mods along the way. This way, I will always get the latest version, and I hope, that possible conflicts/crashes will appear soon, so I can understand why. I deceded to start with the latest CC mod, I could find; CC Journey. Itīs the biggest and Iīm not sure, how it works, to load it to an existing game. After I felt, I wanted to start Adam and Eve, I also loaded the MiniBuilidngs brom the BL team. Thatīs all for now.

Just for fun Iīm making notes of every building I build. I have 3 lists; Production buildings, Homes, Others. If anyone want to see it, I might add some kind of list, otherwise, Iīll only show you some screenhots from time to time.

Here are the first:

First picture

Year 4; Adam and Eve start; not much to see, just a few mini buildings. I was a bit unsure how it would work because it's a 1.06 version. But the only thing, I've found so far is, that the Mini Trading port doesn't load a few products with new flags, like feathers. But so far, they don't fill my barns. so no real problem.

Second picture

Year 10. I have now built all 6 vanilla houses (and the mini tent for emergencies; nomads, students getting adults before a new house was built). I will start to make "decent tools". The small fuel refinery is one of the loss making buildings, I will avoid in the futere, if I can.

There's a funny thing; "Wild Shepherd", I haven't used before. Does anyone know how it works? I've built one. He found 5 animals (the first was found by laborers as they cleared some land) but then stopped to work. I let it rest for a year or two but it doesn't seem to matter; no more animals found. Will it ever find any again if I wait long enough? I will build a normal gatherer anyway, but it would be nice to know. I have also seen, you can only build it once. What is, if I demolish it and build it somewhere else. Does it work there?

Third picture

Just a small closer picture. If I had known, that no more domesticated animals would be found, I would have built a sheep pen. But now we have cows, not all too productive, but OK.

Online Abandoned

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2017, 08:35:01 AM »
@Nilla good luck with new scenario.  The one successful try of cc I had domestic animal wild shepherd, after a few years that was it, no more.  I converted to gatherer, I would think if you convert it that should not count as the 1 time building a gatherer hut.  :)

Online brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2017, 09:45:06 AM »
hmm looks like you are expanding on the LOWESVILLE theme.welcome to the CC world. what mods do you have?did you check my lists and orders???did you add RED's trader fix,CC compatability 107?? i did have problems with blank tags at the trading posts and townhalls with some mods before i totally overhauled my mod file. i do think the compatability 107 fixes many issues. trade merchants will come but not all will accept all goods.
    the mini refinery has a purpose. you have iron ore not iron. the small refinery and smelter give you the ability to process iron early in game. i am sure you noticed many buildings require higher grade materials to even build. the shpherd is a gatherer for the domesticated animals. those you can find all over the map while clearing. they sell at a good proce.you can also build several animal pens and NECORA's goat pen with them.that 1 hut works the entire map. now is it realistic?? is it too big of a cheat??? the problem some had with it was it can be overpowering. the shepherd and the spawn rate found way more animals than were needed too fast. so the domesticated fix mod was made to override it. NECORA'S forests seemed to grow the animals,after which i opted for the fix mod. i was like you getting only a few here and there before that. and i did not use the shepherd hut,figuring it was more realistic to find them on accident while expanding.
     did you use the "no wild duck"mod?? in previous versions of CC, the hunters would find ducks more than deer.hence you would not have leather for coats. it may have been adjusted in this version though.the other thing people got annoyed by the ducks quacking too. the ducks flying all over can slow down graphics and computeres also.
    the mini TH by iitself can bring nomads. if you had the tropical greenhouse it could use the bonemeal.survival coats use feathers.
      now that you stole my idea,i guess i should tell you something i realized with LOWESVILLE. there are so many forest parts with the orchard forests,it will take planning. if you intend to build every forester,you need to get to the outside edge of the map y using the smaller foresters and then place the larger foresters and orchard foresters. otherwise,you will not have enough room. and that is on a CC very large map by the way. not telling you how to play,just advice based on what i have seen.
       i personally prefer the CC and add mods instead of the megamod.  i feel it gives players more control over the mod order and how the mods work. i guess by now there has been enough time and tests and versions to fix most bugs. still from time to time they find more. mostly,the problems seem to be due to the limit flag changes now. i was concerned that by shoving so many mods into 1 ,something had to break.
       i am surprised you chose the A&E start.  i can't use it by giving up the pine forest and NAT DIV mod. i even tried a individual A&E start option mod.when the modders get caught up, there has been a suggestion to try a pair of A&E's for start.
       you shouldn't have problems with food. there are plenty of seed types. if you build 1 field for each you can build fields for quite a while before that needs to be thought about. the orchard foresters do not require seeds either. they build like any forester. good luck with it NILLA.

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2017, 12:12:49 PM »
hmm looks like you are expanding on the LOWESVILLE theme.welcome to the CC world. what mods do you have?did you check my lists and orders???did you add RED's trader fix,CC compatability 107?? i did have problems with blank tags at the trading posts and townhalls with some mods before i totally overhauled my mod file. i do think the compatability 107 fixes many issues. trade merchants will come but not all will accept all goods.

Sorry, I do write long but if you read carefully, you can see that I only have CC journey and the Minimod loaded......... so far. I thought the trade fix only fixed that the game didn't crash, if you're playing a 1.06 game and get goods with new flags. You mean it also makes that 1.06 ports can load goods with new flags?  So far it doesn't bother me at all, that the mini port can't load a few goods. The way it is, is rather pleasant. Not all of these (to me  :-[) stupid CC merchants doesnīt arrive eaither.

    the mini refinery has a purpose. you have iron ore not iron. the small refinery and smelter give you the ability to process iron early in game.
I know. I just want to avoid it by buying iron or/and furnace fuel insted. You need 25 logs (worth 2) to produce 10 furnace fuel (wort 3): input 50; output 30. I strongly dislike buildings that destroys value, like the fuel refinery and I will only run this if I can't buy enough iron or furnace fuel. Edit: I just noticed that I was too kind to this building; it needs 25 firewood worth 4 to produce 10 furnace fuel. So the loss isnīt  only 2 for each FF but 7! (You can use charcoal and reduce the loss to 4,5)

the shpherd is a gatherer for the domesticated animals. those you can find all over the map while clearing. they sell at a good proce.you can also build several animal pens and NECORA's goat pen with them.that 1 hut works the entire map. now is it realistic?? is it too big of a cheat??? the problem some had with it was it can be overpowering. the shepherd and the spawn rate found way more animals than were needed too fast. so the domesticated fix mod was made to override it. NECORA'S forests seemed to grow the animals,after which i opted for the fix mod. i was like you getting only a few here and there before that. and i did not use the shepherd hut,figuring it was more realistic to find them on accident while expanding.

I don't find it overpowered at all. 5 animals (OK, each worth 250) in quite a short time, then nothing for years. And since you say, it works the whole map, it doesn't help if you demolish and rebuild it. Good to know, in this case, I will hope for more luck to find another 2 animals for my sheep pen by cleaning land.

     did you use the "no wild duck"mod?? in previous versions of CC, the hunters would find ducks more than deer.hence you would not have leather for coats. it may have been adjusted in this version though.the other thing people got annoyed by the ducks quacking too. the ducks flying all over can slow down graphics and computeres also.

I don't mind the ducks. I have seen, that some years there are almost as much duck meat as venison but mostly it's not that much. The quacking doesn't bother me either. I have these sounds  set very low and I often listen to music by playing anyway and hear nothing of that kind. If this will be a big town and the lags starts, I will remember this and maybe turn them out, but so far I rather like the ducks.
 
 
      now that you stole my idea,i guess i should tell you something i realized with LOWESVILLE. there are so many forest parts with the orchard forests,it will take planning. if you intend to build every forester,you need to get to the outside edge of the map y using the smaller foresters and then place the larger foresters and orchard foresters. otherwise,you will not have enough room. and that is on a CC very large map by the way. not telling you how to play,just advice based on what i have seen.

I didn't really steel your idea, but I can admit I might have got inspired by your LOWESVILLE. ;) I have no intention to build every possible building. I will not build more than one of each building, that's the difference. And the advice is good. I will probably build a lot of those forests. I'm glad to take your advices, especially on CC matters, where I don't have much experience.
   
     
       i am surprised you chose the A&E start.  i can't use it by giving up the pine forest and NAT DIV mod. i even tried a individual A&E start option mod.when the modders get caught up, there has been a suggestion to try a pair of A&E's for start.

I don't understand what you mean.  Can't this start be played together with the pine forest? ???
 
     
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 12:36:15 PM by Nilla »

Online brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2017, 01:54:48 PM »
yep,i did figure that you only had CC and the mini. i didn't think you added the helper mods. i may be off but my thinking was a merchant bringing "other" items was causing the error. "other" being 1.06 to a 1.07 game or as you said a 1.07 item to a 1.06 game. reason i figure that way is a 1.06 merchant,say from the mini-mod, could bring something under the old flag and cause the game to be confused since the item when it gets to the TP is flagged 1.07. i have never seen the error and i did hold 1.06 mods til after LOWESVILLE.i did attempt RED's fix to that game and loaded a save 2 seasons back.still i had a crash. i think the CC compatability 1.07 mod does help correct these issues. combined with the trade fix i see no blank tags and no double tags in testing i have done. i debugged and threw all traders on a map and a few townhalls. the mod added causes no problems so i leave them in,better safe than sorry.
      i admit i don't watch numbers as much as you. i play different. the big thing with CC is you need so many different goods and end up with too much of many items to produce some specific items. hopefully with watching the production numbers,you can adjust the limits and keep things under control more.the mini refinery was designed to produce less efficiently than the larger 1. i am plannig to feed it with NECORA's charcoal.  that way i am not using the valued logs either. i get the pine stuff for free,so only time is invested in the charcoal. different way of playing.
      i agree the merchants can be goofy. they will bring odd items to the mini trading post but that post also won't take much of the CC items.he is rather picky.
     i have seen starts similar to yours with the domesticated animals.i had a discussion with NECORA. he swears his forests don't plant and grow animals.it was after i planted a maple forest and a few years went by that i had a huge jump in domesticated animals. hopefully that was adjusted in the new versions without the domestic fix. the ducks should have been fixed by now. if you have enough leather i wouldn't be concerned. i leave the fix mods in since they don't cause problems.
        the NAT DIV and pine forests have to be played on vanilla settings. the starts will look significantly different on other starts.with those mods enabled and a A&E start you wouldn't have thatch growing,the forests would be thicker, and you will lose many of the items that the pine adds. you could plant the pine forests and get those items. i think you could grow thatch in a meadow using the thatch hut. i like having the meadows so i play with vanilla starts now. thatch is needed by so many buildings that without being able to collect it,it would change game play too.it does mean we must struggle to keep logs though.
       what else do you want to know? glad to help if i can. you have what 30 forests or is it 50? i did count them and calculated the max radius spacing.to leave as much room to build a town, i did figure most had to be on the outer edge of the map. it might have been figured at half circles,with half being over the mountains too.i start with mild climates which produces similar to the mid-atlantic states. i don't think i would have had luck with oranges or coffee.

Offline QueryEverything

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2017, 05:42:15 PM »
@Nilla this looks like a great idea.
I was wondering, with the food production, what if you say had it in the beginning as 1 set layout (pastures, fields & plantations etc), so rather 1 11x7 (or what you use as a normal size for your maps), have a dedicated space so:
20 x 20, and in that you may have 4 fields and you grow your 2 seeds over the 4, then 2 pastures (2x20x10), and you fill those 2 with your starting herd - until you get more seeds and more beasts in.

I would suggest that 1 field of each seed, and 1 pasture of each animal wouldn't be a cheat at all - after all, you are testing the limits of each building, so why not of each new food resource? 

But, this journey I will definitely be following :) 
~ QE, I query because I like learning new things. 

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Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2017, 10:45:28 AM »
We'll see @brads3, there will be questions along the way. You can be sure on that, although at the moment I have no special question.

To the numbers: I will keep an eye on them and handle it with serenity: Avoid unprofitable buildings, as much as I can, and shamelessly use the overpowered! ;)

@QueryEverything; I'm not sure, how I will handle the fields, orchards and pastures long term. As long as I can, I will only use one of each kind; first small, later when I need more food, maximum size. I don't plan that much in advance and I don't have any usual size of anything. It's always different from one game to another, also in the same game from one area to another. I wish I could plan a little more. My towns doesn't look very good. This one looks terrible with all the buildings just thrown out. But since I can't build many markets, barns and storage, I have to build dense and i don't have the "eyes" of making it in a pleasant way.

First picture

Just a few more years; year 15. A lot of new buildings. I have moved the mini forester/gatherer/hunter a bit south, just to have space for some more suitable producers around the big general stockpile. Somewhere in the middle, you can see the very opposite to the fuelrefinery; the CC stacks burner. It's one of the most overpowered buildings I know of; making a lot of fuel from very little logs. I will use it in this game without shame!

Second picture

I don't like hi-jacking @Discrepancy's town house thread with discussions about the long inventory and profession lists. I made this screenshot, just for you @elemental, since you wanted to hear arguments, why I don't like the endless long inventory, and profession lists.

I don't even bother to open the full profession list. It takes away too much of the screen. 1/2 or 1/3 of the professions would be enough for me. That size can be kept open and useful.

This is (still) a very small game, not much more, than you can see on the pictures. As you might understand, I'm not a person, who collect different food, material.... just for the sake of diversity. Still, look at the inventory list: more than one "page". I'm sure it will get much worse, as the game continues. In 10 years there will be 2 full pages. I will not be able to make much to prevent this.

Why does this disturbs me? (Or if I'm honest, it doesn't really disturbs me, but I would prefere it to be shorter, simpler. I don't need 100 different vegetables. 10 (or maybe 20 at the most) basics and a few processed variations would be enough for me.) I'll tell you 3 reasons why:

-I like to control my games. I like to plan my production. I like to know, if I have enough rawmaterial for the things I want to produce. The small menu for general statistics isn't good enough for that (except in a few cases). I don't only want to know, that I have textiles in my store, I want to take a short peep in the inventory, to see if I have wool and leather enough to produce warm coats, or if I have to close or change the production. I don't want to search in a three pages long inventory for this.

-I like to give my Bannis a good diet. For this purpose, I like to see how much food of each category, there is in my stores, to be able to react and build more producers of a certain category; in advance before the health gets bad. That's why I normally sort the list by quantity and not alphabetically. It's easier to take a fast look at the important food categories, if there arenīt too many of them.

-I dislike the "firewood economy" (= support a whole settlement with producing and exporting one single/a few very profitable products), but i like to trade. I like to produce a surplus of things my Bannies need and export what's too much and I like to see fast, if I can put more or less of the possible products into the ports, without searching in these long lists.

But here we are with this large variety. Many people like it that way and I can live with it. Many of the modders who are active on this page also have about the same philosophy, about introducing new products and professions: Giving something more to the game, than just diversity. So it's easy to choose some mods, that fit a playstyle like mine. That's why I belong to the inventories on this page. :) ;)


Online brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2017, 12:32:41 PM »
only 1 of each?? that will be challenging. you are more limited than i would be,i have more mods. the colonial house set will give you a nice town look though. with the slower population growth mods,you can take time every few years to decorate and add flowers,benches,etc.
     i agree with the professions list. your should be mostly alphabtical. mine is a mess with the way it adds the mod jobs to it.i wish it was laborer,builders,and then a group of food workers,and so on. i like to keep 1 food worker per 5 bannies.shops i turn on and when they run out of material they can be laborers and stock their houses.
    i understand the inventory discussions quite well. this is why you see me flip between by quantity and alphabetical. i need to see what i have surplus of to process or trade.but i need to pick out those textiles also.
   i am glad to see you play CC. your play style is different than mineyou trade lots more than me.i try to build self-supporting towns.i hope you see something so i can learn from it.

Offline Necora

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2017, 02:20:36 PM »
Hi @Nilla seeing as though you pointed the discussion to here from DS's thread, I wouldn't mind talking about value and trade. If this isn't the appropriate place, tell me and I'll delete this post.

So I understand your view on buildings not running at a trade loss, i.e. never producing less than what you start with. However, I personally think that in some instances a trade value loss is very applicable. I wanted to get your opinion on if you have ever considered the non-trade value of a product? I'll use an example of home wares to explain what I mean.

Home wares - a requirement for advanced CC housing. You said the following...

Quote
Now to homeware: It's a good thought, that the Banns need some items in their houses. But in this game, they don't care about it. They are not happier, more productive or in any way better off with these items. It has no impact of the gameplay. I can accept, how it's made in CC: It's a way to make all these goods useful: If a player want to give his Bannies fancy houses, he has to produce (or buy) these things. But since it has very little impact on the gameplay, I don't like it to be "standard". If you like it that way: play CC.

However, I feel you are looking at this from a pure trade value point of view, because advanced buildings do have the effects above you say they do not. The value of home wares is not just the trade value of the pieces used to make it, but also the wider value of being able to construct a more advanced home. Advanced homes allow for more children, have far lower heating requirements, and larger storage. This means less trips to the market/storage barns/fuel piles to fill the home, and more time working or spending idling/visiting church/studying in school. These factors positively impact happiness and health, and ultimately increase productivity. I think you will find that the over all health, happiness, and productivity of a town full of high end houses is far greater than that of wooden houses.

So you are correct in saying it does not directly impact these traits of the game, as in a Bannie does not consume it and instantly be happy, but, it does impact these traits in the wider/longer term. Advanced building requirements do have a longer term impact on game play and bannie well being. So, as these advanced items do provide a longer benefit in a lot of areas of the game, is it such a bad thing if the trade value is a loss?

Now I will counter this point and accept that some of the recipes for home wares and building supplies do incur a rather dramatic loss, and this should be corrected IMO, however a slight loss or at least no gain isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the wider implications of the goods.

The main reason I think of this is because I find Banished an incredibly front loaded game, i.e. primary production is high (I always end up with copious amounts of food which never perishes (that would be fantastic)) and there is very little to actually do with these items apart from building stuff and making more advanced items which there is even less to do with. It is a dilemma I come across constantly when developing mods and asking, 'Do I really need to introduce this item?'. Also, there is nothing we can trade for that we can't produce ourselves, and there is no ultimate goal apart from filling the map. It would be real nice if there were some trade only items, I guess CC luxury items (chocolate, coffee, etc.) that you can only access via trade, have a large happiness/health boost, and are very expensive to buy, so that some of the excess advanced items are more useful apart from just buildings. Or some very expensive things that are needed to build wonders or something. I'm getting side tracked and I think I forgot my point...

Online brads3

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 03:23:26 PM »
NECORA,you do make a valid argument.the biggest problem is as you stated. the game was never ment to work as we are using it. we need several things fixed for those extra items to really make sence.  happiness doesn't matter enough to the game play.if it influenced workers more that would give more reason to develop towns differently. many hate making items just to trade them away.we feel like we are slaves to a unseen king or something by doing that.it really doesn't make sence to struggle and produce nice stuff to basically give it away for a piece of bread and some beans. if there was a way for bannies to use these items that again would change the game. i have ideas to "force" the bannies to use items, but i don't think they are practicle nor would they be accepted by other players. the other thing that would help the situation is if the inventory was sorted differently. it has 2 settings by amount or alphabetically. if it was by category it would help. a group of the textiles,building materials,foods,etc. the way it is now it takes time to scroll thru it to figure out what you have in stock.the more items we make the longer that list is. this affects the TH and TP but also individual markets and barns.
    i play different than NILLA. my candles for instance don't add value before i trade them by her math. i look at it as the beeswax is free,by using a CC beekeeper. so all i have invested is 1 laborer and his time.plus i figure the bannies can see at night  by making the candles. not that we have night either really.
    there is a time for both ideas and versions of the game. biggest problem i see with the higher end housing is by the time you can produce all the stuff it takes to build many of those, you have workers and shops all over the map. a large town can not be micro-managed as a small 1. i end up with small amounts of many many different items scattered all over the place. with the new flag limits we may have more controls now and can come up with ideas to help some of the issues. i think we still will wish for more though. we can not change the TP or TH menus. and we have yet to understand the happiness meter and use it .hopefully LIKE will send us more help or ideas.

Online elemental

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 03:41:04 PM »
Very interesting points, @Necora. Especially regarding CC homewares and advanced houses.

You say there is no ultimate goal apart from filling the map, and that's true in one sense, but the original game was more about survival than anything else. Not that I play vanilla. I just don't like it. Modding has changed the game to have more of a city-building focus, and that suits me just fine. The last few days I have been playing with your decorative trees mod. They are so much nicer in game than what I saw in the screenshots.  :)  I get more enjoyment out of simple decorative items than anything else, yet some will dismiss them as a waste of space.

So for me, the goal of the game isn't the destination, it's the journey itself. I want my villagers to be happy, and for me that means more than a balanced diet and living as close to work as is physically possible. They get spoiled with tree-lined roads and cake and other goodies even if there is no real incentive in the game to do so.



Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 06:40:30 AM »
A lot of things to answer.

@RedKetchup; the mini-profession menu is a part of CC.

@brads3, I'm not sure, that I trade so much more than you do. It might have that impression, partly because I've been playing the North on harsh a lot. And if you do, you more or less have to trade, if you want a healthy population, since it makes no sense to farm in that cold climate. In this game, I more trade away things I can't use or have too much of and only take space away in my few barns, than trade for any goods. But I buy some building materials and later I will try to trade for food, but I'm not sure yet, what I can produce to sell.

And to the candles; I just built a candle maker, not to trade away the candles, just to produce a few, to be able to upgrade my stone cutter, some time. After I've produced enough candles, I will close it and sell the beeswax. I don't see it "for free". It's wort something to trade away. An educated worker makes a very small profit (each candle 0,5 trade unit and the production isn't high, with uneducated it's even a loss and you would get more, if you sell the wax). I can understand the thought; "I want my people to be able to see in the dark, so I make candles" and I would have liked, if more than the basic needs for food and fuel, would have an impact on the gameplay. But as long as it doesn't, I guess, I have too little imagination for that; too much of square head engineering thinking!

@Necora; Maybe we should start another thread with the name "Banished Philosophy" to have these discussions. ;) But I don't mind having it here. I felt it was OK, to discuss building supply in that house thread from DS but as @elemental wanted some answers, to why I don't like the large menus, I thought I'll better move it here, especially as I built my argumentation on a screenshot from this actual game.

When I made the comment on the homeware, I didn't thought of production economy at all. It's no secret, how I feel about "bad" balanced buildings (loss maker as well as "prodcutionbooster"), so I guess, it's not far fetched to misunderstand what I wrote. And I did concider the better fuel economy and larger stores. I did write "little impact" not "no impact".  ;) But I'm afraid, you are wrong, when you say, that all these things, they can do instead, have an impact on the happiness. I wish it had, but unfortunately, most of these things, that are said to make people happy, doesn't work. In a normal game, I know of just one thing, that makes people unhappy; death of a family member and two things, that works against it; graveyards for adults and for a child/student who loses a parent; the possibility to move out and found a new family early. So no, if a late game settlement with large expensive buildings is happier and healtier, it's due to other things, than the homes. (Fuel might be a problem in a large settlement, if you only have wooden houses, so I can agree a little on that point!)

Of cause, I can see that things have a "non trade value". That it can be just pleasing, to build areas with large expensive houses or a big cathedral, even if it has no impact on the gameplay. The same, if you have a prosperous settlement and are able to provide your population with a variety of expensive processed food and luxury goods, even if they would be as happy and healthy with just fish, corn, potatoes and apples.

What I do dislike, is when these big houses or the cathedral would cost the settlement a lot less, if you trade for the building material/products, instead of make them yourself. I don't need every thing to be made with profit, not everything have to be a "good" trading product. But in such a case, it shouldn't be possible to order these things from the merchants "to a bargain".

I went on with this game a little yesterday but I see, now I made no screenshots. I'll add some the next time.


Online elemental

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 04:11:27 PM »

What I do dislike, is when these big houses or the cathedral would cost the settlement a lot less, if you trade for the building material/products, instead of make them yourself. I don't need every thing to be made with profit, not everything have to be a "good" trading product. But in such a case, it shouldn't be possible to order these things from the merchants "to a bargain".


Personally I think many buildings are too cheap to build - or at the very least they should require more work. But that's just my opinion. Somewhere you have to draw a line between real life and the way the game works.

In real life it most definitely can be cheaper/easier to import or buy something than to make it or grow it yourself. Economy of scale. But again Banished is a game, not real life. Balancing costs is tricky, especially when so many different modders (and players) have different ideas on what they think is right.

Back to your explanation about not wanting unnecessary items... sorry but I just don't understand your reasoning. No offense intended. Let's say someone made a bakery mod with 30 different recipes. One of them is plain old bread that we already have in the game from at least 3 mods that I can think of. The other 29 are brand new bakery items. None of those items will appear in barns or in your town hall list unless you make them or buy them. If you don't need them and you don't want them then you don't have to make them. So I don't see how they can negatively impact your game if you don't make them. They will show up on trade boats but you can control what traders bring so that isn't a big problem either. Maybe I am missing something. Again, no offense intended.

Offline Tom Sawyer

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2017, 04:13:10 AM »
@elemental. You are asking why not to add unnecessary things to the game and want to hear the reasons. But is not the logical question always "why" and not "why not"? Or better to say "what for". What for to add 29 additional bakery items in your example? If you have a good answer for that then it is not unnecessary anymore and you can talk about pro and contra of it. If not then there is no reason to add it. ;D

Reasons to not add unnecessary items are e.g.
- it costs time to make it by modders
- it costs space and makes the pkm bigger
- it increases loading time of the game
- it's a source of bugs and conflicts
- it displaces necessary items in game
- it needs actions in game to keep it away from the game
- it creates confusing production menus

Offline Nilla

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Re: Nilla-Osborona; only one of each
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2017, 04:41:04 AM »
I have no trouble with hijacking, @Discrepancy! The only thing, that might be bad in this case, is if someone is interested in, how such a menu is made, but never read my blog, would miss it. You know, thinking "That old hag again, writing about all these numbers in bad English, who care?" ;) But since it's mainly addressed to Red, and it seeems like he takes a look at most everything written on this page, it will work! By the way, an excellent idea @RedKetchup! This mini menu is better than the huge one, but your suggestion with a few common professions would be better! :)

Personally I think many buildings are too cheap to build - or at the very least they should require more work. But that's just my opinion.

Believe it or not, @elemental, I totally agree! ;)

In real life it most definitely can be cheaper/easier to import or buy something than to make it or grow it yourself. Economy of scale. But again Banished is a game, not real life. Balancing costs is tricky, especially when so many different modders (and players) have different ideas on what they think is right.

What you say is true in our globalized world today but I think you forget, that if we want to set a time period for a "Banished society" it's rather before than after the industrial revolution. I can even remember in my childhood (I'm not the youngest but it was definitely a long time later ;) ) imported goods; oranges, banans, "off season" vegetables, toys..... were exclusive things. But again I agree, Banished is a game and I do realize, how hard balancing is. But that will not stop me from pointing out, when I find something unbalanced. I know very well, that it's only my opinion, that other people think different and I never demand anything, to be changed to my liking!

Back to your explanation about not wanting unnecessary items... sorry but I just don't understand your reasoning. No offense intended. Let's say someone made a bakery mod with 30 different recipes. One of them is plain old bread that we already have in the game from at least 3 mods that I can think of. The other 29 are brand new bakery items. None of those items will appear in barns or in your town hall list unless you make them or buy them. If you don't need them and you don't want them then you don't have to make them. So I don't see how they can negatively impact your game if you don't make them. They will show up on trade boats but you can control what traders bring so that isn't a big problem either. Maybe I am missing something. Again, no offense intended.

In one way you are right, @Discrepancy these 29 (or rather 27; I might use more than one of the recipes ;) ) wouldn't appear in my inventory. In fact, I would probably not even build such a bakery or if I can avoid it, not load a mod with such a bakery. As you say; there are plenty of very nice bakeries out there. I don't always order things. If I don't need something special, why would I? But if I for some reason would load a mod that includes your special bakery, the merchants would most likely "harass" me with a lot of pastry, I probably don't want. It's not a big thing, but I would prefere it simple.

But if you can't understand me, I can certainly not understand you: Why on earth do you want 30 different bakery products? I can understand, if people want to process more or less every possible raw material. I guess it's possible to make 30 different recipes for a bakery. But why give them 30 different names? Why not "bread", with a few different recipes, "cake" with a few more and maybe one or two more separate products? I don't need plum cake, apple cake, walnut cake, peacan cake......... a simple "cake" would fit for all; take less space in the inventories and by the merchants. No offense! (or maybe just a little ;) )

I just saw what @Tom Sawyer wrote, while I wrote this. I can almost delete my words and agree, but since it's already done, I may as well post it!